In the little room where I formally meet with you, there's a statue of Shakyamuni Buddha. And in front of the statue, there's some words which come from a Shakyamuni Buddha mantra. And the mantra is, Mune Mune Maha Muneye. Svaha. And I think Muni means silent one. So his name, one of his names is Shakya Muni, the silent one of the Shakya clan. And yet, it seems was quite talkative.

[01:02]

Talked with humans and gods quite a bit. I welcome your expression and And you express yourself. And one of the ways you express yourself is to think. Express yourself by thinking. And some people tell me verbally that sometimes they think when I'm talking, shh, be quiet. And sometimes people just say, I feel a need for you to stop talking. I'm not sure what it says on the Dharma Talk.

[02:21]

Do you know, Catherine? Sometimes in the classes I think I didn't say, I hesitated to say, be quiet. And then she said, but I also see that it's your job to talk. So one could say it's my job to talk. And one who says it's your job to talk could also say to me, please be quiet. Even though it's my job to talk, I welcome you to say, please, how do you feel? Please talk.

[03:32]

Yeah, please talk. And then when I start talking, feel free to say, time to stop. I've mentioned this a number of times, that I do not walk around talking. I'm actually kind of a quiet guy. But then when people ask me to talk, sometimes it's good to ask me to stop. So I welcome you to, if you feel you'd like me to stop, I welcome you to express yourself. And if I stop talking, when you ask me to stop talking, and you've had enough of that, you can ask me to start talking again. Now I have been talking about causation and proposing to you that wholehearted action, which is selfless action, realizes the Buddha way.

[05:15]

wholehearted, selfless heart. A heart that's selfless, a selflessness that has a heart in the middle of it. A great void filled with heart realizes the Buddha way. The point of the Buddha way is to realize the vast emptiness filled with compassion. We have this room, which some people might call a dojo.

[06:32]

We say zendo. What's that other word you thought of, Doris? Playpendo. Playpendo. This is a playpendo, a zendo, and a dojo. Dojo is... the Chinese word which means the way, enlightenment place. Tao or do, enlightenment, jo, enlightenment place. This is an enlightenment place. So in this dojo, I invite you And I think everyone else invites you to come in here and give yourself completely to being in this room in the present moment.

[07:36]

To give yourself one minute to whatever posture you're in when you're walking wholeheartedly give yourself to walking for the welfare of all beings. When you're doing walking meditation, when you walk in here, have it be walking meditation. Have your walking be wholehearted walking for the welfare of all beings. It's that way here. And when sitting, you're invited and encouraged to sit wholeheartedly, to sit selflessly, to learn to sit wholeheartedly, to learn to sit so wholeheartedly sitting.

[08:41]

for the sake of realizing the Buddha way for the welfare of all beings. This room is a good place to do that. I'm sure many people welcome you to practice that way here. Someone told me that he tried to practice wholeheartedly, but he got in trouble, got all tangled up or something like that. He said, all I can do is just be mindful of being up and relaxed. And I said, great. And please do that wholeheartedly. That sounds wonderful. And if you don't want to do it wholeheartedly, then just relax. Wholeheartedly? Don't do it wholeheartedly.

[09:44]

That's a kind of story of causation. The cause of enlightenment of the Buddha way is wholehearted practice. And if you're sitting, it's wholehearted sitting. If you're walking, it's wholehearted walking. Wholehearted standing. If you're talking, wholehearted talking. talking where you're not holding anything back, and you're giving everything to talking. If you're breathing, wholehearted breathing, giving everything. If you're thinking, wholehearted thinking, so wholehearted that it's selfless. that the thinking is selfless, that there's not somebody in addition to the thinking, that the thinking is not trying to get anything or get rid of anything.

[11:06]

Pure giving, where giver, receiver and gift are inseparable and cannot be apprehended and are not apprehended. One way to talk about ignorance is that there's a kind of ignorance which is innate. And that kind of ignorance is an active ignoring of dependent core arising. It's an active ignoring of the middle way. It's an active ignoring of wholeheartedness. there's an innate tendency for the mind to ignore, to turn away from awareness of the pinnacle arising.

[12:14]

For the mind to ignore the true Dharma, which is, can be expressed as, one of the ways to express it is the way Shakyamuni did in India. He expressed the true Dharma as dependent co-arising. He used that word pada. The true dharma is dependent co-arising. And there's a tendency among beings to ignore that, to look away from that, and to create an image of something substantial and permanent and independent. and to project that image upon dear little true Dharma. To project that image upon dependent co-arising, which is before us all day. To put this image of substantial, permanent, independent upon an impermanent, interdependent, insubstantial wonder.

[13:36]

the Dharma. You can see it at your local body and mind. It's the way things usually look. Like somebody's out there, separate from you. Like the floor is there, solidly exhausted, flowing. Not a flowing floor, not a pulsating floor, not a jumping and leaping floor, not an insubstantial floor, not a floor that depends on you and you depend on. No. A solid, self-existent, permanent floor. Of course, you know it'll someday go away, but right now there's an image of permanence projected upon it, and you can walk on top of that image Which is quite convenient, so... Like that famous story that I tell, and I hadn't told for a little while, so I tell it again.

[14:48]

Another Woody Allen story. Or at least he gets credit for all stories. The guy goes, he says, and the guy tells the psychiatrist. He's seeing the psychiatrist, but he tells the psychiatrist that his brother... Maybe it's not really his brother. That his brother... What? Huh? His brother thinks he's a... His brother thinks he's a chicken. The psychiatrist says, why don't you tell him he's not a chicken? He says, because I need the eggs. So would... Would you be able to walk on the Zendo floor if you let it be insubstantial and dependent? Well, I don't know. I'd rather not take a chance here. Maybe after I get out of the Zendo, I'll look back at it and look at it that way. Suzuki Roshi frequently said that the point of Zazen is to extend it outside the zendo.

[16:14]

So I would expand on that and say that in the zendo we can find perhaps a moment where we just wholeheartedly sit. And actually that's the only place to find it, is in a moment. where you like 100% to sit in here without thinking of tomorrow or even later today or yesterday, but completely give yourself to the body when the body is given to you. And that's, of course, put away right now. But Suzuki Roshi was emphasizing that this wonderful practice of wholehearted sitting in the zendo, really the point is to be able to do it when you go out of the zendo, to show people wherever you go how to be wholehearted, the streets of the world.

[17:24]

But as you know, it's very difficult even in the zendo with all the support to completely wholeheartedly sit in the moment. to sit so fully in this activity. Now, if by chance there ever was the case that it was realized, how wonderful, and also, that's not the end of the story. Now, now, that there's been a moment of wholeheartedness, now, give it away so that you can walk out of here and receive it again, and give it away. And receive it again, and give it away. A few days ago, I guess... One... Two... Was it just two days ago that Amy, at the end of class, asked about wholeheartedness?

[18:30]

And she said that there was a nanosecond there where she felt wholehearted. And actually, I thought she felt okay. Is that right? For a moment? What? I can't hear you, what? And so anyway, I said something about it away or letting go of it. And then someone came and asked me, what do you mean to let go of it? And then we talked for a while and he said, well do you mean like not be attached to it? Is that what you mean? And I said, yeah. So when the moment comes and wholehearted one moment coming, that's great. And then don't be attached to it. Don't abide there. Now in a couple of days this retreat is going to change into a non-retreat.

[19:40]

It's going to be like no retreat, zero. So give up wholeheartedness and find it again in no retreat. That would be really great. So part of not abiding in wholeheartedness, part of it would be to be very non-sectarian and all-inclusive. But still, wholeheartedness admits of being critical about, critical in the sense of noticing and calling it for what it is, half-heartedness.

[20:49]

Half-heartedness, one form of half-heartedness is the ignoring wholeheartedness. So one manifestation of ignorance is half-heartedness. Ignoring the truth, yeah, ignoring the truth can still be observed and it could to like be aware of it and criticize it as that's not, that's seeing permanence and substance in things. Like, this sect, this practice, this school is wonderful and that's a substantial, permanent, independent wonderful. So if one is actually practicing wholeheartedly, one can still see a projection. One can still see beings who believe in substance,

[21:56]

and permanence and independence. And that would be good to find a way to skillfully at the right moment criticize that, point that out, educate the situation, whether it's you who's doing it or somebody else. And one of the kind of funny things in the Buddhist environment which I think Alec brought up was that there's a school there's a sect or a school in the Buddhist world which is a school devoted supposedly following the teachings of the Lotus Sutra and it criticizes schools that don't follow the Lotus Sutra. And one of the schools it criticizes is, I think, maybe Soto Zen. But come and tell me that, I would say, don't criticize us.

[23:03]

We follow the Lotus Sutra. We're on your side. But I feel sometimes that the criticism is actually made from an anti-Lotus Sutra heart. It's made... It's imagining that those who follow the Lotus Sutra are substantial descendants of those who don't. So, it's tricky because, again, wholeheartedness admits of critiquing half-heartedness but it must be done in such a way that the half-heartedness isn't into a substantial thing. So if somebody believes in substantial things, don't make them into a substantial thing that believes in substantial things.

[24:09]

Wholeheartedly practice with those who believe in permanence, who believe in their mind's projection of and substance and independence. The Lotus Sutra, and I would say the Buddha, the Buddhadharma, is super non-sectarian. So again, he is bowing to Allah wholeheartedly. If someone is offering incense to Jesus, if someone is reading the Torah, if someone is practicing Hinduism, or any school, I would say that is the Buddha way. It doesn't belong to anybody in the universe. Nobody owns it. Everybody's included.

[25:14]

And another is that those some people who are devoted to the Lotus Sutras seem to like actually turn the teaching upside down and become very sectarian. It's just an amazingly wonderful opportunity for the sattvas. Such people are prime candidates for enlightenment. So once again, wholeheartedness is nonsectarian and still able to critique. Wholeheartedness and nonwholeheartedness able to test wholeheartedness, able to probe beings and help beings find wholeheartedness by helping them express and see and find their own half-heartedness and be completely upright and relaxed with their half-heartedness.

[26:42]

And wholeheartedness does not abide in any form or any ceremony. Wholehearted practice of upright sitting does not abide in the ritual form of upright sitting. It uses the form of upright sitting, the ritual of upright sitting, to show that it's not abiding in it. Anybody outside this room can abide in upright sitting. I'm a Zen student, but I don't abide in upright sitting. I occasionally go in the Zendo and sit, and when I sit, I don't abide in upright sitting. I would say, great. Come in the Zendo now and sit upright and prove that you don't abide in it when you're doing it. And maybe they do. They sit down and they say, watch me not abide in this posture.

[27:47]

One, two, three. And then I just sit like, just really sit still and quietly. And I look at God, you're sitting there and you're not abiding in it. Amazing. And I say, I told you. See, I can wholeheartedly sit without abiding in sitting. It's possible. You won't regret it.

[29:17]

She'll never forget. Live wholeheartedly. One way to study causation is to introduce it and walk forward into the teachings about it. Another way to do it is to introduce it over and over and over and over to go deeper. So I just thought I might mention to you a little introduction, some teachings about causation.

[30:23]

So for me, the pentacle arising seems to be the middle way. To me, the pinnacle arising seems to be the way Buddha presented selflessness. He wanted people to understand selflessness, non-self, and the way he presented it was as causation. And he had a disciple Arjuna, who lived, I guess, in the second century of the common era in India. And that disciple wrote a text called the Fundamental Verses of the Middle Way. And the first verse, translated into English, is neither from itself, nor from another,

[31:49]

nor from both, nor without a cause. Does anything, whatever, arise? Or no existence whatsoever are evident anywhere that arise from themselves. from others, from both, or from a non-cause. This is the first verse of the work on the Middle Way. This verse refutes the theory of causation. One theory of causation is things are caused by themselves. Another theory is things are caused by something outside themselves, external.

[32:53]

Another theory is they're caused by both. And another theory is they arise without a cause. These are refuted in this. Dependent co-arising is not self-cause. which is also eternalism. It's not other cause, which is annihilationism. It's not both, which is nonsense. And it's not no cause, of course. The pinnacle rising is not nonsense. It is orderly, truth, wholeheartedness. When I, a long time ago, read that Karaka, not from itself, not from other, not from no cause, does anything, anywhere, whatever, exist or arise, I thought, oh, that's wholehearted sitting.

[34:11]

That's a verbal description of sitting upright. That's the radiant middle way when we're sitting. When you're sitting. Not from itself, not from another, not from both. No cause does this sitting arise. This is the radiance of selflessness. I'm not asking you to think about sitting. I'm just inviting you and begging you to sit wholeheartedly. If you have any trouble sitting wholeheartedly, if there's anything you're thinking about other than sitting wholeheartedly, You might think about Nargajuna's advice.

[35:17]

This is not caused by itself. Nothing else is causing this. Nothing outside this is causing this. Not both. And this is not happening for no cause. This is just wholehearted sitting. everything is given to this sitting now. And to me it looks like everybody here is really close to wholehearted sitting. There may be some slight deviations between what your sitting is and wholehearted sitting. But it looks like it's pretty slight, which is great. But of course, the slight deviation can be a big problem. So we need to give up the slight holding back from wholeheartedly sitting. We kind of need to give it completely up with no holding back.

[36:31]

But once again, if there is any holding back, be honest and gracious about it. Be gentle with it. Be tender with it. And it can drop away for a nanosecond. And you won't regret it. People won't forget it. I betcha. I haven't issued this offer recently. The offer was, if anybody finds an independent self, bring it to me, show it to me, and if you really have one, I'll give you a dollar. And I had... Huh? A dollar for each one. A dollar for each one. And I haven't adjusted that for inflation.

[37:37]

This was quite a while ago, I offered it. I haven't... I mean, I don't want to, like, encourage you to lie. But now I would say, if anybody finds, oh no, now I would say, if anybody finds, if anybody realizes wholeheartedness and regrets it, come to me and I'll give you a dollar. Then maybe you won't. But anyway, so far, I'm offering that to you. Actually, I'm offering a dollar to anybody who comes to me and said, I was wholehearted and I'm really sorry I was. It was a big mistake. I'm never going to do that again. Now, of course, if they say that, I get to ask them what it was like. And I say, that wasn't really wholehearted. This is what it would be like. Now, if you find that and you regret it, come here and I'll pay you big bucks, dollars. Maybe I'll give two dollars.

[38:37]

Two dollars. You don't need any money for that. I'll give you two dollars if you regret it. But you have to prove that it was really wholeheartedness. And that that's what you regret. And I'm offering this with confidence because nobody I've ever met in my life has been wholehearted and regretted it. And regret it. Because when you get close, you get scared often. Because you feel like the floor is going to go away. I'm going to lose the floor. I'm going to lose myself. No, you won't. Don't worry. You will be fine. Just when you get close, you think about, what's going to happen if I give everything now, and I don't hold back anything just for future reference? What if I get that last little shred?

[39:39]

What will happen? I'm not there yet. I can see you would regret that. Regret the fear and all the stuff that happens at the edge where you're still holding back a little. In some ways, that's worse than holding back a lot. More painful, maybe. I can understand that, but I never saw anybody who regretted wholeheartedness. But still, I offer a reward to anybody who does regret it. It has to be the real thing. And the real thing is available. And someone might say to me, as they do about a number of things I say, do you really believe that? And I would say, well, I do believe it, but not like I believe it like it's a substantial, independent, permanent thing.

[40:48]

I don't believe it that way. I believe it as a basis for my life. I believe it as a basis for living. That's the way I believe it. And now let's see what happens. Where are you going to put your chip? And some of you might say, well, I'm not going to bet. I'm not going to put my chip down. I'm going to hold it. I'll put down half my chip on this. No, no, no. Where are you going to put your chip? Put my chip on my shoulder, yeah. Which one? We have no cushions here to... We need some cushions to put on this insubstantial flowing floor.

[42:58]

I love it. Is this one of the old ones? Oh, this is a nice cushion. Yeah, very nice. And there's a microphone that goes with it. And there's a person which goes with the microphone in the cushion, an indestructible person, who's going to come and quietly question My question is... My question is, how does putting on the robe save all beings?

[44:06]

That's your question? Well, when you ask that question, do you feel like you're an ancient Chinese Zen master? I don't know. There once was an ancient Chinese Zen master who said, when the bell rings, why we put on this robe? What do you say? To save all beings is what I say. Yeah, to save all beings is what I say. I say to save all beings. That's the reason for putting the robe on in this school.

[45:10]

And that Chinese Zen master, when he asked that question, I think that's why he if the monks knew, if his monks knew. They put the robe on when the bell rang. He was wondering if his monks knew the reason for putting that robe on was to save all beings, was to teach the Dharma by putting on the robe, not put on the robe and then put on the robe as teaching the Dharma and then teach it another way by taking the robe off. When the bell rings, why do we take the robe off? To save all beings. He was asking that. Asking you, when you ask that question, do you feel like you're enacting this tradition? Yes. Good. He said yes, by the way.

[46:13]

But the question is... Do you intend to continue to enact this tradition? You hope to agree. For me, it's kind of a conundrum how does putting on the robe save all beings? It's a conundrum. Well, you aren't trying to grasp how, are you? No, but I'd like to have faith that... the statement, wearing the Tathagata's teaching, saving all beings. If that statement is a basis upon which you put the robe on, then you have faith in that statement. Some people hear that, wearing the robe, wearing the Buddha's teaching, saving all beings.

[47:19]

They think, yeah, right. But do they act upon that? If you put the robe on it as acting upon that, that is the faith. That is the faith of the people who have asked this question more than a thousand years ago. Zen masters asked that question and answered that question now for more than a thousand years they've been asking that question and responding to that question while they put the robe on based on that teaching. If you put the robe on on some other basis, I don't know what it would be like, I believe that I should go along with the program here. I believe that that would be a good thing to do since the other people are putting it on. Or I want to wear it, so I probably should put it on. That's another belief. But that doesn't exclude I'm putting this robe on to save all beings.

[48:28]

And so I probably should do it wholeheartedly. Say I'm putting on this robe because I've heard a teaching that putting on this robe saves all beings, but with some question, with the feeling of not understanding that teaching. And also I assume it's not limited to putting on the robe, it could also be closing the door or turning off the light, opening the door. Opening the door, saving all beings. Opening the door, turning the Dharma wheel to save all beings. So this way of practice is a way of practice which was recommended in India, you know, More than 2,000 years ago, this kind of practice was recommended.

[49:34]

To open the door, to turn the knob, as turning the Dharma wheel to save all beings. I think the question comes because... And you say, did you say, I want to believe that? Or did you say you want to understand that? I'd like to understand that. Yeah, understanding it comes, I would say understanding will come when you turn a doorknob wholeheartedly, for whatever reason you say, but it wouldn't make sense that I would turn the doorknob wholeheartedly in order to turn the Dharma wheel. It wouldn't make sense to turn the Dharma wheel half-heartedly, would it? Can you turn it half-heartedly? You could think that. It wouldn't make sense. It would be contradictory. Right? I... You probably heard the story before, a young boy whose father was a Soto Zen priest was going to go to Eheji to train.

[50:36]

And his father says, when you go there, when you go there, you might get a chance to ring the big bell. They have a boncho there, like this one, but even bigger. He said, when you get there, you may have a chance to ring it. And when you ring it, before you bow, I mean, before you ring the bell, you bow. He said, and every time you bow to ring the bell, understand that the Dharma wheel of the great Buddhas is turning. So this boy went there, and he practiced that way. When he bowed, he he also saw the Dharma wheel, the inconceivable Dharma wheel turn with his bow and he rang the bell. And when he rang the bell, when the abbot of Heiji heard the bell ring, he said, and his attendant found out.

[51:46]

Because he could hear. this wholeheartedness in the bell. He could tell that this monk was ringing the bell wholeheartedly. The monk, you know, may have also been able to tell. I don't know. But the point is to open the door, to sit down, to stand up, to speak wholeheartedly. And then you'll understand what the Buddhas understand. I was going to say that it feels like maybe it would help to do it wholeheartedly if I understood that it was saving all beings. Definitely, it would help. Also, if you understand that in order to save all beings we must enter into wholeheartedness, that might encourage us to enter into wholeheartedness.

[52:51]

So that would be nice if you once understand that. And then you actually entered and then you have even more confidence. You kind of verify that confidence by actually giving yourself completely based on that sense that this is necessary. I haven't heard any other, the various schools, even the schools who criticize each other, even the schools that criticize Zen, don't say that you should half-heartedly recite the Lotus Sutra. No, they say wholeheartedly recite the Lotus Sutra. The Lotus Sutra says wholeheartedly recite the Lotus Sutra. But the Lotus Sutra says wholeheartedly sit, wholeheartedly walk. It says when you walk, walk as saving all beings. That's the way the Buddha walks. So when you walk that way, you're enacting the Lotus Sutra, you're enacting the Buddha, you're enacting the ancestors, and also you're pretending.

[53:59]

But you're pretending to walk wholeheartedly. And if you're pretending, you'll be open to some feedback on that pretending. Like some would say, Vajra, you didn't really walk wholeheartedly. And you say, Yeah, I'm like Mr. Half-hearted. Let's do the half-hearted. If you're wholehearted, you can adjust to criticism of your wholeheartedness as being something really trashy, below average, etc. Arrogant, selfish. But this is all fine to wholehearted. Wholehearted life says, yeah, yeah, come on. I love it. Let me give myself to you for more criticism. Like that bodhisattva in the Lotus Citra, never disparaging. I say, you know, I don't say you're not, you know, I won't disparage you.

[55:04]

I don't say you won't become Buddha. I won't say you're not, you know, an excellent practitioner. I won't say it. I'll never disparage you. And then everybody, like, really gave him a hard time. And he just hung in there with his wholeheartedness, pretending to be wholehearted. He knew he was pretending. That's how he could continue. But sometimes I have doubts, you know, that sort of... You have doubts? What doubt? I would say, like the connection, for example, between putting on the robe, that putting on the robe is saving all beings. You doubt that? Sometimes it's not totally obvious, right, the connection between my robe and all sentient beings. Well, not being obvious doesn't mean it isn't the same as doubt. I mean, I can't really... I don't know if I can perceive it. Doubt is when you don't act wholeheartedly.

[56:09]

That's doubt. But when you act wholeheartedly, things don't suddenly become obvious necessarily. You don't necessarily immediately see the connection between putting the robe on and saving all beings. And you don't really care, because what you really care about is the beings are saved. And that you do understand in wholeheartedness. Wholeheartedness is understanding the saving of beings. ...in addition. And that there's no problem to have doubt about stuff, but if the doubt isn't functioning, it's not a problematic doubt. If I don't give myself 100% to things, Say, well, I doubt 100%-edness. If I'm half-hearted, you can say, well, there's some doubt because I don't give myself completely. When you give yourself completely, doubt doesn't have to be blown out of the water.

[57:14]

It's just not functional anymore. And when it's not functional, it doesn't matter. So just be wholehearted and see if you still have any problems. Come and tell me that you got a problem when you're wholehearted. Or even if you lose it by the time you come and tell me, tell me that when you were wholehearted you had doubt. Show me that that's possible. You might be able to do it. It's possible. You might be able to be wholeheartedly doubtful. That may be good. You may be able to do it that way. This microphone seems to be a battery destroyer.

[58:19]

It goes from green to red very rapidly. Does red mean that the batteries are impermanent? This is a Buddhist indicator. It's saying the red means that the batteries are impermanent. Yeah. So I talked to you in Dokusan a while ago, and you helped me to understand. accepting, you used an analogy of a sick person, and you said, when someone is sick, you want them to get better, but it's important to accept them as they're sick, because then if you don't do that, and they don't like that, and then they also, you know, have to deal with you not accepting them, they don't like that too.

[59:47]

And that made a lot of sense, it really helped. But now, what is happening? Now is a new day. It doesn't make sense anymore. What's happening is that when I sit, I often feel sick. I don't feel very good. And... Stomach stomach like nausea or pain pain Yeah, and I guess it's kind of having an emotional effect on me um yeah So I am to Accept that that sickness, but I also I'm really

[60:50]

I don't understand how to accept something and still want it to heal. I think it can be really powerful. I've had experiences of being really powerful to intend toward healing and intending toward changing. my intention can really help what happens. And so it's really been confusing for me because that's not, there's a deep wanting there, you know? So I don't know how to be... Well, deep wanting is fine. The Buddha, for example, a Buddha, supposedly, or anyway, deeply wants a person who's sick to be at ease. They want the person to be at ease and at peace and happy. That's what they want for the person who's suffering.

[61:55]

But they love the current person the way they are. Pain, they love the person. And they accept that the person's this way. And they also understand, I think, that if this person could love themselves, that they would be happy in their current illness. They would be happy. And they themselves, and both people in this story, still would want this person to be free of this particular illness. Now there's some pains, however, that are very useful, of course, you can clearly see. The pain helps you not move. Because if you try to move, it hurts. But it's not good to move when you have a broken leg, visually. So that pain is a pain we don't want to get rid of. But we would like the person to be at peace with that pain.

[63:03]

Now, would I like that pain to go away? I would like that pain to go away when it would be good for the pain to go away. And so when the bone is set and stable, then I would be happy for that pain to go away, and it often will. Before the pain goes away, before the pain goes away, I would like that person not to wait for the pain to go away, but I'd like them to be happy right now. And the Buddha visiting you, or visiting us when we're in pain, seeing our pain, But the Buddha does not want that pain to go away, because that's the pain of compassion. They do not want to get rid of that pain. That's a good pain. And what they want right away, before the pain they see in you, before that is going to go away, they want you to be happy now.

[64:03]

So they are happy to be with you in with their pain being with you. They're showing that you can be happy with your current pain. Now, if this current pain goes away, then you can be happy with what follows that. We have to learn to love what we've got now. We have to love what we've got now in order to save it. Love doesn't mean like. It means willing to be there wholeheartedly. and the Buddha is willing to be with them wholeheartedly, and they feel pain if the other person is suffering in a way that's not helpful to that person. And they would like the person to become free of any unhelpful pain. But they would like that to happen right now, before the unhelpful pain goes away.

[65:05]

So you plant the seed of compassion in the field of suffering. And this compassion, which is a happiness, can grow in the field of our own and others. And then we can teach those who haven't learned it to plant the seed of compassion in their suffering and others' suffering. I'm not rejecting what you said. That is really helpful. I guess the only thing that's still my resistance to that, I guess, so you're sitting there, you have stomach pain.

[66:09]

You're just going to accept the stomach pain. Yeah. Be happy with the stomach pain. If you're accepted. So there's the practice of patience, which is one way to, one of the virtues which helps us accept pain. So you have a pain, try to be very much in the present of the pain. That's patience. Think about how long it's been going on. You don't have to think about how long it's going to go on when you're practicing patience. Just work with the present pain. That's one way to accept it, called patience. The other way is be gracious. let the pain be pain. Not just like, okay, you can be pain, but as an act of generosity. So the generosity, the graciousness towards the pain and the patience towards the pain, those are compassion towards the pain.

[67:14]

So compassion, if you're that way with your pain, you still have it's changing into other pains. So you've delivered a series of pains. But the practice of patience and giving are growing up in this series of pains. And giving, being generous with our pain becomes a great joy. And in that joy, the fear of pain is burned away. The pain may still be there, But the fear of it is burned away. And the patience helps you find the coolest spot in the pain. You don't have to go in the hottest. The hottest part of the pain comes when you think about how long it's been going on, then it flares up. Or how long it's going to go on, then it flares up. But in the present, there's a cool spot in the middle of the pain. And if you're generous with it, there's a joy in the middle of the pain.

[68:16]

The pain may change into pain, which is very nice. But before it goes, as we say, before the donkey leaves, the horse arrives. You can practice compassion before the pain goes away. And you can become happy before sickness. Kitchen members, is it okay if she asks another question? Yeah, okay. I think it's fine. Have you ever... This summer I was going to a guy who practices Tibetan medicine. He hadn't used the Tibetan... Medicine Buddha, I was supposed to visualize the medicine Buddha on my head. Yeah, and that feels like contradictory to I'm asking this medicine Buddha to change the pain Rather than accept it.

[69:26]

Is it is it contradictory to what you're saying? Well, I Guess I don't know if it's contradictory, but I guess I would be more like I would ask the Tibetan I would ask that the medicine by Sahaja Guru, I would ask that Tathagata to help me accept the pain, to help me find a quiet place in the pain, to help me be gracious with the pain. Because I don't think it's contradictory. I need help to practice compassion. So, if I go to visit somebody who's sick, and I'm able to appreciate them the way they are, I feel that's really nice because then maybe they could pick up from me to appreciate the way they are. And then we could have some appreciation in the middle of this illness. But I don't think, I don't want to think that it was me who went in there by my own power and was able to do this practice.

[70:32]

It's only because of ancestors and present compassionate beings supporting me and helping me and feeding me and, you know, sometimes even carrying me into the room eventually, that I could perform this service. So I ask all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas to help me get over any resistance I have to being of that kind of service. I don't ask them to do my work for me. I don't ask them to take away my pain. I ask them to Help me become free of any resistance to being with what's happening. That helps a lot. I see it as recognizing, I need help. This is a really hard thing to do. I don't think I should be able to do it by myself. Matter of fact, I can't even do easy things by myself.

[71:33]

So always thinking of asking the Buddhist to help, invoking their presence, please help me be wholehearted. One story I have about myself is that I'm a slow learner. And so what I'm about to talk about may already be evident to .

[72:39]

But it seems like a revelation for me. We talk a lot about things that are connected, like cause and effect. things that come in pairs. It was just there, but it's gone. But it seems like there are many examples that I could bring up, if I could think of them, that things were paired or so forth. And this morning in Zazen, I don't know, doing some non-thinking. And it occurred to me that none of these things actually exist by themselves, parent, but actually it's just all Dharma.

[73:44]

And I wonder if this is an accurate understanding. Does this understanding help, does this understanding promote and support wholeheartedness? Absolutely. I mean, at the time this occurred to me, the immediate result was joy. And I don't understand how you can have joy without wholeheartedness. Then it seems to be a correct understanding. Now give it away. Yeah, another thing that occurred to me just in this meeting is that it's probably impossible to give it away because it's already gone, moment after moment.

[74:54]

It's not impossible to give away what's gone. No? No. You can give away your entire past. But it's gone. I know. And actually, I'm giving your past away. Thank you. And I'm going to give your past to Emma. Oh, Emma. You don't know what you've got in store for me. And I'm going to give your whole past to Kyunghee. And you can join me. Or you could say it's impossible to give and see how that feels. I don't want to say that. No, you don't want to say that, do you? No. It gives it all away. You can take it back. I won't. Hand it over. You don't have something to give it away.

[76:02]

So I wanted to ask you this before. I'll hold it for you. So it seems to me that, well, I'm sort of afraid it seems to carry a lot of danger. It seems to me that... It carries a lot of danger? Yeah. I wanted to ask you about the connection between half-heartedness, violence, and when... It seems to me that wholehearted figures in history have often been Killed. Wholehearted figures of also been killed. It's true. Half-hearted figures have also been killed. Yes. So being wholehearted does not prevent you being killed. But it does realize not killing. When you're wholehearted, you realize the practice of not killing. You realize the Bodhisattva way when you're wholehearted. May I kill you? People tried to kill Shakyamuni Buddha. Here he was demonstrating not killing, encouraging not killing, and people tried to kill him.

[77:33]

So if you practice wholeheartedness, you will no longer be afraid of being killed. You won't be killed. In other words, the delusion of killing you could still occur to some people. You know, and history could record that some people, a lot of people thought you were killed rather than just died. In yourself, however, being wholehearted, you're not afraid of being killed. When you're wholehearted, you will know, finally, that you will not kill and that no one can make you kill in your wholeheartedness. And when you know that you will not kill, you're not afraid of being killed. That doesn't mean you won't be killed. that, you know, apparent reality could still manifest. And if you're not afraid, if you're wholehearted, you won't be afraid of death either in the wholeheartedness. Okay, so until that point... Until that point, yes.

[78:37]

So I'm interested in the wholeheartedness and violence. Yeah, so when you're half-hearted, you're afraid. More or less. I would say extreme half-heartedness or extreme unwholeheartedness, extreme constriction goes with severe fear. And when you're severely frightened, you're at risk of being violent. When you're really afraid, the temptation to be violent gets higher. When you're a little bit afraid, you say, well, I'm not going to be violent. I'm just a little bit afraid I'm not going to be violent. But if I get scared enough, I say, okay, now I have to be violent. Now it'll be good to be violent. Now I'd like to protect myself because I'm so frightened. So I'm proposing that when you're wholehearted, you're not afraid. And when you're not afraid because of wholeheartedness, not because of drugging yourself so you can't feel anything, but you're actually really wholehearted, calmly, attentively, relaxed, wholehearted.

[79:49]

And wholehearted includes that you know everybody's helping you be wholehearted. All this is understood in realizing wholeheartedness. You will not be afraid and you will not be violent. You will not want to hurt anybody. That's my proposal to you. I feel like I'm caught in a circle because I'm half-hearted because I'm afraid to be wholehearted, or I don't know how to get there, and I sort of don't trust interactions from my own half-heartedness with other people's half-heartedness, so that I become sort of more and more afraid, and then... Yeah, that's great. When you feel half-hearted and you feel afraid, in general, but specifically if you feel afraid of becoming... opening up a little bit more and being more wholehearted.

[80:51]

When you're half-hearted, you're afraid that wholeheartedness will be more dangerous than half-heartedness. So it is hard. I guess I don't understand your recommendation for playing with other half-hearted beings or playing with our own half-heartedness, because that just sounds too dangerous to me. But, you mean it sounds too dangerous to play? You do live with half-hearted people, right? Well, I don't know. I'm afraid, but yes. It seems like some people will come and tell you that they're half-hearted and afraid. There are people like that who will admit, I feel half-hearted, I feel like I'm holding back, I feel like I'm constricted, I feel like I'm tense, and I feel afraid. People will say that. So if we play with them, I mean, it's like, you know, you mentioned Rozzy as an example. She's kind of a non-threatening example because she's not human. So if you try to play with Rozzy, you know, she might bite.

[81:54]

She might bite, right? It's true. When you're playful, you don't... When you're playful, you don't get into playfulness. You're not expecting that people won't bite you. If you're expecting that people won't bite you, I'll let you know. That's really not... That's not the playfulness. That's just an expectation. Playfulness is like letting go of expectation and just seeing what happens. So if you get bitten, then what? Well, then you play with that. You play with getting bitten. When you're bitten, you play with... Well, first of all, you relax with getting bitten. First you relax, then you play with getting bitten. That's what I'm recommending. I've seen people get tense up and aren't playful. I've seen that. I've seen how that works. It doesn't attract me. Say I'm trying to play with Rozzy, right, and she bites me, then... Hasn't that also caused her pain?

[82:54]

So is there something about the playing that can be unskillful or violent? I'm afraid to even attempt it a lot of the time because I'm afraid of creating more fear in myself or in the other half-hearted being. Well, I don't want to create more fear, basically. That's not my intention, to create more fear. ...interact with somebody and they become afraid, and if they become afraid they might become violent towards me, I would understand maybe from that, I would try to find, you know, I might be interested to try to find out, is there some way I could interact with you that would be less frightening to you? And now I notice that you are afraid of me and you're afraid of being violent with me, so is there some way that would be less frightening for you? And I might say, yeah, stop talking, or whatever, you know. But in that story I just told, I was kind of relaxed with them being afraid of me, and I kind of was somewhat playful with them.

[83:58]

And asking that playfulness, I start interacting and asking, is there some way I could be less frightening to you? And they might tell me. And then I say, how's that? And they say, I feel less afraid. And then we say, well, can you relax now with me? And they say, yeah. Can we play with now? And they say, yeah. Or if they don't say it, actually, I see them relax, and I see them starting to become But this situation is impermanent like all situations, and we can lose the sense of relaxation, and we can lose the playfulness. It's precarious, it's fragile. That's normal. But then if we lose it, then can we relax that we lost it? Yes, we can sometimes. Can we start playing again? Yes. So if you don't know how to play, then you can't really teach others how to play. So if you don't know how to play, then it would be good to try who can teach you how to play before you start teaching others how to play.

[85:05]

I don't want to teach others how to play. But when you learn how to play, I think you will like to teach others how to play. Because some, anyways, people who don't know how to play need to know how to play. And so there's a way to play with Rasi, you know, that she won't bite you. So if you, you know, there's a certain way of approaching her that you can learn when she's not afraid. She gives certain signals, and I can see it. She's about... in such a way she's getting upset she's pretty soon she's going to get ready to bite them and there she goes so she's biting so I've seen how that is I see her other ways people come up to her and I can see she's immediately like this is the way to relate to me doing it right and she gives them feedback that they're doing right, they may not notice it. In fact, I can see her saying, this is the way I like to be related to.

[86:08]

Basically, the way she likes to be related to is for her to be in charge. So she comes up to you and sits down and makes herself available, the way she likes to do it. And then you avail yourself of her availability in the way she wants you to do it. And if you don't do it that way, then she starts getting ready to bite you. So you learn that if you're relaxed. And if you learn that, you can learn how to play with her. Do you believe that all beings want to learn how to play? Do I believe that all beings want to learn how to play? I do believe that, and I act upon that. And I believe that in order to play, we need to be relaxed. So I act upon that too, of encouraging myself and others to relax, of being mindful of being relaxed.

[87:14]

And I encourage others to tell me if they think I'm not relaxed, to help to check to see if I'm paying attention to that. But I don't tell other people that they're not relaxed if I see them and they look not relaxed unless they ask me to tell them. But some people have asked me, so I say, when I see them not being relaxed, I sometimes say, Are you feeling relaxed? And they say, No, thanks. Can I ask one more question? Yes, you may. So is it appropriate to, again, just to ignore Rasi? Is it appropriate to what? To just not interact? Appropriate to what? In general. Is it appropriate to in general? I don't know what you mean by in general. Okay, I understand what you're saying. If you're saying appropriate to being kind to Rosy and have a good relationship, then ignoring Rosy is not appropriate.

[88:17]

Because if you ignore Rosy, you step too close to her. And she does, she gets underfoot. She often gets under Risa's feet. So if you don't pay attention to her and you step on her, they might have a problem. So it's not good to ignore anything if you want to have a harmonious relationship with anything. So I think it's good to pay attention to Rosy, to be mindful of Rosy, and to be relaxed with Rosy. That's appropriate to having a good relationship. If you're relaxed with her, you still might make mistakes and get bit. Ten. But you'll learn. In that playfulness, you will learn the way that she wants to do it. Thank you. You're welcome. I wasn't really talking about Rosie, you know that, right?

[89:21]

I really love Rosie, so I'm not afraid of her. Thank you for clarifying that. I've got a question about sitting wholeheartedly. This morning I came into the Zen room quite early, so I came quite early. I was practicing, sitting upright, being aware, being relaxed, and then suddenly I hear this voice saying, and it was you. I was walking past, and even though I sat with open eyes, I hadn't seen you. And I think in hindsight, I heard,

[90:23]

But in whatever state I was in, it didn't register as something to inquire about more deeply, or I didn't react in a way that I felt that I was meant. So I suspect meditation, I... kind of shut down and feel that's wholehearted. Because I'm still aware, I still feel things changing quite rapidly. And I feel quite equanimous. And yet, if I don't respond appropriately, the appropriate response would have been to be engashered. Yes, I agree with your analysis of your state. So I would like you to be calm and still be able to respond to beings. And if it's in a ceremonial situation, to understand the ceremony, which you do.

[91:30]

And then if you don't want to gassho, Fine, but have it be like that's your intention. You can see to do that rather than be out of touch with your intention. And it's possible to get overly collected and not be aware of the actual intention that's going on. So how do I avoid being overly collected? It's come up before in England. Avoid it. I don't know about avoiding it. I think just in this situation here, practicing in this kind of environment, you will get feedback which will help you. It isn't that you will be able to avoid it by yourself. You will get feedback. And then when you get it and you notice that somebody is saying something to you like, I would like you to do something, and you're not able to understand that for a while or whatever,

[92:32]

That'll be an example of you to learn about this. And there'll be more responsiveness in your sitting. It'll be less about you by yourself and your own state of mind. So if you were practicing this way, in some situations, you probably wouldn't get much feedback about this, and I would think that would not be conducive to wholeheartedness, to awakening to practice these things. So that's why some yogis who are quite developed, they're not necessarily open to the Buddha's teaching. But others who are quite developed are open to it, and that's... This particular tradition is like a tradition where you combine calm with receiving teachings upon them to enact them in the world in more ways than just sitting quietly. But sitting quietly is one of the ways to enact them. But it's not that you're sitting quietly. You're demonstrating selflessness.

[93:34]

And because you're selfless, if people need you To that, you're available. If it's, you know, to whatever is appropriate. So the Buddha was a great meditator. But when people asked for Dharma, he could give it. Because he wasn't, you know, he was, he understood the relationship of selflessness that caused the situation. So here you did that, and you got feedback. And you responded, and now you're talking to me. But if you were sitting someplace where somebody doesn't walk by and have a form, then you might have missed this opportunity. So that's why maybe this kind of practice. Context in which you practice concentration. Make sure your concentration doesn't become overly inward. My sense was when you talked about being wholehearted in your sitting and then giving it away, that I'm not giving it away.

[94:39]

Yeah. Exactly. I've told this story too many times. Somebody asked one of our priests, who also teaches in another tradition, and the other people in the other tradition asked him, in Zen do they practice concentration? Did they attain states of concentration? And he says, yeah, but you can't have them. I feel like I already have a dollar, and I'd actually like your help to see that perhaps I don't. Or let me just say that this dollar feels like a burden. Would you like to give it away?

[95:42]

I would. Okay. Are you going to give it now? We'll see what happens. I'm open to many possibilities. Okay. Another thing that comes to mind is I feel like maybe I could represent anybody who has been violent and hasn't wanted to be when I ask this. I feel like I have a story of an incident where I was wholehearted and caused harm and some regret. And I... I wonder, you know, kind of on behalf of other people who have engaged in violence, if they might also feel like they were moment of taking an action that had a negative result.

[96:45]

So I'm not sure if you're asking me anything. I understand what you said, I think. Did you want me to comment on that? I guess I'm not looking for another dollar, but I feel like I have an example of a time that I've been wholehearted and actually regret it. Yeah, so I would say you feel like it was wholehearted. In order to get the dollar from me, you have to tell me about how you are wholehearted and see if I think it's wholehearted. Because I'm not going to give you a dollar until you prove the wholeheartedness. Tell me the wholeheartedness you're referring to. Well, in my particular state, let's say, in an environment that's chaotic, let's say my intention is

[97:47]

I'm not really telling you exactly what happened. I'm telling you a real simplified version. Is that okay? I could try, but then go ahead. So let's say my intention was to say stop, to be in the midst of a chaotic environment, and my intention was to say stop, but my action was actually breaking something and inadvertently hurting myself. But I don't understand what was wholehearted about that so far. I don't get how it was wholehearted. The action that occurred as a way to try to say stop was felt to me wholehearted. That's what I'd be willing to, you know, that's what I feel like I have a dollar about, right? Like I'm willing to defend that that was a wholehearted moment. So when you said it was wholehearted, is that what you're saying? When you said stop and that was wholehearted? Right, the expression that was wishing... Oh, you didn't just say stop.

[98:53]

I didn't just say stop. You broke something. What did you break? A window. I wish I might have just said stop. So I remember when I was a little boy, I came home from school one day, and the door to my house was locked. I was about eight. The door to the house was locked, and I don't know, I just somehow didn't... feel like being in the house, partly. But I also actually wanted to break the window. So I put my hand through the window and reached through and unlocked the door. So in a sense, it was kind of wholehearted, and I actually did really enjoy it. I always wanted to break my hand through a window. I always wanted to, and now I got to do it. Sort of, this is an opportunity because the house was locked. Okay? But I think that wholeheartedness includes being aware of all that's going on with me.

[99:59]

And I, looking back now, I think I wasn't really fully aware of everything that's going on with me, although I felt great release there. I don't think I was really aware of, you know, some other things that were going on with me. So I wouldn't give myself the dollar for that thing, but I felt pretty good about that. I don't think I was really including all that's needed to be included in wholeheartedly putting my hand through the thing. Are you saying that looking back, you don't feel that at that time you were wholehearted? Or is wholeheartedness growing now, looking back and learning more? I'm looking at that occasion of where I broke something, a window, like you. And I remember it was an important event for me and I really enjoyed it. But I don't think I was really wholehearted. I knew and experienced wholeheartedness at that moment.

[101:03]

Not quite. It's pretty good, but not quite. And so I don't yet know that what you did there was wholehearted. I hear you kind of think it was, but I'm not really convinced. Can you say what, for you, the left-out element was in your feeling like you were not, like your example is not wholeheartedness? I didn't feel relaxed and playful. Yeah, me neither. You know, I didn't have that... I didn't have a full appreciation of the creativity involved and the mutuality of the event. I didn't feel... I felt kind of selfish. And like I was getting this... I was getting this treat, which I always wanted, called breaking a window with my hand. For my eight years of life. Is it possible to give a gift without being playful?

[102:08]

Because I would say, considering my situation, I felt like I was getting a gift, but I did not feel playful. Well, I think you can literally give a gift, like give it to somebody. Like my grandson. He gave $5 for my hat, but he was trying to get something while I did it. So I would say the kind of giving that I'm talking about, which is wholehearted, you're definitely not trying to get anything. Definitely was trying to get something. Okay, so then I would say, you don't get the dollar now that we look at it. But it's through this kind of study that we find, actually, those wonderful moments of wholehearted giving. And it could be putting your hand through a window. It could be. But then everybody's going like, yay! That's beautiful, Def. We support you. That's really encouraging. Nobody would be upset, but... I think we'd like everybody to be encouraged. That's what the whole hardness is about. Wow, what a relief.

[103:13]

Good. Something happened at a work meeting last week, and I didn't take care of it at the time.

[104:15]

And then I forgot about it at the next work meeting, and I'm coming up, so I'm taking the opportunity, kind of a confession. When you say you didn't take care of it, you mean you weren't wholehearted? I guess I wasn't wholehearted. It occurred to me, and in the surrounding area was, you know, don't bring that up. Everybody needs to go to work. Don't take other people's time, something like that. So now I'm taking the time. I'm not taking the time. You're receiving the time. It's being given to you. Thank you. The Eno made an announcement about cloth being available for wiping cloths, Japanese cloths. And she said it was donated by Linda Ruth, this cloth. And I mentioned something, how wonderful the cloth is, and so forth.

[105:22]

But it wasn't a donation. I got reimbursed for it. It was supplies. I got reimbursed for supplies. I did shop for it and bring it, but it wasn't a donation. Get the record straight. Yeah. Wow. So at that moment you felt like you kind of, what do you call it, sort of praised yourself at the expense of others. You let that happen. I did, I did. Yeah, a little bit. And I kind of felt it, and I thought, no, no. And I thought, that's too much, just... Let alone they're busy doing other things now. But it continued to... I think that would have been fine. No, no. I just want to say that I was supported by Zen Center to make this offering. And I was supporting all of you to go shopping for it. So actually, we did it together.

[106:25]

It was, you know, I think that would have been okay. And some people would say, oh, man, it's getting so long. And then somebody else probably would have, you know, gone on forever. Thank you. You're welcome. And there was one other thing, which is, Suzuki Roshi, I think he says, I don't believe in anything except everything is a momentary form and color, something like that, about I don't believe in anything. And the other day you mentioned about beliefs, and you've been using the word belief, and I realized I thought belief was a no-no. You know, we don't say belief. It's like, you know, Buddhism without beliefs is that book. Yeah, Buddhism without beliefs, right. So... You've been using belief and I wanted to understand more what it's not a substantial belief that the actions are based on.

[107:34]

Well, the teaching is that phenomena are ultimately insubstantial. And the teaching is that peace is actually non-apprehending things. And if you apprehend things, you're going against their nature. I mean, not their nature, but the way they actually are. It makes them ungraspable. So that's a teaching. And to believe that teaching would mean you would act upon that. You would live according to that teaching. You would act from there. Which it would include that when you would be aware, I'm not acting from that teaching now. I'm inattentive to the Dharma at this moment. I'm not being mindful of the teaching, the way I'm acting right now. I'm acting like this is substantial. And it's creating... And I regret it.

[108:40]

I regret. So Suzuki Roshi is saying, I don't believe. It's sort of, he's using that word, believe, in the exact same way, maybe. Yeah. In other words, he's acting upon the teaching that things are insubstantial, ungraspable, constantly changing, and interdependent. I don't believe in anything. I don't believe in anything out there separate from me, for example. And he also sometimes said, I don't trust people. But what he means is, I don't trust the projections that are usually called people. I don't trust that stuff. That stuff is subject to change, not worthy of confidence. But he's devoted to all his students that he doesn't trust. He's devoted to unstable, unworthy of confidence students. He's totally devoted to them to practice zazen with them. These appearances of substantial people separate from each other.

[109:45]

He doesn't trust that world. He trusts the teaching that there's no such, really, that world's an illusion. He trusts that teaching. But he doesn't make that teaching into a substantial thing either. He just uses it as the basis to go to... Thank you very much. You're welcome. And also he enjoyed surprising Americans and students with comments like that. Which we heard and we thought, wow, that's interesting. Like he surprised me also by saying, which I told you many times, and which I saw him do, he said, when you're with acquaintances, you can be informal. But with those you're intimate with, you need formality. That's the opposite of what I thought. And I heard him say that shortly after I met him, and I thought, hmm.

[110:47]

And I just found that such a helpful teaching. And I watched him be quite informal with people who he wasn't intimate with. And when I first saw that, I thought, geez, he's so informal and friendly with those people. But he was formal with, I think, some of his students that he was closest to. Like he was quite formal with his son and his wife. But he was very intimate with them, too. And With some of his students, I think he was more formal, but those were the people he wasn't so close to. I would say he loved them, and I watched him love them, but he wasn't formal with them, and he wasn't close to them. But as we got closer, he got more formal. And that's, again, surprised. Now I see that... Like this morning my wife left and she said, wish me good luck.

[111:51]

And I said, good luck. She formally told me what I should do. And I heard it and I performed it. And that's our intimacy and me assisting her to go off on her difficult day. to have all the people she has to meet and work with intimately. So I wish her luck. Thank you very much.

[112:27]

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