I feel moved to say that when we're deluded, we're deluded. And when we're enlightened, we're enlightened. Or when there's delusion and when there's enlightenment, there's enlightenment. And then I feel moved to say, what's the difference? The difference is that when you attach to either or when you attach to delusion, it thrives. And when you attach to enlightenment, it's lost. That's the difference. Or, and there's another way that they're not different. When you don't attach to delusion, it's lost.

[01:02]

And when you don't attach to enlightenment, it's realized more fully. So in non-attachment, delusion and enlightenment are both in truth. And in attachment, delusion grows and enlightenment is lost. So when deluded, the thing to do is to practice with the delusion in such a loving way that we engage the delusion so completely that it loses its function. And in losing its function, we have enlightenment. And then again, once again, to engage it so fully that it transcends itself and is happily happy to engage, which it always is, with delusion.

[02:16]

says, when you see sights and hear sounds, like in the story of the Buddha teaching bahiya, seeing sights and hearing sounds, he says, in the seeing there will be just the seeing, just the heard. So another way to say that is, when you see sights and hear sounds, fully engaging your body and mind with that seeing and hearing. Just seeing in the seeing is just a seeing. Another way to say it is in seeing, you fully engage, fully engage seeing, fully engage hearing. And I propose that to fully engage seeing and hearing, we need to be relaxed and calm.

[03:24]

We need to be generous and careful and patient in order to fully engage. So when you do fully engage in hearing and seeing and thinking, then it's not like the moon reflected in water, or it's not like an image reflected in a mirror. It's not like that. When one side is illuminated, the other is dark. When you fully engage, when you fully love, then when one side is illuminated, the other is dark. It's not like the moon reflected in the water. It's not the moon and the reflection in the water. If the moon's illuminated, the other one's in the dark.

[04:30]

If the reflection is illuminated, the moon's in the dark. There's no here and there. There's just there. Or there's just here. There's not both. Ordinarily, living beings do not fully engage, are not wholehearted about their seeing. They see something but not wholeheartedly. So then there's the seen. Usually both are eliminated because we're not wholeheartedly involved. When you're wholeheartedly involved, either there's no you and there's just it, or there's no it, there's just you. There's no you and it. There's no you. There can be a here, but there's no there, and no in between. Or there can be a there, but there's no here. So it can just be all you or all me. You know, you're right there in my face, totally there in my face, and nobody's there but me.

[05:38]

There's no you, or there's just you and nobody else. There's just you. There's just the universe with nothing added to it. Or there's just me and there's no universe. And you might say, that sounds scary, that there would just be me and no universe. Yeah. How about there's just a universe and no you? Is that scary? But in fact, there is just a universe. and there's just you, the universe isn't in addition to you. You're not the whole universe, and the whole universe isn't you, and yet you're not in addition to it, and it's not in addition to you. In order to realize this, we have to be wholehearted. In order to be wholehearted, we need to be generous and relaxed and very careful

[06:48]

And if we're relaxed, we can be really careful. If you're tense, it's hard to really be careful. You can be a little bit careful, but if you're tense, you're careful with some things and not with others. If you're relaxed, you're careful with what you're careful with, and you're relaxed about the fact that you're not being careful with other things. You accept that. And you're patient with the discomfort of being a limited being, if there is any. Or you're the fact of discomfort, of being limited. And you're patient with the discomfort of occasionally not being limited. And you're patient with sometimes not being uncomfortable. Some people are comfortable all the time. And when they become comfortable, they get scared. They think, I must be doing something wrong. I'm comfortable. I remember one time I was feeling comfortable and I went to Suzuki Roshi and said, I'm feeling comfortable.

[07:55]

Am I missing something? And he took a piece of paper and folded it over. He said, when we practice origami, you know origami? He said, we fold the paper over, but then we press on it for a while before we make the next fold of it. You know, you can fold it and then make a fold, but it's going to last for a while. There's a force of the fold, but there's also the force of the illusion of time. The fire is kind of like saying, oh, this guy's serious. So sometimes when you make a fold, you have no problem for a while. And, you know, it's not a big effort. Once you've made the fold, you just sort of sit there with it. It's kind of not that hard. So I think, well, am I missing something? Well, just wait a while. The next day, the thing came, and I said, the next fold came.

[09:03]

Next day, things got hard. Again. But it's not always hard. But it's sometimes everything. So, fully engaging body and mind. The other is dark. This is Enlightenment. And then the next sound comes. And then time to fully engage again, to forget about the last full engagement again. But sometimes you think, no, not this. I'm not going to fully engage this.

[10:06]

This is too sick. This is too good. This is too lovely. I can't see that this lovely thing is me or that I'm it. I cannot do it. I'm going to be half-hearted about this. I am being half-hearted about this. Okay. And then again, I can be wholehearted about the half-heartedness? It's possible. In fact, it's possible. Because when you're half-hearted, in fact, you're half-hearted. And if you don't attach to it, you're fine. Is there anything you'd like to offer? Any feedback? Please. I think that I'm only me.

[11:25]

I don't feel the universe around me. I only feel me. And the other day I was with someone that is dear to me that I hadn't seen in a long time. Was it me? It was you. I wasn't going to say that. It was you. How did I feel? Excellent. I didn't expect you to guess. I didn't expect me to guess either. Now I'll just say it. So it was a couple of minutes of interchange, and yet I felt I had learned so very much from that interchange. That's my job. And you had said something about there was snow in a certain place you were. I squelched it. There were a few of the people there, like you were offering this into the conversation. Yeah, I was saying there was snow at the Zen Mountain Sair, up near Idlewild.

[12:32]

Right. Yeah. And you squelched it. I squelched it, like you were offering this into the conversation. How did you squelch it? this is this afterwards but i felt i had learned was that i i didn't pursue it i didn't think oh there was that's interesting it is interesting that there's snow where we i live in l.a you know that's an interesting thing but um i just turned it to something else you know i just turned the covers i didn't let let that flower and then there was something else i could But there was something else similar in the next 30 seconds that you had offered, and I didn't pursue, you know, I didn't let it. I noticed that. You know? I noticed it. However, I didn't blame you for it. And we're doing it together now. But somehow I didn't feel like there was other people at the dining room table that I wasn't quite ready to mention what we were doing in front of them.

[13:34]

But now since you've tipped your hand, I think I'm in trouble, you and I, being intimate. Somehow you were offering something, I was offering something, back and forth. Our timing and we're having trouble. I noticed we're a little off. We're both trying to be generous towards each other, I think. But there's generosity, okay? I think there was generosity. Maybe not. And I think there maybe wasn't. Maybe there was generosity, maybe there wasn't. But even in generosity, there's a next practice. after generosity, which is ethical discipline, that there can be a little bit of, what do you call it, excitement in that generosity, you know, so that you're generous, but you're kind of a little bit ahead of it, or like, what gift could be given, or what do I do with the gift that was given?

[14:44]

There's a little bit of uncarefulness. There can be an ethical shortcoming, even though you're doing this wonderful gift. Or even though someone's given me a gift, you have trouble being calm, calmly receiving it. See the gift, but somehow your part's hard to do, because there's, you know, whatever. So then, but that's the next step, and the next step. So now you've come back and done the next step by letting me know that you noticed what I noticed. But somehow we weren't sure we could disclose that intimacy with the people at the table. But somehow, even with the bigger group now, you realized afterwards how important it was, so you came and told us. example of being honest and this is part of your confession and repentance for that shortcoming in your attention at that moment i feel but it's also you're helping me too because i wasn't able to join you and what the way things were going there either and i felt like it was a little bit missed really meeting

[16:03]

Yes, exactly. But we were also, you know, practicing there so that you could notice it and come and tell me that. I thought I had learned a lot from that couple of minutes. You know, I really felt that. Yeah. In the future... just keep practicing with it, just keep noticing it. Well, now, so now we, so we had like, there was an attempt to be generous. We noticed some shortcomings. We confessed them. We feel a little uncomfortable about it. And now we've... We contemplate those that cause a process of action, and now we feel an aspiration. You said to keep practicing, but now we feel an aspiration to try in the future when we meet anybody, try to have this intimacy. We feel the aspiration to do that. We feel how good that would be.

[17:07]

That's part of the name you gave me, Seamless Aspiration. Seamless Aspiration. My second name. What a wonderful name. Again, we feel the aspiration, and we want to make it seamless. We feel the aspiration to seamlessness. And I said seamless aspiration, but there's kind of what I call an edge on that, because aspiration... It's hard for it to be seamless. We're recreating it. We have to keep recreating aspiration for it to be seamless, because it can break. Thank you. In reviewing our activity, the thought might occur to us of a continuous practice of wholeheartedness.

[18:31]

And then the thought might occur to us, I'm not ready for this. I can't be that. I can't live that intensely. And that thought I think I would welcome that thought of feeling this is too much. And welcoming the thought that it's too much would facilitate not being derailed by the thought this is too much, but just accept. And accepting it, then I realize the thing I just said was too much. I'm doing what I said was too much by accepting that I thought it was too much. In other words, don't be afraid of being limited. Don't be afraid of being a little guy with a big practice. Even though you do think that, we welcome such a little guy. And welcoming the little guy also welcomes the big guy.

[19:32]

And vice versa. So we generally, you know, of this... What is it? It's the practice of sudden enlightenment and transforming the mind delusion into the body of Buddha. In this practice, we recommend the big guy or the big girl. We recommend welcoming the Buddhas. Hey, Buddhas, come and help. We recommend that. Because, in fact, that's what Buddhists are. Buddhists are big beings. We cannot actually do the practice without the Buddhist teaching. Our deluded mind does not think up the Buddhist teaching. It thinks up a version of the Buddhist teaching, but it doesn't even think up a version of the Buddhist teaching without the Buddhist teaching being offered.

[20:38]

So the Buddhist teaching... And because of our past karma, we make up a small little version of it, but still, that small version, if we treat it properly, will open on to the actuality of the teaching, which is not hindered by our small take on it. It never was. We can all have a small take on the great teaching. It doesn't limit it. Another image is that enlightenment, the previous example is not like the moon reflected in the water. Another example is enlightenment is like the moon reflected in the water. So we don't want to be attached to the previous example.

[21:39]

Enlightenment is like the moon reflected in the water. The water, the little puddle of water doesn't limit the moon. It doesn't hurt the moon reflected in it. It's a lovely moon reflected in the water. And the moon is like the water. And enlightenment in you doesn't limit the enlightenment. And the enlightenment doesn't blow you to pieces. But still, the reflection of the moon in the water is not the moon. But it's nice to have the moon reflected in the water. It's also nice to look up at the moon. But when you look up at the moon, that's another reflection of the moon in your eyes. So it's not sometimes in enlightenment itself like the moon and the water, but enlightenment is like the moon and the water.

[22:44]

It is like the moon reflected in us. We are, in fact, the best so far, the best so far of reflecting enlightenment in our life. This is the best so far. Anything else you care to offer at this time? Was there something else? Roy, did you want to offer something? Did you have to? I only have one question. Did Rossi ever live as well? Did he? Yes. I don't think so. I don't think he did. I never heard about him going to a pool. I never heard of him going to a pool. Yes. Yeah, please, come up. Tell me your name again. Pat. Pat. Please sit down. back and forth between dualism and non-dualism, and I've raised a Catholic, so that's sort of my deepest fixed belief system.

[23:50]

And about a year ago, I decided I needed to go back to practicing Catholicism again. But it's like a constant flip-flop, you know. is the universe dualist or is it non-dualist? And I don't... Sometimes I get upset about it. Sometimes I say, well, I'm never going to know. But I figure that if... It seems to be both. It seems to be both. It seems to be ultimately non-dual. But superficially, it appears to be dual. And you can also have the duality of flipping back and forth between dualism and nondualism. That's another duality. But in nonduality, we're not flipping back and forth. We're always together. We're always interdependent. It's always that way. At the same time, interdependence, nonduality, interdependence implies nonduality. the non-dual, interdependent reality of the world supports beings who can imagine duality.

[24:57]

We're into it. And even if we could, in moments of enlightenment, we take a break from duality. In moments of enlightenment, although the enlightenment's reflected in our mind, where there's no you and the universe anymore. There's just the universe and there's no pat. It's just one fat universe with nobody added to it, and there's total pat relief. Or there's just pat and total acceptance. There's just pat and there's no universe. It's the big enlightenment relief. And then, another state of consciousness arises where duality is offered. And the more we practice, the more we can practice when duality is offered again. Here comes another duality. But it's met with generosity, ethics, enthusiasm, concentration, and wisdom.

[26:04]

It's welcomed with joy and ease and total compassion. And that duality There's freedom and ease with that, and then the next one. So some people would like to go into this world and stay there, but the Buddha way is to realize it and give it up and see what the next thing is offered. And what might be offered again might be something surprising, like another hit of nonduality might be offered. But also, it would be nice if the next time duality was offered, it was met again with meditation, with total compassion and wisdom again. And then when duality is met wholeheartedly, non-duality is realized. When we meet everything with our whole heart, that duality, non-duality is realized.

[27:07]

When I meet you with my whole heart, and Paul with my whole heart, and Karen with my whole heart, when I meet sickness and health with my whole heart, non-duality is realized. There's the practice. That realizes non-duality, which is According to some people, it's called happiness and fearlessness and joy and peace. The only thing I can describe as a musician, when I'm practicing a piece of music by somebody else, I know that there's a transcendental realm where that piece lives, and I try to get there. Sometimes I can get there, but sometimes I get . I know I'm not getting there, but I still assume that it's going to happen, because there are times that I do get there for maybe 30 seconds, or maybe the whole piece, occasionally.

[28:14]

But the trick is to not, for me, not get angry with myself, more often. But I know that I can get there. That's one of the tricks, is not getting angry at yourself when you don't get there. Another trick is be completely, wholeheartedly where you are. Get there. That's the destruction of In the herd, there will be just the herd. In the touched, there will be just the touched. And if you can be... When in the herd, there's just the herd, you will be in this place that you want to be. But if in the herd, to be in this place, that will hinder you being in that place that you want to be. So it's a paradox, right? It's a paradox, yeah. And there's an instruction about what to do with the paradox. The instruction is, be with the place you are if you want to be in this place of transcendence, and then be in the place of transcendence, and you'll let go of that.

[29:24]

Because if you really went to the place of transcendence, you wouldn't be able to perform the music anymore. I quite get that. If you were just in the place of transcendence, you wouldn't be able to perform the music anymore. It would just be the music. Oh, yeah. But is that right with you? Oh, yeah. That's the best place to be. Well, there's another place that's good, too. And there's just you and no performance of the music. That also could be a place that the music's performed on. So there is part of the deal, yeah. That's part of the deal is that non-duality supports the production of duality. Non-duality supports the production of something that doesn't really exist. Duality doesn't really exist. It's an illusion. Non-duality, the universe supports beings who think they're not supported by the universe.

[30:28]

The universe, which completely embraces everything, creates living beings who think they're separate from it. Mothers make kids who think they're separate from their mother. Mothers support kids who think they're separate from their kids. It's the wonder of this universe. And that's our situation. The non-dual supports the production of things that don't exist, like duality. It doesn't really exist. It just exists under certain conditions, like deluded minds. If you take away the deluded minds, there's no duality. But they create difference and duality. They do. If you take away difference, usually you don't have living beings.

[31:31]

But there's a way of life which is to fully enact delusion and realize But if you're half-hearted about your delusion, it's got you. And wholehearted doesn't mean to attach to it. Wholehearted means to participate so fully in your delusion that you can't get a hold of it. And if you don't get a hold of your delusion, you realize it's true nature. And the true nature of illusion is that it's illusion. And the true nature of illusion being illusion is that it's not illusion. Not really illusion. So, back to your music. If you can be in this place... Oh, by the way, you also said you're playing music written by somebody else. Did you say something like that? Yes, yeah. Part of what you need to realize is that the music isn't by somebody else. That's the place you want to get to, where Bach or whoever is not somebody other than you.

[32:38]

Great interpreter as they become, the mind of the composer takes over the interpreter. Exactly. You want a lesson. To some extent. Yeah. To a large extent with great people. How about totally? Yeah. Totally take over, and then you, when Bach takes over you, there'll be one kind of music, and when Bach takes over me, there'll be music. So our difference will be shown, but the best way to show it is by letting, completely welcoming the other so fully that it's not no other. And before that happens, when you still feel that it's different from you, it's uncomfortable. So again, to practice with that discomfort is part of the way to get to the place of comfort. to be patient with the sense of separation, the pain of separation. Separation is painful. And one of the reasons it's painful is that it's not true.

[33:43]

And we're grating against reality, and reality gently makes things uncomfortable for us when we don't go along with it. Reality is really nice. It lets us be deluded, and it also says, you know, you can be deluded, but I'm going to make you uncomfortable until you come home. And I don't want to make it too uncomfortable. I don't want you to get discouraged. So if you feel like, well, I don't even want to practice anymore, then reality lightens up on you, hopefully, and says, okay. Make yourself comfortable. Thanks. Appreciate that. You're welcome. Thank you. Any other feedback? How's the retreat going? Any feedback? Any fabulous? Fabulous?

[34:46]

What does that mean? Does that mean imaginary? It's like a fable? It's just retreatness. It's retreatness. Any other offerings you care to make? It's really out there. It's out there. How about in there? Is it really in there? That too. Yeah, that's right. But there is no there. Yeah, of course. Yes, it has come. That's how it's out there. It has come. Provocative. Provocative. You're provoked to come up here? You raised your hand. I invited you to come up. Here you are. This is very different. It's very new for you? Great. Newness is one of the things that reality is new. Fresh delusion. And your name?

[35:48]

Suzanne. Suzanne. Well, I'm noticing that depending on the different topics you're speaking about, I can easily... Yes. Yes. So I'm noticing when you're talking about calm and peace, I'm flowing there. And when you were talking about anger and evil, I found myself churning up. Churning up and finding examples of things in my life circumstances that I thought I could attach to those states of being. and wondering if they were real, and then going to a different place when you were talking about your growing up, realizing as a person of this generation, my generation, there is some part of me that says, when I see evil, I see injustice.

[36:49]

And is injustice a reality? And what of the circumstances that I've just generated in my own life to tell me that evil really exists? That it appears to have existed in those events that are concrete and real that I saw. Okay. It sounds very complicated. Well, let's try to make it simple in the sense that there's an appearance of injustice, okay? Injustice could also be rephrased as an appearance of unethical behavior, non-ethical behavior. I see that in myself or in someone else. Now that we've got this appearance, the question is, does it bring benefit to the situation of this appearance of injustice? It seems very concrete. So now we have an appearance of injustice that seems concrete.

[37:54]

An action. A concrete injustice, like someone being cruel. It seems actually concrete. It looks like they really are being cruel, or like I really am being cruel. It really does seem that way. So now the question is, what will benefit that situation of what appears to be concrete cruelty? So I'm proposing, I've heard from tradition, that the way to bring benefit to a situation where it seems to be a concrete injustice, that meeting that with generosity is the first step to transforming the situation in a beneficial way. And also I know from previous experience, that oftentimes when I would see solid, substantial, real injustice, when I think that that's what's going on, I would often meet that with not generosity.

[38:58]

Matter of fact, I would meet it with what seems to be concrete violence. Anger. Anger. Hatred towards injustice. That might come. I already know that pretty well. I kind of know how it works. I haven't felt that I've been very successful at it. I mean, I've been hating, but I haven't seen that it helps the injustice that much. So now I hear this other way. Bring compassion to the injustice. Number one aspect of compassion to injustice is... Let the appearance of concrete injustice be the appearance of concrete injustice. That's what the Buddha said. In the cognized, there will be just the cognized. In the cognition of concrete substance, let that be.

[40:01]

Don't say, oh, this isn't really very unjust, or it's not concrete, but it looks concrete, so let that just be that. That's an act of generosity. Now, the next step is practice justice with injustice. In other words, practice justice with the appearance of not ethics. And what are some examples of ethics? Well, one example of ethics is don't kill it. Don't kill the unjust, the injustice, or the unjust one. Don't kill her. Don't say stupid, obnoxious, horrible in just one. Like in court, they sometimes say, Mr. So-and-so accused of. They say, Mr. Wow. Rather than sleazeball, they say, Mr. accused of rape. They treat it with respect.

[41:05]

Wow, this is good. This could be beneficial. We could work something out here with this Another aspect of injustice is don't praise yourself at the expense of others. The appearance of substantial, concrete injustice, don't say, well, that's unjust and I'm better than that. Saying when you see something unjust and thinking you're better than that, you're being unjust. And so on. Don't intoxicate mind and body when you look at injustice. That's what a lot of people do. They see injustice and they take drugs. They see injustice and they feel stressed. So they take drugs so that they'll feel numb in the face of the injustice. So don't numb yourself when you see injustice. Try to stay present with it without resorting to addictions.

[42:06]

And a lot of the addictions we resort to when we see injustice are other forms of injustice. One of the addictions that some people have is to slander injustice. We should respect injustice. Respect it. It is something to, it is dangerous. The appearance of injustice, especially when it's solid, that's a dangerous thing. So first, be generous towards injustice. Next, be careful of it. If you're not careful of the appearance of injustice, Now, if you ignore it or if you attach to it, it could cause great harm. But if we meet injustice, this is a proposal, if we meet injustice with compassion, number one, generosity. Generosity towards sleazeball and not stupid, unjust. Be generous towards that. Be careful of it. be just with it, be ethical with it, and be patient with it.

[43:12]

This brings benefit to the situation of the appearance of substance. Now, I'm ready to generate some energy here, some enthusiasm about the previous practices, plus some enthusiasm about entering into actually understanding what's going on. I should be very calm with this injustice, not so that I'm tranquilized and like unknown, not that kind of calm, not an intoxication numb, a calmness, an openness to the injustice. So I can face it and stay with it and take care of it so that I can cure it, and not so that I can cure it, so that it can be cured. with wisdom, which understands the injustice and then helps everybody around understand it.

[44:17]

And when we understand it, injustice will be cured with Buddha's wisdom. But Buddha's wisdom towards injustice, which is saving beings from injustice, first we have to love the injustice before we can save it. We have to love beings who seem to be being unjust, and we have to love the beings who seem to be treated unjustly. We need to love them, not like. Love. Welcome. Be careful, be patient, be enthusiastic, be calm. Now we can welcome them and understand that understanding beings are liberated from injustice. We have to wholeheartedly engage the injustice Otherwise, we make it real by half-heartedly engaging. We already think it's real.

[45:18]

We actually don't need to make it real. And we don't make it less real. We realize the reality of the situation. And the teaching here is that the practice which leads to the awakening to the reality of it will then be applied to the situations. But before we realize we get already benefited by generosity, being just with the unjust, just like there's justice brought to the unjust, right? There's an accusation of injustice, and we want to bring justice to the injustice. So when somebody lies and we want to bring truth, somebody kills and we want to bring non-killing, to killing, which we have this problem right now, right, about killing people who kill. We want to bring non-killing to killing, or do we want to bring killing to killing? I sort of am in the park of bringing compassion, justice, non-killing to killing.

[46:22]

Generally. Maybe there could be some exception. That's part of the openness, that there could be some exception. Part of ethics is to be open to that we shouldn't be rigid about ethics. Part of justice is to not be adhering to what we think is justice. So we bring those who we think are unjust, this practice is to bring justice to them, to practice the precepts of ethics with them. The legal system should be a system of ethics applied to all living beings. Applying ethics to situations where there's a question of ethics. But before we apply the ethics, first of all, we're generous. First of all, we are compassionate. Then we apply ethics, which are the next step in compassion, and so on. Thank you for coming forth.

[47:25]

Thank you for telling me that you've been provoked. Now we could have time for you to see if you could practice meditation while you eat. How long would you like to practice meditation while you eat? Forty-five minutes or an hour? Roy votes for an hour. Is that okay? An hour. Okay. So you're welcome to come back. I have some very interesting things to tell you. Don't turn in 45 minutes. I have one thing. Please come back, or you can come back earlier and sit. You're welcome to come back and sit. Thank you.

[48:16]

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