Someone asked me if I could summarize yesterday's talk in one sentence or two. Jillian, there's a seat up here in front. That's not the summary. Maybe it was. Maybe that was the summary. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's a good summary. There's a seat up in front. And at the seat up in front, I practice Zen, pivots with Zen practices me.

[01:27]

That could be a summary of yesterday's talk. Or, I speak the Dharma and the Dharma speaks me. I speak the Dharma pivots with the Dharma speaks me. Another summary. I speak the Dharma is delusion. And that pivots with the Dharma Speaks Me, which is enlightenment. The pivotal activity of the Buddhas is not enlightenment, and it's not delusion. It's not the Dharma speaks me only, or I speak the Dharma.

[02:36]

It's the way those two pivot. The way sentient beings are pivoting with Buddhas. That's a proposal of the activity of Buddhas. They don't live with their own selves in enlightenment. They live together with sentient beings in delusion. And they are truly Buddhas, and sentient beings are truly sentient beings. I'm embarrassed to bring up a story which I bring up so many times, but I think it's apropos. May I? The name of this story is Guishan's Karmic Consciousness.

[03:39]

Guishan had a student named Yangshan. And the two of them together are considered the founders of one of the five schools of Zen, Guiyang School. One day in ancient China they were together and the teacher Guishan asked Yangshan, if someone suddenly comes and asks or comes and says, All sentient beings have karmic consciousness. Unclear, giddy, with no fundamental to rely on.

[04:48]

Period. Or question mark. How would you test their experience? How would you test their understanding? And Yangshan said, if someone comes, I would say, hey you. If the head turns, I would say, What is it? If he hesitates or she hesitates, I would say, and the original doesn't say this, I'm going to add this one word, these two words, sure enough, what it says in the original is just,

[05:57]

All sentient beings just — let me say it this way — all sentient beings just have karmic consciousness, boundless and unclear, with no fundamental to rely on. In other words, sure enough, that's what's going on with . So just to pull the story apart a little bit, if the monk comes and says, all sentient beings have karmic consciousness, boundless, unclear, and giddy, with no fundamental to rely on, Yangshan says, hey you, if the head turns, this monk might understand if the head just turns. He might understand that there was a call and a response.

[07:11]

And that there's always a call and a response. He might understand that, and he might understand that that happened, but that didn't happen just because the monk turned his head. He might understand that. If that was the understanding, in other words, call and response did that monk. Call and response was that monk. Or call and response was that monk. So Yangshan didn't say, I say, hey you, and the head turns, and I say, good. But he could have said, good, you passed the first test. Good. But he didn't say that.

[08:17]

He just said, if I call, it turns. In other words, I would say, turns with no hesitation. Just turns. When called. Then I'll test again, and I'll say, what is it? If he hesitates, then I say, basically, enough, here's karmic consciousness. He slipped back into, I have to answer the question, or this question has to be answered by me. And that thought is basically hesitation, rather than turn the head or salivate. So in this story, Yangshan meets somebody, says, hey you, and the first response is the Dharma comes forth

[09:24]

and turns the head. The second part, the head, the monk tries to say the Dharma. So the first part of the story is awakening. The second part of the story is delusion. So right there, one's by itself, it looks like, and the other one's by itself, it looks like. It looks like one's the full moon and one's a new moon or a crescent moon. I practice Zen. That's an expression of delusions. The Buddha way is how that expression pivots with Zen practice me.

[10:30]

And to learn the Buddha way, what's the Buddha way again? It's how my deluded conscience, where I think I'm doing things by myself. I got one like that. Here it is. I'm a sentient being, I've got a karmic consciousness. The Buddha way is how that karmic consciousness is pivoting of Zen practices me. How those two pivot is the Buddha way. And the great ancestor Dogen says, to learn the Buddha way, to learn how these two, how awakening and delusion pivot, we say the way to learn that is to learn the self. The way to study the Buddha way is to study the self. Now, that's not the only thing that's been said.

[11:35]

But anyway, in that place, at that time, he didn't say, to study the Buddha way is to study awakening. He said, the way to study the Buddha way, the way to learn it, is to study the self. Study the self, and let's see if by any chance there's any delusion there. Okay, so let's study the self. Yeah. So maybe it isn't exactly that to study the Buddha way or learn the Buddha way is to study self. I mean, that study the Buddha way is not necessarily to study delusion. But if we study the self, we may find out that there's some delusion in the neighborhood. So then studying that delusion would be part of studying the Buddha way.

[12:36]

Study if around the self there's... that the self is... the director of what's going on in karmic consciousness. So learning about the self would normally, that learning process would normally see that there's some sense where the self is in karmic consciousness that the self is directing the body, for example. the self each and that sense is a delusion and to study that delusion and to learn about that delusion is learning about the buddha way because as sense of the self is directing

[13:43]

more and more thoroughly, which means with great compassion and patience and carefulness, we study the self and the delusions that live with it, we come to a place to see awakening from those delusions and see that it's not the self that does things, it's the things that do the self. It's not the self that controls the body. The body gives rise to the self, gives rise to the consciousness which has a self, which thinks it is in charge of what it comes from. We discover that and we wake up. But that's not the end of the story. because we don't get rid of the karmic consciousness, we don't get rid of it. Then we can see how they work together. And again, we keep learning more and more how they work together by studying the karmic consciousness, which we have.

[14:55]

We've got one. But if we have a karmic consciousness, We also have an awakened mind. Because the awakened mind is always right there with the deluded karmic consciousness. It's never anywhere else. And it's being compassionate to the karmic consciousness. In celebration of this story, a later teacher, Hung Ger, Tian Tong Hung Ger, he wrote a poem about this case. And the first line of the poem is, One call, or when called, the head turns.

[15:59]

And then it says, do you understand the self or not? But it also is translated as, does he or does she or do they understand? So do you understand the self or not? Hey you, do you understand the self or not? Hey you, do they understand the self or not? One can say, hey you, he did understand the self because his head turned. Hey you, the head turns. He did understand. The head turned and he didn't fall into the delusion that he did the turning. It's awakening. Or, I think he thought he did. But certainly in the test, when you say, I knew the head just turned, but when I say, what's your Buddha nature, there's hesitation.

[17:06]

Now, for sure, now, this is karmic consciousness. Being tripped up on the delusion, misconception that the self is operating the consciousness. And again, If that sense is there, I would say, as we say in English, we come by this honestly. We didn't steal this sense. It comes from having a body. The body produces a consciousness which has this delusion that the self that lives there is operating what's going on. We don't make ourselves that way. We come to be that way. However, we also can hear a teaching which is, And it's a really good thing to study. And learning about it is learning about the Buddha way.

[18:09]

Sometimes when I'm discussing something, like I have been doing with you, about this pivotal activity, sometimes a story comes up into my consciousness, like this one, Guishan's Karmic Consciousness. I didn't go looking for the story. It popped up there. And actually when it popped up there, I… which is, oh, they don't want to hear about this again. But I didn't make that come up there either. And then I thought, well, even though they don't want to hear about it, it does seem wonderfully apropos. So maybe even though it's been repeated so many times, maybe one more time. So here it is. I'm really quite surprised. by how to the point this story is, how wonderfully it works with the pivotal activity of delusion and enlightenment and delusion, how it's wonderful how it does that.

[20:06]

And the poem also. I'm kind of thrilled by how This story is to us. And how rich the implications and facets of it are, even though it's quite simple and short. This is a story which I kind of don't want to repeat, but it's so relevant. May I? Once upon a time there was a teacher named Yunnan and a monk asked him, quoted something to him from the sutra, from the Avatamsaka Sutra that says, the fundamental affliction of ignorance is itself the immutable knowledge of all Buddhas.

[21:18]

And I don't know if this... And then the monk said, this seems really abstruse and profound. And Yunnan said, oh really? Seems kind of straightforward to me. And then Yunnan said, See that boy over there? See the boy over there sweeping the ground? Hey, you! And the boy turns his head. And Yunnan said to the monk near him, Is this not the immutable knowledge of all Buddhas? And then he said, to the boy. What's your Buddha nature?

[22:28]

And the boy hesitated and stumbled off into the horizon. And then Yunnan turned to his father. Is this not the fundamental affliction of ignorance? Hey you, we might not think, what should I do? What should I do? It turns without that. That's what Buddhas know how to do. That's what Buddhas do. At a certain time of day you put food in front of them and they salivate. At another time you put food in front of them and they don't. They don't think, should I salivate or not? But the fundamental affliction, sadly, makes it so that when food's in front of us we think about whether we should salivate or not.

[23:39]

About, you know, we think about whether we're hungry or whether we shouldn't be hungry. Or we think about whether we're thirsty. That honestly. We come being thirsty honestly, but then we come by thinking that we should decide whether we're thirsty or not, and we should control the thirst situation. But still, to me it's kind of amazing that the fundamental affliction of ignorance is itself the immutable knowledge of all Buddhas. How is it that the immutable knowledge of all Buddhas comes to be

[24:47]

the ignorant mind of karmic consciousness. And again, here's another example just for your information. I did not intend to bring this up, but it just popped into my head. Why does the immutable knowledge of all Buddhas come into the skin bag of a dog, but we could also say, why does the immutable knowledge of all Buddhas come into the skin bag of a human? And the ancient response is, because it knowingly and willingly transgresses. The immutable knowledge of Buddhas comes with the vow to enter into delusion, consciously enter delusion and function there.

[25:58]

it could be proposed that we are in, that we have karmic consciousness, and it's a messy situation, it's rough waters, and we all have that opportunity of having a diluted karmic consciousness. How do we... how come we're... And one answer might be, because we're here in the situation to practice the Buddha way. That's why we're here. We intentionally came into the situation in order to practice the Buddha way. But we can't quite remember that we intended for that purpose. But maybe we did. Buddha nature does enter the mud and water in order to practice the Buddha way.

[27:35]

It enters the rough waters in order to of compassion. It enters the rough delusion waters in order to practice compassion this messy situation. That's a proposal. Now that you've heard about it, would you aspire to enter this rough water in order to row the boat? Maybe that's why we're here. We have that aspiration and now there's a chance to rediscover it. and generously, carefully, patiently row the boat together with everybody.

[28:37]

Maybe there's quite a bit more in this story that could be discussed, but maybe that's a good start. Does that seem like enough to get started on? And there's a question comes up which I kind of already asked, which is, although you may not know that you willingly and knowingly entered into a zygote in your mother or that you knowingly or willingly entered into an embryo in your mother although you may not know that now that you've heard about this would you be willing to enter into karmic consciousness of a living being in order to practice the Buddha way would you

[29:50]

Would you be willing to do it again for the welfare of people who are in karmic consciousnesses? Here's another thing that just popped up. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Because angels know that this karmic consciousness is a dangerous place. It doesn't mean they don't go. It just means they're kind of afraid. They go in, but really carefully, like, did you see all those fools rushing in there? I think I maybe go in there carefully and just give them a few tips. So the angels also will enter in order to do their messenger thing, right?

[30:57]

Do you people know that? This is karmic consciousness here. Did you know that? There's delusion all over the place. Did you know that? No, we didn't. Oh my God. So some of us may have rushed in. Okay, fine. Here we are. Others of us carefully said, okay, one, two, three. Here we go. We're going to go in there because all those other people are rushed and we got to go tell them where they are. You're in Karmic Consciousness Land. Really? I thought I was in reality. And I don't know, you know, whether I'm a fool or an angel. I think maybe I'm a little bit over on the fool side because I think I do sometimes rush into dangerous situations. But I'm going to try to be more careful. I want to keep entering dangerous situations, though.

[32:04]

I do. Not go look for them. But if they come, which they might because they do, For example, old age is kind of dangerous. When you haven't... Like, yeah, like walking on ice, if you're old, is kind of dangerous. But sometimes you have to go someplace and there's ice in front of you, so be careful, right? So anyway, I don't want to... I'm not choosing dangerous situations, but I do want to... even if they're dangerous, and I want to be careful. like the angels, be careful. But also, if danger comes, we meet it with compassion. Is there anything anybody wants to offer to anybody?

[33:09]

Now we have a person way in the back who maybe I won't ask her to walk up here. She wants to. She doesn't want to. Okay. Well, in that case, I've got to get my hearing aids on because you are far away. Just a second, please. From far away. And you're still far away. Okay, I think I might be able to hear you. Thank you. Yes. and there were angels rushing in. So it's something that I've noticed that a kind of energy that practitioners of the way sometimes have.

[34:16]

And so the story is, in our stendo, one morning there weren't a lot of people there, and so we didn't have all the role skills. And I went up to a practitioner and whispered, your skin does, will you be J-Shift? And the person said, yes. What do I do? That person actually was test board. So I just thought that was so, it was sort of like a wrapped up version of the head in front of the head. Not in the case, but to do something. Yeah, the head turned. The yes came before he thought about it. And then after he had that generous response, he kind of wondered carefully what to do.

[35:24]

He didn't get caught too much by his karmic consciousness. May he continue. Yes. I'm trying to listen to you. Everything doing me. The other day, you used the word responsible in a proven way. I said, I felt complicit. You said, could you use the word responsible? Who is responsible? Well, responsibility is, I feel, unlimited.

[36:27]

For the bodhisattva path, responsibility doesn't have limits. And so one aspect of responsibility is we are responsible to listen. So you said you're trying to listen, but also I would say you are listening. And I would say you are responsible to listen because when sounds come you do respond to them by listening. In that way you are responsible. However, even though when you speak I am responsible and I do respond to you by listening, actually not accept that responsibility. I may kind of like, a thought while I'm listening to you, a thought may arise in my mind, I don't want to listen.

[37:36]

I'm not responsible to her. That can come up too. But there's responsibility for that resistance to responsibility also. So part of responsibility means that something's being asked of me. And part of responsibility is, I'm asking for something. And another part of responsibility is, I do have the ability to respond and it's non-stop. I have the ability and I exercise that ability. As a living being, I am responding all day long. However, I may have to work

[38:39]

a responder. Because I also sometimes want to take a break from being responsible. Or I might want to pick and choose along my responding. But actually I'm responding with or without. So picking and choosing is another thing that's calling to me to be responsible to it and be kind to it, but not fall into it That's a start. How about you? There's such a thing as individual responsibility for particular acts. Well, there's individual responsibility in a sense of, like, if I right now say, help, everybody knows, many people know that.

[39:42]

So you have an individual hearing of it And there's a Linda in front of you who also has an individual hearing of it. So you both hear me. That's your individual response. Her listening is not yours. So that's your individual listening. Then come and see me and Linda may stay seated. So that's two more individual responses. That's individual response. However, you're both responsible, I would say, in different ways, for me asking for help. I mean, you're part of the reason I asked for help. If you weren't in the room, I might not say help. So you're part of responsibility, because we are part of the conditions for the request. So we're responsible that way. And then we're responsible for how the situation is. and then it's individual.

[40:45]

But also I have, as an individual, I have a response to everybody else's responses and the way they fulfill theirs. So in that sense, my responsibility is individual but unbounded. There's no end to the way I'm individually responding to all beings. So this is a meditation on on responsibility. And I don't take all risks. If I call for help and I hear you, I don't think I'm the only one who heard you. I share responsibility for your call with other people who are listening to you. And if you have medical needs, I share the responsibility with the medics that are in the room. But their response might be different than mine. Mine might be, you know, I might not know how to do certain things that are called for.

[41:53]

Or even if I was a doctor, maybe another doctor would be more skillful than me. But part of studying self is to study responsibility, to study how we respond. That's part of what's going on in karmic consciousness, is a picture of how we respond. And again we think, I respond. It doesn't have to be seen that way. If I study responsibility, if I study the self, I may notice you called, or there was a call, and there was a listening. And I don't have to see it as, I listened. Before I think about, I listened, it may be seen that there was listening. So that's part of studying. There's an individual, there's a consciousness, there's a self, but maybe there's not confusion about the self that did the listening. And I feel a responsibility to study the situation.

[42:59]

There's a self, there's a call, and there's listening, and to see if there's delusion about that. And if there is, I feel called to be kind to that delusion. And there's a belief, or I should say, the consciousness, my life has been called to listen to the call. But I don't feel people are asking me to think that I did the listening. But some people say, yes, I want you to say you did the listening. Okay, I hear you. But I would say, although I don't think I did the listening. I think I was listening and I'm responsible. I accept responsibility for it. Yeah. Knowing you two, I don't know that you're really having a real conversation. So I'm wondering if you asked a real question and a real answer.

[44:01]

I'm kind of feeling like something very high up off the ground is going on here. And I just would love to hear what's actually needing to be communicated. Or maybe I'm just not listening. Thank you. There was a divergence there, maybe just because I couldn't, I ran out of ability to really listen or something. But let me just say that you're talking about helping people. I'm thinking about hurting people. So Linda said, I was talking about helping people and Linda's bringing up about hurting people, like being responsible for hurting people, you know. So, yeah, so if people... I wish to accept responsibility for them being hurt.

[45:07]

How's that? Getting there? So how's that for stuff? If people are being hurt, I wish to accept responsibility for it. Not all of it, because I'm not the only one who's responsible, but I want to accept responsibility for anybody who's being hurt. The person that I hurt, that I did something, especially people who say that they feel hurt by me. I sometimes do not intend to hurt someone, but they might say that I hurt them. But certainly if I wanted to, even if they didn't get hurt, if I wanted to hurt them, I certainly want to accept responsibility for wanting to hurt them. But if I wanted to hurt them and then they told me that I wanted to hurt them, then I want to accept not only responsibility for wanting to, but for succeeding.

[46:27]

And I guess I feel responsibility to feel what that's like if I want to hurt somebody and also if they tell me that they did feel hurt. I want to accept that responsibility. Pardon? Excuse me for talking so much. We're almost there. We're almost there. Very often, I don't think I want to hurt anybody. And I do. And later, I understand that I did. That you didn't want to? No, that I hurt them. I had no idea of wanting them. Right. So I just couldn't do it. Yeah, so sometimes we don't want to hurt someone And you did. Like a large person can step on a person's foot. They didn't mean to, but they did.

[47:29]

And they didn't know they did unless the person said, you hurt my foot. And then they maybe feel really bad that they did. Did we lose you or did we disconnect there? No, I just said enough. Oh, you said enough. Okay. My granddaughter tries to hurt me, and she often does not succeed, but she wants to. And then I also sometimes, when I see that she's approaching being able to succeed, I sometimes say, don't kick me in the face. But she wants to do that. I mean, she wants to find a place. And so she's trying to find ways to find my limits. So she sometimes does want to hurt me or wants to see how to be successful, and she keeps probing for that.

[48:37]

Yes. [...] If you'd rather stay back there, you may. Uh-huh. Yeah, I can see that. It might seem that way. I think there's a little bit left. Did everybody follow that? That being careful might seem like hesitation? Turning your head might seem automatic.

[49:44]

Yeah, automatic or unhesitating and maybe not and maybe... What? What? I see a difference between automatic and just here. Difference between automatic and just here? Yeah. So Sam had his hand raised and Claire has her hand raised. Do you want to speak to this issue of carefulness? No. So anyway, your point is received and meditated on, Julian, that being careful may seem like hesitation.

[50:56]

But it also could be an ongoing practice. that you're just being careful of everything you do. Like you reach for a pencil and you're not really hesitating, you're just reaching in a careful way. So in that case I wouldn't necessarily feel like being careful or gentle is hesitation. But I could see how if you're about to do something it may be that your carefulness practice would facilitate hesitation or not hesitation. Does that follow? That something listen and I'm trying to practice carefulness and then I kind of notice there's hesitation but I also sometimes might be listening and remember carefulness and it doesn't really interfere with the listening which is part of like a

[51:59]

play music and so on, to distinguish between the way to play and listen and be careful, but finally there's no hesitation. Yes, Sam? What drives us to rush into danger? What drives us to rush into danger? What drives us to turn the head? I would say, so you get called and the head is driven to turn. What's it driven by? I would say by process. It receives the message and it makes calculations and decides that it's okay to turn the head and the head turns. And there's no conscious intervention. and other cases something happens and we hesitatingly rush into danger, but with no conscious intervention.

[53:07]

Other times there's a conscious intervention, like this is dangerous, and I should say there's conscious awareness, it's dangerous, and then there seems to be a decision to go in. A decision can be made with or without hesitation, with or without the idea that I'm doing the rushing. Well, like, you can respond with hesitation and rush in, and you can respond with hesitation and rush in. And with hesitation maybe means I'm coming in there thinking, I'm doing the rushing. There might be suffering in both cases, but in one case, you may not be fooled into thinking that you're operating, that you are operating the rushing.

[54:19]

You don't see it that way. you see that the rushing is operating you, rather than you're operating the rushing. The other? Pardon? That's as good as it gets. Just be aware that I'm in the trunk of the rush. It's going to take me off the hill. I guess it's not exactly that's as good as it gets, it's just that that's what is being defined as awakening. When you understand that what is all things coming forth and doing you, and there's no hesitation, and you go into danger without the idea that you put yourself there. However, the other side of I put myself there is there too, and those two are working together. And the two working together is proposed as where the Buddha way is living by me.

[55:29]

You're welcome. Yes. I want to speak a little bit more about the no hesitation when you presented your stories. Like Linda, no hesitation alone is not sufficient for an awakened act. Like no hesitation, like in automation, or in very, well, babies have no hesitation, or animals, low evolutionary states have no hesitation because they react on reflexes or something like that. But there is not, there's something missing there. And I wonder if you could say something about the missing part. The no hesitation I'm putting together with But it doesn't have to be with it. There could be no hesitation from the point of view of I'm doing it. So there could be the deluded act of somebody calls and I deludedly turn and that's delusion.

[56:44]

There could also be that somebody calls and I turn the head with no hesitation, but realizing that the call turned my head, my body and mind turned my head, turned the head, not me. And one is awakening and the other is delusion. But the point is not that turning the head without hesitation, without delusion, is better than turning the head with delusion. Because again, he calls and the head turns, but then he tests again. There is still thinking that I did it. So once again, when called and the head turns, with no hesitation, but anyway, basically with no idea that I did the turning, that the self operated the head. That's awakening. And that's not the whole story. The whole story is that that is inseparable from I did turn the head, which might go often with hesitation.

[57:53]

How's that? Yeah, but could there not be a hesitation? The hesitation itself would be part of the awakened response. Yes, the hesitation itself is also not done by me. I understand that in the absolute view, but in the relative view, where we... Well, in the delusion would be, I think I did the hesitation. I think I paused for a minute to think, what is Buddha nature? Like I had to do something special to show my Buddha nature. That's delusion. But it demonstrates the Buddha nature. without me doing it. But the other one demonstrates Buddha nature too. They both demonstrate it. One's demonstrating the delusion side of Buddha nature, and one's demonstrating the awakened side of Buddha nature.

[58:59]

They're not separate. Yes? There's another factor that I'm thinking about, and I don't know that I'm quoting, I think it's Bruce Lee correctly, but something like, you don't rise to the occasion, you fall to the level of your training. So, in our business, we're training a lot for that response. It's not just the automatic thing that I would have done 20 years ago, or maybe, I don't know, but You know, something about our training, our commitment to practicing response to how to fall, how to meet danger skillfully. Yeah. And at a certain level of training, like you watch some people play the piano, they fall into that level, that fundamental level, where there's no self. to be involved in what they're doing.

[60:02]

They trained at this so that they gradually, the self has found a way to be there without taking any credit. It gets to be in this wonderful place. But it doesn't, the idea that the self is doing it is almost all . And in the earlier part of the training, it was there and it was interfering with the movement of the fingers. But finding the training was such that without getting rid of the self, it's no longer the least bit puffed up or misunderstood. Do you remember the Mount Mozart scene where the young saint, the young master, Riggioso, sang, sang, and the kid's like trying to sing, and finally he does. And you can hear it. Yeah, you can hear it. It stopped being there. You can hear where the self stopped thinking it was doing the violin, and the violin was doing the music, and the self got to be there with this awareness of this music.

[61:09]

Claire? You wonder if the body creates the self? I heard you say, does the body create the self, and then, slowly? The body gives, so at a certain point the body has evolved to a thing called mind. And then the mind has created a consciousness. We have different, we have an unconscious cognition. which works with the body and it has given rise to conscious cognition where there's a sense of self. So in a sense the body does give rise to mind, gives rise to the idea of self. Who is it? Well, it's a body. There's not a who there yet.

[62:15]

I think when we have fools, now we have the self. So then the fool might think, I'm rushing in. But it's really that the body and mind are rushing in, and the idea of self is there too. The self is not actually operating. the self is not operating the activities going on. But fools think that that's true, that the self is doing it. And again, we come by that honestly. Our body puts this sense, not just of a self, but it puts the idea that the self is operating what's going on. The self is operating the rushing in. The self is operating the hesitation. That's a delusion. The self is not operating what's going on in consciousness.

[63:32]

But there is a self in consciousness, in relationship to everything else, and there is a thought. And there is, in the activity there's a thought, the self is operating or orchestrating the activity. That's a delusion. which we can train to let go of. Being irresponsible to what's going on, to let go of it is only really possible. Let go of it doesn't mean deny it or neglect it. It means not to hold it as true. But see that it's still there, this idea, self is operating Yes?

[64:37]

Well, I don't know about choose, but the expression is, we willingly enter. The bodhisattva. Hmm? Something, oh, the bodhisattva is separate from the body? Did you say? No, the vow to enter into the world of suffering arises in bodies and minds. It doesn't, the vow isn't floating separate from bodies and minds. It's something that happens in a living body. Well, let's say that this vow realizes a state of peace and enters into awakening.

[65:59]

Okay? It enters into all things coming forward and realizing the vow. the vow is made through a relationship between a body and other bodies that have the vow. So a human body and mind can meet another human body and mind and in that interaction there can be an arising of this vow in a human body and mind. Pardon? Oh yeah, that does. So then the idea is that once this vow is arisen, that then it flows into practices and it flows into realization of awakening.

[67:09]

Okay? And this is kind of grown-up situation. Okay? Okay? And then in awakening, it gives up awakening and enters into delusion. Because the vow was not just to attain in awakening, it was to attain awakening for the sake of delusion. So the vow does enter into practices and does become awakened. The vow to awaken becomes realized. But that realized vow then lets go of that realization and plunges back into delusion by virtue of the vow. So the vow takes one to awakening and takes one beyond it back into delusion. transgresses awakening, willingly transgresses, all things come forward and realize me. Zen is practicing me.

[68:09]

When that's awakened, then the vow says, don't stay there. Now go visit, I practice Zen. Rough waters. And so it is kind of, you could say, a grown-up thing to do. But it's not just grown up, it's the grown-up vow. The vow has motivated and guided the practice to realize awakening, and then it has taken the practice beyond delusion back into delusion to realize awakening in delusion. So again, there's the vow motivates us to practice in delusion, which we've got, and by practicing in delusion, thoroughly, is awakening. But the vow doesn't stop there. It goes beyond awakening back into delusion to deepen the awakening and have the awakening be carried now back in delusion.

[69:13]

And that's kind of a grown-up thing to do. a lot of training to be able to practice with the aid of the vow and doing it with everybody to practice compassion in the middle of delusion and then realize awakening and then because of the vow not hold back and open up to delusion again and practice compassion with it again and realize awakening more and more deeply in delusions. to go to deeper and deeper aspects of delusion. And some strange people think this sounds like a good deal. Other people are horrified with going deeper and deeper into the delusion.

[70:18]

But the vow is to go into all realms of delusion. But also carefully, don't rush in too deep too soon. And honor your sense of limitations and what seems to be too advanced. And so we've had this intensive and some people have had some difficulties and They've told us about their difficulties and we've made adjustments so that we can continue together. And yeah, we're still pretty much all here. One person used the expression, grueling, grueling. It's been arduous, it's been scary, it's been all that. I remember one sesshin at the beginning, Suzuka, she said, well, here we go, we're going to do this sesshin, and if some of you need a chair, we can have a chair.

[71:23]

And if it gets too cold, we'll turn the heat on. But we're going to get through this together. So we're practicing this together, and it's, you know, if it seems too advanced, let us know. We can maybe so that we can keep going together.

[71:42]

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