Around 40 years ago, I was talking to someone in San Francisco, and I felt some kind of like, it felt kind of dusty in this part of my heart, part of my body. I felt kind of dusty, dry, a little bit obstructed. And so I said to the person, I love you. And it kind of opened that area up. But it was still obstructed, so I said, thank you. And then it opened up some more. And then I said, I'm sorry. And it opened up more. So today I say to you, I love you, thank you, and I'm sorry.

[01:12]

Sorry for anything I've done that has disturbed or discouraged pained you, made your practice less alive in any way. So I'm sorry. I beg you to be compassionate to each other and include me. Thank you. So I mentioned before the process of the practice becoming the Mahayana started, it seems in some ways started, at least one story has started with developing the perfect wisdom, nita.

[02:21]

And then that insight into emptiness of all phenomena spread to the meditation practice, and then it finally spread to the practice of ethics. And we spent a lot of this intensive discussing the Mahayana concentration practice. Concentration practice, which, whether there's a concentrated body in mind or a distracted body in mind, realizes that there's no duality between the two and doesn't hate distraction and doesn't attach to concentration. We've talked about that a lot. And so I've been kind of about the Mahayana Bodhisattva precept practice.

[03:25]

But being careful about that because I didn't want to bring it up if there wouldn't be an opportunity for you to deal with the issue and that something was brought up and you couldn't. you know, like we're going into Sashin, and it's not so easy maybe to discuss things during the Sashin, except in Doksan, or even the Dharma talks, it's maybe a little bit less open than in a class setting. But I thought I could say that might not be too disturbing. Shall I try? I don't know if I need to write. Let's just maybe imagine that I wrote on this side of the board. I practice the precepts. And that attitude is delusion.

[04:34]

I practice the precepts. Particularly if I think that I know what they are and other people don't and stuff like that. The other side is the precepts practice me. That's enlightenment. Practice the forms and ceremonies of Zen training. That's a diluted approach. The forms and ceremonies of Zen practice embrace and sustain me and lift me up and carry me forward on the path. That's enlightenment. And I've been emphasizing that the enlightenment and the delusion are not, they don't constitute a duality. They're a duality, but they're not really separate. I don't see any duality in the duality.

[05:39]

What I've been suggesting is that the the pivot, the pivoting, the constant pivoting between I practice the precepts and the precepts practice me. I practice Zen and Zen practices me. That pivoting is where the precepts come from. The pivoting between I practice and I do practice and practice does me. The interpenetration of that gives rise to the Buddha Samadhi. The precepts interacting in this way, embracing me and me embracing them, the diluted and the enlightened understanding or realization of the precepts interacting thoroughly, that's where the precepts come from.

[06:42]

They come from that. And from that, precepts that come from this dynamic, as we say, whole works, the whole universe working in this way, from there comes the Buddhas. It's not that the Buddhas teach the precepts. The precepts are first, and they are the way Things embrace us and we embrace things. The way that actually works is partly perceptible and partly imperceptible. And I'd rather it involve an imperceptible part and an imperceptible part. And then the way that they interact is also imperceptible and perceptible. And that interaction is where the precepts are born. So in one of the most influential sutras in East Asian Buddhism on the bodhisattva precepts is called the Brahmanet Sutra.

[07:46]

In that sutra it says that these precepts, these bodhisattva precepts, are the source of all Buddhas, the origin of all bodhisattvas. That's where they come from. And then from the precepts, then they teach the precepts and they teach them by talking about them. But then they say that what I'm saying to you about the precepts is coming from the precepts, but it's just words. And you should also say the precepts. Now scripture says, I'm going to say this, I'm going to say these precepts once a month or twice a month. I'm going to keep doing that. I come from these precepts and I'm going to keep saying them. And I encourage you to say them too on a regular basis, like twice a month. So we receive these precepts from the Buddhas.

[08:48]

They transmit them to us. They come from the precepts. They teach us the precepts. And then we together have a chance to realize them and realize them. And then we continue to say them and think about them and try to practice them. And we will continue this deluded approach. We'll continue. We will continue thinking, I practiced Odyoki. I practice sitting. I practice sustaining this schedule. That thought, that perspective will keep rising. It will not be eliminated. But we can learn to not cling to it, not we can learn to be compassionate to it. And if we don't cling to it, we can do it more thoroughly. And when we do the lulu approach thoroughly, That's where the mountain of I do the precepts meets the water of the precepts do me.

[09:55]

And in that dance, the Buddhas are born. And then what do they do? Avoid evil. Do good. But they don't stay attached to what I just said. They say, listen. Listen to what I say, please. Be respectful. and then don't attach to it. Without clinging to them. But again, in early Buddhism, the Buddha taught this thing called, in Sanskrit, Shila Bharata Paramarsha. And in Pali, I think it's Sila Bharata something. There's no... So it's... Anyway, in both cases it means clinging to your understanding or conventional understanding of the precepts.

[10:57]

And it says that It's an incorrect view of the precepts. When you see them in a way that you can cling to them, this view drops, is abandoned upon stream entry. When you enter the path through insight into the precepts, person, when you obtain that insight, you stop attaching to the precepts. And you continue to practice them, just like you did before, but now you practice them without being attached to your ideas of them. Or, anyway, the conventional meaning of them. There is a conventional meaning. It's a good tool. Which we, you know, write down and and respect. So I thought maybe that would be a little bit we could talk about concerning the precepts.

[12:04]

And also since this is probably our last class venue, if there's other things that you'd like to bring up, you're welcome to do so. Yes. I still have some questions about what happened in the Dharma talk and the discussion, the question and answer. Yes. Was there a reason you told that story in conjunction with the song? I found it very disturbing. Did you see why I brought the song up at all? Did the song make sense to you that I brought that up? I found the song disturbing.

[13:11]

You found the song disturbing? In fact, I felt that the description Grace gave, which was revulsion, That's the state I was in during the whole conversation. But did you find the song, when you heard the song in the lecture, did you have a problem with the song? Yes. Do you want to know why I brought the song up? Yes. So I brought the song up because I thought it was an example. The song says, when an irresistible... force or something like that, like you, meets an immovable object like me, something's got to give. So I thought that was like this. Between these two, something moves. And then I forgot the next, so something like when an irrepressible smile such as yours meets an implacable heart such as mine.

[14:16]

So when the enlightenment, when the smile, when Buddha's irresistible smile comes, it melts my implacable heart. That's what I was thinking. Yes? Right. And then when I saw the thing, sometimes, someday, somehow, someone will be kissed, I thought, we will be kissed we will be kissed by enlightenment someday, somehow. Yes, and the word insist, when I saw the... Uh-oh, I can't say insist. It didn't occur to me I couldn't say insist. And if I bring up the word insist, if I bring up the word insist, and then people feel that that word is not being brought up in an appropriate time, then I welcome people to... But that's a problem, and so now you're telling me that.

[15:23]

Yeah, yeah. So I insist someone will be pissed. Those lines didn't seem problematic to you? But now they do. And so I cannot tell what lines might be problematic. Yeah, well, I understand you're telling me that now. But if I look at a line, sometimes I think that line's problematic. I've learned a few lines that I understand are problematic. You have too, right? I've learned a few lines, so when I see those lines, I say, oh, those are problematic lines. I don't know are problematic. For example, I wrote an echo for Martin Luther King's birthday, which you heard, and I wrote that echo a long time ago, which some of you heard.

[16:39]

I was happy with it and I didn't get any, what do you call it, I didn't get any negative feedback on it. People really appreciated the verse, I mean the echo. And so I said, in the Dharma realm there is no something like that, no increase or decrease, no self or other, and I said no black or white. But when I wrote it, people didn't have a problem with it. But 15 years later, people said, I think we should take out the no black and white. So we took it out. But when I first wrote it, I want to say that in the Dharma realm, there's no black or white. And I said it, and it seemed to work. I'd like to try it out. But if I try things out, and then people say, that doesn't work for us, that really disturbs us, and we find it painful and so on, then I say, oh. So how much can I try stuff?

[17:42]

Well, if I try something that I know is problematic, then if I get in trouble, I say, well, I thought it would be and it was. But sometimes I try things and I think maybe they won't be. And they are. So my expression, open to feedback. Everything I do is questionable. Questionable. If I say it to people, they say, oh, I don't think so. But I'm saying you can question anything I do. But I don't necessarily myself have the ability to question anything I do. I haven't quite learned that. So I need others to question. And yeah, I need others to question me. So now you're questioning me. But in fact, when I read that line, I didn't go, oh, that line is problematic. the people who sang that song in my youth, you know, like Bing Crosby sang that.

[18:49]

I didn't think of Bing Crosby as like, this guy's really dangerous. I thought it was Fred Astaire. Fred Astaire also sang it, yeah. And so they're kind of like mild-mannered people, so if they sing it, they got by with it. But again, I thought it was... To me, it had life and love in it. However, now I'm hearing that for others, it had oppression and violence. But I didn't see that when I first did it. Now I do. For now, I probably won't sing it again in public. But that's why I thought of the first two lines and refrains. The last line, I actually thought, you know, should I take out kiss? Because if I say kiss, that's kind of dangerous.

[19:52]

So I did take a chance when I left the kiss in. And I didn't think, you can't say, don't say, no. I didn't think, you can't say that. You can't sing that. You can't quote that. I didn't think that. But now I say, well, I guess maybe, not that I can't, but if I do say, don't say no, I have to be very careful. I apologize if I wasn't careful enough when I brought up that song and when I read that line. I'm sorry. And then You say, why did you bring up the childhood? I didn't bring it up. It was given to me by my unconscious. And actually, I didn't bring the song up either. The song came up in me when I was thinking about talking about this.

[20:55]

I don't bring up what's in my consciousness. So I think when these songs and stories came up in my mind, I guess the problem was I didn't think, you can't share your mind with people. You have to keep that to yourself. Or if you do share your mind with people, You had to, like, ask them if... And another thing that came in my mind, which I didn't say, and I was actually going to talk to Fu and Me about it, but I was going to say, in the Lotus Sutra, the Buddha is asked to teach. But the Buddha says, no, I don't think so. Because what I teach is just going to disorient people and perplex them and discourage them. And I was wondering if I should in the talk last Sunday.

[22:03]

But I didn't ask them what they thought of that. And I didn't bring it up, but now I'm bringing it up. That part of what I'm doing is that I have, and I think, can people deal with this? And then I often think, no, they can't. So I won't bring it up because I think that'd be too disturbing. But I did bring up what I brought up. I thought it would not be too disturbing. But I have many other things to bring up, which I think are just too disturbing, so I don't bring them up. And I don't, but I also don't, I don't like suppressing, but I do not bring up what's in my consciousness. But I do try to be careful with how I deal with it and how much of it I share. I shared the song. I felt good about the song. I thought it was, again, a thing from my childhood that I enjoyed hearing that song.

[23:11]

I thought I was going to share it, but I was wrong. But that's not the end of the game. That's just where I say it. You question me, and then I respond, and then you get to, again, respond to how I respond to your response. So if I hadn't told the story, the situation would have been less disturbing. But I did tell the story, I consciously told the story, but I did not put that story in my consciousness. It came up out of my body, where my stories and songs are stories. Did you have your hand raised back there, Sarah? Did you have your hand raised? No, it's just my face. Yeah. Yes, Emma?

[24:15]

Erna? Pardon? Erna? I just sort of took what was the teaching from one person and sort of resolved the darkness myself. And it might be illumination myself. So that's been very difficult. Thank you, and I don't mean I don't think I'm compassionate to the dark in a thorough way by myself. Just like any darkness in this story we're dealing with, of this incident, I don't think I, by myself, can deal with that darkness.

[25:17]

I think being compassionate to the dark can do with others, and part of being compassionate, which... I've said before, I'll say again, part of being compassionate to darkness is to probe it and question it. You don't just like say, okay, darkness, you can be here. That's a start. But say, can I tell people about you or can I discuss you with other people? Can I question you? So I would encourage us not to, I would encourage me not to try to deal with it alone, but deal with it together with others. Then we can deal with it thoroughly, with compassion. And then I say that's how we will find the light in the darkness. Yes?

[26:19]

I guess I've been around a lot of situations lately where there's race things triggered or gender things triggered, indigenous communities, African American, women, male. And the idea of like the white fragility for me, the fact that you're opening to me is so enlivening and beautiful. And it's not possible for any of us to go into a public situation and not trigger people. This is my experience. And I have triggered people. And I have appreciated when people have said triggered by the way you said that or what you said. And I just can't see any way forward without a kindness to the dialogue. So I really respect the way you're allowing women who have been triggered to speak. That to me.

[27:21]

Thank you. And I also appreciate the way people have told me the problems they have in a respectful way. People have told me that you know, the pain and fear and all the other negative things that came up in response to what I said, they've done so respectfully, which I, yeah, I think that's the way to start difficult dialogues, if possible, with respect. And some people who we really disagree with, if we approach them with respect, they might listen to us because they often think that they're worthy of respect. So if you respect them, they think you're intelligent and they listen to you. If you don't respect them, they might think you're stupid and not listen to you, because you should, don't you know, you should respect me?

[28:28]

But anyway, I appreciate that everyone who has been telling me about the incident on Sunday, that they told me in a respectful way, very kind that way. So, I'm questionable and the questioning goes, well, with respect. Now sometimes respect can also again take the form of screaming. For me, a person could scream at me and I sometimes can realize, oh, people had sometimes screamed at me and I felt like, oh, I just see this huge wall of flame of love, you know, it's really brilliant and awesome, but I know where it's coming from so it can be really like, wow, Just a second, I'll bear it with you. Yes, David. I'm just a little nervous, so I don't want to be late in what we're discussing.

[29:32]

I don't know if the problem was, for me, was you as much as it's a problem. Yeah. In religious life. Yeah. And I'm really worried that I left feeling the word's force resist. penetration were all about the dance between this delusion and enlightenment. Whereas for me, dancing is the joy of it. I just wonder about all that. And if I was the little girl with someone sitting on my chest, and I have been that little girl with someone sitting on my chest, I'd rather kiss them than take a punch. And that's your story, as well as all our stories. And for a woman to be told to examine the darkness in her own life, to me, it's reminiscent of what my mother with mental health issues was told by the priest.

[30:35]

And as I grew up, or the women that needed to get on dementia, where I grew up, they were told, Basically to reflect and pray more And live that life and I think as an institution We have to be cautious of it. I've looked up the requirements for that The I a But they don't see any clear statement what that really means actually on the websites other than When I did say I was upset, my confidence was broken and taken to your system. It caused more fear in me in terms of where is the help and the support to talk about something openly when I need to. And I love you. And I thank you. And I'm sorry.

[31:37]

I'm sorry for that. I don't need a comment on that, but I needed to state something as a man about support. Thanks for saying something as a man. And particularly I appreciated when you said, when you noted of a priest encouraging someone to pray. that encouraging people to pray is kind of like, well, don't priests do that? Yeah. But you said they should be cautious when they do it. So even standard priestly activity, encouraging people to pray or encouraging people, like here we chant our vows, you know, our bodhisattva vows, I think it's good to point out, well, Be cautious when you chant, when you do your prayers. I appreciate that. You didn't say, priests should stop and pray.

[32:41]

You didn't say that. You said that maybe they should be cautious. I really appreciate that respect of something that you are questioning. Well, I hear you, and I would say my practice is my practice, and people do have the right to tell me how to practice. But maybe you're not there yet. Yeah, well, I'm daunting too. Experience for me, I did not want to come here this morning. But I thought if I don't come here, then people would really have a hard time with that. So I'm here for you to tell me how to practice. But I recommend you do it skillfully. I'll probably survive. But I'm not telling you what to do, but I'm saying you can tell me what to do.

[33:47]

Doesn't mean I'll do it, but you can tell me. You can question me. But still, my practice is my practice. And my practice is also your practice. Tell me how to do it. And you can question me about whether I'm doing it the way you told me to do it. Yeah, right. So if I'm in the power, you get to tell me what to do with it. Yeah. You get to tell me... Well, I'm telling you, and you can try it, and then you can say, well, I tried it and it didn't work. But this morning, how did it go? This one.

[34:50]

Yeah. I appreciate you came. You'll be glad when Sesshi's over? I don't feel blamed. I don't feel blamed. I feel you telling me that this is a big issue for religion in general. Yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you so much. Yes? Well, it was just occurring to me that I was in the January intensive group in 2018, and probably on this very day, there was an inauguration, and then the next day there was a... because you wanted to help everyone cope with how sick they were with the change in administrations by having a ceremony in which you would bestow something upon us.

[36:30]

And people had a lot of negative feedback about that. There was a what? A ceremony? Oh, I wanted to have a body stop the ceremony. Yeah. And people didn't like that idea because they felt that it was another case of a white man having... being in a position of power. But anyway, obviously our civilization is in this, we're making this leap forward toward greater equality. It's difficult for every, you know, things are all stirred up and people have been programmed in certain ways and they're having to have their programs all, you know, messed with or whatever.

[37:37]

And so it's a question of everybody just, as you said, trying to be respectful and flexible and listen. others, and I think you're trying to do that. It's bound to be a messy process. Sal and Sarah? Oh, I just wanted to About me. Afterwards, I felt yucky is the word I kept using for myself. You know, I didn't get any more articulate than that. I just felt yucky. But I came outside and there were a bunch of people standing, men and women standing to walk.

[38:39]

Then I got to keep talking with some of the people who were here. And you just said the expression, you know, don't try to explore the darkness by yourself. And I want to say that worked for me. That it was really, it felt healing. In this conversation with people here who were being compassionate and listening and listening to each other, I felt like I could live with the darkness and see some glimmer of light. So I just wanted to encourage other people to give it a try. Sarah? I wonder if you would give me that piece of paper that I gave you. Yes. Would you give me that? May I have it? Yes. I often talk to people and thinking, I'd like to clarify for myself what happened, and I actually wrote something down, so I thought... Yeah.

[39:48]

I shared it with the grads. You can stand here if you'd like to address, speak to people. Um... Yeah, and I also really appreciate all the conversations, including with you. Yeah, so I was thinking about what I think I was trying to bring up with my question was the danger that came along with the opportunity, which is the teaching. All of this is teaching things I've learned from you, actually. So danger and opportunity in the words or speech. Don't say no because I insist somewhere, somehow, someone's got to. I can imagine those words being used playfully by someone singing this song. Play is inclusive and mutual.

[40:52]

In the absence of play, those words imply to me violence and seem to be a condition for actual violence in the world. When those words or words like them are used playfully without acknowledging the danger, I propose the violence of the mundane realistic meaning is normalized and their violent effects obscured, leading to their perpetuation. As Tenshin Roshi has taught, play comes after relaxation. They must be relaxed. It's hard for me and sounds like for others who carry the awareness of the very real psychological, social, and economic danger of sexual violence and coercion that so many sentient beings have experienced.

[42:01]

I looked it up. The statistics of reported sexual violence is one in three women and one in six men in the United States have experienced physical sexual violence. And that doesn't include verbal. So it continues to be part of an entire system, including songs, that normalizes and obscures it. So it's hard for me to relax with this kind of speech. It's hard to relax. And as you mentioned in your talk about play, a condition for relaxation is trust. And I suggest and I feel that a whole view is trustworthy, both and, danger and opportunity, the middle way. And a person demonstrates a basic trustworthiness by demonstrating that they are aware of both sides.

[43:08]

A more robust trustworthiness is demonstrated by speaking and acting in a way that includes both and their dynamic interrelationship in an upright way. The danger and opportunity I see in these words and our relationship with the questions, how is consent recognized? How is that recognition conditioned? recognize or not recognize consent? What do we recognize as consent? What is inclusive and mutual? So I realized I was uncomfortable when you sang that song because I was aware of the, well, I was uncomfortable with the danger of And then I also, one, I kind of had this question like, do you, are you aware of the danger? I didn't know.

[44:13]

I didn't, there was no demonstration. And actually my question, I didn't see the opportunity either. I didn't see the opportunity that it, that you seem to see in those words. There was like this Dharma relationship and I wanted to know, because And that was obscured by the danger for me. I was like, oh, I can't see it. Can I just see the danger? So I asked my question. And you offered me another opportunity. And I missed, I felt like, but there was a missed opportunity of acknowledging the danger. Yeah. to demonstrate trustworthiness in your response to me by demonstrating that you saw both the danger and then showing me the opportunity so that I could be free and you could be free and we could be free together.

[45:20]

I won't say I rely on you for, but I'll say I am greatly encouraged by your embodiment of this. So I then just want to, you know, or you said, I don't know why that story came to me. It appeared in my consciousness. And am I supposed to suppress my consciousness? And I feel like this teaching you're giving is like, no, we don't suppress our delusion. we don't get rid of our conventional understanding, but we're careful with it, which, I mean, to me may mean I don't say it out loud, that I, you know, that I examine what the danger and opportunity of this understanding is before I, so I kind of wished you had been clearer or maybe just said more clearly what that story, where the danger in that story is and where the opportunity in that story is.

[46:37]

So we could have all relaxed a little bit and then maybe entered this play with you. And then I have heard you say after play, what is creation, creativity, and then liberations. which is, I'm pretty sure why we all came here. Like, do that. That's why I'm here. So I really am grateful for this opportunity to clarify these things for myself, to share it with all of you. Thank you all very much. Thank you very much for demonstrating. Thank you. And I want to say... I think that although we are all conditioned beings and we can't see everything, you didn't see the danger in that song. I did. I did. You saw it, but then... Yeah.

[47:39]

I told you about the cartoon. But also, I was up in a tightrope. I willfully got up on a tightrope and rode a bicycle. What I was doing was dangerous. And I knew that I hadn't done this trick. And I'm an old dog. I knew I might fall off the tightrope and crash down on the crowd. And I think what I... Here is I did not tell the crowd enough how I'm going to try this trick now. That's what I'm saying is that I didn't prepare you that I'm going to try something really tricky here now and I wonder if you're ready for it and I didn't do that so you couldn't participate because I was aware it was dangerous. I was aware that the song was dangerous.

[48:44]

I was aware that bringing up an irresistible force meets an... I was aware that that's a powerful image. And I was going to try to... ...song. And, yeah, so... But what I think I wasn't doing, didn't do, is I didn't get everybody involved and relaxed before I sang the song. And maybe if I had realized it's going to take so much work to get a group to relax, I can't sing this song because the group's not relaxed enough. We're not ready to relax and play yet. And that was one of the mistakes I made because I think it is possible to bring up a story like that if everybody's relaxed and ready to play with it. And that was one of my mistakes is I wasn't careful enough the way I told people that I'm going to bring up something and I don't exactly know how to do it.

[49:56]

It's a new trick. I'm sorry I wasn't more careful to make sure that this play was really timely and people were ready to play with this I'm sorry may you continue to learn new tricks yes because that cartoon was about you doing a trick. But it didn't really involve us. So I don't feel that actually helped prepare anyone except maybe you.

[51:06]

But it in a way had nothing to do with us. I can see that. And so now I see that the cartoon should be changed. And the dog realized that the audience wasn't ready for this attempt. And so he got off the tightrope and went down into the audience and asked people if they wanted to ride around in bicycles. And then it wouldn't be his new trick. It would be every bicycles. Yeah. Something like that, yeah. Anyway, the other thing, first of all, I wanted to thank Sarah. I really appreciated what you just said. And I think that really helped clarify things. And also, I wanted to say this morning, I was uncomfortable when you were emphasizing how this all just arose from your unconscious because you're the one, like one thing I've learned from you is that although we're not in control of our actions and our speech, we're responsible.

[52:27]

Yes. And you left that out. Well, I'm... It was implied, but you emphasized the other side. Yeah, whatever consciousness I'm responsible for, even though I didn't put it there. Well, thank you for pointing that out. Yeah, so we do not consciously supply our consciousness, but we have to deal with what appears there, and that's where the practice is. And the way we deal with it, if we're skillful with what appears there, that does have an influence on what appears there, but it's indirect. First of all, it transforms us, and then new material comes up. That's why I say whatever appears in consciousness, I'm responsible for, and I'm responsible, I have the responsibility to be careful with it.

[53:29]

And if I'm not careful with it, I have the responsibility, and I notice it, I have the responsibility to confess that I wasn't careful enough and say I'm sorry. Also, I need, part of my responsibility is is to ask for and encourage people to tell me if they feel that I'm not being skillful handling with what's in my consciousness. So if a story appears in my consciousness and I'm not careful with it and see that, then I need your help to point it out that I wasn't careful or skillful enough with that story. Linda and Colleen and Claire. Thank you for showing up this morning, even though you didn't want to. And thanks to Sarah and everybody. It wasn't that I didn't want to. It's more like I, yeah, it's more like I was afraid of what would happen.

[54:33]

And, yeah. In responding and accepting of feedback that people are giving. You keep referring to the first line of the song, but you don't refer to the second line, which was actually the cause of the trouble about, I must insist, and so on. So I keep wondering if you see that that was a specific issue, much more than the first line. The first two lines. It's the don't say no. I do insist. That's the one you haven't heard me talk about. Right. And just also about the story you told. Would you please reflect now more on the meaning of that story?

[55:36]

Um... Again, is this something people want me to do? I have to be careful now whether anybody besides Linda wants me to get into that story. I hear the request, so this is an example where I feel a request coming into me, and I'm wondering how to deal with the request. Again, for sure. Okay, so to be clear about that, I've talked a lot. But what I hear Linda asking, I still haven't heard the clear reflection on what Sarah talked about. And Sarah was the person I had talked to afterwards. I just want to acknowledge that because she was helpful. But do you see the danger of that story?

[56:42]

Yes. I did see the danger of the story, and I went ahead, even though I saw the danger. What's the danger? It has me chasing a girl and knocking her down and about to hit her. That's the danger. People would see violence of me attacking that girl. And Sarah's saying, no, that's not the danger. So maybe I don't see the danger if that depiction of me chasing her and knocking her down, if that's not the danger, so what is the danger? Yes. Okay. Yes. over a woman then they will often respond in a way which is not what they would if consent would be involved and so that is the problem the problem is you saying she seemed to like it because you we do not know what actually happened because it might be that that reaction

[57:59]

...due to the force and due to the violence that came from the outside. And that is the whole thing that comes in certain discussions with Ray, is that what actually happened, because many of the men might say afterwards, she seemed to like it. But oftentimes it is, because women in the... they don't know any other way to react than to submit to it. And if you look at the animal kingdom and you see what happens with the males and the females, it's very often a violent chase before they mate. and so this part for it and i think we also have part of this still even though we are so to say cultured and more involved but this part still sometimes comes in especially with kids and when you're younger and teenagers and i i think i don't know how female friends have stories like this from their teenage years when something like this has happened to them because the force is so strong like the force in the male can be so strong and the women in some part yeah i don't know so it's it's a tricky thing here because part of a of a

[59:22]

like part of our past as animals, so that is it true that the female partially likes it, or is it not true? And this, I think, is a very, very tricky, tricky place, because, yeah. That last part was scary to me. You look dangerous to me. I might speculate on... Can I ask a question? If I said to her, do you want me to kiss you? And she said yes, that still wouldn't necessarily mean that she did. Right. And can I ask another question? What do you think that girl wanted from me?

[60:25]

We'll never know. So you don't know? No. She kept coming back. Well, you could say that she kept coming. She wanted it. Well, you could say that, but you could say, no, we don't know. I guess what we're saying, can I say something? I guess what we're saying, we don't know what the girl wanted. Is that right? You're the one who taught me. I love it. Always ask. And you say, keep asking. You don't just say, ask once. You say, keep asking. Yeah, I did keep asking her over the summer. But anyway, even if I had asked her and she said yes, still she might have felt coerced into saying yes, right? So, so many people have their hands raised. Who had? Okay. Okay.

[61:29]

I'll just say that after Sunday, you said, you know, did the thing. And at that point, I wasn't one of the people to be terribly upset about it because I've got some other things I'm thinking about right now. But I just thought, okay, generation. I've met a lot of men in your generation that have blind spots around these issues. And, okay, he's got a blind spot. Um, but I understand. I understand, like, I can relate to, and part of me is my way of just putting up that bothers me is just sort of going, whatever. But what Sarah said, it's, there's been a lot of talk in between, so I kind of lost the thread about, uh, the trust and relaxation and play. For me, that kind of went sideways for me because it's invariably in the situations where trust is gained, relaxation occurs, play begins, that violence and violation occurs for many women.

[63:09]

For example, in your story, This little girl was, you know, doing whatever little kids do, and I know that you were both so I don't mean to put adult mores on it, but those are the kind of things that happen to people. Oh, they relax, they try, you know, dah, dah, dah, and all of a sudden, boom, the excrement hits the turbine. And so that just kind of shifted. Then we're in Not that I don't trust you, and not that I do not trust this organization or this religion, but it just kind of knocked me off my feet. Yeah. Question? I don't really have an answer. I just needed to put that up there. That even after there's trust and relaxation and play, violence can come up.

[64:13]

It often does, because then we're not... We think we're completely safe, that nothing, that we are, we're all very, very safe and free from danger. But, you know, that's how I feel. And that thought is dangerous. The thought that we're completely safe is dangerous. No more that, in my experience and other people's experience, that's when violence can very quickly occur. Unpredict... Seemingly unpredictable. Maybe this... Nobody else has experienced that. Yeah. Any other people there? Because, because women tend to live in a state of vigilance. against violence.

[65:14]

Men do too. Yes. I know. All females do. I know. Unconsciously we're all vigilant all the time. Yes? Clear? in responding this morning, and it was the bit about the bicycle trip. Even after Sarah, to me, really clearly laid out how it's important to acknowledge both the fun and the danger before you can feel safe. And then your response was, well, we weren't ready to play with their tricks, and you needed to come and show us. It felt a bit arrogant to me, like we're not evolved enough. But it was interesting a bit about acknowledging the danger, that that's what the reaction was.

[66:25]

So I just felt a bit of a disconnect there. Thank you. The place where I had the most difficulty with all of this It all occurred in the context of the talk where you were talking about going to have power to make people do things. When you gave the example of the dog and the child running through the street, which ultimately, I understand what you mean about co-arising for things to occur. But there is . And I think, speaking of it, there's the power to manipulate and sometimes comfort, safety, trust in order to

[67:46]

And some of us are very familiar with that experience, and so it comes up. So I think that relates to what Sarah was saying about there's acknowledging the ultimate picture where it all co-arises and nobody's in control, but what has been lacking I guess for me, is acknowledgement that powerful charismatic leader has the power dynamic isn't equal. And that in general in life, power is not equally distributed. So it seems important to talk about the ultimate relationship of how everything co-arises and also how The co-arising isn't equal.

[68:51]

Some forces have more power than others. And I think that's what I've been really reading. And I really appreciate the opportunity to say what I want. Thank you. Troy, I see you green. Troy and... And Green and Maya? And Patrick? So I wanted to start with John, when he was speaking, that brought up For me, wanting to share something about what I experienced practicing in a community where the leader of that community engaged in sexual relations with a number of female students and how that was handled.

[69:54]

I've learned from speaking with some of the students, some of the female students who engage in sexual relationships with this teacher, who are now teachers themselves. So I heard this isn't spoken of publicly in this school. I stumbled across it. Somebody mentioned it to me after I'd been practicing there. And I sort of stood on it a bit, and then I went to a 90-day retreat, and I talked to the teacher that was leading that retreat, who's also the head of the school now, about this, and I said, can you tell me what your understanding is about what happened? And she said, yeah, I was involved. I was one of the students. I was the first. And she said that Her teacher approached her and kissed her. And she didn't resist.

[70:58]

She couldn't. That because of the power dynamics and because of her unfamiliarity with how the power dynamics in Zen practice work, and because of the way it's presented, that oftentimes we're told to just surrender to our teacher. If our teacher asks us to do something, we do something. And so based on that understanding, she engaged in a sexual relationship with him that was not consensual from her perspective, which is the perspective that matters. And so some time went on, and she talked to him about it and told him that she talked to him about the fact that she wanted to have children. And he said, well, I can't give you children. And so he ended the relationship. more or less arranged a marriage with another student with her. And some time went on and another person came to life and taught the whole thing to come about.

[72:05]

And then talking with this woman then after about her experience of his public apology. According to her in the public apology, he said, I'm sorry that you didn't understand what I was doing. And then he said, I was trying to help her. And again, her comment on that was, That wasn't what was happening. He wasn't helping. He was just a guy that wanted sex. And so that came to mind as a very concrete example within of how this sort of thing has played out and the kind of pain that it can cause that can carry on through the generations.

[73:09]

So I talked to another student who was a man and also is a master in that school. about this a little later. And his recollection of all of that was very different. It was very remorseful and it was very sincere. And at some point, I had come home from work and got a report from my wife that that particular male Zen master had hit on her. I think it's really important to acknowledge the danger and to acknowledge that in a patriarchal society, relations between male and female, or in American society, around issues of race, that white males in patriarchy are males in patriarchy.

[74:11]

White people in issues of race, we have the power. And we have a lot of blind spots around other people. So there's this Ted Talk that I saw some years ago. This gentleman talking about this scientist demonstrating sort of an innate sense of fairness and kindness. He's got two rhesus muscles. And they're a key. And the scientist is giving them both grapes. They do a test, they get a grape. The monkey goes and gets it. Gets a stone, gives it to the scientist. The scientist gives them a grape. Does this to each of them for a while. And then at some point, the scientist switches, gives one of them a grape, the other one a cucumber. A non-preferred item. So the monkey examines the cucumber and, like, did I do something wrong? Goes and gets another stone and gives the stone to the scientist. And it gets another cucumber and then throws the cucumber at the scientist and grabs the cape and starts shaking the cape like this.

[75:16]

And so that's very interesting. We can all have been in a situation where we feel like we've been treated unfairly. But what I find really interesting in this, and that the researcher didn't point out, is what the other monkey was doing, the monkey that was giving the grape. And that monkey, when he saw the monkey giving the cucumber, That happened. Your sheep. I don't know. Your sheep. I'm a man, so I'm predisposed to think that it's a sheep. Saw this other monkey giving a cucumber. And then went and did the task very, very submissively. task, he was giving my grape. Got her grape. and then was completely unconcerned about the situation, completely ignorant of the fact that the monkey in the other cave was so upset. And so while this sense of unfairness for those that we feel are ourselves or those that we relate with is very innate, it's also very innate in tribalism.

[76:26]

It's very innate in us as a species. And I feel it's important to acknowledge that we have a lot of very around looking at the places where we can't see injustices that are being visited on other people because we don't think of them. Those are the things that came to mind. I feel like it goes maybe ahead of the other people I mentioned. Is that right? I think that was true. sort of heads along with what he was just saying the value of that story and I think we're addressing the question whether the story is worthy of being examined or you asked what it was I realized what I wanted to say as a man as David was pointing out and I was really appreciating what David said what the story is open for me is that without

[77:33]

without any awareness from the time that I heard that story until now, that I have been that girl with you sitting on me. And if we hadn't been bringing this up, I... Actually, I can take a deeper breath just in the awareness that I don't know how long this has been going on in my life. That I've been that girl without any awareness that that's been the case. And so I just want to appreciate that. For me, hearing the story, hearing how each of you is revealing what's going on with you, it helps me to understand how blind I am.

[78:44]

And so I cannot... Maya? And Greed? Greed? Well, I'd like to try to say two things. One is, I feel considering the situation of living at patriarchy, etc., that long is just, it's kind of moot. It's like not really worthy of playing with anymore. It's a model that is problematic enough that I don't think ethics and safety and relaxation and play around it enough that it's going to be okay.

[79:45]

So that's my feeling about this song. And the other thing I wanted to say is some gratitude is coming up in me what I'm seeing and what I'm seeing is what I think I'm seeing is offering yourself you being honest and revealing something in order for us to have this experience and the honesty of she seemed to like it. The honesty of the story is what came up for you. I'm not sure if I can find the words exactly, but it's like it's somehow revealing this wounded relationship

[81:00]

the male and female, or these two people in this dynamic. Yeah, sorry I'm not very articulate about it, but I'm feeling that your honesty in revealing that was the thought that came is giving us an opportunity to work without It's given me an opportunity to work with it in a compassionate way, because it's really easy for me to hold you in a compassionate way, and yet this is the thought that came forward. I don't know if that's clear, but it's, yeah, I'm appreciating that you're doing that for us. Yes.

[82:02]

Did your teacher ever say something or do something that you cringed at or questioned like, ooh, beyond the normal he was talking about? So not that part, not the part where you think you know and you questioned her? I said to Srila Ganesha, I said, why don't I have any problems with you? You know, I don't cringe. And he said, you will. But then he died. So I didn't get into something with him where there was cringing or whatever. I never got to that place with him. He did things, you know, which if we tell the story now of the things he did, they were in another generation, but they might say he was violent.

[83:10]

I think a general thing about Siddhartha, he was really, yes, we all thought he was so kind. And that That feeling about him has continued, our compassionate ancestor. But he beat people up. He made mistakes, and he, yeah, he strictly had the idea of letting visiting monks into his temple. A monk wanted to stay in his temple, and he said okay, and his wife said, No, I don't want that guy in here. She was uncomfortable with this monk. And the monk killed her. And after that I think he was really changed, you know. I don't think he, I think he, he didn't, I think it changed him tremendously. And he felt so sorry for his children. And he was much kinder to them after that and much more gentle.

[84:15]

After his strongly adhering to let the monk stay, this terrible thing. But I didn't see that. I heard about that later. But I did see him, I did experience him hitting all of us in a sashim. He went around and hit everybody in the sashim. And I was the first person because I was sitting nearest. And I just felt so grateful to him. So I didn't say, oh, this is... I felt okay about it. But maybe if he had lived longer, I would have felt, oh, Roshi, I finally disagree with you. I finally feel like I don't know what you're doing. I probably would have. He said I would. But there wasn't enough time. But I lived long enough so you can do that with me. But I didn't.

[85:16]

But then his successor, Richard Baker, questioned him right away. And I didn't question him enough. I was one of the few people who he'd allowed to question him. A lot of people were afraid to question him because he would make them sorry that they did. if he punished me for questioning, he would usually the next day say, thank you for asking that question. But sometimes he would slap me verbally for some of my questions. But I didn't ask enough questions. And I'm sorry I didn't. And the reason I didn't was because maybe I was a monkey with a grape or I was afraid to get beaten. I went into the room one time and I saw something, but I didn't question it.

[86:23]

But he wasn't your teacher. Well, he was my second teacher. Suzuki Roshi asked me to be his attendant. So he wasn't my teacher. It was different. We had the same teacher, but my teacher asked me to work with him. And my teacher said, I command you to work with him. And he said, why do you think I commanded you? And I think I said, I don't know. And he said, because he's very different from me. And if I don't tell you that, you'll probably leave Zen Center and I want you to stay. So he told me to stay with him. And I did. And I had questions. I did have problems with him, right from the beginning. But he did pretty well with me. And one of the things I told him towards the end of the time at Zen Center was, you know, people are afraid to give you any feedback. He let me say that. He was getting more and more isolated because people were afraid even to tell his assistants problems.

[87:27]

Anyway, I didn't do it enough. I'm sorry. And Yeah, so you've been kind to me, and I think I want more. I need more, and I don't know how that's going to go, but my evolution depends on being questioned. Yes? On Sunday... Excuse me, our evolution. Depends on me being questioned. On Sunday when you sang that song, what I was present to was my father, who sang that song. So I was in theme Crosby land. To be in this part. I was tripping, if you will. Then when you told the story, I just went, ooh.

[88:31]

for you and you know I didn't meet with people afterwards I pretty much have been thinking about it myself and It has to do with you as my teacher. So I know that sometimes in classes you'll say something and I'll say, why did you say that? It's just not true. Are you using a word that's completely opposite to how people use the word? And you said, well, that's my job. My job is to keep pulling the rug. So in thinking about the story, not the song, I've been thinking, was he pulling the rug out under us and all of our fixed ideas? Should as the super enlightened teacher who's way above how that little story seemed, or is it, this is a guy who grew up when I grew up and doesn't have the kind of sensitivity to issues that a lot of the people of different generation and even my generation are sensitive to. kept going back and forth and it's like I want to know what am I learning about my relationship with you out of this incident because I haven't questioned you so much you know in general back to the old faith thing I'm and I know we're supposed for you know we're supposed to question everything but get given that I don't really I

[90:05]

question you so much and I give you the benefit of the doubt when you speak and I really do so should I have this little my head or sensor watching out is this red speaking as a guy in his 70s who grew up in a certain way was conditioned in a certain way should I filter what I hear from you Do you advise me to do that, or do you advise me to relate to you and get value from anything? We'll vote. I don't know if I feel right about advising anything, but I do feel I need to be questioned. But I don't know if I would advise you to spend any of your life in that gift. But it's something I need. It's more like something I ask for than something I advise you to do.

[91:07]

So I don't necessarily advise you people to be kind to me, but I ask you to be. But it's up to you to decide whether you want to be kind to me and what form that takes. And the form it's taking now I find tolerable. It's, you know, and I find it, I find it encouraging, actually. It's a whole, it's a really different experience, but I feel like, I don't feel enervated, I feel energized. Not energized, but I feel energetic, I feel alive in this situation. not better and not worse, just really a lot of life in this situation. And I feel a responsibility to bring up that we're about to do a sesshin.

[92:11]

We have a schedule now to do a sesshin. And in sesshin we do a lot of sitting and then there's a dharma. And as it is now, people probably would assume that I would be giving the Dharma talk. But I'm wondering about that Dharma talk. Is that appropriate anymore under these circumstances where really it's like the name of the game is what we're doing together. And it might get back into like me doing it rather than us doing it. And so I'm kind of wondering how, if you have any, I'm actually inviting your suggestion. I could have a meeting with, you know, the practice would suggest, but then you wouldn't be included. And then that would also be telling you what they think to do. So I'm kind of feeling like maybe this, you know, one possibility is, there's various possibilities.

[93:16]

One is no Dharma Talks. And to put somebody, like to ask Fu to give them, it's kind of a lot to ask her to jump into that scene and do that, but that would be a possibility that she gives the Dharma talks. Or may I give the Dharma talks? Or many people, five people give Dharma talks. And I'll continue to be in the room with you. And, yeah, so I'm wondering about whether that's a good setup at this point given the situation. What would that accomplish? I just say it's a possibility. If one of the things I've accomplished, it would accomplish me not being in the position of teaching, being the teacher who's giving the teaching, which maybe that's questionable.

[94:16]

It is questionable. So I'm questioning me play the role of the teacher to this group. I'm questioning that. I mean, I can be the teacher in the form of he's following the schedule with us, There he is. He's practicing with us. That way, I don't see a problem. But the setup of me giving talks, I wonder if that's going to work for this group now. Yes? This kind of came around to a point that I've been sitting with for a while, since the beginning, about the nature of what a talk or a teaching is. And it seems like there's a false discrimination I feel like we've been really, as a collective, exploring non-dual participatory ethical formation together by investigating this really in this muddy water together. Yeah, I do too. But after a kind of really pithy apology, you kind of went into a very maybe sanitized discussion about dharma and non-duality and ethics.

[95:29]

instead of leading with like, okay, there's this thing on the table, and it was because green opened up the canister, and all the energy in the room flowed through. I wish you had opened it, instead of just having apologized, and then going into what appeared to be kind of a pure, abstracted Dharma class. Like, the class is what happened, but it took a student to open it. Yeah, I agree, but I invited the And I didn't want to say the name of the class is to discuss this. So I thought I'll offer this and then now I invite what happened and what happened is what I thought would happen. But I just put this out for starters because it was called a class. But I agree with your perspective and I also hear that you wish I had started that way. I hear that. give the talks from the seat of power.

[96:32]

The notion of talk, the notion of seat, the notion of power can be the talk. Yeah, it can be. Yeah. Pardon? Yes? The other thing I wanted to say was that I think why this ...problematic is that often right now with the discussion about this is so much due to me too and other stuff, it very easily gets polarized. The discussion gets polarized and one of the things which I find is so problematic in this situation about the girl in your situation, the women... from the stories you were saying, that maybe she didn't like it. But I think what makes it so problematic is that maybe she didn't like it and maybe she did like it.

[97:38]

So maybe also the women that were having the relationship with the teacher, maybe they didn't like it, but maybe also sometimes they liked it. And the problematic part is how does that situation arise? How does it start? And how do you get into that situation when there? And then it becomes very problematic for the mind, for the person that is in that situation, because maybe they partially liked the women that had sex with the teacher. Maybe they partially liked it, but they also didn't like it. And the problematic part comes there somehow, that it's not often. And that's why it's so complicated also later on maybe to let go of. So I felt like I said something because I felt responsible to bring it up, because I just felt like if I go in and give a talk, I don't know if, I think things have changed now, so I don't know if it's a good idea.

[98:48]

So I need some guidance, and I see a lot of people with, I see one, two, three, four, five, six, and seven. I wonder how you ate. I wonder, are you getting exhausted? I'm not exhausted, but anybody want to lie down or leave the room? More air. Yeah, more air. We have some warmth here. So I don't know. Anyway, there's about seven of you who have your hands raised. Let's just start in the back and we'll move up to the front. Sam? I appreciate you attempting to be sensitive to me from the group, but I'd feel discouraged if you took a step down personally from the seat. I hear you.

[99:50]

I feel like I'm hearing everyone bringing forth the impact yourself to be wrong and open to change. And if you step down, I guess what's the intent behind stepping down? Is it truly for... Well, I don't want to have it be a unilateral stepping down. I'm bringing this up for question. So I don't feel, I feel like it would If I'm going to step down, it would just be the same thing as me going in and giving the talk unilaterally. So I don't want to do that. So next, Carol. Cole? I would like for you to give the Dharma talks throughout the session. I'm just, from my Dharma seat, that is what I would like. Okay. Thank you.

[100:53]

Susan? I would like you to not give Dharma talks. I would like this person, and actually all of us, to continue play with the deluded rep vision, my vision of deluded rep. There is, and the enlightened. So I'd just like to continue on this very special practice we're doing together. Could you hear what she said? Could I... I thought you heard what she said. I thought she said, I would like us to play with the deluded rep. Did you say something like that? That's not the only thing. That's not the only thing, no.

[101:55]

My deluded vision of everything and the enlightened realm and the enlightenment that's in this room, I'd like us to continue playing with it. throughout the session. That's what you would like? Okay. Did you hear what she said? Okay, Claire? I would like to have Dharma talks during the session. I would be happy to have you do Dharma talks. You'd be happy to have other people give Dharma talks? Mm-hmm. I think these things are still kind of up and unsettled right now for us and for you, and that's good, this process, and I think perhaps getting input from the senior leadership about it might be helpful too. So I'm kind of open to any of those options.

[102:57]

Okay. Linda? Through your Dharma talks, if you feel... like it would be a good moment to offer the talk to somebody else during the session that would be fine but i definitely would like to hear your I hear you, thank you. Sala, and Fu, and John, and who, anybody else? And Beverly, and Sonia, and Maya. So, and Stephen, and Alex, and Colleen. So again, I don't know what order that should be in. Maybe starting from the back, forward. Sonia? Okay, you want to be called on? Okay, Sala. But the same way that I could talk to the senior staff, but then that wouldn't include all you.

[104:04]

But also, me being here includes my whole family. You know, and if you didn't, I mean, it's a big deal. It's a lot of money. You know, it's a big deal. So I would love for you to keep giving talk. It isn't just us. It's the people we relate. And I'm not going to call and ask them what they think. I would love to keep giving talks with your new enlightenment. Yeah, new enlightenment. Stonia? I feel like I would like the Dharma talks to continue. I feel like maybe this is fall down, get up, just to stay down. It doesn't feel like there's some way that we get feedback to be able to bounce back. And there's many reps.

[105:07]

That was one rep. It was this Sunday. And there's many ways that you've accessed the teachings, too. and stories and returning to concentration and breath. And I feel like we could benefit from that support. So for me, of the get up is part of what is encouraging. Thank you. Beverly? You're on the list, Jillian. Well, I I've kind of become more disturbed as this conversation has gone than I was at the start of it. And to me it seems like in response to this Dharma Talk question, you know, is there time to repair relationships? And I've been reading, keeping up on the right use of power stuff that people have been studying and

[106:14]

It talks about an apology having different components. This is what I did. This is what I said. I regret it. This is why. This is what I'm going to do to try to make sure that it doesn't happen again. And I'm not sure that has occurred, and I don't know if that would be helpful for people to hear. I'm also open to... Others getting narco-tox and or you in conjunction with that. Okay. Feeling that my heart has stopped beating through this whole meeting and I'm still feeling that. Kind of paralyzed. And when you said fear, you were afraid. I thought, yeah, I'm really afraid. And I'm afraid to talk.

[107:19]

You know, what you said about sitting on your chest, I feel that way about the community. It's on my chest. And I don't know how to be in love with so many people. It isn't hurting me. So I try to be very safe. I stay away. I don't go to meals in the dining room. I write my talks and I read them. I don't ask for questions after a session. Because what's happened to me has been more than I feel like, as a person, I can bear. As a Dharma master, I would hope I could take all the arrows and just go like, whoa, you missed me. But I don't have... And I so much want to serve this teaching and this lineage, and I know you're going to die, and if you die before I do, God forbid, I don't know how I'm going to possibly bear the weight.

[108:37]

of holding and caring and loving for Suzuki Roshi and everybody who's carried this for centuries to us so we could have it. I understand that we have to address our social issues and all of the things that are happening on this earth and yet somehow the Buddha's teaching is the only light I've ever found in my own life that brings relief and you've given that to me and you've also hurt me and I've hurt you and I'm sorry please forgive me and I love everyone in this room And it's, I think my heart started beating. And thank you, everyone. Linda?

[110:03]

Did you have your hand raised? No. Maya? I've heard you tell that story before in the past, probably more than once, you and a little girl. And it's always felt, like Sal said, I've felt kind of yucky about it. I feel ashamed and want to apologize that I've never brought it up. So now I feel kind of complicit in continuing to use that as a teaching story. I'd like to separate what happened from the story.

[111:08]

So there was some discussion earlier about did the little girl like it or not or whatever. I mean, to me that's irrelevant. That's not a question. Who knows what happened? It's a story. It's a story in your mind and You could tell it however you want. I mean, it could be that you could have another story that she punched you out, whatever. And I think the thing about the dog and the type of that, just not helpful. You know, you told a story but you didn't, like, what was the point of that story? I think the story to be told with some good result you actually talked about why you were telling it and what is the actual you're trying to get across I mean anyway obviously it didn't work this time

[112:27]

And again, I just want to apologize for not having expressed my distaste for it many years ago. I heard it. But nevertheless, I beg you to keep teaching. Could I say something? You used the word complicit. Could you also say... Yes. I see you, Jackie, but there's a few people ahead of you. John, Stephen, Colleen, Alex, Jackie, Sarah. you as a teacher, so I would very much want you to teach.

[113:32]

And, you know, it's said that one doesn't teach them, one practices them. You're practicing with us. We're watching you now. We're watching all of us practice through this. I just hope that you continue teaching through this and that this doesn't interfere with your your confidence, your ability to be the teacher that you are. Yes, learn. You're practicing Zen. But please be there for us. We need you. I do need you and you do need me, I agree. And I do want to be there for you. I'm asking your help. to find me the right way to be there for you, at least. And I heard one thing stated by Beverly, which we can come back to.

[114:33]

Alex? Yes. I'm very touched by what you said to me. And that really resonates with what I've been sitting with during this conversation, which I'm also thankful for to Europe, but also for everybody who has been bringing things up. I felt a lot of resistance towards the conversation in regards to the power that I hold as a man, as a white man. And I'm from another country and with another kind of culture in the sense that I am not allowed to kind of be myself. I've been afraid to show my teaching or show myself and started now to slowly reclaim it because I've been in fear of being a repressor.

[115:36]

So I've been repressing myself. And afraid of being a repressor and oppressor. Oppressor, or like being pushed down. You've been afraid of pushing people down. That's also called oppressor. Right, okay, yeah. So I've been afraid of being that, so I've done that. Yeah. And, yeah. I see it as a great teaching to see those parts of me that could act in a way, which I see that you are acknowledging as well. I see the power that you hold, both in the teachings that you are giving me and in the way that you are handling this now. And I would encourage you to continue to make mistakes and continue to teach. I would love to hear your Dharma talks. Steven?

[116:41]

Yes. I would like you to get the Dermatoxin. I think the reason it's really important that you do this is that this situation, which echoes a lot of things that are going on right now in our society, is an opportunity. And I think whatever you do with it, if you feel you're up to it, it's going to be a plus. We will finally say, I think we'll end up saying, thank you for this. This is an opportunity. Did I make that clear? I thought it was clear. Thank you. Sarah? Linda? Sarah? Sarah. Yeah. The way that I could understand what was happening was because of your teaching, because you taught me.

[117:54]

So your understanding of how reality works, to describe it, is really important. It's important to me. I heard it was important to a lot of people. And for me, the piece that's missing, you made it. You said something like, I need you to tell me. I need you to tell me because I can't see. Or I need you to question me. I was part of the apology, maybe, or like, what can I do for it not to happen again? I mean, one may have said, don't tell that story. But I think, for me, it's not just I'm up for being in this room, I'm up for getting your feedback.

[118:57]

I think take responsibility for being able to apply the Dharma to help people understand sexual violence and how it occurs. To apply it, to turn the light on that, or racial violence, injustice. I feel like there's so many examples that you're so good at following with. vomit. Grace brought vomit to you and you were like, you could get in there and play with the vomit and you brought wisdom and compassion and you could see it and in a way that I felt was beneficial. And I think there are like books you could read and people you could talk to so that you could also illuminate those spaces. It's not just what conditioning you came in with. So I feel I'm up for being patient, and I'm up for being generous, and I'm up for, with myself and with you and with all of us.

[120:15]

It's important to have, somehow, to hear, like, not just sounds a little passive like please bring it to me but like actually i want to make an effort and to be careful and to how to notice more to examine my own conditioning about what i don't see and then you might not see that conditioning And I don't think you're going to do it before Sushi tomorrow. And that's okay. So that's okay with me. And I think I would be willing to take that. I'm also taking that up. So if you bring up the Dharma, I would like to take it up. And take up what I'm asking you to take up too, which is how do I apply it to these sticky situations?

[121:19]

and not just expect you to do it for me, but also I'd like you to do it with me. Thank you. Let's see. I see Linda. Was there anybody else? Oh, Colleen, yeah. Firstly, I would like to say that I am very appreciative of what has occurred this morning. This kind of conversation would probably not have occurred in this kind of sincerity beyond more than perhaps even five years ago, anywhere. So I am very appreciative of the sincerity with which this has occurred, with all the parties and the wealth involved. Unlike many people here, I have never... It's my first time studying with you.

[122:22]

And I came here to study, primarily with you and with the other teachers here. And I have found your talks and classes, I've learned, just opened up for me. They've been very, very valuable in my understand, whatever. They've been really valuable to me. I've really, they've opened up a lot. I, perhaps because this is my first time here, or just my temperament, I did not, I arrived with a great respect for you as a teacher, as someone who has lived and taught the Dharma for 50 years, or a while, I imagine. And yet you're a human being,

[123:24]

And we all make mistakes. And I would like, and I accept that. And if I'm any kind of Zen student, I have to practice the compassion and understand that my, well, my teachers are all around me, but the teacher who I came to study with deserves my compassion as well. And that making a mistake does not negate all that you have to share with us. So I will be very happy to hear Dharma talks from you. And I would also like to say that other Sashins I've gone to that have had a main or guided teacher, I don't know how many Dharma talks are in the Sashin here, but sometimes they're shared. You know, the main teacher might give two and others might each give one. So for mutation of that, I would be extremely grateful. So Linda and anybody else that was... Oh, I think Julian was before Linda.

[124:34]

There's two... It's okay. It's okay. There's three Julians right there in a little pocket, and two of them have their hands raised. Maybe you want to join them? No. Okay. So I think Julian... You guys work it out. Which one? Okay. I think considering where we are after this morning, that it's actually important that our talks continue during September. Certainly we want to hear from you, but if you want to have some, or if you decide somebody else should be one as well, that's fine too.

[125:45]

But I also think Again, given where we are, then it is important to provide questions during each dialogue. This is a dialogue. Okay, I see you, Jenny, but I think Linda's next. Julian, did you want to say something? Yeah, but I have to be in line. Okay, so Linda... Julian, Annie, and Alejandro. Linda? Back in the 70s and early 80s, I just adored Baker Roshi. I thought he was really so great. When the came, I expected him to do something really great. We had that big meeting in the dining room in San Francisco, and I said something like this.

[126:54]

I imagined he would be like that. He lived under the bridge in Kyoto with the beggars and just got it completely. But he didn't at all. he didn't he just defended himself and said mostly i didn't do anything wrong and then i i just like to say that what you have done is what i wanted to see Jenny? Jenny? Yes. I think I'd really like to hear you continue giving neurotoxins as well.

[127:57]

I feel that if you don't, it's kind of the same system that we're dealing with right now. Just playing. I think one of the things I need in the talks is sometimes what I hear is that I feel it is repressive, where I need to submit myself to it. I don't know how to say anything to it, but sometimes it really hurts me. I need us just more humility. And I think this, you know, in terms of the right use of practice, but the sincerity in that. I know, like, you've really handled the situation. Like, I've seen kind of, like, this kind of perverse, like, how it started and where it is now. And I really appreciate it, like, where it is now.

[128:59]

And more of that, you know. I hope that these are all talks we can... just kind of bring forth that sincerity, that vulnerability. That's why I'm here, you know? I kind of like, be here with my whole heart, and that's what I need to see as an example in the teachings. And I learned so much from you, so this very short time that I've been here. I see. I think, although you, I think, Julian hasn't spoken yet. Yes, Julian. I would just mention that there was a time at Tassajara where you told little stories and then opened up the floor for an hour or more for people to come and ask questions. And I was not up for that. And I told you that I'd be allowed to leave when that happened.

[130:02]

And so you would tell the stories, and then I would get up, and I would excuse myself, and I would go for a walk, and it was a great sashimi. And some other people saw me doing this, and they asked me about it. and ask you if they could also leave at that time and that there were a few other people that would leave at the same time. And I would just suggest that possibly if people are not up for sitting through talks or not up for sitting through whatever Q&A may transpire, you could invite them to be excused from those. I really appreciate it. Yeah, and of course that same applies to needing to go to the toilet. Alejandro? Yeah, I would actually raise my hand if you made that exact same point. I think the way Sushin upper is for me, like the nonverbal mark is very important, other than the normal talks.

[131:10]

So it's sort of just having the option to... The other thing I wanted to say was also that it seems that our discussion is somehow, well, I was meeting this with some resistance initially. I was sort of like, it felt like when I'm in Zazen where my leg falls asleep and I'm just sort of like, well, I should have just like walked up here because it was really uncomfortable. But somehow we managed to illuminate the issue, even though it was difficult. So yeah, I really appreciate how we somehow operated with the teachings in real life like that. And it seems that we sort of consensus, even though it's not explicit, but I just feel it in the room that we're all converging into. Just, yeah, through one line, call it what you will, and I would like to go through some of that, and for you to give a comment on this.

[132:25]

Thank you very much. Jackie? I took three weeks out of my life, and I debated it quite a bit to come to this practice. And I thought, my teacher is getting old. I don't know how many more years he'll do practice communities and give us his teachings. I love you. My heart hurts because I know the stories that you told were not intended to be oppressive, actually oppressive. I know some people, I respect the opinion of those who have expressed themselves.

[133:31]

I know they've been through a lot of pain. And they're coming from the, it's an imputation. the story about the little girl. I didn't hear it the way it's been expressed. I heard it that you were angry because she was doing da-da-da-da-da-da and you turned it into love. That's how I heard it. I didn't turn it into it. Or something did. No, something turned it from I want to hit you to Maybe we should kiss instead, yeah. Anyway, that's another view of the story which I had. Grace's comment about the vomit was not about referencing your story. It was completely different. She and I talked about it.

[134:33]

Right, I understand. So somehow in this conversation Grace's vomit has been made to appear as if it was part of this whole thing. We can work with that. I just want to say that my heart is heavy because I know that was not your intention. And I'm very grateful for your teachings and I welcome the Dharma talks during Sushane. And yes, none of us are perfect, neither are you, and you've always said that. And I... allowing everyone to express themselves. Thank you. Andrea, can Ann go first?

[135:37]

Okay. Ann? I'll make it quick for you. I want to acknowledge that Sarah said that about books because pretty much every difficult conversation that I've shown up in, somebody wishes somebody didn't have a blind spot, that they had read enough or educated them in another person's perspective that it wouldn't happen, that the transgression wouldn't happen. And there's just never going to be enough books. So not to say that we don't all want to know what the problems are. So yes, please. Andrea. A lot has been said, a lot has been felt. This is my first practice period here, and I was given two pieces of advice when asked before coming. One, I was told, where is your teacher?

[136:40]

Two, I was told that the world will enter the practice space. Just because you leave the world, the world does not leave. And I'm witnessing that over and over again. And I think this conversation is necessary. As Alex mentioned, country but you know this whole dance between this whole idea of the oppressor and the oppressed you know this whole thing about patriarchy we're living in a time now where it's hashtag me too hashtag black lives matter the list goes on but I think the conversation and the and the Q&A all of it has to happen because if we are really Every morning we chant our ancient Twisted Karma. We do multiple vows. And we all here, I feel the intention that we all have is that we do want to, when we walk in the world, we want to walk the Bodhisattva path. This is what it is.

[137:41]

And I think in this country, these are the conversations, this is the work that's not been done. And that is why our world is so violent. And there's so much more violence coming up, even from little babies like this. If they feel it and they act it out, then us want to hold that responsibility. So in order for that to happen, Fred, you have to give food to our autopsies. So the women like fooling us, we wanted to open it up, change up the format. I mean, because I don't know, I haven't studied that much, but... Pam? Pam? To express gratitude for our process here today, the bravery of everyone who spoke with such direct questions that really held your feet to the fire, and your bravery for creating the space where that can happen.

[138:57]

And I just want to acknowledge... This is the type of environment that we're creating together here where people have that level of safety. This is an enormous amount of trust and willingness to bring our point of view forward that we have here that you rarely see. And I'm very grateful that we have created this space here together and I feel that we've all been changed by it and we're all learning from it. And I also, I think Ann had a similar sentiment that some people said that we don't want this to happen again. I welcome this to happen again because this is our lives. This is a great opportunity to learn how to live in an upright manner. We make mistakes and we speak our truth and we listen, and this is what we've done today.

[139:58]

And I'm very grateful. Yes. I have an unreasonable request and prayer, and it's that you don't be careful, Frank. You don't try to make sure you don't. mess up you know because i'm here because of how full you've been and i guess i'm here worrying that you're going to take all of our feedback and my my fear is that you would try to fit yourself and do something that won't create situations where people point fingers at you you know and i want us to be big enough to forgive you the next time if there's a next time and i want you to not feel and yet you've hurt us.

[141:13]

So it's impossible, but so what? I do want to be careful, though. But I don't want my care to kill my life. And it doesn't have to. You know? Like, I can go like this, but if somebody's standing over here and they say, you know, Would you please move your arm differently? I can go like that instead. It's not... I need feedback because sometimes I go like this and somebody is too close to Valerian. So I need Valerian to say, your hand was too close to me. How about that? And he says, cool. So... I think what I would suggest for your consideration is that I live Dharma talks, or I invite other people to do so.

[142:29]

But I think I probably would need to welcome people to respond to the Dharma talks, you know, with their posture. I feel like it might not work for me to give a Dharma talk and then say, may our intention. That might not work at this particular time in history. Sometimes it does. Sometimes you give a Dharma talk, may our intention. Everybody's cool with that. But I think that I might, after talking for a while, I might say, is there anything you'd like to offer? I think I probably would want to do that. And if anybody doesn't want to be there for this response that might come, I'd like to welcome them to take a walk. And then they could even come back if they change their mind. I have a number of stories about that.

[143:33]

So I could tell a story like that, and then I could say, you're welcome to respond to that. And you can bring up basically anything you think would really be helpful. And of course I would like you to do it in accord with the Bodhisattva precepts, but I vow to welcome whatever you bring. But I do feel like the Dharma talk has to be For me, when I come in to give a Dharma talk, I feel like I'm receiving it from you anyway. And then it comes back out. But I think we need to also, in this situation, I want to invite you to come forward and allow anybody who would rather not be there for whatever this is, to feel free to leave for the rest of the talk or whatever. Does that seem okay for now as a way to proceed?

[144:39]

And here's another thing which, here's something coming up into my consciousness. And the introduction of it is, and again, you've heard this story before, and I'd be interested to hear how you felt about it and whether you feel that you should have said you didn't like it in the past. But anyway, it's a key story in my life, which, again, many of you have heard. And I'll say it again. You don't know what it is, but may I at least start telling it and you can stop me if it seems like you don't feel comfortable? It starts out not so scary. It's on the day of my ordination as a priest. The teacher tells me about my name.

[145:45]

He says, your name will be Tenshin. And he said, that means Reb is Reb. And then he said, difficulty with that But there's nothing to be done about it. So that's my practice, is ten-shin. And ten-shin means two things. One thing it means is to be like a silly little boy who tells stories, you know, unskillfully, just like he does. Another meaning of tension is ultimate reality. For you to be you, that's also the truth. And the second part is Zenki. So anyway, like it or not, I didn't like... Yeah, I'm trying to be... Tension means also like naive,

[146:58]

genuine, like you're genuinely, you're too much of a child to think of anything other than that. But again, this child wants feedback. And I had to tell that story many times before Maya finally told me. Now that she's finally told me, I don't have to say it anymore. So I guess I will continue the practice of being myself and welcoming your response, offering myself and welcoming your response, and encouraging you to give it to me. And I would like you to give it to me in a really skillful way, but I'm not here to judge that. I can't tell if you're being skillful or not. Again, I ask you to be skillful, but I'm just going to receive whatever you give. That's my vow.

[148:01]

But I still receive it. I mean, I still vow to receive it. And I can't be me without you giving that to me. I can't do it by myself. So I... You've been so great and so kind to me and to everyone. I'm just so grateful to you. It's just really... I feel alive. I feel supported. I feel respected. I feel appreciated. I feel... What's the word? I feel educated. I feel, yeah. Loved. Huh? I feel loved in an educational way. Which has lots of discomfort in it.

[149:02]

But I'm so grateful to you and to... You know, there's a whole situation that we could have this event this morning, and that somehow we can go on and finish this intensive. Thank you so much. Is that enough for this morning?

[149:27]

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