Thank you for reciting this vow of an ancient teacher. So rephrasing it slightly, it says that we vowed to hear the true Dharma. We vow to renounce worldly affairs and maintain the Buddha Dharma. We vow in doing so that the great earth and all living beings will attain the Buddha way. We vow to maintain the Dharma so that all beings will attain the Buddha way. And usually at the Dharma talks and classes, we recite the four, what are called the four universal vows of bodhisattvas.

[01:12]

And the first one is, sentient beings are numberless, I vow to save them. Or for a while we said, I vow to be saved with them or saved together with them. Coming to this, I don't know if you thought, oh, I'm going to go to Green Gulch for three weeks in order to save all sentient beings. But there is this, and I think Zen is not, in a lot of people's mind, they only say, oh, Zen, that's about saving all sentient beings. That's what Zen's about. But there is this recurrent expression, verbal expression, in many Zen temples for quite a long time.

[02:16]

People are saying in various ways, we, I, vow to save all beings. So, it looks, it appears in a way, it seems like Zen is into or committed to, is being committed to, and Zen is committed to, saving all sentient beings. It's a practice of salvation. The root of the word salvation and the word is safe. The Latin root is safe. And also there's another nice word which you can read in Buddhist scholarship these days, soteriology, a teaching about salvation, teachings about salvation.

[03:23]

And again, I think quite a few people go to Zen centers, are attracted to Zen centers for various reasons like organic vegetables, lovely gardens, good-looking bald people, commitment to ecological health, beautiful black cushions nicely arranged in friendly people, and many beautiful teachings, but they don't think, oh, I'm going to Zen Center to save all sentient beings. Or they might even say, Zen isn't into salvation, it's a tradition. I'm not saying it is. I'm just saying it comes up a lot. And a lot of people who actually recite, I vow to save all sentient beings, they hardly notice they said it.

[04:34]

I begin by asking you, are you committed to the salvation of all beings? So that's something there. And also I mentioned that sometimes we say bodhisattvas practice in groups, big groups, very big groups, and they practice with slogans, like phenomena are dependent co-arisings. And enlightenment is helping others. And enlightenment is caring for karmic consciousness.

[05:36]

And enlightenment is caring for delusion. Caring for karmic consciousness and understanding it greatly, his Buddhas. A bodhisattva's care for karmic consciousness, which is the same as bodhisattva's care for living beings. Does that make sense to you, that bodhisattvas care for living beings? They vow to save them all by caring for them. And the way they care for them is they care for their karmic consciousness. And the way they care for their karmic consciousness is they don't go in and fix it. They don't go in and adjust your karmic consciousness. They go into your karmic, they bring their karmic consciousness to you and they show you how they study their karmic consciousness and then

[06:49]

by watching them study their karmic consciousness, you start studying your karmic consciousness. And when you start studying your karmic consciousness and you continue and study it thoroughly, then you are saved and the bodhisattva has saved you by transmitting the study of karmic consciousness to you. And they transmit it by practicing it themselves. Where's Luca? He was asked to spend another day in isolation, so Luca's fever would be free for two full days before returning to this. Luca, Luca, I brought you a slogan. You won't hear this, right? I know, that's why I'm saying it. Luca, this is your... Does anybody go near Luca? Yeah. Norbert, would you give this to Luca?

[07:58]

He wanted a slogan. This is a slogan for six bodhisattvas. Would you read it, Norbert? Great enlightenment about delusion is Buddhist. He wanted that slogan to soothe him in his illness. So that's a slogan from two sick bodhisattvas. What? What? Could you also say, is Buddha, or is it Buddha? I think, actually I think, I would guess, I can check, if you remind me, it probably says, it probably says all Buddhas. Could we hear it again? The translation that Luca wanted me to write out for him was, great enlightenment about delusion is Buddha's. And Linda says, could it be Buddha? It could be, yes.

[08:59]

I think the translation, it probably says all Buddha's, but I'll check. I think it's, you know, the way you make a plural out of a Chinese character is you don't just make a mark on it, you say all or several or something. So I think it probably says all Buddha's. The trend in Zendo is those who have great enlightenment of delusion are Buddhas. I like this second one more. Not to make Buddhas something in addition, like you've got Buddha and Buddhas. Realization of delusion is Buddhas. I prefer that slogan. Someone said to me that... I'm not sure if she might have said... ...to delusion.

[10:03]

But that isn't what she said. No, she said, I have come in this intensive to accept that I'm deluded. Something like that. Or accept... how deluded I am. And it's delightful. I feel so delighted that I accept that I'm deluded. I think it really is delightful to accept it. And resisting it is one of the activities of delusion, is to resist accepting that we are deluded. Common consciousnesses have better things to do than accept That is deluded. We've got more important things to do here. This is a serious situation. We don't have time to stop and notice that we're deluded.

[11:06]

We might not be able to do our great works then. It's true, you might not be able to. But you might be able to. You might be able to make for the sangha and still remember while you're making it that you're an ordinary, deluded bodhisattva. But there's a chance that you won't be able to make lunch if you admit it. Like, you might be paralyzed if you admit, accept that you're deluded. How could I make lunch if I'm deluded? Well, watch while you're doing it. So, I was, last year I kind of, I vowed to concentrate on studying cause and effect, karmic causation for the year.

[12:08]

And I tried to do that for a year and people joined me. And so I'm, this year, I was going to say this is the year of, focusing on delusion, which is the same thing, but bringing on another aspect is this is a year of taking care of delusion. Enlightenment is taking care of delusion. Also, this is a year of humility. a year of being a sick, deluded bodhisattva who's taken care of being a sick, deluded bodhisattva. Delightfully, hopefully. Doing Buddha's work of taking care of delusion. And saying it again, enlightenment, bodhisattvas, buddhas, care intimately for all sentient beings.

[13:17]

So, you probably hear that sentient beings care intimately for all... Did I say sentient beings? It's familiar to you to hear that bodhisattvas intimately care for all sentient beings. That's familiar, right? Isn't it? And buddhas too? But then I add that enlightenment cares. Enlightenment cares. That's another slogan. Enlightenment cares. Enlightenment isn't just like, oh-hoo-hoo. No, it also cares. Oh-hoo-hoo, there's a lot of people to care for. And only you can care for them together with everybody else. So enlightenment, Buddhas, bodhisattvas intimately care for the consciousnesses, care for all delusions, care for all sentient beings.

[14:26]

And they care for them in hopes that they will soon be saved from all suffering. So yesterday, I'm kind of impressed. I can hardly believe, but I did some repeated calculations, and I came up with that we only had two classes so far. To me, it's anyway. Only two. So this is the third class. The first class, when you raise your hand, I invite you to come up. Second class, I didn't do that much.

[15:34]

And one person I invited, but she didn't want to come. So, here we are again, and I invite you to come up, Sonia. But you can stay there if you want to. But if you stay there, please stand up. I just wondered if there was another translation for the word. In our translation, as a matter of fact, there is. Liberate. So, and we had this thing you just chanted, it used to say save, but save also means accept and hold on to, like save up your money rather than liberate your money. So, we said, he said, save the body which is the fruit of many lives, and people said, what does that mean? And when we say liberate, say, oh. So among the three meanings of save there, like, blah, blah, blah, save the body, in other words, accept for the body, under the body, which is the fruit, and liberate.

[16:43]

So save, the meaning we mean there is liberate, not hold on to or accept. But I think also I think that people have less religious connotations associated with liberation and salvation. And then people have negative connotations or associations with... Actually, some people just have negative connotation of religion and negative associations. So liberate... I vow to liberate all sentient beings and make them safe on the Buddha way. So saith the Bodhisattva. Yes, please stand. What does it mean to liberate the body? What does it mean to liberate it?

[17:45]

It means to authentically express it. It means to authentically breathe. It means to authentically sit, walk, stand, swallow, sweat, shiver. Would it accept the body? Accepting is necessary, yeah. But some people might feel like accept and they wouldn't understand that accept means to express. There's two different accepts in relation to save. There's two different accepts? The one that's like save is E-X-C-E-P-T. Are you talking about E-X? No, she meant A-A. Yeah. Accept. Yeah. I think part of an authentic body is accepting it, but also part of it is to express it and to exert it.

[19:07]

A body actually is an exerted phenomenon, so join the exertion. To liberate, to save sentient beings sounds to me like it would not include plants and minerals, the earth. If you save all the sentient beings that you think are sentient beings, that will include everything else. But I actually, my karmic consciousness does not know that iron has karmic consciousness. So I don't find iron ignoring its karmic consciousness.

[20:11]

If you do, then you have a... You know, Doksang with the iron. With iron or with potassium. Well, I wasn't thinking of iron considering it's from consciousness, but I was thinking of mountaintops being ripped off for coal. Yeah, so those kinds of things. Yeah. Those kinds of things would be affected by working with beings that have karmic consciousness. Their karmic consciousness, their karma changes. The theory is they have the most harmonious relationship with the entire universe. Did I understand you to say accept the body and then you said join the body?

[21:26]

I think you read my mind. So who or what joins the body? Enjoy. Enjoy or join, either way. The karmic consciousness... I'd like to say that I'm feeling, sitting here, that the exchanges are far more dynamic when people come all the way up next to you. I would like to request people, if they are up for it, to try to do that for us. That's how I feel. Thank you. Makes better recordings, too. I wasn't speaking on behalf of the recording. And also, you don't have to wait for the other person to leave before you start coming up.

[22:32]

I've heard that it's impossible to have delusion without enlightenment and enlightenment without delusion. You heard that? Yes. Who said it? You did. Oh. Well, I take it back. I think impossible is a little hard. heavy-handed. I would just say that enlightenment is intimate with delusion and delusion is intimate with enlightenment. Maybe there's some possibility that they could be separate from each other, but I can't imagine it. okay good i think i'm spam um so would would you therefore would it therefore be um would uh

[24:03]

It would seem to me slightly incongruous with that to say that enlightenment saves delusion, but maybe less so that enlightenment liberates delusion. Enlightenment as practice liberates delusions. So that's why I say enlightenment is a practice of caring for delusion liberates it. But that kind of practice is enlightenment. So practice enlightenment liberates. It isn't just delight. It's a practice. It's a practice that liberates karmic consciousness. And that practice is compassion and wisdom regarding this thing, this thing called karmic consciousness, or this thing called sentient being, called karmic consciousnesses.

[25:22]

Thank you very much. You're welcome. You can just come, actually. You don't have to raise your hands. You can just come. Could you hear that, Melissa? Could you hear that? You can just come if you want. Yes. I would like to ask if I could read something to ask you about. Sure. I've been really struggling for the last couple of months, synchronously, yesterday, about how to be authentic, how to live authentically. But I'm not sure... That's part of it. If I know what authentically is. Yeah, that's part of authenticity. At the same time, be unsure. Be kind of like, I have a question. Yeah, I don't know.

[26:30]

So I've been studying and looking for... some way to say what authenticity is. Maybe not know it. And one thing I found... That may be kind of the kind of... For you, that might be authentic, to say what authenticity is. Let's hear it. I would like to try a couple of definitions. Yeah, go ahead. That I found that seem to kind of resonate a little bit. A natural and spontaneous functioning that intuitively aligns with the wisdom of natural forces and wastes no energy by going against them. What that means is kind of the wisdom of knowing about delusion. So that sounded great. Back up a little bit. Let's read it again. Okay. A natural and spontaneous functioning that intuitively aligns with the wisdom of natural forces and wastes no energy by going against them.

[27:37]

Okay, so that could include that you're wasting energy going against them. Yeah, I guess so, because that's part of how it is. Yeah. So you're wasting energy going against them, and there's no wasting of energy going against them. Yeah. It's basically being with how it is. Yeah. And how it is sometimes is that it also appears some way that it isn't. So we sometimes feel like we think we can get a hold of this process which you just described, But the process allows us, this process of nature allows us to be deluded. That's part of the natural process. It allows us to imagine we can get a hold of what is ungraspable and act in accord with that delusion.

[28:39]

What you're saying, what you wrote with that definition works, except it has to include its opposite. Well, natural has to include both. The word natural has to be interpreted as not one thing. Okay. Right? Or one thing that includes everything. But just not going against it, I think we... we deluded beings do go against what you just said. And so then how can we not go against our going against? And that's the compassion which comes to our going against reality. compassion that comes to a person who is acting like they can get a hold of phenomena as substantial as this.

[29:42]

We think that, we are caught by that, we act like that, and how do we take care of that the way you just described? While the opposite of what you described, the inauthentic, so how can we be authentically deluded How can we accept and express our delusion in a way that finally we come into accord with it and therefore we're not going against it? There's this ambiguity or ambivalence going on in the situation. And then there was another definition which might be an abbreviation. Okay. Well, it could even be a slogan, but... Okay. ...without clinging. Mm-hmm.

[30:43]

So if you function without clinging to one way or another way, but still in the middle of that function, still and functioning. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Without grabbing onto either side. Yeah, mm-hmm. I still don't know what that functioning means, but I can work on it. How do I take the next step? Just watch. Authentically. Yeah, right. Can I just stay with you? I had a question. If you don't stand up, your voice will carry better to the group if you stand up.

[31:44]

Do you want to sit down in this chair? No, no. Hold on. Okay. I've been wondering about the phrase, interacting brings involvement in relationship to taking care. Let's see. I think that what that's referring to is this other thing we talked about in the first class, is that delusion doesn't reach enlightenment, and enlightenment doesn't really reach delusion. They don't really reach it. They're intimate, they're non-dual, but they don't get into each other. They don't compromise each other.

[32:44]

They both have their function. And so they're intimate, and the way they interact is such that they influence each other, they promote each other, but they don't really like getting involved. That would be getting involved. I think that's what's referred to in this particular phrase. So we're committed to beings to be intimate with them, but not sort of like lean into them. Most of the time, we're trying to overcome leaning away from them. Then we come to meet them and be close to them, but then how do we not like get, what's it called, what's the word? Entangled? Entangled, and there's no other words. To get too stirred. to stay in some sense in our common consciousness of them, to realize we have a superficial version of them, and to not go deeper into our superficial version to get closer to them.

[33:54]

Does that make sense? We're not going to get closer to them, we're going to get deeper into our story about them. we're going to get closer to them by recognizing and accepting that we have a story about them and they're not our story. That keeps us involved and close without sort of leaning into or getting involved in an unproductive way. So interaction would be the leaning? Except that enlightenment and delusion do interact, but they don't really get involved with each other. They illuminate each other. Delusion actually increases enlightenment. And enlightenment can illuminate. Delusion can't reach the enlightenment. Like it says, it's not reached by the deluded mind. But enlightenment doesn't really take away delusion. Now, everybody knows that delusion is rooted in karmic consciousness, and that obscured vision is rooted in karmic consciousness, but also enlightenment is rooted in karmic consciousness.

[35:17]

There's a dynamic relationship and an interplay, but they're not... They don't erode each other. Enlightenment is not the elimination of delusion. It is what makes delusion authentically alive. And being authentically alive realizes enlightenment authentically. Enlightenment doesn't come in and gobble up delusion. which I think there's some ways that the tradition speaks that makes you think enlightenment's going to come in and gobble up delusion. We've even said delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. So it's more like, I would say the end them is more like I vow to come to the end of them in the sense of I vow to know them thoroughly. I vow to have a thorough relationship with them, so there's no more... so it's totally intimate.

[36:27]

Come to the end of them also means come to the end of the duality of them, that there's something other than me. Is that like the bird and the fish? The bird and the fish, yeah. So, you know, humans swim in delusion. are flying in delusion. And if they leave delusion, they die at once. So if I just say one more brief thing and we can say more, I can talk about it more later, and I will of course, but I think the early teachings of the Buddha were not clearly and strongly expressing the teaching of non-duality. It seems like when the Buddha was first teaching in this world, probably his judgment was that if he taught non-duality, people would have a hard time understanding the precepts.

[37:41]

And he wanted to make sure that they really got the message that the practice of non-duality is based on the precepts. The precepts is where we test our understanding of insubstantiality because we should be able to practice ethical discipline together with the understanding that things are insubstantial. But if you teach insubstantiality and non-duality, then people say, well, enlightenment or delusion are the same, so I'll just be deluded. or, you know, good and bad or non-dual sentient beings and Buddhas are also I'm a Buddha and whatever I do is fine. So I think he wanted to make clear, no, I want you to see if you can practice ethics and then based on that teach the non-self thing and non-self finally leading to no difference between sentient beings and Buddhas. I mean, no separation.

[38:44]

Yes. This is more on this wonderful intimacy, enlightenment and delusion in karmic consciousness. And I can sort of understand that enlightenment can serve or help or take care for delusion. I'm really curious. I can't quite understand the role of delusion in serving enlightenment. I'm assuming that it works from that side as well or not.

[39:51]

That's right. But in what way? How does delusion serve enlightenment? Delusion is the lifeblood of enlightenment. Yes, but how is it the lifeblood? Oh, how is it the lifeblood? How does it work? Well, the way it's the lifeblood is called compassion. So you have a deluded being, and then the deluded being becomes the blood of the Buddha, and then when the blood of the Buddha is flowing, the Buddha is compassionate towards the sentient being. That's how the sentient being is possible for the Buddha to be a Buddha in that way. It activates. It activates and it manifests the Buddha in that relationship.

[40:52]

in both directions. So let yourself be the lightblood of the Buddha. And also, the way you put it also was that other way of saying enlightenment can help deluded beings, or enlightenment can help karmic consciousness, but I was also saying enlightenment is the helping of karmic consciousness. So you can say enlightenment is helping, but when you say it that way, you can still think that enlightenment is something other than the helping. Like there's this enlightenment thing that's helping living beings. But another way to hear the sentence is helping sentient beings is what enlightenment is. It's not something in addition to helping beings. And you're saying, yes, but don't the sentient beings help the enlightenment? Yeah.

[41:58]

beings are the lifeblood. Karmic consciousness is the life force of reality. So I was wondering, you asked what you came here for, if you came here to save all beings. I mean, I guess there are a few different beliefs you can have about that, like no or yes or I don't know. So I think I'm leaning towards no and I don't know, a mixture. Okay. But I was wondering if I would feel yes And if I compare some of the beliefs, yes, I'm here to save all beings, to someone who says no, is both of their beliefs illusion or delusion?

[43:08]

Got two different karmic consciousnesses there. Yeah. And if both of them are delusion, like if both of the beliefs are delusion, is one of them a better delusion? I would say, from the point of view of delusion, one might be better than the other. Yeah. And they both might have delusions about such things. But I would say that I wouldn't say that, aside from karmic consciousness, that one is better. However, one might be recommended as part of the process. One might be more necessary, although not better. And you sort of need the one of, I'm here to save all sentient beings. You need that at some point in the process. There's already been quite a bit of the one that's not here to save all sentient beings. Have you noticed that one? That one has plenty of play. So we need the other one too. But the other one's not better than the other.

[44:10]

Because the saving all sentient beings is meaningless aside from the one that doesn't want to save all sentient beings. The object of the saving all sentient beings is that they don't want to save sentient beings or want to save just a few. So those are the lifeblood of the realization of the saving sentient beings. They're not really better than each other, but you do need both. So if you've got one, you need the other one, whichever way. If you've only got one, If you've only got save all sentient beings, you need some I don't want to save any sentient beings around, too. But people do. They come and they say, I must confess I don't want to save all sentient beings. I say, oh, good. Been waiting for you. And if you've got, hey, I don't want to save sentient beings, then go get one save all sentient beings. You need both. You need sentient beings and Buddhists together.

[45:12]

But Buddhists aren't better than sentient beings. Sentient beings might think so, right? Or some sentient beings might think Buddhists are less good than sentient beings. But Buddhists don't think that they're better or that sentient beings are better. They don't think that, unless somebody would like them to think that, and then they might do it, if it helps. Buddhists are flexible. So it sounds like it's a mission of getting the other one. Pardon? You said, like, if you have this one, if you have the one that says no, try to get it. And if you got the other one, get the other one. The mission is intimacy between these two karmic consciousnesses. Okay.

[46:14]

Okay, I don't know how the practice is getting between them. Well, if you don't want to save all sentient beings, then start relating to something that does want to save all sentient beings. Or … Look further. Yeah, or just ask some people here that have that vow and talk to them. Have a relationship with the people here who do want to save all sentient beings, who have that kind of consciousness. Or you can relate to the invisible Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who represent that agenda, that commitment. And also it just might arise in you sometime. Well, it does sometimes. Yeah, yeah. So then when it does, then of course, look for its partner.

[47:19]

Welcome its partner. And you can go find some people here that don't want to save all sentient beings and take care of them. Thank you. You're welcome. When I came to Zen Center, I did not have the karmic consciousness of I'm coming to save all sentient beings. But when I leave Zen Center... Melissa, would you come up, please, with Jeff? Melissa, please come. So, back to iron. Yes. I was thinking about the bodies of systems, the interdependency of this and karmic consciousness and saving all sentient beings and being safe and what's happening in the world in relationship to all of that, and wanted to ask if you could talk further about the karmic consciousness of that because of the interdependency of these bodies of systems.

[48:29]

Oh, like seeing the environment as a karmic consciousness? Or the systems like that relationship to iron and how we need iron in our bodies and how iron is the center of the planet and how it all works together in harmony and the disharmony that's happening. So I guess speaking about this karmic consciousness in relationship to that, Because I thought I heard something. So you've already started to talk about it, that karmic consciousness creates worlds for the beings who have karmic consciousness. So like you and I and the rest of the people here, we live in a world that has some similarity because our karmic consciousness is somewhat similar.

[49:30]

And animals that have other kinds of karmic consciousness, they live in us, but they also have a different version of our world because their karma is different. So the world we're living in and trying to take care of and trying to be supported by, our version of it is the result of our karmic consciousness. And our way of relating to it is in terms of how we see it, but how we see it is our karmic consciousness. So the theory is that if we take care of karmic consciousness, not only will our world in terms of our karmic consciousness change, but it will actually change. That was my question about the action of that and why it's not happening faster.

[50:36]

Why it's not happening faster. That's what I think. Yeah, so I think it's happening. Why it's not happening faster, I don't know, but it is happening at the rate it's happening. And so the question is, aside from the rate, what do you think is the best contribution to make to this process? deviating the suffering within the world you're living in. And so what I'm proposing is that the way to alleviate suffering in the world you're living in, the world you see, is to study the thing that creates the world, which is your karmic consciousness. And I feel that people who don't study, my story is people who don't study their karmic consciousness, in the world I see, they seem to be acting in a way that seems very painful or even destructive.

[51:48]

And I find in my world that if they start paying attention to their karmic consciousness, they become more kind and less distressed in my world, and I think it seems to be within theirs. So the world tends to become more peaceful as people watch the consciousness which creates the world. If people don't watch their own consciousness, the world that we create together, consciousness, other people, if other people aren't, still we have to recognize that if their world is troubled, ours is too, because they have similar, kind of similar karma to us. So the more we can make their study of the world flourish, the better will our world that we create together be. And our world includes physical phenomena like trees and mountains and water.

[52:58]

And I think that's one of the virtues of Green Gulch is that it has actually land that people can take care of in addition to cement and asphalt. It's in the city center. It's really nice. They take care of the ground around the city center and they take care of the park across the street. And the Green Gulch has further ways that we can actually be intimate with physical reality. And I think that really encourages a lot of people to come and participate in that. And then we also need to be aware that we're deluded here, that we're deluded beings taking care of the land. Otherwise, our world will deteriorate. We'll become arrogant instead of humble, and we'll be less effective in caring for the land. Thank you.

[54:05]

So during my study period, I've been reading this book by an esteemed author. And he keeps talking about saying what we need to do is change our perceptual lens so that we are seeing things as they are. But I want to say, no, that's not helpful to say it that way. as of this slogan, that wisdom is not a pair of glasses. So that I'm wanting to say to that author that changing our perceptual lens is still too dualistic. I sympathize with that concern that you have. if you study your karmic consciousness, you're studying how, you're including that your perceptual lens is, well, yeah, we call it, I'll feel a case about calling it perceptual lens that are diluted.

[55:22]

And the more you're clear about how your perceptual, the more you accept how your perceptions are diluted, the more intimate you get with clarity. So clarity grows along with admitting cloudiness. So we have this distorted perceptual lens and that's just fine. We don't want to substitute a new lens. Well, you may not want to, but a new lens will probably come. Depending on how you study your karmic consciousness, depending on how you are aware of your levels of delusion, the more you're aware of it, it goes a certain way. The less you're aware of it, it goes another way. Your perceptions will change if you study yourself. And they will change positively, I'm suggesting, if you study your karmic consciousness.

[56:29]

But it's not that we eliminate cloudiness. It's rather that enlightenment grows on cloudiness. So you don't have to clear up your vision. You need to take better care of your vision. And the enlightenment, which is caring for your vision, gets clearer and clearer. There's no clear consciousness that reaches enlightenment. is not something you recognize, it's a practice. So are... But in the Buddhist tradition there's a little confusion sometimes between a kind of enlightenment as recognition and enlightenment as practice. So our cloudy lens is illuminated by enlightenment. Yeah. But even though your cloudy lens are more and more clarified and illuminated, it's still karmic consciousness, and we don't get rid of it.

[57:32]

But the karmic consciousness then, and this is kind of important, the karmic consciousness... is what can show other people how to practice enlightenment. So if you got karmic consciousness all cleared up and you showed it to people, they would say, well that's fine for you because you're a Martian. Of course you're not suffering. You can leave. But what's it got to do with me? So to come into karmic consciousness... and live there, being illuminated by enlightenment is what helps other people come into karmic consciousness, become intimate with it, and receive it. But that doesn't mean your perceptions don't get clearer. It doesn't mean they don't change. It doesn't mean you don't start to see, oh, that's a delusion and that's not, or that's incorrect and that's correct.

[58:35]

This is incorrect. This is a perception, which is delusion. Incorrect thing, and this is a correct thing. You can still get better at that. But it's very subtle. So what we're proposing now is that we want to take care of delusion so that it can be illuminated. And part of taking care of it is working with its equipment. But not by making its equipment perfect, but by showing people the way to work with it that is enlightenment in that realm. So clarity within delusion? No. Clarity is the way of relating to unclarity. Because otherwise you could keep trying to undermine the unclarity and make the delusion better and better. Well, it might get better and better, but still, that's not the plan.

[59:40]

How do you take care of it? How do you practice with it? How do you practice with it when it's really super terrible? I don't know, super terrible, just terrible. How can you love it when it's terrible? How can you be patient with it when it's terrible? How can you understand it when it's essential, when it's terrible? And then we don't have to get rid of it. We can show a life of liberation with it still there. So as you talk about enlightenment and delusion, and then of Buddhas and sentient beings, I start to think about symbiosis, that there's a symbiotic relationship.

[60:42]

Is that? Right. That's correct. Yeah. So if that's correct, then I wonder if... It seems like enlightenment would not exist without delusion, and delusion would not exist without delusion. It seems... There would be no need for Buddhas if they weren't sentient beings. There would just be reality. That'd be it. No Buddhas. Buddhas are the part of reality that address those who have drifted away from it. And life is this wonderful thing which has managed to dream up unreality. And the universe has supported that and is really happy about it in certain ways. But the people who are doing this great service for the universe are suffering as a result of this false imagination, which is a great production of the universe, life. So the universe has allowed life here, and life can do this amazing thing

[61:43]

of dreaming of things which don't exist, which is... The universe, I think, just loves this. But it hurts if you believe it once you dream it up. And it hurts if you forget that you're... If you look at your dream and forget that you dreamt it, it's painful. So can we perform the service of dreaming for the universe and remember the dreaming process while it's going on? Buddhas come to help us wake up to that. Are Buddhas inside or outside? Something other. Inside and outside is a dream. Would they exist without the dream? No. They love the dream. They love the dream. They love inside. They love the dream of inside the dream. They love the dream. They love all sentient beings who dream of various kinds of qualities and theories about dreams.

[62:47]

They love all of them. And they love them in the way of helping them become knowledgeable about their dream process. They are studying in order to help the dreamers enter the Buddha way of studying dreaming. So what would happen to the Buddhas if everyone were enlightened? If there were no us, Buddhas would not have any blood anymore. They wouldn't be alive anymore. They come alive by sentient beings. They're inseparable. sentient beings and they come alive by sentient beings. That's what they live on. That's the reason they exist. raison d'etre.

[63:49]

And sentient beings, they don't think that they're here to help to make Buddhas happen. But the universe made them that way. So there they are, and they're precipitating Buddhas all over the place. So please. Good for us. Yeah, good for us. Good for the universe. Good for the universe. And sentient beings made Buddhas. But that's the difference between Buddhism and some other whatever you want to call them. Buddhas do not make the universe. Buddhas are the helping force of the universe. The universe has made living beings. Living beings need Buddhas, Buddhas. The universe says, okay, let's have Buddhas. And the Buddhas come and help the living beings deal with this situation called life in a universe.

[64:52]

And life that includes dreaming that we're We're walking around these little worlds. That's part of the deal of sentient beings. They say live in worlds that are created by their sentient being. Not by the Buddhas. A lot to wrap. It's fine to wrap. Yeah, and it's also, you don't have to wrap your mind about it. You can just let it eat your mind up. I have another slogan I just want to share with you, and that is... that... Karma is sentient beings' main squeeze.

[65:58]

Karma consciousness is sentient beings' main squeeze in the sense that we're always working with it. We're always squeezing it, but also it's always squeezing us. I'd like that. We squeeze it. Yes. I just have to feel what it's like to be squeezed for a moment. A clarification about the notion of world and worlds as opposed to universe, because you said several times that karmic consciousness creates the world. and the world can be changed, and I take it that it can be changed by, it seems like you mean phenomenal world. It's phenomenal, but the phenomenal world that we experience is a mind-created phenomenal world.

[67:11]

So then my question is, I don't know if it's a question or a comment, or something for you to comment on, is when Melissa talked about the environment before, and, you know, then it seems like she had a common world in mind, you know, a common world, you do things to it, and it changes as a result. Whereas in another context, in the context of It tends to be talked about my world and your world, my consciousness, grace, my world, mainly through perception, not so much through action, perhaps. So the issue is really how this, you know, private... phenomenal world that is mine, that is created by my consciousness. For example, I may wake up in a bad mood some day and everyone comes across as ugly, and then the next day everyone comes across as beautiful.

[68:14]

And the people, the day you wake up when it's ugly, the other people may think it's beautiful. But the relationship between these worlds... the worlds become more and more similar as our karma becomes more and more similar. So, for example, the language thing, we do a lot of work on having this language is one of the key karmic activities we have that makes our worlds quite similar. So my world is different from your world, but also I'm in a room that has a wooden ceiling. Are you? In your world? Yes. And it has white walls. So there's quite a bit of similarity between your world and my world. because we have similar karma, especially because of language. Children, before they learn the languages and start practicing them, their worlds are less similar to their parents' world as they start to speak more and more like their parents.

[69:21]

Women's way of speaking and thinking is sometimes different from men's way of speaking and thinking, but maybe similar, it's had a lot of similarity with each other and men with them, with themselves. And so they have sub-worlds that they live in together because they do similar karma. Not understand this pro-football world, because they don't do the karma of watching those games. And some people, you know, or even if you're an American and you go to Europe and you see the Europeans watching soccer, they are in another world because they've done the karma of watching together and checking each other's karma and aligning each other's karma so they live in this... well, very intense world which we sort of watch from the outside like, oh. We kind of see it because we also watch soccer. We also make our mind think of soccer. So, the way we can make our worlds very similar is making our karma similar.

[70:28]

And so part of practice is making our karma similar, but the main thing of practice is for all of us, and we have to have somewhat similar karma, the instruction of taking care of karma. But now that you made the move from the idiosyncratic world to the shared world of culture, there is still a further step. For example, we all also live in a world of climate change, I suppose, probably, even if we know it. But the world of... is in our world. Yeah, but it's not in our world in the same way as soccer is in the world of a soccer fan. I know this is a soccer fan. Climate change is something that scientists supposedly discovered. one might say, that has entered our world as very abstract cognitions. Yes. And, you know, in some people's private worlds, one might relate it truly or falsely to climate change.

[71:35]

Like yesterday was an unseasoned, warm day. Oh, it must be due to climate change. That could be the private world. But it seems like there is a world of science, too. Yes. And the world of minerals. Well, there's a world of science, but when you say the world of science, do you mean the world of scientists? I mean the way... I mean, the part where we talk about our common world... We also think that it has lots of, you know, non-perceptual items in it. Non-perceiving items? No, not... Like Clarence said, it's a theoretical construction, or certain minerals and whatever, you know, they've been supposedly discovered by science. And they, according to scientists and many other people, are part of reality.

[72:38]

But they can never be experienced. Beauty or ugliness or soccer or football can be experienced. Okay. So my question is, how does that relate to karma and consciousness and so on? Because most of us seem to think of it as independent of karma, that aspect of the world. Well, so one question is how does what you're talking about relate to karma? And the other thing you said is most of us think that something is independent of what? Independent of karmic cause. Okay, so I just want to, there's three points here. Last thing was, some of us think that what you're talking about is independent of karmic consciousness. However, a big point of certain people, and some of them are scientists, is that karmic consciousnesses are attributed to this reality of climate change.

[73:45]

Absolutely, but not the discovery of it. Not the discovery of it, no. You're saying that. I've said it. But before we get to not that, they are saying that karmic consciousness has something to do with the world of global climate change. Now, I'm saying, which you're saying they're not saying, and I'm saying that there's a world of scientists who do similar karma, and in their world, There is the creation of climate change. And in that world, that thing of climate change has been created in their world of their karma. And they also share karma with non-scientists, and they have got us to think with them such that our karma is similar enough to theirs so that we can admit to our world now. But now you seem to use the word karma as conceptual system or something.

[74:48]

Conceptual systems are just karmic consciousness. That's all they are. That's all they are. Illusions. I can dig that. And... That consciousness surely includes much more than concepts, right? And... They, say again, karmic, what? Doesn't karmic consciousness include much more than concepts? Yeah. It is based on our entire life. but it is a cognitive rendition of our entire life, our whole body and mind, and our whole environment. It's a cognitive rendition of the relationship of our old equipment to the entire environment. But this activity here has the power to relate to reality. it can relate to reality.

[75:49]

And when it does relate to reality, certain things start happening, like indeterminacy and so on. But this teaching that has been created by human beings, this teaching of climate change, I would say that that's part of their world as a result of their karma together. Okay, to relate this to our practice, when I have as a practice to study karmic consciousness, to study my own karmic consciousness, I mainly think of my own private idiosyncratic world, to study that first and foremost. Yes, that's right. And not about studying scientific concepts. Except in your world. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, whatever, attached to it.

[76:51]

Right, and I, yeah, so you are, so in your particular world, in your karmic consciousness, these things live there. Part of your world. But it's not part of some other people's world, right? They have karmic consciousness which don't have these things in them. I guess. Yeah. But they do, for example, have a wooden ceiling in their world and chairs. So you and scientists can talk to the people who have chairs and wooden ceilings and share that world with them. And then in that world you can do karma together and make your karma similar so you can introduce karma change into their consciousnesses. And you can do that more effectively when you realize that this climate change thing is actually nothing but karmic consciousness that's been developed because certain people got together, their karmic consciousness together, and talked with each other.

[78:00]

Karma talked, and they created this thing which they think is helpful and important. But they need, and they'll be more effective in transmitting, I would say, what they found out by studying their karmic consciousnesses, actually. It's what they've been doing. I think they've been more effective in communicating with the people who have not been doing this kind of karma. So some people do, scientists do a certain kind of karma. But they are not necessarily aware that they're doing karma. They're not necessarily aware that there's a power of their thoughts in the worlds of reality. Okay, last note. I think that this language of construction It would be very helpful. But I also think there's... Personally, I think there's a lot of discovery.

[79:01]

Because sometimes we tend to think that we discover things. Yeah. Well, I agree. Discovery. And I think it's interesting to point out that we often say that the Buddha discovered what we call the teaching of dependent co-arising. That it wasn't seen on the planet before him. that teaching. So often people say he discovered this, that his enlightenment was a discovery. But I also like to say that his enlightenment was a choice, that he chose dependent co-arising as the teaching. He both discovered it and chose it. In other words, that it was a discovery, yes, but it was also a karmic act. He thought this would be helpful. But I think discovery is a big part of it. That revelation and discovery is part of what happens when you study karmic consciousness. Now, creativity.

[80:02]

And creativity is closely connected to salvation. And creativity is closely connected to karmic consciousness. Thank you. Thank you for your patience. You were talking about creating worlds, and somebody earlier was... And you were excluding karmic consciousness from iron, for example. I don't say... I wouldn't... She said I was speaking of karmic consciousness as creating worlds. And again, I just wanted to say that the world I live in is not created just by my karmic consciousness because my karmic consciousness operates through the support of other karmic consciousnesses.

[81:12]

So, the world we live in and the sub-worlds we live in are the result of the karmic consciousness. And she said, I excluded karmic consciousness From? Iron. Iron. What I mean is that iron, my karmic consciousness imagines iron as not having karmic consciousness. But iron is included in the world created by karmic consciousness. So it lives, all worlds live in, are created by the karma of all of us. and there's many innumerable worlds, but they're all created by, they're all thought constructions. And iron, and a lot of them anyway, but iron is not imagined by this person as having karmic consciousness. I don't see iron like going around saying, I'm not deluded.

[82:16]

Okay, so we have a super... We chant in the morning, and it's one of dogens, I believe. And there's some words in there about how when we practice zazen, the realization goes forth into the world, and even walls and pebbles and... become realized. Yes. And then that sort of resonates back to us. Right. So that implies to me then all phenomena are include... are... Are included. ...participate, have their own participation and are not separate. And I don't... it seems... I don't know if I misunderstand you, but it seems as if you're saying that there's kind of a in a sense, kind of a bubble around our karmic consciousness that doesn't extend into trees or... Then Dogen seems to be saying that... Or what I'm interpreting... I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate your question, and I have an answer.

[83:30]

Okay. So one thing I would say is that our karmic consciousness creates a bubble around There's no bubble, but karmic consciousness creates the impression of a bubble around us. We don't call it a bubble, we think it's the world. But this world we live in is a cognitively created enclosure. The world isn't like what we see as a result. But still, in this world, not in this world so much, but in the world of all of our relationships, If we take care of our common consciousness, that resonates with the action, not my version of it, of rocks, tiles, and pebbles. And they, in turn, resonate back to you and me in this resonance of enlightenment.

[84:35]

And they're participating too. Yeah. They're not living in little cognitively enclosed worlds the way we are. I don't think they're new ascension beings. But they're totally participating in this world. So part of what we do is if we care for our enclosure, we're living in the enclosing function of it so that beings that aren't enclosed in it we see the resonance that's been going on between us and them the whole time. And also other beings who are enclosed in it, we see the resonance with them. So we see the resonance between ourselves and those who are also enclosed, not yet take care of themselves so that they're open to this realization. And we see it with beings who never were enclosed. The enclosure is unreal. We're actually in close relationship with all the stuff of our own body, all the chemicals and minerals of our own body, all the minerals throughout the universe.

[85:42]

We're all in this close relationship. Now, it also says that this relationship does not appear within perception. It doesn't appear within karmic consciousness. Now, we could have a story about it, but that's a karmic consciousness. inconceivable, you know, unlimited resonance between all beings. So then, are trees and rocks and walls are still beings, but they're not sentient beings? Yeah, they're beings but not sentient beings, because sentient beings means those who are caught up in illusion and of birth and death. I don't think iron... thinks of birth and death. I don't see iron particles being afraid of dying and having a hard time being composed. I don't see that.

[86:43]

But perhaps iron has, it participates in, is consciousness? Is consciousness? Again, we can't separate our consciousness from our body. No, we can't separate any of it. But I wouldn't say that iron is consciousness. But if it's made up of atoms and things that are constantly in flux... It's not really made up of them, it depends on them. Okay, if it depends on atoms and... It's very important to not say that our consciousness is made up of iron and other things. It depends on them. But it isn't that you get into your consciousness, you're going to find little iron filings. No. But in fact, if you don't have iron in your body, you're not going to be a conscious being. Because you depend... But your being isn't... You're not iron. Iron is not you.

[87:47]

You're not potassium. You're not your body. But you depend on a body. If you say you are these things, well, you don't say you are these things. But there's nothing to a bunch of dependencies. So we depend on iron, and iron depends on us. But I don't see iron as being able to imagine that it's independent, whereas living beings can imagine they're independent. which is a great achievement of the universe, but now the Buddhas are coming to help us realize we're not independent of iron, and iron is not independent of us. We're totally intimate with all kinds of minerals and vegetables. And we can inquire of Buddha nature. Is that right? We can inquire. of everything we can inquire. We have that ability.

[88:47]

And it's being encouraged by these creatures called Buddhas. And do Buddhas also reside in rocks and trees? Do they? Buddhas reside in practice. Buddhas are the practice of Buddhas. They don't reside in anything. They're the practice of not residing. They're the practice of being devoted without residing. They're the practice of being compassionate without substantiation. The practice of emptiness for the welfare of all beings. They don't really have a residence and yet that's why they're not the least bit separate from us. Like they don't live where you are and they're not separate from you. So they can be with me too. So they're with both of us, in either of us, or some other place other than where we are. They're intimate. You're welcome.

[89:50]

They're intimate and insubstantial, great compassion. I think she was next. Well, we had a line, a step. Oh, we had a line, okay. Here. then I think I was wrong. I was deluded. It's possible she was next. Are you going to go to Grace? Grace? I'm after Jim. Karmically created world. This is back on the topic of salvation. See, I had a different world, and we talked about it. We did some karma together, and now we're in the same world. Do you see that? John Tenfield and I were talking last night about salvation. And we were saying... He was saying, actually. I can blame myself.

[90:53]

Anyway, some religions have the idea that beings are saved through things that we do with them, I guess. Things that we do with what? With beings. What? With other beings. Yeah. Or you could say... Go ahead. Yeah. And then some other connected religion has a view that beings are saved through grace, through the activity of some... you know, higher power or so forth. And, you know, I had a long time, it took me a long time to appreciate how beings are saved in Buddhism, but my understanding at this point is that we save beings by not clinging to them. And if that's the case, whether it is or not, my experience is that beings that I meet have a hard time... Can I say something?

[92:12]

Can you remember what you're going to say next? Yeah. Okay. So I just want to say, he said now he's feeling like beings are clinging to them. Okay. I agree. But... I would also say, in addition, beings are saved by you not clinging to yourself. If you can learn to not cling to yourself, then you can not cling to them. So when you go meet a being and you show them you're not clinging to yourself, and then you also show them that you're not clinging to them, then they learn from you what will save them. which is not to cling to themselves, and to go and not cling to others. It is right, but I would say rather than not clinging to beings is what saved beings, I would say not clinging to them is an essential ingredient in their salvation. But please understand that not clinging to them would depend on another thing, which is not clinging to yourself.

[93:18]

So not clinging to others is necessary to save beings. I quote that. Yeah. It seems to me that in my experience in meeting other beings is that they have I don't readily see that the program is that we're not clinging to you, and that's what we're offering. You know, it's not as easy to see. That's quite subtle. That's quite subtle. So, consequently, there aren't as many people at my group as there are at some other churches. Right, right. It's easier for them to understand, maybe, I'm here for you.

[94:24]

I'm here for you. I'm here for you. My life is to serve you. I'm your friend. I'm your supporter. Easier for them to see that maybe, which is part of it too. And the thing I want to show you is the practice of not being concerned for myself, not being attached to myself. I want you to learn that. And also, I'm not attached to you learning it. I really wanted to, but I'm not attached to you or you learning it. And later. But first of all, I'm here for you. I'm here for all beings. That's what I'm here for. They understand that. But a lot of Zen centers don't say that right away, that we're here for you. So some people don't come. And also some people do come who don't want somebody to be there for them. They're afraid of such people because they think people might be not telling the truth.

[95:34]

you know, just try to trick them into thinking that I love you. And I just want to say something about the grace and the works. Yes. So, in the Buddha Dharma, I think, it's not so much that people are saved by works, but that they're saved by studying works, by being mindful of our works. That makes our works become more and more supportive of us not attaching to our works, of our realizing the insubstantiality of our works. Our works, our karmic consciousness is our works. If we don't take care of it, we tend to attach to our works. And that doesn't save me or others. So doing works is definitely a part of Buddha Dharma. Now, if I do my works, already grace is starting to function.

[96:40]

I mean, if I study my works, grace is already working in me because the Buddhas are teaching me to do that very thing. So that when you're doing that kind of practice of not only doing works, because everybody does works, and some people do works for the welfare of others. If you do work for the welfare of the others without reflecting on your working, You're missing the study of karmic consciousness. And that's not what the Buddhas want you to do. They want you to do works for others and watch yourself imagine that process. They want you to do that. And when you do that, grace is functional. That's what they've given us. So in Buddhism, it's both works and grace. But the key thing is that the type of works it is, is the works of applying the teaching to you, apply the Dharma teachings to your works. So when you're working for the welfare of others, you remember that self and other are not two.

[97:42]

You remember that delusion and enlightenment are not two. You remember Buddhas and Saint-Champaigns are not two. You apply those teachings while you're helping them. You remember that caring for karmic consciousness is... enlightenment. And when you do that... If you just go to try to help people without studying your common consciousness, you're blocking the grace. Does that make sense? Yes. You're saying, I'm going to do this. I don't need any grace. I'm going to practice Buddhism. I don't need any help. But if you turn around and study that, then suddenly you open to grace. So in that regard, I said my Zen group is actually John Griggs' Zen group. It's John Penfield's Zen group. And it's anybody else in here or anywhere else. Thanks for taking care of my Zen group. Grace, are you next? Yes. A continuation of this question.

[98:50]

So, let's see. I take care of all sentient beings. I have number one vow, and occasionally I remember that vow, that I vow to save all sentient beings. Number two... I use the scientific method, and I look at my behavior, and I see if my behavior is making me happy, sad, or happier, sad. Or number three. I forget one. Number three. Number three, I have faith. I have faith in good actions and good deeds to in fact put forward a better world. And that's come to me through Christianity, through life itself. And at any given moment, I can use one of those three strategies to try to look at karmic consciousness

[99:53]

But the second strategy, which is to use the scientific method, is the most dangerous because it tends to take me out of contact with other people. I just look at my behavior and I say, yes, this is better. The end result was better. Karmic consciousness has improved. Mind and other peoples. Do you understand what I'm saying? Well, we'll see. So, if I look at my karmic consciousness and I look at it, oh, there's a teaching in this karmic consciousness that good actions raise people up and unskillful actions, they fall down. That teaching is in my karmic consciousness. But that doesn't mean that when I think that something's good, that that means it's good.

[101:02]

It means that I have this teaching, so I'm looking at my karmic consciousness with the awareness of what I think it is, and I'm with the awareness that if it's good, it will have good results. In this case, I can't know that it's good because it depends on something that hasn't happened yet. Well, I can look tomorrow at what I did today. Right, but you can do that. You can even look a few minutes now. You can also look in your next life, but there's no end. So you can't actually see causation. So you said faith, and it's a faith. This teaching is a faith thing. You cannot see causation. However, you can look at it. You can watch it. You can be devoted to it like a child. You can take care of it all the time. In other words, you always think, you'll remember, what I'm thinking now has effects.

[102:08]

And generally speaking, I have a theory that skillful karma requires and grows on attention to karma. And unskillful karma generally goes, it's not a teaching, it's a faith teaching in a way because the Buddha said it, that unskillful karma goes with not paying attention to karmic consciousness. Unskillful karma goes with thinking that karma doesn't matter. So also state usually to have the thought what you do doesn't matter, doesn't have consequence. But the Buddha also says, don't just take that and walk off. Study it. Look and see. Do you ever have that consciousness that says, what I think has matter, what I think doesn't matter. And therefore it doesn't matter if I look. But if you remember that, you're starting to get to a skillful state.

[103:12]

So if you never look... I think you will be an example for the world of a miserable person. But you won't know because you never look. So I watch others and myself, and it seems like that I see some verification that not paying attention to karmic consciousness leads to unskillful karma. It doesn't lead to misery. But it's kind of a theory still, in a way, because the whole thing may turn around next Tuesday. So for me, the antidote to applying the assigned method is to acknowledge and confess that I doubt another person or feedback or processing of what I think is a better outcome. What your karmic consciousness is calling a scientific method, I would say right now, in my karmic consciousness, is not the scientific method.

[104:18]

The scientific method is more... Well, you welcome feedback from the other scientists. That's more my idea of scientific method. So I think scientific method is good if what it means by that is self-study because scientists, the power of their mind is what leads to these discoveries. But if they're clear of their minds, they're not going to be able to realize their discoveries in the world because nobody else is going to do karma similar to them to manifest it. So I think your later understanding, your later method is more appropriate to the realization of scientific knowledge. It's a social thing. And studying karma is a social practice. Yes? I asked you last night if you're feeling better.

[105:18]

I'm sorry. Thank you. I wanted to express my care for you with that question, and I wanted to protect myself because I find that you're kind of ornery when you're saying you have this story. So I... I wanted to express my care for you, but I also wanted to protect myself. Aren't I only when I'm not sick? Yes. I mean, what I mean is, in your karmically creative world, aren't I ornery pretty much any old time? Would you be ornery any time?

[106:22]

I guess I was a little bit less ornery in that moment or something. I also want to confess that I don't want a teacher who uses the word bitch in his Dharma talks. Just a little bit of orneriness. You felt orneriness? Just a little bit of orneriness sometimes puts me in touch with tremendous fear. But did you feel orneriness towards the word bitch? Well, I guess I risked it as what I feel we're in touch with. So you felt fear of the word bitch?

[107:30]

I mean, in short, I felt like my life was in danger. And you don't want a teacher with whom you feel your life is in danger? I'll consider that. Thank you. Could I say something before you come up? So, I think the Buddha was somebody who appeared in the world to help people open up to that their life was in danger.

[108:47]

he kind of encouraged them to open up to the dangers of life. And he kind of said, if you're not aware of the dangers, you might become intoxicated by it. Now, is the teacher somebody who helps you open up to the dangers of life? But maybe the teacher being somebody who's dangerous is not okay. And so part of this is the teachers, not just the teachers telling people, encouraging people to open to dangers, but the teacher manifesting the appearance of dangerousness.

[109:51]

And the monk's not opening to that dangerous apparition. And then the teacher offering it again and the monk not opening to it. And the teacher offering it again and the monk not opening to it. Let's just make this clear. I do not want you to appear dangerous. You can talk about the dangers of life. and be a nice guy who's sort of like holding my hand and bringing me over to the edge of the cliff. That's okay. But don't you turn into the cliff. That couldn't be nice. And then the story goes on and somebody points out to the monk who does not want the teacher to be dangerous that the teacher did everything for him to help him. And the monk seeing that But then, what about teachers who are not really being kind and who appear to be dangerous? And in the story we told, a word was used by me where I was quoting somebody else.

[110:59]

But then people can quote me, and it's not a problem that they're using the word. So people can say, I don't like you using that word. I don't want you to use that word. But I can't. I can't say somebody said that word. Why can't I? Because when I say it, it's scarier than when you say that you don't want me to say it. It doesn't seem so scary, I guess. Right? I don't want you to use that word. I don't like that word. That didn't scare people much, did it? But if I use it, even if I'm quoting somebody, dangerous. So that's part of what's going on here. What is that? Probably like Steph said, we feel our life in danger.

[112:05]

And in a way our life is not in danger. In a way, it's not. But in order to find out how it's not in danger, how we're safe, we kind of have to look to the possibilities of it being in danger. We're not necessarily going to for sure go insane, but we might. We're not going to necessarily lose our reputation, but we might. We're not going to necessarily lose our health, but we might. We're not going to necessarily be safe, but we might. In other words, our karmic consciousness might create a world where we're losing these things. So the Buddha lists those things that we're vulnerable to, to those kinds of losses. But then he also says, we're vulnerable to our karma, which makes these things into losses. which makes our life into a life of loss and danger.

[113:12]

There is safety, but in order to arrive at safety, we have to encounter the consciousness which makes life. And if you don't look at the life that's created by that mind, the life where there's dangers, well, then you're just going to be living in, you know, trying to avoid dangers all the time. That won't be safety. Yes. Oh, what I liked about this moment is I think no one's going to pay attention to what I'm going to say because this was such a compelling moment. So I feel like I can kind of sneak in with this thing which I'm a little ambivalent about talking about. It makes your life feel less endangered? Yeah. Hi.

[114:18]

I'd like to report on my study of myself, this self. And in our last class, people at the end were talking about being afraid, about fear. And I sat over there thinking, that's not my thing. I'm not. People, and then somebody used the word terror, and I thought, wow, that's just a different, isn't it? And then I started thinking, oh, am I self-congratulating? And I said, well, what's my thanks? And then I mentioned them to myself, being judgmental and righteous. And then I realized I am afraid. And... I've been afraid here. What I've been afraid about is talking about... Excuse me a second.

[115:26]

Can you hear her? Would you talk about your fear more loudly? Please? Yes! hide when I come here. And I have appreciated the anonymity of being here. It's the only place in my life where I, I don't know, in some ways I don't hide at all. In some ways I'm completely visible here. But I have a story right now that I'm withholding something when I'm here. And the particular thing I feel like I've been withholding from the Sangha is that I've been involved in a project for about six years that... kind of a wonderful thing in the world, a very wonderful contribution in the world.

[116:51]

It's a not-for-profit. I'm very, very, very involved in it. And... It's very successful. It's making a great contribution, I would say, and other people say. It's called Awakening the Dreamer, Changing the Dream, bringing up awakening. It's a program. And I feel like nobody knows. I'm very involved in creating it, along with hundreds of other people and experts. And it's like nobody knows anything. The fact that I've been by you in the Dharma, it's like it's slipped into this program. And although everybody thinks it's a great program, nobody knows, really. the heart of it in some ways, that's come in through my relationship with you. And the program started right before I got to precepts. I feel incognito a little bit, even in that part of my world.

[117:55]

Happily, because here it is, this program is so much better since it's fused invisibly with the Dharma. But the thing that I've been withholding from you is I haven't told you about it. And it's like as though it wouldn't make a difference to you. And I don't think that's true. I do think this Awakening the Dreamer, Changing the Dream Symposium would make a huge difference to this. And I've been afraid of being judged if I said that. I was afraid that you might not like it, it might not be... Buddhistly correct and it might not be but the thing I wanted to share is not wanting to withhold it from you and it's more important that I just say this even than whether you ever take the program or not

[118:59]

from my point of view. And at the same time, I'd be very happy to offer it to this Sangha, either during the intensive or afterwards. It takes four hours. Its purpose is that people leave committed to bringing forth an environmentally sustainable, fulfilling, and socially just human presence on this planet. outrageously successful beyond anything we ever dreamed. We don't understand why it's so successful. It's spreading all around the world. I'm traveling all around the world reading it. It's like it's this time. It's based on four questions. The first is, where are we as a planet, as a people? Second is, how did we get here? Third is, what's possible for the future? And fourth is, where do we go from here? And today, when you were talking, I really had a question.

[120:01]

How did we get here? In some ways, it's really about karmic consciousness, but it doesn't use those words. That's what I wanted to say. Thank you. Thank you. I just thought about enlightenment. It keeps coming up, and I guess I'm going to bounce it off people. It comes from a song, and I can't even remember the name of the song, but the enlightenment is like falling in love with reality all over again. I don't know, I just won't bounce it out.

[121:05]

I think I would like to remember to watch to see if I withhold something, am I withholding as a gift? Like, you know, if I'm irritated with somebody and I don't tell them, am I withholding that as a gift? Am I withholding that as a gift? Or am I withholding to protect myself or to maintain something for myself? Sometimes withholding certain expressions is really appropriate and helps people actually practice doesn't distract them.

[122:32]

But other times withholding is not really to protect myself. So I think it's good for me to look to see what kind of withholding is this. Even complimenting somebody I might not do to protect myself from what would happen if I offered this gift. You know, like it might embarrass them or they might be so grateful I wouldn't be able to cope with the gratitude. It might make my life really intense if I said how much I appreciated someone. Maybe I'm not up for that intensity even though I have that feeling. So there's many ways we try to keep ourselves kind of together and Are they gifts? Or are they, you know, holding up, trying to .

[123:39]

So I would like to commit to look at that. So if people have a hard time with me, I might have something to offer to them. but I might feel like, well, I think what I'll offer. Not say that, because I think that would be helpful to them. And that might be hard for me or not. Other times, people might have a hard time with me and I might have something to offer. I think it is good to offer, but I might not because I'm afraid what will happen to me if I offer it. Having a hard time with me. And so on. They could have a hard time with me, and I would offer something, knowing that it might be difficult, but feeling like I think it would be good for them, even though it's going to be difficult to say it.

[124:44]

So I try to look at all that stuff in this study of myself with you. I was going to say this to you alone, so I'm taking a risk by saying it to you in front of everybody. I've listened to a number of the women here speak about the word base and your use of it. I really appreciate the difficult position that you're in when you say something consciously or with and absence of consciousness in terms of the effect that it will have. Although I'm a woman, I would hope that I would feel this way regardless whether I was male or female, because I think that the word bitch is generally used when it's used to describe a woman.

[125:57]

It's generally used to poor contempt on women, generally to control women, to keep them in their place, to make sure that other people also, or to encourage other people to feel hatred for that person. sometimes gay men use it affectionately and I think that all words can take on a somewhat different meaning according to context but the agreed upon meaning of bitch is generally quite to women and I also think that using it in most contexts is harmful to the person who speaks it And the danger is that we're breaking that precept about not abusing others to elevate... I'm not saying that I've never used that word.

[127:08]

I have, and I've regretted it. And I appreciate your... willingness to address this in front of everybody. And my request is, I would like to know if you understand that using that word as a teacher, especially with the position that you have and the responsibility that goes with it, if you understand that it can feel like a defilement, a kind of demeaning not only to the women, but probably to some of the men here, because we're all together in this. You're asking me if I understand that if I use that word, it can feel like a defilement? Yes.

[128:09]

I understand that. Okay. And... And what... Kind of a humiliation, a way, even when I know that, for example, if I were to use the word nigger, that could feel very offensive, even if I was quoting somebody else, even if I was using it in representation of my own feelings. Can you say it could? Yes. But could also, it could not be? Yes, it also could not. So I just... So the word we're talking about, could I use it in a way that would not be offensive? I think in a way that is not offensive. I just said that in the way that gay men sometimes refer to each other as a bitch quite affectionately. And so I know that context shapes everything.

[129:14]

And in addition to that, words have an agreed that generally is understood. Otherwise, we couldn't even speak to each other now. And so that's what I'm... Well, some words have agreed upon meaning in certain worlds. Yes. But others, they mean different something else. And in this world, this world of Buddha Dharma, our meaning and our purpose are combined. And part of our purpose, as you're saying, is taking care of our karmic consciousness. So when you said that word, I did not feel that you were taking care of the karmic consciousness here. I felt that it was harmed. That was my experience. you felt that the common consciousness was harmed? Our consciousness, yes, because it's a word that is generally agreed upon to be harmful.

[130:17]

So I felt, and I felt not just as a woman but as a human being. And I... And what was hurt? That is not something that can be found. But it nevertheless was my feeling. You felt pain. I felt pain on behalf of all women. I did not take it on personally. I, um... I believe that what we say, as you've been teaching, creates karmic consciousness. Our words are part of the creation of karmic consciousness. I believe that too. So that's what I'm saying. Okay.

[131:22]

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I wanted to offer you something perhaps on the other side of that, because I've heard you say several times that you're very careful about what you say to people, about giving advice, because it might be overwhelming. Can you hear her? No, not well. Would you speak that way? I can hear you there. Several times, both this morning and in other conversations, I've heard Reb say that he's careful about giving advice or some of the comments he makes, that you kind of pull your punches.

[132:31]

So because of your awareness that people are very sensitive to what you might say, And so that you've learned to kind of wait for people to offer a suggestion about what they might do and then agree or not agree rather than making a suggestion. And you could knock me down, and it would be hard. But also, I would hope, and I have some trust in you and in the relationship with you that we might work it out if that happened. And so I don't want you to be as cautious as I think that you say that you feel you need to be. I hear you. I just wanted to offer you this.

[133:35]

Thank you. Well, I'd like to second that. I think this is kind of a play of karmic consciousness and all its permutations. And the word bitch has many connotations. Many of them are very destructive and harmful. But I've been called a bitch and taken in as a compliment. And... So, with apologies to my sister, you know, it doesn't always... You know, listen to what's underneath. Language is a very magical thing. And you can turn it and... get attached in ways that perhaps are not necessary.

[134:45]

I have aspired to be a bitch. Some of the women I've heard called bitch, it was done so because they were strong, because they fully expressed themselves and they were fully present. And so many times I felt quite the opposite. I don't want that taken away from me. Bitch. People call me a bitch. I welcome your feedback. Thank you. I heard a, uh-oh.

[136:29]

What's that about? I thought you said comic contact. I heard my dad call my mother a bitch. He said it a bit harder than what I just said it. And it hurt me. And I know it hurt her. And, um... I've called women a bitch. I, uh... When I was in the Navy, I called a prostitute a bitch. And she wouldn't do what I wanted her to do, what I thought I'd paid her for. Um... And I think it's very difficult for a woman to hear a man say it because the historical context of the relationship between men and women

[137:46]

And I don't think there's an easy answer to the question. One of the things that came up in my mind while this discussion's been going on is how some black people use the word nigger as a way of, from my understanding of hearing what when they've used it is a way of taking away its power of destructiveness. I don't know whether that's true because no one's called me a nigger. They've called me lots of other things. And... And my teacher tells me that where people have caused me great pain, that I should not only love the pain, but love them. And that's quite a difficult thing to do.

[138:59]

But I have faith that he's not taking the mickey out of me when he tells me to do that. So, yeah. So in the society we live in, in the media and the newspapers and television, we always hear that somebody's an SOB.

[140:26]

they don't say the word, they just write an S, a dot, [...] dot. And everyone knows what it is, doesn't it? You just know. For instance, if we say it, or we just indicate it, indicating it is acceptable, but saying it is not acceptable. So I would prefer if somebody wants to say something, just say it. I mean, you know what I mean. And I use very, very powerful language when I'm working. So don't come close to me if you're sensitive. Because that's just the way it is. And I would not like to tell a rap. how he's supposed to . So he should use whatever he seems fit from my part. Thank you very much. So during this discussion, this recent discussion, and actually lots of other times, I have lots of reactions.

[141:50]

And so as I start to study them, or as I look at them, if you suggested, something else will happen. And I didn't even get done studying this one. You know when I'm bombarded again? And it keeps on going and going. And so there's... I guess I'm wondering how to deal with how to skillfully study ongoingly. If the world keeps happening, it doesn't pause for me to take a look. Yeah. Maybe you can just continuously wonder how to do that. moves forward or backwards. And that's studying myself. I guess, you know, I think of studying myself, I think I need a therapist. That's what comes up when I think of studying myself, that I need, that that's how it's done, is with a therapist.

[142:59]

And you're not suggesting that... Well, maybe you are, but... Now, I'm saying that... What I'm suggesting is when you think that studying yourself is having a therapist, that you study that thought. And then that one moves on and study the next one. And the next one. I think the world needs human beings to study their thoughts moment by moment. We need you to do that. It seems to get overwhelming from you very quickly. Because when you talk, what I heard you say on Sunday was that embarrassment about, for the Buddha, feeling as he did what he thought he should be otherwise. That happens to me all the time. Yeah. So, when you're overwhelmed, what do you do when you feel overwhelmed? Well, I shut down in some.

[144:02]

Well, yeah, that's what you do, shut down. I'm not asking you to shut down, but I am asking you to pay attention to you that you shut down. And then if you pay attention and you shut down, you might pay attention to being shut down again and say, well, I think I've been shut down long enough, now I'm going to open up again. Even though I know pretty soon if I open up and start paying attention... I may quickly be overwhelmed and then shut down again. I've seen that pattern. And right now I'm watching my observation of my story of my history. And now with that story of my history that I often, if I open up to paying attention to myself, I often become overwhelmed and shut down. I feel ready now to look again, knowing that I might get overwhelmed. So it really is a minute-by-minute activity. When you say, what I'm asking you to do, and what the ancestors are asking us to do, is a minute-by-minute thing, which includes that you might be in a room with your husband sometime, and then you would be looking at yourself.

[145:17]

Or you might be in a room with the therapist. husband and be looking at yourself. Or you might be in a room with all of us. But just ongoingly, take care of yourself. Love this person. And what is this person? Well, she's pretty much her karmic consciousness is what she is. which depends on a body and an environment and all that. And in fact, it is her interpretation of her world. She always has a story about what's going on. And I'm asking you to take care of that story. And this one, and this one, and this one, and this one. This is getting overwhelming. Time to close down the study shop. No more Buddhism for a while. Let's take a break. I hope that you stay conscious on your break. You say, no, I can't. If I'm conscious on my break, it won't be a break. So I'm going to totally go unconscious.

[146:18]

Okay. My job is to love that. When you totally don't want to pay attention to anything, you just want to withdraw entirely from awareness, that's the kind of awareness which somebody's going to love, even if you refuse. But you'll come back. You feel, okay, all right, I'm going to pay attention again. And then you will, and then you will, and then you will, and then you will lose it. And then you'll notice it, and you'll confess, I lost it. But I still want to do it, even though it's hard. And you'll try again, and you'll do it again and again, and you'll lose it. You lost it, and you'll come back. And in that way, you will eventually become continuous in your mindfulness, and you will become Buddha. But it may take lots of training, which includes lots of to do the assignment of studying yourself, of studying your stories about this life.

[147:29]

which your mind, like a normal human, is constantly generating, constantly actively generating the current world is and how you're in it. And sometimes the way you study it sometimes is maybe too hard. So then you have to sort of go to the other side and be too soft. Mm-hmm. Intense, then the message is, this is not the way to study. So you take a break, and then you're not intense enough. Gradually you will find this balanced way, this relaxed, welcoming, patient, calm, not overbearing mode of study. Where do you get the knowledge that I'll become that... I get it from the Buddhas.

[148:34]

Maybe I should read that. Catherine said I got it from the Lotus Sutra. Okay, well, in context. Pardon? Pardon? Buddha's an ancestor, so he's saying that we in the future will be Buddha's ancestors. Where do you get it? I haven't gotten it. And where do you forget it? Right? Where do you forget it? Where? Yeah, where? Where do you forget it? In my mind. Yeah, right. Right here in your mind you forget it. So that's also where you're going to remember it. With maybe some help from your friends.

[149:38]

Well, I wanted to ask you about that my recollection of your conversation with Yuki the other day was that I thought I heard you say that you never think about whether what you do helps anybody. I don't know. I almost never think, does that help people? I always think, I want to help people. Right. But I don't think, does that help people? I think that for me, I just don't do it. People tell me that it doesn't or it does. I have plenty of that going on. I heard some of that today. But it's kind of a... I mean, I kind of, I might say, I wonder if I'm helpful, but I don't even do that. So my focus is on my... That's the kind of person I am. I just don't wonder about such things. I wonder about whether I really want to help people. Uh-huh. And my answer is yes.

[150:42]

I don't, you know, and yeah, I know that I could be unscareful. I know I could be unskillful. I know that, so I don't really think, is it possible that I could be unskillful? I don't really ongoingly know that that's a possibility all the time. So I have my aspiration to help, and then my focus is on doing it as skillfully as I know how, rather than how it's going to land or what they're going to think or whether or not they're going to love me. Is that what you're suggesting? Yeah, I guess, yeah, not so much concerned about whether they'll love you or hate you, but rather, do you think this would be helpful? So I do wonder if this would be helpful, but that's different from me wondering if I'm helpful. I wonder if this would be helpful for me to talk this way. I wonder if it would be helpful for me to say this.

[151:46]

And sometimes I think, I think it would be helpful, so I'm going to try it. Mm-hmm. Along with an element of bringing along as much skill as I can at the moment. It's the same thing. I wonder if this would be skillful. I think this would be skillful. I think it would be skillful. I'm going to try it. It might not be, but I'm going to try it. Here I go. I'm going to try it. I think this might be helpful. Mm-hmm. And then, of course, again, ask for feedback. It makes me know that I did it. It's just that I think it helps me then be skillful to realize that I'm being supported to do this practice. And then that I study however I react to their feedback. Yeah, and hopefully be able to. Yeah, that you actually could like watch, oh, I asked for feedback, here it comes, and how does that feel?

[152:50]

And, you know, sometimes it's amazing how you feel when you get what you asked for. Yeah, yeah. It's great, but nice to check it out. take it and not pay attention to what happened. And then you can maybe feel like, oh, based on that now I think I have something else skillful to offer or something more skillful to offer. I think this is even more skillful now. Even the last one wasn't so skillful. Now I think I have a better one and so on. And this is the wonderful to do this kind of work. And this is grace to be able, when you do it, this is grace working through us to do this study. So if I have a reaction, and the reaction is, I can't believe how irritated I am over something as small as this. Yes. That's your karmic consciousness. That's your story. Notice it. Notice it. Notice is kind of number one. Then start bringing the love. Bring in the love right then. Don't love it before you notice it.

[153:52]

Usually I have a couple layers of, I can't believe that. Well, I can't believe it, but then before you get into it, Right away, welcome it. Love it. Be calm with it. Be calm with it. Right away. Be still with it. Right away. Right away. Right away. And then maybe another, I really can't believe it. This is amazing. Each one of these things, what the world needs you to do is take care of each one of these things. We really need you to do this. It's a big, difficult job. It's about the most difficult job we have. And it's also, I think, the most essential for the world. It creates worlds. So if we take care of the thing that creates worlds, the idea is it's going to make better worlds. And it's going to make worlds in which more people are going to take care of their own work, which makes better worlds.

[154:57]

Tell me a little about bringing in love. That's the stillness. Is that right? It's a possible stillness almost before you notice. Like you're always practicing stillness. You're constantly being still with your life. And then something arises when you notice it. And you continue to be still with it. And also quiet. Like no comment. You're looking at a comment. Before you make a comment on the comment, take care of the comment. Feel it. Be calm with it. Be gentle with it. Don't try to get rid of it. Don't be violent with it. Say thank you to the comment. And then another one will come. But it's not, there's something, there's some love between the comments. The karmic consciousness is interlaced with compassion. In other words, interlaced with enlightenment. Which it is. But if we don't practice all these little enlightenments that are there with each karmic consciousness.

[156:04]

And when we accept that love and practice that love, this is the Buddha's grace working with our karmic consciousness. Which the Buddha didn't give us. They came to help us with it. And when you practice that, you more and more feel the Buddhas are practicing with you to support you to study your karmic consciousness. Including the karmic consciousness which is, I can't stand to study right now. I've got to look away. That's another one. Maybe you can deal with that one. And then, okay, now I can look back. That's another one. Because that's all we've got to work with. That's the life of the truth. That's the life force of the truth, I should say.

[157:08]

And you are the lifeblood of the Buddhists. Is it too late? I'd like to ask a question about the comment. It's not too late, no. Unless somebody says that it is. They want to go. It's short, very short. When you notice a comment arising in a situation, So, to discriminate the comment that you just let go, let it be part of the reality of the moment and then go to the next moment, or, hmm, let me see what's behind that.

[158:16]

If a comment is interesting, then you study it. Always. Always. Learn to do it always. And then if another comment comes in the form of, let's inquire into what the meaning, what's behind this comment, that's another comment. It's another comment. Do that one. And if another one comes, let's go even deeper. Or, hey, we found something out. I found out what's behind it. That's another karmic consciousness. And this is wonderful. I'm having revelation here. That's another karmic consciousness. And each one gets the same loving attention. And when you get good at this, you won't abide in any of them. This love for these karmic consciousness, for these comments, if we take good care of them, we won't abide in them, we won't cling to them. And we don't come to be them authentically.

[159:22]

And then we start to realize, then we realize that this is, this way of being is the life force of the Buddhadharma. This is, this is our work. And we're doing Buddha's work. And this is, then we feel encouraged to continue, to continue. And we feel, you know, we want to continue. And if you notice that you're clinging. If you notice you're clinging, that means you don't love this comment enough. And enough means calmly enough, gently enough, welcoming, you're not gracious enough with it. If you're taking care of something and you're clinging to it, you need to love it more thoroughly. In the thoroughness of our compassion for our karmic consciousness, there's no clinging to it. We see the reality of it. And then we've accomplished the point of the study, is to see the truth.

[160:28]

And then we can teach people the truth, which involves often teaching them how to see it. We don't just tell them the truth, like, hey, karmic consciousness is insubstantial. How to study it so that they will see the truth. And when we see the truth, it helps us teach people how to see the truth without clinging to the instruction. Clinging is a hard one, yeah. And that clinging is what interferes with our being authentically ascension beings. Now, what time is service usually, 12? Yeah, so could we have service at 12 or 5? Okay, well, we could have service. Do you want to go now or do you want to do some singing first?

[161:31]

May our intention be fulfilled to every need and place.

[161:41]

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