On Sunday, I brought up what is sometimes called the Bodhisattva vow. It's a vow to realize Buddhahood for the sake of all beings realizing Buddhahood. or the vow to realize unsurpassed Buddha way so that all beings would realize unsurpassed Buddha way. And as I also mentioned, maybe at the end of this meeting today, we might chant the four vows.

[01:08]

And the fourth vow is the Buddha way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. And I've heard that many people who are practicing, have practiced at Zen Center now and in the past, have told me that they really, they're not actually vowing to realize enlightenment. I usually just say, I'm not vowing to realize enlightenment. And I understand that they mean, I'm not vowing to realize unsurpassed, complete, perfect enlightenment. And even lesser enlightenments, they're also not necessarily a vowing to realize enlightenment. Oh, I forgot to bring it, but one of the students here went through a ceremony of receiving bodhisattva precepts in a Korean lineage, I believe from the well-known teacher Kusan, which means nine mountains.

[02:48]

And the precepts are quite similar to ours in this lineage. The ten great, the ten major Bodhisattva precepts in our sixteen Bodhisattva precepts, they have the same ten, and they also have taken refuge in that lineage. But I was interested to see that on that document which was given to her, it says... I vow to practice these precepts and I also vow to realize Buddhahood for the welfare of all beings." And she received that. And there was a place for the person receiving it to sign. And she did not sign it when she received it. But recently some Korean nuns came here to visit. And she showed them the document and they somehow noticed that she had it signed.

[03:56]

So she signed it and they witnessed it. They wrote their names as witnesses. She signed that vow. I vow to realize Buddhahood for the welfare of all beings. In this intensive, one story about the history of this intensive is that we originally thought it would be nice to have such an intensive where experienced people, experienced practitioners of Zen Center would come back to Zen Center and do an intensive kind of tune-up we imagined that people who had already done Tassajara practice periods would come to Green Gulch and do a short practice period together. So that they would come and they would already know how to do Oryoki practice.

[05:00]

They would already know how to follow the schedule skillfully. They'd also already have a very deep meditation practice and so on. But it didn't turn out that way. A lot of new people came. However, now we've been doing this for maybe 16 years. Somebody said we started in 96. I don't know if that's true. Somebody thinks it's 97. So if it's 97, then that would be like 15 years. Maybe at the end there will be a closing ceremony and Eno will say, this is the closing of such and such a number of the intensive. But over those years, the group has become more experienced and older.

[06:04]

So now... Most of the people in this room probably have received the Bodhisattva precepts. Could I ask the people who have received the Bodhisattva precepts to stand up? Could I ask the people who have received the Bodhisattva precepts to sit down? Could I ask the people who have not received the Bodhisattva precepts to stand up? Thank you. Please sit down. So most of the people, it looks like, have received the Bodhisattva precepts. And I think most of you have received them in the lineage coming through Japan, through Dogen Zenji, and Keizan Zenji, and Shogaku Shunryu Daigusho, most of you.

[07:23]

In the ceremony that we perform here these days, there's quite a bit of similarity to the ceremony we did when he was alive, when the founder, Suzuki Roshi, was alive. Quite similar ceremony. And there's a lot of similarities in the ceremony we do and in the one that Dogen Zenji wrote. And there's a lot of similarity in our ceremony to Indian Mahayana instructions about how to receive bodhisattva precepts. And in the ceremony we do, we do not say, I vow to realize Buddhahood for the welfare of all beings.

[08:32]

We don't say that bodhisattva vow in the ceremony, which you may have noticed. However, we do say in the ceremony, from now on, even after realizing the Buddha body, even after realizing Buddhahood, that comment is in the text. And at that point, Many of us, when we say that, we might think, hmm, attaining the Buddha body? How many are there? Attaining the three Buddha bodies? Until that time of attaining the Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya Buddha bodies, I will continue to practice these precepts, and even beyond that point. So there is sort of, what do you call it, a, what do you call that? Anyway, a gesture towards complete Buddhahood in the ceremony.

[09:34]

But there are some other ceremonies which we have records of where the bodhisattva vow is said in some detail. And I thought in my tell you about one of those ceremonies and even consider perhaps performing it. And again, I asked you over and over on Sunday, how are you with this bodhisattva vow? Which is, there's a wish that arises in ordinary living beings, sometimes a wish to realize the Buddha way.

[10:41]

Realizing the Buddha way is synonymous with realizing Buddhahood. There is a wish to realize it, or as someone said, to celebrate it. And then that wish to realize Buddhahood for the welfare of all beings is, that thought is called the thought of enlightenment or bodhicitta. And then that thought can be put into a verbal form as a vow. So the bodhisattva vow is a verbal expression, which is expressed verbally, but also mentally and physically at the same time. But it is verbal. And it comes from this bodhicitta. And it can be done in public. And for it to have full efficacy, it is done in public.

[11:43]

It is done with a teacher in a sangha. Just briefly at this point, I would say that there also are instructions for people who cannot find a teacher, a human teacher. It's usually recommended to do it with a human teacher. But if you can't find a human teacher, it is also allowed that you would do it in the presence of a statue or some other kind of painting of a Buddha or Bodhisattva. It's best to have a human teacher. That's the most recommended way. And other witnesses, too, to make the vow more auspicious, more likely, more conducive to success.

[12:49]

Many of you have witnessed and gone through, as we just said, the bodhisattva precept ceremony, this lineage, and I brought some pamphlets for anybody who would like to read about the ceremony. I have some pamphlets here which you may help yourself to. If there's not enough, we can make more. These pamphlets tell the ceremony with a little commentary. And there's a slight difference in the way that this pamphlet is written from the way we do the ceremony now, in that the homages to the bodhisattvas and buddhas, or buddhas and bodhisattvas, are, we used to say homage to Dharmakaya, Virochana. Now we just say Virochana, Dharmakaya. We don't say homage anymore, but that's one difference. Otherwise, it's pretty much the same way we do the ceremony now.

[14:04]

So I've heard that when the Buddha was teaching, the historical Buddha Shakyamuni was teaching that He had five students originally, and all five of those students became enlightened. Not the same enlightenment as Buddha, but they became authentically enlightened. They understood selflessness, and they became what are called arhats after studying with the Buddha for not very long. They were already highly evolved yogis. They had great concentration powers. So when they listened to the Buddha, they could really listen. And so in a short period of time, like in a matter of, I think, just a month or so, all five became...

[15:29]

thoroughly awake and liberated. And after that, they became ordained. They joined... They sort of formally became Buddha's students and became monks. And they said they wanted to. And the ordination originally was very simple. The Buddha just said, Ihe bhikkhu, which means come, monk. And they came, and that was the ordination. And they were already arhats. So you don't have to be an arhat to get ordained, but they were. And then he told them that they could go now and ordain other people. But he changed it a little bit.

[16:42]

He said, when you ordain other people, you don't say the same thing I did. You don't just say, come monks. He said, for you, you will have them take refuge in Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. So that was the way they got ordained. And then, as things progressed... they ran into some difficulties. And these difficulties that they ran into as the other people were trying to ordain, when the Buddha ordained people, he didn't seem to have any problems because almost everybody he ordained originally was enlightened. But when other people ordained non-enlightened people, they ran into some complications. which are described in a text called the Mahavagga, which is part of... We have three baskets in the early teaching, both in Sanskrit and Pali.

[17:45]

It's called Tripitika, three baskets. One basket is the basket of scriptures, Sutra, Pitika. Another one is the... the basket of scholarship by the Buddhist disciples called the avidharma-pitika. The third one's called the discipline basket, vinaya-pitika. And in the vinaya-pitika, you have the Mahavagas, one of the books there. So... So one of the stories in there about ordination is that a monk became ordained. A person became ordained. And after the person became ordained, was ordained by one of Buddha's disciples,

[18:50]

he behaved in such a way that the other monks, including perhaps the person who ordained him, noticed that his behavior was not appropriate to being a monk. So they said, what you're doing is not appropriate, sir, venerable sir, it's not appropriate. And he said, why do you say that? He said, I didn't ask to be ordained, so why are you criticizing me? If I'm not behaving like a monk's supposed to behave, what's the problem? I didn't ask to be ordained. You ordained me, but I didn't ask to, so why criticize my behavior? And then they told the preceptor, and the preceptor told the Buddha, and the Buddha said, oh, in the future, you shouldn't ordain people unless they ask.

[19:56]

After they ask to be a monk, then if they don't do what they ask to do, then you might be able to say, well, this is not what you signed up for, right? You wanted to do this, right? Yes. And I, yeah, I just recently read about that. So the Buddha, he said, not only when people, when you think of ordaining people, don't ordain them unless they ask. Like, you know, don't give them the three treasures to go for refuge in unless they ask to receive the three treasures to go for refuge in. If they ask, and usually ask three times, then you can ordain. In the stories that I've read about the Buddha ordaining people, these people became enlightened and then after they're enlightened they say, may I go for refuge in you? And the Buddha said, come monk.

[20:59]

Actually, before he said come monk, he said, do you have the three requisites? Or do you have the requisites? The requisites were monks' robes and bowls. But the first people, he didn't even ask them for the requisites because they hadn't been established yet. They asked to become part of his order, part of his I go, what? What? His group, which didn't have until that moment. And he said, come on. And told them a different method. And then he found out this problem. And so he said, have them ask. And then there was another. So there was another one. And there's many of them. But I'm just telling you, maybe one more or two more. There was a Brahmin who noticed that sumptuous meals were provided on a regular basis for Buddha's disciples, for Buddha's monks.

[22:08]

And so he thought, I think I'll become a Buddhist monk. I don't know if he asked, but he did become a Buddhist monk. Brahmins are sort of the highest level of the caste system in India, right? But not all Brahmins are well-fed. And this Brahmin, I don't know if he's well-fed, but he noticed that Buddhist monks were very well-fed, so he decided to become a monk, and they ordained him. And then... the meals became irregular and not very good. And he started to complain and actually said, is this going to continue? And the monk said, well, I don't know. He said, well, if they do, I'm quitting.

[23:14]

And the monk said, well, this is not appropriate. Did you become ordained to satisfy your belly? And he said, yes, I did. And one of our dear ancestors at Zen Center, Kadagiri Roshi, He humbly said that he became ordained because he thought he could get better food at his Zen monastery. He was like a teenager right at the end of the Second World War. There wasn't much food around. I don't know if that was true, but that's what he said. That was his original motivation is to get some food at the temple. And then he got interested in other things later. So anyway, yeah that's why they used to go to Tassajara so yeah we have good food and now we even have a good website yeah didn't used to have that stuff

[24:31]

So the Buddha said, well, we should make clear to people that they're not getting ordained to get food for their stomach. And then there was another one... Anyway, gradually they started to add in precepts. These, you know, also like... They also... You know, about clothing and things like that. They didn't... People didn't know beforehand. Oh, another one was... They told people about some of the other austerities involved in being a monk. And then this one person got ordained. And he said, if you told me beforehand, I wouldn't have gotten ordained. Then somebody else, so then they started to tell people beforehand. And then some people said, I don't want to get ordained then. And the strange thing in one text I read is that the Buddha said, don't tell them beforehand. If you tell them beforehand, they'll argue.

[25:40]

But once they're ordained, and then they find out, they'll be at peace with it. But things have changed since that time. But anyway, these regulations accumulated in response to problems. And gradually, they settled on an ordination method for ordaining people into the order. One ordination instruction I saw I thought was interesting. Maybe you heard that when they ordained monks they had like sometimes for men 253 in some precepts and for women even more. But in an ordination procedure that I read they only told people the first four which were the first four are called defeats.

[26:42]

They're precepts which, if you violate them, you're asked to leave the community. And then in the ceremonies, they will tell you the other ones later, the more detailed ones. The four, I believe, are number one, killing, but killing a human. Number two, stealing. Number three, sexual misconduct, which for monks and nuns was, you know, sexual activity of actual physical nature. And number four was lying. And the lying they're talking about was basically saying that you're enlightened. So you weren't supposed to say you were enlightened. So what about enlightened people? just to make sure that they didn't violate that precept. Enlightened people also weren't supposed to say it.

[27:44]

Those are the four. These are ceremonies which originally, again, the ordination ceremony was come monk, male or female. Come. Secondarily, this other ceremony developed over a long period of time where precepts were set up The ordination that we do at Zen Center, the bodhisattva ordination, we don't say the bodhisattva vow. We use kind of the form of a precept initiation as a form of entering the bodhisattva path. But there's other ways of entering where it's not so much emphasis on the precepts, but more emphasis on the vow. It's just for you to know about. I'm not suggesting we change the form of our ceremony, but I think I might offer you some exposure to this other type of a ceremony.

[29:00]

Another thing I'd like to say at this time is that there is this Mahayana scripture called the Samdhi Nirmacana Sutra, which some of you are familiar with and some of you are not. But in that scripture, there's a chapter where Maitreya Bodhisattva, the future Buddha, is asking the Buddha questions. And at the beginning of the chapter, Maitreya Bodhisattva asked the Buddha, based on On what? And abiding in what does a bodhisattva practice tranquility and insight? And I would rephrase the question and say based on what

[30:22]

And abiding in what does a bodhisattva practice zazen? And the answer in the citra is based on an abiding in an unwavering resolution to expound the doctrinal teachings, and to become unsurpassed, authentically and completely enlightened. Based on that unwavering resolution, bodhisattvas practice meditation. And in the sutra it's called, you know, Tranquility and Insight.

[31:25]

In the Zen tradition, we often say Zazen, sitting meditation. When a bodhisattva practices sitting meditation, what is the sitting meditation based on? What are they abiding in? This says they're abiding in that vow. to expound the doctrinal teaching, in other words, to expound conventional teachings, conventional realities. You know, like the Buddhist teaching, the Buddha's written teaching, but also all the other conventionalities of daily life, for example, precepts of behavior in a community. Or bodhisattva vows. So the Buddha actually in response to the question by Maitreya is actually expounding doctrinal teachings in response to the question.

[32:37]

And when Maitreya asks the question, Maitreya is expounding conventional teachings by the question. He's using conventional designations. He's using words to teach people in the form of a question. And the Buddha is using words, conventional teachings, to show people how to practice meditation in the Bodhisattva tradition. So they're using conventional teachings to say that bodhisattvas practice meditation. For example, they take the physical form of sitting as a conventional teaching. They use the shape of the body, the appearance of the body, the conventional thing of a body, they use a body to teach.

[33:38]

They use words to teach. They use words to teach the teachings. They use the body to teach the teachings. And then they want to teach how to understand these conventional things so that you will become enlightened. But they vow to use these conventional things And also they vow to realize enlightenment. But included in that, I'm suggesting they're using these conventional things to... They vow to use the conventional things to fulfill the vow of realizing enlightenment. They use conventional things to realize the ultimate, to realize enlightenment. Part of the teaching which I want to offer to you is once we realize the basis upon which these teachings are given and meditated upon, then we also apply these teachings to the meditation.

[34:51]

And so the sutra teaches that meditation practice has three characteristics. It has a other dependent characteristic. It has an imagined characteristic. And it has a reality characteristic. So this is conventional teaching to understand all conventional things and realize their conventionality, but also their ultimate truth, which is one of the characteristics of all conventionalities. That was... Oh, I think I'll take one more step on that.

[35:56]

My understanding today is that the realm of consideration, the realm of practice, the way of dealing with practice that is described in what we chanted at noon service yesterday. And the chant is called the Self-Receiving and Employing Samadhi. The realm described in those words, those conventional words, describing a rather unconventional sounding place where the enlightenment of all things is working with the enlightenment of all things. That realm is the realm that bodhisattvas who practice meditation, that's the realm where they're practicing meditation. It describes the other dependent world where they practice meditation. And in that other dependent world, there is this interdependence of all things, and also there is the appearance of a lack of interdependence.

[37:11]

That's the imagined characteristic of things, and that's what we see and perceive. So we're reading in that text a description of the way we're practicing, of the way bodhisattvas practice, which is not appearing in perceptions. But bodhisattvas, with that understanding, deal with their perceptions in such a way that they no longer cling to their perceptions as reality and realize the freedom from the imagined pattern by the way they work with their meditations. Perhaps if you look back at what I just said in a few weeks, you'll understand perfectly. And now I'd like to stop and see if you, first of all, have any response to this issue that bodhisattvas are based on and abide in this vow to use the conventional

[38:26]

teachings and realize perfect enlightenment as the basis for their practice in general but in meditation in particular. And if you have any response to the issue of this vow and where do you stand on that and how do you deal with this proposal that this is what bodhisattvas do. One more thing I want to say is that that I would sometimes say that if you have, put it this way, all bodhisattvas have this vow. There seems to be agreement on this. All bodhisattvas have this vow. But not everybody who has this vow is a bodhisattva. So, for example, if today I have that vow, if today I have that wish, and today I make that vow, I'm not quite necessarily according to... Not everybody would agree at that first time I think it that I'm a bodhisattva.

[39:30]

But if one takes care of that vow, one becomes a bodhisattva. All bodhisattvas have taken care of... have and have taken care of that vow for some time. So it's a necessary condition for bodhisattvas, but not sufficient. Everybody, all the different things I've read say it's a necessary condition, but not all of them say it's sufficient. And I'll just say, again, I said stop, but I'll say a little bit more, that in this, that the Mahayana, which is the path of the bodhisattvas, But not everybody who is on the Mahayana path is a bodhisattva. All bodhisattvas are on the Mahayana, but some people who have the bodhisattva vow have not yet completely realized, have not become bodhisattvas, but they're still Mahayana Buddhists.

[40:37]

So you can be on the Mahayana path even if you're not yet a bodhisattva. All bodhisattvas are on the path, and everybody who wants to be a bodhisattva is on the path. But not everybody who wants to be a bodhisattva is a bodhisattva. But some people would say that even the people who just want to be bodhisattvas are bodhisattvas. Or some people would say, everybody that wants to be a bodhisattva will be a bodhisattva. And somebody else would say, even people who do not want to be bodhisattvas are going to be bodhisattvas. So within this thing called, looking at the Mahayana as a movement in the history of humanity, there's a universal version, a universalist version of Mahayana. And among the universal version of Mahayana, there's a range of strength of that universality.

[41:42]

To make it simple, there's a strong and a weak version. But of course, there's also a middle version too, and so on. So again, within the Mahayana movement, there's a universalist school, but there's also a non-universalist school. The universalist school is very influential in Japanese Soto Zen, because Dogen Zenji was a devotee of the... Lotus Sutra. And the Lotus Sutra is strong, universal. Lotus Sutra says everybody is going to become a Bodhisattva. And all the Bodhisattvas are going to become Buddhas. That's the Lotus Sutra. even the people who seem to be saying, actually, I'm an arhat, I'm enlightened, this is good enough for me, even those people are going to be bodhisattvas, are really bodhisattvas, and are going to eventually realize it and become buddhas.

[42:44]

That's a strong universalist. Another universalist thing is, not everybody is a bodhisattva, but everybody really should be. That's another view within that you can find if you look at the whole sea of Mahayana teachings that we have. Sometimes you find that statement. That would really be good if everybody would become Buddha. But there's another realm of Bodhisattva literature which really values Bodhisattvas, thinks they're really great and tells about their practices but does not say everybody's going to choose this path And it values other paths to enlightenment. And there are other paths. And the Arhat is an example of an enlightened being and that could be seen as another path.

[43:48]

And in some Mayan teachings, the teachings for arhats and the teachings for bodhisattvas are identical, except, not identical, they're very similar. The main way they differ is in terms of their vows. One vows to become completely liberated from delusion, The other vows to realize Buddhahood in order to liberate all beings. But they used basically the same teachings and the same practices. Some little differences. I think I can mention briefly the bodhisattvas need some special practices so that they don't give up the path to Buddhahood and take the other one.

[44:54]

because the other one's really very good. I mean, enlightenment which liberates you from all suffering is, of course, a great aspiration for a living being. Bodhisattvas need special practices not to derail the long course of evolution by cashing in early. So I find it refreshing to hear that there's Mahayana scriptures which teach that the bodhisattvas are... that the bodhisattva path is not for everyone.

[46:01]

Now after I get refreshed by that, then I feel a little uncomfortable because that path then could be called elitist if it's not for everybody. That's the problem with that. No matter how you look at the bodhisattva path, it really seems to be heroic. And so after we find out it's heroic, people say, well, I don't feel very heroic. And then someone says, well, you may not feel that way, but really deep down you're a hero. You are going to become heroic. And you're going to be like a leader of heroes eventually. But the path of individual enlightenment is also quite heroic. Just the bodhisattva path is even more heroic. So now I think I can, again, get back to where I said before. Any response to all that? I mean, any other response?

[47:08]

Yes? Well, I'm interested in this threshold between the arhat and the bodhisattva, and I agree it's dependent on the vow, but I'm sort of curious for the arhat, the nature of a personal enlightenment. And I guess I'm imagining that they have some insight into the other dependent. And I'm just wondering, in terms of logic, if you had, in my mind, my imagination, if you had that insight into the other dependent, how can you sort of shut off not being dependent on separate beings around you? How can you be in a state of public dependence and have no sense of self anymore, but not acknowledge that you're the dependence that arises with separate beings? I share that with you. I would imagine that the Arhats understand what you just said.

[48:14]

They understand it much better than you and I do. they really understand it. And understanding it so well that they will, that when they die, according to this tradition, that when they die, without special precautions, they will not be reborn. Now you might say, well, if you knew you were interdependent with everybody, wouldn't you want to be reborn innumerable times in order to become a Buddha to help them? Would you want to stay in the world of suffering to help people forever? Well, apparently some people who understood what you just said, they didn't say no to that. They weren't in that space anymore of thinking like that. I mean, they didn't make that vow in the first place. They didn't ask to be a bodhisattva in the first place. They signed up for personal liberation and they realized it. And what you said, I think they would understand this, what you're just saying.

[49:20]

They would understand their interdependence with all beings. There would be a compassionate presence in the world as long as they lived. But they would have... Their understanding would uproot the processes which create... birth in the confined realm of karmic consciousness. They wouldn't have transformed the roots into Buddhahood, but they would have transformed them enough so that they would no longer project karmic consciousness. And without special vows to overcome the the consequences of their enlightenment, which are a freedom which does not have any rebirth, they wouldn't have rebirth. That would be one story. But they would have this understanding, you say, they would care about other beings. They wouldn't get to that place in the first place if they didn't care about other beings.

[50:24]

I mean, every day they're going to beg, you know, to help, to have a relationship with their supporters. They're respecting their... they're listening to their teacher, they're practicing compassion and then they become wise too. So people like that and lesser people, people who are close to that, are highly valued living beings. Very dignified, kind, patient, honest, just wonderful creatures in the world. If you insulted them, they would just come back with abundant love and kindness. These are great beings. These arhats in the neighborhood of arhatships are great beings. But they don't necessarily have bodhisattva vow. Some people who are not so great have bodhisattva vows. Who have a much lesser understanding of what you're talking about, like us, have bodhisattva vows.

[51:30]

And if we understood as well as our hearts do, we would have our vows to protect us from slipping into checking out of the world of suffering by the understanding, not trying to get out of it anymore, just not thinking in those terms, completely free of those terms of in and out, birth and death. Completely free of birth and death. They're free of birth and death. Bodhisattvas... vow to not become free until everybody's free. The power of the vow keeps them in the realm, in that realm. Even after they have as good an understanding as our hearts. It's curious to me that volition plays such a key role at that stage of development still. for the arhat and the bodhisattva. Even though they've had that realization of selflessness, there's still the power of volition at that point. The power of vow. And both of their vows were done in the presence of their teachers and their sandra.

[52:36]

Both of their vows Bodhisattva vows are different from the... In the Buddha, in the early tradition, the Buddha made vows. The Buddha told people in this conventional world of the vows she made in the past, and they sound like Bodhisattva vows. But I haven't heard that his Arhat students made those kind of vows. He did make these Bodhisattva vows in many different ways in previous lives, he said. Yes and yes. How do we understand Dogen saying that once you become enlightened, one person gets enlightened, everything else is enlightened at the same time. And then it would matter if you're coming back or not because everybody is enlightened. Dogen says, yeah, when there's a Buddha, when Buddha wakes up, everybody's saved. Yes, that there's that side of it.

[53:38]

And then Buddha, everybody's saved because now there's a Dharma in the world. And the Buddha teaches. And people study the Dharma. Right? And then they, and some of them become personally liberated and others sign up for the Bodhisattva path. But when there's a Buddha, everybody is saved, right? Everybody's enlightened, right? But if they don't practice it, and the Buddha explains how to practice it, so they'll realize it. And when they realize it, everybody's enlightened, and then they teach everybody how to practice to realize it. The practice makes the difference between not realizing enlightenment and realizing enlightenment. The practice, like somebody said on Sunday, I like to say celebrate rather than realize because realize makes it kind of like rigid. So you celebrate yourself into realization. You celebrate the dharma into realization. Yes?

[54:40]

I want to be a clarified question. I think I heard you say that arhats overcome karmic consciousness? Yep. And so I'm wondering, and that's because they vowed for personal liberation. And what is current consciousness for Bodhisattva? So, karmic consciousness, when you meditate with karmic consciousness, when you use karmic consciousness along with the karmic consciousness meditations, you could be doing that in order to become liberated from karmic consciousness, and arhats are freed from karmic consciousness. However, their karmic consciousness has not yet been completely transformed into a Buddha. But Bodhisattva is not karmic. Bodhisattvas also have karmic consciousness, but they vow to transform their karmic consciousness into Buddhahood. So it's possible to work with karmic consciousness in such a way as you become free of it, where it's no longer a problem.

[55:48]

Which is, like, pretty good. And you still have a karmic consciousness so you can talk to people and go to the zendo and have meals. But you're not confined by it. You're free of it. And you can be a big help to them so they can learn that too. Bodhisattva's keep that going. After that point, they keep going a long time to completely transform all the rest, all the base, all the basis of karmic consciousness, completely transform it through the bodhisattva practices into the Buddha, which is many, many enlightenment practices after that self-liberating, I should say, liberation from self. It's not self-liberating. Freedom from the idea of self. Our hearts realize that. Was there anything else?

[56:54]

Yes? I don't know if I can express this, but I... took great interest in your latest book, and I felt it gave me an approach to reading in Yogacara. Good. Then I went back and looked at the Yogacara exposition, and I was quite... I mean, coming from the lotus, it goes so low that you go into the somewhere in the top. But they talk about the Ichantikas, or the people who can never become enlightened, meaning of a child. And that was like being hit with a big stick. Because this is not part of Dogen Sodo... Lotus Sutra.

[58:00]

It's not part of the Lotus Sutra. No, no, I know it... I'm saying, I'm adding, yeah. But, I mean, but what do we do... What about the itchamkita? If there are actually people who cannot realize... enlightenment or realize that they are enlightened, which is a shock to me. Yes, so I guess you're wondering, is it true that there are some beings who cannot? Well, that is part of the Yogacara understanding. I agree that it is said that it's part of the Yogacara understanding, but the Yogacara is not just that teaching of Yajantaka.

[59:07]

It's not just that. But somehow that teaching has not been refuted It has not been refuted. It stands, I think, as a... What do you call it? I would say it stands as what we call a koan. What does that mean that people who are studying Buddha's teaching and then studying Mahayana Buddhism which is in accord with the Heart Sutra and everything, what does the idea of somebody cannot attain Buddhahood, what does that idea mean in the context of the Heart Sutra? Because the Yogacara people accept the Heart Sutra. So in emptiness, There are no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind, no color, no sound, no smell, no touch, no taste, no enchantikas.

[60:15]

But that doesn't mean we deny eye, ear, nose, tongue, and enchantika. We deal with them. We practice with them. So we have to practice with this proposal that somebody's not going to be able to join this program, this course, this Buddha way. They're not going to be able to successfully do it. This is a great con. Is there somebody like that? If somebody says so, who says so? I don't know if... I don't know, for example, the founders of this so-called Yogacara school, Asanga and Vasubandho, I don't know if they... I can't say right now, Asanga said such and such about that. I would be happy if somebody could see if they could find any statement by Asanga or Vasubandho about this issue. But even if they refute it, still somebody maybe that deserves respect has said, here, deal with this issue.

[61:30]

So it's kind of like, deal with this issue. We also have the issue of that Buddhism arose in a country that says that devalued women relative to men. What do we do with that? What do we do with the Buddha being said to have said that, you know, if you do this, you won't be reborn as a woman. If you do some good thing, you won't be reborn. What do we do with that? I think you're saying, I have a problem with this Ichantika thing. I feel comfortable with the Lotus Sutra teaching. I have a problem with this. can you study a teaching which somehow allows, doesn't just like say, that's totally wrong, just, but to say something, to reject something entirely is a little bit, that's kind of Echanta-like.

[62:35]

It's kind of like, so how can we hold this issue, this question, is there anybody who's not, who's incapable, how can we hold that in a way that will be beneficial? That's what I would say at this point. and maybe a Vasubandha or a Sangha has some way of dealing with it that would help us meditate on it. I haven't heard anybody say that the Buddha... that there was any being that Buddha didn't care about. I haven't heard anybody say that. So, are there some beings that the Buddha would say cannot be enlightened, but, you know, like, are there some... are there some ants that cannot be enlightened? You know? Well, we say, well, ants can't be enlightened, they have to become human first, someone might say.

[63:36]

But I haven't heard a definitive statement by Buddha saying ants can't become humans. There are stories of... Buddhist tells... supposedly told stories of being animals in past life, being a rabbit, right? So the Buddha didn't say rabbits can't be Buddhas. But what does it mean when he's... when we have the story that Buddha says, I was a rabbit and I gave my... I gave my body to feed a noble practitioner. What does that mean? That an animal could be generous and that the... the ability of a living being, whether human or non-human, to be generous, is a seed of Buddhahood. What does that mean? And is there somebody who has no seeds of Buddhahood? Is there some kind of living being that has no seeds of Buddhahood? Is that possible? And Ichantika might not even be a human, right? Might be some other kind of living being that's not even a human, but someone's saying, they do not have the Buddha seed.

[64:42]

I don't know. I don't know about that. I just don't know. Okay? Now here's another thing I don't know. I don't know at what point in the embryological process you have a living being. I don't know. And I'm not a... I'm not a thorough scholar, but all the studies I've done and haven't found someplace in any Buddhist scripture that says at this point in the embryological development there's a living being. And before that there isn't. A sperm isn't a living being. An egg isn't a living being. A fingernail isn't a living being, in a certain sense. But at a certain point, you have a living being. You know, when you have sense organs, like, my understanding at this time, if I get enlightened in a new way, that'll be a new way.

[65:43]

But my understanding is that sperms don't have sense organs. And eggs don't have sense organs. So they don't have a way of interacting with the environment. they're servants of a living being. But when they get together, at a certain point, the result of their union develops sense organs, and the sense organs are the way that the living being starts to interact with the environment and consciousness arise. I don't know when that starts. And I have no text which says, so I don't, I'm not, I haven't spent a lot of time, very little time, understanding what is Ichantaka. And there's many things I don't know. And I would just say also that people who have studied much more than me say, it seems, it seems that there's very few things that we can say with certainty about Mahayana Buddhism.

[66:44]

You can say a lot about Mahayana Buddhism, of course, but with... Well, some of these people say, yeah, I think you can say a few things with certainty. For example, here's an example of something you can say with some certainty. There's a lot of people in China, Korea, Japan, and Southeast Asia, and Tibet, who identify themselves as Mahayana Buddhists. And we can be certain of that, that that's been going on for quite a while. And that it has happened in the recent past. Like, you know, a moment ago. And that now, some people in those countries, and now in the West, identify themselves as minor. We can be certain of that. But we don't know, these people don't know who in India did it.

[67:51]

We don't know. Mahayana Buddhism doesn't seem to have been very successful in India, even though it arose there. And another thing you can be certain about, I think, is that up till this time, we have almost no information, no evidence of Mahayana Buddhism other than the texts. other than Mahayana texts, we have no evidence that anybody practiced Mahayana Buddhism before the fifth century. So anyway, but even, and so in some ways it's nice because people with good imaginations now can say quite a bit about Mahayana Buddhism. Yes? Yes. It seems to me in the West that there's a lot of attraction to meditation for personal, for like stress reduction or improvement, and that there's maybe even a majority of the people who are drawn to meditation

[69:10]

drawn to that kind of initial sense of relaxation or inclusion of some kind. And we have this other offer. And I'm wondering, is it our responsibility to convert people to this greater vehicle? Do we fool them by saying, you know, here's a little stress reduction, come on in? I mean, I'm confused about how to work with what seems to be an initial wish for people to just sort of be more calm and happy and present without this knowledge of the possibility of complete freedom being part of their understanding of what's available. Okay, that's a wonderful question and it relates to Fran's question. So when Fran brings up achantika, should we somehow dispose of that problem so the stress of achantika won't be around anymore?

[70:16]

This takes me to another topic near and dear to your heart, all of our hearts, and that's a topic of pain, which also could be called stress. So a lot of people are talking about meditation as stress reduction. They don't usually say meditation as pain reduction, but you could also say meditation as pain reduction. So, but then they say, no, the pain reduction is more for the, you know, for the medical. So this is a medical thing, actually. Well, for pain reduction, you use drugs, and stress reduction, you do meditation. But even in a bodhisattva training camp, bodhisattvas and the people who the bodhisattvas aspire to Buddhahood and some people who and there's other beings who aspire to be bodhisattvas and aspire to be Buddhists so in the bodhisattva training camp you have bodhisattvas and bodhisattva aspirants in the camp and sometimes they have pain when they're sitting like yesterday I heard some people had some pain

[71:34]

in their knees and hips and so on. So do we teach stress reduction for those situations? And I would say it is allowed. Stress reduction is allowed. Pain reduction is allowed when you're practicing bodhisattva meditation. Bodhisattvas are meditating and their meditation is based on, and they're abiding in, a vow to teach the teachings in a conventional way that people can relate to, and also to attain enlightenment. Dogen Zenji's teacher said, when you're sitting, if it gets to be too painful, you can change your legs. You can switch from one kind of full lotus to the other kind of full lotus.

[72:39]

Basically, he was saying you can adjust your posture when it gets too painful. Doga Zenji's teacher. This is going to be a little bit of a digression. 20, 30 years ago, I don't know, yoga teachers said to us, you people teach to put your right leg on your left thigh and put your left leg on your right thigh. Right? Yes. That's what it says in your meditation manual, the Fukanzazenge, yes. But you people should sometimes put your right foot on your left thigh and your left foot on your right, no. You should put your left foot on your right thigh and your right foot on your left thigh. You should do it in that way so you don't get unbalanced. Right? So I went to see one of Kadagiri Roshi's teachers, Japanese teachers, Narasaki Ikko Roshi, and I said, do you think it's all right to, instead of putting the right leg on the left thigh and the left leg on the right thigh, do you think it's okay to first put the left leg on the right thigh and the right foot on the left thigh?

[73:49]

And he said, yeah, it's okay, because Ru Jing, Dogen Zenji's teacher, said it was, you can do that. I didn't get into the yoga teacher's comments and stuff like that. He just could relate to it because in the tradition, Dogen's teacher said you could switch. And then I said, when you switch, can you also switch the mudra? Instead of putting the left hand on top of the right, can you put the right on top of the left? And he said, no, because it didn't say so in the text. But another reason I asked him was because in many Chinese Buddhist meditation texts, it says to fold the legs in the other way and says to put the hands in the other way. When we're in pain, sometimes the pain is so strong that we're quite concentrated. It's one of the first things I noticed when I was practicing that when I was in pain I wasn't distracted at all. At a certain point the pain is so strong that that's all I was thinking about.

[74:53]

It was the only thing I was interested in. I would have liked to have thought of something else. Some people, some of my friends could think of some other things that were so interesting that they actually got away from their pain by thinking about them. But then when they couldn't think that way anymore and they came back it was really bad. But I never found anything sometimes that would take me away from it. So that's one of the advantages of pain is you're focused. But focus is not all of concentration. So in our concentration we have tranquility and wisdom. We have concentration and wisdom. Our concentration has a focused quality, has a buoyant and relaxed quality. So, if you have pain and you're relaxed with it, you have stress reduction. If you have pain and you're tensing up, I would suggest the Bodhisattva, in their meditation, which is based on the vow to realize Buddhahood,

[76:03]

that the bodhisattva would find a way, would look for a way to be relaxed and at ease with the pain. And if the pain gets so strong that you're tensing up, then that tensing isn't conducive to the meditation, which is based on the vow to attain Buddhahood. the meditation of tranquility, which goes with insight into understanding reality. So if you're sitting and the pain gets really so strong that you can't relax, it's probably a good idea to change your posture in such a way that you can be relaxed with the pain. If you change your posture and the pain goes away entirely, that's okay. Then will you relax with that situation?

[77:08]

If you can relax with that, that's one of the key ingredients in concentration is relaxation and flexibility. The Samdhi Nirmacana Sutra says, if you're focused, if you're continuously mentally attentive to some meditation object, is that tranquility? Is that concentration? And the answer is, only if there is this flexibility and relaxation. So we do teach stress reduction as part of the whole course. It's part of concentration, stress reduction. So people... Yeah, so we see it in context. We do teach stress reduction. It is an element in our concentration practice. And our concentration practice is an element in our meditation practice, which is also wisdom practice. And those practices are based on this vow. But some people... do not have this vow, but they want to do the stress reduction.

[78:18]

Do we want to convert them to that? The weak and the strong version of Mahayana universalism is they will convert. They will eventually have this vow. The other one is they should. And the other one is maybe they won't. Maybe they'll just continue to practice tranquility and that will be beneficial to them and will support them to do that. So it depends on your understanding of the thing, but stress reduction is part of our way. And one of the reasons it's part of our way is because when we get together to practice, we do things which bring up stress. We don't try to have stress reduction by eliminating the stress. We do things together, we discover the stress, and then we bring meditation to the stress to relax with it.

[79:23]

Not exactly to turn the stress down, but to take away the additional stress of tensing up around the stress. Okay. Yes. Are you saying that the wisdom practices, our wisdom practices are not part of, are separate from that stress reduction aspect? I'm not saying that the wisdom parts are separate from the stress reduction, I'm just saying that when you have stress, it's possible to have stress. and to be really relaxed and buoyant and concentrated and joyful with the stress. In other words, to be concentrated, to have this thing called shamatha, with stress. Like somebody like Kathy has had a stress fracture in her foot. That stress fracture was there for a while. It's possible that she could have been in a state of tranquility the whole time she had that stress fracture.

[80:29]

Nobody so far, she didn't meet any doctors who could take the stress fracture away. The stress was there in the foot. Almost any position she was in, whether she was putting weight on it or not, a little bit of stress. And that stress was part of maybe the body's way of healing. Right? So there are stresses in our body. When blood sugar level gets a little off, there's stress. There's stress all the time. So it's not exactly we're trying to turn down the stress, but turning down the stress sometimes helps you relax with it. So another example I would give is, I still haven't really addressed your thing. What? Fracture reduced the stress. Yeah, a stress fracture. Yeah, it fractured because the fracture reduced the stress. There was too much stress in the bone. And then there was not so much stress. Still a little bit. So before I go further, I just say that in order to have insight, you must have tranquility.

[81:33]

So in order to have insight, you have insight about conventional teachings. In a sense, every conventional thing is a teaching, and some teachings are traditional teachings. But basically, you use the teachings, conventional teachings, and when you have insight into them, when you awaken to them, you're in a state of tranquility. You need a state of tranquility to fully realize the teaching, the insight. It's in the state of tranquility that the insight lives. If you're studying these teachings and you don't have tranquility and you have a correct understanding of these teachings, your understanding is correct. Is this what this teaching means? Does it mean this? Yes. that's right. You got it. This is the correct understanding. And then, but that's not insight yet. Insight is that correct understanding in a state of tranquility. And in order to have tranquility, the stress level has to be such that you can relax with it.

[82:38]

So some people, when the stress level is at a certain height, they can't relax and they can't be calm. And if they're not calm, they can't create the state in which they could understand the teaching. If that pain would be reduced a little bit, they might be able to, or increased a little bit, they might be able to relax. Sometimes, yeah, I've heard that happen too sometimes. Somebody, when the pain's a little bit irritating, the person resists it, is tense with it, they're agitated, and when it gets stronger, they relax. That sometimes happens. So, but sometimes it helps to reduce it a little bit or change it a little bit in order to give a different perspective. Or somebody else told me that they had a pain and they were thinking about the pain in a certain way and then the way they were thinking about the pain, that way of thinking about the pain dropped away and they had a whole new way of thinking of the pain.

[83:51]

And in a whole new way of thinking of the pain, they felt relaxed. The pain was still kind of the same as far as, it's just that it was reconceived. Does that make sense? That's relaxation, that's mental softness and flexibility. That's what concentration is like, is that you've got pain X, you relax with the way you see pain X, Or you change the way you see. Your mind sees the pain X in a different way and you relax. It's hard to say which is which. Seeing in a different way is relaxing and relaxing is relaxing. You're more concentrated when you're relaxed about what you're seeing than if you're fixed on what you're seeing. And that, in a sense, is stress reduction. And in that state, wisdom comes. comes to fruition. And if you don't have that concentrated state, you still can have a state of studying the teachings, but it's said to be, it's like in accord with or concomitant with insight.

[85:06]

But it's not actually insight unless it's in the concentrated state. Yes? Sometimes I find that pain helps me stay in the room. If it's moderate, and if it gets to be too much, then I really want to leave the room. Yeah, yeah. That's what I was saying. My friend had ways of leaving the room, and I was more like you. When the pain gets... Yeah, same with me, yeah. When it gets to be too strong, you want to leave the room, right? So I would say... So I would suggest I'd rather have you... adjust your posture and stay in the room, then leave the room so you can adjust your posture. And a number of my friends were more rigorous in their practice, you know, 40-some years ago. They were really rigorous and a lot of them quit because they said Zen was too hard.

[86:08]

But really they pushed themselves so hard they had to leave the room of Zen Center because they made Zen so hard. I took it a little easier so I could stay. So back to stress of meditation, it seems sort of charmingly circuitous that meditation practice can help you be comfortable with the stress of meditation practice. Yes. We use the stress of meditation practice as our laboratory. And by using this particular form, we're doing with other people who are using this particular form, and some of them have a lot more experience than we do. So, for example, with my own body, some pains I know are not harmful. So when they come, I'm not worried that they're going to hurt me.

[87:11]

Other pains I know pretty well are harmful. So when they come, I don't continue to be in a position where they will happen. Other pains, I don't know them, and I treat the ones that I don't know like the ones that I do know are harmful until further notice. And so, in all those different pains, I try to see, can I be relaxed with each variety? This variety doesn't harm. Can I relax with that one? And the answer is, I can relax with it until it gets too strong. But even when it's strong, it may not be harmful. Just too strong. Just too intense. The other one, I can maybe stand it longer, but I don't wish to because it's harmful. But in both cases, I want to be relaxed. And you could be relaxed in both cases. In other words, you can be relaxed. And you're focused because this is really interesting. So you've got to focus. but you don't have the relaxation.

[88:16]

So now we need to have the focus and the relaxation. And so that's one of the advantages of this practice is that there are things which are very pressing, so not too difficult to focus, but it's hard to relax. And then when you're relaxed, it's harder to focus, maybe. But we want both. We want buoyancy, relaxation, openness, flexibility, and constant focus. Focus. But not too focused. One last thing if I may, related to meditation and happiness. I just coincidentally read this in a magazine just a couple weeks ago by some nice teacher whose name I don't remember, but he was saying that right on the point of if the point of meditation is to become happier or less stressed, his point was that if your meditation is making you happier or less stressed, you may not be doing it very well.

[89:19]

Because the main point of meditation, in his view, is to become more aware of things as they actually are, which at least initially... probably shouldn't be making you more happy. So Susan, you might not want to publish all of this. Yeah, so if someone told me that they were meditating and in their meditation practice they were becoming happier, was there anything else besides happier? Or less stressed. I'm practicing meditation, I'm feeling less stressed and happier, and I would say, great. And then I would say, and what's most important in your life? And if they said to be happier and less stressed, I'd say, okay, we're there. But if they said, I wish to understand reality,

[90:26]

in order to benefit all beings, then I'd say, well, now let's investigate this happiness. Let's investigate this less stressful situation. Now let's apply the teachings to that. Yes? May I tell a story in response to Susan's question? So you may have seen this also, there was an article that he ordered, about a woman who had been sexually abused as a child and had tremendous anger and hatred toward her father who had done this abuse. And she happened to be in India and went to see the Dalai Lama, had an hour interview with the Dalai Lama to talk about this problem. She was absolutely consumed by anger and hatred And he gave her two teachings, to meditate and to practice compassion and forgiveness toward her father.

[91:34]

And she said there's no way that she could forgive or feel compassion toward him, that her goal or plan in life was to go to law school and prosecute sexual offenders and put them away. That was, you know, very strong drive. And so he sort of said, at that point he patted her and said, okay, just meditate. So she came back to the United States and she went to a 10-day meditation retreat. And at the end of the retreat, the anger and hatred just went away and she felt compassion and forgiveness. And now she's become a foremost, so she did go to law school and she's become a foremost, I can't remember what it's called, someone who adjudicates between

[92:43]

victims of some crime who wish to forgive or who do forgive the perpetrator and the person who's been arrested and helps to adjudicate their sentences. Restorative justice, thank you. So she's become an expert in this area of restorative justice. But I'm very inspired by that. Her pain evidently was so strong around this issue that when she was able to sit with it, she opened up. Yeah, and the Dalai Lama, I think, demonstrated flexibility. he demonstrated that softness of mind so that his wisdom functions in this tranquil, flexible... You know, he probably was not distracted, you know, paying attention to her, focused.

[93:51]

Her story was probably quite interesting. He was right there. But he was also flexible. So he gave her a little instruction on how to meditate right there. He... The main thing he taught her about meditation was not, you know, to give up what you think people should do. Yes. I'd like to say a slightly personal thing. I have found it very daunting coming here to share in this group. And when I first started coming, the intensives rocked a lot. And I looked around and I saw all the cool people hardly spoke. You know, they let other people speak. So for a few times, I didn't hardly speak. And then I found out I was hiding, or I was, like, not participating. But I felt embarrassed at my lack of either scholarship or understanding.

[94:57]

So, you know, I kept coming, but it wasn't working so well. I just want to confess that, say that, that it's not easy being with you guys. That is funny. But something you said Sunday, I feel confused about. So even at the risk of being, of my ignorance being lately obvious to everybody, when you said, when you talk about having a vow, to benefit, that your life was about benefiting all beings. The book that when he said, wow, that totally gets me. When you threw in, or maybe it's been there all along, and I haven't heard it before, the part about realizing Buddhahood, I felt like I have to not be part of that, because I can't even imagine that.

[96:04]

I can imagine living my life for the benefit of all beings. I can imagine aspiring to realize Buddhahood, so I'm used to it. Well, many people say that, that they're up for living their life for the welfare of all beings, or they're up for living for the welfare of lots of beings, or they're up for the welfare of their family, you know, that part they can get. But this Buddhahood thing, they just... Well, you said you can't imagine it. So that's how I brought it up, because I think a lot, you're not the only one to think, do I actually aspire to do the work that would be required to make a Buddha? Wouldn't I have to live here and kind of be you? I mean, how could you pretend that's your aspiration, live a life other than being one?

[97:06]

it would entail not just being a monk, it would also entail being a nun. And it would entail being, it would entail virtually endless effort. Because again, if you look at the story of the Buddha, he said, it took me a long time to get here. So I'm a dabbler? And I'm a dabbler here. Well, it might, in order to make a Buddha, the Bodhisattva actually aspires to be a Buddha. In other words, they're willing to be a dabbler. You know, if that's what it takes. You say vow. I vow to realize the power of vow. Well, first of all, do you wish to become completely skillful, as skillful as is possible? Do you wish that? And then, right there, stop there. Do you wish it?

[98:12]

What problems would you have with being having the best possible understanding and the greatest possible skill. And one of the main things that some might think of is, wouldn't that take a long time? Well, from a conventional standpoint, it takes a long time. And this strange thing, this amazing thing called a Buddha, said it took that Buddha a long time to get to be a Buddha. So, again, something happened in India that some people had this idea of actually following the path that the Buddha followed, go through that long transformation process, which would include being a dabbler

[99:30]

you know, and it would include being all, anything that would be part of the process that you'd be willing to, anything that would further enlightenment, further wisdom, further compassion, you would do those things. And so part of you says, yes, I'll do anything that would further compassion. I'll do anything that would further wisdom. Part of you says, right, I'll do anything that would help me be more skillful to help people. Yeah. what is the Bodhisattva, what is their meditation based on? It's based on a commitment not to cast aside complete, perfect enlightenment. So, yes, I'm, yeah, I'm up for doing whatever would develop more compassion in this world, more wisdom, yes. Okay, good. And are you also going to let hold

[100:32]

the commitment to enlightenment, why you're doing that. And you say, well, that part I'm having a problem with. That's why I'm bringing it up, because it's not just developing compassion and wisdom, it's also carrying the responsibility of Buddhahood at the same time, which is the fulfillment of the things which you, it's the complete maturity of everything that you want to do now. So you could say, well, I'm a dabbler because, you know, I've only done this much compassion and this much wisdom work. Okay? And any Buddha at your stage would be exactly like you except the difference is they would have this wish and this vow to take care of in addition to. So that's what I'm saying. Do you actually... Well... Now I feel like you're saying you're considering it. And you're saying, I can't imagine it.

[101:37]

Well, there are teachings which say that it is inconceivable. So do you wish, and there's a teaching which is saying it must be inconceivable in order to be complete. If it's conceivable, it hasn't reached completion yet. So the Buddha is saying it is an inconceivable state. The full maturity is inconceivable. It's free of karmic consciousness, completely free. So karmic consciousness can't imagine it, and yet somehow there's something in us which can say, I want to try to realize the inconceivable enlightenment, inconceivable dharma. And there's something else in this which says, I would like to realize conceivable compassion and conceivable wisdom. And realizing conceivable compassion and conceivable wisdom is a normal part of the conventional process to realizing

[102:46]

Use the conventional wisdom and conventional compassion to realize great wisdom and great compassion and great wisdom and great compassion are inconceivable. We give up conceptual consciousness in order to enter it. But the way to give up conceptual consciousness to enter the inconceivable Buddha mind is by caring for the conceptual consciousness, which has stress. take care of stress, take care of stress compassionately. And we learn things and when we learn them we feel some stress because we don't understand them and then we do understand them and we feel some relief and then we learn some more and it's hard and we have some stress and we take care of it and we calm down and we understand it and we keep moving like that through the conceivable realm. And finally, The theory is we will enter the inconceivable understanding. And once we do that, we come back and take the inconceivable understanding and run it back into the conceivable realm.

[103:50]

The arhat actually enters into the inconceivable realization. Bodhisattva brings that inconceivable realization back into the conceivable to make a Buddha. So it is inconceivable. And the teaching is, that's the way it has to be. Logically, it has to be that way. Because the realm of conception is the only place we have suffering is in the realm of conception. In emptiness, there is no suffering. There's no origin. There's no cessation. There's no path. There's only those things in the realm of conception. So there's teachings for how to take care of the world of conception so we can become free of the world, the mind-created world of conception. Okay? Yes? I just wanted to clarify something. It sounded like you said, Patrice, you have to be a monk or a nun, and I thought that would be unusual to say that, but that was...

[104:57]

in this journey towards... Well, I think it's highly unlikely that between now and complete perfect Buddhahood that I wouldn't have to be a nun several billion times. As well as all sorts of other... Yes, yes. And if she was a nun, I would say, well, you have to become a monk. And if she's a monk, I would say, you have to become a laywoman. So monks have to become laywomen, laywomen have to become laymen, laymen have to become nuns. We have to be willing to take whatever form is being assigned to us on this path and hopefully You know, some people say, I hope I get to be, you know, I hope I get to be a layperson next time at least. I hope I get to be, you know, a human.

[106:01]

That would really be great. To be a human again? Wow. Some people say, I don't want to be a human again. I want to get out of here. Okay, we've got to wait. We have a way you can get out this lifetime. Not to be a human or not human again. There is a way. And the Buddha taught it. But the Buddha didn't go that way. The only time the Buddha did that way was the last birth. Yes? When you're talking about physical pain, or be more emotional. How do you know when it's a harmful blackout? Think about that. and also you're talking about the left Zen center stuff, and the points are too much.

[107:07]

Like I think about, oh, you know, this is, the way I bring up this kind of thing, oh, this is a great practice opportunity. Point is that practice opportunity. Point is that time for so. Maybe it's not only a practice opportunity. How do you start? Um, let's see. So, you mean when something's happening now, how do I decide if what's happening is beneficial or something in the future? I don't know. In the future? Well, like, you know, I just thought when I was riding a bicycle and then I fell off the bicycle, the bicycle turned and I was thrown onto the cement... Okay. Somebody tells me I'm an arrogant, cruel person, and I feel pain.

[108:11]

So at that time, I'm feeling pain. So are you asking me at that time, what's your question? How do I know it's a practice opportunity? Well, we talked about that before. If... No, but I mean, I mean, I mean, today we're talking about that. When, when, that's, that's why we haven't, we don't have, what do you call it? We don't have a, oh, this is really interesting now. In the Zendo, we sit, and sometimes when we're sitting, we have emotional or physical pain comes up.

[109:14]

And I'm saying to you that in that situation, it's a situation which we're not sitting there to make people have pain. That's not the point of being in the room. We're sitting in the room to help people learn how to relax with pain. The pains that are in that room are just given, they're meant to be opportunities to try to relax. To learn to relax, yeah. So if you're having a pain and you can relax with it, well, good. You learn how to relax with that pain. Then another one comes, emotional or physical, and you relax with it. But we're saying, this is a laboratory. That room is a laboratory. So if the pain gets so strong that you're not relaxing, in the laboratory you can change the chemistry of it. You can uncross your legs. And we have a way of doing it quietly.

[110:15]

Don't scream. We say, I'm so angry. It's so painful. I'm going to change my posture. We don't say do that way. We just quietly uncross your legs for a little while. And then you relax. Okay? Okay? Because you see this pain is so strong I can't relax. So I think maybe in this situation I can change a little bit and I relax. Or someone's yelling at you. They're screaming at you and you say you notice you're not relaxing. So you say, excuse me, I'm going to go away now. So you walk away. Because you cannot relax when they're yelling at you. But if they're yelling at you they're yelling at you. Sometimes, right when they're yelling at you, this wonderful thing happens. You know? And you realize, I can relax even though they're yelling at me.

[111:20]

And I never could do it before. I came here to learn how to do something I didn't know how to do. which was when somebody's yelling at me and hating me, to just listen to them and relax. I wanted to learn that. And also when they're praising me, to just listen to it and relax. I wanted to learn that. But if they're yelling at me and it's so strong that I'm just getting more and more tense, I say, excuse me, time out. I need a break. I'm going to go away now. So I go away and I relax. I come back, do it again. Yep, yell at me again. And they yell at me again. This time I can relax. So the benefit we're trying to develop is the ability to be calm and relaxed. And then if we're calm and relaxed, we can have insight and be free.

[112:21]

But in the laboratory, we can adjust it. And I recommend you do. You know, and people do. Some people are sitting in chairs. And some people are changing their posture. And I hope they're learning how to relax. The benefit we're trying to realize is enlightenment, of course. And part of that is to develop tranquility through the ups and downs of discomfort. One more. I'm thinking about when is the time to actually take a time off from Zen center, kind of. When is the time? How I know this item, how I know. Well, like, if I just go back to the simple example in the Zen talk, if you feel like maybe it would be good to take a period off, usually you would maybe say something to, you might say something to me, or you might say something to the Ino, you say, if people say to me, I feel like

[113:34]

it would be good for me to take a period off and go walk. I say, if you feel that that's beneficial, I need you, if I'm your teacher, I need you to do what you think is best. If you think it's best to leave the zendo, I need you to do what you think is best. But it might be good to tell me too, so I can say, do you think it's best? And you say, yes. But no one knows really what is the best. No, you don't know what's best. I said, think. Do you think it's best? also teachers think it's the best teacher might think it's the best too but even if I thought it was better for you to stay I still usually if you thought it was best I want you I want to support you to do what you think is best even if I disagree but if you're working with me then you if you think I think it would be good for me to leave Zen Center for a while you tell me what you think is beneficial about it I might agree but I might also say I don't agree but I support you to go you know I can support people to do things I don't agree with and hope that it works out well, even though I might think it works out better for them to do something else.

[114:48]

Yeah, there's relative degrees. Well, someone also told me they are reading Suzuki Roshi recently, and this relates also, I think. And he said, I think, sometimes the teacher needs to be, did you say, hard and sometimes soft. And there are certain things you learn when the teacher is soft and there are certain things you learn when the teacher is critical. Sometimes it's good for the teacher to criticize us. But sometimes people are not ready for the teacher to criticize them because the teacher has so much authority for some people that a criticism is so strong that the teacher maybe can't criticize. And I remember one of my friends, one of my Dharma brothers said, I think the problem with our teacher is that he's too kind.

[115:53]

Suzuki Roshi was too kind. But another way to put it is, Suzuki Roshi died before he could be kind of before he could be strict with us. That we weren't mature enough maybe for him to be to be kind of critical of us. He mostly just Everybody says, he just loved this book. He could also love people and be critical. But he learned also, I think, in his previous life, the consequences of being too strong, too critical. And he was, I think, being very careful not to break the student with criticism. But sometimes criticism is good. So it is sometimes good for the student to say, I need some space. I need some change of pace. I would like to try something different that sometimes is good. We don't know it's good, but we'd like to try it.

[116:56]

And I think to work it out with the community and the teacher is a good way to go. And hopefully... the transition into a different way of practicing could go smoothly and everybody can look in their heart and see, well, I'm sorry to see the person go, but I really, I really, really want this to work for them. And I really, I hope this is a beneficial thing. And I think it might be. Or even, I'm not sure it is, but I still want it to be. And they want to try it, so I support it. Okay. Yes. You kind of indicated it was me who was saying that to you. I just wanted to say, I was saying it to Tenshin Roshi. I was apologizing to him for times in the past when he's been kind of strict with me. It's just been too much. I just couldn't take it, and I was apologizing. I'm kind of dormantly weak at night, so I don't take it.

[118:03]

And sometimes people do tell me, they say, I need you to be gentle with me. And I usually feel like I'm totally up for that. And I'll try to learn to be as gentle as you need me to be. And then maybe sometime I can be still gentle, but maybe really strong sometimes. And that person can turn that into a great benefit. Where that before, when that kind of strength came, they couldn't relax. And this time that strength came and they could relax. And wow, that was really strong. It just went right through me. Wonderful. But, yeah. Like I said, you know, I was using physical example and you wanted to switch to the emotional one.

[119:09]

But when I hit the cement, I didn't, I didn't immediately say thank you. Do you understand? The bike threw me onto the cement and I hit the cement right here and I didn't say thank you. I didn't relax. I didn't relax. The next moment I said, relax. But when I first hit, I just went, shit. And the next moment, the next moment I said, relax. And I've been happy ever since. And then when I... When they put me in rehab, and the rehab person called this leg my bad leg, I said, it's not my bad leg. This is a wonderful leg.

[120:11]

It was a great, great servant for 58 years. And it's still serving me, but now it's got some problems. It's my dear leg, my sweet, adorable little guy or little girl, I don't know which. But it's not a bad leg. I love the leg and I take care of it. But when that happened, I didn't say thank you. I didn't relax. It was too much. But the moment later, I remember my practice. So sometimes I can't remember. Sometimes when it hits, I don't remember. Relax. I don't remember. Be gracious. It's too much. I say, no. I do.

[121:17]

But then I recover. I try again. And my vow is to keep doing this and keep doing this. And I think that's your vow too. Just keep trying to be more compassionate to all these insults that are coming emotionally and physically. And sometimes, you can even relax sometimes when you say, I think this is enough for me. You're still relaxed. Before you get tense, you can say, I think if it gets more painful, I'll tense up. I'd like to stop before I get tense. So sometimes you stop before you relax with the pain when you're sitting. and you make some adjustment before you get tense. Sometimes you get tense and you live with the tension and then after a while you say, okay, you become tense with the pain. And you say, that was too much.

[122:18]

I went too long. So sometimes you go too long and sometimes you don't give yourself enough chance to feel the beginning of tension and then drop the tension. Does that make sense? If you never get to the points where you're on the verge of or starting to tense up with the pain, you're probably a little bit, it's too much if you never get there. But sometimes you probably should take it too easy, learn what that's like. So sometimes you quit too early, sometimes you quit too late. Sometimes too early, sometimes too late. And you learn, that was too early. Yeah, I didn't have to stop then. I didn't have to get distracted. I didn't have to turn away from the pain just because the tension started a little. At the first flicker of pain, I didn't have to run away. But the other time I stayed too long, I took too much pain. And I tensed up and then I fought back. So... It's a trial and error thing, right?

[123:22]

And the people who... Well, the people who don't try hard enough, they leave because... As soon as it got hard, they left. And the people who tried too hard, they left because they pushed themselves too hard. So in order to continue the practice a long time, we have to be gentle with ourselves. And we don't know what's best, but we should be gentle with what we think is best. Now we're at the beginning of this practice period. I mentioned to you before, somebody looking at you guys said, Boy, it's amazing that they come here and do this. It's kind of hard to do this intensively. It looks kind of hard. I said, yeah, it is kind of hard. It is a little bit hard. Most of us are a little bit having a hard time, aren't we? So, again, once again, I remember in a session in the last year of Suzuki Roshi's life, when was the last year?

[124:26]

Yep, the last year of his life, I think it was like February, before he had his gallbladder attack. At the beginning of a session, he said, now we're starting the session and if it gets too difficult, maybe some of you will need to sit in a chair. If it gets too cold, we'll turn the heat up a little bit. He said, the important thing is we're going to finish this together. Some of you may have to take a period off. But we're going to finish this together. One time, a couple of years before that, I was sitting in Sashin. At the beginning of Sashin, I was kind of well. And I started to get the flu. And I don't remember exactly, but I think after I started feeling sick, I stopped going to work period. And I went and rested during work period. And then I got sicker and I stopped going to meals.

[125:30]

But I kept sitting. And I just kept cutting back and cutting back. And I was able to go to almost all the sittings. But I cut back on the work, on the service, on the talks, and on the meals. All I could do with the sesshin was the sitting. And then by the middle of sesshin, when I was just doing the sittings, I started to feel a little bit better. And then I started maybe to go to service and then I started to feel a little better and I started to go to meals and I started to feel a little bit better and I started to go to work period. By the end of the session I could do the whole schedule. But in the middle of the session all I could do was the sittings. And of course it might get to the point where you can't even do that. But the point is you're there and you're judging what is the appropriate thing We don't know, but we're trying to do the appropriate thing. If I had tried to continue to do the whole thing, I don't know, I just would have collapsed.

[126:33]

I probably would have got really sick. That might have been, for somebody, that might have worked. But for me, I had to cut back, cut back, until I could just do what I could do. And I could do very little. And it was beautiful. And there was a person sitting next to me who watched, who knew what I was doing because they were right next to me. And this person did not get sick. But I really encouraged her to see how I adjusted to this illness. And I hung in there. She told me afterwards that she could see me going through this. Okay? We're going to you know, maybe find a way to keep doing this and get through this together, okay?

[127:25]

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