Do some people, have some people not yet received this list of the 16 Bodhisattva precepts? Have you got one, Chuck? And Bo? And Sarah Jean? One for the man behind you? Can I have one more? Can you have one more? You have one at home? We'll give it back when you're done. Okay? I... I wanted to say something about this word, real.

[01:05]

I remember when I first started practicing sitting, before I came to San Francisco Zen Center, I was practicing sitting in Minneapolis, Minnesota. The reason why I was practicing it was because I heard that this was a training that most of these people practiced. And I read these stories about these people and in these stories I felt these people were really like, I didn't use the word compassionate, now I would, but I just thought that they had sort of a marvelous response to various situations, which was characterized by non-attachment, fearlessness, ease, and kind of like liberation.

[02:09]

And when I saw that example, I thought, I'd like to learn how to be like that. But, you know, how you would be able to act like that Like when someone is robbing you, how you'd be able to, like... When someone was about to rob you, how you could take away the robbery by making it a gift-giving event so that the robbery was, you know, not... And where someone was praising or blaming you, but your response to it, like... transformed the praising and blaming situation into one of being of service to beings. And then I got somehow the information that these people trained for a long time, most of these people, and they had pretty much the same training, and the training was a sitting practice, sitting still and quiet.

[03:17]

And then people asked me, you know, they found out I was doing this, and they were interested, and even they found out that I was considering leaving Minnesota to come to get some help in the practice, because nobody in Minneapolis would do it with me, and I was having trouble being consistent, practicing just by my own kind of like, my own enthusiasm was sometimes not alive. But anyway, they asked me, when you do sit, what's good about it, or what's the reason for it? And I didn't feel good, exactly. And I didn't feel it was bad. So what I told them was, I feel like it's real. And the criterion that I used for why how it was real, I really can't define.

[04:25]

I mean, I can't. Not really. And yet I had a consistent feeling when practicing it, like this is the most real thing I've ever done in my life. I wasn't yet able to act this compassion, which I was originally inspired by and attracted to this practice. But once I got into the practice, I felt like, although I'm not yet like these people in the stories, I am, I think, doing the practice, the form of the practice that they did. And when I do the form, I just do the real thing I had known, or equally real to anything I had experienced. And I couldn't explain why, really. And I still can't. I mean, I can explain, but whatever my explanation is, as I've been saying to you, it... the function of mind that we really know reality. It's not by something out there that we can get a hold of to prove it.

[05:28]

And yet we can prove it. And we prove it by doing the thing, this reality. Could you take this down, please? So practicing koans is a further, not necessarily further, but a parallel or a complementary practice to go with the sitting to verify reality, to touch reality, to enact reality, to do an action which seems real. And then, does this reality assist practicing compassion?

[06:32]

That's another question to study. So there's two things I was going to bring up tonight. One was I was going to actually look at some stories, which are... what he called, two number one stories and two major collections of stories. Number one of the Blue Cliff Record, and number one of the Book of Serenity. I was going to look at those stories, but something else came up, and someone told me that they were reading one of the fascicles of the Shobo Genso, which is called Buso, Buddha Ancestors. The fascicle has one paragraph, and then it has the names of the Buddha ancestors in the lineage leading up to the author of the text, namely Ehe Dogen.

[07:35]

It was his lineage that's in the text. Basically, just one paragraph leading up to this list of Buddha ancestors. And the person who brought this up to me brought it up in relationship to the last sentence of the paragraph. And I'll just briefly mention the last sentence and come back to it she actually looked at one translation and then she looked at another one. And in one translation it said, they. And in the other translation it said, we. And I guess she was feeling like, she felt kind of uncomfortable about they. They, you know, they, you know, them, the Buddha ancestors, the great beings, they.

[08:39]

She liked we better. She didn't like having a they out there. She liked the we. Not that we're Buddha ancestors, but that we do something in relationship to them. It's not like they are doing it all. They are they and we are we, but we can do something so that they are real. And I said, well, I feel like it's both. I think it's nice to have two translations, one's they and one's we, because it's actually, it is they and we. There's not just we or me. There's also... It's not just us sentient beings. It's also the Buddhas. But the Buddhas need us just like we need them. So I think it's nice that the two translations took the two sides of the duality out of the other so we can have both now.

[09:42]

Now I'd like to start at the beginning and read both translations. The realization of Buddha ancestors, our taking up Buddha ancestors and paying homage to them. So this fascicle is reading that sentence and a few more, and then it's reciting the names of the Buddha ancestors. And then with each name, or it could be with certain ceremonies, you say one name and do one bow, say another name and do another bow. But during ordinary services, We did the whole list and we do basically nine bows while doing the chant. In Suzuki Roshi, he trained a couple of us to do morning service and he changed it to... He changed it to... He changed it to... eight bows.

[10:59]

from nine. The reason he did that was because he felt like our bodies were a little bit big to be doing nine bows during the chants. There's too much large bodies going up and down. So usually the way you do leading morning service is you bow at certain places, and one of the places you bow is at Bodhidharma, And another place you bow is at the sixth ancestor. So you bow at the first and the sixth ancestor of the Chinese ancestors. Is that clear? And Suzuke Roshi, all for Bodhidharma is stay down until the sixth ancestor. So that takes away one and goes from nine down to eight. But anyway, usually we do nine, but sometimes we do fifty, ninety-one, ninety-two, depends on the number.

[12:03]

Sometimes we do one for each one. In this text it didn't say how many bowels to do. But the point is you're reading this, you could be reading this paragraph which I'm going to discuss with you and then you say the name, you bring forth the name, you say the name and bring forth the Buddha ancestor and bow. And by saying the name, you bring forth the Buddha ancestor. And by bowing, you bring forth the Buddha ancestor. And by saying the name, you bring forth and manifest the Buddha ancestor. And then you can check to see while you're bowing if you feel that what you're doing is real. It doesn't have to be more real than having breakfast. After that, you can go have breakfast and see, is having breakfast real? Is this real? And what's the criterion by which it would be reality?

[13:04]

Well, we can discuss that, but I proposed to you before that there's no fixed deterministic criteria or, yeah, there's a non-strict criteria. You do have some criteria. You feel like this is real, but it's not strict. You know that reason. But first translation is the realization of the Buddha ancestors. Now again, two realizations. One is their realization, the realization of the ancestors of the Buddhas, the realization of the great Indian and Chinese and Japanese master. Their realization is taking up the Buddha ancestors and paying homage to them. That's their realization. Their realization is taking their ancestors and paying homage to their ancestors.

[14:06]

That's their realization. But also, it doesn't say their or our. Actually, this first translation has in parentheses ours. I would put parentheses their and ours. The realization of the Buddha ancestors is taking up the Buddha ancestors and paying homage to them. That is the realization of them. That is their realization. That is our realization. That is the realization. The realization is this. Their translation is, now actualizing Buddha ancestors means bringing them forth and looking at them. And that one's putting more emphasis on their actualization or our actualization. It just says actualizing them is bringing them forth. Is there some other way to actualize them?

[15:09]

Maybe. Maybe. But anyway, this is the actualization of them, is to bring them forward and look at them. And they and we, their realization and the realization and our realization is doing that. The next sentence, two translations, It is not just limited to the Buddhas of past, present, and future. No, excuse me, first translation. It's not only past, present, and future. It may be ascendant even to... And the other translation, I think, is a little clearer. It's not just limited to Buddha of past, present, and future. It doesn't say Buddha in the original.

[16:10]

but it is going beyond Buddhas who are going beyond Buddhas themselves. What is it that's going beyond Buddhas that are going beyond themselves? What is it? Realization. It's realization, but what is the realization in this situation? and paying homage to the Buddha. Yeah. And how do you bring it forth? Well, one way to bring it forth is to say, Bibashibutsu Dayojo, Great Master Bibashibutsu, Bibashibuddha. Saying that name and bringing that forth, invoking that Buddha and putting the body into the bow. I sing it according to this statement here. It is, what is?

[17:15]

Realization is just to enumerate the maintained and relied upon the real face and eyes of Buddha ancestors. To do prostrations to them and to meet them. In the days when there was a historical Buddha, people used to do prostrations to the Buddha. That's the way they met the Buddha. Now we don't have a historical Buddha who we can see, so now we do prostrations to meet the Buddhas. We do prostrations to the Buddhas. And the Buddhas are those who have maintained the eyes and face of... The Buddha ancestors are those who have maintained the eyes and face of Buddha ancestors. It is taking up those who have maintained the face and eyes of Buddha ancestors, formally bowing.

[18:20]

And then here's the last sentence, which is different, quite different. The first one is, making the virtue of Buddhas and ancestors manifest and uphold itself, we have dwelt in maintaining it. ...dwelt and maintained the virtue of the Buddha ancestors and have bowed to the virtue of the Buddha's ancestors and experienced it. How do you experience the virtue of the Buddha's ancestors? Bowing. How did they experience the virtues of the Buddha's ancestors? They bowed to Buddha ancestors. Another translation is, they have manifested the virtue of Buddha ancestors, dwelled in it, and actualized it. Bowing, verification.

[19:24]

There's a character for bowing, formal bowing, and the next character is verification. They do bowing verification. How do you prove and manifest and prove the Buddha ancestors? By bowing to them and meeting them. You say, well, I can bow to them, but I have trouble understanding about meeting is bowing to them. And there's not another kind of meeting in addition to bowing to them. If you're walking down the street and you see a Buddha and you say, hi, You can say hi, it's okay. But actually, hi should be in the form of a prostration. And our examples are where people who were looking for the Buddha, who are going to meet the Buddha, I mean, people who are a person or people who are in some ways considerably more developed than some of us, many of us who are going to meet Shakyamuni Buddha and meet him but don't know it's him and say hi.

[20:46]

And then they find out who they met, and then they say, I'm sorry, I just said hi. I really should have prostrated myself. And the Buddha says, yes, but now you understand, and you're confessing and repenting, and that's fine. This is related to the Bodhisattva precepts, the first one being going for refuge in Buddha, and the usual way of going for refuge in Buddha is to, again, say Buddha. Go for refuge in Buddha, and then the usual way of doing with your body, besides the vocalization, is to prostrate. When people wanted to go for refuge in Buddha, when there was a historical Buddha, They went to the Buddha, and when they saw the Buddha, they prostrated and even said Buddha. And this text is saying going for refuge in Buddha is realization.

[21:54]

Going for refuge in Buddha manifests the And in a sense, there are Buddha ancestors whether we bow or not, but the Buddha way doesn't exist if we don't bow. There are Buddha ancestors whether we go for refuge in them or not. If we go for refuge in them, there's no Buddha way. There are just Buddha ancestors and sentient beings, but there's no way that they're practicing together. The Buddhas are just patiently waiting for somebody to invite them and meet them in the way that verifies it. So it's interesting. The translation says, They have manifested the virtue of the Buddha ancestors, dwelled in the virtue of ancestors, and actualized the virtue of Buddha ancestors in the body. But I looked up the characters and it doesn't say body. It says bowing verification or bowing.

[23:00]

The Buddha ancestors did bowing proof when they met the Buddha. They met the Buddha. They... Yeah, they manifested the virtue of the Buddhas and dwelled in it and actualized it by bowing to prove it. You could also put we in there, that we can prove it. We prove it by bowing. Now, you may feel I bowed, but I didn't really feel like I proved it. Well, guess what to do with that? Yeah, keep bowing. If you keep bowing, you will eventually understand that all along, when you were bowing, you were dwelling in, manifesting, and actualizing the virtue of the Buddhas, all of whom did this. You're doing the practice they did, and sometimes you say, okay, I'm doing the practice they did, but I don't really feel like I'm manifesting them yet.

[24:09]

Well, It's understandable. They may have felt that way, too, for a while, before they were aware that they all along existed, too. Matt? I don't know most of the Buddha ancestors. I can repeat their names, but I have no idea who they are or if they actually existed historically or not. So how can I meet them, even if I don't know if they exist? How can you meet them if you don't know they exist, do you say? Yeah. By saying, pardon? Or if I don't know anything about them. You mean, you don't even know their name? Um, yeah, even if I don't know their name, just have them, you know, just say, don't know your name and bow to it. Don't know your name, Buddha, but since you're a Buddha, I bow to you.

[25:10]

Full bow. And this bow proves, not that I know you, it just, it is the proof of my knowing of you. The proof I've got that I know you is that I'm bowing to you, just like if I met a Buddha who I knew was a Buddha, I would do the same thing. Now, if I know, if I've been doing some research and I know some stories about some of these Buddhist ancestors, do I know them better than you? I know them differently. But if you bow to them, you realize them, you prove them by your bow, and if I don't bow, I'm just sitting there with some story about them and missing out on what you're doing and what you're doing. There's no question, as far as I know, that they all did that. And also, these are people who did it and they maintained the virtue of the Buddha ancestors. And part of the virtue of the Buddha ancestors is to go beyond Buddha's ancestors and not be attached to them.

[26:19]

So this bowing is a way, actually, to manifest them and not attach to them. The manifestation of them is not something out there or in here. It's the practice. It's the bowing. That's the manifestation. It doesn't belong to them or to us. Just like our bowing doesn't belong to us or them. Chris? Do you think it's something about bowing specifically? Or what if they said, like, roll over? Yeah, that would be fine. That would be fine. Or somersault. And in fact, when I sat, I had a sense, I didn't think, well, I'm manifesting the Buddha ancestors. I just thought, this is very real. Now later I find out... So real is because I was doing what they, I was actually without knowing it, paying homage to them by doing the posture which they did.

[27:29]

Now if I go sit in the Zendo and I sit like they did for the welfare of all beings, and if I sit like they did, they did as an act of homage to them. they also sat, like their ancestors, as an act of homage to their ancestors. So when you sit in the zendo, that's another way, another form you can use, which they used to express their devotion to all beings, so to express their homage to their ancestors, because they're doing the same thing they understand their ancestors did. But if we somehow got word that there's Buddhas who... who met their teachers by going and rolling over, then we'd go roll over with the Buddhas. That would be part of us manifesting the way they manifested.

[28:31]

their relationship with their ancestors. But the bowing is... It seems like that's what the historical Buddha told us he did with his ancestors and his ancestors did with his ancestors. That's what he said. He didn't say, I rolled over. But there's lots of flexibility and you can extend the bowing to other forms, you know. There's other ways to pay homage, but that one's the basic one, that's all. And sitting is another way to pay homage. Yes? This is sort of maybe another way of asking Matt's question, but I sort of feel like I'm just opening up the yellow pages. I should say, random in reading names that don't mean anything to me when I read the ancestors or reading the side of a cereal box or something. You know, like it doesn't feel... I don't feel connected to those names at all.

[29:36]

Yeah. Yeah. So, you're kindly offering that you feel like Matt was wondering about What if I said these names and it didn't mean anything to me? Some time ago, like around 1968, I heard the Abhidharma. texts, the higher teaching texts, were very important in the Buddhist tradition. So I thought, well, I'll check them out. Actually, there was a temple in Sri Lanka, a large temple complex, in which housed the Abhidharma, which was written out on gold tablets, and housed in this monastery. I thought, these people find this scholastic teaching really important.

[30:40]

So I started reading it, and my first impression was it was like not reading the Yellow Pages, which I used to read when I was a little kid. They had these really nice pictures, like the moving companies had these really nice pictures of trucks, moving trucks. I used to enjoy looking at those pictures. But reading Abhidharma was like reading And not in the white pages, but the white pages in Minnesota in the Scandinavian names. Where they know Anderson, [...] Johnson, Johnson, Johnson. It's like reading that. It's like... What did you say about that? It means nothing? Yeah, it means nothing. I thought, too bad we're not quite ready at Zen Center for not only for... to read the names and have them mean nothing, but to prostrate when she reads the names and have it mean nothing. But we're not quite ready for that. You haven't been prostrating with the names, right?

[31:44]

I have been prostrating. You have? How do you do it? You say bibashi butsu? No, no, no, I'm sorry. I don't prostrate while I'm saying them. Yeah, right. But this text is a... The sort of hardcore practice that this text is talking about is where you're bowing while you're saying the names. It isn't just that you bring them forth by saying their names. You invoke them by saying their names. You call them into the room by saying their names. And then your body... And when you bow, you experience them. You experience their realization. But you and most of the other people are not doing that. And if you did it, you would go from the way you are now to the state of realization. What you now think is meaning something to you about who they are, that might not

[32:47]

happen. But this new thing would happen, which is the actual realization. You would have the same realization that they had. And the more you bow, the more you give up your idea of what you think would be the criteria that you would use to prove that you had realization. So, in some ways, if you do not understand who these people are or what the meaning of saying their name is, the more you put into it, the closer you get to actually being convinced that this prostration is the realization that the saying the name And the prostration is realizing these amazing states of compassion and wisdom. Back to my story, I closed the white pages of the Abhidharma, closed them, and didn't throw them away, just put them on the shelf and thought, okay, that was that.

[33:51]

I checked it out. And I did that with a lot of scriptures I heard were really important. I read them and closed them and put them away. I heard they're important, you know, or she would bring them up again. I'd go back and open them again and close them and put them away. But as my effort intensified in relationship to these texts, the time came when the texts, when the lights went on and the text started to say hi and blood started to ooze out of the pages into the room and everything got really warm and encouraging. The same text which was like the white pages for years. But I kept going back to it. I kept paying homage to it. The meaning is not in the words. It comes forth in response to the giving of energy. If you keep putting energy into these names and keep feeling

[34:52]

oh and you keep doing it and you keep doing it the day oh oh oh yeah this is why i'm alive cool the day comes but a lot of people not you A lot of people, they read the text, and then they go find another text that's interesting, and they never go back to that one. It's fine that they go to another. I went to other texts too. That's fine. No problem. Please do that. But if you don't go back to this, it's not going to come alive if you're not devoted to it. The Buddha reality is not going to become alive unless you're devoted to it. It wants you to bring it alive, but you have to forgive yourself.

[35:58]

You have to say, please. Just like I was saying yesterday. I said, Reb, yes. Are you ready to commit? Yes. If you don't give yourself... even while it means nothing, you don't keep giving yourself, then that's it for now. But if you come back later and try again, and later and try again, if you keep trying, everybody who keeps trying realizes. And so the fact that many of you are continuing to chant these names, which you don't know who they are, it doesn't have any meaning, it's like the white pages, the fact that you keep doing it, and if you're giving quite a bit of yourself to the thing you're doing which has no meaning, that's the same as everybody, that all the ancestors were like that before they became ancestors. They all went through.

[37:00]

If we didn't need to go through this, then the ancestors would not have a job. Everybody would already have reality and there'd be no practice to do. So that you keep practicing is the point. And that is the realization, but quite a few times before you let go of your idea of what realization would be like. Realization is not what we think it's going to be like before it happens. It's not like that. It's something... Something beyond what we thought it was going to be. How are you doing? Do you know? Yeah, right. Is it okay? Great. Nora? When I think about those names of ancestors, They're more symbolic to me.

[38:03]

I think of all the beings who have contributed in bringing that Buddha's teaching, and I'm sure there are very important beings who are not on that list. No. So I don't dwell on the names per se, specifically. I'm thankful of all the beings who are there, the names who are not there, that would have contributed for me to study this experience. Do you think that's the same as what you're talking about? The way you're thinking about them, I think that's what Buddha ancestors are like. Buddha ancestors are beings who many people make into Buddha ancestors. Buddha ancestors depend on many conditions. And so they're not like something all by themselves. The word, the name of the Buddha ancestor is a symbol for a kind of being, the kind of being that maintains the eyes and face of the kind of being that all beings are supporting and that supports all beings.

[39:15]

That kind of being is what we're talking about. So your understanding is correct, but your thinking about it is okay. Your thinking about it is quite similar to saying, I don't know who this person is. The very thing you described is you wouldn't know who that person was. There wouldn't be something fixed there. The thing that's devoted to all beings and all beings are supporting to be a great... is not something you can find. So you can think about it, but your thinking is not going to reach it even though your thinking is correct. Somebody else could say, I don't know who that is or what that is. I don't know what a Buddha ancestor is. I don't either. But I do have some ideas, and my ideas are somewhat different. Or they might be somewhat different. Or another idea I might have is I have no idea who they are. That could be my idea. My ideas, your ideas, they're all welcome. The point is to invite this thing which you don't know what it is, to invite this thing which you don't speak of through language.

[40:22]

Use language to invite, like I say, Gordon, please come here. I say Gordon, but the word Gordon is not Gordon. I use that to get him to come. Hello, Buddha. Buddha's come. When you say, hello, Buddha, please come, that Buddha comes. And then when you bow, Buddha's manifested through your body, bowing. And once again, that is how As far as I know, all the Buddhas related to the other Buddhas, and they tell and do the same practice they did. I'm just amazed to tell you this, and happy to tell you this. But I don't know any more, really. I have maybe different ideas than you do, and I've had maybe a lot of ideas in the past, too, that you haven't. I've been thinking about this for a while, But my thoughts about it don't touch it and neither do yours, including you not knowing about it doesn't touch it.

[41:31]

But calling their name, even if you say, I forgot your name, but come anyway. Now, I even forgot the number, like I can't remember, was I inviting Buddha number six or Buddha number four? Anyway... I would like actually all of you to come now, please, even though I forgot your names. And if you want me to learn your names, let me know somehow, and I'll learn them. But for now, I'm just saying, please all come, and I'm bowing to you, and I haven't heard that this bow is manifesting you. And I would say, that's what I've heard too. And this bow is manifesting them, the Buddhas, but also karma, and it also manifests the sangha. It brings all the Buddhas and brings all the disciples. Everybody comes with that bow. You manifest the triple treasure by that physical and vocal action.

[42:35]

And also you have to think to do those. So you're thinking, I'm going to say the name. I am saying the name. and now I want to bow and I am bowing, so body, speech, and mind are now manifesting the Buddha ancestors. And this text is saying that's how they did it, that's how they manifest, and we can do the same. And, you know, I kind of think, well, there's a practical problem here now because We're not setting it up so that Brie can bow during the recitation, but I'd like to work out some ways that if you want to, you could get some more prostrations in your schedule. It's allowed here, by the way. Even if nobody else bit the dough, she's bowing during service. You could bow later if you wanted to. Not too much all at once, you know, but gradually you could do more like the Buddhas did.

[43:44]

Yes, Zondi? I may be going off in a totally different direction, but I'm hearing... I'm hearing the admonition to bow... kind of an indication for physical bodily surrendering. Physical bodily surrendering. But it has to do with using the body, not necessarily a specific shape of prostration, but the action of the body is a necessity to call forth a presence, you're matching body to idea or to bring it out, to make it alive.

[44:46]

So if you're not bowing, then maybe it's, for instance, what you've been talking about, the precepts, so enacting the precepts, would be a form of bowing? Yes. Look at the Bodhisattva precept. Number one is going for refuge in Buddha. The normal way of going for refuge in Buddha is to say, I go for refuge in Buddha to the Buddhas and to bow. That's the normal way of doing it. In other words, the normal way of doing it is through body, speech, and mind. To think, to speak, and to physically do it. That's the normal way. This first precept includes all the other ones. practicing not killing, practicing that precept, studying that precept, form a way to pay homage to the Buddhas who transmitted the precept of not killing.

[45:47]

If you're practicing the precept of not killing, you're paying homage to Buddhas. If you're thinking of it and saying it and physically devoting this body, like right now I'm sitting here, I could be devoting this body, this posture, these hand gestures, are being devoted to the precept of not killing. This is homage to Buddhas. This is going for refuge. So the first precept includes all the other ones. The attitude of practicing the precept of not killing should be similar to the attitude of bringing forth these Buddhas who we don't know who they are. In other words, we don't know who they are and we don't know what not killing is either. Quite a few people here seem to be kind of like, I really don't know who the Buddhas are, but I wonder how many here don't know what not killing is.

[46:49]

It's the same. We don't know any more about what not killing is than we know who Bibashi Butsu is. You can experience the precept not killing by bowing to Buddha. You can verify the precept of not killing by going for refuge in Buddha. That verifies it. With body, speech, and mind, so you have to use all you've got. You can't just do a part of yourself. You've got to do it with your whole being. So all these precepts happen at once when you prostrate to the Buddhas. And when you practice not killing wholeheartedly, you're going to . And when we do these things wholeheartedly, regardless of what we think, we are actually realizing reality.

[47:55]

And sometimes we do think, I think this is, this is, I don't know what reality is than anything else in my life. How wonderful. And then you can check to see, do you feel, you know, do you feel less afraid of other people? Do you feel less clinging to the substantiality of your separation? The fruits that come with this realization, namely great wisdom and compassion and loving-kindness, that you can also use those to check to see how you're doing with your going for refuge. With everything that you're saying, I think it's still, there is something missing if you really don't learn about the ancestors.

[48:56]

Like the or, you know, taking up some of these... I agree. You said, I think there's something missing if you don't study them. And I would say, yes, that's right. But I would also say that when you study them, something's missing too. Well, you become filled with the Dharma. When you become filled with the Dharma, then you feel like something's missing. When you become filled with the Dharma, you feel like something's missing. So you're filled with Dharma because you feel like something's missing. But that's good. But I'm disagreeing with you about that. But the implication that if you studied, if you learned lots about the Sixth Ancestor, that you wouldn't be missing anything, it's not that way. Not that you would not be missing anything, but more that the teachings come alive through knowing. Yeah, the teachings come alive every morning.

[50:03]

The more effort you put into the study of these people who you don't know, the more alive they will become. I remember this scene of being in China with you. Yeah. Dongshan's temple. Yeah. And I remember it was with mosquitoes going around and you started to bow. And I don't know, you probably did it 108 times. That's right. I counted them. And you looked in the creek, you know, where it said... Yeah. And you swam in the pond. The teachings came to life for you there. They did. And it would not have been possible if you didn't know anything about Dungsau. My experience was only possible because of my experience, past experience.

[51:05]

But somebody else who didn't have my experience could have had equally valid realization of the Buddha ancestors. You don't have to be somebody who's studied this number of years to have an authentic experience. But if you have studied a number of years, you can still have an authentic experience. It's possible for even someone who's been studying a long time to actually be wholehearted. It's possible. It's easier when you first start, but So are you disagreeing that students should also study the ancestors and know them? Am I disagreeing? No, I'm not disagreeing with that. Matter of fact, I'm saying that all the ancestors have studied the ancestors. So I think we should study the ancestors. But when you study the ancestors, make that study a prostration.

[52:14]

Make that study not just, I'm studying the ancestors. This study I'm doing of the ancestors is an expression of my devotion to you guys and your girls. This is not just me kind of getting knowledge about you, getting to know you. I'm actually meeting you with this study. I'm just upping the ante on the study. To make the study, just study. They didn't study just to learn about each other. They studied to meet each other and realize each other. And they did, according to them. How did they do it? By making body, speech, and mind, paying homage, and making body, speech, and mind the presence of the Buddhas. And study is one of the dimensions that we should use to bring their presence. Cooking lunch is another way. So cooking lunch... The Buddhas, when they cook lunch, they do it in homage to Buddhas.

[53:21]

When they do maintenance work, when they clean the zendo, When they answer the telephone, they do that as a prostration to the ancestors. They don't miss any opportunities to call. If they do, they're their ancestor on a break. And they say, I'm sorry. Yes? I think I just want to say that I feel tonight, I feel, for example, you really thoroughly studied ancestral doping. Like, what I hear you say all the time now is, for example, to study the soul, the way we study, then results in forgetting the soul. Yeah. I just wanted to say this to Jack. The way we study ourself is to go beyond ourself, forget ourself.

[54:29]

And the way we pay homage to Buddhas is to go beyond Buddhas. For example, what I find myself quite fascinating, for some reason, I don't know, I'm interested in dunksha right now. I don't know why. I don't know why either. So I hear this text, record suggesting about the truth there, and then I learn it was written hundreds of years later. However, the words, studying this stuff, the words are really alive from it. He might not ever have said this. So that's part of the study. Hmm? So, you know, the first case of the Blue Cliff Record is Bodhidharma goes to see the emperor.

[55:45]

The emperor says, what's the highest meaning of the holy truths? And he says, I don't know. Emperor says, who is this facing me? He said, vast emptiness, no holy, which is similar to I don't know. But anyway, he said, who is this facing me? And he says, don't know. Bodhidharma doesn't know who the emperor is. He doesn't know who he is. Ancestor doesn't know who he is. And I think he also doesn't know who his teacher is. And he doesn't know who his teacher's teacher is. However, I have this feeling like Bodhidharma is really devoted to himself who he doesn't know what that is, to the emperor, to his teacher.

[56:47]

And he bowed to his teacher, and his students bowed to him. And this way, the Buddha ancestors He went for refuge in his teacher, his teacher went for refuge in his teacher, blah, blah, blah. So-and-so went for refuge in Shakyamuni Buddha. Shakyamuni Buddha went for refuge with his previous teachers, went for refuge in their teachers. They all went for refuge in their teachers, and they all went for refuge in Buddha. And they didn't know who Buddha was, and they didn't know what their teacher was, but by going for refuge and paying homage to their teacher, they realized their teacher. Not that they're different from their teacher, but they realized what their teacher really is.

[57:54]

Yes, Charlie? So, when I think about Shakyamuni Buddha, How did he do this practice? Who does he bow to? He told us that he studied with Buddhas in the past. The historical Buddha said, I studied with so-and-so Buddha. Did he chant those names and bow? He told us about those people, about those previous Buddhas. Did he do prostrations to them? I don't know. But he told us that he did prostrations to them in previous lives. The historical Buddha in his early years leading up to his enlightenment, he did not remember in his less developed yogic condition, he did not remember his study with the ancient Buddhas. His memory of his study with the ancient Buddha came fairly close to the so-called awakening.

[59:01]

When he remembered then, he solved all the stories of his past studies with Buddhas. And then he told his students about it. And I don't think he exactly told his students to relate to him that way, but somehow they got the idea that that would be appropriate. And when they didn't relate that way, they often felt ashamed later. When they realized how wonderful this teacher was, that they didn't actually surrender. go for refuge in him. But he did the same. So there are spiritual teachers on the planet at this time who seem to have amazingly impressive presence. But in the Buddhist tradition, the teachers bow to the ancestors. So when the teachers come in to give a talk, usually they bow to the ancestors.

[60:05]

I'm playing the role of the teacher, but I also bow to the ancestors. Like the ancestors who played the role of the teacher bowed to the ancestors. From beginningless time, there's a succession of dependents. We don't exist by ourself. I just wondered if during service, when the doshi is bowing, during the recitation of the ancestors, in a way that bow, the doshi is the bow of the whole assembly. It is. Yeah. So in some, there's many meditation texts where they explain to you how to do all these prostrations and offerings and stuff before you sit in meditation. But in Zen temples, the situation is somewhat simplified for large groups to practice together.

[61:09]

Those texts are for when you're practicing by yourself. Then you have to do all this. You have to do all these prostrations, offerings, going around bowing to various Buddhas, if you're by yourself. And there's manuals which explain to you all these ceremonies you have to do to bring the Buddhas to be present with you when you do the practice. So part of the efficiency, but also kind of misleading quality of a Zen temple is that one person does it for the whole group, but some actually realize this person is doing it for them. So then when they hear about these practices, sometimes they say, why don't we do these? Well, we do. The Doshi does them. The doshi walks around the temple, visiting these altars, making offerings to the Buddhas, doing prostrations, but that's being done for all of us, so that we don't have like 60 people running around offering huge amounts of incense, polluting the atmosphere. It's efficient, so it'd be nice if we realized that the doshi is doing this for all of us to reduce pollution.

[62:15]

You know, not only incense, candle wax pollution, bowing pollution, walking pollution, chanting pollution, you know. So one person's walking around chanting, you know, quietly, instead of like 60 people walking around chanting quietly, bumping into each other. You know, maybe nobody ever managed to get to traffic problems. So creating a mandala is part of Zen practice. The word dojo, which they use in martial arts but also for Zen, it's a Chinese way of writing bodhi mandala. It's the mandala of enlightenment. That's where we practice. And mandalas need to be created every day. So we actually do that every morning here in Tathar and City Center. This mandala is created every morning.

[63:19]

Whatever wholeheartedness the doshis can muster that day. The doshi doesn't know what the mandala is, but they're manifesting it by this ritual for all of us. So we can all get in the zendo, get seated, and the mandala is created. and manifest reality, and manifest the Buddha ancestors, and manifest the Bodhisattva precepts, which is just short for manifest reality. And we don't have to be any different. And if we're wholehearted about it, that we will be tipped off to the realization which is going on by the form. And I just thought I might mention something, just if I may, and that is someone gave me some feedback that when interacting with some of the students here,

[64:35]

there was a sense of this fanatics. And I looked up the word fanatic, and the word fanatic means unreasoning enthusiasm. Go ahead. A fan. A fan. Fans. Fanatics. And so the enthusiasm is definitely part of the Buddha way. All Buddhas are enthusiastic. But they're not on reasoning. They're not on... They're not on... They're studying themselves... They're not just like fanatic without studying themselves. So I feel fine about, I mean I should say enthusiastic without studying themselves. I feel fine about the enthusiasm, but if you see anybody who's enthusiastic about studying themselves, please help them.

[65:43]

Please check in with them and see if they're looking at themselves and watching their enthusiasm and have some kind of wondering or questioning their enthusiasm. Now, if you see people aren't enthusiastic, please be enthusiastic. And then when they become enthusiastic, check to see if they're becoming unreasoning in this intoxicating zeal. So we might have some of that going on in Green Gulch. Some people are like really enthusiastic but are getting a little intoxicated and not studying in their enthusiasm, so they need help. But the people who aren't enthusiastic need help to be enthusiastic. I feel. Don't you? Because you're there. Enthusiasm manifests in different ways, though. It does. Yeah, my enthusiasm is different from yours.

[66:47]

That's part of the study. I don't judge you. You don't? But some people do. And that's part of their enthusiasm, perhaps. They're judging me. My vow is to enthusiastically welcome your judging of my enthusiasm. Although, I'm not saying I can always totally I really prostrate myself to that welcoming of your judgment of me. But I'm pretty clear about what I want to do. I want to welcome it. Yes? So, there are two kinds of don't know, and one is worthy of emulation and the other is Cautionary? I mean, because this whole... I never understand why Bodhidharmas don't know is one thing, and then, you know, poor Emperor Wu's don't know.

[67:59]

He, like, loses out on... He didn't say he didn't know. But he didn't recognize Bodhidharma. He had to ask who he was, right? I mean, he asks, who was that masked man? And, you know, then it gets too late. And you were also talking about how, you know, if you just say hi to a Buddha and then you realize later that, oh, whoops, that was a Buddha, and then we have to kind of confess and repent. So I'm just, I'd like to understand more what these different qualities of, I mean, because ignorance also seems like a, like one condition that suffering springs from. No. No. qualitatively different from the, you know, not recognizing Bodhidharma when he walks up to you and, like, does his thing, or not recognizing a Buddha and just saying, hi. Yeah, good, thank you. So when Bodhidharma says, don't know, I don't think in Chinese it says, I don't know.

[69:03]

So one, I think the translation in the Book of Serenity is, don't know. And some people add I. When Bodhidharma says, don't know, he means study yourself. You know, and I'm pretending like I don't. I'm just saying, you want to know who I am? You want to know who is facing you? Study yourself. That's what his don't know means. It doesn't mean that he doesn't know. It means he's studying himself and he wants you to do the same. I just feel like he was making an example of poor Emperor Wu and the emperor. Was that helpful? Was that a helpful way of speaking to... This is a whole other issue, but... I think it sounds like it's pretty... Because after he left, the emperor wasn't finished. He asked the court teacher who there was, and the court teacher told him it was Avalokiteshvara.

[70:09]

So that wasn't the end of his practice. I always thought it was the end, but it's like, wah, wah, wah. No, for the rest of his life, he was an enthusiastic Buddhist. So Bodhidharma shows up now. Because he was such an enthusiastic supporter of Buddhism and studied so thoroughly, he gets to meet Bodhidharma. He meets Bodhidharma, Bodhidharma gives him the instruction, and he can practice that the rest of his life. It's up to him whether he wants to follow Bodhidharma. And in the story, he didn't follow Bodhidharma. He could... Bodhidharma is not going to... He made a mistake. Yeah, he should have gone after Bodhidharma, not to bring him back, but to clarify how to study himself. And he didn't do that. But he could have still done some practice by staying, you know, continuing to do his job in the capital. So his practice might have gone... He was going quite well before. It came to kind of like... a wonderful climax, and he couldn't quite meet Bodhidharma at that time.

[71:11]

He, you know, he kind of missed it. But Bodhidharma then said, okay, now I'm going to go give you another chance. If you come to see me, you can take the next step with me. This is Avalokiteshvara giving him another chance. And maybe the emperor was like the fourth ancestor of Zen. Who knows? I mean, I haven't heard any ancestors saying where the emperor went afterwards and how he continued his practice after he died. I haven't heard stories about that. But it's not the end of his practice. This amazingly wonderful he served a great function in this story for many generations. For millions of Zen students, he served this, he enacted this jewel of Dharma.

[72:16]

His life was worthwhile up to that point because he did so much good things. And then at this point, he now was participating in this wonderful story which we now contemplate and wonder about Like you're doing. I have more questions, but I also don't want to drag this out. I don't. Well, it's fine. You don't have to. But you can if you want to. But if you don't want to, fine. Yuki? Can you say that louder, please? It's not so real to me yet. Everybody, everybody, each individual influences me.

[73:34]

However, there is a person very much influenced by a form, like a prostration, or my gassho, or... So when I do each form or each prostration, there is a... that person's image comes to me, and I want to be like that person, in a way. Yeah. and that image come and I bow with that person together. But when I'm listening to the story, maybe the way I practice is not right. I think that's a wonderful way to practice, when you do, that you actually feel like your hands are the hands of the person who taught you. For many years, when I put my hands together, actually I felt like these were Kadagiri Roshi's hands. Because he put so much energy into his gassho.

[74:38]

I really sort of... It wasn't exactly like I wanted to do his gassho, but somehow his gassho was so sincere that my gassho became sincere. And excuse me for saying this, but Kadagiri Roshi told his students that he really liked my gassho. Oh, that my gassho was homage to him. I don't think it occurred to me that I was... Maybe he did. He said, he's doing my gassho, you guys should do what he's doing. But anyway, I really felt... And my main teacher, though, my first teacher, Suzuki Roshi, but I did not copy Suzuki Roshi. The reason why I didn't copy it was because Suzuki Roshi's finger is broken. And I thought, so when he got showered, he got showered like this. Like this. This finger. This finger couldn't straighten because he broke it moving rocks. So he got showered like this. If you go to the city center, a stained glass thing of Katagiri Roshi's got showered like this.

[75:43]

And Suzuki Roshi's got showered with the bent finger. on the dining room doors. One's Katagiri Roshi's and one's Suzuki Roshi's. But for me, you know, you say, well, why didn't you copy Suzuki Roshi's? I thought that was, I just somehow thought that was a bit much to copy it, to copy his broken finger in my gassho. Or like if your teacher had a, you know, a dislocated hip that you would bow kind of with a limp or walk with a limp. And actually I So, Suzuki Roshi sent me to learn chanting from a visiting teacher who was a chanting expert from Eheiji Monastery. He was the Ino at Eheiji for 13 years and a very good chanter. So, Suzuki Roshi wanted me to learn chanting from him. And I learned his chanting and I copied all his little eccentricities of his chanting. And when Suzuki Roshi heard me do the chanting, he said, you're doing it too much like Katagiri Roshi.

[76:49]

He's an old Japanese man. He shouldn't do it exactly the same way. So he ironed out all those crinks and bumps that I'd copied, which is very embarrassing for him to go in there and iron out my chanting. But I didn't know I was copying the eccentricities of an old man from countryside Japan. But I think the spirit of paying homage by copying the ancestors, what the teacher does, because you love the teacher, of doing what the teachers practice. We love Shakyamuni, so we do his practice. He loves us, we love him, so we do his practice. We practice his dharma. I think that's fine. What I'm suggesting in addition to that is that all the Buddha ancestors, even the ones you can hardly imagine. And this T. Dogen, who is, you can't really, you've seen pictures of him, but you don't have a clear image of him.

[77:54]

Sometimes I wish, I'd like to see him. I'd like to see him for a second. I'd like to see Shakyamuni for just a little while. It'd be nice, wouldn't it? I'd like to see Shakyamuni again for just a few minutes. It'd be nice. So if you can see them, fine. If you can't, fine. The thing is that you can manifest them, actualize them by doing the practice that they said to do. You can't be able to copy them exactly because you haven't seen them. But you can copy somebody you have seen. That's fine. But don't stop there. Do all the Buddhas and ancestors by this bow. because they all... of manifesting their ancestors by this practice. And if you see somebody sitting in a beautiful way, you want to sit like that, fine, that's good. But do all the Buddha ancestors with that sitting, I would suggest.

[78:55]

Because that's, I think, more... I've been turning over in my mind this thing about devotion matching the physical body. The emotional body matching the physical body? The physical body following the emotional body. In other words, in my experience, For something to be real, it has to be more than an idea. It has to be a desire or impulse that's generated through some emotional contact. So Bree and Yuki both brought up kind of the same question.

[80:01]

Bree and her not being able to find a way in through the one book and a maze, and Yuki finding her way and her devotion to a teacher can envision and emulate in her gestures. Mm-hmm. And that just seems very fundamental to me, that that's where you begin, and to attempt to then extend that to all Buddhists and ancestors. becomes, at this point, more of an abstract and intellectual idea that would feel false. It would have to begin with the sense that I'm talking about of devotion.

[81:07]

generated through some, whether it's admiring a form or whether it's being drawn to a teaching or whatever it is that pulls you in. Mm-hmm. Thank you. So what I hope is that we also extend that this practice of manifesting the Buddhas and ancestors that every action become going for refuge in Buddha. Every action be paying homage to Buddhas. In other words, every action manifesting the Buddha ancestors. Every action of... every vocalization, every posture. I would like us to learn how to do that. Partly I feel like maybe if we change the form and had all of us doing prostrations during the names, that might be helpful.

[82:15]

But that's not so important to me, is that we would actually make the virtue of the Buddhas and ancestors manifest to make the virtue of the Buddhas manifest through all of our actions of body, speech, and mind, without changing any kind of ceremonies or having more people walk around in the morning or more prostrations. More prostrations is fine, but I would like us all to make every action a paying homage to wisdom and compassion. I would like that. I think that's what I want. And because the highest truth and not stuck in holiness, because of that, it's possible to make every action

[83:30]

Because there's no essence to prostration or cooking, it's possible to make both of them manifest the Buddha's and ancestor's virtue. Because everything is vast emptiness and not stuck in any limited idea of holy, we can constantly go for revision Buddha. We don't have to stop driving the car. May I extend to every place Way of the Spirit.

[84:30]

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