May I continue to bring up the flower adornment scripture? The great, extensive Buddha flower adornment scripture. We have now reached book 18. The title is Clarifying Dharma. Clarifying Bodhisattva Practice. I think it was a couple weeks ago we had an online offering sponsored by this temple and during that, in that assembly there was a number of mothers and one of the mothers brought her son to the meeting and introduced him.

[01:34]

His name was Sandro Kind of like Sandra, right? I can't see how long he stayed at the assembly. Anyway, afterwards, later that day, Sandro said to his mother, Soon you'll know why I laughed. Sandro said to his mother, what is Reb's job? Is it taking care of Buddha? And his mother said,

[02:36]

And then Sandro said to his mother, can that be my job too when I'm older? And his mother said, yes. And Sandro said, I want to take care of Buddha with you, mom. And his mom said, I want to take care of Buddha with you, Sandro. This is a modern example of book 18 of the Flower Adornment Scripture. That little boy was trying to clarify the Dharma. What's the job of a Buddhist teacher? And can I?

[03:41]

Can I have that job too? He's trying to clarify the situation. And he found out, yes, he can do the practice with his mom. So in the book called Clarifying Dharma, clarified teaching, there is a tete-tete. Do you know tete-tete? Tete-tete is French and it means head-to-head. Head-to-head. In this chapter, there is a head-to-head conversation. There's a face-to-face conversation.

[04:44]

There's an intimate conversation between two bodhisattvas. Two bodhisattvas who aspire to take care of Buddha. They want to help Buddha, help all beings. and they want to help each other. So, the Bodhisattva, whose name is Vigorous Wisdom, said to the Bodhisattva Dharma Wisdom, who we've been talking about for months, because he's the teacher, he's the teacher in previous chapters. 15, 16 and 17. Dharma wisdom has been invited to speak the Dharma empowered by awakening.

[05:48]

Now in chapter 18 vigorous wisdom is questioning him. Face to face. In the great assembly of this scripture, the Bodhisattva, Buddha's helper, vigorous wisdom, praises the Bodhisattvas, praises. Then he requests, he asks questions about the Bodhisattvas. He asks a question to the Bodhisattva, Dharma wisdom, about the Bodhisattva practice. Praise, question, and then request. He praises the bodhisattva practice, asks questions about it, and then asks Dharma wisdom to say a little bit about it.

[06:56]

This is kind of like, what do you call it, this conversation between these bodhisattvas is the container and structure like a womb in which the Dharma is clarified. So in this conversation we'll have this long process of clarifying many questions about Bodhisattva practice. Again, intimate conversation which is praising the practice, questioning the practice and requesting teaching. So now in this assembly we can set the table for this conversation. Conversation between

[08:10]

bodhisattvas about the Dharma of bodhisattva practice. I'm about to start directly bringing the sutra up, but before I do that, I just want to say It doesn't say this in the citra, but I'm saying that vigorous wisdom bodhisattva calls the bodhisattva dharma wisdom into question. This is a key thing in this conversation in which the dharma is clarified. The bodhisattvas call each other into question. It's part of intimacy.

[09:15]

We give ourselves as a questioner. We give ourselves as a listener. Clarifying the practice by being called into question so in the sutra it says the bodhisattva vigorous wisdom said to the bodhisattva dharma wisdom oh child of buddha oh child of buddha When bodhisattvas first arouse the mind that seeks for all knowledge, they fulfill infinite virtues and merits.

[10:31]

This is a statement which stands by itself in a sense. In other words, the vigorous wisdom saying, when a bodhisattva first arouses the mind of awakening, the mind which seeks Buddhahood for the welfare of the world, they fulfill infinite virtues and merit. The previous chapter is called the merit and virtue of this first arising of the mind. And in that big chapter, there's a great discussion of how amazingly wonderful the arising of this thought is. It's infinitely meritorious, this thought. Just like I told you about this boy, in a way, his mind, in his mind,

[11:44]

There arose the wish to practice helping the Buddhas, caring for the Buddhas in order to help this world. Vigorous wisdom is saying the virtue of Sandro's wish, of his wish to help the Buddhas is infinite, basically. So now he's saying to vigorous wisdom, now he's saying to Dharma wisdom who has just talked about for a big, big, big, big ocean of teachings about how great this mind is, then he says, oh, oh, not only do they fulfill all these virtues, they will certainly reach the ultimate point of unexcelled awakening. That's his statement and his praise.

[12:44]

And I abbreviated it. Then vigorous wisdom, Bodhisattva, says to Dharma wisdom the questions. Which also I will abbreviate because I want you to have a chance at absorbing what I say. So, he says to Dharma wisdom, Bodhisattva, how should Bodhisattvas practice the Buddha Dharma? How should Bodhisattvas practice Buddha's teaching? So as to cause all the Buddha's joy. So as to enter the abode of all Bodhisattvas. How should they practice so to attain purity of their great activity?

[13:49]

How should they practice to fulfill all great vows? And continue the lineage of the triple treasure, Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, unbroken. O child of Buddha, by what by what skillful means can the bodhisattvas cause the dharma to be fulfilled completely then he requests bigger wisdom requests oh child of Buddha please extend Your compassion, may I add, face to face. To explain these matters to us, everyone in the assembly wants to hear.

[14:53]

Another translation is, there's nobody in the assembly who doesn't want to hear. Furthermore, please explain in accordance with the practice of bodhisattvas how they are always diligently practicing. And again, abbreviating. How they are able to fulfill all the roots of goodness. how in order to ripen beings, they adapt to their mental and physical dispositions in selecting the Buddha lands for them. How can bodhisattvas adapt to the mental dispositions

[16:09]

and physical dispositions of people so that they can enter the Buddha lands how in all worlds will they receive reverence and offerings and receive Buddha's the consecration on the crown of their heads from all Buddhas and receive Buddhas fond respect for all of them how can they acquire the power of roots of goodness and When I read this, I thought, oh, this might be a source of our Soto Zen Bodhisattva precept ceremony.

[17:20]

Because in the traditional way of doing the ceremony, after the bodhisattvas have received the precepts, then the preceptor does a dedication. And in the dedication they say, Now, in Buddha lands in ten directions, those lands are shaking in six ways. And celestial flowers are falling. And mystical music is being heard. And in all those lands, in ten directions, the bodhisattvas in those lands ask their teacher, the Buddha, what's going on? Why is our land shaking? Why are these flowers falling? What's with this music?

[18:25]

What's happening, teacher? And the Buddha says, the way we do the ceremony here, the Buddha says, in the Saha world, which is a traditional name for the our world here, Saha means kind of a good place for patience. In the Saha world, bodhisattvas have just, I shouldn't say bodhisattvas, actually students, like Zen students, have heard these teachings about the precepts and requested them and received them from their teacher who received them from their teacher and so on. That's why our world is shaking with joy, because they've received these precepts. And then the bodhisattvas say, oh, well, in that case, we are their comrades.

[19:29]

We are their support. We support them to practice these precepts. Just like it says here, how the bodhisattvas receive the offerings and reverence of the bodhisattvas and also receive the anointment the anointment of wisdom water so during our ceremony we anoint the people with the wisdom water just like in the sutra how can that happen? that's the question please explain this process of receiving the bodhisattva teachings Can you hear a little bit more? Then vigorous wisdom bodhisattva, wanting to reiterate his intention, his request, spoke these verses.

[20:44]

And again, he starts with praise and then he asks questions and then he asks for teaching. So vigorous wisdom says to Dharma wisdom, O famous one, you've become famous in the last five chapters, O famous one, well do you expound, well did you expound and do you expound the merit and virtues accomplished by bodhisattvas? they're deeply entering the boundless great practices, and they're fulfilling a pure teacherless wisdom, fulfilling pure wisdom attained without a teacher, as reiterated in each of the ten abodes in chapter 15.

[21:48]

So, in chapter 15, Dharma Wisdom explained each of the ten abodes of bodhisattvas. At the end of describing each abode he says, and they're able to receive these teachings without relying on another. So here we have this big teaching and big teachers who are telling us that we can receive this teaching not depending on them. Kind of It's a big irony. Devoted to the teacher or not? Devoted to the teacher without depending on the teacher? How can that happen? This is one of the big questions. And then he's to the verses now. He continues his praise but now in verse.

[22:53]

If bodhisattvas, at their first inspiration, a first arising, accomplish the practice of virtue and wisdom and attain universal right bodhi, how should they, in the Buddhadharma, strengthen diligent cultivation to cause all the Buddhas to rejoice and to become bound to swiftly enter the ground where all Buddhas dwell. How can the Bodhisattvas attain the wondrous paths and expound the true treasury of Dharma? By the way, the Chinese characters for this are Shobo Zhou. So you've maybe heard of the Shobo Genzo.

[23:57]

This is Shobozo. It's true Dharma treasury without the I. So there's another story which is true Dharma I treasury, true Dharma I. This is just true Dharma treasury. Where's the I? Ball of the Buddha. How can they attain the wondrous past and expound the true Dharma treasury of the Tathagata? How are they always able to accept and receive the Buddha Dharma? Unsurpassable and incomparable. How can they be fearless like lions appear to be? I wrote in, appear to be.

[24:59]

Lions appear to be fearless, but they're not. They're scared, like us. How can we learn to be like they appear? So, please excuse me for adding, as they appear to be. Tigers are also scared. How can they be fearless like lions appear to be their pure and their acts? How can their acts be as pure as the moon? How can they cultivate Buddha virtues which they already possess? And there's two translations of the following line which I thought were auspicious.

[26:01]

The first is, how can they cultivate the Buddha's virtues like lotuses to which water does not adhere? And the other translation is, how can they cultivate the Buddha virtues like lotuses that do not adhere to their water? Did you get that? How can they practice like lotuses to which water does not adhere? And how can they practice like lotuses which don't adhere to the water? Both ways. How can they practice like that? So I was in Japan one time and I saw lotuses in the rain. that the rain was falling on the lotuses, on the lotus leaves.

[27:03]

And these particular lotus leaves I saw held the water for a while. They held it. And then they got tired. And they bent. And the water spilled off them onto the leaves below them. And those... Leaves also received the water and bent and poured it down. So the lotuses in the rain were going, receiving the water and dumping the water and coming back up, receiving the water, dumping it, and the ones below are receiving it and dumping it. They were dancing in the rain. They were holding the rain without adhering to it. How can they be like that? This is the way these lotus sutras are an example of how bodhisattvas practice. So I wrote here, this is the end of vigorous wisdom's calling dharma wisdom into question.

[28:21]

And so now, Dharma wisdom has been called and now Dharma wisdom responds. And how does he respond? He says, Very good, child of Buddha. you have asked about the pure practices cultivated by bodhisattvas out of compassion for the world because you wish that many may be aided and comforted that many may be benefited you have asked about the pure practices cultivated by bodhisattvas.

[29:39]

So I would comment that he's praising the bodhisattva for asking these questions. He's saying the reason you're doing it is to benefit the world. Brackets. You're not trying to get anything. You're able to ask this question because you're already enlightened. Thank you for asking it. Very good. And then Dharma Wisdom Bodhisattva says to Vigorous Wisdom Bodhisattva, Child of Buddha, You abide by the genuine Dharma. You practice great vigor. His name is Vigorous Bodhisattva. You practice great vigor, increasing without recession.

[30:55]

And having already attained liberation, you are able to pose these questions. just like the Buddha would pose the questions. So one bodhisattva, like the lotus leaf, one bodhisattva praises the other and asks the other questions and makes a request. And then the other one praises the question and responds to the request. And then Dharma Wisdom says, listen carefully. Think upon this explanation. Now, by spiritual powers of Buddha, I will explain a little bit about the Bodhisattva practice, how they can practice it vigorously.

[32:01]

So all those questions before will be dealt with in the chapter one by one. first thing that's being dealt with is how to be vigorous, how to be enthusiastic, how to be not negligent. Child of Buddha, once bodhisattvas have developed the determination for awakening, they should diligently guard themselves from indolence and laxity. child of Buddha, the bodhisattvas who have already aroused the resolve to attain all knowledge should energetically and diligently guard that resolve and not allow themselves to become negligent.

[33:08]

of the thought that I've been going on for a long time. So I want to just do the next section and see how that goes for you. Okay? Is it getting to be too much? Okay. So then Dharma Wisdom says if bodhisattvas abide by ten That is called non-indulgence. Child of Buddha, it is by abiding in ten dharmas that the bodhisattvas qualify as not allowing themselves to become negligent. I just wrote a little note next to it in red which says that is to say abiding in the middle way of not caring too much and not caring too little.

[34:38]

One form of laziness is to care too little. Is to make too little effort to practice. That's one kind of laziness. The other kind of laziness is to care too much, to overdo it, to try to get something. So he's basically asking, talking about how to not be negligent. And so now there's going to be ten topics to contemplate so that the bodhisattvas are not negligent. first one number one is they guard and uphold the precepts that's the first one now that actually the translation is they guard and uphold moral precepts another translation is they keep

[35:57]

the behavioral precepts. But I don't need those words moral and behavioral myself, but that's what it says in the sutra for your information. Now, here's my comment on the first of the ten things that bodhisattvas abide in so they're not negligent. In what? in bodhisattva practice. In other words, guarding and upholding the precepts is to practice being called into question face to face. being called into question face-to-face is caring for the precepts.

[37:02]

This is me talking. The sutra says the first thing they do to not be lazy is to take care of these precepts. I say what that means is to call and be called into question face-to-face. If I want to practice the precepts so that I'm not lazy in my practice of the bodhisattva way, I need to be called into question and I need to call others into question. This mutual calling into question is necessary in order to not be negligent. if you want to practice the bodhisattva way. So if you want to practice, then you need somebody to say, for example, may I ask a question? And then you might say, yes you may.

[38:09]

I understand that you questioning me is part of the practice of the precepts. And the person might say, that's exactly what I wanted to ask you about. I wanted to ask you if you think you're practicing the precepts. And you might be very respectful and welcoming of that question. I would say that's practicing the precepts. Somehow people are questioning you. Some people look like they do not want anybody to question them. And so people don't. They just leave them alone. Because this person does not want me to question what they're doing. When people are questioning it, it's partly because they think maybe that would be good. Maybe we would welcome it. So again, I might want to practice the Bodhisattva way and I might think I am practicing the Bodhisattva way.

[39:15]

I'm practicing not being lazy, for example. Not being negligent of what? Of the Bodhisattva way. that attitude is not the precepts. The precepts is not to walk around thinking you're practicing the precepts. The precepts is to be aware that you want to and be aware that you're being questioned by your mind and by others. I wonder if I'm practicing the precepts. Okay. I wonder if, one Zen teacher says, the longer you practice, the sneakier you get. So I'm practicing the Bodhisattva way and I'm finding ways to make myself think I am practicing the Bodhisattva way rather than questioning.

[40:20]

Am I? I want to, am I? And then sometimes people might, if you want to, some people might pick up that you, that you want to, and they might want to come over to you and say, you are. You're a success. You want to practice the Bodhisattva way and you are. That's okay that they talk to you like that. That's a nice gift, maybe. But the Bodhisattva questions that. Or a person could say, you're really practicing the bodhisattva way, and you say, oh, thank you. And then they might say, did you believe what I just said? Did you believe that? And you might say, I received your gift, but I did not believe it. I just thought, that's your opinion, that I'm practicing the way. I accept that that's your opinion.

[41:23]

Now, if you would tell me that I wasn't practicing, I would also... want to accept that opinion too. You're saying, because you're calling me into question. But even if you praise my practice, you're really calling me into question too. And so when I'm being praised, I wonder, am I worthy of this? Is that true? That's what they're saying. I can't help but tell you that... when I got ordained as a priest Suzuki Rishi said to me I'm sure you will not be arrogant about getting ordained and I'm kind of like I kind of thought is this his indirect way of saying he is concerned that I might be arrogant about getting ordained and I didn't forget I still remember that

[42:25]

statement and I'm still wondering about that and so maybe I would finally say oh now I see definitely I was arrogant all those years that's fine but that should be questioned too this mutual being called into question about the precepts is the is really what the precepts are. They're not, I'm doing good. I'm practicing the Bodhisattva way. It's I want to practice the Bodhisattva way. I want to benefit beings. It's not I am benefiting beings. You can think that, but that's just a thought. I'm not saying it's wrong for you to think, I was just helpful. I was helpful. I helped those people. That's okay. That's not practicing the precepts though. Precepts is, I wonder if that was helpful.

[43:25]

And not just me wondering, but you wondering about me and yourself. And we're helping each other. And this is bodhisattva practice of the precepts. That's number one. And I think that's enough for you. That's number one of ten things And what are those ten things for? To guard against laxity and negligence. This mutual questioning supports us not being negligent in our practice. And there's nine more, and maybe we'll get to them someday, but I think you've been patient and pretty much awake. and I talk longer than usual to introduce this chapter called Clarifying Dharma so the first part is like how to rouse ourselves and not you know not to care a lot but not too much of course if you care a lot you don't care too little

[44:51]

Yes. That that is lazy because it's not imaginative. Well, it's lazy. I think. Too much means you did too much. And you do too much because you're trying to prove you're right. For example, if you're doing calligraphy and you're doing pretty well, you might want to just continue. But if you do, you start making mistakes. At a certain point, you've done enough. And you just want to continue because you're so great. Want to do some more great calligraphy?

[45:55]

But you actually should stop. You've done enough. You should try another, something else. So it's basically, you know, indolence can also, inertia. Inertia and indolence are related. So to do good and then to keep doing it by inertia is lazy. Not to notice, oh, I'm continuing, but actually it's time to stop. We paint ourselves into a corner. You've heard that expression? When we paint too long, and we paint the whole floor, that's when we can't get out. So overwork is a kind of laziness and inattentiveness, and there's various motivations like inertia and fear that make us work too hard. That's why we need to be called into question. So I do see quite a few people who work really hard, and I gently ask them, you know, if maybe they've done enough, or if what their practice is.

[47:00]

You've built these temples, you know, like Bodhidharma, when he went to China, he met the emperor who built all these temples, and the emperor says, well, what's the merit of me building all these temples? And Bodhidharam says, no merit. Now, we can go into what he meant by that, but he said, you overdid it. You know, you weren't practicing. You were trying to get the temple built rather than practicing while you're building the temple. You can build temples without practicing. And you can also practice without building temples. But you can also build temples and not be practicing. Be trying to get something. Yes? Yeah, that's another way to put it.

[48:04]

You're doing good by habit rather than by continually doing it because you want to. So a lot of people are doing good and then they tell me they're doing that because they're supposed to. And I say, oh, who said you're supposed to? It turns out they're the one that's saying it. But some people have other people telling them what they're supposed to do. This is about what you want to do. And you can do something good for a while and then after a while it's time to stop before it becomes habitual. Oh, I'm just doing this by habit. Wow, I should take a break here and reconsider what I'm doing. Rediscover, and that's what's coming up in these things, is to look at how to arouse the energy. You have to go back to your aspirations. So I'm doing some good because I wanted to do good, and then after a while I'm doing good because I should be doing good.

[49:05]

I lost track of my original aspiration. I think all of us started practicing meditation as amateurs. We didn't start as professionals. But if you keep doing it for a while, you lose track of your original amateur. Amateur means love. I'm doing it because I love it. And if you do something you love for a long time, after a while It shifts from love it to I own it, or it's mine, or I have to, or I should. But you didn't start by thinking I should. You start by thinking, I think it's cool, I love it. But you have to watch out because if you're lazy, you lose track of when you lose your heart and you slip into doing it by habit or by obligation.

[50:09]

or by, you know, duty, rather than, I want to do this thing. It's my duty to want to. And I run it, in my experience, in Zen context, I usually run to people who are overdoing it. Not so often under. But there's a few of those too. And that looks like lazy. Like they won't get out of bed to come to meditation. That looks like lazy. And it is. But it is because they want to go and they're not doing what they want to do. They're not really resting for the sake of the practice. And one other story I've told quite a few times is it was in a Tibetan monastery. And one of the senior monks was in charge of training the new monks.

[51:17]

And the teacher, the main teacher of the monastery, went to that senior monk and said, when I see you helping these people and teaching them how to do the rituals, I'm just so touched, it's so beautiful what you do for them. Thank you so much. And by the way, it would be nice if you did something spiritual. and then another occasion he said when I see you teaching the monks meditation it's just so inspiring so lovely it's just great thank you so much and it would be nice if you did something spiritual and I don't know how many times he said to that before the monk said what do you mean something spiritual and the teacher said stop trying to get something out of life It's lazy to do practices to try to get something. That's lazy. Because that's just the inertia of our basic human thing to try to get something.

[52:22]

Yeah. So this is a very important topic. So I appreciate you calling me into question. Yes? I think this is a really... Yeah. How do you try to reconcile? Well, you don't. You don't. I don't reconcile? You don't reconcile. Whatever we say, how do you? You don't do it. You do it with me. How do we reconcile something like Tangario? You know, like, like, and Tangario is typically top as monks, right? Yeah. So I'm, right now, you don't reconcile it, I don't reconcile it, so we don't reconcile it. Can we try? We can try, but I recommend that you don't try. Really? I don't think you should reconcile it. How do I practice with that question?

[53:27]

I would say, you brought it up, you gave it to me, and I said to you, forget about reconciling it, let's talk about whether you want to. Is reconciling trying to get something? I think reconciling is trying to get approval of the activity by reconciling it with something. Like reconciling the accounts, making them right. So do you want to do it or do you want to prove you're doing it right? Well, I aspire to do something like Tom Mario or Sashim. But I'm just... And I feel like I have the enthusiasm, but not the stamina, or not the ability to deal with the intensity. But I would like to do some measure of it. You'd like to do some measure of it? So I think what you're talking about, though, here's this big thing, and you feel like it's maybe too much for you?

[54:30]

How do you reconcile the big thing? How do you reconcile several days of sitting all day, which is the Tongario initiation? How do you reconcile? Reconcile means how do you make that right with these people's bodies who are in pain? How do you make that right for these people who are having such a hard time going through this training? And I would say, I'm not going to reconcile that. I'm going to say, here's the form. Do you want to do it? And if not, let's not. And if some people think it's too much sitting and there should be less, okay. That's a little bit like calling the initiation into question. I think that all the Zen practices should be called into question. And there's a lot of people who don't agree with me. but I'm saying all of them.

[55:34]

The precepts are to be called into question. The people who are trying to practice the precepts should be called into question about how they're trying. But he's saying he's having trouble reconciling this very rigorous exercise program with his body, which had a hard time, which has a hard time doing lots of sitting. It's very painful for you. So how do you reconcile it? I would say question it. And you are questioning it right now. And you have been for quite a few years questioning how this body can do this practice which is painful for this body. You've been questioning that. But that's not reconciliation. Maybe it is reconciliation.

[56:37]

Because this conflict you have between this form and your body, they can be reconciled by questioning your body and the form. So don't just question your form, question your body. My body says, you can't do this. I would question it. Like when I first started sitting full lotus, my body said no no no no no no no thank you do not do this that's not gonna work you can't put your leg you can't put your foot up there it's not gonna go that's my body said and then my mind said well there's this form the full lotus form so what I did is I had a dialogue between the form and my body I didn't force my body into that form.

[57:39]

But I moved my body towards the form and I had a little dialogue there where my body said, no more. And I kind of said, okay. Okay, no more. And then I said, can we come back later and check it out again? And the body said, Okay. And then I came back again. The body said, no, no, no, no. Okay. See you later. Okay. And I came back again. And then the body said, okay, you can do it. You can do what I told you you couldn't do before. And I did not force myself. I did not force myself into that posture. But I did sit in that posture. and that posture, previously that posture was not, my body would not allow me to. And then by being kind to my body and in a dialogue between the form and my body, I found this nice cross-legged posture.

[58:54]

But it was like calling into question. It isn't just the body calling the form into question. That was part of it. That's part of it. That was part of it. No, no, no, no, it was part of it. I question that this is beneficial. But the other side is, are you sure? Could we reconsider this? Maybe take a little break and try it again? This is the practicing the precepts. This is not caring too much or too little. Like I don't care so much about the forms that I force my body into the forms. I don't care too much. You have to get into the full lotus form. That's some people, boy, they practice it. And a lot of those people who practice that way have quit. They're my friends. They quit. But I didn't quit because I didn't force myself.

[59:58]

I didn't do the form unquestioningly. But also, I tried. I tried. How many times did I try? How many thousands of thousands of times did I try? Thousands and thousands of times I tried. And then one day, as some of you know, I fell off a bicycle onto cement. And the femur got broken and then things changed. Then what used to be possible, even with dialogue, it was not possible anymore. So here I am with you sitting cross-legged but not like I did when I was under 58. So I could sit full lotus until I was 58 but then with these broken bones I couldn't even sit cross-legged.

[61:03]

But then I had another dialogue with the new body which couldn't sit cross-legged at all. We dialogued about that and after a while I could sit cross-legged but not full lotus. Thank you for your question. Thank you for calling the initiation process into question. But the ancestors have learned how to do that. not forcing themselves, not caring too much, and they didn't care too little either. So again, there used to be this thing called care-bearers, remember them? And care-bearers have a heavenly realm. And the name of the realm, their heaven, is called Keralat. They're care-bearers.

[62:07]

Bodhisattvas are care-bearers. And their heaven, for them, their heaven is that they care a lot. That's the best. And I say, they care a lot, but they don't care too much. They care a lot. Bodhisattvas care a lot, but not too much. And of course, not too little. But actually, in practice, sometimes you care a little too little. Sometimes you care a little too much. That's why we need somebody to say, could I ask you a question? And you say, yeah, I guess so, because I heard that bodhisattva precepts are about being called into questions. So I guess you can ask me a question, although I'd rather not. But go ahead. Do you think it's possible that you care too much? Thank you. I think maybe you're right. Maybe I do care too much. Do you think it's possible that you care too little? Yeah, maybe so.

[63:11]

Anyway, I'm not sure, but thanks for asking. Thank you for asking me if I care too much about Zen or this temple or these people. Thanks for asking. Did you have your hand raised? I think you're next. Yes, Catherine. when you were talking about caring too much in Hulu and the story you gave I was struck by the image of the lotus that you first gave us that fills until it can hold over and it shifts yeah they care a lot but not too much they don't care too much so we use the lotuses are a good example of how to practice not so much oak trees not too much oak trees they care a lot too but they care too much and then they break but bamboo and lotuses they care a lot too but they're also flexible they receive the water and bamboo also as you know they actually receive snow and the snow as they receive it they bend down like the lotus leaf they bend down and then the snow slides off

[64:39]

because they bend way down and then they snap back and they're fresh and buoyant and ready to go because they carried a lot but not too much. And so at Tatsahara we sometimes have snow down there and bamboo demonstrates this so nicely in the snow, bending over in the snow and the the oak trees break. They just hold it and hold it and hold it until they break. And also I used to sometimes care too much, occasionally. Not all the time, fortunately, but occasionally I would care too much and I would try to, when I had a lot of people to see, I would sit in full lotus and see people for hours and hours. I got into the momentum of sitting in full lotus.

[65:42]

I cared too much. And the pain accumulated after the hours went up. And then I noticed that I was starting to get impatient with people because I was forcing myself to continue to sit. I was getting impatient with them coming. You have said enough, you can go now. I don't know if I ever said that, but I was definitely... So I stopped pushing myself so hard and then I started being nicer to people. But I still care a little. I still make some effort. But I don't punish people because I'm trying too hard. Also, you can also punish people because you don't try hard enough. So I see Homa and Linda and Kurt. which is nonviolence.

[66:59]

Yeah, another word for it, nonviolence. Nonviolence with the precepts. Good. So now that she told me your question, I can ask you about that too.

[68:31]

Let's question about that. Thank you. Catherine, did you have your hand raised? No, okay. Linda. I have two questions. First one is, lazy is a pejorative word in English. Negligence is too. What? Negligence is also. Negligence is also, and indolence also. And non-diligence? Et cetera. Et cetera, there's quite a few. So I wonder, is there a danger of, well, how do you differentiate between... Yes, there's danger with all those words. How do you differentiate between calling into question and criticizing? Okay, so somebody tells me that they want to go north, and they tell me, I want to go north, and if you see me going some other direction, would you check up on me?

[69:42]

And then I see them going what I think is south, so I might say, can I ask a question? Did you tell me that you wanted to go north? And they say, yeah. I say, do you think you're going north? And they might say, oh, yeah, oh, no, I'm not, thank you. And I didn't feel like, I was just questioning them, just checking up on their aspiration to go north. So I, and another thing that helps me is, when it comes to practicing the Bodhisattva precepts, I hear people say they want to practice them, but I don't expect that they will. So if they don't look at their practicing them, I do not feel critical of them. I'm just more like curious. Because I didn't think that they were actually going to do these wonderful things. Still, they said they wanted to, so since they said they wanted to, I can be curious and following through on them asking me to call them into question without being critical.

[70:45]

But if I think they're going to do it, then I think I'm falling into being critical if I think they're actually going to be this bodhisattva that they want to be. But I don't do that. So I'm not really critical of people too much. Maybe lazy isn't helpful. But I feel the way you're calling into question is very gentle and nonviolent. So I thought I would mention the tone of laziness. Yeah, I brought in lazy. So I'm happy that I brought it in. But the sutras is laxity. But it's related. My second question, which is short. Okay. Lions and tigers are scared. Are you scared? Yeah. I said that. Didn't you hear me say that? You didn't hear me say that? We're scared too? Oh, I said we're scared. I meant to include me and we are. Everybody's scared. Fearless does not mean there's no fear.

[71:51]

It means you question it. it means you welcome it. So the fearless people welcome the fear. Like lions appear to be. But really they're just, they're scared and they're trying to get those other lions to back off. And gorillas too. Get the other gorillas to go away. Because they're scared. Gorillas are scared. And then Again, if we don't welcome our fear, then we are at risk of being violent. And Kurt, was it Kurt? I had a question about the question. So you're questioning maybe I'm doing too much and that may be so, or maybe I'm doing too little and you're thinking, well, that may be so.

[72:53]

And so... The question is, is the question ever answered about whether it's too much or too little? Or is it more kind of like, don't know why? Before we get into don't know mind, I would say it's not about getting an answer to the question. It's a vigilance. It's an inquiry. It's ongoing questioning. Not to get answers. The questioning keeps us on course. But it doesn't mean, I shouldn't say, the questioning is on course, but we get off course. And the questioning helps us not go too far off course. But to come to the conclusion, I did the right amount, and to actually believe that, you can think that, oh, I did the right amount. And somebody can say, oh, Kurt, you did the right amount. Okay, so I think so, they think so, I wonder what's really going on. Yeah.

[74:00]

Proceed questioningly. Yeah. And humans want to come to a conclusion. They want to get an answer. It's part of our craving to get an answer. Yeah. Yeah. And nice thing about modern understanding of science is science isn't trying to get answers. It looks like it is, but as soon as they get what might look like an answer, they just keep questioning. Catherine? I would say Buddha is deeply impacted by the fears of all beings. It doesn't fear for itself? Correct, because the Buddha doesn't have one. But even though the Buddha doesn't have a self, and they're not afraid for their self, and they're not afraid for other people, they feel everybody's fear.

[75:05]

and they care about it the right amount they deeply care about people's fear and they respect people's fear and they welcome people's fear they don't like or dislike all the suffering, frightened people they love them and when it comes to fear they're courageous they're up for it and they teach other people how to be up and welcoming of the fear. And also not just welcoming it, but after you welcome it, after you welcome the fear, then question it. What is this fear? What's this fear about? Yes? I have to confess that I hear them being very playful in chapter 18. That's part of it. That's an essential part of that. I agree. It's part of it. They're being rascals. Well, being rascals, but rascals in a way that I question whether they're rascals.

[76:14]

They're not stuck in the rascal and they're not avoiding being rascals. They are caring for all rascals and non-rascals. So this community, this assembly, could have some rascals and if... It could also have some people who are not rascals. They're all welcome here. And they're all calling. Well, thank you very much. I'm amazed how much we covered in the mere hour and a half. Thank you so much.

[77:00]

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