He said, how does Zazen help us hear the cries? Well, my first response is Zazen is listening to the cries. Listening to the cries helps you hear them. If you don't listen, it might make it a little harder to hear. Zazen is not necessarily to hear the cries, like you might be sitting in the zendo and it's quiet. and you start listening, and maybe you don't hear any cries, but you're listening. And then suddenly, in your own mind, you hear, help, or, or, I love you, Matt. You know, you hear that in your mind, but you didn't hear it at first, but you were listening. So Zazen, I would say, is the listening, And in that listening, you start to hear.

[01:02]

And then if you continue to listen, you hear more and more, but also deeper and deeper. So zazen is. Now you could say, does it help to sit still and quiet? I think it does. It's a little easier to listen when you're quiet sometimes. So actually, sitting in here in silence, we can hear, we can listen, and we sometimes can hear things we can't usually hear. And also I think Zazen, what did I say? As we sit, maybe we, yeah, if we sit and listen, again we might start to open to listen to things that we weren't listening to before. Yes?

[02:03]

Well, thank you for that, and I don't know, but I will research it. Yeah, if we're sitting... In silence, we might be able to not be listening for something, but just listening. And we might hear a lot of things that we wouldn't hear if we were listening for something. Like if you're listening to the sound of your children coming home, you might miss the birds in the trees. But if you're just sitting in silence, you can hear when your children come and you can hear the bird calling and you can hear your own cries too.

[03:25]

So yeah, the listening is more like being ready. To learn to listen just to be ready for whatever is given to you, whatever calls are given to you. And I was talking to, tell me your name again? Anastasia. Anastasia. And when I was talking to her, I thought of the three kinds of compassion. First kind of compassion is called compassion for beings, like compassion for this being or that being. And that's compassion. But it has the impurity of perhaps thinking that this being and other beings are separate. The next level of compassion is called compassion of elements, where you start to open to, you're listening to a cry, but

[04:35]

But you start to see that that cry is made of various factors and your view of that cry starts to expand or your understanding of the cry becomes more open and less rigid. And the third kind of compassion is called great compassion or objectless compassion. Or it's not, it's not, I have compassion for you. There's still maybe I and other, but you are not any longer an object. You're almost like a subject. you are almost like my subjectivity, which of course you already are. But also, my subjectivity is actually also, my subjectivity is objects.

[05:42]

My subjectivity is the objects. So they really aren't separate objects. And that's great compassion. But all three are part of the process. Yes. So I've understood interdependence as a core part of my experience and I'm not separate. I see things that I see here through separation. I'm trying to understand if now a sense of compassion is a sense of those things that I see, that I hear, that I smell, or I just do not suffer.

[06:46]

I have compassion for you and everyone I see in this room that I've not suffered. Is that a realistic way to look at everyone that I see? Or the noises that I hear? You know, the noise that I hear, I think it's outside, but it's not. It's outside when I am, it's outside. The outsideness is inside. So you have in your consciousness, you have this thing called outside. And some other people might, it's possible they would call those sounds inside. But inside and outside are actually inner. The things, the sounds don't announce themselves as outside.

[07:46]

They don't say, we're outside. They just, they're calling to us, and our mind says, outside or inside. So I can see I could have greater compassion over, let's say, someone in our adventure, to good mention, reflection. Maybe I can have greater compassion. It's really just having compassion for myself. Yes. I was wondering if you could tell me more about where it's gone from possession, how it went. Um, I might say that if somebody calls to me, if I listen to them, that might be appropriate response.

[09:09]

Does that make sense? If you call to me, like just now you called to me and I listened to you. And then you also said some stuff to me which led me to talk to you. So my speaking to you could be seen as not as something, excuse the expression, more than listening. So you called to me, I listened to you, and then I called to you. So now I'm calling to you. So my calling could have come from my listening. And if my listening is wholehearted, that when I call to you, you might feel like that was really an appropriate call for me to give back to you. And I would suggest that if I can learn to really listen to you, then when I call to you, you feel like we really are intimate and really we're working together.

[10:18]

Our life is not two different things. So the appropriate response to the call initially, or not exactly initially, at the very moment of the call there is the response. The call and the response are in the same moment. You call and your call isn't really there if I'm not listening. And so when I'm listening it's at the same time that you're calling. Then from that intimate calls and response in the same moment, and appropriate response comes up in the next moment, which might be that I would say something to you. And you would feel like, now we're practicing together. Or I might make a gesture, you know, like, or, or whatever. And you might feel like, yes, we're working together now.

[11:22]

I was able to call and be heard. I was able to be called and listened to. And I think the person really listened to me by the look on their face. And the look on their face is calling for me to observe and maybe say something more to them. But The part that's hard to understand is that a spontaneous response arises from the wholehearted meeting. That when you wholeheartedly meet, you don't have to then figure out what to do. in response, the wholehearted meeting gives rise to the appropriate response, to the liberating response. If we meet wholeheartedly, we have a chance to let that wholeheartedness speak rather than take a break from the wholeheartedness and start trying to figure something out.

[12:33]

However, if I do kind of like forget the wholehearted listening and start trying to figure out, that's another think that's another cry. And if I meet the trying to figure out in the same way, it's fine. Then, again, I don't get distracted from the listening. Okay? Yes? Right, right, right. Let's start with the second one.

[13:35]

somebody insults me, and somebody might even say, just to make clear, I do want to insult you. So if you think what I'm about to say is insulting, that's exactly what I want you to think. You are like a worthless junk, bum. and I said well actually since you prepared me it didn't hurt that much try again you're so arrogant and so maybe that hurts a little bit or a lot and when they say you're arrogant when they say that again it doesn't sound like they're saying listen to me with compassion So it's kind of tricky. It doesn't sound at all like they're saying, please listen to me with compassion.

[15:04]

I don't want arrogant people to listen to me. I just want to tell you that I think you're arrogant and see you later. I don't want you to listen to me. And so I don't want you to listen to me. I can learn to understand that that's a request for me to listen. And then when they tell me I'm arrogant, I think then maybe they even know they want me to listen to that. So, yeah, when people tell me they're arrogant, I think they do want me to listen to that probably most of the time. And that thought that I think they want me to listen to, that's another thing that's calling for me to listen to. But these things, they're kind of deceptive ways of being called to listen. One of the stories that really turned me towards Zen practice, a lot of the stories that turned me towards Zen practice were stories about Zen people, Zen practitioners.

[16:12]

So there was a Zen priest in Japan and he lived in a fishing village and one of the girls in the fishing village became pregnant. She wasn't married. And the parents wanted to know who was the man who she had sex with. And she said, that Zen priest was the person. And they were angry that anybody had sex with their daughter out of marriage and got her pregnant. And especially that it was a Buddhist priest who was not supposed to be doing things like that with people. So they went to him and they really called him some bad names. They really talked about what a total disgrace he was and what a terrible priest he was.

[17:15]

What a monster he was, anyway. And he said, he listened to them, and he said, I see. Is that so? I see. He just listened. And they said, when the baby comes, we're going to give it to you. You take care of it. And when the baby came, they did bring him the baby and gave it to him. And he accepted the baby. And with help from a woman who had milk, they took care of the baby for a while, maybe two years. And then the girl finally told them who the father was. It was somebody else. And they went back to the priest and they said, we're so sorry. You are a great bodhisattva. You just listened to us with compassion and you took care of our granddaughter with compassion.

[18:20]

You are a truly great priest." And he said, oh, is that so? I see. And I thought, I want to learn how to do that, to respond to insult with compassion and also praise with compassion. But the insult does feel different than the praise. They don't feel it. When I thought about the story, I thought if the insult felt the same as the praise, the story wouldn't be as that interesting to me. It's to respond the same to the difference, to hear that you're a great priest, you're an average priest, you're a below average priest, to listen to all those cries with the same compassion. I wanted to learn to do that. You're way above average priest. You're way below.

[19:22]

You're super arrogant. You're a little bit arrogant. You're not even worthy. You can't even be arrogant. You're so worthless. Anyway, all this stuff, basically to listen to it all. That's what I wanted to learn. I don't know if what I just said took care of your earlier question. Did you have more? Yeah. I think feeling overwhelmed, if I feel overwhelmed, that seems to me to be a cry. I'm feeling overwhelmed. That I'm feeling overwhelmed is calling for compassion. Like somebody might feel like... that person is so overwhelming, so overwhelmingly obnoxious, so overwhelmingly arrogant, so overwhelmingly bigoted, you know, that I can't observe them with eyes of compassion.

[20:39]

And then I say to the person, okay, but can you listen to your inability to listen with compassion? And she says, Oh, yeah. So that person or that situation or even your inner cry might be so overwhelming that you just can't listen to it, but you might be able to notice that you can't listen to it and listen to that. And then expand that listening to eventually listen to the thing which you previously couldn't. The theory of practice is we will be able, through practice, to expand our listening function and listen to things that we weren't able to listen to before. To listen with compassion to cries that were too intense before. To listen with compassion means, as the compassion becomes wholehearted, it means to listen and not tense up.

[21:41]

to listen and be relaxed and open to something that earlier we would have tensed up to and closed to. And again, listen with compassion to our tense, when we tense up, oh, I tensed up. And I can observe that tensing up to that pain. I can observe the tensing up with eyes of compassion. But I can't quite like look at the pain yet and be relaxed. But I can look at the tensing up and be relaxed with tensing. Okay? Yes. You were where? You were duty duty, okay. And as soon as I got inside this room, because I'm very uncomfortable to be there, because it's very painful, I looked at this woman that was the one being accused, and I really felt compassion for her.

[23:02]

I felt that I could be a juror and send her to jail. I don't know her story. I knew what was the case, but I don't know if she was guilty. So what is the position of a Buddhist? Can you hear me? Sorry, even if she was really guilty, is it compassion to send this person to jail? Sorry, I was not selected as a juror, but... Yeah, usually people who are practicing Buddhism are usually rejected from juries. You can also get out, just so you can say you're Buddhist and you get out. You could also say I'm Christian and probably get out too.

[24:07]

If you say I'm a Christian and Jesus says those who live in glass houses should not throw rocks. Did he say that? Let the one who is without sin throw the first stone. You can just say that and get out on that one. Yes. I said that and I got off. So what do you say about that? With all this teaching about compassion and listening and pretty much being nonjudgmental, otherwise you can't... It's not so much being nonjudgmental. The practice isn't that you're not judgmental. The practice is that you're not enslaved by your judgments. Like I could still think, you're a good woman. I could still have that judgment, good woman.

[25:11]

But that could turn into a prison for me. And if it's a prison for me, it could be a problem for you. You might feel really insulted that I, not only do I think you're a good woman, but I'm attached to that idea. And you feel judged, yes, in a positive way, but you also feel like I'm trapping you into being what I think you are. So I feel uncomfortable because I'm attached to my positive judgment of you. So Buddhism will let you make judgments and honor them and respect them so wholeheartedly. and listening to your judgments so compassionately that you don't dwell in them. And you see the truth in your judgment which leaps beyond your judgment. You see the reality that's in your judgment if you're not rigid about it and attached to it.

[26:21]

But it isn't that we get rid of judgments, because that would be like not being human. It would be like having a lobotomy. So normal human beings do judge, but what's uncommon on humans is to judge so wholeheartedly that you're not stuck in your judgment. And the way to judge wholeheartedly is to listen to your judgments with great compassion. Because all of your judgments are calling for compassion. Even your positive judgments are calling for compassion. And so many Zen stories are about People who have negative judgments and the teacher helps them see that they're attached to their negative judgments and they become free of their negative judgments.

[27:24]

But there's also some stories about people who have positive judgments and are stuck in their positive judgments. And being stuck in positive judgments is stressful. So then the teacher helps them not be stuck in their positive judgments. So any kind of judgment can be a trap, but if you observe the judgment and even being trapped in it, it opens the doors to wisdom without eliminating the negative judgment or the positive judgment. What comes to my mind is the Zen story of a samurai comes to see a Zen teacher in Japan and he says, teacher, please teach me the difference between hell and heaven. And the teacher says, well, I'm sorry, I can't teach you the difference because you're so narrow-minded and arrogant that I wouldn't be able to teach you anything.

[28:33]

You're such a fool. And the samurai skillfully whips out his sword and is about to chop the Zen master's head off. And the Zen master says, this is hell. Samurai drops his sword, drops to his knees, and says, thank you. Thank you, teacher, for showing me what hell is. And the teacher says, this is heaven. This is observing with eyes of compassion. And from that observation, you can teach people what heaven and hell are. But the judgments were going on.

[29:33]

The teacher was using the judgments and not being caught by them. To show the samurai who has judgments, like, he called me a fool? I have a judgment about him. And he was caught by it. But then the teacher showed him. And he saw, oh, and then he wasn't caught by it. it anymore and not being caught by what you think is heaven. And then not being caught by what you think heaven is, is heaven. Being caught by what you think heaven is, is hell. Being caught by what you think hell is, is hell. Being not caught by anything is heaven and then not being caught by that is heaven again. So we don't get rid of judgments. As Hrishikarishi said, he didn't say that, he said, he was talking about discrimination.

[30:37]

He said, non-discrimination is not not discriminating. And being non-judgmental is not not judging. Being non-judgmental is to study everything. no matter what it is, you study it. And then you don't get trapped by your judgments. Like, I think you're a nice person, but I study it. So then I get trapped and think you're a nice person. You might say, it's okay, you can get trapped in that. That's an exception to the rule. That would be good to get trapped in. And then I hear that, and I say, and I'll study that. He said, no, don't study that, because you might stop. You might stop thinking I'm a nice person. And I say, I might. It's true. He said, well, don't do that. With other people, you cannot get stuck in thinking they're nice people. But in my case, you should be stuck in that.

[31:37]

And the Zen master could say that. If you want to think I'm a great teacher, go right ahead and get stuck in that. That's the one thing it's okay to get stuck in. Yes? I have a difficult time speaking in public, so am I taking the time to gather my words? I'm finding that I have a little time of many of the Zen stories that we hear here. Like the one you shared about the monk accepting the child that was not his. There's a part of me that feels like there's so much violence in these stories. And I remember a Q&A from a talk that Linda Ruth gave them, where somebody in the Sangha asked about compassion also meaning no.

[33:01]

That compassionate yes, can it be balanced by the existence of compassionate no? which brings up this feeling of self-care, of taking care of this body, taking care of this mind, this heart. And in order to be able to sit and be still, listening, learning to listen, and hopefully cultivating a wider space from which to respond. And where I struggle is like, I'm having a hard time finding in many of our Zen stories examples of the no. You know, examples of the liberative, liberated, wholehearted, compassionate no. Would you like some of those?

[34:03]

Yes. Okay. I'm not going to say no yet. I'm going to give you one. the prototypic, sort of like the first Zen story, in a way, is the story of the founder of Zen in China, this Bodhidharma guy, who, yeah, he's Avalokiteshvara. He's like listening to the cries of the world. And he's sitting in a cave, listening to the cries of the world. And a sincere person comes to him and says, please, please accept me as your student. And this great, compassionate bodhisattva says, no. He says, no.

[35:04]

And that person became the second ancestor. And the Buddha, the Bodhidharma saying no was part of his compassion. That was his compassionate response to that request. And that person accepted that compassionate response and met it and they became the tradition. A monk traveled in India, a monk traveled many miles because he felt he needed help he felt his understanding was not complete. And a divine being said to him, there is somebody who can help you. His name is Shakyamuni Buddha, and he lives way over there. And this person walked all that way to where he heard the Buddha was, and he went to the place the Buddha was, and the monks there said, he's not here, he went to town.

[36:08]

he's begging for lunch. So he went to town and he saw the Buddha that he came to see, the great compassionate Buddha who was begging for lunch. And he went up to the Buddha and he respectfully said, Master, I have a very important question to ask you. Please, please help me. And the Buddha said, This is not a good time." The Buddha said, no. The great compassionate Buddha said, no, because he was busy doing something else. And that this person said, but Master, we don't know what will happen this afternoon. Please, give me the teaching.

[37:18]

The Buddha said, ìNo, this is not a good time, sir.î And then again he said, ìWe donít know what life holds. Please give me the teaching.î And the Buddha said, ìTrain yourself thus,î and gave him the teaching for him. And this monk woke up within a minute The Buddha said no twice. Bodhidharma said no. Sometimes no is just exactly what the student needs in order to ask their question more deeply. If you answer right away, maybe they can't hear it. So you say no. Then they ask again, and you say no. Then they ask again. Now they're ready. Now they're going to listen. And then you give it. and it works. So saying no is definitely part of transmission of the teaching to help the people.

[38:27]

Yeah? So in the story about the monk who accepted the child, would there potentially have been a scenario in which he could have said wholeheartedly, no. Sure, of course. Your question relates to that lady's question back there. When you're wholeheartedly listening, the appropriate response is spontaneous. It's not fixed. Sometimes it's like, okay, give me the baby. Sometimes it's like, I got another idea. You know? From this wholehearted listening, the unlimited resources of wisdom are available. And the right response is not fixed. We have tremendous opportunities to do things that no one could even, you know, we get into situations where it's like right or wrong or left or right.

[39:32]

Sometimes the right response has nothing to do with the way it's set up. It's like totally unexpected. the appropriate response. And it's already built into the wholehearted listening. In this case, he did say yes. He did take care of the baby. But there's other stories about this guy where he said he actually retired fairly young because he couldn't say no anymore. He said, I'm getting too soft. He already had many enlightened disciples, but he couldn't really like offer them the energy that they needed to kind of like frustrate them into awakening. Compassionately frustrate people who are headed in the wrong direction is definitely part of the practice. And also telling somebody, here's another story. a monk came to a great teacher named Matsu and he asked him a really technical question about the teachings of Nagarjuna, about the, you know, hundred negations and the fourfold alternatives.

[40:46]

And he said, beyond the hundred negations and the fourfold alternatives of Nagarjuna, what is the great way? And the great teacher says, I have a headache. I can't talk to you about this. You should go see my student so-and-so. And then he went to see the next guy. And the next guy says, I'm so tired today, I can't talk to you. Would you go see the next guy? He went to see the next guy, and the next guy says, When it comes to this, I have nothing to say. And then he went back to the teacher and said, Your disciples didn't help me. And the teacher said, The first guy was white, the second guy was black. It's a great Zen story about no, no, no. But I guess our faith is each one of them was really listening and trying to, in that listening, let that listening, let that listening give the answer.

[41:56]

There's not me in the listening. I have become listening. And from that listening comes, I have a headache. That's the teaching. This is not a good time. That's the teaching. But he couldn't... This is not a good time. That was the teaching. He asked for the teaching and the Buddha said, this is not a good time. He didn't understand. So he asked again. Buddha gave him a teaching again. He didn't understand. He asked again. Then the Buddha gave him another teaching, and he did understand. But he wouldn't have understood the third one, probably, if there weren't the first two. So no is, Zen is actually the school of compassion that has, in a way, the most no's. The most like, not, you know, like, people, would you please be compassionate to me? Nope. Other schools are like, please be compassionate to me. Okay. But Zen has this... So as you know, we have this thing called tanga-ryo.

[43:07]

Tanga is a word which means itinerant monk. And ryo means room. So when you go to a traditional Zen monastery, they have a room for traveling monks to stay in. They can't go right into the monk's hall. They have to have like a decompression zone, so to speak. There's a word for like when you go someplace, it's like a holding tank or something, where they have to go sit for a while before they're allowed to go into the regular hall. So, and here too, and even at Tassajara, when people want to do a training, they have to sit for five days before they can join the community. It's kind of like a big no. Five days of no, you can't be here. You have to just sit here. And if you can't accept this, then you can't enter. So there is this feeling, it's not just an open door, you have to make an effort to get in.

[44:13]

in all those stories in the New Yorker, you know, all those cartoons in the New Yorkers of the guys, the old man sitting or the old woman sitting up on a little shelf on the side of the mountain and these people climb up. By the time they get there, you know, it's pretty funny. And whatever the guy says, it's funny after they make that climb or not, which is funny. So making an effort sometimes requires some no's. Otherwise it's too easy and then people don't open. So no is definitely part of it, part of the practice, part of compassion practice. And of course yes is too. And there's also, maybe even more, is maybe. We have yes, no, maybe, and we also have a lot of other stuff. We have the whole universe.

[45:18]

You know? Yes and yes. You know, I sit well with the responding from holy listening and silence and silence. The way that that unfolds appropriately. That's all well and good. And the situation you just described, it's in the context of a relatively safe environment. So perhaps the question of this no, this almost engaged no around violence, around situations that no one is coming to some person like, oh, there is a calling in this violence, perhaps. There is pain in this person exhibiting violence.

[46:21]

Yet. Yet what? In these stories, I feel like there's not quite what feels like a lack of proactive peacefulness or attention. You want one? Sure. But before I tell you, I just want to say all violence is calling for compassion. I just want to say that. All violence is coming from All violence is calling for compassion. So, a friend of mine who was an Aikido teacher, he's a Caucasian Aikido teacher. Aikido is a school of, you could say, martial art. It was founded in Japan.

[47:24]

And Aikido means, Ai means loving, and Ki means, Ai means loving and Ki means energy. And do means way. Aikido is the way or the path of loving energy. So my friend, Caucasian-American, was a teacher of this and he went to Japan to study it. And he was on a trolley in Japan, sitting in the back of the trolley. And the trolley stopped and a big, like, a huge Japanese man got on the and he was like staggering down the aisle, you know, with threatening gestures and facial expressions as though he were going to hit somebody, maybe making some sounds like, what are you looking at? You know, big, apparently violent man in the trolleys.

[48:26]

And my friend thought, when it gets to me, I'm going to show him a thing or two. but he never got to my friend. The trolley stopped and a small elderly man, about seventy years old, got on, small though, got on and when he saw this violent man he said, what's the matter sweetheart? Is that proactive? Yeah, he was proactive. He didn't just go, whoa. He said, whoa, what's the matter, sweetheart? Can I help you, darling? And the big, violent, frightened, suffering giant broke down into tears and said, yeah, I just lost my wife.

[49:31]

Thank you so much. Is that proactive? Yeah. Proactive in the face of violence. And the Zen master, he was a samurai, a dangerous dude, saying, teach me, master. And he says, no. That's proactive, too, but it doesn't sound sweet. And then he says that stuff, which doesn't sound sweet, but it's proactive compassion. Then the guy becomes even more violent. And just in the nick of time, the master says, this is heaven. And he wakes up. Here's another one, a Woody Allen one. And I know Woody Allen's been indicted for some cruel behavior.

[50:37]

But anyway, in the movies, one time he was being inducted into prison. Do you know this story? Yeah. He's a new prisoner in prison, and the head guard is standing there meeting the new inmates. And Woody Allen's like the tiniest of the inmates. And the head guard also has these huge other guards standing around him, and they all have like clubs and guns. And in a very threatening and violent way, the head guard says, you know, If you follow the rules here, things may go OK. If you don't, it won't be good. Any questions? Pretty violent, at least verbally and facially.

[51:43]

And Woody Allen raises a shaky hand and says, do you think it's OK to pet on a first date? and totally disarms. They can't even get angry. They don't know what to do with it. But anyway, it disarms the violence. This is like possible, is to disarm. the violence. But it takes a lot of training. I think Woody Allen grew up in the streets of New York where a lot of threatening people threatened him and he learned how to tell jokes to save his life. The same with Zen masters. As you may have noticed, I tell a lot of jokes to save my life. ... You're excused.

[52:54]

Are you going over to the tea house now? I'm going to go over there too. I have a question for you, or the tea house. You know what a Kinsley is? I have a quick Kinsley question. I'll be right over. Well, it's almost lunchtime. Is that enough for today? Yes, you may. Yeah, go ahead. Yes? Yes? So, the transformation of what we're listening, the awareness that we're listening, often with some subjectivity, based on maybe our subconsciousness? So that. So that's why we're studying that, so that we can do this whole part of things better.

[54:01]

And, yeah, I don't know what I'm going to say, but in my experience, it is, yeah. I have to stop thinking about the church. Maybe I'll talk about it later. It might be sad not to be on a jury, but if there was sadness, that would be calling for compassion too. And action. Once again. Action.

[55:04]

Action. I don't know what you mean by action. I just said, if I felt sad about not being on a... Prison what? Abolition. Prison abolition. What about it? Just bringing maybe some of the stories are old a little bit and just bringing some now into... Bring some now into the Zendo. Sounds good to me. You can bring now into the Zendo anytime. I'll welcome it. Thank you. Did you do it? Did you bring now? Okay. Thank you so much.

[55:52]

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