The model case or the example of intimate communication that we brought up last week was a conversation between fayen, that's the Chinese pronunciation, and hōgen, Japanese pronunciation, means dharma, dharma eyes. And he was questioned by a monk named Hui Chau. The monk said, what is Buddha? And Ba Yan said, you are Hui Chau. It's a short conversation. later commentators suggested that they were able to be intimate so quickly because they were both already working on being intimate.

[01:25]

So this conversation starts up in the midst of an intimate communion, and so the first statement is coming from that communion, and the next statement is kind of a simple statement, you know, you are Stephen, you are Susan, kind of simple, but the carefulness of it, came from that close relationship they had. And so it's held up for about a thousand years as an example of the intimate conversations that we have in the Buddha way. There's other stories about Pai Yen that illustrate, again, this careful way that he had of communicating with people, and careful way that people had communicating with him, and also how sometimes people learned how to communicate with him in conversation.

[02:41]

In the commentary on this, also in the commentary on this case, in addition to mentioning that this monk, Hui Chao, was already well attuned, so that that simple reiteration of the intimacy of Hui Chao with the Hui Chao is Buddha. There's another story in the commentary, a similar a similar story of conversation and intimacy, or conversation and attunement to intimacy, and then the realization of intimacy. Intimacy is already here, and yet somehow there's an issue of entering it or not. It's a strange kind of thing that there's an opportunity to enter the reality that's already here.

[03:56]

And if we don't practice entering it, it's almost like we miss it. Why do we have to enter it? Well, it's maybe the kind of creatures we are. We have to enter into who we are. we have to realize that everybody's inside us, and that's sometimes quite painful. Or the painfulness of our relationship sometimes initiates us into them. The first story is, no sign of pain. Just very quick. What's Buddha? Bradley is Bradley. You are Bradley. The next story is that in one of Dharma Eye's monasteries there was a director or superintendent of the monastery.

[05:06]

One day, Fa Yan said to the superintendent, his name was Superintendent Tse. One day he said, how come you never come, how come you never enter my room? The expression is enter the room. That's it. That's the key term in Zen, enter the room. Kind of like, You know, enter yourself, enter the room, enter reality. So we have this room and you can enter it as a kind of ceremony of entering reality. So the teacher says, how come you don't enter the room? Sometimes they put in brackets, my room, or put in brackets, enter the room to meet me. sometimes they extend it, enter the room and meet the teacher. But the usual way is just enter the room.

[06:19]

It's understood. You enter the room to meet the teacher, to meet the Buddha, to realize reality. But anyway, the director didn't enter the room apparently. I think he said, you've been here for two years and you haven't entered the room. And we have other stories of great relationships, pivotal relationships in the history of the school, where the great student doesn't enter the great teacher's room, and then there's a kind of question, either by the teacher or by fellow monastics, how come you don't go in the teacher's room? Maybe we'll tell some more stories like that, but this one anyway is Master Fa Yan and Director Tzu. And Master Fa Yan said, you've been here two years, how come you haven't entered the room? Or, no, how come you haven't entered the room?

[07:20]

What's up? And the director said, well, haven't you heard or don't you understand, teacher? Haven't you heard? Isn't the rumor out that I had entry with Ching Lin. Now that I'm saying that to you, it could be understood, haven't you heard I entered Ching Lin's room? Or I entered the room with Ching Lin. But it could also be understood I entered reality with Master Ching Lin. So I already have done it, I don't need to come into your room. I've already entered reality, so And I did it with a different teacher. But, you know, I didn't think I had to do it here, too, since I've already done it. And then I think Falian said something like, could you tell me about it?

[08:34]

Yeah, he just said, after the director said, I had entered, he said, could you tell me about it? And the director said, I asked Ching then, what is Buddha? Same question as in the previous story. Apparently in the old days, they used to ask that question. They'd go in the room and ask that question. I'm not telling you to ask it, but... If you did, you'd be acting like ancient Zen monks who'd go into the room and say, What is Buddha? Maybe they didn't have the internet, they didn't know what the other people were asking. Same question. That question is asked quite a few times in quite a few stories, what is Buddha?

[10:06]

Sometimes they say, what is Zen? Two stories to start with. The inquirer saying, what is Buddha? And this story, the teacher says, the second story the teacher says, Fire God comes seeking fire. Literally, it's fire boy comes seeking fire. But the fire boy is a divine fire boy. He's the boy who is in the fire, in the monastic kitchen. He's the divine presence in the monastic kitchen. And so the teacher says, in response to what his Buddha teacher says, the fire boy comes seeking fire.

[11:10]

And then at entry, Oh, so he thought. Huh? Oh, so he thought. Oh, so he thought, yeah. And then, and then Foyen said, I'm kind of concerned that the director has misunderstood. the director contained his anger and left the monastery. It doesn't say in the story the details.

[12:13]

Did he say goodbye to Fa Yan? Did he just walk out? Anyway, the director, as a result of what happened in that room, left the monastery. He actually was supposed to be the enlightened director. And after he left, Pha Yen said, if that person returns, he can be liberated. If he doesn't, You won't be able to be. So it seemed like the attunement was not quite there when Pha Yen said, the director doesn't understand, I'm afraid. The director didn't kind of like enter joyfully into that, seemed to like get angry and go off, jump out of the relation, try to jump out of the relationship.

[13:23]

However, he didn't succeed, because as he was walking away from the monastery on the road, he thought, well, Faiyan's a teacher of many... good students. He has a nice, big community. He probably has some virtue. Maybe I should give him another chance." And he went back so he could be saved. And when he got back to meet Bayen, now he's entering the room. I don't know what they said, but Fa Yan said, ask me again. And the director said, what is Buddha? Fa Yan said, the fire boy comes seeking fire.

[14:24]

Let me ask, what is the self of a Zen student? That's the Book of Serenity. So we can do the story again. with, what is the self of the student? What is Buddha? What is the self of the student? So in the book, in the Gluf-Lef record, it says, what is Buddha? And that same, in the Book of Serenity, there's a story about Fa Yan and Xu Shang, which I'll tell you. And commentary on that, they also tell the story. But in that story, the director says, when I was with Qing Lin, I asked him, what is the self of the student? So what is the self of the student is also a traditional question, which is virtually a substitute for what is Buddha. The self of the student is Buddha.

[15:33]

And what is that? All day long, what is the self of the student who's walking around Green Gulch? It's a traditional meditation. The meditation is, what is the self of the student? What is the Buddha? And when he said, what is the self of the student, Ching Lin said, fire boy comes seeking fire. So the question, the first question, first time was the question with Ching Lin. He said, what is Buddha? Ching Lin said, fire boy comes seeking fire. He had entry. Ba Yan tested it and he said, no, you don't. And he got angry. came back. The conversation continues.

[16:35]

He comes back and Faryen said, let's try it again. Ask me. He said, what is Buddha? Faryen gets the same answer. This time the attunement was realized. Self-story has that happy ending of entry into Buddha, entry into reality. So this method of subtle and intimate communion using words to test and probe that convert the relationship.

[17:39]

It's one of the hallmarks of Fa Yun's teaching. The other story, which is very similar, is one of Fa Yan's friends, kind of Dharma brother, is named Xu Shan. And Xu Shan, Xu means like Lord or Master, and Shan means mountain. And I'm not sure if his Dharma name is Master of the Mountain or Mountain of the Master, I think it would be translated, would be Master Mountain or Mountain of the Master. And I'm not sure if that was his dharma name or if that was the mountain he was the abbot of.

[18:44]

Anyway, that's his name. And he was friends with Phalien. And they were talking one day. And... Yeah. I think they were talking one day about this, they were talking about intimate communication. They were talking about the attunement, the attunement in our practice. And I think Fa Yan said to Xu Shan, a hair's breadth difference brackets in the attunement, is like the distance from heaven and earth.

[19:48]

The slightest discrepancy fails to accord with the proper attunement. A hair's breadth difference is like the distance between heaven and earth. Vayin said, and he said then to Shishan, he said, how do you understand that? Shishan said, a hair's breadth difference is like the distance between heaven and earth. Vayin said, good, but How can you realize it like that? This is more advanced than the previous story.

[21:01]

Shinshan's not getting angry and running out. He's coming back very nicely. And then, Paya's not running around. He's not saying, well, you came back nicely, I'm out of here. Now, he accepts this nice response. Nice response. And he says, well, how can you realize it like that? That's good, but... And then Sushant says, I am just this way. How about you, teacher? Again, very nice. And then Faryan says, A hair's breadth difference is like the distance between heaven and earth. And Shushan bows. Yes.

[22:31]

A hair's breadth difference between what? Well, a hair's breadth difference in what? In what to what? In what to what? Could be in what to what? Did you hear what to what? You said it, right? There's a difference. There's a gap, right? Is there? Is there a gap between in what to what? Could be. That's what the story is about that. Is there? Well, it's like having an earth. That's how far apart it is. But what is the difference? What is the storytelling that's It's interesting, you said, from what to what, and then you said, what is the difference?

[23:34]

What is the difference in what to what? Is what the difference? Is what the difference? Is what the difference? Or what is the difference? Yeah, what is the difference? Is that true? Is it true that what is the difference? Or what is it? What's on second? What's on second? It's on first. If you wish, do you wish for there to be a difference? I don't have a wish. I'm just wondering what... Don't have a wish? What Fionn was referring to. when you said a hair's breath difference. Difference of what? You're interested in a difference of what?

[24:37]

Of hair's breath. You're interested in a difference of hair's breath? And what that is. You want to know what that is? Yes. It's difference. Of what? What's the difference of what? Anyway, that's what you're interested in, right? You're interested in what is the difference of? That's my question. It seems to me that you know as well as anybody about difference, that you're as knowledgeable about difference as the rest of us. So if you don't know what difference is, since you're as knowledgeable as we are, if you don't know of what is the difference, if you don't know, we don't know.

[25:40]

That's what I think. If you do know, then tell us, and that could be an answer to your question. I do not know. Yeah, so if you don't know, we don't know. And if somebody in the room says they do know, I would say, no, you don't, because Jackie doesn't. Well, people can speculate. I know. Well, even before they speculate, they can state that they do know. And they might have gotten to knowing by speculation or some other method. But I'm just saying, if you don't know, nobody knows. I speculate that you have an idea what that is. That's why I asked you. You speculate that I do? Yeah. Okay, I hear your speculation. And my response to your...

[26:43]

disclosure... Inquiry. That you... Did you speculate that I have a speculation? Did I have to say it? The thought occurred to me. The thought occurred to you? And I would say, if you can have an idea about what it might be, I think I could too. And if I couldn't, if I didn't have one, I could just ask you. And I'd have one. But even though I might have an idea about what the discrepancy is about, or what is the discrepancy, I do not know what the discrepancy is. Is it about self and object? Is it about that? Yeah. Do you think so? I mean, that's what all the Zen stories are about, basically. That we're a wine, but there's no self. And that if we... Are you the director?

[27:50]

You're the guy that walked out? Uh... Yeah. I'm sorry you feel that way. I just asked you if you're the director. I didn't say I feel that way. So do you want to ask me if I feel that way? Do you feel that I'm the director? No. Okay. I don't feel I'm the director. So if I ask you if you're the director, what do you say? No. Say no. Just checking. Okay. Because the director might know what all the Zen stories are about. I myself do not know what they're all about.

[28:54]

But I'm here to talk with you even though I don't. I don't know what the distance between heaven and earth is But I am betting that if there's a slight discrepancy, it's like that. Like what? The distance between heaven and earth. But I don't know what that is. But I understand that in the attunement that we're contemplating in this course, the attunement, the intimate attunement, there is not a discrepancy. There's not a discrepancy. There's not a discrepancy. And if there is a discrepancy, then there's not an accord with attunement.

[29:59]

So I'm concerned about attunement. What is a discrepancy? What is a discrepancy? Well, that's kind of like what she asked. I don't know what a discrepancy is. She didn't know. I asked her, she just said she didn't know what discrepancy was. Did you say something like that? Yes, but I speculate it. Yeah, well, you can speculate but not know, right? You can wonder about the discrepancy. You can speculate about it. You can think about it, I want to say, curiously think about what is the discrepancy. And I said last week, I think maybe I said it at some point, that wondering about Zen practice is partisan practice.

[31:06]

So wondering about what the discrepancy is... Are you wondering about what the discrepancy is? Yeah, so part of wondering about discrepancy might be to ask somebody, what is the discrepancy? I'm also confused on what that word means, like actual. Some sort of difference? Is that a discrepancy? Kind of a difference? Yeah. You could say the slightest discrepancy fails to accord with the proper attunement. And proper means, I think in this case, the attunement to the teaching of suchness, to the attunement to... We're talking about the attunement to the intimate transmission. teaching of suchness, intimate transmission, Buddhas and ancestors, and then talking about the intimate transmission or the proper attunement. The slightest discrepancy fails to accord with the proper attunement.

[32:16]

Okay? And discrepancy, I think, is like, you could say, the slightest difference fails to accord with the proper tune. And you can wonder, what is difference? What is discrepancy? Wondering about that, thinking about what the discrepancy is, seems that may promote the attunement, wondering about what the discrepancy is, I think often does promote attunement. In other words, promote there not being the slightest discrepancy. And that brother man, C, had an idea of what it was? Well, maybe he didn't really know that he... was caught up in any discrepancy. Maybe his discrepancies were like living in his unconscious cognitive processes.

[33:20]

And he thought, you know, I've realized entry, I've realized what is Buddha. So I don't have to go see the teacher. Now the teacher's asking me about this realization where there's no discrepancy, maybe. And then I tell him, you know, that... Oh, I forgot the important part. When Fa Yan said to him, what did you realize? He said, well, you know, I asked the guy, I asked him, what is Buddha? And he said, fire god comes to seek fire. And then he said, I'm afraid you don't understand. I'm concerned, tell me about it.

[34:23]

And he said, it's like the self going to find the self. Or it's like, I'm Buddha and I'm trying to find Buddha. I'm Buddha and I'm seeking Buddha. He said that. And then Thay Yen said, yeah, that's what I thought, you don't understand. So... So inquiring and wondering about what the discrepancy is, is part of the conversation. It's part of the conversation of realizing no discrepancy. In terms of practicing precepts, we aspire to a precept And if there's a slightest discrepancy, we fail to accord the proper attunement with the precept. But when we're practicing precepts, we might think that there's discrepancy between my behavior and telling the truth, or there might be a discrepancy between my behavior and...

[35:40]

and not intoxicating, or some discrepancy between my behaviour and praising self at the expense of others, or not praising self at the expense of others. I might feel like I think there was a little discrepancy there, a little difference between what I was doing, what I was thinking, how I was talking, and that precept. So now I investigate that apparent discrepancy. I don't know what that discrepancy is, but I think I see one. Maybe there was one. So I investigate that. How is my behavior different from the precepts? That's a normal part of realizing no discrepancy with the precepts. Yes.

[36:48]

I wonder if I could offer the word separation. Sure. Would that be synonymous with difference and discrepancy? It kind of is, yeah. And then you could wonder, well, what is separation? So part of intimate communion, intimate communication, is wondering about separation. Yes. When the director was angry, that was a discrepancy? Was that a discrepancy? Well, again, I don't know. I don't know if it was a discrepancy. Was it looked that that was not entering the room?

[37:48]

Well, he actually hadn't entered the room in a way. I mean, he was in the room, but he didn't enter it. He found himself in the room. He got tricked into being in the room. And I guess because he didn't say, okay, I want to go in there, when he found himself, maybe he wanted to get out. So I'll ask you a question again. Ask the question again. When the director was angry, was that a discrepancy? Yeah. So your question is kind of like Jackie's question and Sam's question. What is a discrepancy? What is discrepancy? And I don't know. So I don't know if there was a discrepancy when he got angry. I don't know. but your question was there is welcome. You asked it kind of, Jackie asked it kind of, Sam asked it kind of, and my answer is I don't know if there's a discrepancy.

[38:52]

Or I don't know if that was a discrepancy. Because I don't know if there are discrepancies. I think maybe there really aren't. So the way things are is that there aren't discrepancies, and yet also the way things are is there's the appearance of discrepancies, but then there's the talk about discrepancies, and there might even be the image of a discrepancy, and then we have, like, was that a discrepancy? And someone might say, well, let's just say tentatively, yes, it was. Well, what is that? What is the discrepancy? And the director, according to the story, the director was not so interested in looking at what the discrepancy was. He wasn't interested in looking at what the anger was. He got in and got angry and said, teacher, I'm containing my anger and I'm kind of wondering, is this anger a discrepancy?

[39:57]

When did the director enter the room? As soon as he met Fa Yan, he entered the room. At the beginning of the story? Yeah, at the beginning of the conversation, he entered the room. However, Fa Yan, who he's in the room with, also has this picture that this person has never said, can I enter the room? They're living together in the monastery. He's the abbot, he's the teacher, and this person is a senior person who's in charge of the monastery. And Faoyan knows he has not formally come into the room, even though he's been here for a while. But as soon as Faoyan is talking to him, he really has entered the room. And then he says, how come you haven't? And he goes along with that, the director goes along with it. Yeah, it's true, I haven't. And the reason I haven't is because I already did it. Which again is true, he already did.

[41:02]

However, and then he explains why he hasn't entered the room. And Bobby Adams says, well, tell me about it. And they have this conversation. And then he gets angry. And then he says, I'm going to get out of this room. I'm leaving this place. So you're asking me, was there a discrepancy when he got angry? No. I would say there's not. If you say, I think there is, I say, I can see that. Did Faoyan say, you never entered the room? He didn't say that. Well, he said, yeah, you've been here for two years and you haven't entered the room yet. When the director said, I entered the room with another teacher in the past, Faoyan's response to that was, no, you didn't. Kind of like, well, tell me about it. Because he said, I had entry.

[42:05]

He goes along with, I haven't had entry with you, but I had entry with him. And Falyan said, okay, tell me about it. And then he told him about it. And then Falyan says, I'm not so sure you understand, tell me more. So then he explains more, and he says, hmm, okay, now I'm more confident that you did not enter. And then he gets angry. So you could say, well, when he got angry, then there was not proper attunement. In a way, it looks like there wasn't. But in a way, there was. That anger was an essential part of the story. And then he even left, and that's an essential part of the story. And Fa Yen says, if he comes back, he could be liberated, and he comes back.

[43:06]

The first story, we didn't have the guy getting angry. Like the guy, it could have gone like this. What is Buddha? And says, you are Sean. And Sean contains his anger and storms out. Or Sean gets angry and says, I didn't ask you my name, who I was. I asked you who Buddha was, you know, and I'm out of here, you idiot. And then you leave, and I say, guess what? If he comes back... We can help him. If he doesn't, it's going to be a while. He's going to have to suffer for quite a while. If he comes back, it's like, that's pretty fast. We can go right to work. The first story, the monk was already ready to be initiated into the intimacy. Second story, intimacy has this more, it's a more interesting story in a way.

[44:09]

It kind of tells you all that went on really in the first story. That monk probably had various types when he ran away before that moment. Most of us have then turned and adjusted and resisted and then come back. In fact, we've all come back. Here we are. Yes. I think it's important that he was the director. The first story is a monk, and the second story is a director. And I've been wondering about, I believe that's intentional. It's important in the story that he's a director in some way. And I have some

[45:12]

ideas about how that plays into the development. So if a monk is sort of an initial entry, a newbie, that the work continues and must continue. So I wonder about, you know, the ego or having a position to sort of having a role to fill and how that can sometimes mean that there's more work to do in the community. I wonder about that. And I wonder what your thoughts are about why the second story is a director rather than just a simple mom thing.

[46:14]

I wonder why the story is that way. Does it mean something important or specific to you that it's a director in the second story? Well, what comes up in consciousness is that we have this wide variety of stories about attunement. And so we have attunement with and now I have attunement with the director, and now I have attunement with another Zen master. So the tradition has, in relationship to this teacher, the tradition has gathered a whole bunch of stories about how he attuned with different people. The tradition wants us to see, well, how did he do it without... That was interesting how he did it with this person, But I don't know why it is, for example, that you're a woman of a certain age.

[47:19]

I don't know what the cause and conditions are that have created you to be here to ask your question. But our conversation will be an example for future generations of this intimate communion. But why you needed to be the way you are tonight for this conversation to occur, I really don't know. So I don't know the reasons why the rector wound up with this teacher to have this conversation. I don't know. But I think people thought, that was a good conversation. Let's take care of that for future generations. Let's remember the story of the director's awakening for future generations. But they didn't exactly know how the director got into that position.

[48:27]

The director kind of had a story about how the director got into that position. The director's story was, well, I studied with this other teacher, I had entry, and now I got, you know, so now I'm a big wheel here. That's partly because I have a good understanding. Maybe that's the director's story, which is fine. And Fa Yan wants to communicate with him and wonders why he's not coming to talk. And so now they are talking. And then he's probing, you know, is the director holding on to his story of how he got to be the director? Is the director holding on to his story about... why he doesn't have to go visit the teacher. Maybe he has a really good story about why he doesn't have to visit the teacher. Okay, well, let's hear it. So then he tells the story. And the teacher says, it's not that I disagree with your story, I just don't think you understand what's going on, including you don't understand your own story. It's not like I'm arguing with your story.

[49:28]

I'm not saying you didn't. have this conversation with Ching Lin. I'm not saying he didn't have awakening. But it's sort of like the director is saying, oh, I don't need to. It's very much like... I don't need to come in because I did it already. I ran in sight. Yeah, that's right. My reality has penetrated mine. I am enlightened, and therefore I don't need to come into the room. And then when that's questioned... He's a prophet like that. Not right away, though. When he first questions, he's willing to explain. So the teacher says, tell me about it. Then he explains. Then he's criticized. Just a second. Then he explains, and the teacher says, tell me more. And then he says, you could say criticized, or anyway, the teacher says, you could say criticized, but actually, now the story is, then they started to get closer.

[50:36]

Now they're getting closer. So now he can say, well, now that we're so close, I can tell you I'm kind of concerned. And you might get angry. No, right? Oh, yeah, there you go. I thought that might happen. Because we're getting close. As we get closer, the likelihood of anger, generally speaking, increases. And sure enough, here it is. Now, and now that buddy's leaving. Whoa! Sometimes the teacher says stay. But anyway, sometimes the teacher lets him go and, yeah. And being director may be part of the conditions for being less open to feedback, sometimes. I've asked you a question in the past, Rick, about insight.

[51:40]

sort of the question about whether one has an enlightenment experience or has a certain kind of insight. if they need to continue to practice or that insight will sort of not serve them anymore. It's not something that's sort of fixed, but it has to continually be lit. And I've sort of heard you say, kind of both things, that on one hand, once you really have seen or had an experience of insight, that doesn't go back to before you had that experience. But that you also need to continue to develop all along that part of the function of the teacher and the self.

[52:46]

Did you hear what she said? Did you understand what she said? So when an insight occurs, then you're changed by various insights. But let's call it a bona fide insight of the type that we call liberation from delusion, that particular type, which is a really especially wonderful type of insight. And once we have insight which liberates us from delusion, we will never be the same again. Now, the insight which liberates us from delusion, one way to put it is, you still need to practice more. The other one is, you understand better that you have to practice more. If your insight is not so good, if your liberation from delusion has not really been accomplished very well by that insight, then you might think you don't have to go into the room anymore.

[53:55]

So the insight actually promotes you continuing to practice. So when we say you need to practice more, And if the insight is that you don't need to, then your insight is dangerous. And is that the director in the story, in a way, that he's... I think he is. Well, Fa Yan didn't think his insight was too good because his insight was that I don't have to keep going in the room. That's usually not a good sign. Usually, the good thing about, one of the good things about insight is that you're more enthusiastic about doing the practice rather than like, well, now I don't have to do it anymore. It was hard and now I don't have to do it anymore. That's not the way insight is. In this tradition, insight is when you feel like, how fortunate you are to have this hard time all this time, and how fortunate it is that you can continue to have a hard time.

[55:06]

Or not. But anyway, how fortunate it is that you've been able to practice and that you might be able to. You can't be sure, but you maybe have more confidence. You know, I think maybe I will be able to. And how wonderful. I didn't realize how wonderful practice was until now. And now I even more want to practice, even if it's difficult. So I think, I've got a lot of work to get here, and finally I got here, and this is great, and now I don't have to work anymore. At least not that way. I can just work by publishing my insights and becoming famous. I can see the director, I can see the robes, and I can just sort of see the costume in a way.

[56:10]

The robe is a costume, yeah. And the identification with that role. My grandson likes costumes. He's almost 16 and he likes costumes. He said one time, at some point where clothes were going to be bought for him as a present, he said, excuse me for saying this, he said, the land's end is social suicide. Does everybody know the land's end? Do you know what Land's End is? I have no idea. Would you tell Cookie-san what Land's End is? Cookie-san, it's an American dress that everyone wears. Lan Zhan is not in style for teenage boys.

[57:20]

Or many others. As you may have noticed, I wear lances. So he's into costumes. And when he was a little boy, he was into costumes. He still is. He's also, another term for him is he is a metrosexual. Metrosexual. Do you know what that is? Have you heard of homosexual? No. Homosexual? Heard of that? Yeah. Heterosexual? Yeah. Okay. And there's metrosexual. Metrosexual is heterosexual boys that have really good taste.

[58:44]

Yeah. Or anyway, that are really concerned with the proper costumes. It's amazing that he's your grandson. I cannot even think of it. When he was a little boy, he wanted me to take him to some sports store to buy him some flippers, swimming flippers, and a snorkel and a mask. So I bought that equipment for him. And then he was looking around at some of the other equipment in the store. And he saw a lacrosse costume. And he wanted to get it. And I said, I'll get it for you, but only if you play lacrosse. But he liked the costume.

[59:47]

So costumes are... It's part of the deal for humans. We wear costumes. And some people are more or less into it, but it's part of the deal. So, let's take care of our costumes, okay? And our costumes are part of our... part of our... what? Part of our what? Intimacy. It's part of our intimacy. It's part of our conversation. It's part of our communication with each other, what we're wearing. and how we wear it. And so part of Zen practice is putting on costumes with each other, getting dressed up, and then using that dress-up thing as a means for Holy Communion. Because everybody wears costumes. If you come here nude, that's a major fashion statement. We're making fashion statements all the time.

[60:51]

Like, I'm not going to have anything to do with fashion. Or, I'm totally into it. Yeah, costumes are part of the deal. So let's pay attention that when you put clothes on, that's not like a brick, it's not like, okay, when you're putting your clothes on, this is a vacation from intimate transmission of the teaching. No. When you put clothes on, that's an opportunity to practice, to say, this is what I'm doing right now, for the sake of Holy Communion. But I can imagine somebody will get angry and want to leave the monastery where what you wear, you know, is a statement about your faith. I don't want to be in a place where everything I do is a statement of my faith.

[61:56]

Okay, I hear you. And you're still here after you said that. And you are in a place like that, but you don't want to be in a place like that. I understand. It's kind of like, I don't want to live in this house, your child says. I want to live someplace else. I don't want to be married to you. I don't want you to be my teacher. I don't want you to be my student. This is part of the life of teachers and students. This is part of the life of monasteries. I don't want to be in this monastery. Got some calls from Tassajara. We had a practice period down in Tassajara. People are calling me from Tassajara saying, I don't want to be here. Thoughts arising in my mind, I want to get out of here. And I said, that's normal. I don't want to be in a place where everything I do has consequence.

[62:59]

It's normal to think that. But in the Buddha Dharma, everything you do has consequence. When you're in Buddha's house, the name of the game is, everything you do has consequence. That's the story here. That's the teaching of suchness. I don't want to be here." I hear you. We listen to people saying they don't want to be in Buddha's house. In Buddha's house we listen to people saying, I don't want to be here. I want to go someplace where what I do doesn't have consequence. I hear you. And people in Buddha's house say that all the time. So in that way, everybody's in Buddha's house. Some people say, I want to be where everything has consequence, everything I do has consequence. That's in Buddha's house. But also in Buddha's house people are saying, I don't want to be in that place. And that's... You know, when people are in monastic training,

[64:02]

I don't hear quite so often people saying, I want to be a place where everything I do has consequence. They sometimes say that, but not as often as I don't want to be in a place like that. But at the beginning of the training, when they ask, say, can I come in? Then they say, I want to be in a place where everything I do has consequence. Like when people receive the Bodhisattva precepts, they say, I want to receive these precepts, In other words, I want to, and if I don't follow through, I want to face the consequences. And then after that, they say, I don't want to. Yes, was somebody raising their hand? No? Yes. So in a way, things are Are you saying there may not be discrepancy or a habit of deviation, but where we live, the world, in a conscious world,

[65:06]

Best we can do is asking question, what is Zen? What is discrepancy? What is helpless deviation? But we never reach what is. But we still discuss and think about it. And that process is the intimacy. But where this intimacy is there? is the way things are, or what that intimacy is related to the way things are. The way things are is intimacy. So basically what we can do is just wandering around. Do you say wandering like wandering, or do you say wondering? Wonder, wonder, yeah. Now, wondering is, I wouldn't say it's the best we can do. I think it's a kind of necessary part of what we do.

[66:12]

Questioning, like, okay, so teaching says, the teaching is intimate communication. The statement is, the teaching is intimate communication. And then the teaching says, now you have it. It doesn't say, you're going to reach it later. It says, now you have it. Then it says, take care of it. In order to take care of it, we practice, right? But the practice part is thinking about it and question about it. What else we can do? So part of taking care of the intimate thing, which you already have, is to wonder, what is the intimacy? Intimacy. And then part of taking care of it is when there seems to be not intimacy. But everything is going to be intimacy. Yes, but I mean when it seems, when it looks like not intimacy, like when somebody looks like they're over there, or when they look like they're ten feet away or two feet away, when it looks like that, you say, well, that looks like a discrepancy.

[67:21]

So you can say, what is discrepancy? Or you can also say, okay, now, what is intimacy? Right now. When I get angry, what is this? Yeah, yeah. And when that person seems to be separate from me, and they're saying, I don't agree with you, I'm the teacher, and I think you're wrong, that would happen. Then you say, okay, right now, what is intimacy when the teacher says, I disagree with you? What is intimacy? It isn't like you say, this is intimacy. But you could say, when the teacher says, I don't agree with you, you could say, this is intimacy. That's okay. But after you say, this is intimacy, you could say, what is intimacy? Or you could say, when the teacher says something, you could say, this is not intimacy. But then what is intimacy? After you say it's not or it is, what is it? So what is intimacy? What is the teaching of suchness?

[68:23]

That's a normal part of taking care of it. But also what happens while you're taking care of the teaching of suchness, when you're taking care of the teaching of intimacy, which you have, it's normal that you say, I don't want to do this anymore. I want to get out of here. Get out of where? Get out of this taking care of intimacy. I want to go someplace else where I don't have to take care of intimacy. Where I don't have to be with these people. Or anyway, with that person. I don't want to be with these leaders or these teachers. I want to go be with my nice teacher back at Green Gulch. I like my teacher at Green Gulch more than my teacher at Tata Hara. That's happening. And the vice versa is happening. Some people are saying, I want to be with my nice teacher, not the teachers at Green Gulch.

[69:24]

That's normal. But then, that's not practiced. It's not practiced to think, these teachers are no good. That's not practiced. These teachers are good. That's not practiced. What's practiced is to take care of the intimacies. When you say, these teachers are no good, what's the intimacy at that moment? When you say, oh, the teachers here are really good, what's the intimacy? The students here are great. That's not practice. That's just thinking. What's the practice? It's the intimacy that's alive right there while you think, oh, these are good people. The intimacy, when you think that, that's the practice. Well, what is that? What is that? That's part of it. And then we have all these other practices which are kind of like instruction about what does it mean to wonder. What does it mean to wonder can be kind of articulated.

[70:26]

Like we have a hand and we have five fingers. So we have intimacy, we have wondering about what it is, and again, wondering goes with the intimacy. But we're never able to articulate it. No, you can articulate it. Here we go. Ready? One, two, three. Generosity, ethics, patience, diligence, concentration and wisdom. That's an articulation of wondering. If you're wondering but not practicing generosity, your wondering practice is not really fully functioning. Because wondering, you also welcome not knowing what wondering is, even. Or wonder if you are wondering. Also, if you're wondering but you're not open, like I wonder about Jackie, but not about Francesca. That's not wondering. But that's not generous. If I'm generous, I'm wondering about you, and you, and you. I'm wondering about everybody I meet.

[71:29]

I wonder, who is this? What is this? What is this? What is this meeting? I wonder. And the generosity is I don't wonder for just these people. I wonder. I welcome all people. Generosity is not picking and choosing. And then I'm careful. Being careful of all these meetings is part of intimacy, is part of wonder. And so on. Being patient with Being patient with being in a world where everything you do has consequence. That's where, you know, like you don't go to the teacher and the teacher says, why didn't you come? You explain to the teacher and the teacher says, well, tell me more. Whatever you say has consequence. And then you say, I don't want to be here. I want to be a place where everything I say has consequence. Where everything I say, somebody asks me what that is.

[72:33]

I don't want to be here. Okay, we hear you. When you say you don't want to be here, are you wondering still? Actually, I stopped. Want to start again? Yes. And that's what he did. He ran out, and he's walking down the road, and he starts wondering. Well, is this a good idea? I wonder if this was a good move for me to leave. You know? Maybe I should go back. And give him another chance. He's wondering. He's wondering away from the monastery. Then he's wondering back to the monastery. So he's questioning. He's being patient. He wasn't patient for a while. He stopped wondering. He didn't beat the teacher up, but he did go away. And then he recovered. Now he's wondering again. And the wondering led him back into the room.

[73:34]

And then the wondering opened him to hear what he couldn't hear before. Now he's wondering more mature. Before he was wondering, he said to Ching Lin, he said, what is Buddha? He was wondering. And then Ching Lin said, fire god, come seeking fire god. But then he stopped wondering, I think. his wondering practice, his question, his generosity. His generosity. Okay, I got entry. Rather than... I told you this story, this statement that somebody made at Noah Bod, he said, so bodhisattvas cannot have their cake and eat it too? Do you know that expression? People want to have their cake and eat it too? So somebody said, oh, so bodhisattvas cannot have their cake and eat it too.

[74:38]

That's the way bodhisattvas practice. When they have insight, they don't have their cake. And then they eat it. You eat it by not having it. So the director got his cake. Pretty good cake. And he held the cake so that he couldn't eat it. And because he didn't eat it, he didn't go into the room anymore. When you eat the cake, you go back into the room. But you can't eat the cake unless you don't have it, unless you give it away. And he didn't give it away. He was the robes. He looked so good in the robes. He couldn't release it. Yeah, right. He looked so good in the robe. He looked so good in the robe, he couldn't enjoy wearing the robes. And because he didn't enjoy wearing the robes, he didn't want to go into the teacher's room and show him his nice outfit. Look what I got on. Let me show you my nice outfit. Ha, ha. Oh, that really is a nice outfit.

[75:44]

Can I have it? Yes, here. Yeah. The thought has occurred to me also, though, if Dreyfus did not return to Foyen, that Foyen may also have not entered the room appropriately. Foyen may not have entered the room? Appropriately. with directives, you know... Yeah. Well, the teacher cannot be successful before the student. Or the student before the teacher. Or the student before the teacher. That's correct. So, Fa Yan couldn't... That's why Fa Yan was asking, why didn't you come in? Because Fa Yan couldn't get into the room. Teacher can't get into the room unless somebody comes to visit. The room without somebody visiting is not the room. You may have noticed I don't go in that room by myself. I stay there for a little while, but if nobody comes, I leave.

[76:49]

And then if somebody does come, I try not to leave. That's another word for intimacy. What's a synonym? A synonym? Buddha. Buddha. Another one? The teaching of suchness. Another one? Reality. One more. Freedom. Another one? Peace. Intimacy with suffering, intimacy with war is peace. And it's difficult to be intimate with war. Intimacy with violence... is nonviolence, is freedom from violence. Intimacy with injustice is justice. Is that like compassion? It's like compassion and wisdom. It's compassion when you understand there's no separation between the suffering of beings.

[77:56]

So with your example of me being here and someone being ten feet away from me, knowing that they're not separate from me, that's reminding myself, like, how can I... When you see someone separate, and you practice with that appearance of separation, you will realize intimacy. Because without me seeing that person, that person wouldn't exist. That's right. And without that person, you wouldn't exist. Okay. I'm listening to Marcel Proust, and he's looking at this person, and he's seeing them 10 feet away, and then he's seeing them 10 millimeters away. And then suddenly, somebody says something, and it really hurts him, and he realizes the person's inside him.

[78:59]

But he's studying this distance, he's studying this... I see my separation from you and then suddenly I feel a deep pain and I realize we're not. This is hard work. Yes? How is justice being intimate with injustice? Say again? Say again? How is justice being intimate with injustice? How is justice being intimate with injustice? And how is being intimate with injustice justice? So that question is, I would say, more to the point than what I'm about to say. So take care of that question, okay? Okay. I need an answer. Well, when I hear you say that, I think, I'm not going to give you one.

[80:01]

I was going to give you one, but no. I'm not going to play along that you need an answer. We don't need an answer. I disagree. But I don't disagree with the statement I made. I totally agree with it. And if you take care of that question for a while, at least a week, maybe next week I'll say something. But I'm not going to do it tonight. I'm not going to give it to you. Time is of the essence. Yeah, and because it's of an essence, you must now take care of that teaching. You must now explore what is justice with injustice, or what is intimacy with injustice. If you don't take care of that teaching, I'm not going to distract you by saying something about it. But if you take care of it and demonstrate that you've taken care of it, if you want to hear more about it, I'll do it, but you'll be able to tell me. But anyway, that is my teaching.

[81:06]

Buddhist do not meet injustice with injustice. We don't do that. That's not the Buddha way. Got a Buddha? Buddha is justice. Does injustice appear in the world? The Buddha comes into the world. People are seeing injustice, the Buddha brings justice to injustice in order to realize justice. It's like we bring compassion, for example, we bring compassion to cruelty, not to realize cruelty, but to realize freedom from cruelty. So, I get that, I get that. However, However... You can say it again if you want to. Three is a good number. However... I also trans... My brain somehow translates that to being passive and allowing... Stop, stop, stop.

[82:07]

Is patience passive? It could be, it could be. That's not patience. Tell me about how patience is passive. When a lot of time goes by and you do not... No, no, okay, there, right there, that's not patience. She said when a lot of time goes by, that's not patience. It's not? No, patience is now. Patience is right now to make the effort to be very present with the pain right now. That's a big effort. It's very hard for us. If you don't work at being present with your pain, your mind will naturally flip to past and future. And that's not patience. Patience is like now. And you have to make a concerted, emotional and mindful effort to be in the present. It's an action. Generosity is justice.

[83:09]

It's an action. Practicing not killing is not passive. Practicing not stealing is not passive. Practicing not lying is not passive. These are ethical actions. They're hard work. And then diligence is not passive. Diligence is generating the energy to make the effort to be mindful of these precepts. These practices are the practices of justice. And they're hard work. But how do you respond to unethical situations? How to respond to them? Yeah, that are not... For example, my own? That don't have... My own? That are unjust. My own? Yes. I confess and repent them. No, not your own. Oh, I... Wait a second. We start with our own unethical situation. I was talking to some people one time. We were having this nice conversation about them wanting to make people happy, blah, blah, blah.

[84:18]

It's great. And then they said, and then there's the evil people, the unwholesome people, the unethical people. And I said, just a second, are they somebody other than us? And they said, yeah. This is not the Buddha way. The evil people are not out there. So that's why you need to start with yourself. Confucius says that too. When you see evil out there, look back at yourself. If you see good, practice it. But if you see evil, number one is to look at yourself. If you see injustice, number one is to look at yourself. Then, if you look at yourself and be just with yourself, with the unskillfulness I see in myself, then I'm ready to deal with the injustice which I think is not me. And if I realize that the injustice which is not me is actually completing a picture of who I am, then we have justice.

[85:28]

And it's 9 o'clock. And, uh... Did Superintendent Suh say anything when he did enter the room with fire at the end of the story? Just as he's... He said something about his initial understanding of the fire and said, oh, no, no, I'm sure you didn't understand. You mean in the story did he say it? Yeah. Jeremy, do you mean when he comes back? Yeah, he comes back. And then he enters. And then he enters. And I'm wondering if he says anything about his understanding at that point. Okay, let's see what the book says. Okay. It just says, when, so the director comes back, says, what is Buddha? Fa Yen says, the fire god comes seeking fire.

[86:35]

And at these words, so the last thing they said are Fa Yen's words. At these words, they realize intimacy. Thank you.

[87:01]

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