Is there anything you'd like to discuss? Yes. When I was listening to you speak, I also felt the thought of resistance to listening to the cries of the world. And for me, it sounds like . Oh, you heard that voice? And it's something I really grapple with. I don't actually want to, for example, listen to media or listen to what's happening in the world. And so I go into more like distancing. And in some way, there's a disengagement. the resistance to listening. So, the resistance isn't like, what do you call it, the resistance isn't a moment of not listening.

[01:14]

The resistance is a moment of calling. And your resistance is listening. So you're practicing listening when you're able to be aware that you're calling in the form of saying, I'm resisting. Feeling like you don't want to listen to certain kinds of... Did you say... There's many kinds of media, and when you feel like, I do not want to listen to that media, that's a call, which you seem to be able to listen to. Is that right? Yeah, so you're listening to the call, I don't want to listen to that. Yeah, so those are two examples of where you actually did listen. So you reported two examples of where you did listen to some sense of wanting to have boundaries in what you listen to.

[02:19]

So if somebody's, yeah, if I'm talking to someone and I say, would you please stop talking, I could listen to that and I might stop talking. But even before I stop talking, I'm listening to them say, would you please stop? And that listening will grow. So you are listening somewhat, and part of what you're listening to is people suffering, and part of what you're is, I feel like I need some space or whatever from it. And you listen to that too. And sometimes you might feel like, I might say, I might be talking to someone and I might say, you know, I feel like I need some space from listening to you.

[03:23]

I could even say, I'm listening to myself and I feel, I hear a cry to have a break from listening. And I'm telling you about that now. And the person might say, you know, and I listen to them when they tell me I don't need a break. And then I might see, and I didn't take a break. I listened to you telling me that I didn't need one. And now I see I don't need one. But that conversation came from me needing a break, and listening to that, and then offering that to the person, and then maybe them listening to me, and then maybe saying, you know, I don't think you do need it, and me checking with myself and listening to myself and saying, you know, I think you're right. But it also could go, I need a break, and you might say, just a second, let me check. I still think I do.

[04:26]

And they might say, oh, okay. I didn't think you did, but if you feel really strongly that you need a break, okay. I've had quite a few conversations where I say to somebody, maybe, I don't want to do that. And they say, yes, you do. And I say, oh, yeah, you're right, I do. But sometimes I say, I don't really want to do that. And they say, yes, you do. And I say, no, I don't. And they say, okay. So there's listening, and then there's speaking, and then there's listening, and then there's speaking. There's calling and listening. So when we listen, there's actually a call that we're actually calling at the same time. So it isn't just listening. So there can be listening, and then there also could be, like, too much. But that's not the end of the story.

[05:30]

That's just the next moment of conversation. Is it possible to have a life that is not to save all beings, but still to live in accordance with Buddha's teachings? I think so.

[06:43]

I think some people are sincerely listening to the best of their knowledge, listening to the teachings of the Buddha. And they're trying to live in accord with them and they feel are they encouraged by the teachings and by trying to practice? They feel like it's what they really want to do and then when they practice they feel like they're acting in accord with what they think is valuable in their life. But they don't yet quite see that they want to have their life be for the sake of listening to all beings.

[07:48]

They don't quite see that yet. They don't quite feel that way. The conversation that gives rise to the wish to converse with everybody has not been going on long enough. So it's actually, there's a conversation between a being and enlightened being that gives rise to listen to everybody and embrace and sustain everybody. But that conversation sometimes goes on for quite a while before it comes to the point where that thought arises, I wish to embrace and sustain all beings and being sustained by all beings. And sometimes the person is practicing, trying to practice the Buddha's teaching and in conversation for a long time before they come to this, having the wish that a Buddha has.

[08:59]

So like the Buddha has students who do not necessarily have the same agenda as Buddha. So Buddha wants to embrace and sustain all beings. And all beings includes beings who do not want to embrace and sustain all beings. Buddha wants to embrace and sustain beings who don't want to help anybody, even themselves. So it certainly includes people who want to at least do something beneficial for themselves and make a positive contribution, but they don't yet have this idea of embracing and sustaining all beings. That's not where they're at on the path yet. But the Buddha's there, embracing and sustaining the people who are not, in a sense, the way the Buddha is. And the Buddha looks at the person who does not feel like the Buddha does, and the Buddha sees that that person's the same as the Buddha.

[10:03]

But the Buddha can see that person doesn't think they're the same as the Buddha. So the Buddha actually sees that, in a way, everybody is headed in this direction of eventually embracing and staying all beings. But at this point, they don't see it. Most children do not see that. Most children are like, these are my toys, and they don't belong to my siblings. Like my granddaughter, when she was maybe two or three, I referred to her mother as my daughter. And my granddaughter says, she's not your daughter, she's my mother. And I think also she was aware that her mother was also the mother of her brother. That was not important to her.

[11:05]

My mother, that's pretty much all my mother is, is my mother. She's not my father's wife. She's not my grandfather's daughter. She's my mother. It's a very limited... But now she's, you see, oh yeah, she's also my dad's wife. She's also my brother's mother. She's also my grandfather's daughter. She's also helping these other people. So as people mature, they start to see more. And they might say, actually, I think I would like to help everybody. But I didn't see that when I first started practicing the Buddhist teaching. I just thought it was good. I still think it's good for me. Now I see it's good for me, and I think it's good for other people, and I really want to help other people with this teaching.

[12:08]

Okay? Yes? How long have you been practicing? When I first had the thought that I was practicing, I don't know when that was, maybe it was maybe when I came to Zen Center and became a resident, maybe I thought I was practicing. So if you had asked me at that time, which was yeah fifty years ago I might have said well I've been practicing for three months like I started practicing when I actually moved into the temple I might have and so three months after I lived in the temple I might have said three months now it's fifty years since I moved into the temple

[13:27]

So now I could say 50 years. Does that make sense? I first came to a Zen center... So I first went to Tassara 51 years ago. I first went to practice at Zen, but I was just visiting. Then I went back to practice at Zen center in San Francisco 51 years also ago. and I became a resident 50 years ago. But around that time, if you ask me how long I'd been practicing, I might have said, well, I'd been in residence for a few months. But actually I was practicing, I was trying to practice before that, but I had difficulty being regular in my practice all by myself. And I didn't know how to practice, so I was practicing without a teacher. But I was trying. So I could say, well, I've been practicing, you know, maybe a year, but only three months as a resident.

[14:32]

And now the longer I practice, 10 years, 50 years, practice, the longer, the more I see I started practicing before the 50 years. So I can see that I started practicing before I came to Zen Center, before I became a resident. So the beginning of my practice moves as the future of my practice gets gone. The past extends. You're welcome. Yes? My understanding of compassion is that I'm curious about that too. If that is a fair way of describing it. I'm curious about the transition from the Did you say you're curious about the transition from empathy to taking action?

[15:58]

Do you not see empathy as an action? It is an action, but it isn't always an action. It's an insufficient action. Did you say empathy might be insufficient to relieving suffering? I just got these various images and one of the images I had was a going up to a temple, and you take a step, and then you say, this step is insufficient to get into the top.

[17:11]

It's true that this step is not getting to the top, but it's really a step. And now you say, well, I could have taken two steps instead of one. I could have leaped, like Superman, I could have leaped in one bound to the top, but actually I just took one step. So to call that step insufficient, I think that would be another opportunity for empathy. Like here I just empathized, and now I have this feeling like that was not sufficient. And then would you empathize with that too? which empathize with the feeling that wasn't sufficient, that would be another moment of empathy. So if someone tells me about their suffering and I empathize, and then I think, or they even say, that's not sufficient, and I empathize with that, then there's two moments of empathy.

[18:23]

And then they can say, well, that's two moments of insufficient And I listened to that too. Meanwhile, I would say I did empathy three times, which in each case was called for. And now that I've done it three times in this story, I've also demonstrated some perseverance, some patience with practicing empathy and being kind of criticized for it. Or, you know, had my empathy called in. So not only was I practicing empathy, but I was also practicing patience with my empathy being called into question as insufficient. So now I'm practicing empathy plus patience. And patience is not really empathy. Patience is compassion. So again, if somebody was, myself or someone else, was presenting suffering and there was empathy, and then the empathy was called into question and there was patience with that, then we would have demonstrating empathy and compassion.

[19:37]

Empathy is not the same as being called into question. But being called into question is part of compassion. People who are trying to help it would be appropriate that they would allow themselves to be questioned about how they're trying to help. And they would also question themselves about how they're... So empathy, at that stage of empathy, that's the stage of empathy, and being still with that, I would say would be, again, another practice. So not only am I being empathic, but I'm here Remembering I'm here, being empathic, so I'm practicing empathy, plus I'm practicing presence. Now a thought arises, this is not sufficient. I listen to that, which is compassion. So listening to it, when the person cried to you, the listening to it was compassion. And then, but some people hear the cry, which is compassion, they listen to it, which is compassion, and then they empathize.

[20:50]

Some people listen to the cry and they don't empathize. They listen to it, but they don't quite, they can't quite see themselves, you know, like, the woman next to you, she sees herself as quite sensitive. Right? Yeah. So, someone might tell me that they're, like, someone might tell me that they're just, there's this repeated knocking, you know, and it's really irritating their nerves. And I might listen to that. but it's not irritating my nerves. I can't quite understand why it's irritating their nerves. It doesn't really bother me. So I'm actually having trouble empathizing, but I do listen to them. And if I was the one doing the tapping, I might say, would you like me to stop? And they say, yes! Okay.

[21:54]

I didn't know it was so annoying to you. So it's compassionate without empathy sometimes. But you really are listening to them, and they really feel listened to. But you can't quite say, you know, I think I know how you feel. Or I think I kind of feel that way too. So then you'd have compassion and empathy. And then again, you could have various comments, both the empathy and the compassion. Like, you didn't really listen that well. Okay, I'm listening to you. Your listening was really kind of shallow. Oh, really? Huh. So I think their compassion and empathy work together and very nicely, but they're not always simultaneous. Without empathy, is it possible to be empathic without compassion? I think that's also possible. They're slightly different facilities that we have. But the process of compassion, I would again say once more time, it includes

[23:00]

being called into question from others and from oneself. And also sometimes if someone watches you, let's say someone is suffering and then they they feel that you're listening to them, they may already feel less suffering just by seeing, not less suffering, but maybe more freedom from their suffering, just by seeing how you listen to them. Then if you feel empathy and express it to them, even more freedom with their suffering. Then somebody comes over to them, to the person who's listening to you, and criticizes them for not doing anything other than listening to you and being empathic, and you receive, and then you receive the criticism, you listen to that, and maybe empathize, and this person sees you do that, and they feel even more kind of transmission of compassion.

[24:07]

So part of the life of practicing compassion is that is demonstrating how you handle external criticism of your compassion. The great compassionate beings don't get that way without some criticism of their compassion practice. Just like, again, playing the piano, you don't get to be a great pianist without your teacher's criticism of your piano playing. But the criticism might not be harsh, it might just be kind of like, Are you doing your best? Are you paying attention? Did you really play that the way you wanted to play? It could be quite tender, but still questioning. And without that kind of questioning of a skill, most people do not become masters without nobody questioning them about their practice of the thing.

[25:14]

So if there's a question or an accusation or a practice, to get good at that practice would usually involve such criticism and such questioning. It doesn't mean that you're not doing the practice, it just means... it means that you're... this is what the practice is actually like. So, oh yeah, I came doing the practice and I came here to get questioned and now I'm getting questioned, so this is good. And anybody who's watching you is learning by your example. Anything else this afternoon? Yes. The issue of criticism of compassion, I can be harsh on that in my own practice.

[26:20]

What I find is that I need to look at that criticism, having more love and kindness, if you will, from my own criticism of my compassion. fault or when I fall off the mark, my can be rather rigid in looking at that compassion that, oh, I messed up. And I find that that really gets in the way of my, I spent more time looking at the criticism and reacting from getting defensive with my own then I do getting on with it, looking at it for what it is, it's there, accepting it, it doesn't define me, but moving on. And that's a struggle for me in my practice. Yeah, a struggle, struggle or a challenge. And what you just did there again was, so you're trying to practice,

[27:26]

and then there's some rigidity about what the practice is. So you're not practicing rigidity, right? That's not your practice. No. No. I hope not. You hope not, but anyway, so... I'm not trying to. You're not trying to practice. On your list of practices, rigidity is not one of the things on the list. So you're trying to practice, and then you notice some rigidity. Okay? And then it seems like the rigidity is with the practice, maybe. But actually the rigidity is calling for the practice. And you said in some cases when you see the rigidity, you just say, oh, it's rigidity. And that's that. It's where you say, oh, it's rigidity. You kind of did what it was calling for. It was calling for you to listen to it and say, oh, hi, rigidity. And you said, and the rigidity said, thanks for acknowledging me.

[28:33]

I wanted you to acknowledge that I was here. I didn't really mean to obstruct you, but I know I look like and I'm wondering, can you love me even when I'm an obstructor? And you say, yes, I can have loving kindness towards obstructors. but it's a challenge. So here I'm practicing, here comes rigidity. Hello, rigidity. And rigidity says, you didn't fall for it. You realize that I was asking for compassion. All right. Then it's not a hindrance, it's another opportunity. But it's tricky. So we have the practice and then we have things which are practices, all the things that are not on the list of practices are calling for the practice. So they're actually helpers. They're extending the practice to areas where we didn't know we would be.

[29:39]

we thought, well, here's the practice and I'll do the practices. But really it's, here's the practices, I'll do the practices, and then things which don't seem like the practice are going to come to visit the practice, and then I'll practice with those. So they will expand the practice. I mean, by responding to them, the practice grows until it includes everything. because the practice is with everything already. But in some cases we can't see that the practice is with not the practice. But it is. The things on the practice list are inseparable from the things not on the practice list. All the things not on the practice list are embraced and sustained by the practice and embrace and sustain the practice. But being rigid is usually not on the list of practices. Being uptight, being self-righteous, thinking people. Those are not usually on the list.

[30:46]

But those are calling for the things that are on the list. So self-righteousness is calling for patience. and calling for righteousness, not self-righteousness. So here's self-righteousness, and it's met with, I hear you. You think you're better than me? Well, actually, I'm better than you. It's not asking for that. Does that make sense? But it's a struggle. It's a struggle. And without a struggle, we don't... With no struggle, we don't grow. redwood trees struggle. Yes. This is almost the same question, but I still feel a little bit of a need to discuss.

[31:47]

OK. So you have obsessive thoughts. You know you don't. It's not in my practice to say, I'm going to go with the story. I'm going to go ahead and be obsessed about this thing. So my practice is, notice the obsessive thought, but don't listen to what its contents are, or at least don't be carried away by it. Okay, so there's two things. One is, obsessive thought is the contents. And then, so, number one is the possibility to listen to the obsessive thought, Number two, listen to the contents. Number three, listen to the contents. You said not carried away. Perhaps you said twice.

[32:48]

You said not the contents, and you changed that to the not carried away. I would say listen to all three. The thought, the contents, and the carried away. Right. I was putting the two and three together in my mind. Or listen to two and three together. Is it... Like if you go down to the beach, you know, one thing is like... Another thing is get into the contents. Go in the water. Next is get carried away. The third one requires more skill than the first one. Just looking at the waves, like, okay, I accept them. I'm listening to them. Okay, now I'm actually going to get into the water.

[33:52]

I'm going to listen to that. Now I'm going to get carried away. ...to get carried away and, you know, have a wonderful, really wonderful experience. Surfboards are sometimes brought along. Swimming lessons are sometimes, have been practiced beforehand. In a way, this is all about surfing or swimming. To learn the skills of being able to, again, embrace and sustain the ocean. But it takes training. You want to be compassionate towards obsessive thoughts. So this is not about getting rid of obsessive thoughts. Obsessive thoughts, compassion is already there. It's trying to get more of the compassion realized. Maybe we have enough obsessive thoughts, we might think. And we might not even be that obsessive about that we have enough obsessive thought.

[34:58]

We just feel like, okay, I'm actually like, I think I got, at least in that way, I think I got enough obsessions. I'm okay with it. I don't need more. I'm a little bit obsessed about having maybe a little less obsessive thoughts. I'm somewhat obsessed about that, but I definitely have them. And I definitely have somebody's listening to them. And this listening is getting more and more skillful and more and more wholehearted. And the obsessive thoughts and their content and being carried away, that's happening in some pattern, but the compassion is growing, growing and [...] growing. So now we have the same, pretty much the same obsessive process, but we also have this this big, beautiful compassion which is joyful and peaceful and free without getting rid of the obsessive thoughts.

[36:12]

They're still there. They're changing all the time. And that's what's already the case, is there already is this compassion. And from this compassion, in conversation with this obsession, in the conversation between compassion and obsession, the thought of freeing all beings arises. And part of that would be the practice of listening to the obsessions. and learning to listen to obsessions more and more wholeheartedly, which means more and more realizing this compassion in conversation with the wish to save all beings arose. See the pattern? We've got obsession, when there's a conversation between obsession and great compassion, this thought of embracing and sustaining all obsession arises.

[37:18]

We have compulsions. In conversation with great compassion, the wish to embrace and sustain all compulsions arises. And then The practice which also arises in conversation between great compassion and obsession, the practice of listening to the obsessions, appears and is engaged in. Do you follow this step? It is kind of a repeat, but it's The first phase is, the conversation is not exactly repeated, the conversation is going on. And the conversation is between deluded, obsessive-compulsive consciousness and great compassion. And that conversation gives birth to the wish to free all beings from obsession and compulsion.

[38:35]

And that wish is in the compassion and now obsessive compulsion consciousness. It's in both, yeah. It's been transmitted through the conversation. In the conversation, the thought arises, I wish to have a life in regard to everything. I wish to hear the true Dharma, so I have to listen to everything. If I don't listen to some things, if I close my ears to some things, I close my ears to the Dharma. I want to open my ears to everything and to the Dharma. Wish arises from a conversation between my deluded consciousness and great compassion. Now the wish has arisen. And then the obsession comes back and says, now you had the wish, now practice with it.

[39:39]

Practice comes, again, from the conversation. It isn't that the deluded consciousness, the obsession isn't responsible for keeping the hearing going, the listening going. It's offering opportunities for the listening, which it always was. and always will be. You're welcome. Yes. And that last part, Say the last part again before negative and positive. Calling yourself into question.

[40:42]

Yeah. I think that the basis of the wish to listen is the wish to hear the Buddha's teaching and free all beings from suffering. And what's kind of paradoxical is that the way to free all beings from suffering is to let things be. Sometimes a person's crying in pain and somebody listens to them and is not and really letting them be and being allowed to suffer the way they're crying, they wake up and are free. But if you're messing with the suffering, generally speaking, you're nourishing it, you're intensifying it by not letting it be.

[41:53]

It's calling for help and you're staying shut up, or get out of here, or get over it. So if a person's crying, we wouldn't say, you're a big boy, stop crying. We would say, I hear you crying. And if you keep crying, I'm going to keep listening to you. And if you keep crying, I'm going to keep listening to you. Of course I want you to be free of your suffering, but the way you're going to be free of suffering is for you to listen to yourself the way I'm listening to you. That you're willing to listen to yourself forever if you keep crying. And I'm going to let you be that way ...be that way is the end of you being that way. And the person who is the end of you being that way is with you. They're the end of your crying.

[42:55]

They're over it. And they're totally... get you to be over it before you're over it. And if I'm trying to be over my suffering before I'm over my suffering, that's more suffering. Somebody has to show me, I'm with you as long as you have to suffer this way, I'm with you. And I have confidence that this way with you could be transmitted to you, and when you can be with yourself the way I'm with you, you will be free of being with you. You'll be free of suffering. So that's kind of paradoxical or whatever, that to be free of suffering comes from letting suffering be. And part of letting it be is to listen to it and to look at it. And if it tells you to look away, listen to that too, and look away for a while, and maybe come back, because it's going to call you to come back. So one of the ways it tells you to listen to it is to say, don't listen to it.

[44:01]

Say, oh, I hear you telling me not to listen. Once again, I'm... Oh, yes? Do we have time for one more question? I think so. You know, we started and ended today with a bow. And this was my third time. So oftentimes when I sing, there might be a song I don't know. And so I just kind of hum along. And the first time, you know, I got something that I participated to some extent. And then the second time, after hearing it, messages from you and trying to reconcile them. And maybe the answer is it's okay that they can't do that and so on. On the one hand, I heard that it is something that's significant when someone accepts the vow.

[45:04]

But I don't know if there are different ways to accept it. I'm wondering if there's a point where, because I don't necessarily know what it would mean to accept the vow. Is it okay to say something where I may not completely know what it means? So, one thing I heard you say was, is it okay to accept something when you don't really know what it means? Was there another point? Well, I think, just functionally, is it okay to say the vow without necessarily really understanding what it means? I think so. I think so. Like, is it okay to tell someone you love them before you understand what that means? Some people would say, no, I'm not going to tell you I love you until I know what it means. And the person would say, well, it's been a long time, you still haven't told me. I've been telling you that I love you, and you don't tell me that you love me, but, you know, why don't you?

[46:08]

And I'd say, well, I'm not going to say it until I know what it means. And the person might say, okay, I'll wait. The bodhisattva vow, I would say, is usually based on the bodhisattva wish. So I wish for all beings to be happy and free of suffering and I wish for the sake of that. I wish for that. That's a wish. Now I also commit to it and I vow to live my life that way. I really do want to be living a life that brings peace and joy to the world. I do want that. And I commit to it. And I don't know what that is.

[47:09]

If I commit, like a child, a child might say, when I grow up I want to be like my mommy, I want to be a mom. And they know they're not a mom yet. Right? It's something they aspire to. But most children do not understand that they don't know what a mom is. And they know somewhat. Are you following me? Yeah. Little girls don't know what a mom is. For example, they don't know what sex is like, which is part of being a mom. And when they first find out about that their mom has sex, they're oftentimes quite shocked. Sex was partly involved in them being born. And there's a lot of things about being a mom that a little girl does not understand, little boys don't understand either. But they still want to be a mom. And moms also want to be moms, but they also don't know what a mom is.

[48:21]

So, when we aspire to be a, if we would aspire to be a great compassionate being, we might really, yeah, that's what I aspire to, that's how I want to live. But I don't actually know what that is. It's more than I'll ever know. But I still may aspire to it. I aspire to complete perfect enlightenment. Some people say, no way, I'm not going to aspire to this. I do aspire to it, but I don't know completely what that will be, but I still want it. I aspire to peace. I don't know what that will be. Peace might be that I would agree with people I don't agree with right now. Peace might be that I'd become a Republican. I don't know. So wishing for something that you think you know what it is is more immature than wishing for something and you understand you don't know for sure what it is.

[49:31]

But almost everything I say, you know, I don't really know completely what I'm saying. But I still talk. You know, it's way past. So again, I'm so sorry, but he asked me and I said, okay, next time tell me no, okay? I'm sorry.

[50:19]

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