So you're asking about, you feel that you're in a codependent relationship with someone, with your sons? Yeah, so I think, well, I think that I feel sometimes that people who are in what we're calling codependent relationship, are actually, there's compassion there, often. They really wish the best for the person they feel have this relationship. And so it's a little bit tricky to put the finger on what's off about the relationship. But I think often what's off about it is a lack of dispassion. Another word that often comes up in the discussion is what But it's interesting the word colluding has this dynamic in it too because colluding means colluding.

[01:09]

And colluding means to play with. You're playing along with them. But also playing with people is part of compassion. I think that you have someone and you want to relate to them and you wish them well and you're interacting with them. you have, in some sense, a passion there. You're feeling suffering for them, and you're intensely interested in them. That's part of it. But maybe a lack of dispassion, a lack of, or you should say, maybe what needs to be more calm, and steadiness in the middle of all these strong feelings you have for this person. You have feelings of compassion and pain and also probably fear. It's fairly likely that you feel some fear for their welfare. I think I proposed for your consideration that if you're actually with someone who is at risk of harming themselves or others and you love them and care for them,

[02:20]

if you really can be dispassionate then the fear will subside and then you won't be exactly what I would call codependent anymore. Yeah, expectations So an expectation, okay? You have an expectation. And then again, can you be really calm with that expectation? You know, not be overly influenced by the expectation. You can still have the expectation, that's okay. That's one of the emotions that you're living in the midst of. But can you be present and balanced with that emotion of expectation? And that's very hard sometimes. can be there still and quiet and relaxed with the fear and the expectation.

[03:28]

Then you convey something else to this person and to this relationship. The ultimate, you know, is to understand the truth and embody it. We must be devoted to the welfare of others. So you're devoted to the welfare of these men. Completely devoted to them, yes. But in order to understand, you also must realize there's no men there to be devoted to. There's no men there to be devoted to. That's the dispassionate side. So we're devoted to all beings in this path, but we must also understand that there's no beings to be devoted to. That's pushing this passion to the end. But what you do get is that there are some people there to help.

[04:31]

That you do get. And that, in a case where someone's at risk, that makes you at risk of becoming codependent. if you really think that there's something there to grasp, called your sons. They are an object. They are all sons. Yeah, right. Yeah. No sons can actually be found. And I'm devoted to them anyway. I'm devoted to things that I can't find. And if I can't find things, then the fear will calm down. Yeah, tricky. A necessary trick to learn. But not easy. As you were mentioning, I guess, being more disciplined about being in that space.

[05:42]

Yeah, being more disciplined. Yeah. being more disciplined about being spacious with people you care about. So there you care for them. Maybe expectations and fears arise. You have to be more welcoming and open to all these fears. The fears and the expectations, then they'll knock you down. And then you'll be actually part of the process of the unhealthy process. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, forgetfulness. So then we confess, okay, I forgot. I got distracted. I wasn't skillful. I forgot. And there's reasons for it, but anyway, I accept that I forgot. And now it's time to go back to the basic presence.

[06:47]

And so I feel no shortage in your care for these people. That's fine. It just has to, you have to give up all sentimentality about it. That easy, especially for a mother. Especially a mother at Christmas, if you're into Christmas. In the Christmas culture. Yes. Yes. Through my search and through my look, I have been constantly coming to this page. Nothing to be found. Everything is in total inact. I don't know if you see the white boards, but it just is.

[07:52]

But then I keep going back to the search again. I'm just kind of wondering, why would someone... keeps doing this search for the Seed so clearly. Why? Why? What is that? Yeah, well, do you want me to respond to that? Yeah, what is it? I would suggest you don't spend any more time with that question. Give that question up. Just write it down, give it to me, I'll take care of it for you. You don't have to think... It's not like this. Yeah, I would suggest you forget it, just let go of that, give that away. Let go of it, hand it to me, and forget about that. and concentrate more on the place you are. And don't ask questions about why you're the place you are. But if something arises, give it to me. Just keep giving it to me. Don't spend any more time with it. Just let it come and give it to me. You don't have to come here and just send it to me over, you know, through space. You need to concentrate on being where you are.

[08:56]

And if the question arises, give it away. About why you're the way you are, why you're where you are, just give that away. And be the person. Be the, what do you call it, the searcher? The searching, did you say? Yeah, so just be that. Concentrate on being that. Why am I this way? And why are people like me, like, forget that. Give me that. I'll take care of it. I don't have to deal with it. And you just be that. Completely, okay? And then, of course, dispassionately. Here I am, the questioning machine. I'm calmly this type of being right now. You'd be that completely. This why thing is going to distract you from completely being that way. If you can completely be that way, which means, yeah, which means requires dispassion in order to be completely that way. then compassion will be born fully at that place.

[10:06]

Okay? That's not easy, but keep sending those distractions to me. And everybody else, send me your distractions, I'll take care of them for you. And you can just do what you really want to do. Take care of what you don't want to do. How do you take care of your own distractions then? Do you have a technique? Come here. Please. Please sit down. How do you take care of your own distractions? Do you have a trick or a technique? What would you guess I do with mine? You divert your attention to... No. No? Guess again. Work through it. Yeah, how do I work through it? If you see it as fear, then I assume that you're going to work through the fear.

[11:10]

Yeah, how do I work through it? That is a little bit of a mystery to me. Yeah, so guess how I work through it. Sit with it, look at it. Yeah, right. Sit with it, look at it. What can I do with it? I'll turn it around. Yeah, turn it around, play with it. Yeah. And give it to you. And mark it with a T. And put it in the oven for you and me. Sure. Yeah. That's what I would do with fear. For example. And everything. How about you? I sometimes am successful and sometimes not. Yeah. Good. I'm glad you're sometimes successful. Here's to success. Here's to failure.

[12:11]

We toast everything here. I've been wondering where you are. Now I see you're here. Yes. Have you been here all along? All along. Oh, great. Did you want to sing a song to me? I always had a song that I thought you should sing. Okay. What is it? What is it? On a clear day... And you'll see who you are. Thank you. Would you send me the, if there's more words, would you send it to me? Yeah, it's a Barbra Streisand song. Oh, Barbra Streisand. You can really go out with it.

[13:17]

Go, go, go, go. On a clear day, I'll raise and look around you, and you'll see who you really are. Thank you. The glow of your being outshines every star. You'll feel part of every mountain. You can hear from far and near a world you've never seen. It's a good one. I like that song. Do you like that song? But my question was, now that I think about my question, is looking the other way the same as dispassion? You mean you're looking at someone and they're suffering? They're suffering and... And you're feeling suffering looking at their suffering? Yeah. And you say it's looking the other way the same as dispassion? Yeah. I think part of dispassion in its mature form is... So, looking the other way might be cool, but...

[14:24]

I would say looking the other way, but still really being completely present with it. But just sort of pretending like, oh, I can't stand this. That might be helpful. It might encourage the other person. Because sometimes if you're suffering and you're completely present with it, or if you're suffering and completely present with it, the other being, the suffering or the person, might feel overwhelmed by the present. So it might be good to sort of like be playful and say, I can't stand this, the gravity of the situation, as a way to like be you in it. To be playful with it. Yeah. So if looking away is a kind of playful way to be with it, that might be quite helpful. rather than, hey, I'm the big presence here, and I can stand to face this suffering. But the suffering might feel like, well, I don't want to be here. So then you could say, well, I actually... Both run away together. Like that story about my daughter, you know, we're in the bathtub, and she says, let's go in the kitchen and get the dishes and put them in Mommy's bed and break them.

[15:32]

And then I say, yeah, let's do that. And she says, no. Yeah, so sometimes joining the fear, you know, like I can't stand this, sometimes that's a way to actually get everybody to jump into it. And if you look the other way with not saying anything, is that kind of a covert way to not, you know what I mean, like you just go up? In this creative process, anything's possible as what might be skillful. So I don't have a fixed thing for what it will look like. We don't know what it will look like, but it emerges from this place of calm and giving up expectations of what compassion is supposed to look like. You may have ideas about what compassion looks like, that's fine. It doesn't look like, that's fine. Then give them up. That's how to realize compassion. If you want to be cruel, then hold on to ideas of compassion and you'll be successful at cruelty. So I think the looking away could be kind of holding on.

[16:37]

It could be, yeah. It could be a way I'll be able to hold on. But it also could be a gesture of, hey, I'm looking away from my attachment to this idea about what's right. Yeah. Is there another way to look at it? Yes, there's many other ways. Possibly, though, it's ignoring the issue. Yeah, it's possibly ignoring the issue. Ignoring the issue to me doesn't mean... No, it doesn't. No, dispassion is not ignoring, but dispassion... No, I'm saying, excuse me. Yeah. It was just her point of saying, if I ignore it, is that dispassion? I don't think it is myself, but that's the way that I understand it. Right, well, she said it. She said that's the part she's asking, but I'm saying... that you're ignoring it, but not really ignoring it. You're just looking away, but it's not really ignoring it. It's just a way to be... Sometimes you can be closer to someone when you look away. You know, you're looking... Sometimes I look at people and... but they don't feel close to me.

[17:42]

I feel like really close to them, like my grandson, right? There he is having breakfast. My little guy. I go down, sit across the breakfast table and look at him, you know, adoringly. He starts wrinkling his forehead. He says, would you please stop staring at me? So then I look away. I look away, look away, and, you know, give him a break. I'm not going anyplace. I'm just following orders of the little guy. So I look away. But it's my way to get closer to him. And I look away, then he has a little sense of, I've got power over this guy. He's not going to like... But I'm not going in a waiting place. I'm just playing with him and following his instructions, which seem to be appropriate right now. So then after I look away, he says, he's got a cousin named Gabriel. Do you think Gabe has trouble following instructions? Anyway, I'm with him, but it's too much.

[18:56]

My devotion maybe has been dispassionate. Maybe it's slightly overbearing. Like, here is the guy who loves you. A little bit like, oh, get off me, man. Give me some space from all this adoration. So maybe he's saying, hey, this is not really dispassionate, granddaddy. But the way he puts it is, would you stop staring at me? Okay, let's be more dispassionate here. Let's, like, lighten up, look away. So he says, okay, now I can play with this guy. So then he invites me back to the conversation by asking me a question about his cousin. So, yeah, we're not... Ignorance is not... Ignoring... But looking like you're looking away... could be a way to express flexibility with this adoration. So another way to work. This passion with your adoration. I love you so much.

[19:57]

I'm so devoted to you. And also, you know, fire me. You know, I'll be fired. You know, no longer necessary. Bye-bye. Well, it's like a barbell. You know, it's either like, did passion look away, or just put in that zinger that just say, hey, you know, wake up. And then that gets a whole other set of reactions. Right. Delicate balance. Yeah, it's a delicate balance, like tightrope walking. Yes. At various altitudes. Did he really do it? He did do it at the World Trade Center. Yeah. I think around 1974, the building wasn't quite completed, and he walked one way or the other, back and forth, and danced, and laid down, and he had a real nice time. Wow. Yeah, wow. Thank you. You're welcome. There's a movie about it. You can watch it. Seriously? Well, I don't know. Seriously, playfully, there's a movie about this guy and his friends who wanted to help him with his passion.

[21:04]

And everybody wants to help you with your passion if you're dispassionate about it. like Tom Sawyer. He had a passion for not working. And he was dispassionate. So he got everybody else to do his work for him. And there's some bodhisattvas like that. They're really passionate about getting everybody else to do the work of saving all beings. And if they're dispassionate, they get everybody to do that, which is their passion, is to get everybody else to practice. But he didn't just say, I quit, I'm not going to paint the fence. So I'm not going to paint the fence. The thing is to make people think that painting the fence is really cool.

[22:06]

you know, and actually say, I'll let you paint the fence if you pay me. So I could start that mountain, requiring you to pay me in order to... Maybe that would help. I'll think about that. You already had your chance. Anybody else have a question? One, two, maybe who hasn't asked their question. Anybody? You can come. Come. You can sit here. Thank you. Obviously, with a conversation like this this morning, stir some of the things about passion. And as a, I guess as a quasi-artist, we have a question about there's passion and then there's the destructiveness that comes with passion in life.

[23:23]

And I think that the artists that you mentioned, like Michelangelo or Shakespeare, they all had tremendous support for what they were doing. Michelangelo destroyed that marble. Well, not only that, but you didn't mention all of the pieces. as you walk to see the David that were not finished for one reason or another. And I think I see what, I mean, I'm not sure that I see what you guys are doing here, but you certainly, being a neighbor just down the road, I see that you have tremendous support here for just sitting and what you guys do here is really that quietly and you're extremely passionate about what you do. And I find as kind of a quasi artist and stuff, I've also had the destructive side. of being passionate about something and being able to see a little success. What do you mean by the destructive side? I think people that are passionate about things, for example, could find themselves addicted to mind and mood-altering substances, and they have to deal with that along the way.

[24:28]

Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying. That's why you need dispassion. Because otherwise your passion... Another word for passion is Emotion you can barely, it's barely tolerable. So some people have a barely tolerable motivation or desire to create a work of art and they don't have the tolerance, the patience and the tranquility, the dispassion in order to cope with this passion. Either they give up the passion or they take some kind of something to calm them down because they can barely stand it. So that's exactly what I'm talking about. That's why you need passion to be balanced with dispassion. Devotion to some beings, to work, some work to help beings, you need that balanced with tranquility, and ultimately balanced with wisdom, which is that this whole project is unfindable.

[25:34]

It's not that it's not important. It's so important, I need to realize that it can't be The real protection of compassion is understanding that the beings and the compassion of self cannot be found. It doesn't have any graspable nature. That will protect from all kinds of harm, and it will allow compassion to flourish. So we need to develop the ability to be in the intensity and the pain of our passions, to be able to be, again, in that quiet place in the moment. That place we can be of our passions. But if we don't know how to be present and still, we're in danger of doing destructive things which are our way to cope with our passions.

[26:36]

are good passions. So some people take drugs because it's so intolerable for them to work to help people. They care so much. Which is not totally off, it's just that it's destructive. Whereas being calm would allow them to do what they want to do. Which makes this a good spot. Yeah, and people want a spot like that where people can come and have a space to cope with their passions and learn how to become in coping with their passions. People want people to do that. People want people to learn that, so they support this place for that purpose. People want to come here and use it for that purpose in their own practice. But in the meantime, It's also good to help anybody else who wants to calmly work with, dispassionately work with their passions. Then we can be with our compassion.

[27:42]

In other words, then we can be compassionate. Compassion is to be able to be with these passions, just be there. Listen to them, feel them, live with them, dance with them, walk with them, sit with them, bow with them. That's the Buddha way. Most people either try to stay away from those passions because they don't know how to walk with them, or they just keep veering away from them in this non-dispassionate way Right? Very interesting perspective. There's a little bit more time before I'm being requested to say goodbye.

[28:44]

Please come. Not you. Somebody new. Nobody new? Please come. When you asked that person, Homa, I think to give you those... Those whys. Those whys. I was reminded of the Bob Dylan song. I don't know the verses, but I think the refrain is, Come on and give it to me. I'll keep it with mine. And that song has always... You're affected really strongly, really strongly when he says, come on, give it to me. I'll keep it with mine. It was like to find somebody who will be like that for you.

[29:48]

Anyway, it saves lives. That's what it felt like. So I didn't know if you'd do the song. I don't know. So somebody please give it to me. Somebody must be a Bob Dylan fan and know that one. Emily, do you have it? You have it on your iPad. Come and sing it. If you know the words, the way you say it will be... Do you know it? No. You just do the instrumentation? No. I need some help here. Okay, so the non-chorus part. I can't help it if you might think I'm odd if I say I'm loving you not for what you are but what you're not.

[30:48]

Everybody will help you. I can't help if you think I'm odd for loving you for what you're not. Ish. And... And... And then it says, everybody will help you. Some people are very kind. But if I can save you any time, come on now, give it to me. I'll keep it with mine. I'll see you next time. She said she'll sing it next time. How about you? No? Okay. Is there any songs you would like to sing today for us? I can't think of any? Okay. I'm not clear what you mean by giving it away.

[32:05]

I understand looking at the emotions. I think I understand looking at the emotions, being with the emotions, feeling the emotions, but I'm not... Well, you're not holding on to it. You know, you're not like, you've got this why. Oh, there's kind of like, why, why, why? And then there's like... Like milking it. Don't milk it. Don't milk it, okay. Donate it to, you know, your local whatever, who probably will not be milking it. It's your cow. But they can take care of it for you, and they can take care of it. I'll put it on the field with the rest of them and keep an eye on it for you. If you need to know, come back, I'll tell you what your question was. But you probably, you know, won't be coming back for that one. You'll be coming, bringing it more. Do I know the Red Rib Robin? I know that. You missed it. You missed it?

[33:06]

Oh, well, thank you for missing it. I missed it when you did it. Oh, you missed me doing it? Yes. Oh, well, thank you. Maybe just be patient. It may happen. The Red Red Robin is, as you know, quite nearby. The Red Red Robin is quite nearby. Any other offerings that you'd like to make? A quiet assembly today. Yes, did you have something? Please come. Can you say more about not finding it? What do you mean about not being able to find it? Well, like, for example, you. All right? If I look for you, I think I can find you. But if I actually look more carefully, I'll realize that I can't actually find you.

[34:08]

All I can find is what you're not. But then if you look at all the things that you're not individually, I could never find any of them. We say, you know, all things are marked by emptiness. They don't have an... There's not a... You know, there's not an evenness in evil. There's Eva, that's a word specifying who you are, identifying you, but the word Eva is not who you are. Well, then there's a body, there's emotions, there's earrings, there's a lot of things that come together at the moment to create this thing called Eva. But I can't find Eva. ...ears, eyes, nose, tongue, and stuff like that. If I look for them, I can't find them. Everything is empty of own being.

[35:09]

And if you start looking for anything, you never find, you can't find anything, except if you're very... and superficial in your investigation, and just say, well, I know she's over there somewhere. But if I actually say where, and you start telling me, I would have some questions about whether you actually found her yet. And such investigation will... from being caught by our passions. And then we don't even have to practice dispassion. Just the way we see things will be the same as dispassion. devoted to empty beings, beings we can't find. What makes us see things the way they appear to us?

[36:13]

Well, there's various stories of the causes and conditions that lead to human beings being born with a mind that sees things as existing separately from ourselves. We think maybe when we were very young, we think they are ourselves, but we still think they exist on their own. We don't see them as dependently related to other things. We have that way of seeing things as isolated and independent. It's our inherent ignorance of interdependence. is our inherent ignorance of the truth of things, that they're interdependent and empty of own being. We're born that way. And there's various, I would say, logical theories of what was involved in creating beings who can imagine this. There's some usefulness in this imagination. And there's some usefulness in believing that it's true.

[37:13]

And there's more and more awareness that this belief is the root problem of existence, this ignorance. Well, someone theory would be it promotes reproductive success. That would be the the theory of evolution, that it's an adaptation, it has become an adaptation that is powerfully conducive to reproduction. And if someone doesn't have that adaptation, they're relatively less likely than the one who has it to be able to reproduce.

[38:17]

The one who has the tricks to get the other person to be of service to them, rather than promoting their own biological reproduction. Because they don't have this idea of independent self, so why not help this person? So those who don't believe it, those who study it and don't believe it because they see its problems and see its illusion, they become servants of those who do believe it, who are miserable and violent and frightened. So the bodhisattvas can help those to study it and give it away. Every time it comes, make it a gift rather than holding onto it, which is our habit. Do you want to come and sing it with me?

[39:27]

You don't? Do you want to come and sing it with me? You don't want to sing it if you don't know the words? I'll sing a little. Okay. You sure? Sure, I'll sing a little bit. Okay. All righty. You're going to lead. Yeah, come on over here. I'll lead. Sit right next to me here. Yeah. How much will you give me for this guy? Okay. 20 bucks? Will you accept 20 bucks? What did you say? Nah. Let's sing instead. One, two, three, four. I thought I was late. You want to lead? I'll follow you. No. I just want to get the tone down.

[40:31]

Okay, ready? One. When the red, red robin comes

[40:39]

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