Questions on what remains of this section we're reading now? The remains of the discourse on the citta-samparyukta-samskaras? Yes? Why would someone from the ecstatic tradition study what?

[01:06]

Maybe it's just... Wait a minute, I can't hear you. Okay. Could you hear me? Good evening. Did you say that people, you're wondering why people in Abhidharma delineate the stages of Vipadhatu? Any comments? Anybody want to answer the question? Try to answer the question. Do you have any comments, Dan?

[02:13]

He's saying in the ecstatic, why would the ecstatic person, why did the ecstatic people delineate the various stages in the reproductive? Or another way he asked it was why did they, why would they go in those states? Our bodhisattvas want to do that. How about someone who... You said they want to enter every state.

[03:21]

Is that true for all Buddhist practices? Maybe he said you don't want to, but you have to go through them whether you want to or not. Okay. Any other comments? Well, not schools of Buddhism, but anyway, some styles of practice would avoid certain states. Bodhisattvas wouldn't avoid them, but who would avoid certain states? What styles of practice would avoid certain states? Once again, that's a school, so what style of practice? Arhat practice, really. They wouldn't go into all states. As a matter of fact, as you kind of zero in on entering the path, at a certain point you can't cut off the possibility of going to hell states.

[04:44]

But, Aside from saying that you'd want to enter them, then maybe you could just say that a Buddhist might feel some responsibility to explain all those states or tell about all those states, because the Abhya Dharma is about, you know, the whole picture, not just the fortunate side, but just the whole picture. Because there has to be some teaching for people who are in those states who want to come out of them or who want to let them go to their natural demise. So the Abhidharmist, for one thing, would want to, or the ecstatic tradition, for one thing, wants to just say everything that's happening, just so you can teach everything that's happening. And you could also say, well, do they want to go in those states to sort of

[05:54]

or check out their understanding in various states, or extend their enlightenment thoroughly through all the states. But strictly speaking, they only extend their enlightenment into the states you're asking about, namely the lofty states. And in one sense you could see they want to test themselves to see if they can go into these lofty states and not misunderstand them as liberation themselves. That's not the point so much that they make, but that's one point you could say that that's being taken care of, namely they go into these states which are very much like nirvana without being fooled by them, without being fooled into grabbing them as nirvana themselves. They'll grab nirvana, give it a chance. But they won't settle for these states as nirvana because they see these states are arisen out of causes and conditions.

[07:06]

These states which are like either perception or non-perception or even a state where perception and feelings have stopped. They know that that's not nirvana. Even though it's a stopping of mental consciousness and physical consciousness too, there's nothing going on. body and mind is suppressed, they know that that suppression is a karmic result. They know that. So they're not fooled by it. But the emphasis seems to be rather that they're not fooled by it rather than they go into that state to check out to see if they'd be fooled by it. See the difference? When the Aryan goes into those states, already they aren't fooled by it. They know as they enter them that they're putting together causal factors to produce an effect. And they do that just as a magical show. They're not fooled by it. At the level of thinking it's nirvana anyway. So why do they go in those states?

[08:16]

What's the algorithmic culture say? It says they go in those states, they particularly go in that state because it's excellent rest. That's one reason. Another reason is that it's just... So that's one reason they go into these states. They're very restful. Especially the highest one is neuroticimapathy. It's a very restful condition. It's not associated with mind or mental states, but it's very restful. And that's the only reason why an Aryan would go in there. And that's not actually on the... You're not supposed to go in there. It's not recommended or anything. It's not part of the standard path, but the other states are part of the path. You're supposed to go into those. You're supposed to go into these various realms to develop the darshani-marga and bhavani-marga. But then again, a good enough reason is just that they know what's going on there so that they can say what's happening in those realms.

[09:19]

And as far as their work goes, of being mindful of dharmas and discerning what's happening in dharma, events, those states aren't, they're no better or worse than kamadhatu. You just have to do a little meditation to get into them, a special kind of meditation. So their basic work goes on, but just that they check out the character of those states, and it's useful for their thorough knowledge of all possible forms of existence. but they don't go in those states to experience the state as such, but rather just to know about it. But as I say, the bodhisattvic way is more go in those states as a test, you know, that actually you go in those states because you need to go in to develop yourself.

[10:21]

But then the bodhisattva has the same attitude towards other states that aren't these lofty ones. Then they can also go into the lower states. Because Aryans don't actually go into the lower states. And it also says in the Yandermi Kosha that actually you don't, if you, this is the Kamandatu, if you drop something or are disconnected from some passion here also disconnect from that passion in the next realms also you don't have to drop it you don't have to go up there and drop the thing up there too it's dropped up there too even though you only drop it here or you only drop it here or you only drop it here if you drop it here it's dropped there too

[11:23]

It's not actually dropped there. The possibility for it is cut off. So you don't actually have to destroy a glacier or let go of a glacier or cut a glacier in all realms, in all times. Even though you always do it in one place at one time, it takes care of other places at another time. So it's not that you have to go up in those states to get rid of it. According to the... You know, it doesn't come up anymore. The possibility for it was cut at that point, too, in the other realms. So that's why you don't have to go to the rupa-dhatu and our rupa-dhatu. If you stay in the kama-dhatu and extinguish these passions, they're also extinguishing higher realms. If you look at some of those things that are still possible in the rupadattu, their passions too.

[12:53]

And also there can be latent passions. Even in the rupadattu there can be latent passions called anushayas. It's possible to go to the rupadattu and come back when they seem to come up again. But once you've extinguished them in the kamadattu or the rupadattu, they're extinguished. They don't come back. Extinguished means you've had insight into them. You no longer are full by them. Which is their nature. Their nature is fullness. That's what they're describing in these places. And so this leaves a little bit something more to be talked about. Namely, to discuss a little bit more why bodhisattvas to go into various realms if and if things are taken care of across realms and also why do these but I think we already explained why these people go across these realms not to extinguish them but just to know they extinguish a problem here it's also taken care of here but they go up in these realms just to know what these things are like and just to describe the lay of the land and also I just you could also think of it as political

[14:13]

That they shouldn't, they should have the skills to do those exercises. It shouldn't be that they don't go in those states because they're unskillful. And it shouldn't be, and they shouldn't know less than the instatic people do. So in fact, they want to be as knowledgeable about these states, even though they're not particularly concerned with them. Okay? in terms of result. Result. Act. The Bodhisattva. Result as opposed to intent. I don't mind. Why? You shouldn't practice it. I'd say both by what you're saying.

[15:40]

They didn't get there just by, some of it by accident. want attention, just as a result of some exercise, you might wind up there. But also, you might go there just because, believe it or not, bodhisattvas, although they have enough of doing a kamadatta, they all want to do anything, too. To never go to those realms just because you have enough of doing a kamadatta, it's easy to understand in our daily life. But in fact, the bodhisattva path is on a scale that encompasses the possibility that you finish off the kamadatta. And you'd have to go that alone. That one round could be temporarily exhaustible. You might not have any other work to do. You say, well, . And for some reason or other, there's no request on me to come about to. That would be particularly the cave if you were . And that's where you'd find a lot of Mahayama monks.

[16:41]

go into the states, and they run out of people. And they run out of people inside, too. You run out of places, you run out of people. There's no trees in the walls. Say you've done the walls pretty well, so then you just go around. And they do just to, in some ways similar, just to know what they're like, and also see if you can see through the events in those spaces, too. Because it's a little bit different. The attention will have a different quality there. And the bodhisattva, not so different from the arhat. In one sense, the bodhisattva, the dharmas will look a little different. But they look a little different than the arhat, too. And he goes to analyze dharmas up in these higher realms. It's a little bit different. So in some sense, you do acquire, maybe, the skill of learning something from another point of view.

[17:45]

But what they're learning is different. They all have going up there analyzing things down into genres, and the photoshop is going, they're analyzing these down into genres, and you see through the genres. They're all different set of genres. So they would go up there. They would tend to go up there. Because those realms are essentially deep. And if you go into those realms, They also project you into the realms, the result of realms of those practices. One thing is that it's a practice of the jhana where you analyze these events. The other is the result of the practice of the jhana. And there are beings who you will meet inside and outside your body when you go into the realms, being basically a bliss. And so there's an infinite number of holistic experiences that, to result in these medications, which the Bodhisattva would have to go through.

[18:48]

So that's just as much as a practice as to go into the Buddhist realms in the common doctor, or hell realms in the common doctor, to then end to say those to save, meet, liberate, or let go of those events, too. But it's a both by result and by . For both our hops and boysuckers. But just what they do when they get there is a little bit different. OK? Any other questions on this? Yes? You don't have filled in? Yeah, we said that in the first layer of the Rupadatu is 20. Huh? You don't have all Rupadatu filled in?

[19:56]

All Rupadatu will be the same as the higher, highest realm of the Rupadatu. Huh? They use four Dharmas. They have the same number of Dharmas. The Arup Yadatta, the formless realm, there's no... Dhamically speaking, there's no evolution. The neutrals are... What are the neutrals? What are the neutrals of what? Rubadhatu? What? So what are the heavens of what? Yeah. But they're nice, they're political dharmas. So what's the difference between, it says, what are the heavens like?

[21:04]

What kind of dharmas are in the heavens? It said in the Commodore. So in the Commodore, we did it, right? So Commodore, there's 18 if it's defiled and 12 if it's neutral. Let's just think about it. If you read this stuff and just sort of put it together, one is that we know that in the common Dattu there's how many dharmas in the neutral?

[22:14]

Twelve? And the heavens are undefiled, right? So there's probably not more than twelve. Do you think that makes sense? Undefiled, but there's only twelve. What's missing, in a sense? What aren't there? What are some significant omissions? Kushana Klesha. So the Klesha are not there because it's undefiled. And the Kushala, the Klesha Mahabhunikas are not there because it's undefiled. And the Mahabhutas of the Kushala and our Kushala are not there because it's neutral. So is there anything else that we would eliminate, that we might eliminate in these heavens?

[23:22]

in the highest ones we probably wouldn't we wouldn't expect that the heaven would have what the jhana didn't what else but not in the triple world doesn't mean that they're outside the triple world either the triple world is the only place you come in contact with them because that's all there is so they're not outside the triple world either they're not inside they're not inside or outside they have no location they don't exist but

[24:30]

you can know them. They can be objects of perception. And the ecstatic tradition would say, you can know them wherever you are, you can know them. The ecstatic tradition says the place to know them is the loftiest state, where you know them. Did you follow that? It's a sort of side point from what we're talking about. The Instaic tradition would say that you ascend the ladder, the worldly ladder, and you get to the top of the worldly ladder, the top of the Arupadatu, the top of the formless realm. On top of that, you enter Neuroda Simapati. And then from Neuroda Simapati, or Bhavogya, see, there's actually, as I said, there's a penthouse on top of this formless realm called Bhavogya. From that penthouse, you can go into neuroticynopathy, but also it's a good place to go into neurotic form, to go into nirvana form.

[25:41]

It's a slightly different switch. You can either go into looking at nirvana or grasping nirvana. But that's the place to grasp upon. Your existence is almost the same as nirvana. You can hardly discriminate. In terms of qualities of your existence, there's no way to discriminate between that and nirvana. But you know that in one case, things are caused and the other case is not caused. The qualities, the marks of the situations are identical, except that one was caused and the other wasn't. So one has an invisible karmic cloud hanging over it, which will cause birth. The other one doesn't have a cloud hanging over it, which will cause birth. But phenomenologically speaking, they're the same. at the N-static tuition, you grow up the X-static, you grasp nirvana from anywhere. It's falling away into a sewer, you grab it. So I would say, although I'm not sure, that in the heavens, you will have no more dharmas than you have in the dharmas that lead to the

[26:58]

And I don't see much reason to have less, except that... Wait a second. You wouldn't have any more than the jhana, which you need to. And you would have less, which would be minus the things that produce it. And what are the things that produce it? Well, all the dharmas of the jhana produce it. And in particular, those aspects of the jhana which make it wholesome and really put the energy into making it a heaven state of the good ones, so the good ones will be gone. So you would expect then probably that it would be the jhana state minus at least the good ones. So that would mean that there's twelve or eleven Yeah, you take away the kushala maha-bhamibas.

[28:09]

So, I think that would be the maximum, except for that you might have some of these other ones that could or could not be in the other states. What? Well, like if you have 21... Let's say you had 21 dharmas in the... Let's say you had 22 dharmas in the rupadattu, first jhana, okay? And the heaven that that produces would have at least, you'd take away ten, so you'd have twenty, you'd have twelve. Right. And then the next layer, you drop Vichara, so you have then twenty-one. Take away the good, you'd have eleven. And next one, you take away Vichara, too. We're in the Rubadhatra. So then you take away your char or two and you have 20. Take away 10, you have 10. So probably you'd think, well, probably there's at least 10.

[29:14]

And you know that's probably true, right? So I would say the minimum is 10, which you already knew. Now, how many can you add in? Well, you can't add in the Mahabunikas or the Kushal or Akushal. You can't add in any of the Klesha Mahabunikas. And you can add in Vitarka and Vichara in the first level, maybe. As a matter of fact, I know you can, because you have story about them talking up there. But some of the other ones, we have to sort of study more whether some of these other ones which could be in the trance state, I mean, could be in the jhana projecting state, whether some of these other ones could also be in the neutral state. And in fact, probably they can be. If you read about the behavior of beings in these states, and behavior means the way they are, they don't do anything and they're actually in heaven.

[30:29]

They're not doing anything definite, but they can have various problems still. But they're weak. There's all neutral states that come with their weak. Whether they're Kama-Dotty, Luka-Dotty, or I-Luka-Dotty. So if we could conceive maybe that there's only 10, possibly could be only 10, and that there must be at least 10. It could get down pretty close to 10. Now, if somebody wants to say, well, I'm sure that one of those other dharmas is in there, please, go ahead, say so now. But I'm not myself, I don't clearly see that I know for sure some of those other dharmas are there. Does anybody see any of those dharmas that they're pretty sure would be there?

[31:21]

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