And the person who is not afraid of the risk still feels satisfaction and fascinated because it's a challenge and it feels good. How do you know that it's like a spiritual experience and not just a psychological thing? She says, how do you know if it's a spiritual experience? I think the thing that makes it spiritual is when you aren't trying to know if it's a spiritual experience. psychological experiences you want to know. I had that psychological experience. I did, you know, have that thrill of using another, you know, using a different part of my body to do that dance. You know, a new dimension of my being came into play when I did that dance, you know. I was the tango person, I was the samba person, I was the, you know, all these different beings that you can, you know, those are psychological experiences. Spiritual experiences are experiences of what it's like not to care anymore about knowing whether you're having a psychological experience or not. And then, that's a spiritual experience, okay? So, material experiences you can attach to, like having a certain kind of a body or having certain material things, you can attach to those.

[01:10]

Psychological things you can attach to, and you can attach to spiritual things. Spiritual things, however, are like not being attached to psychological things. And psychological things could overcome attachment to physical things. So there's a hierarchy. The worst one to attach to is the spiritual things. The worst one? Yeah, the worst one to attach to. Because if you attach to spiritual things, almost no one can help you. Whereas if you attach to psychological things, a lot of people can help you by saying, you know, you're kind of attached to dancing. I think you should stop. You know, because I noticed, you know, if you don't go dancing, you get really depressed. You're getting addicted to dancing. They can see your attachment to the psychological experience of dancing. But if you're, how can anybody, it's very difficult for people to catch you at not even caring about what psychological experiences you're having. You know, you don't even care whether you go dancing or not. You go dancing and people say, don't go dancing. You say, fine, what do you want me to do? This is like a spiritual attainment.

[02:10]

You see? But not a lot of people, sometimes you don't wonder if this is in my mind or if this is in a spiritual experience. They come here, for instance, and they sit in front of you and they feel good because they conquered that fear. Yeah. And they feel good and they think, oh, I'm expanding my spirit. Yeah, right. But maybe they're just happy in their mind because... Well, that's pretty good. You know, but... Happy in your mind is good. And they're not wondering if it's a mind thing or a spiritual thing, but they... Well, it's a psychological... Oh, it's a spiritual, but maybe they're just happy because they conquered something they were afraid of. Right. Or so was difficult. You're right. That's a psychological experience. But even though they are no wondering if it's psychological, I am wondering. You're wondering. But they are experiencing, and they are no wondering about it themselves. They're not? I mean, give an example. Let's say they're not, okay? Right. Okay, so then what's happening is they're meeting that psychological experience, with mind. Not no mind. They're grasping that psychological experience.

[03:14]

They're saying, okay, I came to the retreat. I was afraid. I went up there. I courageously went up there. I got over the fear and I felt great. And they're grasping that, maybe. But they also might go up overcome the fear, feel great, and let go of it. Say, that's over, now I'm afraid of something else now. So I think I'll go face that fear. And they go face that one and say, that was fun. And they don't grasp that, and they go face the next one. So we can tell, you know, maybe, by this way, that where is this grasping or not? And if there's no grasping, then they say, not only did I go there, face my fear, get over it, I feel great and not grasp that, but I even, like then, didn't grasp my breakthrough. I'm not grasping. I didn't even grasp that. And now I really feel great and I'm not grasping that either. I'm feeling great, you know. And now I'm here to say, anybody who want to test me, I'm not grasping because I'm not grasping anything. And then somebody says, yeah, would you please do this? And you say, whoops. Now I guess I ain't grasping something. But then again, that's a sign...

[04:17]

that you're willing to come back into that world of grasping the lowest thing. Because the Buddhas are not like up there, not totally free of all grasping. They come right back down into the realm of grasping. They go round and round. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for those three-sided questions. I don't know who's next, but let's go Carolyn and Elizabeth and Carolyn, would you please move that cushion backward a little bit? A little bit more, please. Well, actually, that's good. I'll just sit down. Can you see me okay? Can you see her okay?

[05:18]

All right. What I was thinking about was that one way I really cling is I don't want to be seen as ordinary. Carolyn has just told us something. Did you hear what she said? No. Can I tell them? This person right before us doesn't want to be seen as ordinary. You have that? And you kind of cling to that a little bit? A lot. She clings to it a lot. So she has this thought, I don't want to be seen ordinary, and she kind of holds that. Okay, good. Now you know. And the more intimate you are with this not... Clinging to not wanting to be ordinary... Well, you know, of course, clinging to not wanting to be ordinary is quite ordinary. You know that. Like, you know...

[06:19]

In America, even in slums, most of the different shanties look different. Like in Houston, there's some kind of slummy neighborhoods. But they look different. All the different shacks look different. And in the nicer neighborhoods, or the richest neighborhoods, all the houses look different. And a lot of them look different. You go to England or something, and you go into certain neighborhoods, and all the houses are exactly the same. And it's kind of frightening to face this ordinariness. We are afraid of being ordinary. Because if we're ordinary, then, yikes! So that's quite ordinary to not want to be ordinary. What's extraordinary is to face how much we don't want to be ordinary. Just to face that and face it until you let go of being ordinary and you let go of being unordinary and you let go of wanting to be special. But you have to face it. So your job is just to face this thing you've got. and you will be free of it if you face it, if you meet it.

[07:27]

And when you meet it, when it comes up, don't meet it like, okay, I want to meet this, I want to work on this. It comes up on its own schedule. Meet it when it comes. Meet it when it's presented to you. The Buddha is giving you this lesson. Accept it, study it, and you'll be free of it. What I'm noticing as you say that is I'm... And that will be extraordinary. Woody, yeah, right. I can also feel myself wanting to, you know, grab the technique. Ken was talking about the technique. I could feel that very quickly. Well, I did sort of tell you a technique, didn't I? But it'll work best when you don't try to hold on to it. Because now you've heard this, it'll just pop up when you need it. Thank you. You're welcome. Elizabeth? Would you come closer, please?

[08:32]

Do you mind? No. Thanks. Okay, the thing that I don't like about anxiety... The thing you don't like about anxiety? Is that I want to meet people. I want to meet you. Yes. But if I'm anxious, I find it hard to even listen or to respond. Right. I agree. I think we all understand that. This is the problem of anxiety. It stymies us, it inhibits us, blah, blah, blah. But the people who become free of this tremendously afflictive phenomenon called anxiety are the people who face it. The curriculum of Buddhism is anxiety. You study that anxiety. The more you study it, the more you become patient with the pain of it, the closer you get to seeing its conditions. And its conditions are grasping, for example, grasping that I'm separate from you and so on.

[09:39]

You'll see the conditions and you will become free of it. The conditions for... Anxiety is abiding in things. The more you notice how you're abiding in things, the closer you get to non-abiding. When non-abiding is realized, you'll understand that the source of the anxiety is just light. I mean, there's nothing really there. And then you'll be free. And then you'll be able to meet. So meanwhile, while I'm busy abiding, and I'm talking to someone, There's like a non-meeting going on. Yeah, there's a non-meeting going on. Right. And right at the same time as a non-meeting, there's a meeting. It's hard to see it because the non-meeting is kind of like you're holding to that, too. Because it's, you know, it's hard not to because your clinger's up there. That's right.

[10:40]

That's what it's like. Okay? It's like that. for all of us until that point. Until we see the other side, there's going to be this side. Until we see that there's no basis, that there's... until we realize non-abiding, there's going to be abiding. We're going to be dwelling. And as long as there's dwelling, there's going to be not meeting. There's going to be hindrance. There's going to be suffering. But still, we could want to enter into that world of suffering with all beings because we understand, although it's difficult to do that, we understand that that's where we're going to grow. So the fact that you and others are able to report this means that you are to some extent letting yourself be in this world with all beings. And it's this world where Buddha lives and works.

[11:42]

So you're kind of in the right place. You're having the kind of experiences that we have on the path. And until you're enlightened, you're going to not be enlightened. And when I say until you're enlightened, you're not going to be enlightened, I also mean until all of us are enlightened, none of us are going to be enlightened. That even postpones it more. But there can be more and more joy in the practice. And then more and more challenges. And then more and more joy and more and more challenges. What do you say now? I'm wondering where you are. You're wondering where I am? Where I am and what practice? What makes you anxious? What makes me anxious? Everything. Everything makes me anxious.

[12:44]

You don't act like it. I don't act like it? I don't act like it? I said I act. Tell me how to act. I'm going to shake. You can get confused about what you're going to say. I can get confused about what I'm saying. But if I'm always confused, I learn how to talk in the middle of confusion. I'm into a practice that won't break down when I get confused. I'm into a practice, I want to find a practice that will continue if I get Alzheimer's. I don't want to have a practice that dwells in my intelligence. I don't want a practice that dwells in my enlightenment or my delusion. I want to find the practice that doesn't dwell anywhere. So that if I get confused, if I lose my memory, if I get sick, the practice goes on.

[13:48]

And out of that practice comes the Buddha Dharma. Just like no matter how healthy I am or how sick I am, the Buddha Dharma comes to me, so I want the Buddha Dharma to flow through me and out of me no matter what's going on with me. So I want to be able to enter into anxiety and be at peace with it and have it not hinder me. So I'm not afraid to be with anxious people. I'm not afraid to be with people's mucus and shit and blood and pain and anxiety and fear and hatred and love and lust and desire and confusion. And then if I'm willing to be there and all that, it can look kind of like it doesn't bother me. And it actually kind of doesn't. But still, anxiety is here. But do I grasp it? Sometimes I don't.

[14:49]

So then I can just be anxious with you. You know, and not hurry for you to stop being anxious. You can be anxious as long as you want. It doesn't make that much difference to me. It's because, you know, I'm already anxious. So you can be anxious with me. You can stop being anxious. I can stop being anxious. It's fine, you know, either way. We're together forever. Until this whole thing is worked out. Until the whole world is worked out. I'm ready to go back now. You ready to go back? Thanks for coming to visit. Thank you. You're welcome. Here it goes. Here it goes. Here it comes. It's my first time to... even ask a question, let alone come right up your face. It's the first time to have a koan happen.

[15:52]

Yes. Here's a koan. Public case. It's called the public case. Public example. Charlie meets Reb. Charlie meets Reb at Tenzo. Are you here for this one? Yes, I hope so. I'm trying to remember my question now. I'm still going back a few minutes. Forget the question. Just forget it. I don't want to sit here for two or three minutes quietly. You don't want to? You've been talking most of the time you've been here. Don't worry. I've been asking this question for the last 10 minutes, so what question is it? Well, I might have come up with a situation where it's maybe better not to take a risk. So let me see if I can put it to you. I'm trying to be a writer. I'm trying to be creative. And I enjoy expressing myself through my writing.

[16:54]

In writing, a lot of times they tell you not to kill the critic in yourself and just leave. It's coming out. Yeah, take a risk. Right. One thing I'm doing with my writing, I've been writing for... Writing is risky. You get killed for it. Well, the thing that's risky is putting it out there to someone and have them critique it. It's even risky to write it and hide it in your closet. Somebody might find it and blow your head off. That's right. If you put it out in the street, it's even more dangerous. Writing is dangerous. Everything is dangerous. Okay, writing is dangerous. You took a risk. You wrote something, and I have a copy of it now. I'm taking a big risk. I'm really... putting my heart into it and being on it and saying a lot of things that I'm not even ready to tell people to put out into the world. That's good. One thing I don't want to take a risk in is I'm reluctant to share my writing with members of my family because I think they'll say, oh, you can't write and it doesn't make sense and oh, you don't talk about that.

[18:04]

Right. That's called being married. And having teenage kids. That's called being married and having teenage kids. It's called endangering your truth. Here's my real truth. I wrote it down. Here's my truth. Here, here. You show it to them. It's in big danger. It is. Yeah. And that's what being married is about. Right. But I, so, you know, I think there's some bliss and ignorance, in a sense. In their ignorance? No. In my own, in that I don't really want to know yet whether it's any good what I'm writing or whether people... Even if they criticize your writer, you still won't know anything. All you know, all you know... Well, I'm only going to believe what they're saying to me. Or if you believe it, then you'll know something, won't you? But it may... Because you'll think it's true. Yes. And it may stifle my creativity. I mean, I've had experiences where I put a little bit out and it's gotten... Yeah, so you're not ready to marry your family? then you're not ready to marry your family. But that's what it's about. It's about putting something out there that you created, and the danger is that if you show it to somebody and they don't like it, that may stifle your creativity.

[19:10]

You may say, okay, well, I'm not going to create anything more ever because as soon as I do little things and I show it to people and they're going to like it, so I'm not an artist anymore because it's painful to be an artist, and they're not an estimate. People are criticizing my art, so I'm not going to do any more art. And then you sort of go through that phase, okay? It's called pouting. He'd go out and he'd slammer the door and say, I'm not going to create anything from me. And he'd get over that, you know, and he'd go, okay, I'll create something else and I'll show it to people and they'll shoot on it again. And I'll probably not hurt me and I'll go hide again. This is part of the creative process. That's what happens to artists. Michelangelo, he had some hard times too, you know. All these people got criticized and they're still getting criticized. There's a profession to criticize them. Okay? So if you want to be an artist and avoid getting criticized, well then, you know, go to another universe. So if you have to open to criticism, otherwise you're not going to be able to create.

[20:17]

Because if you close down your anxiety about criticism, you close down the creative process. If you shut your eyes to the anxiety of being criticized for your art, you shut your eyes to the material you need for your art. And if you open your eyes to the anxiety you feel about being criticized, then you open your eyes to the information you need to create. And then you create. But then the next phase is to put it out there and get feedback and criticism and then deal with that and grow from that. So it's very clear where to go, but if you're not ready, if you don't want to be an artist, then don't be an artist. Okay? But if you want to be an artist, then that part of it is to put the stuff out there. Well, I'm afraid someone could put it out or I could put it out too soon into the wrong hands. Yes. Yeah, right. People tell me, you know, they say, don't publish your talks until they're copyrighted because somebody could steal them. You know, steal what?

[21:20]

Yeah, so people will advise you that way. People say, yes, it's good to close down, protect yourself. In other words, don't be an artist. It's up to you. If you want to be an artist, there's only one way to go, and that is express yourself and go in the direction of opening to your anxiety about your art. Don't protect yourself. If you want to be like another artist, then protect yourself. So the way of art is to open to the danger. It's totally about that. It's totally about that. Not everybody wants to be an artist, so they don't have to be artists. But we're talking about being artists here. What if you put your soul out there and people really knock it down and you end up believing that they're right, that you don't have talent, that you're not expressing yourself, etc., etc. ? If you grasp anything, okay, that's closing down.

[22:23]

That's not artistic. Artistic is to not grasp things. And then from that not grasping, you have something to say. So if you think that if you put your art out there and people like it, that you're going to believe it. Yeah. Okay? Be inspired and I'll do better. No, you'll do worse. That'll kill your art. If you put your art out there and people like it and you grasp that, you're done. If you put your art out there and they don't like it and you grasp it, you're done. Well, the opposite seems to happen when I do put it out there and it is responded to in a positive way. It opens up No, I don't think so. And I get more inspired. I don't think so. When it's shot down, it creates... I don't think so. That's not hard. Lots. That's not hard. I don't think so. I disagree. Okay. Okay, so we disagree.

[23:29]

Is that okay? Is that okay that we disagree? Yeah, except I'm going to end up agreeing with you. You're probably going to disagree. I'm going to start showing my work to people who I'm afraid to show it to. You're going to start showing your work to people you're afraid to and take the chance? You are? I think so. You are? That sounds dangerous. Well, if they criticize it, I just won't believe that they know what they're talking about. And move right on. That sounds real good. Or should I believe that they know what they're talking about? Nobody knows what they're talking about. People just talk. People just talk. But still, even though they talk, it's still hard to hear what they say sometimes. You know, you're stupid, you're lousy, you're no good, blah, blah, that hurts. Yeah, right. Yeah, it hurts. But they don't know what they're talking about.

[24:31]

They're just there to help you develop. This is just the Buddha Dharma. Buddha Dharma is coming to you. The Buddha Dharma is, you are stupid, okay? That's not the truth. It's not literally true. That's just something to help you grow. You're not a good writer. You're a terrible writer. It could be true. It could be true. Well, it's not. You're not a terrible writer. And that's not true either. I just am what I am. You are what you are. And nobody can say what that is. Even though people talk about you all the time. It's just talk. You know, all the things that everybody in the universe could say about you, add it all up and it still doesn't touch you. You're still more than that. But all those things affect you because you're connected to all these people. And everything that they say touches you and affects you and you feel something because you're a sentient being. And if you can open to that, art will be manifested in the world.

[25:35]

And if you close to it, then art's hindered. But it's hard to open to it because it's so, it's so, you know, it's so intense. Artists have exposed themselves to intensity. Well, believing in yourself, I think, has a lot to do with creating well. Believing in yourself has a lot to do with it? I think maybe so. I think what really has to do with creativity is forgetting yourself. Then you can really create. You can be anything. It's all open. You can forget yourself. You can't remember now. Am I a painter or a writer or a falcon or a song or a storm? Am I? You can be anything. You can be creation if you forget yourself. That's a Buddha. So self-respect or liking yourself or trusting yourself, that's real cute, but it doesn't really release your potential.

[26:45]

Forgetting yourself, not abiding in yourself, that releases your potential. So let go of looking for results. Let go of looking for results, correct. put that purple out there, put that canvas out there, put that marble out there, and go at it with no attachment to result. You are trying to make a result. You're trying to sculpt this or paint that, right? But you let go of it. You're not attached to it. So the art can happen. If you try to make what you, if you're attached to what your goal is, your attachment will pretty much destroy it. But if you work without attachment for what you want, it will happen. I mean, something will happen, not what you intend, but something will happen and it will be art. I can understand letting go of the negative feedback. You can understand letting go of the negative feedback?

[27:46]

Yeah, go ahead, let go of it. And let go of the positive too. Positive is very helpful. It's all right. Give me some more positive. Most artists I've heard, they think the negative is more helpful than the positive. You read what the great ones say. Do you think it helped Picasso when somebody came over and said, well, that was really good what you painted there. Do you think that's what made him? It was the negative stuff that made him grow. He was okay when he was a kid, you know. He made these real nice drawings. Did you see his drawings he made when he was a kid? He was good. His dad probably said, that's very good. He made these nice drawings. They were good. He was skillful. It wasn't art. Then he started doing this stuff, and his father said, are you crazy? Get out of my house. And then he started to grow. What? He was in an earthquake. He was in an earthquake, yeah. Artists grow from earthquakes, not from people saying, oh, Charlie, you're doing really well.

[28:50]

This is really swell. It's really great. That's not how you grow as artists. That's how you grow as an egocentric person. And most of you, I hope, have enough egocentrism now for it to start to move into art. If you don't have an ego, then you come and we'll start stroking you. But that's not art. That's ego development. Art is ego transcendence. Got an ego? Okay, everybody got an ego? Got a neurotic ego? Okay. Now how do you make art from that place? You don't make art from stroking and caressing and affirming the negative things. tortured little person. You make the art by forgetting about this guy and doing things which would endanger him. Which you just did. You came up here and this was art. And it was lousy. I shouldn't have turned him off. I know it.

[29:50]

I shouldn't have turned him off. I know it. I shouldn't have turned him off. I know it. And it just grew again when I said that. Do you see it? Huh? I knew you still loved it even though you said it was lousy. You know I loved it even though I said it was lousy? Yeah. You're right. You're absolutely correct. Whether it's lousy or not lousy, I love it. Whatever it is, I love it. That's Zen practice. Love whatever it is. It's hard to put something out there that someone hates. It's hard to put something out there that someone hates? Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is hard, but that's what it's like to live. If I put myself out there, somebody hates it. Whenever I put myself out there, somebody hates it. That's my life. People hate me. If I put myself out there, they hate me. If I lie, people don't hate me. If I hide, people don't hate me.

[30:53]

Actually, they appreciate it. that from the last time I put myself out there. But generally speaking, I'm not saying everybody hates me. I'm not saying each and every one of you hate everything I do. I'm just saying some of the time all of you will hate what I do if I express myself. And also some of the time all of you will love what I do if I put myself out there. You'll love it to see somebody actually like do it. You'll love it and you'll hate it. But if I lie and hide then most of you won't love me or hate me, and I'll be safe in my little cocoon. But I don't have much time left, so I'm coming out. And I know, I've already found out that in my coming out, quite a few people hate me. Like last night, that lady thought this was a cult, right? But that same lady really wants to talk to me. she really wants to talk to me she wants to meet this person because she thinks I have nice teeth and she wants me to bite her okay

[32:21]

I have to let go of my ego a little bit more. You have to let go of your ego completely. But, you know, I'm patiently waiting for, you know, when that time comes. And if it takes you forever, that's not too long for me. I think that... If it happens in the next few minutes, that's fine, too. I think your talk on doing the dangerous thing helped me because here I am. Yeah, here you are. First time. Yeah, it's first time. Congratulations. Thank you. Let's see, it's a quarter of five now, so we've been going on quite a while, haven't we? So maybe you'd like to have some time yourself. Okay? Unless there's somebody who wants to say something more now. Is enough? You okay? No? Yes?

[33:21]

You're okay? Oh, you better come up again then. You're not that okay? What are you doing here? What are you doing here? I've been invited. You've been invited and you accepted the invitation. Thank you for coming. Thank you. Thank you for asking. You're very welcome. I liked inviting you. May I go now? May you go? You certainly may go. I just want to say one thing. You just want to say one thing? I love the poem you keep referring to. You love the poem I keep referring to? The falcon, the storm. Oh, you love that poem? I love it too. She loves the poem. I don't know if I'm a falcon. I don't know if I'm a falcon, a storm, or a great song. She loves that poem. Did you want to tell something to me, Marco?

[34:26]

Following on the artist. Oh, he was an artist. I'm very nervous sitting here with you and, you know, the situations where... I'm enjoying the nervousness. Are you? Are you enjoying it? I am enjoying it. Good. But it's funny, when I do my artwork, I don't have that nervousness. I don't have that anxiety. And it's almost... I'm sort of witnessing everything and not attaching. And somehow when I'm sitting here, I think my nervousness is about attaching to what I think I should be saying or what I think. Was there ever a point in your art where you were attached to what it should look like and how you should do it? Maybe early on.

[35:38]

Yeah. And were you nervous then? Not really. Not really? Actually, I kind of had fun. Fun with that? Maybe fun attaining what I thought I wanted. Yeah. But now with my artwork, I don't have any... I mean, I have big ex... I don't know how to say... I put myself in a big challenge. You put yourself in a challenge. You put yourself in danger. In danger. You put yourself in a... You do that willingly. I do that willingly. And that's where you grow. Yeah. Yeah. And now you're doing that here, too. And this is where you grow. This is a new art form for you. It is. Yeah, the interpersonal is much harder. At what age are you? 42. At 42, you're a beginner. Yeah. Yeah, so you're starting a new thing, so you have all that fresh, that fresh beginner's experience. Of not knowing.

[36:40]

And you don't know, right. And I don't either. And that was with you. It feels really good. And then it feels so nervous and cool. And that's OK. And then maybe it will again. Yes? Can you what? You can say something? Yeah. What do you want to do? I want to say something I feel I want to say to you. Okay, go ahead. If I ever hurt you... If you ever hurt me? Yeah. In the future, I did not have any intention to do that.

[37:40]

If I did, I would like to apologize to you now. And also I would like to share a song. Well, maybe it's the mobile copy at the beginning of... You want to sing a song? Please sing a song. It's the verse we chained at the beginning of the... Yes. And I just learned that verse in Chinese recently. And since the beginning, I really want to share with you about... She wants to sing a song, which is a song version of the chant that we did at the beginning of the talk today. It's a chant for opening the scripture. So she knows a musical version of that, which she wants to sing. In Chinese. In Chinese. What we chanted today was a translation from Chinese. That poem, that verse, was written by the Empress Wu of China, the great female emperor.

[38:44]

of China. The only one really. I think the only emperor in Chinese history was Empress Wu. And she wrote a lot of Buddhist poetry. And this is one of her poems. I'm a little nervous. You're a little nervous? Would you please sing a song? Yes. When you are born, I shall be born. I shall be born. Watch me, keep [...] me.

[40:12]

May our intention Equally penetrate every being and place. With the true Merit Of Buddha's Way

[41:26]

In ten directions All bodhisattvas Honored ones Mahasattvas Wisdom gone beyond wisdom. Maha prajnaparamita.

[42:20]

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