Reverend Kosho just said that he thought that the meetings would be informal and he said something he was speaking about differences not separation Yeah, difference isn't separation. Like in the Sandokai, there's unity and there's difference, but it doesn't say the difference of unity and difference. And it doesn't say... But there is a difference between unity and difference. But there is a separation between unity and difference, right?

[01:02]

And it doesn't say there's separation in difference. Of course there's no separation in unity. Everybody knows that. But people don't seem to understand that there's no separation between unity and separation, unity and difference, and there's no separation in difference. So what we... But it's hard to realize that there's unity in difference. It's hard to understand. Like when we're chanting, people have a hard time understanding that there's not separation in the difference. People feel like there's difference, which is correct, but they feel like there's separation in the difference, and then they want to be someplace else. Not all of them, but most of them.

[02:09]

Because it's painful to experience separation in difference. I think it is anyway. Something that is different in sound than what you're chanting. And I could feel I want to get out of here because it's so unpleasant. You could feel what? That I want to get away because it's so unpleasant. When you're chanting one way and I'm chanting another way, can you feel the separation in those two ways? Well, I think I'll probably feel separate, not included. Yeah, so then you feel pain, and you'd like me either to be like you, so we wouldn't have that difference, and then maybe if we didn't have the difference, we wouldn't have separation. We need to feel that way. If we all get together somehow, particularly get together on my way of doing things, then there would be no difference, and then maybe we wouldn't feel the separation.

[03:19]

In fact, when there's no difference, you do get a little break from separation, which is nice. Yes, yes? So how would you define oppression then and in terms of experiencing and celebrating difference and the pain that comes up with difference in terms of oppression? How would I define oppression? How would you define oppression? Yeah. One, because we, you know, we can often talk about lots of difference here. There's lots of difference at Zen Center. We're talking about diversity in many different ways. So you can apply it here in service to chanting. Yeah. And you can apply it to color, sexuality, many different things. Yeah. Okay, so it's often, you know, I think we're very diverse in many ways already. is the other aspect which comes with, like you said, if you would just, for example, chant my way, then there wouldn't be a problem.

[04:30]

And so that's where maybe oppression comes in. If everyone chanted my way or everyone was of this color or this set throughout, how using the pain comes in all of us in some way trying to have the other conform. No, no. Pain comes before that. Well, that's a response. Trying to get people to conform is a... I think that some people... It arises in our mind that we think that would reduce or eliminate the pain we feel from feeling separate from those who are different. And then to act on that... But even in the mind, when you think that way, it's a little oppressive. But when we physically and verbally express something to try to get either ourselves to join or get other people to join, that could be kind of an oppression.

[05:35]

But in politics, to try to get every party, you know, everybody in the country to the same party, that's like dictatorship, right? For everybody in a religion to have the same understanding of what we're doing, that would eliminate the... as a way to eliminate the pain of separation, the pain of feeling separate. That would be oppression. Oppression, occultism, dictatorship, totalitarian, right? Yeah, right. And that can happen at a Zen monastery. In fact, Everybody's in a zendo. I do feel kind of good. It's kind of nice. And they're all sitting the same way. It's kind of nice everybody is the same. To see the sameness. Of course, there's still difference, but to sort of see the sameness, it's kind of a relief from a certain kind of sense of separation.

[06:43]

And I would agree that to try to get people to all be the same, there could be oppression. which amplifies, actually, the sense of separation. And as you also know, there's some groups like, you know, Nazi Germany or Communist Russia, when everybody is the same, and then that constellates the song of it. And then they want to eliminate them. And there was this place called Rajneeshpuram, I think, up in Oregon. And they had a very strong thing there. I think it really felt good to be up there. I know people who went to visit.

[07:43]

They loved their teacher and they loved his Rolls Royces. I think they kind of liked his Rolls Royces. He had a Heeney, I think. But, you know, you can't keep the difference down. So then they noticed, oh, there's a town nearby and they're different and they're separate. So they started poisoning the water in the town. So we can't get away from separation. When we do, we feel good, because then we get away from separation. And doing that creates, to make difference, to get through, avoid the pain of separation, creates a shadow. one, etc., and then we don't oppress them, we try to kill them or eliminate them.

[08:47]

Then, of course, it starts all over. And so, as I was saying earlier, there is a tendency, there are some people who have problems, and if we just get rid of them, then who's next? Gradually we just have to keep always finding somebody to eliminate, to get rid of our, to have no problems. And finally it would be down to each one of us all by ourselves. So how do we as a Sangha then address that tendency to be one way or the other? And we can talk on an individual basis, you know, my practice is, but to, on a larger basis, really address it as a group, in the midst of people saying, no, that's not happening, What's not happening? Well, oftentimes when it's brought up, this is a problem, you know, there's often a downplay that there's actually a problem there. Okay. You know, different ways it's happening here around racism, homophobia, other ways, other, you know, conflicts and so on, that kind of like it's not happening, which is usually happening from those who are, you know,

[10:01]

been around longer, have a certain status in the community per se, or certain levels of power, authority, or just majority, can also say, that's not really happening. So it's a sense of saying, difference isn't here, we're not going to see it, and therefore don't speak about it. And yet, in that process, it's been pushed out. And it's hard to talk about it. Do you feel that sometimes there's a denial of difference? There could be a denial of difference. What would be, I think, more crucial is that there would be denial that there's a tendency to try to eliminate difference. I think about... Yeah. I think the second one you did. Well, one would be, someone would say, there's no difference. Like, we all follow the schedule the same way, someone would say. That's probably . But then, that we would try to eliminate the difference.

[11:04]

First, there is no difference. Second, there's a difference, but we should eliminate it. Eliminating the difference is more characteristic. Actually, more characteristic a problem are religious institutions. to eliminate the difference. And again, to eliminate the difference for the sake of harmony. And so if you go to Zen monasteries in Japan, for example, Eiji, I think everybody has to sit in full lotus. And if you don't, then why should they do it? People don't have to be male. Officially not. Officially what? Oh, they've changed the official thing? Okay, maybe they changed it. There's no support for it. There's no way to do it because of bad counseling. Officially women are allowed. Officially women are allowed? Okay. Okay. Well, you're wrong.

[12:10]

But the full lotus thing, is that still officially okay? Last I heard. Yeah. So, everybody's supposed to sit in full lotus. Chairs that age. And at Zen Center, in the early days, we didn't go so far as to say everybody had to sit in full lotus. But chairs were... were rarely seen. People were sitting on very high piles of sattvas. And Ssindhira, she actually said to Richard Baker one time, why don't you sit in a chair? Because he was sitting on so many sattvas. You know, that was the beginning of his practice. He finally got down to, you know, one sattva, but when he was first sitting, he was sitting up real high. as high as a chair on like four Zafus or six Zafus. So there's a strong thing in some Zen training situations for everybody to do certain things the same.

[13:16]

There are just pressure for them to do the same in some Zen temples. And that was also the case at this Zen temple. So we have a schedule and there's some pressure for us to do the schedule the same. But if that practice makes a difference, then I think it's unrealistic. Not unrealistic, unhealthy. And then if we would deny that we're trying to do that, When we are, that would be dishonest. That wouldn't be good. So, I think it, you know, I sense that there's some pressure on us to sit cross-legged here and really do look down on people sitting in chairs. There's something about that. If you felt like that and someone was downplaying or, I guess, discounting your observation now, right, then I think You and somebody else stood up for your opinion and let it be listened to.

[14:29]

No, let it be listened to. If it's not being listened to, keep working to get it listened to. I would encourage you to do that. I would encourage you to keep expressing yourself and in the form, perhaps, of saying, you know, I don't feel that I'm being listened to. I feel that I'm being disrespected, discounted, dismissed. I said something the other day and someone said, you said that in a slightly dismissive way. And I was talking about new people the other day in the dining room and somebody said it was patronizing. Those expressions, being able to be made and the person surviving may say something like that about the person in the leadership position.

[15:34]

I think those are signs of health. And if I didn't listen, if I punished a few people who said those things, then I think it would be nice if someone said, you know, they kind of gave you some feedback there, which I guess could be seen as negative, possibly. But anyway, they gave you feedback, and you kind of dismissed it. And then again, if I dismissed it, it would be nice if somebody else came and said, you dismissed that comment. And dismissing goes with a sense of separation. But it's not just a sense of separation, it's being disrespectful of the separation, not liking the separation. It's talking down to it, or perhaps up to it. And then if people comment on that, we can learn to deal with separation perhaps more and more respectfully. Pardon?

[16:36]

Do you mean difference? Well, actually difference, more respectfully, yes. But I actually meant deal with separation. Our feeling of separation. Yeah, our feeling of separation. Difference without separation we often enjoy. Like, again, grandparents do feel very different from their grandchildren. That's what's so entertaining about them, they're really different creatures. And they come in with this really different kind of thing, but you don't feel separate from them. When you feel separate, even towards these beings who you love, feel separate from their difference, you're irritated and dismissive or condescending or whatever. So I think respect difference, yes, But the difference isn't so much... It is possible to respect difference, but what's hard to respect is that stabbing pain that comes with it when you feel separate from the difference.

[17:44]

So somebody comes up to you who's different, okay, hi, different person, and they go... They don't really go... What goes... is you see a separate person. So you're painful and become frightened, and then you just Now, you could say, which would be more direct, is, I'm in pain. Then you might not dismiss them. I feel separate from you, and I'm in pain. That's not dismissive. But oftentimes we aren't aware that we see somebody, we feel pain and fear, and then we condescend or contemptualize. If we could say, with difference, I'm uneasy about it, because I feel separate from it. Because I feel separate from you. I think that would be good. And then if the other person also is doing different from us, is separate from us, and they're in pain, and then they hear us say that, they might not, again, address their pain, and then they might be contemptuous to us.

[18:58]

But once I am in touch with my contempt, which is a derivative of veering off from the pain that I'm feeling because I feel separate, then I'm in a better position to be understanding of other people's contempt, which is a derivative of their pain of feeling separate from me. It isn't like, you know, it's like, oh, you're doing what I easily slip into. I see that. And right now, I'm not being contemptuous, but you are. Therefore, you're different from me. Therefore, I could feel separate from you. And if I'm telling you that I feel pain from being separated from you, rather than slipping away from the pain and talking to you in a condescending, patronizing, dismissive, or contemptuous way, or ridicule. What do you think of that? I'm trying to place it into context.

[20:04]

I'm trying to place it into context. I'm thinking of my experience as a gay man. Situations where I've either been physically, emotionally, verbally abused for being gay. I'm running through my head all the different times. What could I have said? Probably how I would have been met versus imagined in some situation. I was being physically assaulted, obviously I would have to take care of myself first, get out of the situation, but I'm just trying to apply that to my life experiences. I can see the pain, separation, wanting to express. I can say to myself, I feel pain when you put me down, dismiss me, whatever, as a gay man, and they say, well, I feel pain because you're a gay man. That's good. Then you can say, if they say, I feel pain because you are a gay man, that's pretty good.

[21:11]

I don't think that's abusive for somebody to say, I feel pain because you're a gay man. Then you can maybe talk to them about saying, you know, in this painful situation, and they say, yes, I think it's that you feel pain because you feel separate from a gay man. It's that sense of... Because two gay men could be saying that to each other, too, right? I feel pain that you're a gay man. It's not that... In this case, there's not difference, but the gay man could feel separate from the other. It's the separation. But difference often kicks the separation into relief. So if the person would tell you that, I think now we're coming close to where we have some fruitful discussions, if they could say that to you. That's usually pretty advanced, though. Huh? You're right, that is pretty advanced. I'm talking about advanced sharing. And your example was when you're being treated condescendingly or whatever, and that's an important situation.

[22:16]

But I was also talking about... not so much when it's done to me. If you get in touch with how you do it, you're better able to help others who are doing it to you or doing it to others. So I was kind of emphasizing the inner thing, where it comes from, rather than what it's like when you're the victim, the recipient of someone who is not taking care of their pain. that they feel because their mind, their normal mind, creates a sense of this person is separate from you. But again, you know, difference is pretty real. You can't actually get a hold of it, but it's quite real. It's, you know, difference, unity. The unreal thing is the separation. And unreality, if you believe it, hurts. It's the separation that's not true.

[23:18]

And the difference is it kicks us into, sometimes, it kicks us into awareness of separation. But sometimes even until we don't really see much difference, like we don't see difference between like we're both gay men, we don't feel difference in that way, but we do feel like they're two different men. And if two different men feel separate, there's pain there. And if one man is gay and one man is straight, then you have two men who play separate, and then they play separate as men, but they play separate in terms of gay, straight. So then again, you have two different people. Now you're going to be really, maybe more likely to be able to feel that separation, which in some sense is really difficult because it's painful and doubled now. but also auspicious because we're seeing a basic human problem.

[24:18]

The hypothesis is sando-kai. We're seeing sando-split or sando-separation. We're seeing a separation between those. So if someone is actually caught in not just separation but caught in in being impatient with the pain of it, and then in their impatience they're treating us impatiently or harshly or cruelly, that's a very difficult situation for us to deal with our sense of separation with them. The pain of separation plus the pain of them treating us badly. So we've got double pain there. The pain of them treating it bad is not the same as the pain of the separation. But we've got both now. And we have the pain of them being unskillful, which may bother us too. And sharing of, I'm in pain.

[25:24]

And you may feel sometimes that maybe you don't think that's appropriate sometimes. But I'm in pain about feeling separate from you. Or, yeah, we'll do that. Yes? And yes? I think what David was pointing was, and my question, in my mind, that's what's stirring me, is that Discussion in a uniform environment where we pointed to the courage to put in with your own individuality is already different. So already we are trained somehow to give up our personal power and to be afraid of figures.

[26:29]

And to even express, it's a really hard, it really takes a lot of energy to actually be inside of, this is my trick because Kyla is honest, and to actually express that there is some genesis of some philipus that they cut at them it's already a very advanced step it's a what step advanced step not many people would hear that And I think maybe what the question for me is coming up, how can we as the spiritual community as a community and develop awareness and courage, that kind of expression, so that it's safe for people to come forward with what is so important.

[27:33]

that might not be the popular opinion or the, you know, how can we the environment. And I know that we have a leader council and we have , but I'm not sure if it's really functioning very well in my own experience. It's not very clear who is protecting who and who is standing for who. It's kind of a theory that there are new , but they wouldn't take it very necessarily. Excuse me, could I say something? So, I heard you say that part of what I'm suggesting seems rather advanced and perhaps difficult, and I understand it's difficult to say to somebody that I'm feeling separate from you now, and I'm feeling pain from that, and I also feel that you're treating me not well or not respectfully.

[28:39]

That might be an advanced step, especially if you think that not only is it difficult to get in touch with those feelings, but it's difficult then to take the chance of expressing them because there's some danger in that. Is that right? Yeah, what comes to mind is that my life or they might not be of benefit. Like, when you had chosen, there was a case like that, that someone expressed what they said, but it was very clear that the danger was so high that I'll just get smashed. Yeah. And then you point out, like, well, when you're in the leisure, not the refuge, you just do it. When you really get hurt, it's so, so good, it's not of benefit. Okay, I didn't quite follow that. Actually, I was kind of checking to see if I understood what you said, rather than asking you for... I was just trying to see if I got what you said.

[29:42]

Did I get what you said before? Yeah. So then the next thing you said was, is there some way we can make it safer? And then you said something about ear counsel, but I'd like to talk about things before the ear counsel, because that's for when things have broken down. Is it taking care of things so we don't have to go that far? And I would suggest, actually, that the example, two examples I gave of feedback I got was someone saying that I was somewhat dismissive about something, and then someone saying, and that person said that to me in a group, and I think the person said it to me in a group about something I said in that group a few minutes before, And then the other case was when somebody said that they felt like being patronizing, and that was, to me, in the group where I said before, something about how to relate to new people. So that's kind of like, those two examples are kind of like, sort of the best way, because it was in this, everybody could see, you know, people could remember, and there could be other views,

[30:55]

But those two people had the courage to say that. And then how can we encourage people and support people? It's not always tough. You can't say it's totally without danger, though, because I could have attacked both of them in those cases. But if I had, and other people were on board to say, wait a minute, now you're attacking them for giving you feedback, and you asked for it. to not say, oh, that's right, isn't it? And then they could say, well, do you want to apologize? And I could apologize right then. So that doesn't make it 100% safe, because I don't get that point. People say to me, they come to me and they say, I trust that you'll never hurt me. Because I could. I mean, I can hurt you by blinking. I can hurt you by liking somebody else. I could hurt you. But what you can, I think, not exactly trust but understand is that I'm committed, if I hurt you, I'm committed to hang in there with you.

[31:58]

If you're interacting and you fall down, I'm committed to stay there with you and help you get up. I will follow through. I will follow through on this and I will deal with the consequences if I get too rough. That you can hear me say that that is my commitment and hold me to that. But I might hurt you. But you might hurt me too. But I might hurt you by being condescending to someone. That might hurt you very much, even if it's somebody else. But then I welcome you to give me feedback on it. And I welcome other people to support me to do that. so that if you do that and I don't receive it well, that you can also give me feedback on me not receiving it well. This is someone who's sitting in a seat of authority saying that they welcome this and want... they welcome the feedback but to support others who are giving you feedback that they need it.

[33:04]

Maybe they don't. Maybe they do it and it works out fine. They feel received. They find out what they feel. They're able to get it out. They express it. It's received, and that's the way I think it should go. It doesn't, and the authority figure, or not necessarily authority figure, but anybody doesn't receive the feedback. The other people, I think it would be good for them to understand they're invited to assist. They're... What? other people watching, other people in the group, that they can assist. And if they feel like the people need help because they're not receiving each other or respecting each other, they can check, they can say to the person, how do you feel now? I mean, someone said that to you one time. They said, well, how do you feel now? And you said, thank you, I really appreciate that when the person asked you that. That kind of assistance to you interacting with me that we welcome that, right?

[34:06]

Yes, I do personally here in the outside centre in my life and I think the outside is pretty much the norm. I think the difference now that you were describing a very nice I don't know what ideal situation. I think what I'm observing and noticing that we have to teach more teachers. We make you the teacher, we make our teachers the teacher, and all of us to some degree give up our personal power there, and we are very reluctant to question. We are very reluctant to question. And so people might not... Excuse me. You said we are very reluctant to question teachers? Yes. Okay, I'd like to check with other people. I mean, I can see that you may feel reluctant.

[35:11]

I'm not reluctant. Oh, you're not reluctant. You said we are reluctant. I could see myself being reluctant, but I'm more not reluctant. Okay. But you said we are reluctant. So what do you mean by we're reluctant? I was saying in the beginning, that's my observation, my sense is that as a whole body, they're somewhat reluctant. Okay. And so people... Is reluctance like fear? I think it's motivated by fear. Yeah. So there's some fear of questioning authority figures? It's one of the safety of the authority. Yeah. So I think there is some fear. Is there some fear of questioning authority? Definitely. Definitely. Definitely, yeah. So what do we do with the fear of questioning authority? So this just felt like I was hanging on that it's somebody going to agree with me.

[36:19]

And Sonia expressed something that was validating. And often, I think, or sometimes, I don't know, I haven't counted, but my sense is more often than not, the people would not, even they would agree, they would not come forth to support what was a public group. They privately might come and say, oh, that was great, and that actually is my experience in the center, and there will be no change in the organization. Okay, well, again, it seems like the word reluctance is not synonyms. But reluctance often goes with fear. So I think that not everybody's reluctant, for example you, are not reluctant to question authority. Some people, in other words, are afraid to question authority, but go ahead and question it. I think some people question me to do so, but they go ahead and question me.

[37:22]

Other people are afraid to question me and they have reluctance dash they don't do it. So that is part of what's going on in sense. Yes. And so how can we promote questioning authority, period, even when we're afraid? Yes? One thing to David in that question, I think you said, who do we talk to? And it may not be that you could talk to the person in the situation and say, I feel pain. But I think that one of the values of the sangha is we can go to someone we do feel comfortable with and without using any names. They are hurt. Say that we are hurt. So that it's expressed in witness. I find that very healing and may then allow me more and more to begin to try to say something in a situation.

[38:28]

It's just that. I can't remember when I said that, the context of that, because what I would do personally, I'm just saying, for powering, it's going directly to the person. Right. But you said sometimes you wouldn't be able to do that, because it would be too dangerous. Yeah. I thought I could. Yeah. I'm looking. Okay, Marie, did you feel heard what you said? I think I also agree that they are somewhat reluctant to question authority. Again, I would like to use the two words, fear and reluctance. I definitely feel people at Zen Center are afraid to question authority. They're also afraid to question their peers. Yes. They're also afraid to question, you know, the authority figures are also afraid to question people. There's a lot of fear. How come? Do you want me to tell you the answer?

[39:31]

Do you want me to tell you the answer? Do you? Or do you want to wait and find it yourself? No, we understand it's a basic human predicament. We've got that. I'm saying it is a situation that's in it. But you asked, what's the reason? The reason is belief in separation. That's the reason. What I'm asking is, in a spiritual community where we have this wonderful practice and teaching that's basically all in practice, We're not doing so well. And outside, like, it's just outside in a community that it's not unified around one people. It's all going to be unified around our... leading a good life, a spiritual, spiritual, secretive way of looking.

[40:32]

Excuse me, your question's getting too long. What's your question? How come they're doing... How come those people are doing... Because they're more advanced. They're more skillful. We're beginners here. We're not too good at this. This is a remedial situation. They're trying to learn how to get in touch with our basic delusions here. And we're not that good at it. And so now, we are frightened of each other. being frightened, we're reluctant to express ourselves because we're afraid of what the consequences will be. And we know from experience sometimes we're not well received, especially when we speak with some fear. So we've got this problem. So the question is how can we express ourselves even when we feel afraid in relationship to each other? How can we express ourselves in our feelings to each other?

[41:32]

I'd like to know how to promote that. Yes? In Judith, I'm sorry, just to interrupt. Judith did have another question. Okay. So I'm going to make sure that she had... Sonia and Leslie and... Has Judith had another part to her question? She didn't. She said something. Yeah. When... What troubles me is when... I didn't think it was a... First part wasn't a question. I said I had a comment to David and a question for you. I'm sorry. It's okay. when difference is embedded, when inferiority is embedded in difference. So the perception of difference comes right with a feeling of not only are you different, but you are different because of your class, your race, your sexuality, your gender, whatever. And how to I don't really know what the question is, but those are so often.

[42:35]

And I would say, actually, there's not really a difference between inferiority. I don't think so. The difference comes with separation, and separation comes with inferiority. It varies fast. When you see a difference, and if you see a difference and you don't feel separated, you don't feel inferior. Either way. But when you see it, your mind is extremely fast. Difference, separation, pain, condescension. So it seems like difference, inferiority, or difference, superiority. You know, people out here say, difference, superiority, I feel disempowered. Difference, inferiority, I feel condescending without even noticing it. The down and up are ways of dealing with the pain. It's hard to stay level when you're in pain. It's not impossible.

[43:37]

It's hard. That's why we need to protect ourselves from veering away from the pain and getting into looking up to the authority figure and feeling disempowered and then angry about that. So you feel pain from separation, then you feel pain from looking up, then you feel pain from disempowerment, and all that, then you get angry about. Well, how about the other theory? Same way. What is our pain when we're looking down on someone? Well, first of all, you feel the pain of feeling separate from the person, and you try to deal with the pain by making them little. You feel separated, you feel afraid, so then you put them down, make them small. They can't hurt me. I'm powerful. And then that carries into our society, where it gets enacted. Well, it doesn't exactly carry into our society.

[44:38]

At that point, it is in our society. Difference. But again, there doesn't have to be much difference to feel separated, because you can feel different from someone you feel really connected with. Like again, with your children, you can say, this is my child. I don't feel different. And now I feel pain and fear. So I'll make my child little. Then I can control them and that won't be so much. That'll be a way to deal with this pain. The pain that comes from delusion, I'm going to cope with it by looking down on this person or looking up at them. We can identify this stuff. We can find this stuff. And if we can't, others can help us by showing us that I don't know if you missed the pain there, but you are talking condescendingly or patronizingly or dismissively.

[45:39]

But you don't have to say that to the person. You can just point out that they did this, which is a strategy, I think, of dealing with our fear of each other. And again, we are afraid of people we feel separate from. I would say. People who don't believe, we feel separate from and believe. People who don't believe in that are fearless. And then they don't have to put people up and down. They can be in a position of authority, but they don't put people down from that position because of this wisdom that they have, which comes through noticing in meditation moments, noticing that they feel separate, that that's painful, and study that until they get over it, then that's going to take us a long time. In the meantime, we can notice if we're doing something derivative of the pain of separation and elevation

[46:42]

and giving power to somebody else, these are ways of coping with that sense of pain that comes from the sense of separation. That's what I would say. And then how can we, in our society, how can we promote people standing up to authority figures, expressing themselves? Also, Leslie said something about, maybe used the word bodhisattva instead of priest in the meeting the other day, which, you know, I don't know how hard that was for you, but she kind of stood up to me. I thought it was helpful that she stood up. I thought it was a helpful comment in itself. So Leslie did. David did. And there's some other people did in that meeting. Ewan did to support. ...in that situation. I think these are kinds of things we can do which I think help us address the thing quickly in public.

[47:52]

So a lot of people can see that when it's okay, and the people who do it survive, and it isn't that later you can secretly tell them that you thought they did well, but you can see that maybe even that the authority figure appreciates them right at that time. And if the authority doesn't, you can ask authority questions, like, did you appreciate that person's contribution? And see if, like, well, yes, but it was painful, or whatever, you know? Yes, Sonya? Way back when, When you start talking about the unification and separation... Unity. Unity, that's right. And I... No, no. Unity and separation, yes.

[48:53]

But also difference and unity, and that difference isn't the same as separation. Right. Anyway, it seems like that's where I was going to go. And as I sat here thinking about it, I realized a little bit that this question around unity is a little bit my lean. It's where I go. You go that way? Yeah. Towards unity. Separating. And I think it's my own background, right? Okay. Germany. Germany. So I was wondering, well, what is the unity in the midst of all of this separation? And now what I think is working to actually keep articulate, like the unifying factor is actually fear. Maybe. Yeah. That could be a kind of unifying thing. Because some of the examples you brought up, what Kosho brought up, if you just do it my way, but I can't be a male your way. I mean,

[49:55]

There are some things that you can't shift, just do it. You know, it's not an external, like we all did the same thing. Well, you say that, and that's true, but still we sometimes try to get people to do it. Sometimes we try to get the women to be like the men. Yeah, we can try and get them to be, but they can't. And I can't be, you understand. In this lifetime, it probably will be black and it will be Asian. But we can try to make you Hispanic. But that's silly. It's silly, but instead of called silly, it could be called oppression. Oppression doesn't work. It just causes trouble. But people try. But it won't work. Right. So I'm trying to understand where the work is in the unification, unity, which I'm thinking now of a thing that runs through all of it.

[50:58]

It might be working with our fear. Yeah, working with fear. And as we said, we were having that preaching meeting. We... It was like diversity in the prison union. There's actually quite a bit of diversity expressed, but it was a little painful, too, because there was some sense of separation in that diversity. And then later she realized... Oh, I wish you'd tell me that she said this. Okay. Later she realized... Ben? Yes. What... I felt after the meeting where a lot of difference was expressed was the pain. I felt that we were all in pain. And that felt, it's like I wasn't different anymore because I realized that even though that color or the flavor of our pain was different, different people were feeling pain. aspects of feeling like being on the end of the outside here.

[52:04]

But what we shared was that there was this pain. And it was something kind of just intimate and founding, releasing for me personally in my body, when I just kind of felt the similarity of... Fear. Or fear. Or fear. Yeah. And that's okay to be in pain and be afraid in our community. We don't have to say, Zen Center does not have fear. Zen Center does not have pain. This is a happy, fearless, harmonious life. Anybody who says different will be asked to leave. Something up there would say that I forgot one thing, but anyway, um, this thing, Maria, he felt like she got some support, but there, but actually there's not so much.

[53:06]

Sometimes we go afterwards, not because like, I wouldn't be afraid to support you, but actually there was really not much space between you two talking for anybody to get in. You know, there was kind of, Anyway, and sometimes it happens in class, not these classes here, but life is flowing, I'll call it that way, pretty fast, and it's like working with your fear of maybe being disrespectful or how do you have to wave your hands or get up here and say, excuse me, what I just heard didn't seem to, you know, there's like sometimes just not the people who want support or want feedback, actually have to make some stakes for that as well. Otherwise, it just sounds like nice. No, it just sounds like a nice support, but you have to make space for it or the feedback or whatever. If you don't make space for it, probably, or there's a chance, a good chance you're not going to get it because it's too hard to get in.

[54:14]

Oh, I can get some amount. So that's the space. Let's make some space for people to get in now. We have about three minutes. Can I get in here? Was this supposed to be for this? I just want to make a little space there, okay? It's very short. But we need space. You can use the space there. And there was a change in space. When we say something in public, it really puts us off on the line. Is there anybody else here who agrees with what I'm saying? Yeah, that's a good thing. Does anybody agree with Sonia? I saw some people nodding. Do they agree with what she says? Yeah.

[55:14]

Okay. Do people agree with what Koshia said? No. Like that? Yes? I think it's really, I totally agree with both of you. I think it's very difficult to be, say, present enough when they're, for me, for myself, you know. fear to challenge something, you know, that things are moving really fast, which I think is our style generally, kind of to jump in, be clear about what you're saying, and then create a pause, you know, then ask for a pause, and ask for, okay, as not, you know, I'm not the leader, but I'm now going to say, you know, I'd like to hear how a few people feel about what I said, it's kind of taking, as one person once put it to me, you took the group.

[56:17]

I was, had a very negative reaction, but the fifth, if one, [...] seniors, well, I know it's a real math question, to the group, a very negative response. But if you're going to ask how can we encourage people to speak up, then There needs to be somehow, systematically, structurally, culturally, publicly, this value articulated and practiced. because the habit pattern is very much the other direction and also the mixed message. And I appreciate the space that you make and the invitations that you make. And I've even heard you say, and even if I, you know, kind of come across rough after you give me the feedback, I still don't even need the feedback. But I haven't heard too many other people issue this invitation.

[57:21]

And I think it's very rough. when it's given, and I've been in the position of doing that in a group, having none of my peers come forth and support me in the kind of happening, and I think that's because of our training and conditioning. And even after these groups are over, and I've kind of been out there and treated roughly nobody, but last time not in one person. came to see how I walked. So it's very... really going against the... Does anybody else feel like that? Yes. Yeah. Can I do that? As you see, I forgot to do that. Well, but again, if you had done that, if you had asked and viewed that, then someone might say, well, you took the meeting.

[58:23]

So I need, if I'm in this seat, I need to help you. Help you two ways. One is by asking the question for you or for us, but if you ask it, to not later punish you for taking the meeting. Because in some sense, if you do take the meeting, then that's hard. I would just like to say that because in some sense this meeting should come to an end soon, I'd just like to say that I will try to practice this with you at the next meeting that I have with you. I'll try to clarify ways of helping each other express ourselves that have been expressed here, and I'll try to practice these with you in the meetings we have for the next month here, in hopes that that would be encouraging for us to continue in other venues, in the other venues of This is really great stuff about how to help people express themselves.

[59:26]

how to express the pain they feel in the separations which occur among our differences. Not the separate experience of separation, your fears that come up and how that and all that. I think these are all good points. And do we have to stop now? We do? Soji's story. OK. So one more person had her hand raised, but you can tell me later. So here's that I'm asking you to help me continue ways that would make it more encouraging for people and supporting people to do this difficult thing of expressing their fears, of getting feedback when they speak contemptuously and condescendingly, to help them and to help people have space after they talk for feedback. to work on these points and help me and others remember these points.

[60:31]

Okay? Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[60:36]

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