a person named Nanyue and his student Matsu, where they are investigating, where they're examining the practice of sitting meditation. At one point, Nanyue says to Matsu, you're learning sitting meditation, you're studying sitting meditation, is studying sitting Buddha. If I, and I guess I do, accept Nanyue as an authentic teacher in the Buddha way, now I hear that learning for him, learning sitting meditation, studying sitting meditation is studying sitting Buddha.

[01:39]

And it seems to me that another person who I accept as an authority, as an authentic practitioner of sitting meditation, named Dogen, that for him, too, sitting meditation is sitting Buddha. The zazen that he teaches and talks about is totally culminated enlightenment. It includes all Buddhist practices, but it's not just part of them, it's all of them, totally culminated. So we use sitting meditation as an opportunity to study sitting Buddha. One of the translations is different.

[02:47]

It says, are you studying seated meditation or are you studying seated Buddha? But most of the other translations say, don't say, are you doing one or the other, but that doing one is doing the other. Even though one of the translations says, are you studying seated meditation or are you studying seated Buddha, even in that translation, the translation goes on to say further that even though we don't know the full reality of seated meditation, we do know that it is

[03:48]

studying seated Buddha. Even though we haven't realized fully the study of seated meditation, we know that it's studying seated Buddha. And then, and then Yann Nanyue goes on to instruct further. And his further instruction in some sense goes with treating seated meditation on one side and seated Buddha on the other. So he says, if you're studying seated meditation, then it has nothing to do with sitting or lying down.

[04:54]

And if you're studying seated Buddha, Buddha has no fixed form. So there's both a statement that these two define each other and that they emerge together, these two being seated meditation and seated Buddha. Learning seated meditation and learning Buddha, they arise together. And you can deal with them one at a time. If you deal with seated meditation, then we realize it has nothing to do with sitting or lying down. It is seated Buddha. And seated Buddha has nothing to do with sitting or lying down. Seated Buddha is saving all sentient beings.

[06:00]

If you're studying seated Buddha, then in the process of studying seated Buddha, there comes to be no marks, no fixed marks. Seated Buddha can have marks, but there are no fixed marks. seated Buddha could have the marks of your posture right now. Because it has no fixed marks, again, there's no way to defile it. You can't say, this is it, and this is not it. You can't, because Buddha has no fixed marks, when you study seated Buddha, your sitting cannot avoid being Buddha's sitting. You can't escape Buddhist sitting because Buddhist sitting has no marks, no fixed marks.

[07:08]

Its marks could be temporarily the marks of your practice, In the non-abiding dharma, there is no grasping or rejecting. The bodhisattvas are encouraged to produce a mind which doesn't abide in anything.

[08:28]

In other words, the bodhisattvas are encouraged to make a Buddha, to make a mind which is Buddha mind and does not abide in anything, which does not reject or grasp anything. And this mind which doesn't abide in anything, doesn't grasp anything and reject anything. This is the mind which is saving all sentient beings. This is the mind which is performing Buddha's work. It cannot be grasped, but it has no fixed form, so you can't get away from it. You can't make your mind into it, and you can't make your mind separate from it. However, you can enter it, your mind can enter this non-abiding dharma and be in the place where the sitting meditation, which is sitting Buddha, are arising together.

[09:54]

and saving all sentient beings. If you're studying Seated Buddha, Buddha has no fixed form and if you're studying seated Buddha this is killing Buddha. Now one translation avoids the word killing and just says this is transcending Buddha. But literally it does say killing Buddha but I agree that killing means going beyond. studying seated Buddha is to practice seated Buddha and go beyond seated Buddha.

[11:00]

And the last statement, the last teaching is, if you grasp the form of sitting, you're not reaching the principle or the essence of seated meditation. Just like if you grasp the form of seated Buddha, you're not reaching the principle or the reality of seated Buddha. And we must grasp that we must use the form of sitting in order to realize that the seated Buddha has no fixed form.

[12:16]

We must use the form of sitting to realize the formlessness of the practice. Because of innumerable past moments of grasping and believing in fixed form of things because of believing in grasp of fixed form in things and grasping things as such because of this kind of afflicted action even if we do not feel that we're grasping a form or using a form what we're doing is based on the belief that we can grasp forms and that forms are fixed So we need to express an interaction with form and discover any clinging in order to realize that there's no form to grasp and there's no clinging possible.

[13:25]

We cannot realize sitting Buddha unless we use a form. We cannot realize the formlessness of Buddha without fully engaging the form of sitting. This is the way to realize the formless samadhi of the ancestors is by fully engaging a form of sitting Buddha, a form of sitting meditation, a form of bowing, a form of eating, a form of cleaning. By embracing these forms fully, we realize that Buddha has no fixed mark. By embracing these forms fully, we realize the non-abiding Dharma. By embracing the precepts fully, we realize the non-abiding Dharma.

[14:36]

By embracing the form of sitting, by embracing the precepts fully, means that we never feel we've reached the end of our embracing of the practice. We never feel like we've reached the place where we can go no deeper. This is not the end of the study. This is just where I am now. And this is studying seated Buddha. And studying seated Buddha means I kill this Buddha. I go beyond this level of understanding. This isn't the end. Now there must be opportunities to go deeper, further possibilities to penetrate the reality. If I feel I'm done, then I'm not done on grasping.

[15:42]

Then I think that Buddha has a fixed form and this is it. This is one of the forms that Buddha has, yes, and now we can go deeper based on this. And Dogen Zenji says that to... to realize that grasping the form of sitting does not reach the principle of the sitting to realize that and realizing that to go ahead and grasp it those two together that opening to and bearing that tension between grasping it doesn't reach it and grasping it that we both have grasping of the form

[16:56]

And we have that grasping in the form doesn't reach the meaning of the form. Living between those two, that's called dropping off body and mind. That's actually making a Buddha. We must grasp the form of sitting even though grasping the form of sitting does not reach its principle. We must grasp in order to realize the non-abiding Dharma where there's no grasping. We must grasp in order to realize no grasping. And we must grasp in order to realize no rejecting. I didn't hear Dogen Zenji mention it, or Nanyue mention it, but I wonder, do we have to practice rejecting in order to realize no rejecting?

[18:04]

And do we have to practice rejecting in order to realize no grasping? Probably. I think we need to practice rejecting in order to realize no rejecting. I think we need to be really good rejectors in order to be non-rejectors. So not rejecting doesn't really mean not rejecting. It means whatever comes, you study it thoroughly. Now I thought I might just say that this story is one story in the life of these two masters. And they live in a big family, which could be our family.

[19:13]

Nanyue was one of the principal disciples of the sixth ancestor. and another principal disciple of the six ancestors named Chingyuran Singsa. Nanyue, I think, is where Nanyue lived, and Chingyuran is where Chingyuran lived. Nanyue's Dharma name was Huairang, and Chingyuran's Dharma name is Singsa. And our ancestor Dogen comes from both of these lineages, both of these teachers. Chingyuran's disciple who's leading down to our ancestors is named Shirto or Sekito.

[20:19]

And we're already talking about Nanyue's disciple Matsu. These two lead down to Dogen. Nanyue and Shinsa were Dharma brothers under the same teacher, but then they left their teacher. And I don't know if they met after they left anymore. And then, did I say Nanyue? Yeah, Nanyue and Xingzi, or Huairang and Xingzi, left their teacher and practiced in different parts of China and had different disciples. And one of Nanyue's disciple is Matsu, and one of Shirito's disciple is Yaoshan. Yashan's the teacher at the beginning of Seshim and in the Phukan Zazengi, Yashan's the teacher who's sitting and the monk says, what are you thinking about in sitting still?

[21:29]

That's Yashan. Okay? So over here on the Nanyue, Matsu's side, we have Nanyue asking Matsu what he's intending while he's sitting. And over on the Qingyuan, Xingzi side we have Sekito and Yakusan or Yaoshan. And monks are asking Yaoshan, what are you thinking about when you're sitting? And also Sekito is asking Yaoshan, what are you thinking about when you're sitting? What are you doing when you're sitting? A lot of questioning, a lot of investigating of this practice is going on. They aren't just sitting there and saying, leave me alone, teacher. The teachers aren't sitting there and saying, leave me alone, students. They're sitting there and they're sitting as an open invitation to the community.

[22:32]

Come and ask me what I'm doing. The students are sitting and the teachers come over and say, what are you doing? The teachers are sitting, the students come over and say, what are you doing? So both of these major lineages coming down from the sixth ancestor, these two lineages which lead to five main schools of Zen, they start out with the teachers being asked by their teachers And the students asking the teachers, and the teachers asking the teachers, everybody's asking everybody, what's going on in Zazen? What are you doing? Everybody's investigating the practice. We don't just do it, we ask questions about it. Because we don't know what it is. What is it again? What's the practice? It's making Buddha. It's... being yourself. It's unsurpassed, complete, perfect enlightenment, etc.

[23:36]

And whatever answer comes, we don't stop questioning. We keep, we know there's more we can learn by discussing this practice. And these ancestors exemplify a continuous process of investigation of the practice which is enlightenment which is the same as it isn't just that we attain enlightenment we practice it and it isn't just that we practice it we question it we study it we continuously drill holes in it we continuously go beyond it they show this The greatest ones show this. There may be lesser teachers who attained enlightenment and no further questions were asked. Or, don't bother me, I'm enlightened. So Yashinon's sitting and his teacher, Sakito, his teacher, Shurito, comes up to him and says, what are you doing sitting there?

[24:47]

And Yashan did not say, in this case, he did not say, I'm thinking about making a Buddha, or I'm making a Buddha. He didn't say that. And he didn't say what he said to the monk later. He didn't say, I'm thinking, not thinking. He said, I'm not doing anything at all. And his teacher, Shirtos, says, well, then are you idly sitting? And Yashan said, if I were idly sitting, I would be doing something. And Shirtou said, you say you're not doing anything at all. What is this not doing anything at all? Yashan said, even the 10,000 sages don't know. And then the teacher, Shirtou, expressed a verse, a poem

[25:52]

we have been traveling along singing a song side by side through all kinds of weather it doesn't matter at all we're just according with what's going on and having a real good time even the ten thousand sages don't know my friend How could hasty, impatient people know him? I'm traveling with him all these years, but I don't know who he is. Which reminds me, if I told the story again, one of the early talks I heard Suzuki Roshi give, he said, I'm not enlightened enough

[26:56]

And I thought, oh, it's too bad. But still, I'll travel along with him anyway. Next week he said, I'm Buddha. So, I'll travel along with Buddha and Buddha might tell me I'm not enlightened. Or, I can't remember who I am. or whatever. We'll keep traveling along, singing our songs side by side, asking each other questions about what we're doing. And asking each other questions about what we're doing is asking questions about making Buddha. We may not think we're asking about Buddha, but if we're asking about what we're doing, that's asking about making Buddha, because making Buddha is asking about what we're doing.

[28:03]

When we investigate our sitting together, we are investigating making Buddha. When, I think probably, that when Yashan was sitting and still with his teacher, Shirtou, Shirtou is the person who we say is the author of the merging of difference and unity. So, in this story where he's sitting and his teacher comes and talks to him, I feel like he's already been with his teacher for a while. Again, I feel like he already understands at this point.

[29:17]

But there's an earlier story of Yaoshan which looks like the first time he met Shirtro, maybe. And I'm using this story because this story, in this story, Yaoshan, our ancestor, goes to meet Shirto, and then Shirto sends him to Matsu. So I also want to show you that these two main lineages, these two lineages of Zen, in both lineages there's inquiry all the time about what is sitting, that these two founders of these two lineages, although they were living in different parts of China, They knew about each other, and they were interested in each other, and they respected each other, and they sent their students back and forth. They used their students partly to find out how the other person was teaching, and also they used the other person's teaching to help them with their students.

[30:31]

They were different. Matsu's teacher and Yashan's teacher were different And Matsu and Yaoshan were different, but they worked together at considerable distance in the Tang Dynasty. It would be almost like, you know, a teacher here sending one of her students to walk, like, to, you know, Chicago. or maybe not that far, but maybe Seattle, to ask to check out something with another teacher up there. And then the student comes back. So I have two stories like that. One is Yashan comes to see

[31:36]

and he's already been studying the precepts you know for a long time and really diligently but he still doesn't feel like he really understands the meaning of the precepts of the bodhisattva precepts he understands the form of the precepts and he engages the form but he has not yet realized that these precepts do not have a fixed form. Again, I remember in the Book of Serenity talking about Chingyuan Xingzi, a monk asks him, you know, what is the Buddha Wei in Ching Su says, what's the price of rice in Lu Ling? And then there's a verse celebrating this case which says, the path of peace has no fixed characteristics, has no fixed sign.

[32:50]

So, Yashan had been diligently working with the signs of the precepts, with the forms of the precepts, but he hasn't seen the light of the precepts. He hasn't seen the radiant meaning of the precepts, just the form. And working with the form but not seeing the light, working with the form but not seeing the formlessness, we have not seen the full potential of these precepts. Tonight, Valerian will receive the precepts. He will receive the form of the precepts. but I wonder if he will receive the light of the precepts. Now Yashan is meeting Sekito, Ishirto, saying, you know, I've studied, I know a little bit about the teaching, but I don't understand, I don't understand the essential, the essential meaning.

[34:01]

Would you please teach me? And Shirito says, being just so won't do. Not being just so won't do either. Being neither just so nor not just so won't do at all. How about you? And Yashan didn't understand. And Shirtoh saw that and said, why don't you go see Master Ma? So Shirtoh's in Hunan, and Master Ma's over in Jiangxi.

[35:06]

Yaoshan walks from Hunan over to Yangtze, which is, you know, it's a mountainous area, so he had to go over mountains and so on. But finally he arrives at Matsu's temple and says, you know, Shoto sent me, and I asked him this question. And then Matsu said, sometimes I make him raise his eyes and blink or wink. Sometimes I don't make him raise his eyes, eyebrows and wink. Sometimes raising the eyebrows and winking is right. Sometimes it's not. How about you? This time, Yashan looked and saw.

[36:11]

How about you? He looked at that place where there's no grasping or rejecting. He looked at the place where there's no fixed form of Buddha. and where there's no fixed form of Dharma and there's no fixed form of Sangha and there's no fixed form of you. He looked at himself and he saw who he really was and he understood the precepts and he understood the Dharma. And then he went back and studied with Shurto for ten years more. So I think during those ten years he was sitting and Shurto was coming up to him and saying, what are you doing? But now he was sitting in the light.

[37:15]

He wasn't sitting, grasping the form of sitting only. He was sitting and grasping the form of sitting and realizing the formlessness of the sitting. So everybody's welcome to come and ask questions, even his teacher. And when his teacher comes, he says, I'm not doing anything at all. I'm not even being a bad student. I'm not being rebellious. Go ahead, ask me. I'm not doing anything at all. Ask me a question again. Are you sitting idly? That would be doing something. You say you're not doing anything at all. What are you doing? You don't know, and I don't know either, and nobody else does either. But it's wonderful. Now would you please make a poem? And the teacher does. And so, because he told me to poem, I told you the poem.

[38:20]

So now you can tell somebody else the poem. And you can practice sitting just like the ancestors. And you can ask yourself what you're doing in your sitting. You can ask the teachers what they're doing in their sitting. You can ask your friends what they're doing in their sitting. We can investigate this sitting together and realize making Buddha. So looking at things this way, it does look like all these great founders were focused on using this practice of sitting in such a way that they both grasped it and did not grasp it. And they grasp it knowing that that was, in a sense, a mistake that they had to make in order to realize that it's not possible to grasp the sitting which is making Buddha and it's not possible to grasp making Buddha and it's not possible to get away from making Buddha.

[39:37]

There's no way to escape it. It's coming to get us. Making Buddha is going to pull us into the Buddha way. But we could miss out on that if we close our hearts to the ancestors' teaching and close our hearts to their making of Buddha and close our hearts to our making of Buddha We are making Buddha, and this making Buddha has no fixed form. The path of peace has no fixed sign. But we are all working on the path of peace. We cannot get away from it. But it's a subtle path.

[40:41]

It's easy to forget. It's easy to get distracted. And demons of boredom come and tell us to do something a little bit more graspable or to do something that you can come to an end of and, you know, have rather than realize and let go of. Attaining something and holding on to it is not the path of peace, even though the path of peace doesn't have a sign. We have to attain and let go. Attain Buddha and transcend Buddha. One of Matsu's students came to him and said, Teacher, I'm going away for a while. And Matsu said, where are you going? And the monk said, I'm going to visit Shurto.

[41:47]

I'm going to ask him about what he's doing when he's sitting. And Matsu said, be careful. Shurto's path is really slippery. And the monk said, thank you for the warning. I'll be careful. I'll practice diligently and hopefully be able to really meet him. So he traveled again, all this way, the other direction, from Jiangshi to Hunan. And he comes to meet Shirtou. And he walks in. I forgot one part. He said, when he was still with Maudsley, he said, I'll be really careful and I'm going to take my big stick with me.

[42:56]

So monks often carried walking staffs in those days, which are particularly helpful when you're climbing mountains and crossing rivers. So he took his staff all the way from Jiangxi to Hunan, and he walks into the teaching hall where Shih Tzu is. He walks into him, bows, and walks around him right away and slams his staff on the floor and says, what is it? After such a long trip, you probably want to celebrate, right? This what is it becomes another major teaching exercise for both of these schools.

[44:03]

Both schools, there's a lot of what is it going on. What are you doing? What is it? What is it? And So then Shurto says, blue heavens, blue skies, nothing but blue skies overhead. And the big strong monk with the staff didn't know what to say. And walked back to Jiangshi and said, I couldn't say anything to that guy. And Matsu said, you should go again. It's hard to believe, isn't it?

[45:05]

First of all, that he walked that far in the first place and then come back to his teacher who let him go. He loved his teacher. He wanted to go back to his teacher, help me, protect me from... And his teacher said, go back again? That's pretty far out. A lot of effort. He said, go back again. And this time, after you go in and walk around him, make two deep sighs. That's one translation. So one translation, you go in, after traveling long ways, you go in and you meet the teacher and you go, ah, ah. Another translation is, make two deep roars. Roar or sigh. So we don't know which it was, actually.

[46:09]

a roar or a sigh. So he goes in to meet Shirtou. He walks up to him and Shirtou goes, You can imagine he didn't know what to say. And he didn't. And guess what he did? He walked back to Jiangshi. And who did he tell? Of all people, he told Master Ma. Master Ma is getting some interesting information about Shirto. And Master Ma said, I told you Shirto's path was slippery. How fun. Can you imagine that? Having students who are studying with you and travel all that way to study with another teacher, and you tell them, and you know about this other teacher and respect this other teacher, how exciting that they're going to make this trip.

[47:14]

And then they come back and tell you, and then you send them again, they come back and tell you, how wonderful. These people really cared about investigating sitting meditation. Apparently this is what they're doing. They're walking through the mountains and what are they doing? They're studying seated Buddha. So the session is going to end pretty soon. During the session we're focusing on studying seated Buddha. Now when the session is over and we leave and go on pilgrimage through the valleys, over the mountains, into the cities, I hope we continue, no matter what we're doing, continue to study sitting meditation, seated Buddha. Continue to wonder, what are we doing? Wherever we are, what are we doing? With confidence that examining what we're doing, we are asking the question that the ancestors asked of Yashan.

[48:22]

How about you? How about you? How about me? What am I doing? What is my intention? What is the intention? That they keep reminding each other to look inward and see what's going on with confidence that this is the practice of sitting Buddha. Every step, be mindful and remember. How about you? Remember, this is the practice of the ancestors right here and it has no fixed form. I can't grasp it, I can't get away from it. And I'm very happy to practice this way and I feel like this is my way of repaying the kindness of these ancestors who have transmitted this teaching, that they practiced it They practice this undefiled way of practicing without expecting anything and I wish to repay their kindness by doing the same practice.

[49:33]

Taking care of the same practice. receiving the transmission of the same practice, transmitting the same practice, always different, always the same. And in fully embracing it, always going beyond it and starting over. Tonight in the ceremony, I hope we all can study the precepts. And while we're studying the precepts during the ceremony, remember the question to the precept master, Yaoshan, how about you?

[51:00]

During the ceremony, how about you? How about me? The ancestors are saying to me, how about you? I play the role of the preceptor tonight, and the ancestors are asking me while I'm playing that role, they're saying, how about you? living priest. And they're saying to Valerian tonight, while he's receiving the precepts, how about you? And maybe you don't have an answer, but Please remember that even the great Yaoshan, when Sekito asked him, how about you?

[52:07]

He didn't have an answer either. And he had to walk all the way from Hunan to Jiangxi and get asked again by another wonderful teacher. And then he could answer. But what did he say? He said, It's like a mosquito mounting an iron bull. How about you? That line has already been used. May our intention equally extend to it.

[53:05]

@Transcribed_v005
@Text_v005
@Score_94.41