This next one is engaging in distraction, diverse worldly activities, entertainments. And another one is looking for one's own advantage in the hectic confusion and wild activity of the world. And I was thinking about like, you know, although I haven't been there, I have a sense of them and other places like that. And some people feel like they have to be out there because that's where they make their living. And so they don't necessarily know that their advantage is there because they need to make their living as a rickshaw driver or something. So if you don't have enough resources, then the hectic life busy world, it seems like you have to go there to survive.

[01:05]

But when you have the resources, then you can look to see, are you going out into the street? Is it really a or do you really need to go out? Do you really think that it's to your advantage to go out there? The video droid question. How often should we go to a video droid? Yeah. You've been going all together, too. It was shocking, but it was good. It's like, whoops. Some other people have come to me and said that they've noticed that they're spending a lot of time... This withdrawal syndrome. Withdrawing into... It's a subtle thing, you know, are you withdrawing from being present into these entertainments and these exciting activities?

[02:18]

Is that the same thing as diversion? Yeah. Excuse me, but at least one cultural critic has made that point specifically about videos, that going to movie theaters was a social experience. Videos are only the deferral of cultural interaction. Well, except a corporate video tried. Yeah, but you can do it by Netflix, and then you've got to... Unless Martha Wax is sitting next to you. And then you have some social... You can do it through Netflix. You can do it all on computers. Watch it all alone on your computer. I mean, it's incredible. Interact with anybody. You just have to have mail service. You have to move to where we have mail service. You can get it straight on your computer even without the mail service, I think. I do notice as the township are bringing the mail, there's always lots of Netflix envelopes with no address.

[03:21]

I can't see. Well, if the office knows who's getting them. I can't see. Those of us who call friends to see if they have a video know, too. I think there's another question here. Aside from the rumors of entertainments and worldly diversions, there's also the worldly ambition that engages you in making and creating them. Yes. So, I mean, this is pretty sweeping if you take it. Yeah. of looking at videos of how comfortable do you have how much how much can you how can you be uncomfortable do you go to the movies do you get videos uncomfortable or unentertained or you know that's a that's a good question it's

[04:27]

For people who like to put their nose in the book, that really is also a good question of when is it that the timeline of the video, the books, the fiction... How willing are you to be uncomfortable? That's been a good one for me. You know, if you've had a bad day at Green Gulch, do you just want to go to Joe's and get a video? You want to go visit Arlene. Come into the kitchen and have a squaring. I mean, you know, really. Yes, we do. We don't think you're kidding. But I like the intense look on your face. If it would be okay to say so, though, you know, often, sometimes Nina and I watch videos, and often I feel it's kind of a reverse thing.

[05:32]

You know, we live fairly insolently. We don't live in a community. We're kind by ourselves, and it's a way of letting... Sometimes I'm not up for it, you know. I don't want to watch a video, you know, I don't want that much energy coming into my living room. So mostly it's, I think, I don't know, I've never discussed this with you, but for me it kind of more plays like, not exactly personal social interaction, but it's a form of social interaction, opening to the activity of the culture in a way that I normally insulate it. We don't have TV or an otherwise busy entertainment schedule. experience too when you watch a video of some sort or a movie that afterwards, like days afterwards, you have like images of that movie come happening. Recently I walked and I had the image of me reading come up.

[06:36]

The activity of reading. But this activity came up as an image. So even like, not even the video, but even my daily experience reproduces images that later on are occupying my mind. So it makes me reflect on like how deep the concentration actually has to be cut through those sides. Well, so that goes into right? When is it wholesome activity of study? And when is it also just a way to not meet what's in front of you? Just going into the book, fiction or nonfiction,

[07:38]

You know, it's kind of interesting to me to see when you have a dedicated time for study, or you have a dedicated time to have some good movie you've heard or referenced. It's interesting. And then Lincoln said, just to make something, lift from you some feeling. Since we're not so busy here, maybe it's not there. When I go back to Texas, I'm always aware that we have a much more insular world. When I'm really at home and spend a few days with my family in the world, I'm aware that we have a great amount of peer space here.

[08:43]

Oh, which we sometimes don't want. Why don't we do some practice with this light? Camp out by video drive? Ask your students what they're doing there? Should we wait for a year to see what it feels like? That's easy for those of us who don't have them. So you might want to do it. We might have to watch videos to make it to, you know. You might want to watch them. So you want to watch it? They have to give up their videos to those of us who don't have them, and then we have to give up our knowledge. Okay, so you want to do that? No, I don't want to watch videos. Then you can do the same practice as the other people, even though it's easy. Okay, that would be fine, too. So let's consider that, maybe taking a year off and watching videos.

[09:59]

Would that be that extreme? No, I could have done three hours. No, I was thinking about... One day? You mean a whole day? Yeah. All right, 24 hours. One day at a time. I'm interested to see if they could go back into my account and actually, how I would like to do it, as far as for me, is actually talk to Clint. He knows the guys. He knows everybody. I mean, that's who he's married to. I don't think they're married. But I'd like to find out how often do we get videos, and then I'd like to make the commitment to reduce it by 50%, something like that, to see if we do it every two weeks or is it once a week. I really actually don't know because it doesn't have a pattern. I know we don't do anything in January and nothing in Sashines, whether we're in the Sashines or not.

[11:05]

We have our little guidelines within our... world, but I'd like to look to see how much it is, and then make a commitment to reduce it by 50 percent. Whatever that is, for a year. Well, I hear you suggest, too. Personally, that seems fine for you. I was thinking maybe to consider it as a group thing, what we might do. I know, but... Well, I just don't know that anybody else maybe watches them quite so much. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, so I think if the whole group was here, we could talk about it. Or more of the group, anyway. Consider this one. What about other diversions, like going to a movie theater or going to play or hearing music? Right. Those kind of things. Yeah, I think it's a little different. But we could talk about that.

[12:06]

For me... For me, like, for me going... Risa likes to go to these things. For me, it's such a huge effort. Like, particularly she likes to go to Berkeley, to Zellerbach. To drive all the way over there. It's a theater. It's a beautiful theater. That has really good programs. and it's all the way over in Berkeley. So to go all the way over there for this and then go through the hassle of parking and the whole thing, you know, it's a lot of work from my perspective to go through. And then oftentimes I fall asleep during the things. But even in the movies, I sometimes fall asleep. To me it's like, it's definitely, I almost never want to go, and for me it's an act of devotion, which I, actually it's one of the most difficult things I do.

[13:12]

So it's quite different, huh? You don't want to go, and you go because... Just for Rousseau. But, you know, sometimes I don't go. And because it's just I don't want to. But sometimes I do just to do it with her. I don't feel the same way about movies. They're not so hard. But videos, you don't have to drive. You don't have to park. You can find yourself in the middle of wine without even thinking about it. And you can turn it off if you don't like it. And if you get sleepy, just turn it off. It's different. Just like drinking alone is different than drinking in a bar or drinking at our dinner table. For me, it's quite different, going out.

[14:19]

I've only gone to two movies since I've been married without Russa. One of them was Raging Bull. Of course! She did not want to see it. I won an Academy Award. It's kind of a great movie in a lot of ways. She did not want to see it, and she still doesn't. And I also saw, I think, I saw the Gladiator. And the beginning, some of the beginning scenes were so beautiful. They're war scenes, but... It's so beautiful the way he captured this Roman machine. It's just so, you know, it's in some ways beautiful. If I could just wax a little bit rhapsodic, there's this book called Avenging Angels about the Battle of Gettysburg.

[15:28]

And they talk about when the Confederate Army is walking up the hill. 100,000 men walking up the hill, a mile long, and just walking up the hill. And one Union soldier said, it was the most beautiful thing I ever saw. Of course, in that state, you're looking at this thing, and you're like... you're open, right? Also, at that time, most people in the United States had never seen a crowd. What we would define as a crowd. Most people had never seen that kind of thing. Yeah. So, anyway, and just, and this guy won a little surprise for the book. It's, it's, you know, a thing, and, so anyway, that Rosa did not want to see the movie and was just really beautiful. And I went to it just as a cinematic thing.

[16:36]

The rest of the movie was kind of not very interesting, but just the first few battle scenes were just... And you have to see it on a big screen. Anyway, it's like... But usually I go with her, and so she's my excuse for going to movies. Whatever. Or with somebody. We went to a movie with Macy at one time. We wanted to see Shaggy Dog, and we wanted a place that had it, and we got to it, but they weren't showing it. So then we saw Big Mama No. 2 or something. I remember you talking about this. No, it was one of those famous African-American comedians, and... For me, it was actually a wonderful experience to see what African-Americans are watching. I think a lot of them probably.

[17:43]

It's amazingly crude. And Maceo sat through the whole thing because he got this slurpee or whatever. A huge slurpee. Took him the whole movie to finish. Pumping away in that thing. So he got through this whole horrible, boring movie. However, the message of the movie, although the whole thing was very crude, the message of the movie was definitely a totally wholesome message. I meant totally wholesome because it was a wholesome way to relate to unwholesomeness. It was about family, caring, honesty, and faithfulness. So it was very nice. Anyway, but I just couldn't... It was a good experience for me to dip into that world. It was amazing. So that's the number that I went to without Lusa.

[18:46]

I hope I'll miss you. It's three. Oh, actually, and I also went to Superman, the first Superman movie, I went to with Taya, not Teresa. Four. We're up to four now, yeah. What other secrets are you thinking about? So, this part is the part that's associated with mindfulness, or with... Concentration? No, with concentration. So, whether we do these things or don't do these things, I mean, whether we think of them as these kind of solitary distractions, like watching a video kind of mindlessly, or whether it's a... some higher principle of our activity that takes us to see a movie or a ballet or something.

[19:47]

Well, she always said daydreaming, right? Or whether it's... She didn't have a video, so she daydreams. Daydreaming is too, but what I'm saying is even when it's something like challenging, like an artistic production of some kind that's actually... complex and skillful and you've gone with other people to see it and all of that, it's still potentially a contradiction to your concentration. No. I mean, sort of no in terms of this text. This text is saying it's when you look to those things as Oh, I see. And you're involved in the gain, involved in going to. No, it's when you look to these things thinking that it will be to your advantage or that you will be happy. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, that's what's going on in each of these cases. If you just go to these things, but you don't think that this is the way to happiness, then that activity will not so much be an obstacle to your happiness.

[20:55]

It might be kind of unusual to go, because what other motivation? Please come. Yeah, right. But it's not the going or not going, it's the thinking that that this would be to your advantage, that it would be advantageous to your bodhisattva path. But these are supposed to be obstacles to this attitude. The bodhisattva should be able to do all these things, basically. But to think, you know, a bodhisattva could, what do you call it, not endure scorner. but they would consider it a mistake, and fine. But to think that not enduring scorn would bring you happiness, like some people say, you should stand up for yourself and not take that, they think that that would bring happiness, to not stand up to it, to not accept it, to not receive it.

[21:57]

That attitude is what's been pointed at these things so much, which are just mistakes. Mistakes are not exactly good. But they aren't really obstacles. They're actually more like opportunities to realize it's a mistake. So in each case, it's like looking at these things as actually like paths to the good for you. That's why, for me, a video is more a question than going to the movies with Rusa. Which question? the question of in my that this is going to bring me happiness I don't think that it's going to bring me happiness to go to these events with her at Zellerbach because I don't think so I don't want to go and sometimes when I go not always I have a great time I just don't think I'm going to and sometimes I don't

[23:03]

So I don't look forward to them. I don't want to do them. But I am going to do them, probably. Again and again, if I keep living. But not from the point of view of thinking my happiness will be in going to them. My happiness will be if I see the truth. That's my happiness. The truth? The truth. If I see truth, I'll be happy. Being the truth before you go, after you go, the middle? Exactly. That's where the goods are. These other things are going to be our happiness, then that kind of tilts us in the wrong way, and then they become obstacles to the practice. So, again, it's not an object, it's in the relationship. It's an object, yeah. So it doesn't really matter whether it's a video or a chocolate bar or a daydream or a dharma. You may know for yourself. Right. For some people, alcohol is not a problem.

[24:05]

They instantly get sick. In fact, you can take drugs so you will get sick, right? Yeah. So some people, they take these drugs so if they drink a little alcohol, they get sick. But some people just naturally get sick, so it's no problem for them to not drink. But maybe they like marijuana. We have what's called drug of choice, right? So for me, videos are more like a drug of choice. Going to the opera is not a drug of choice. So, watching operas, I would probably want to do it if I thought that it would promote seeing the truth, which it might if I could stay awake. And I probably could stay awake if I had really good suits. They cost $150. Right? Per person. Per performance, per person, yeah. Sometimes people give people such tickets, and people go to them, and then they go to sleep.

[25:11]

And they feel bad because they're sleeping. Boy, gratitude. We'll offer tickets for you from this person. Well, Risa was in the Mendels thing, and it was 205 minutes long. She had to do it over three days. But she said it was a transcendent experience. It's not... Yeah, and I saw a little bit of it last night when I got home, and it was... Yeah, it was... Let's do something else for distraction. This is not... This is not distracting. This is painful. And it's about people getting crucified and stuff. I'm sorry, what is this? It was a Handel opera. Oh, uh-huh. George Handel. Yeah. She watched her for three nights, and she said it was just for her transcendent experience. And she might have showed it to me because she wanted me to view what she was watching when she saw some truth, I guess.

[26:19]

So I said, and I wanted to look at the New Yorker cartoons. She kept taking the magazine away to look at that. But I said, I will watch this whole thing and have a transcendent experience. I'm going to watch the whole thing someday. And as it transcends, as it has a definite concentrated effort to see the truth. 205 minutes. Well, somehow isn't part of the, isn't the dialogue that you have between each other transcendence to be able to see why it is and isn't? Isn't that a great thing to see in a relationship? Yes, it is. I was having a very transcendent experience, true. Thanks to her. Yes. It's somehow an amazing question, but amazing. So we are just beings who are experiencing pain or discomfort.

[27:28]

We want to turn away and distract ourselves, right? So we got there. That could be, or you yourself could just want to distract yourself and be present. Right. Right. Mm-hmm. I would like to know if the only antidote you would say is just be present and like, or are we as a, since we like, we got all this material in the Western about psychology and so forth, if you also have to acknowledge that we are complex beings, that then, then on the... You're talking a little too fast for me. No. Too fast. Well, there's this one truth of wanting to turn away, but not being present. And one is just like having a sensation and not wanting to have that sensation. But there's always these schools and queues and what psychology transfers to us of like very complex beings.

[28:35]

And I wonder to which extent we have to acknowledge our complexity. I think it's a wonderful practice to almost every moment just remember our complexity. That gives you this kind of, I'm a complex being. I'm a complex being. It's a very nice method of mindfulness. And then maybe you don't have to say it anymore. You can just keep watching. Do we then are invited as practitioners to follow this path of healing into a whole being? How they kind of, I mean, in a way, it's good. Well, are you talking too fast? I'm asking about the invitation for us of being completely aware of all our crookedness and wanting to be straight, that whole process.

[29:38]

Well, you mean being aware of our crookedness and being aware of our wish to be straight? Right. Yeah, I think that's very good, to be aware of our crookedness and be aware of our wish to be straight. Very good. A period. Is that a period? Yeah, that's always a period for me. But the other sentence would just lead me into a huge complexity of power. Are you distracting yourself from doing what we just said was good? Yeah, I do. Yeah, so would you... and just appreciate your crookedness and your straightness, and you wish to be straight? I do wish to be straight. I think that's our practice. Like right now, we're aware of what's going on. That's our practice, basically. And then we think it would be good for us to do something other than be present.

[30:48]

And that's what we're talking about here, this sense of maybe reading a book or talking about psychology or daydreaming. So thank you for bringing that up. Thank you. I think you helped us all. You're present. Didn't she? No. You're distracted yet? I don't know. Any questions? Yeah. I was thinking, so I kind of did. But we might as well go home now, right? What? We might as well, like, finish. Because anything we bring up now kind of might be distracting us from the present. Oh, definitely. Should we stop this meeting? That would be a distraction. I think I pointed to the next point in the paragraph. OK. Well, we'll see. We can watch it. OK. My glasses are back on.

[31:51]

And viewing conventional elaborations of seeing, hearing, distinguishing, and discerning as advantageous qualities. Viewing one's advantage in the fabrication of what one sees hears, understands, knows, and says. Yeah, that's good, Catherine. You know this is relevant, isn't it? Seeing profound worth and advantage in what one perceives, feels, cognizes in talk and nonsense. Yeah, well, that's strict. So does that mean... Get out of here. Things are always self-referring.

[32:58]

I do. To understand the word elaboration, elaboration, we see here and distinguish and discern things all the time. So seeing as advantageous. Yeah, the elaboration, I could imagine that might kind of actually throw off. The other translation says, see advantage in the fabrication of what one sees. So here we have my mind thrown back to the instruction of, in the scene, there will be just the scene. Is that conceptual elaboration? Without elaboration or fabrication.

[33:59]

But there's some tendency of our mind to think that conceptually elaborating on what we see will be an advantage, will be something good for us. It's like critiquing. Critiquing, or saying it's great, or saying it's beautiful. Anyway, some elaboration, some fabrication upon our experience, and thinking that that will be good for us. That attitude that that would be good, throws us off, or becomes an obstacle. Now, to elaborate on what you hear and see in normal life, without thinking that the elaboration is going to bring you benefit, like, I'll elaborate it on the situation of being off and say, well, maybe we should go home now.

[35:03]

But did he think that that was going to be an advantage to him when he said that? If he did, then that would be like an obstacle to practicing wisdom. But if he did just in the spirit of generosity, of making that comment, it brings him some benefit. If he's just being generous, then it's not in that same spirit. It's the idea that elaborating, fabricating upon our experience, that's where our goods are. that in what you see there's some goodness. That's an elaboration. Like, you see something, period, or you see something and think that there's going to be something in it for you. That's an elaboration of just seeing it. It's a fabrication upon it. It seemed like this could be read in this more radical way, where

[36:04]

the seeing and hearing and distinguishing are themselves the elaborations that are the fabrication. Say again? Instead of reading elaborations that are on seeing and hearing, you're seeing the seeing, hearing, distinguishing, discerning themselves. They themselves are elaborations. Or applications. Yeah, that's possible. But also that the seeing or the view that the seeing or hearing was going to be good for you. That is an elaboration. I see that. So there's millions of ways to elaborate on that. There's millions of ways and angles on how to not just let things happen. and not get anything out of them. The way that English is worded in the Big Translation and in Kenan, it can be interpreted in either direction.

[37:12]

And the way, uh, Cleary reads it, he goes directly seeing war is an advantage in spiels and cognizes. not in what one puts on top of what one feels and cognizes. So that's why it looks like it could go that way, more radical. So basically, anything that you think will be an advantage to you, even that I'm appreciating the beauty of a tree or something, as soon as I make that something, it would be an advantage to me. As soon as you think that looking at the tree would be an advantage... Then we shop, then we have the satsang. If it's an advantage for us. That's what I was just going to ask. What about that point? This is all about seeing all these things as advantage, but what about seeing anything, doing something or seeing that it's a benefit to others?

[38:15]

Or like seeing food and thinking it can help other people. Sure, that would be... So you'd see that this food could help other people, you know, give good benefit to hungry people. Uh-huh, yeah, like that. Yeah, so they could do something about it. And you wouldn't think that, yeah, that would be okay. I think it does that for yourself. One version is such. We could pass around and see different. Yeah, I think for other people, we could get twisted too, but basically it's quite different. Like, for example, like I was saying earlier, some people are hungry, and if they're hungry, it's pretty hard for them to... So, as a means to meditation, feed them, or feed yourself. Even though you have to conceptually elaborate to do that. Yeah, you have to sort of eat in order to have enough blood sugar level to actually meditate on how the food is not going to give you happiness.

[39:21]

Seeing the truth is going to give you happiness, but if you're hungry, you can't contemplate the truth. You're too hungry. Change your breath. Change your breath. Did you make them? No. John Chips. Yeah, so, but see, some people actually do think that some of the means to meditation on the truth are the ant. Some people actually think that. When the poor people think that if they got the Cadillac in the house, and the air conditioner, and the DVD player, and the respected people, and the retirement blah blah, they think if they had those things that they would be happy. I mean, that's okay for them to think, but if they actually stop there, it's spiritually a big problem. I mean, you're not happy there.

[40:24]

But you have to give that to people sometimes in order for them to meditate on the truth. So if you want to give it to them, you could give it to them for that reason. If they get it for themselves improperly, there's an obstacle. Sometimes it might distract them from the truth to give it to them. It might, but in that case you shouldn't give it. If you feel like the person is meditating on the truth, even though their blood sugar level is low, then you probably wouldn't give it to them. Wait until after they realize it and then feed them. Like giving someone a DVD, you might just, because it would settle them down, because maybe they're going around robbing banks or something and you're not going to stay inside and watch a video. Yeah, right. Kind of unusual. Unusual, but it has... Now, see, there's an example of where that could be something which you'd do for someone else and make a movie about it for 20 months, you know, but not for yourself.

[41:29]

Not to think that that would make you happy to make up that lovely story of getting a DVD player and stopping the person from robbing the bank. Well, it's about time. watch this movie as me okay i missed the bank robbery now the bank is closed and it also brings up the question of that i think i i was thinking of last week that again amongst practitioners say like amongst us to give each other The video player, if we're assuming we have this intention to meditate on truth, then it might be harder to see how it could be beneficial. But yet, sometimes things like this are promoted. But sometimes what? Things like this are promoted amongst us. That we give each other... We interact with each other in the name of goodness. Like what? Maybe going to a movie could be like this.

[42:30]

Well, helping someone is the same way. Sending them money. Well, let's look at going to movies. So people, the priests in training, when they go to movies, they ask me, and I ask them to be helpful, and they explain to me how. They often say it's something to do with the so-and-so, a way to be with so-and-so, and I think... They could say something together. Yes, they could. Often they do. But they don't usually ask me. Not as often as they want to be. unless they want to satsang with somebody they think is really cute. Then they ask me. But otherwise, they sometimes just, you know, they don't ask me every time they go to satsang with somebody. But that's a good point. I'll be asking them about that next time. Why don't you go satsang with that person? They'll be able to answer that question. Sitta-se. Yeah, I mean, I notice how my mind gets into these kind of like, it sees it in maybe kind of a limited way, but it's like it's hard for me to sometimes see the bigger picture, which is outside my conceivability or something.

[43:50]

What are you seeing in a limited way and what are you not seeing? Like I said, almost like, not necessarily like always just sitting zazen, which is the best thing for everybody, but I tend to kind of like veer towards that perspective, I think, sometimes. Like if we're really, really looking at every moment, what's really most beneficial for becoming Buddha, saving all beings, you know. serious about that and but if I am then it's like I really all these questions become like huge or they become like very real like I actually my intention is to read those things and I do distract myself from and I went through this video phase for example on where I could see how it became this habit. It just became a habit.

[44:53]

It was like a weekly thing. It's like Thursday night, so I'm watching video. And a month ago, it's kind of like, I just actually feel like I just want to stop. And I just felt, I could see how it actually shifted my life to do that. And it's just this tiny example of so many things like this in my life. This is, again, I think I've got it before how I feel like for me, it's so easy for me to fool myself and say, well, it's not that big a thing. Just, you know, relax, enjoy it. But I feel like those are the times when I'm kind of this actually. Definitely possible. For my kind of deepest intentions. And, you know, we're just humans, of course, but when I'm tuned into how wonderful the possibility is to know how it is a possibility.

[46:03]

Definitely. I agree. to never turn away or very positively to turn always be turning towards sasa no matter what you're doing always be pointing towards practice and the wholeness and realization but you're not talking about a cross-legged pastor you're not talking about a cross-legged yeah if you're cross-legged pointed you know feet towards that if you're standing up in that direction if you're walking If there's a video going on, you don't have to look at it, but you can look at it. But if you are looking at it, can you look at it and also remember to be, not to be turning towards or, you know, to be facing the actual practice of the actual practice of going together with everybody and the actual enlightenment that you're doing.

[47:03]

Can we actually do that while you're watching a video. And if you can't, then are you saying, well, I feel like I need to take a break. I'm into rest. I don't think I'm doing it. But after this is over, I'm going to return. Or not look at it and just stay with the practice. And also, another way to put it maybe is the meditation you've been talking about for a while, about intention, like really closely examining moment to moment intention. Yeah, and now we're talking about the intention to contemplate the true practice, the intention to look at the... Like here's a video, and like, what is my true intention? Yeah. Without fooling myself. Is this a good opportunity for the practice for me? to go in that room with these people. And sometimes, again, you know, it's often that one of the nice things about being a grandparent is you're not necessarily interested in anything that the kids are doing, the thing.

[48:14]

You're interested in being the grandparent to the kid. You're oriented towards the practice of being a grandparent rather than the children's game. and you could play the children's game or not, but you're mostly oriented towards, in a sense, practicing the child. So you can actually be doing a childish game, actually feeling pretty much like you're in the Zendo at that time, and enjoying actually being able to do something which ordinarily you wouldn't be able to do and practice. Usually, if you're playing a childish game, the only reason why you're doing it is because you want to do it. because you want to distract yourself. But sometimes you're out playing a childish game for others, and sometimes you are getting food for others, and you're actually not distracted from the practice while you're doing the thing which a lot of people would be distracting themselves if they were doing that. But some situations we can't and remember to orient towards the practice.

[49:24]

So those things, in some sense, are too advanced. Again, you're not old enough yet to do them. You're still one of the kids. But at a certain point you get so old that you're not interested in anything. So the only reason why you do anything, nothing distracts you anymore. You're always looking at Zaza. And you're practically dead. Which makes it easier to not think that these things are going to give you happiness. It's a little clearer to you. Take your day. Some of these things that we could turn toward in the spirit of turning toward Zazen wouldn't be looked at as distractions unless, I mean, like, I don't know, you mentioned Raging Bull, I also, but Let's say that that's a movie that one could go see just because it's a movie and one wants to be distracted, but one could also go see it as an opportunity to see some truth.

[50:33]

Yeah, that's not why I went. I went because I thought it was a really good movie. But you could hear that a movie is very good. I'm not saying you can't do it. That's what I'm asking. I'm just saying I didn't go that way. I'm not asking about why you went. I'm saying I could have gone that way, but I don't think I really did. I wanted to see a really good movie, and it was a really good movie, but I didn't go to see the truth. However, I'm hoping you will. Even though you went there with worldly intentions, the artist is hoping... that because of their effort, you will have a glimpse of the truth. And as an audience person, you can attend these things with that intention. Yeah, and it's part of the laziness of going to good art, kind of thinking that the artists will help you, and they sometimes do, and you sometimes feel like, good, they did help me. I need some help. I don't know if it's laziness. Not necessarily. The artist needs the audience for the art to be made.

[51:35]

You might want to go help the artist be successful. We don't normally think of seeking instruction or development and maturation of our practice or awakening awakening our mind to act as being a form of laziness. But, I mean, my idea of a really good artwork is something that will amaze me, something that will astonish me and open up the range of my perception about the truth of my condition that I hadn't already noticed. Every time I look at art, I'm asking, Can you be my teacher? Is there something here to wake me up? And maybe that's lazy, but I don't feel about it that it's laziness.

[52:38]

Sometimes what I mean by lazy is we want somebody else to do our work for us. And if we want to do spiritual practice, sometimes we want somebody else to do it for us, to get us to do it, or whatever. And you can be practicing wholeheartedly and then want to go and practice in an art situation, but not... You want to integrate that experience with your ongoing practice, and then you don't feel like you're... It's not a lazy feeling, but there also could be that you're actually hoping that somebody else will do your spiritual work for you. We can do that. I'm not saying it always happens, but there can be that kind of a spiritual materialism to try to get somebody... It's high quality, right? That would be more what's in the range of these things that are contrary to the perfections. If you were going to a good source of enlightenment in a lazy way, in a greedy, lazy way. This laziness is going on through this.

[53:38]

The fourth one, overindulgence through lack of effort. So that could pervade all the other ones. So I'm not saying we can go to art. We can go to a game. We can go to a meal. And we can go to that as a continuation of our practice. We can also go to things which, generally speaking, have a good chance to promote spiritual experience. And we can go to that event in a lazy way. And so we don't go to big moment number two. We go to handle. with the best singers on the planet, you know, presented in a way that's not at all distracting and very raw. And we can go in there from our practice, intending to continue to practice in this new, in some sense, very challenging and upper, very...

[54:39]

But opportune, opportune situation with no laziness, but there can be laziness too. Even when you're going to the highest, you know, Bach, Beethoven, Dharma talk, whatever, yeah. You can hope that the teacher is going to do the work for you. So that can happen. And so if you're practicing, then when you go to these events, you might not do them lazily and they might enhance and Because, again, as we know, the artist needs the audience and the Buddha needs a partner. So when you see the truth, that's great. But when you don't see the truth with somebody. So it actually enhances the practice of truth when you go and meet other practitioners. Sometimes you think, I'm practicing the truth, and then when I met them, it took another step up. And not because of laziness on my part, but because of their cooperation, their collaboration And they were meditating.

[55:43]

And I walked in meditating. And then I saw them meditating. And they felt me meditating. And then sometimes, you know, sometimes artists, that audience, because of that audience, it was the greatest moment in my career. Because that audience was like really practicing. I was practicing. I made that possible for them. But they also aided me to have a great experience. So that's not lazy. That's really practicing together, yeah. The concept for me is that if I go in a situation, I will receive a different . For example, right now, I could describe a certain range of what I would describe practice. It doesn't reach the practice, but I could describe... You're talking too fast. Maybe I was talking too fast, too, but you're talking too fast for me. Now, please. that right now I can add some words to how I would describe practice in this setting right now.

[56:49]

Yes. And that doesn't quite reach that practice. If I go into a different place, I would put different words to the situation because I'm a different self. But so is the real practice either. But that's all I have. So all of that is like, how do I actually really know that I'm practicing because there's actually nothing that really conveys. There's nothing to point to. Where does the conviction come from when I'm practicing? What is the conviction? You know, I haven't heard much about a conviction that I am practicing. I haven't heard much about that from practitioners. Did you get that? What I hear... Bruno is the only one who can really talk. I didn't hear that he had a conviction to practice.

[57:51]

To practice. She said conviction to practice. I haven't heard about a conviction to practice. Or conviction that I'm practicing. By practice you develop a conviction in the truth. You become convinced of the truth when you practice. But I don't really have a conviction about the practice. Practice, it's its own conviction, just in doing itself. So to know that I'm practicing is not a big deal for me. But then you could also feel lazy, right? And you would know that you're practicing. You might. That's a big thing for me. If I know I'm lazy, that's what's important. To then realize, oh, I'm practicing, that's nice, but it's not that big a deal. Well, it's just an affirmation. It might be wrong. It might be wrong.

[58:53]

That's part of your problem, is it? It might be wrong. You might be tricking yourself to think that you're practicing. The way that I'm practicing, myself, I'm not so much into having conviction. Now, if people may... Confidence is slightly different than conviction. But, you know, they're related. Well, you know, if you're enjoying the practice, you may look like you have confidence. But you may not, at the time that you're practicing with conviction or with confidence, at that time, you may not be thinking that you know that you're practicing. You said, how do you know that you're practicing? And saying, when you're practicing wholeheartedly, you may not, and actually you could say probably won't, be thinking that you know you're practicing.

[59:55]

What I'm thinking about, what I'm hearing, how Shoho is struggling with this problem, I think, which is a legitimate problem. How do we develop confidence that we're headed the right way? But I think that the issue isn't I practicing, because that goes in the direction of the reification of the self. I'm practicing. And if we have an I practicing, I think already that's a kind of a problem. So maybe it's more an issue of orienting ourselves in a way that we see practice. If we're always seeing practice, then maybe we should let it go at that and not worry about whether I'm practicing. And also, if it came to the application of the practice. Right. It's the practice, and that one wouldn't be the practice. Or even this is the practice.

[61:06]

But there could be confidence that the practice is happening. We also want confidence that it's happening, but confidence in it, confidence in practicing, that you're doing the practice, confidence in the way you're doing it. So confidence is... and confidence that the practice will be good. But that's slightly different than confidence that you're doing it. But confidence is fundamental. Confidence in the correct... And then maybe the stronger the confidence is in what that is, then it naturally becomes more and more aligned with it. Yes, and also one then can see if... You know, sometimes you say, I have confidence in practice, but you say, well, I don't know if I do, because sometimes... And if I really had confidence, then I probably wouldn't get distracted. Maybe I wouldn't. It seems like maybe I would be less distracted.

[62:08]

Selfness isn't completely realized. Yeah, right. And then sometimes, though, when you feel like you have full confidence, then now you can see if the practice really is. But before you have full confidence, you say, well, maybe if I had more full confidence, the separation between practice and enlightenment wouldn't be there. But now, I feel like, yeah, they're not separate, and there's no holding back in the practice. And now, I don't really need to know. I'm happy. I see the truth. And if this isn't the practice, OK, well, it's been interesting. But I'm happy, finally. And I'm happy because I see the truth. and I see the truth, so I'm happy. And the practice is like seeing the truth. But I don't need to know that I'm practicing. And I'm completely open to people telling me I'm not.

[63:10]

And if you ask me if I'm practicing, I don't particularly... I can say yes, but I don't really see that as the answer. And practice for so long has been open to questioning, and I'm still there. But no doubt. Open your questioning, but no doubt. And no doubt. Right. Questioning and no doubt. Fully confident that questioning is life. That life is questioning. But not necessarily knowing that I'm practicing. or thinking that I know I'm practicing, but I'm confident in checking with myself and feeling like I actually am enjoying practicing, but I don't know if I am, or I'm enjoying this activity. And I do think it's practice, but that's just my thinking.

[64:16]

And I feel a lot of confidence. And then I check, you know, and I can check down the list, but I'm not checking down the list to prove that I'm happy or prove that I'm true or prove that I'm practicing. I'm checking the list to check on whether I'm practicing. But after I check on practicing and I get yeses to all those questions, I continue to ask the questions. And I enjoy asking the questions. Am I fearless? Am I generous? Am I happy? You know, do I love everybody? Yes, yes, yes. Oh, great. But tomorrow, or a few minutes later, oops, somebody I don't like, somebody I don't love, somebody I don't feel generous towards. Well, it looks like a little challenge here. But I feel confidence in facing that challenge. But then I don't just say, oh, I know I'm practicing.

[65:19]

think that, but now I think I'm practicing because I'm facing the challenge of loving this person too. I do think I'm practicing when I want to love people I don't yet love. I do. But I don't know that I am. Maybe I don't. And those who do know that they are have slipped into delusion. I mean, those who think that they do or know that they do that may be delusion. I thought Brother Ault brought up an important term, correct practice. It has the meaning of upright with. So maybe that's the basic way. That's a question we can keep asking when we're wondering about is this practice, is it not practice? Well, is it correct practice that I upright with this? Yeah. and then you might feel no, or you might feel yes, but then you still need to know, because knowing might not be upright, but you still could check with uprightness and all these other things to guide yourself, but then that doesn't necessarily lead you to know.

[66:32]

It may be a better question is, how can I be upright with this? Yeah, how can I be upright? How can I be upright? Is this upright? Yeah, it seems clear. Yeah, nice questions. myself lately is when I feel like I'm off or not in accord with my circumstance. I say, I think to myself, no. Whether, not necessarily physically sitting down, but... But even if you don't physically sit down, you probably would be able to, unless you're in a real crowded bus. It just kind of has a way of stopping me from liberating things that are puzzling or confusing or painful. You just sit down in the painful stuff. Yeah. Great. I hope that didn't cut up too many questions.

[67:35]

Just kidding. I don't mind. The discussion about movies reminded me that... Of a good movie? No. But when my children were still quite young, they were about ten or so, The movies that were available for children were just very dull and boring, and we went to a fair number of them because they wanted to, but I remember taking them to see Kurosawa movies and Rodrigo Fellini. One in particular, Juliet of the Spirits. I took my eldest daughter and a friend of hers to see, and 30 years later, I ran into this girl at a memorial with a friend, and I had completely forgotten about it.

[68:44]

And she said, She lived in Point Reyes all of her life and I think she hasn't gotten out much. She remembered this. She said, oh, you, I never forgot you. You took us to this movie in San Francisco. And I said, I did. And she described the movie to me, and I remembered that it was Julia Spirits, which is kind of a bizarre, very lovely movie. And she remembered it. I was hoping that it was a good thing. She seemed to think it was a good thing that I took you to that when you were 12 and things. I know, but she had a really positive feeling about it and a positive feeling about me from that experience. And that really was surprising. You know, and I was also thinking back and kind of surprised that I took kids to see those movies and that I thought it was a good thing.

[69:54]

And now I don't know that I would do that again. Did she turn out all right, or did you ruin her? I think that they're kind of hard to understand for young children. Well, that movie in particular is very much like a fairy tale, though, and it's about a circus situation. So I think it's a lot easier for last year of mine, or even... I thought that when I was a kid. Another thing we did was we took our son, Ben, to Kurosawa movies, but a lot of samurai movies. It was really... Okay, you want to see something? Okay, we'll take you to samurai. And then he made his first student film. His first student film. It was a scene where... where things were about to become, to change, and there was a shot of leaves, you know, leaves gently blowing and quivering.

[71:03]

Twenty-five years later, this is Coruscant. Oh, yeah. Coruscant sensibility. Okay, now Bhagavan, what results from maturing the perfections? Avalokiteshvara. Know that the results also have six aspects. Great resources, going to happy migrations, non-indemnity, non-dissension, happiness and great pleasure, sovereignty over sentient beings, freedom from physical injury, being endowed as powerful.

[72:19]

That is so surprising. Which one? All of them are surprising, or just the last one? That last part of sovereignty over sentient beings. Yeah. And that goes with effort or energy. Sovereignty means a kind of control. The other one says ruler or leader. Great question. Well, I think leader's nice. It's energy, right? You have a lot of energy when that practice matures. Energy or presence? Energy, enthusiasm, courageous effort. Those are the words that you usually use for the fourth health. Diligence. When people are being diligent, there's some energy there.

[73:22]

So, sovereigns are not necessarily bossy. But they sometimes walk out in front of a group of people and say, let's go out of Egypt. OK, let's go. And they follow them out of bondage, even though it might be difficult. But this person got a lot of energy and say, let's follow that energy. Let's, you know, you have this, or let's go clean the cloud hall, you know. Or let's go sit down there. Okay, let's go. And so there's a kind of, that kind of sovereignty, I think. When this energy matures, you can really inspire people. You know, so you say, one, two, three, practice! And everybody goes, yes! That's what we need, some cheerleaders around here.

[74:24]

Well, that's how I feel. I travel these places and I go and I say, let's practice, let's practice. And when I leave, they say, yeah, we're going to start practicing. Thanks. They fade away. Until you come back. Because they need some rooting. The Buddhas are rooting. Come on, you guys, practice, practice, practice. Isn't that what it's like here? No, he's too quiet here. I'm not in a position here to be the rooter because the problem here is that, well, I'm rooting with you guys here. I root in this class, and I root in the corner. Other situations here, it's not clear that people want me to encourage to root for them. They're not rootable. They don't want me to root for them. They are rootable, but they just don't want me to be rooting for them. But you still have a great presence. I mean, you still have a great... But anyway, they don't want me to work it up. But you do work that just by your great presence.

[75:25]

They don't want me to lead. They're not asking me to do it. So if I just... They refer me to be quiet, and that's fine. They'd like me to wash dishes, and I'm happy to do it. I'm not exactly in a position of leading them into... That's all wash dishes tonight. They're not asking me to do that. I've simply done it. Sometimes they are, and when they do, I do it. In Sashin, most of the people in Sashin are not there because they feel they have to be. And so, when I'm being asked to be the leader, then I can... But I'm not always able to if this practice isn't matured. If my energy is... My blood sugar levels dropped. I... But in those situations, usually it does mature. It has matured. Thank you. Okay, so that's what that's about, I think. Not sovereignty like bossing people around, but sovereignty like, okay, I'm going to go to Zazen, you want to come along?

[76:33]

Yes! That sounds like fun. Or the Tom Sawyer kind of thing, right? This is really great to paint this thing. I'm so happy nobody's helping me get to do it all by myself. It's so great. Could I join, please? You know Tom Sawyer? Yeah. But Tom Sawyer, there's also a book called Tom Sawyer. And in that book, it's a shorter book. In that book, he painted, he's supposed to whitewash this fence. and he pretends like it's really fun, and some of the kids come and help him do it. It's so fun. Yeah, actually, they pay him. They pay him. So that he'll let them. The same as with Buddha. Buddha makes us pay him, so he'll let us be enlightened.

[77:36]

Yeah. So tiring, all by himself. That's the way I would understand it, okay? Feel better about that? Yes, I do. Okay. So you're willing to be a sovereign now? Yes. Okay. So great resources come when you practice giving. Happy transmigrations come when you practice precepts. And leadership, being able to lead people in practice It says, and it's also sovereignty over sentient beings. You don't get sovereignty over the Buddhas. They don't need your leadership. They're your leader. And the next one's kind of interesting. Freedom from physical injury. The other one says from torment or physical disturbance.

[78:37]

So it states... There's some relief from that, which I think you've all had a taste of. You've been torn into it, and then space occurred. Even though you're doing the same thing, but when that evaporated, where did it go? Then it comes back. Or it decides which side of the hip it's going to shift to, the right or the left. Right. At that time, I was talking to Suzuki Rush hours and all this pain, and it just went away. And then it came back. But it went away for a long time. I went, where did it go? Did he do some kind of trick on me? It's in this book called Essence of Zen. Anyway, it's about one time I went to see if the Doksans were having a lot of pain in Zazen. So I sat down with him, and we had our little Doksans. But then he said, excuse me. And he left me sitting there in full lotus.

[79:39]

I heard him go upstairs at Sokoji, and I heard him walk down the hall, because it's above the room, and I heard him go into his office, and then I heard an in-service start, and then I heard the meal start. So I sat there during, and I sat there while he went up to do his service and went to meal, and then I came back down, and the whole time I had no pain. And I was sitting there. After a while I noticed, I said, by now I should be in pain because, you know, it's been, usually 40 minutes was hard to get through at that point in the session. But now it's been an hour and a half and no problem. And I start thinking, did he do some kind of thing on me? And this is kind of a trick where he's trying to show me that pain is relative or something like that. It's not like a fixed thing. But it was amazing. I mean, there was sensation, but I was perfectly comfortable in a way. The meal ended, and I hear his feet walking down the hall, come down the stairs, and he comes in the room, and I thought he was going to say, see?

[80:47]

But he went, oh, he'd forgotten me. Oh, you're still here. And he sat down, and we finished our jokes. And then I had a little lunch break. Pardon? Did you ask? No, I didn't. I didn't. I talked about something else, a minor point about the true meaning of the Sandokai. So then I had the break, and then I went back to Sydney. The pain, you know, comes immediately there. So it was very interesting, you know, when you thought... concentration and freedom from injury or torment when it matures. Of course, one of the main things that happens when you give it away. But does that imply some kind of protection?

[81:48]

Because it says injuries. It seems to imply some kind of protection from harm. Yeah, it does, doesn't it? Interesting, huh? Well, part of... Sometimes when we're sitting and we're in pain, we tense up, and sometimes we hurt ourselves when we're sitting, even by pushing ourselves too hard or whatever. But that's not usually when we're concentrated. When we get concentrated, then we probably relax, and our energy starts flowing, and it's very good for our health. Now, that's in a matured state, right? So you can say, okay, okay, So who gets to decide if it's matured? But a lot of people report that when they get concentrated, a lot of things clear up, at least temporarily, in that state. And some people say that you really shouldn't sit so long. Some Chinese medical people don't think it's good that we sit so long before we're actually concentrated because

[82:55]

to sit when you're not relaxed and hurt yourself if you sit for a long time. And that happens. People sometimes push too hard and get sciatic and don't move and blah, blah, blah. Seems like there's stories of the ancestors who were on the verge of death and they just completely healed. Yeah. Concentration does have potentially great healing power and makes us able to take care of ourselves quite well. Our body and mind become very workable and very easy for us to move into skillful responses to situations when we're in a mature state of concentration. The next one's a really interesting note, isn't it? When wisdom matures, one of the results is being renowned as powerful.

[84:04]

Shocking. Powerful. Or having a great clan. Yeah, that's interesting, the two. Great what? Great clan. Having a great clan. A great clan that thinks you're swell. Having a great family that really appreciates you. Interesting. Kind of surprising. But that comes with wisdom. Mature wisdom. Mature, perfect wisdom. Well, that's a great note to start on. It makes sense, doesn't it? It does make sense. Like students. Well, also students, but also a wonderful sangha. You say, a wonderful sangha, great sangha. What could be more wonderful? But the fame part's kind of... But I guess if you're mature and not everybody else in the sangha is mature, you might be famous in that particular community.

[85:10]

Somebody said, you know, also the difference between a famous doctor and a famous movie star. A famous doctor is famous among all his clients. There's lots of clients, and among them, they all really venerate that doctor, but he's not venerated by people who don't know him. So now you have this other kind of fame where people don't know you, know you. Some doctors or teachers are known by the people they know and they're called famous. I don't know if we use famous that way so much anymore. Right, but a little bit they use it that way. Like I'm not known by too many people who don't know me. Some people say you're famous. Mostly by people who know me. And people who tell me I'm famous are people who know me, who hear about me from other people who know me. that they know. So they both know me, and they sometimes translate that back to me, it's famous, but really, she knows me, and she knows me.

[86:19]

And they say, do you know that person? And I say, well, yeah, I do. But they both know me directly, rather than just through each other. There's a little bit of that, other people who don't know me know me, but not much. Which, you know... But also among doctors, you know... I've seen people that he operated on. He was amazing. He did an amazing job. Yeah, right. It's that kind of thing. That's a direct thing. He's one of two people who know how to do that procedure. Yeah, right. So that's, I don't know, I heard that distinction a while ago, and I may say this to you, this isn't exactly a secret, but I sometimes do feel... I guess nicely humbled by the fact that I don't have the other kind of thing. That I'm not one of those people, I'm not like the Dalai Lama. People who never met them know them.

[87:24]

And people who never met anybody who's met them know them. Exactly. But still, I sometimes feel like I'm nothing compared to them in terms of fame. I'm so small. And also, the kind of fame that I have is not the kind of fame that people can shoot. They don't know me. But still, it's a little humbling. I'm just such a little thing. such a little thing compared to big famous people. And again, with the ancestors, it's just like some of them had more powers than the students, but some had like six students and probably no one knew him at the time. One. But yeah, it's like later, later. Was Yojo Kai one of those kind of guys? Maybe, yeah, Yojo. He just took the last, the last part of his life, the last session that he didn't sit,

[88:26]

There were 132 people there. But if he had lived, he would be more famous than Dalai Lama now. He'd do the Dalai Lama scene. He'd be 100 years old with it. He'd be a master in the world if he was alive. If he was alive and had not seen it. But fortunately or unfortunately, he was right on the edge, you know, of this wave of his fame coming. In my beginning mind, it was published only a year before. Not even a year. So he missed that. And there was a while there when he used to give talks to one person. Over at Sokoji, in the room where they had samurai movies, when there would be hundreds of people in the room. And the next day, he would give a talk, and it would be one person. But he'd give the talk anyway. Cool, huh?

[89:31]

Yeah. And Oxon noticed that he did the same preparation for one as he did when he started to have quite a few. Same before. Would I make an announcement? This discussion of fame reminded me. Ty again sent a message. Some people, if you're on his email list, you've already got this. Aside from sending warm greetings from Chicago, he's going to be in the Bay Area the week of May 16th. He's doing the Saturday talk on the 19th at the City Center. And on the 16th, he's got a book event in Berkeley at the Jodo Shinshu Center, that big new building. Some people may have seen it. Because he's got a new book coming out, On Dogon and the Lotus Sutra. So, if you want to see it, I have it back up here. This one's free. And our humble and lean-in I'm about to depart.

[90:32]

Yes. When Ty again comes back, we're leaving town. Oh, you're going on vacation? Yeah, we're leaving on the 16th. And we will be gone over the balance of the month of May. So we'll be here next week. This is Europe? Yeah. Going to spend a few days in New York. Two weeks in France.

[90:55]

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