I'd like to look again at the first case of the Book of Serenity. The world-honored one entered the hall and ascended the seat. Manjushri struck the gavel and said, clearly observe the Dharma of the King of Dharma. The Dharma of the King of Dharma is thus.

[01:04]

And the World Honored One got down from the seat. By the way, in Soto Zen ceremonies, which are called sometimes Ascending the Mountain, when the monastery invites a new abbot, and then they invite the new abbot for the first time as abbot, another Zen teacher strikes the gavel and says, clearly observe that Dharma is thus. So here's this case and so please look at this case.

[02:10]

And so I'm suggesting that we, you, look at the case, but how do you look at a case like this? How do you look at a story like that? So this is a story about the Buddha teaching, right? And the Buddha presents herself to the assembly, getting down from the seat and leaving. Yes, Alan? Is this an assembly of very learned and senior people? You know, when you look at the story like maybe you did, you might ask, who's in the assembly? Yeah. It does seem important. Yeah. It seems very important who he's talking to.

[03:15]

So that's one of the things that might happen if you look at the story. You might wonder. You might wonder. I actually would encourage us to wonder when we look at this story. And do you think I would encourage you to wonder when you look at anything? Alan? Probably. Yeah, I would. That doesn't surprise anybody, does it? I was wondering. Jane's been making a big effort as she's so, she gets kind of tired, but there's still some life left in the old... There's still something coming out of there. It's good, Jane. So you see the story and you start wondering.

[04:23]

And so Alan wonders, well, I wonder who he's talking to. Or not talking to. Yeah, right. Well, we have one little hint, you know, that there just happens to be The Bodhisattva perfect wisdom just happens to be there and happens to have a hammer. We don't know who else is there. You know, it could be, there's a lot of possibilities here. I feel. Because this is a story about the Buddha coming to... There could be a wide, pretty much limitless possibilities of who's there. So that's one of the things that Alan's wondering about. He's wondering who is he talking to, or not talking to. The story includes Mahjushri.

[05:23]

Hmm? story includes Manjushri's making this introduction. Yeah. So getting down, it's not just that the Buddha sits and then leaves the seat, but he leaves the seat presumably in response to Manjushri's declarations. Catherine's looking at the story and she thinks maybe the Buddha gets down from the seat in response to Manjushri's declaration. That's a possibility. You know, and here's another possibility. He's sitting there teaching the Dharma to everybody. Manjushri thinks maybe somebody's missing it, so he points out where it is. And then after Manjushri does that, the Buddha says, okay, I've got to go now. You've ruined the lecture. Yeah, that would be a response. The other thing is that no matter what he does, whether he stayed or left, the Buddha can't help but respond to whatever Manjushri does.

[06:34]

That's one of the meanings, but that's not the only meaning. Another possible example is that this story, the meaning of this story is you should look at the story. The meaning of this story is you should wonder what the story is about. And the meaning of the story is we shouldn't stop wondering about the story. That's a meaning. Now you might say, well that's particularly maybe a meaning for people in particular Zen lineage, because they feel responsible for the story. So they should keep thinking about it all the time. It's like one of their babies. They take care of it all the time. They never forget this story.

[07:38]

Teaching of the Buddha is thus. So if you ever have a thus on you, if there's ever a thus, Have you ever read thus? Whenever you have a thus, that's the teaching of the Buddha. And if you have trouble seeing a thus, well then, look for it, because that would be the teaching of the Buddha. It's another meaning. And I wouldn't even say, and I think part of wondering is, um, is that we don't even know what wondering is. I mean, not that we don't know what wondering is, but we should wonder, what is wondering? Maybe wondering would be to stop thinking about this story and move on to another one. Like the next story, Dharma, talking to the emperor.

[08:44]

So there's another thing I would suggest, I would encourage us to wonder, what's the meaning of that story? Or what is that story? Or who was that guy? And again, that story is usually used as the case in the head monk. So maybe that case will be brought up in Jane's case, Jane's shiso ceremony. Year after year, for some number of centuries, and particularly in Japan, I don't know about China, but Japanese Rinzai and Zen monasteries, they bring up this case and the people wonder about it. Century after century, they're wondering about this case and responding to this case, looking at this case of the meeting between these people and wondering, wondering about it, sometimes expressing their understanding that arises from their wonder.

[09:44]

to their teacher and their teacher then responds to their response to the wondering about this case. Does that make sense that that story might be told? So in this class I would encourage you now to look at the Bodhisattva precepts. the first Bodhisattva precept in this tradition, and in some sense the first precept of all Buddhist traditions is going for refuge in Buddha. In this class, we look at that, we wonder what that is. We wonder what that is, just like we wonder what is this story about the World Honored One? What is this story about Bodhidharma and the Emperor? What is this story about the What kind of a relationship does the Buddha have with his students? We wonder about that. We wonder, what kind of relationship does Bodhidharma have with the emperor and the people in China?

[10:50]

We wonder about that. I mean, we wonder about it if we're studying this tradition. Maybe you're wondering about that. Good. But it seems to me that these stories are offering for our wonder, for our enjoyment, for our devotion, for us to go for refuge, for us to worship these stories. Worship doesn't mean you like the stories. Worship means you praise them. Worship means you think they're worthwhile. And maybe some of you say, well, I don't know if that Book of Serenity is worthwhile. I don't know if I would worship it. Fine. Do you want to worship the next one? No, I don't like the next one either. Well, just keep going through the text until you find something that you can worship.

[11:54]

and I think part of the worship is, I think this is worthwhile, and I also wonder what it is. I think the Buddha, I think these Buddhas and Buddha ancestors, I want to go for refuge in them, I want to pay homage to them, I want to praise them, and I also want... I pay homage to Suzuki Roshi, and when I first really met him face to face, My basic take on the meeting was I wondered what was going on. I really felt good that I didn't know what was happening. I felt that if I thought I had known what went on between us, that would have been okay. Like, for example, if I thought he was a great Zen master or he really liked me or he indicated that I met him well. But I didn't get any of those indications.

[13:03]

I also didn't get an indication that I met him badly. But there was a possibility that I did. That was not ruled out. That I kind of was disrespectful to him. That was a possibility. I felt that. I mean, I went to the meditation hall and met him at the door. That was a form that they practiced. And I bowed to him. But his response made me feel like maybe I was disrespectful the way I looked at him. I did look at him, and he looked away. Maybe I offended him, or maybe I was disrespectful, but I didn't know. And I thought of, in a few seconds, or not even a few seconds, in a second, I thought of several other possibilities. And then when I walked by him down the hall, I thought, I felt really kind of like, this seems right. I didn't feel exactly good.

[14:05]

I felt like, I think this is the way it's supposed to be. Like, I wonder what happened. This seems like, yeah, a good meeting with somebody who I think can help me become like a person. Yes, Gerlina? In some ways, this is repeating Amy's question. Say again? In some ways, I feel like I'm repeating Amy's question, but I'm curious if there's a difference between wonder and confusion. I think... You said you're... Or you're wondering about that? I'm... I have a question about that. Because when I hear the cases, I feel more... Yeah, I feel a sense of confusion. And so... You feel confusion? And so you're wondering if maybe you're... Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think wonder would...

[15:06]

I think big time wonder, you know, total wonder would be wondering whether wonder was different from confusion. That would be one of the wonders, wonderings. I think it's possible, you know, but I wonder about what I'm about to say. I think it's possible that wondering completely includes everything. So you can certainly wonder about confusion, and you can wonder about reality, and you can wonder about the reality of confusion. Like if you see something and you think it's wondrous or wonderful, and then you turn to something else and you feel like, this isn't wonderful, I would say, well, I hope you wonder about that, about designating it as not wonderful.

[16:25]

This person's wonderful and this person's wonderful, but this person isn't wonderful. I hope you wonder about that. Yeah, so how can we be wholeheartedly devoted to study something or wonder, I think, is part of it. And if you wonder, but that makes you kind of hold back your energy and not be enthusiastic. I would wonder about that kind of wonder. To me, when I wonder about something, I don't like, kind of like, I guess I don't feel like, well, I wonder about it and I'm going to like, the wonder draws a line. open to and interested in anything. I don't feel that wonder does. Other things might hold back and draw lines, but the wonder doesn't. The wonder is kind of like, it's like welcome to me.

[17:31]

That's what I mean. So now again, towards these stories, towards any... Towards the precept, can you wonder and can you practice that wonder? Like Manjushri says, clearly observe. In other words, you know, pay attention here. Give yourself to this situation. Take care of it. Observe clearly. Give yourself to this story. in an aware, attentive, awake way. Now do the same with the precepts. And by the way, I want to mention that the verse celebrating the case of the world on and when ascending the seat starts off by saying the unique breeze of reality, can you see it?

[18:38]

Yes, Bri? I just was thinking... And what had come up for me was the phrase, the emperor wears no clothes. And I'm not really sure what that means, but I'm kind of stuck on that. And that... I feel like that's keeping me from wondering more about... I'm just kind of... Even though I'm wondering what that phrase means, I have ideas about that, but I feel like when you wonder, you kind of can also hit a wall of... Oh, okay, that's what it means. And then how do you keep it fresh and keep wondering? Yeah, so that's what I was just saying to Jirlina. I think wonder may be followed by, I got it. But then the wonder is stopped. It's nice, it's okay. I think it's okay that the wonder stops too.

[19:57]

You know, the wonder is over. We hit the end of the road because we got the answer. We got an answer in the wondering process. That's okay. It's okay if it's dead. Wonder would be open to wonder being dead. lost. If you're not open to losing, I think your wonder is half-hearted. But then you can recover and wonder again. So it's okay to get answers, but the answer is a temporary break in the process of wondering. And wisdom can have rhythm like, okay, we got wisdom going here and now we don't. Okay, what was it again? Okay, wonder. Turn it on again. Start questioning. It's not really wonder if it's like it's turned on and like... It has to be... We have to keep being devoted to it.

[21:07]

So, yeah. So, I'm saying take care of the story. And don't let answers stop you from continuing to take care of it. It's not like you study the story, get the answer, move on to the next one. It's more like take care of the story, get an answer, and take care of the story. And maybe not get an answer, and take care of the story, and get an answer. In the autumn, in the winter, in the spring, in the summer, take care of the story. which is a meaning of in the autumn, in the winter, in the spring, in the summer, go for refuge in Buddha. But again, going for refuge in Buddha, it's not like, okay, I know what that is. I got the answer to what that is. I think going for refuge in Buddha is like wondering what the story is, wondering what is going for refuge in Buddha. And I feel like treating going for refuge in Buddha as a wonder, as something of innumerable meanings, is to approach going for refuge in Buddha as reality, not as something which is your idea of going for refuge in Buddha.

[22:28]

And the same with, jumping ahead a little bit, the precept of not to kill. The precept of not to kill or the precept of not killing. That precept. And that's a precept that's so important that people tense up around it. And they even think, you've got to tense up around not killing. You've got to be sure about what it means. You can't be flexible because then somebody might get killed. It's true. If you're flexible, somebody might get killed. It's true. And if you're not flexible, somebody might get killed. This is a big issue here. Life might be taken that we become self-righteous about, we can become self-righteous about this precept.

[23:30]

And I'm saying, take care of these Zen stories if you want to be a Zen person. person. If you want to be a Zen person, a bodhisattva. And take care of them with this wonder that you would give to looking at reality. What is the reality? Where is the reality of the Buddha coming into the room, going up the wall? I see the Buddha's body. Where is the reality? Where is the unique breeze of reality? Where is it? What is it? And looking at the precept of not killing, where is the unique? If I'm looking at this as not just an instruction to me, but a presentation of reality to me.

[24:32]

Yeah, I wonder about the precepts about not dealing in intoxicants or not taking intoxicants for oneself. And I wonder about psychoactive drugs, and I wonder what the Buddha's teaching would be. And I wonder what the ultimate breeze of reality in that precept is. Yeah. Especially in relationship to psychoactive drugs, because I also wonder, like, about, you know, how some people who have gotten into this practice have taken them. And I wonder, like, might have affected how they came into this. And I wonder, like, well, if I haven't taken them, like, how did I end up here? You know? And I wonder how I end up here regardless, but now I'm wondering about that. Yeah, you see, wondering about the precept of not selling or not taking in intoxicants.

[25:48]

A friend of mine, a friend of Zen Center's who's an ordained Soto Zen priest, before he came he was very much involved in the psychedelic scene and then when he was at Zen Center he wasn't involved in it. But then now he's working research on the use of LSD. And so in Europe, there's research, you know, government-supported and legal research on using LSD, but maybe also using ecstasy, I'm not sure. But anyway, drugs in conjunction with therapy. And I think he's feeling encouraged at the potential benefits of some people who are particularly suffering from traumatic stress to do therapy with some of these chemicals around the trauma.

[27:10]

So I guess one theory would be if you can go back and look at the trauma with the aid of this drug, you can be with the trauma and relax with it. maybe be healed. And it's not like you use the drug over and over, but maybe one or two sessions, and they've maybe found, I don't know if I have the data exactly right, but they found in just one or two sessions, people with long-standing disability, trauma, seem to really be healed, who have been doing lots of other therapies for years and haven't gotten anywhere. So you say, well, that seems like some people use these things sort of, they seem to use them maybe to just manipulate their consciousness. So what is it to take a medicine? When you take a medicine, and what are you doing when you eat?

[28:13]

Like some people say, well, eating actually is a kind of intoxication. You're adjusting your blood sugar level with food, you know. So what is the reality of this precept? What's it pointing to? And again, if this precept is offered as a case of reality, we should wonder about a Zen koan. And the meanings here are innumerable. And so what does not using intoxicants mean? Right. And again, the meanings are innumerable. So the meanings are innumerable.

[29:17]

The wonder isn't exhaustible. But the question is, are you wondering about it? Or do you just come to a meaning and then stop wondering and stop paying attention to the precept? Are you receiving and observing them? Are you observing these precepts moment by moment and wondering about them moment by moment? So some people say, I wonder about it, but then they don't, they wonder about it for one moment, but they don't wonder about it throughout the day, throughout the week, throughout their life. They don't take care of it. They're not committed to it. So the first precept is, go for revision Buddha. Well, do you do it once? Do you wonder about reality once? Or do you wonder about reality, do you aspire to wonder about reality constantly? And maybe you say, I aspire to wonder about it constantly, although I cannot yet do it.

[30:29]

I keep forgetting. I aspire to remember these precepts, each one, all the time. I aspire how to take care of all these Bodhisattva precepts in every moment. And then the way I've taken care of them then is I wonder what they are, moment by moment. I'm devoted to them, but I don't grasp them. And I've heard that being devoted to them without grasping them realizes them. Or that being devoted to reality without grasping it and realizing it realizes these precepts. And it's usually recommended that you don't just study koans, but the precepts. Usually people don't say, follow the koans. They just say, follow the precepts.

[31:31]

Sometimes we say, observe the koans and observe the precepts. So then they start to practice sound similar. Wonder about the precepts and then learn to do that throughout the day. And find some people who also want to do that with you. who also want to take care of the precepts and wonder about them all day long. Because otherwise, you know, it's really hard to remember if people don't want to remember it and even tell you to stop it and just get over it and decide what they mean. Yes? Yes, I'm wondering about the precepts taking refuge in Buddha, would you? I've been wondering about it since I got here and before as well. And since I don't really know what Buddha is, I have an idea about what Buddha is.

[32:33]

So would you encourage me to look? I haven't taken refuge officially, but if I would, would taking refuge in Buddha mean, would a good way to approach be to wonder about reality? Or how should I? I hesitate to say excellent. That would be a wonderful way to go for refuge in Buddha, is to wonder about reality. I think that Buddha would be very happy. If you were honoring Buddhas by wondering, Yeah. And honoring Buddhas by going for refuge in Buddha or paying homage to Buddha is honoring them.

[33:37]

Say, going for refuge in Buddha is honoring Buddha. I would say that. But I don't mean to say that and have you stop wondering what I just said. And I also don't mean that that's the only meaning of going for refuge in Buddha, is to honor Buddha. I just say, you know, what's a year? A year is, well, a year is like Monday night. It's a year. Well, how about Tuesday? Well, Tuesday is also a year. What? Well, a year has 52 Mondays in it or something like that, doesn't it? So a Monday is an example of a year. It has Mondays. So I could say a year has Tuesdays, Monday because we're calling it Monday today.

[34:42]

Now, what's the Sangha? Well, it's Frederick. Well, is it also Myo-yu? Yes. These are examples of the Sangha. You say, well, why don't you say it's all? Well, yeah, you can say that too. So when you're saying that, one of my stories that I bring up quite frequently is of a person quite a developed person who was a teacher of many people. And one time he was meditating. A thought crossed his mind. I wonder if my understanding is complete. I wonder if my understanding of reality is complete. He wondered that. And a celestial being appeared to him and said, it's not. And this person is a developed spiritual teacher who not only had many students but was somewhat humble.

[35:54]

In other words, he was open to maybe his understanding. And he expressed that in such a way that divine beings in the neighborhood came to him. One of them came to him and said, you're not or it would be fine to explore that more deeply. And it happens that we have someone on the subcontinent who can help you with this. And he's the Buddha. His name's Gautama the Buddha. And he lives... Right now he's in... Right now he's in Bharnasi. I hear about a teacher... a being who could help him with his understanding. And he wonders about that. He wonders about his understanding and he wonders, who can help me? Maybe this person can help me. And he's probably wondering, how is this person, how is this person going to help me?

[36:59]

Wondering, what kind of a relationship am I going to have when I meet this person? He's probably, I don't know, I can imagine that he's having a really good time thinking about What kind of a relationship am I going to have with this Buddha, who I understand lives on this continent, who I'm going to go see? We don't know exactly whether he had some fixed idea of what this teacher was going to be like. But I have a feeling he really didn't know what the teacher was going to be like. I had that feeling. He was going to meet somebody who he valued before he met him. person was going to be like who he valued partly by hearsay from a divine being who by the way was a pre in a previous life was a disciple of the buddha so he heads off to meet the buddha going for refuge in buddha already he's trying to go meet the buddha he's gonna he's gonna go

[38:06]

pay homage to the Buddha when he meets him. That's probably his intention. Meanwhile, back in Varanasi, which is pretty far away from where this guy was. So here's India like this. Okay? And northeast India. The Buddha's in Varanasi. Varanasi is on the Ganges. And then there's a place where this guy was. So this guy was here, kind of like maybe like southwest of Varanasi and Rajagriha and Buddhists in Varanasi. So this guy, after hearing this word, he sets out to meet Varanasi. The Buddha around that time says to his monks, he says, I'm going to take a walk. And I'm going to go by myself with no attendant.

[39:11]

So the Buddha is walking. The Buddha decides to take a walk. And this guy is taking a walk to Raja Griha and finds housing in a potter's shed on his way to pay his respects to the Shakyamuni Buddha. Shakyamuni Buddha is coming by coincidence to Raja Griha. probably knows this guy is coming to see him and wants to go meet him. He could wait for him back home where he'd be surrounded by all the students. And when the guy came, he would see the Buddha. He would see this group and then he would kind of see everybody's gathered around. Probably the Buddha there. And the Buddha surrounded by the students, the Buddha would look kind of glamorous. But now the Buddha is walking down the street, not looking too glamorous.

[40:13]

He could look glamorous, but he doesn't apparently. Because when he comes to town, he goes to this house that this guy's in, and he says to the potter, can I stay here? And the potter says, you can stay in my shed, but there's already somebody staying there, so if you ask him, and it's okay with him, it's okay. When the potter saw the Buddha, the Buddha didn't have his glamour on, didn't have lots of monks around him. And the potter didn't go, the Buddha. The potter meant the Buddha, and the potter didn't know it was Buddha. But this potter, he actually paid homage to wandering monks. He put up monks in his house. So he had some respect for yogis. But he didn't see, he didn't know this was the Buddha.

[41:14]

And the Buddha enters the shed with the man who's coming to see him, the man who wants to go for refuge. And he sees the person who he wants to go for refuge in, but he doesn't know it's the Buddha. Now, if he had an idea before he came that the Buddha I'm going to go for revision looks like this Shakyamuni Buddha who's coming, but he couldn't do that. He wasn't that in his yogic ability. He couldn't see what the Buddha looked like before he met him. So when he saw the Buddha, he thought, oh, this is another monk like me. But anyway, they spent some time together, and then he saw... that this person was the Buddha. Though, the Buddha didn't tell him and didn't show him, you know, like, do you see the little things on my hands? See the webbing between the fingers? The Buddha didn't show him any of that stuff. But the Buddha talked to him, and as he was talking to what the Buddha is,

[42:24]

So the Buddha cannot be recognized by Marx. The Buddha says that. And yet he was recognized. And when he saw him, then he said, I want to go for refuge in you, with you. Even though he was already doing it, now he wanted to officially do it. But it wasn't exactly that he wanted to go for refuge in this person that he could see. He wanted to go for refuge in the Buddha that he awoke to. this Buddha which is not separate from this person, but in a way it's not the person because he saw the person and he didn't see the Buddha and then he saw the person and he saw the Buddha. If you concentrate on the precept of not taking life, and you study it as reality, you're also going for refuge in Buddha.

[43:29]

If you grasp this precept in a narrow way, in some sense, even though you'd like to go for refuge in Buddha, you're missing out on Buddha. So can we take care of these precepts like koans? I think a lot of people at Green Gulch want to take care of these precepts. But now I'm just trying to say, can you take care of them as reality, as koans? Can you take care of them without grasping what they are? Can you take care of them and allow some confusion about what they might mean? Like, should you take LSD or not? I don't know. Listen to my friend talk about about it and I think, sounds good. But I'm not telling people to take LSD. And also I don't find myself in a position of saying, don't take LSD.

[44:40]

I find myself in the position of what? Where do I find myself? Yeah, I come to wondering about this precept. I wonder. I wonder about this precept. I don't quite tell the students here not to take LSD. I don't quite tell the students here not to drink. I don't quite tell the students to drink alcohol. But I wonder about this precept and I wonder about drinking alcohol. I really would like to wonder about this precept. And I would really want you to wonder about it for the rest of your life. And I wonder if that wouldn't be really helpful and wonderful. I kind of think it would be wonderful if we all took care of that precept and continuously wondered about it. And wondered about, you could also wonder about how would it be possible to be that wonderful? Yeah.

[45:43]

But that's what I aspire to, is everybody being that wonderful or that full of wonder that there's infinite wonder. There's no end to what you can wonder about. You wonder about the precepts, you wonder about not the precepts. So you also, if you're committed to the precepts, you say, well, I'm also committed to wonder about not the precepts. Fine. But don't think that being committed to not the precepts would go with not being committed to the precepts. So usually we encourage and then also be committed to wondering about not the precepts. Isn't that like really clear and difficult? Isn't that wonderfully difficult? And the precepts are wonderfully difficult and the precepts are do something that's wonderfully difficult.

[46:46]

practice these precepts constantly, wholeheartedly, and constantly meditate on reality. Never, you know, learn to do that. He said or wrote about something like, to observe the precepts is to, one needs to have complete understanding of reality, something like that. And I guess I'm still wondering what is complete understanding. So you're wondering, what is complete understanding of reality? And I say, good. Also, I think it would be good if you wondered about what's incomplete understanding of reality. I think probably a number of us have felt that maybe we have incomplete understanding of reality sometimes.

[47:57]

So when we feel confused, I feel confused, and so maybe I don't have a complete understanding of reality. Right? You might feel that way. Well, I would say wonder about that. Don't stop wondering when you feel confused. Don't stop wondering when you think, maybe I don't have a complete understanding. Also, if you think somebody else doesn't have a complete understanding, don't not wonder then. Or I should say, wonder then too. Sometimes people would say stuff, you know, like blah, blah, and then Suzuki Roshi would say, oh, maybe that's your understanding. Or sometimes he would maybe shorten it to, that's your understanding. And of course, it was their understanding, but sometimes they thought it was more than just their understanding. So I'm kind of hearing not to be stuck on complete.

[49:00]

Not to be stuck on good and also not to be stuck on incomplete would be good. Not to be stuck on perfect would be good and not to be stuck on imperfect would be good. And to become perfect at not being stuck on perfect would be good. And I wonder about what I just said. Christina, just a minute. Matt? Pass, Matt. Christina? I'm sewing right now, and I check now, and somehow I've lost the meaning of the word refuge. You've lost the meaning? Well, I have a suggestion that you give away the meaning and then wonder about what giving is. And I would say that one of the precepts is not being possessive. One of the Dharma treasures is sewing the robe.

[50:04]

Another Dharma treasure is going for refuge. Namukhiye Butsu is a dharma kind of treasure, a dharma resource. The precepts are dharma resources. And one of the precepts is do not be possessive of dharma resources. One of the precepts is do not be possessive of these precepts. Do not be possessive of going for refuge in Buddha. Some people are wonderfully ...amazingly possessive of going for Reficient Buddhists. This is my going for Reficient Buddhists. It's mine. Some people come to Zen Center and they don't want their spouse to come because they want it to be their Zen Center. Some people start practicing and they don't want their spouse to start practicing because this is my practice. You stay away. This is mine. Zen is mine. You can be a Taoist, but I... You can have Taoism, but don't... Zen is mine.

[51:10]

There are actually people who talk like that. And sometimes they're kidding. But sometimes they don't think they're kidding. You mean I can't go to the Zen center? No, I don't want you there. Can I go to a different Zen center? No, it's still too close. you'll take over. When you come and take over, you know you would be a better student than me and blah blah. So, refuge in Buddha? Don't be possessive of that. Give it away. But giving it away is practicing it. Ignoring it I wouldn't necessarily encourage. But you're not ignoring it, right? You're saying namukie butsu. Yeah, so every time you say it, give it away. Every time you say, wonder what it is.

[52:12]

If meaning comes, okay, it's okay with me. If some meaning comes to you, you're selling away, boom. Whoa, meaning. Whoa, whoa, whoa. A big one. Fine. It's okay. This is another Dharma resource, this meaning. Give it away. And go back to your stitch and your refuge. Actually, when Buddha comes to meet you while you're going for refuge, Buddha will... In the meeting with Buddha, you'll let go. You won't attach to the refuge. Mad? Practicing Zen, going to different Zen centers, I was really intent on finding the meaning of all these different terms and like what is it to like save all beings and what do we mean when we say Dharma gate, you know, just like terminology stuff.

[53:17]

And I feel like the To ask about the meaning about these things for me now doesn't really mean so much. I don't really wonder so much at the meaning, but I kind of wonder at maybe like a feeling. Sometimes I get a certain feeling for going for refuge in Buddha. If you ask me what it is to go for refuge in Buddha and what's the meaning of that, I might say something, but it's not going to be this kind of feeling that I have sometimes, which is not always the same. That it was really necessary to have some sort of initial meaning that I kind of like established, but that now I don't really need that so much. A Sanskrit word, artha.

[54:22]

Arta. And the word Arta can be translated as meaning or object. And oftentimes when that character gets translated into Chinese, they translate it sometimes into... Yeah. Yeah. they don't seem to have a word which just means, that really mostly means both of them, like the Sanskrit words. So they often go into using the Chinese character for object or the Chinese character for meaning. They're two different characters. But the Sanskrit... The Chinese sort of take turns according to the situation to say meaning. So when you first practice Zen, usually you need an object or a meaning. For me, I think there was both, but I kind of alternated.

[55:24]

For me, I could see an object of Zen, like this sitting posture. That was the object of Zen practice. But the meaning, I guess I didn't think the meaning was that object. But then again, you say the object of this is almost like the meaning of the practice. The object of this practice is to be compassionate. So that's the meaning of this practice, is to be compassionate. So a meaning or an object, we do kind of need it at the beginning. Like he said, when I first started practicing Zen, I thought of Seigen Gyoshi. He said, when I first started practicing Zen, mountains were mountains. And Matt said, when I first started practicing Zen, meaning was meaning. But then after I practiced for a while, meaning was not meaning. After many years of practice, meaning is meaning again. I don't think I'm there yet.

[56:27]

During the Jukai ceremony yesterday, I heard Linda Ruth talking about the precepts, and it struck me that that line in the ceremony, for the meaning is in living them, it's similar to saying the meaning is in wondering them. Mm-hmm. And also you can also say, and the object of the precepts is in living them. Meaning and object, they both work. The object of these precepts is to live them, is to be them. The object of these precepts is for reality to be these precepts, to have a world of not killing, not stealing, not trashing people, not being arrogant, and so on. The meaning of these precepts is for us to be that way. And also, I would say that it will help us to be that way if we also wonder what they mean.

[57:37]

But again, and then not practice them, not wonder and then forget about them. Like, what do they mean? So I'm going to go do something where I don't wonder. But stay with them. And I would say, in some ways, if you can't remember them and wonder, maybe it's better to forget about wonder. Wondering is going to mean you're not going to think about them anymore. Well, then go and, you know, don't wonder about them and just say, this is what they mean and I got them. So it's probably better to be attached to them, even though that's not... The meaning of them will not come if you're attached to the meaning of them. But at least if you're devoted to them, narrow, clinging way, at least you're orienting towards it properly. I mean, you are oriented towards it, even though it's improper. Which is sort of like when you first practice Zen, we need an object or a meaning. And we get it.

[58:41]

We think we've got it. And we need that. But I think it's going to be a more sustainable practice if you wonder about them. But again, if you start wondering and say, well, I started wondering and then I didn't think about it. I probably should have stopped wondering and gotten narrow-minded again. And like, you know, get uptight again. And it's really important to remember these precepts and hold on to them. And we say, hold and protect these precepts. Take care of them. Protect them. Don't let them be lost. So how can you take care of something and not let it be lost and really wonder about it? That's the trick. I walked in on the back end of a conversation this evening which was between two people about killing and... Where was the conversation taking place?

[59:54]

Where was the conversation taking place? In the dining room. Uh-huh. And... I'm happy to hear that people... steps in the dining room. Anyway, the conversation ended just after I got there, and I hadn't spoken, but I was wondering about how it got to where it got to. And so the main thing that would come into me was this idea that the non-killing thing but actually in today's society it seems like there are perfectly reasonable people who take a great deal of care about the uh being the beings the animals that they hunt and then eat and they uh and that they do with a great deal and attempt to being humane whereas also at the same time it seems that many people who sort of

[61:11]

don't know the back end of a donkey, could eat, will eat meat without, without having a beer. I wouldn't dream of killing it actually. It would be quite, quite sort of abhorrent, but can quite easily eat. And I'm just, so I've been wondering during, since then, It's possible that the persons who do that are actually in a way sort of following that precept in a way that the people who just don't eat meat don't take any care at all about the animal. I do see what you mean, yeah.

[62:14]

So I can wonder about what you just said. You know, is it possible for people to be more intimate with the precepts than other people? And could it be that someone who somebody who would actually say, I think I killed that animal. Is it possible the person who says, I killed that animal, is more wholeheartedly trying to practice not killing than somebody else who says, I will not kill, but I do eat meat, but I don't think I kill. That's what they think. And that the person who is killing also wonders what killing is. And the person who doesn't think they are killing is not wondering what killing is. But it's also possible the person who thinks that they're not killing and who is not eating meat or dairy products, that they still wonder what killing is and they don't know

[63:29]

if they're not killing. They don't know that they're not killing. They're wondering if they are. They're wondering what the precept means. Who look like they're killing to them, and also who admit that they think they're killing, they wonder, in that case, is that killing? So I said at the beginning of class something like, and Charlie said something like this expression, love conquers all, right? Did you bring that up? Love conquers all? No, several classes ago. Didn't you? Oh, good triumphs over evil. There's also love conquers all, isn't there? Right? There's also love is all that's real. Everything else is illusion. Love is all there is. Love is all there is. Love is all you need. All you need is love. So anyway, love is all that's real, everything else is illusion.

[64:32]

But there is illusion. So I would not exactly agree, I would bet on love is all that's real. I would bet on that. And I would bet on everything else is illusion. But also I bet that there is illusion. That illusion exists in the same way that love exists. But love is real and illusion is illusion. And violating these precepts is illusion. But illusion deserves wonder just like love does. I wonder why there aren't more songs about illusion. Lots of them, yeah. Most. No, no. There are lots, but he wonders why there aren't more.

[65:36]

He's wondering why there aren't more. I hear a lot of songs about love. I wonder if they're about illusion. Well, what a lot of people mean by love is attachment. I wonder if attachments are illusions. Attachments are illusions, yes. In fact, it's not possible to attach. It's an illusion. But that doesn't mean we don't love the illusion. We practice reality with illusions. Want to hear an example of an illusion? The World Honored One came into the hall and assembled the seat. Huh? Assembled? The World Honored One assembled the seat. He was a carpenter. Jesus was a carpenter. Jesus is the World Honored One too. That's an illusion.

[66:39]

That was an illusion by which the World Honored One taught on that occasion. Then Manjushri, another illusion, says, look at that. People who are involved in discriminating consciousness, seeing illusions and delusions, now the World Honored One enters so they can see and orient towards the World Honored One. The World Honored One appears and says, I'm here, wonder about this. I've come for you to wonder. I've come so that you can be reverent towards this. Because if you practice reverence and wonder, you will understand reality. The World Iron One does not come, the World Iron One does not create the illusions of the world. The World Honored One doesn't create killing and stealing and lying.

[67:44]

The World Honored One comes to demonstrate not killing and not stealing. He creates reality. No, he doesn't create reality. He demonstrates reality. But he demonstrates reality to people who see delusion, who are deluded. So he demonstrates it in the realm of illusion. And in the realm of illusion he says, pay attention to these illusions and practice not killing. Pay attention to hate and practice not hate. Pay attention to cruelty and be kind. He comes and offers these illusions to help people. Please come up. Please come. Please sit here.

[68:59]

Please sit there. So, paying attention and wondering. Can you hear her? Louder, Yuki. Paying attention and wondering. Could you hear that? Yes. Paying attention and wondering. Yes. Also, create suffering. Does wondering create suffering? Does wondering create suffering? like pay attention, the creative pay attention to everything sounds like creates suffering. If somebody is in front of me and I pay attention to them and with my attention their suffering arises together with my attention, then my attention supports their suffering. Everybody that's suffering, I'm responsible for. I say. Anybody in this universe that's suffering, I'm responsible for.

[70:06]

And I say, each of you are also responsible for all suffering. I say that. Together we are responsible for all suffering. If you pay attention to somebody, what you're feeling yourself, if you pay attention and they're suffering, you're responsible for suffering. If you don't pay attention and people are suffering, you're responsible for suffering. You're responsible for this world whether you pay attention or not. It's just that if you don't pay attention, you not only will be responsible for suffering, you not only will be contributing to suffering, but you will be living the life of continual, endless suffering. Whereas if you pay attention, although people are still suffering and you're still responsible, liberating beings from suffering and bringing them peace and ease and fearlessness and compassion and wisdom.

[71:09]

But in both cases, the Buddhas don't create suffering, but they contribute to it. They're not the creator. But they're responsible. Buddhists are responsible for the suffering of the world. And the suffering of the world is responsible for Buddhists. There wouldn't be Buddhists without the suffering of the world. That's what I say. And I wonder about what I just said. I hope you do too. I don't know if you heard any of that. I don't know if you heard any of what I just said, did you? I did. But... If... Without... If I don't realize...

[72:23]

Well, I don't realize, like, all the way I do practice, it's just a continuous process. I didn't quite follow what you said. If I don't realize... If I don't realize, like, the process we are doing, What I'm doing creates just suffering sometimes, I feel like. You feel like there's something about the way you're living that's contributing to suffering? Or suffering to myself. Yeah, that's normal. Most people are living in such a way that they're contributing to their own suffering. Yeah, but to pay attention... Makes more suffering? Yeah, it feels like, wow, what I did, and wow, what I said, and, you know, actually it's contributing something good to pay attention just makes more life difficult.

[73:41]

It seems that way to you? Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes, well, yeah, sometimes, but all time? Or is there sometimes? Sometimes very intensely. Sometimes very intensely you feel like if you pay attention to yourself, it seems to intensify your suffering? Yeah. Yeah, that's possible. It's possible. Sometimes when you're sick, if you pay attention to the sickness and then you take medicine for it, sometimes you feel more intensely the suffering. If you break your leg sometimes, sometimes in the process of setting the leg back in position, it hurts more than if you leave it alone. When this femur got broken, they wanted to x-ray it, and they said, can we move here if you want to straighten your leg? I really, I just...

[74:43]

I really can't let you do that. I knew from previous experience a few moments before that moving this leg was just like not going to be a good thing. So they didn't move it and they took the x-ray without moving my leg, which I'm really glad that they did. Do it that way. Then later they gave me some medication. and then I stopped arguing. They gave me something that knocked me out and then when I was knocked out they could straighten my leg and put it in traction prior to the operation. Sometimes in order to heal an illness it requires sometimes the intention seems to make it more painful. even though it's part of the healing process. So that can happen.

[75:49]

It can go that way. That paying attention seems to intensify the suffering. But there's other possible stories that we pay attention to it, and we don't just pay attention to it, we tense up about it. So sometimes when you pay attention to something, you tense up more than when you don't pay attention to it. Before you notice it, you're not tense. But when you see the problem and then you tense up, it can make it worse. But it's not the attention. But in many cases, mostly I don't see the attention. I say the response to becoming aware leads to tension and clinging, being intensified, and that makes it more painful. That's usually what I see. But it's also possible that just attention to it would make it more... Like people are vulnerable all day long and they'd rather not notice it. If we're vulnerable, if we haven't been paying attention to it, we feel kind of uneasy. But if we walk around saying, I can't be hurt, I'm invulnerable, you feel kind of like, yeah, you know.

[76:51]

And some people, if they can't do that, what they do is they take drugs, and then they feel invulnerable. Like that song, I have a six-pack of beer, and I'm ten feet tall and bulletproof. So people like to feel, people like to feel so powerful that nothing will hurt them, you know. So if you open up and you open up to your vulnerability and you haven't noticed it for a while, it's kind of like a shock. I'm glad it's a shock that leads to enlightenment. And enlightenment, opening up to enlightenment means to vulnerability, means opening up to pain. And if you've been successfully distracting yourself from pain and you move back and start looking at it, it's sometimes and then all kinds of things like tensing up and

[77:56]

Yeah, it can be really difficult in our life, but it's the path, it's the topic, it's the curriculum of Buddhahood, is to face our own pain and others' pain, starting with ourself. But it's not easy. It's just totally recommended by the Buddhas. And they're trying to teach us how to pay attention to our pain in a loving way. But it doesn't mean that you pay attention to it and then it's not uncomfortable. You pay attention to discomfort. Learn how to pay attention to discomfort in a loving way. and then you stop dwelling in the discomfort, and then you start to understand the discomfort, and then you can help others, and you become free, and you can help others go in the same process. And this is the great joy of the bodhisattvas, to actually be very happy living in the world of suffering, very happy living in the world of suffering, and feeling it, and being responsible for it,

[79:12]

but also practicing the way of freedom in the midst of it. Compassion. Compassion. Pay attention to the suffering and love it. If we love it, we don't dwell in it and we're free of it. You're welcome. Yes, Brendan. Come up here, please, Brendan. In Yuki's question just now, you said that opening up to our vulnerability can be a moment of enlightenment. Yeah, and also a shock. And a shock. Which we might initially, we open to it, And then after we open to it and feel the shock, we sometimes say, no thanks, I don't want it.

[80:22]

But then sometimes say, okay, all right, okay, fine. My question is about forming attachments. Yes. Sometimes I feel like... Forming attachments brings me closer to opening to vulnerability. And I wonder if forming attachments, which are an illusion, are actually part of the path to enlightenment. They are, that's right. Babies form attachments, and because they form attachments, they open to vulnerability. Babies are vulnerable. Vulnerability, vulnerable means able... able to be hurt babies can be hurt they're vulnerable from birth right so then they form attachment to something and then they can then they have because they're attached they can open to their vulnerability without being able to attach something they just close down they're still vulnerable but they just withdraw so we do have to usually attach and after a while you leave your mom and you hold on to your teacher's hand

[81:33]

and you walk through the valley of the shadow of death, and you don't fear evil. Because... With me. But you're feeling, but you're open to... You see, there's a lot of evil here. A lot of evil. I'm vulnerable to the evil, but you're with me, so I won't be afraid of it. Right. Let's face it. Let's be fearless here with all this evil. Yeah, so a little attachment is okay. Open to... our own destruction, which is happening all the time. Every moment we're destroyed, but not entirely, just sort of. When we get a new person, every moment we're a new person, and by the laws of biology, an older new person. I wonder, fearlessness has come up a couple times, and I wonder what some of the uses for fearlessness are.

[82:43]

Some of the uses? Some of the uses? The uses of fearlessness. Well, one of the uses of fearlessness is to teach other people how to be fearless. And one of the benefits of fearlessness is you can be happy in the middle of fear. happy in the middle of fear. Fear is a way, fearlessness is a loving way, fear is being in love, fearlessness is being in love with fear. full-scale fearlessness, you love fear. And now you love fear, but part of the reason why you love it is because you know there are a lot of people who don't know how, and you love them too. Because you're fearless, you love your fear of loving other people. You're afraid to love them because you know. But you love that fear, so that allows you to love them. So you get to love everybody, plus you get to love the fear, and plus you get to love everybody else's fear, and you get to love

[83:50]

teaching them how to love fear and teaching them how to be fearless and teaching them how to teach other people to love fear. Not like it. No, not like it. That would be sick. But also, also not to dislike it. Disliking fear is sick. It's sick. It's sicky, sick, sick. And it leads to other things, other things like intoxication and lying and stealing and all that stuff, which then leads us even more to like, not love, to dislike fear. And then it gets bigger and bigger, and the more we like it, the more sicker we get. But also, if you like it, that's really sick, too. But loving it, loving it is... What are you doing over there?

[84:56]

This is the thinking bus. Yeah, right. When I was in graduate school, I once saw my advisor at McDonald's. You know, he's a real tall guy with a huge head, really smart, leaning over his hamburger like the thinker, like Rodin's thinker. And I thought, I don't want to be his disciple. The form, I didn't like the form. He's a great guy, so smart, but I didn't like the form. So much smarter than me. But the form, yeah. And then I found out. that the Rodin's, when I went to Paris one time, I went to the Rodin Museum and they had the thinker just sitting out, well during the daytime, they have it sitting outside the museum. And I found out that that statue was going to be part of a bigger piece, bigger sculptural piece, and the piece is going to be hell.

[85:59]

And that thinker is sitting outside hell. This is the posture about, you know, going into hell. Did you put it outside the museum instead? No, that was part of the setup, part of the piece. It would be outside the gates of hell. Outside the museum now? No, it's outside the door. It's supposed to be outside the door. It's supposed to be at the doors of hell. That's where it was. It was the doors of hell. Inside is hell. But they didn't finish the other pieces. But I love you when you're in hell. I don't like that you're in hell. You don't have to like the form. I love it. You love it. Yeah, I love it. That's my vow. I may slip into it. I wish he'd sit up straight. I don't like it when he bends over like that. Yeah, you said that to me. Yeah, but I really, you know, I was more like, I thought it was wonderful, that posture. I thought it was really wonderful what you're doing there.

[87:01]

Love fear. Please. Bodhisattva's vow to love fear. In order to teach people how to relax with it and play with it. In other words, love it. This includes relaxation and play. Not tensing up. But if you tense up, love the tensing. So fearlessness is loving fear and relaxation is loving tension. I'm totally tense, but I love it. I'm totally relaxed. I'm tense all night, but I know some people would not think that's funny. So I give it away. Let's go have some wonderful time now, okay? May God bless you. May God bless you.

[88:03]

@Transcribed_v005
@Text_v005
@Score_86.39