This morning I'd like to relate the practice of the three pure precepts to the realization of nirvana, or discuss the third noble truth in relationship to the three pure precepts. This would also be to discuss nirvana in relationship to the three bodies of Buddha. Now, one

[01:12]

definition of nirvana is, well, a translation of the word nirvana could be cessation, nirvana is related to the word nirodha, which means extinction, but a kind of definition or explanation of nirvana is that nirvana is the end of the outflows. Asava, asavakaya, asavakaya, the waning or the end of the outflows, nirvana, nirvana

[02:28]

outflows, equals the big N. But also you'd say that nirvana equals tanha kahaya, kahaya, the waning or the end of craving, this is Pali, tanha is craving or thirst, but Sanskrit is trishna, okay, so end outflows, nirvana, end outflows, end craving, nirvana, okay? Now, in Soto Zen practice, we have certain forms which have been transmitted to us in

[03:37]

ceremonies and so the first pure precept is to receive these forms, actually that's not the first precept, if you receive that precept, if you receive the pure precepts, in particular if you receive the first pure precept, you receive these forms, these regulations, and these ceremonies. And as I mentioned, if you're not in a monastery then you need to kind of figure out what are the forms that you're receiving, that you're working with, you're working with some forms, what are they? So outside the traditional practice context, you need to find some way to set up standards for your practice, but not on your own. So in monastery, of course, unless you're really confused, you know that you don't set these

[04:42]

standards up on your own, but outside some people think that they set up the standards for practice on their own, but that won't work, that won't work fully, it'll work a little bit, but you really have to do it in conjunction with others. So then you receive these forms and then the question is how do you practice uprightly with these forms, how do you practice in a monastery, how do you practice with the schedule, with the postural forms, with the rhythm forms, with the shape of body, speech, and thought, how do you work with those forms in a way that's upright, in other words, in a way that doesn't have outflows, in a way that you're not practicing these forms under the auspices of your dispositions and habits. And that's the reason why these forms should not be set up by an individual alone, because

[05:48]

if you practice these in a way that has outflows, you wouldn't necessarily notice it because it would probably feel quite normal to you, because the outflows you'll use will be your own personal outflows, your own dispositions will come into play when you practice these forms. Right? So like when I used to practice tea ceremony, myself being, I don't know what I was doing, but one of my tea ceremony pals who was a pianist before he came to Zen Center, so when he went up to pick up the tea equipment, he went ... He was very good, but he had this pianist attack upon the tea equipment, and this other woman that practiced with us, she was a ballet dancer before she practiced tea, so you could see a ballet dancer coming in the room and doing tea, it's ballet tea, and then there's kind of people who are habitually clumsy,

[06:53]

so they have clumsy tea, and in that way you see, oh, you know, they're just clumsy, but no, that's their style that they're holding on to, they don't suddenly drop their clumsiness when they come to the tea room and just do the tea, they drag their clumsiness and their awkwardness, or their football player or housewife or businessman or whatever, they bring it into the room, and it shows up because tea is just tea, it's not football, piano player, ballet dancer tea, it's just tea. And one time I saw one of the most developed tea teachers came to America, and although he wasn't the head of the school, he was in some ways, he wasn't like a political tea person, he was just pure tea, and when he did tea, he was mostly teaching, but at the end of the teaching session he did tea himself, and he did the simplest tea, the basic tea ceremony,

[07:55]

and he did look pretty good, actually, when he did it, but it wasn't like startlingly, it wasn't spectacular at all or anything, it was just tea. And afterwards Nakamura Sensei, our Green Gulch tea teacher, said that about him, she said when he did it, it was just tea, there was no person there, there was no style, it was just tea. Now there's not a fixed thing that's called tea, but there is a tea that's performed where there's just tea, and everybody can do tea that way, and the same way, to sit upright in the zendo, to bow in the zendo, to enter the zendo, to leave the zendo, to chant in the zendo, to walk around Tassajara, to greet each other, all these forms can be done, so they're just a form, there's no personal style there. Each person does it differently, but each person can do it differently even though they drop their personal style. Still we'd be unique, but you can be unique holding on to your style and you can be unique

[09:04]

having released and abandoned your style. That simplicity is nirvana. Then there's no craving. You just let the form be the form. You don't add a person to the form. Do you have to know the form first before you can drive it? Probably, because if you haven't learned it yet, you don't know how to apply your outflows to it, so first you usually have to learn it enough so that you can bring your dispositions and squash them on top of it. And then as you see your dispositions in the situation, the forms are a way for you to surface your dispositions. People walking down the road in the city, you can't necessarily see what their dispositions are, but when they learn a particular form, then their dispositions show up. Before they learn the form, they don't show up, but once they learn it fairly well, the dispositions show up, so the forms and the ceremonies give an opportunity for your habits

[10:12]

to stand up, because you know the form is basically fairly clear, and then you watch what's this other thing there? Where did that come from? Some people may think, oh, I'm just doing the form, but then someone else may say, did you notice on top of the form that there's this other thing going on? You know, these little things happen in addition to the form, and you wonder what they are. You don't know for sure, but you wonder, and if you don't wonder, some of your friends may wonder about you, and then they may ask you, and if they ask in a very kind, respectful way, you might consider what they're talking about. Like one of the, it was a server one, a friend of John's, one of the server ones who came

[11:13]

to serve me, and I'm not looking to kind of catch you guys or anything, but you know, just in the process of reaching down to see my bowls, I do see your feet, and I can see, of course, I can see everything about you and your feet. So anyway, this particular person came up to me, and he served, you know, many times, and every time he served, he had one foot straight and one foot turned. The left foot was straight and the right foot was turned out, and he always did it that way. Now, I think, now, if somebody's not paying attention, their feet might be straight, or they might be, you know, flared out, or sometimes it'd be straight and sometimes flared out, or sometimes turned in, or sometimes the right one turned out, or sometimes the left one. It seems like if you're not paying attention, just by not paying attention, it just might be random, right? But to always be the same way in an unusual way, that seems like kind of interesting to

[12:14]

know, how did that happen? So, I asked him, I said, do you mean to do it that way? And he said, what do you care for? Something like that, and I said, I was just wondering, it was kind of unusual the way it happens that way every time, you know, and I just, you know, I wondered if he did it on purpose, or was it just by coincidence that it happened that way every time in this unusual fashion? And he said, huh. And so then, the next time he served, both feet were straight, and they were straight from then on. I don't know what happened, but this kind of thing, you notice, you know, when there's a form, and there's an opportunity to practice together, you notice these things. Well, that made a big impression. He told me that story at least twice. How did he feel about it? He just thought about it a lot. Yeah. So, when you practice these forms in this balanced way, or when you search for this

[13:32]

balanced way through trial and error, through finding your biases over and over again, and having your biases not necessarily pointed out to you, but when you're questioned about how come you do it that way, then you start to notice, oh, that's interesting, I do that, huh? And then you think about it and reflect on it, and somehow, it isn't so much that you come in line with the form necessarily, but that you find a drop, you drop these cravings, you drop the cravings around the forms, and you attain nirvana, you become released from your personal style of practice, which means that you can become released from your personal style, which is released from your person. In this state of being released from outflows, you see directly, you can now see directly,

[14:38]

because not only is your way of practicing these forms free of craving, but your vision is free of craving, so since you're free of craving you no longer have to make the world into something that you can crave, that you can grasp, that you can manipulate, so then you can see, like the Buddha, you can see directly, you're provided with knowledge, so you can see in the Buddhist words, you know, such and such is suffering, such and such is the arising of suffering, such and such is the cessation of suffering, such and such is the path leading to the cessation of suffering, idam dukkham, idam dukkham samudayo, idam dukkha nirodo, idam dukkham nirodo, gamini patipat, see these things just like Buddha, when you

[15:40]

do these practices without, free of craving and free of outflows. So practicing the first pure precept, practicing the forms and rituals uprightly, you'll start to see your outflows, you'll start to see your craving around the forms, then to sit uprightly with the vision of your cravings, of your dispositions, of your biases, these biases, these cravings, these outflows will lose their power, in a sense they back off they're basically the end in a way. You still have the ability to create them, but by keeping

[16:47]

them in awareness, they lose their power to confuse you. So you see things, what is it, yatabhutam, you see things as they have come to be, in other words, you see things in their dependent co-arising, and then when you see things in their dependent co-arising, you see that things aren't things, and you see that you make the world into things because of your outflows, because of your biases, and the way you make things into things is a reflection of your dispositions. Everybody makes the world into somewhat different things according to your self-interest. When you become free of the outflows of that self-interest, you stop messing with things and they stop becoming things, they just show how they're coming to be. So then ignorance, again in the words of Buddha, ignorance is banished and true understanding arises, darkness is banished and the light arises. And he says, as happens, and I would

[17:59]

say spontaneously, to one who abides diligent, ardent and resolute, in other words, to one who abides uprightly, and to one who abides uprightly, your awareness becomes purified, bright, unblemished, malleable, wieldy, steady and imperturbable. And then again, you can become free of the outflows and see directly, such and such is suffering, such and such is suffering, such and such is the origin of suffering, this is the cessation of suffering, this is the path leading to the cessation of suffering. When the Buddha had this vision, he experienced coincidentally, not only liberation,

[19:08]

but there turned out to be some side-effects. He seemed to have been mostly interested in becoming free of suffering, but there were side-effects from becoming free of suffering that he experienced too. Sometimes people say, how many flavors does Dharma come in? And one answer is, it comes in one flavor. What is the flavor of Dharma, of the truth, of the Buddha way? The flavor is liberation. And then, well, what does liberation taste like? And liberation is sweet, it turns out. So he experienced a side-effect of this liberation,

[20:17]

namely, it was very sweet, and he sat after liberation, he sat absorbed for a while, he became absorbed in the sweetness of liberation for a while, I think a week. So I think this is called, what is it called, the Moksha Sukha Samadhi, the absorption in bliss or sweetness of liberation. And then, sitting there, wallowing in this bliss of liberation for a while, then he kind of reviewed, at a certain point he reviewed what had happened,

[21:26]

how the liberation had arisen. So he spent a few more weeks, you know, reviewing this aspect of the process of liberation and that aspect of liberation. So, all together he did seven sort of sessions after his release, he did seven-week sessions with, I guess, each week they're having a special topic of meditation, the first week being bliss and so on. And then, somehow people discovered him, actually God, I guess, discovered him first and said, what's up? And he said, forget it, I never would have understood this before, this happened, you won't either. But they begged him to tell about it, and so he tried and he told them. And some bodhisattvas who were in the area at the time that he talked understood what he was saying, and some of the gods might have, I'm not sure, but he sensed anyway that, I think, that only the fairly developed bodhisattvas kind of like understood what he was

[22:31]

talking about, so he thought this is probably not the way to do it, the way to teach. So when he actually ran into some people he taught Four Noble Truths and they got it. Actually, one lay person was the first to get it, I believe, but gradually his old friends who became monks, they understood this Four Noble Truths and they attained freedom also. I don't know if they did the, you know, seven weeks Sashin afterwards or not, but anyway, they became free too. So, practice with the forms, finally in such a way that you're just ardent, upright, resolute, and diligent. Mind becomes clarified in that process, seeing the outflows clearly. You might be able to see the outflows before you're really balanced,

[23:32]

right? Part of becoming resolute, ardent, diligent, unblemished, malleable, imperturbable, part of that is actually starting to see these cravings and then continuing to practice in the midst of that awareness. So, it wouldn't necessarily be the first site of the cravings that you would become free of them, but gradually you attain the proper samadhi, you attain the proper posture and awareness in the midst of these and see them for what they are become released. That's the first pure precept of embracing and sustaining upright conduct or forms and ceremonies. Then, spontaneously, you're released. Spontaneously, you see. And also spontaneously, you enter into the second pure precept, which is embracing and sustaining

[24:39]

all good. In this context, this context of the buddhist practice, embracing and sustaining all good means you now are able to now your samadhi, which was, or your awareness, which was trying to be balanced and upright in the midst of defilements, the defilements have been seen through. So, now you're free. So, now your samadhi is in the middle of release. Your samadhi is in the middle of happiness. So, you continue the samadhi, you continue the the practice, but now you're dealing with different stuff. You're dealing with happiness in the particular type of happiness that you're, you're dealing with various kinds of happiness, but the main one you're dealing with is this happiness of release. So, embracing it, the second precept at the level of of buddha means to embrace and sustain the bliss of freedom, which is the...

[25:49]

So, then from this state, naturally, beings come to you, beings appear to you, and you naturally embrace and sustain them. You naturally respond to them out of this joy, out of this relaxed presence in the middle of release. You're released from your suffering, but you're also released from any... you're released from limitations in terms of responding to beings. So, you can, for example, you can say, how you doing? How come your feet are pointing in different directions? Would you like me to help you skip zazen this afternoon? You know, whatever might be... whatever is appropriate, you're there to respond in that way, from your happiness and your freedom. Again, as Buddha did.

[26:55]

So, Nalst and these three pure precepts, as I mentioned before, are inseparable. When you realize the first pure precept, spontaneously you realize the second and third. If you don't realize the first precept, you don't realize the second and third. And if you haven't yet properly embraced the ceremonies, the forms that you didn't set up on your own, the standards of practice, if you haven't yet embraced and sustained them in this unselfish upright way, then you don't get released and you don't enter into the embracing and sustaining all good. And also, you can't embrace and sustain all beings yet. Similarly, but if you do realize the first precept, you naturally realize the second

[28:05]

precept and then you naturally realize the third precept. You can practice embracing and sustaining all beings because you're nurtured and you're fueled by the happiness of release. So, the fourth scripture in the middle-length sayings is called Fear and Dread Scripture. Bhaya Bhairava Sutra. I like the sutra because it's got one of the few sutras where an Italian comes and talks to Buddha. His name is Senor Iannisone. And so he comes to the Buddha and he

[29:09]

says, do the people who are studying with you basically use you as kind of like a role model, as an example? And he said, yeah, they do. He said, well, you go out in the forest and sit, you know, but isn't that kind of traumatizing to be out in the jungle with all those scary animals and demons and stuff? And won't the people who copy you kind of like be post-traumatic stress syndrome or something? He said, yeah, they will probably. I did too actually. But then after I, you know, became free of outflows, that stuff didn't scare me anymore. I mean, these things did appear, you know, these demons and snakes and poisonous insects and, I don't know, whatever, dragons and tigers did come and I did experience a little, you know, animal fright.

[30:12]

But whenever fear came, I just like, if I was sitting, I would just like, just keep sitting. I wouldn't like get into like walking or running or lying down or curling up in a ball or standing up. I would just sit there. If I was sitting, that would be, that was my way. And if I was walking, you know, and this stuff, this fear and dread came to me, I would just keep walking. And if I was standing, I would just keep standing. I wouldn't get into sitting or lying down or walking. And if I was lying down, I would just keep lying down. And can you picture Buddha there, kind of like just taking a little nap there in the forest and demons come up to him and start climbing all over him and he just keeps lying there. In other words, he didn't move, he just stayed present. Of course, feelings came up but he just let them buzz around him. And he was ardent about this, you know, he was ardent about just staying present with where he was and not getting, not going into reaction in response to all the things

[31:17]

that can appear to one out in the jungle of India. And as a result of this staying present and not going into, you know, reaction about this in terms of these cravings, his mind became clear, unblemished, imperturbable. And then he saw, you know, the Four Noble Truths. And then he wasn't scared out in the jungle anymore. Or even if he was scared, again, he just, this fear and stuff was struck aside instantly by his meditation. And he was fine. So, anyway, it's a nice sutra, you might want to check it out, it's not very long. You could even memorize it. What's the name of the sutra? Number Four. Fear and Dread. Fear and Dread. Number Four.

[32:23]

So, but the part I wanted to bring up actually was the end where Buddha says, after everything's been worked out so nicely in terms of his practice, and he says, he realized the Four Noble Truths and everything, he said, now, Senor Yanisoli, you might think that since I'm still out here, since I still go out in the forest to meditate, maybe I haven't really attained, you know, liberation, because what am I still, you know, going out there to test myself for? What am I still doing this meditation practice if I'm, like, free and happy? He said, well, I do it for two reasons. One reason is, you know, it's actually quite very pleasant to go out there and sit there in the middle of in the middle of it all. I like it. And the other reason I do it is for the sake of future generations. In other words, to teach. In other words, to show, here's a form, you guys. See the

[33:29]

form? Here I am, sitting here in the jungle, or sitting here in the zendo. I'm sitting here. I like it, but I like some other things too. But I wanted to show you, among the things I like to do, which are like everything, I'm showing you one way, or 46 ways, that are traditional, you know, that I'm showing you a way you can try. And if you try this way, then you can notice, now here I'm sitting. Am I sitting just like the Buddha? I noticed the Buddha wasn't leaning to the right or the left, or forward or backward. And I noticed the Buddha didn't, like, jump up and squash insects when they bit him, and stuff like that. I noticed the Buddha didn't, like, change his posture when those big demons came. I noticed the Buddha, like, didn't change his posture when the tigers came. So, yeah, so that's the model. And then, so I think I'm doing, yeah, I think I'm kind of sitting just like the Buddha, or I'm standing just like the Buddha. And I think, oh, I think, wow, and oh, here comes some outflows, wow. Here comes some craving

[34:32]

right here while I'm just, but that happened to Buddha too, right? So what did Buddha do? Oh, he just kept doing that. Yeah, he kept being present, watched those outflows, watched those cravings, here they come, just like with the Buddha. Hey, it's just like the Buddha, just like the Buddha story. It's happening right here. And the Buddha just watched it, and then when he saw clearly what they were, he saw how they have come to be, and when he saw how the cravings had come to be, he was released from the cravings and could see clearly. And, hey, I'm seeing the Four Noble Truths too, just like, wow, hey, it's working. And no one would understand this, so I won't tell anybody, just like the Buddha didn't. But, again, this might be a dream, so it's good to practice in a group. Dogen Zenji said, good to practice in a group. Don't do this on your own, because you might go into a dream that this is all happening. You might go into a dream that, hey, the outflows

[35:33]

have appeared and now they've gone away, I'm totally happy, everything I do helps people, I'm just like the Buddha. It might be a dream. But if you're practicing in a group and you've had that feeling, you don't have to go tell people, it's all right, you don't have to say, hey, guess what happened? Just keep practicing, just like the Buddha, just keep, after this happens, just keep doing the forums. And if people need to find out, they will. In the meantime, they may ask you to do various things that don't reflect that they understand what's happened to you. Because, of course, they should be now not asking you to serve anymore, or be Jikido. And if you decide, like for example, let's say you're lying in your bed and demons come, if you decide to stay lying in your bed, just like the Buddha, they'll just, you know, they'll come outside your cabin and offer incense, they won't come and bother you. What's happening in there, Buddha?

[36:34]

Is that what the Tenkins say, what's happening, Buddha? And if you don't answer, you know, and just say, meditate on that, you'll understand eventually. And then the Ino comes, they say, meditate on that, you know, and then various Tanto come and so on. So, you know, maybe other people don't understand, so you dialogue with them, and then pretty soon you find out, oh, there comes those outflows again, I guess they aren't all gone, and so on. On the other hand, you might, everyone may verify it and agree, yes, you have ended all outflows, this is wonderful, thank you, congratulations, we're very happy, and that's it. Let's go on to practice now. Wait, don't you want to say more? Shouldn't we put this in the window? Don't you want to interview me? Don't you want to have me give a talk, a little talk about what happened?

[37:37]

Actually, yeah, thanks, that would be great. When would you like to do it? And so on. Oh, we can all work this out, you know, the thing is, just to make sure you're not kind of like some super delusion, or you don't have Zen sickness, that's why it's good to practice in a group when these things happen. And then you can, again, embrace and sustain all beings, naturally follows from the ending of outflows, and if they're all happy the way you're embracing and sustaining them, then that's going to make you want to go back and do the forms more, and be happy about that, and round and round it goes, embracing and sustaining the ceremonies, embracing and sustaining the happiness of release, embracing and sustaining all beings, embracing and sustaining the forms back, round and round you go, just like the Buddha. So this is like an endless cycle of the three pure precepts, one, two, three, one, two, three, actually one, two, three, all the time, together. At the beginning, when you haven't necessarily got much of a feeling for the first one, then you may not be able to really feel the second one.

[38:39]

The second one may seem like, well, I'm practicing the first one, I need to try to practice the second one. You try to embrace it all, sustain all good, and try to embrace the happiness of practice, and try to embrace and sustain all beings, but you're somewhat, if you haven't completed the first one, you're somewhat stifled or blocked in practicing the next two. But when you realize the first one completely, and naturally realize the next two, and the next two help you continue to practice the first one. So they go round and round. So part of their being indistinguishable is that you, when really you cannot tell that there's no difference between practicing the forms and the samadhi of inconceivable joy. It isn't like, you know, you take your spoon and put it in your

[39:46]

Buddha bowl, and then there's a great bliss. The bliss is inseparable from the putting the spoon in the bowl. It's not something on top of your hand touching the spoon. Because these three are inseparable, they depend on each other, and they don't have any, you know, inherent nature, because they're inseparable. You don't have a free-floating bliss of liberation. It is connected to practicing forms. Now, again, it doesn't have to be Soto Zen forms, but it is practicing a form. It is not a free-floating... if it were free-floating bliss in some other world, then it would be conceivable. But it's inconceivable because it's inseparable from bowing and chanting and being at work meeting. It's inseparable from those forms.

[40:49]

You can't pull it out the slightest bit. You also can't see it in the forms. You can see it in the forms, it would be separable too. And helping beings is inseparable from doing the forms. It's not like you do the forms and then you help people. You help beings... you help beings when you take your spoon and put it in your bowl, you embrace and sustain all beings. Now, if you're still subject to craving, you want to know how... and they always ask this issue How does, you know, for example, squeezing the tip of your Setsu save all sentient beings? How does squeezing the water out of the tip of your Setsu help homeless people? Because of craving that you want to know that, you want to get a hold of that, how does that happen? If you're free of craving, you understand how squeezing the water out of your Setsu tip saves all sentient... embraces and sustains all beings. You understand that.

[41:54]

Also because of craving you think, oh, well, squeezing the water out of Setsu... according to my understanding, squeezing water out of Setsu tip doesn't say... it doesn't help homeless people. What helps homeless people is such and such, like building a house helps homeless people. Well, that's true, it might build a house. Building a house might help homeless people. But what about right now, when you have a Setsu in your hand, what helps homeless people right now? Having the Setsu in your hand is what helps homeless people, if you hold it in your hand without outflows. If there's craving, then again you say, how? I want to know how. I want to make this act into something that I understand how it helps. If you convert the beneficent function of enlightenment into what you can understand, you... not necessarily don't kill it, but you make it inaccessible to yourself and you block the way you help people. When you're free of craving, you

[42:58]

understand and you're very happy to understand how your life right now helps all beings. And you understand and you feel, I'm ready to do whatever people want. If they want me to like dry clean my Setsu, fine. If they want me to make a house full of Setsus, no problem. I'll do whatever people need me to do. Just tell me and I'll interact with that request. Doesn't mean I'll do what you say, but I will definitely dance with your request and through that relationship. Yes? Would you say this is an outflow to not squeeze the water out of the Setsu and now you've been blowing your nose? Would I say it's not? Is it an outflow to not squeeze the water out? No. It's not necessarily an outflow. Definitely not. That could be an example of a... I wonder about that. I really don't feel like squeezing the water out of my Setsu. I'm perpetuating my cold. Yeah. So it might be that out of the

[44:03]

out of the working with the form and feeling and you might be totally free from any kind of craving or attachment to the form and very happy to practice the form and you happily you happily feel the request of all beings, you know, not necessarily that you can hear with your ears, but you know in the realm of deportment beyond hearing, you hear all beings say, Gloria, please don't squeeze that Setsu. And you don't. You feel like, I think it's in this case, I'm not I don't feel it's not so good to squeeze it. But you're still open to feedback maybe from somebody that, Gloria, how come you don't squeeze your thing? You say and then, you know, and then you have that conversation and maybe as a result of the conversation you feel like and the other person feels like, yeah, that was cool, thanks. I think that's very sweet that you did that. I appreciate that. So you can't say when you see... that's why when I saw that person with his feet flared out one, you know, I don't say, oh, that's an outflow. I say, well, what's happening? Maybe

[45:06]

he was like trying to... maybe that was like a spontaneous eruption which just happened happened every time he served me that foot just flared out there as a way as his as an expression of joy. But, you know, my conception would be that it would that they would do more than just the same thing over and over. And if you kept squeezing your Setsu tip, didn't keep, didn't squeeze it even after everything dried up and you're all healthy again, then I might say, well, how come you're still doing that? You say, oh, I forgot, I got in a habit. Oh, thanks. You know, so we're not sure about ourselves or others. Ask is an example of the kind of thing, the kind of openness about your behavior that promotes a sense of not setting up standards on your own and openness to feedback. Which is a, you know, it's a potentially, it's a risky thing to ask for feedback. And some of you are now in response to this discussion of practicing form, some of you are

[46:08]

feeling your way into like what kind of feedback would be helpful to you, which I think is reasonable not to ask for a lot of feedback before you understand what that would be like. Yes. Is there a relationship between outflow and habit energy? Well, it's the outflow and the habit energy are basically the same thing. That, again, if some form arises, a traditional form or, you know, or a kind of innovative personal form, like various sentences run across your mind, right? Like I said before, some sentences which seem to be, I don't know what, nasty or sweet, those sentences run across your mind. The sentence itself is just a linguistic utter, you know, a linguistic presentation to your awareness. It's not a defilement unless you have an energetic response to it. So the outflows are not just any old energetic response to it. It's not like what

[47:11]

you call it, non-partisan, balanced support of any kind of thought that comes up. It's usually some habitual contribution of energy to some thought, or habitual retraction of energy from a thought. So certain thoughts come up and we say, I'm not going to give that thought any energy. Or some thoughts come up and say, I'll give that thought a lot of energy. When you give certain thoughts a lot of energy or take energy away from thoughts, then they become defilements. Even good thoughts that you put a lot of energy into, in a habitual way, then they become a defilement. The outflow is your habit, your bias, by which you infuse life energy into various thoughts and give them more energy than they need, or less energy than they need. Of course, you try to give them less energy than they need, then they get more energy than they need, because you're manipulating them. So the way you handle your energy, or your ability to respond to various

[48:17]

thoughts, that habitual way, is basically the same as outflow. Suppose one gives energy to any sample of the mind, and that's not habitual, but you endeavor each time to make more of a certain energy from that outflow. No, not the way you put it. To devote your energy equally to all things is not our habit, right? That's not our habit. Every person you meet, you give the same amount of energy. That's not our habit. We give more energy to some people, more attention to some people, and less to others, and others we try to make sure that they don't get any. This person is not going to get any energy from me. This person is not going to be able to give me any feedback, because I'm not going to give them anything to feedback on. Matter of fact, I'll present a total imposter of myself, just in case they don't like it, so they won't touch me at

[49:19]

all. Of course, it's nonsense, because going out of your way not to give a person anything to work with, you actually give them a lot to work with, although they don't know what it is, and they're totally confused, you've just given them a lot. But you don't do that with everybody. Some people you present, well, or maybe you do, this imposter to this person, this impersonation to that person, this impersonation to this person, I'm a strict father to this person, I'm a real, you know, what do you call it, flexible lover to this person, I'm a great donor to this person. All these different persons we present to different people, this is presenting our energy not in an equal way, but to present yourself like each syllable of the Dharani, you know. The certain parts of Daya Shindirani probably you like more than others, right? Like, ikki, ikki, yukki, yukki. Or baba, baba, I really like that. Or I really like,

[50:21]

like a John, like shuu, [...] shuu. Certain parts you like, you put, oh, now I can really put my energy in here, this part, oh, So, this is outflows in the Dharani and you feel that, Oh, I like this chant, this is the Sandokaya, it's my favorite, you know, I like, or, but not this, oh, Mettasuta, no. Or I like this translation, oh, this one doesn't chant well, so I'm going to hold back my energy on this one, or I'm going to put so much energy into it that we never chant again. This is called habit energy, this is not devoting yourself, you know, non-discriminatingly to each syllable, each person, each breath. To breathe each breath non-discriminately is Prajnatara's teaching, right? You don't abide in body and mind as you're breathing. Some breaths you make, the body, the mind's producing this thing, I don't want to follow

[51:25]

my breath, but you don't, like, reject that or punish yourself for that thought that you don't like to follow your breath, you don't, like, go with the thought that you want to follow your breath, you just watch the thought, I don't want to follow my breath. Or, you know, following the breath is really, like, totally cool, I love it, you know, and so therefore, you know, you give that a lot of energy. These are outflows, they appear to everybody, right? A lot, or more than a lot, or not so much, whatever, anyway, the way to overcome these biases which are appearing, these preferences over certain syllables, or certain people over others, is to recognize them, and to start studying everything, try to study everything with equal attention, so even though a part of you is not studying things with equal attention and not giving equal energy to everything, part of you is still in this biased, craving

[52:26]

path, another part of you is just watching that, and watches the things it likes, and watches the craving, and the outflows, all the same. You ardently practice studying everything. You give your full attention to each thing, and that's it. And then, even though these habits are still going on, your practice, in the midst of habits which are set up by selfishness, your practice is selfless, namely, you give your enemies the same amount of attention, not more, the same amount of attention that you give your friends. Now, you might, because it's just an experiment, sometimes an experiment of giving your enemies a little bit more attention, a little bit more love than your friends, just to sort of like get over the hump, but then gradually, you don't give your enemies more money than you give your friends. Yes? How do you practice ardently, without wanting to practice ardently, which is something else?

[53:30]

Well, some people practice ardently, without wanting to practice ardently, they just do. Now, I said, so I think another way to ask you a question is, if you do want to practice ardently, how do you practice ardently, without wanting to? Well, you can't, that's how you do it, you don't. So some people practice ardently, that's just their style, you know, they're just ardent, it's no problem for them. Or some people practice ardently, it's not their style, but when you do want to, when you hear about it and you want to, and you're caught in the craving of wanting to practice ardently, then you don't do it without that, you recognize, you pay attention to, you honor in awareness that you're wanting, that you're craving to be an ardent Zen monk, you want to, you want to be like Buddha, you have a craving to be like Buddha, you recognize that craving. If Buddha had known about Buddha, Buddha might have wanted to be Buddha too.

[54:36]

But the Buddha saw that craving, saw what it led to, and by meditating on how it led to misery, and seeing how it has come to be and what comes to be in relationship to it, he became free of the craving. The craving was, you know, he lost his power, it was abandoned, he was free of it, and he was even unattached to the craving. He doesn't, at the point of realizing freedom from craving, you don't mind craving anymore. You know it's a cause of suffering, but you don't like have a big heavy thing on it, you just see it for what it is and become free. You don't take it to court. So if you don't have any desire vis-a-vis being ardent, then just be ardent. If you do have desire, recognize the desire, uprightly, as best you can, giving it just

[55:43]

the right amount of attention, not too much, and you become free of it. And just to prove that your psyche, just to prove and verify that you're free, your psyche may keep presenting it to you for a long time after you're free of it, just to make sure that you don't have to have it be gone in order to be free of it. Because if you have to have it gone to be free of it, you're not free of it. And this is the Bodhisattva way, right? We keep exposing ourselves to the very things that we're free of, just to make sure that we're not dreaming. But again, we expose ourselves to the people that we're free of after we're free of them. We stay in the community after we're free of the community, just to make sure. Do you feel like I'm free of you? I feel free of you. Do you feel like I'm free of you? I do, but it really hurts my feelings that you are. Well, I'm sorry. Let's work on that. I mean, I don't want to go back and not be free of you just because of that, but isn't

[56:46]

there something we could… Maybe you could become free of me too, that might help. Maybe you could become free of me becoming free of you. Yes? That kind of leads into my question. You talked about giving energy to people. I was wondering about receiving energy, so that, in my experience, I'm drawn to situations where people, where I experience an increase in energy. Right. And where I'm inspired, for example. Right. So, how does that fit into this? Well, again, I didn't mention it in the last few words I said, but the word asarva

[57:49]

means flood, and leakage… In a boat, you know, in a boat leakage is usually… the problem of leakage is the leakage into the boat, right? So, the leakage can be in or out. So, to be inflated in your relationship, to be energetically inflated in relationship to things can also be an outflow. Or, when you feel inflation, energetic inflation in relationship to things, it's maybe a sign of an outflow, but it's not necessarily a sign of outflow, because eating rice, in a sense, is an inflation of energy to the system. Okay? But it isn't necessarily a flood for your energy to increase. Your energy increases in this craving way, when the increase is in terms of the way you see the situation. Okay? So, whenever you see a situation and you look at part of it, rather than the totality of

[58:54]

the situation, then there can be increase or decrease in that part of the picture. But, if you saw the whole picture, you wouldn't see the increase or decrease. So, you're sitting there and you're seeing your relationships with people or ideas or whatever, and you experience some increase or decrease in that partial picture. If you continue to be, you know, upright and ardent and diligent and clear, you'll start to see the relationship between the small picture and the larger, more full picture of the situation. As you see more and more of the full picture, then there's no increase or decrease. Right. The whole system doesn't gain or lose energy. You stay at 98.6, basically. But, even aside from your own personal temperature, the whole life system doesn't seem to be increasing

[59:56]

or decreasing in energy. And when you see that, then although there still may be variations in energy, it's not a gain or loss kind of thing. You see changes in the distribution in the situation, but the overall thing is not a gain or loss for you. So, inspiration can be an outflow, or inspiration can be an encouragement to meditate, to be aware of what's happening. Inspiration is more of an outflow when mainly what seems to be inspired is more and more awareness of your independence. You know, you feel energy increase to you being an individual, that's like an outflow, that's like a flood, that's an impurity.

[60:56]

Or you feel a decrease in energy of you as an individual, but to feel inspired, but not personally inspired, but just the whole situation is uplifted, and you enjoy the uplifting of the whole situation and that inspiration of the whole situation to practice, that doesn't seem to be an outflow. And that's the bliss of interconnectedness and freedom from selfishness. And energy can go up and down in that field too, but it isn't the increase or decrease of energy that's the point, but maybe increase in joy at awareness of the whole picture, which seems more alive in a way, but it's not personal. It's like the joy of impersonalness that a person can partake of. Yes? So if you see craving and thereby become free of it, are you then also free to act on that

[61:58]

craving? How does acting work when you're seeing your desires? Well, in terms of the three pure precepts, when you're free of craving, it means that you've learned to practice these forms with no gaining idea. This opens you up to a great joy while you're practicing the forms. Now you're practicing the forms still with no gaining idea, and in a sense you get a big gain, you get a lot of joy, but the joy is inseparable from continuing to practice these forms without any gaining motivation, or free of a gaining motivation. From that position of a joyful practice, your natural thing is to embrace and sustain all beings. Now, if it would help to embrace and sustain all beings, to do a little, I don't know, psychodrama of your craving, then you do it. Like I say, you might go up to a person and say, give me the cakes.

[63:00]

What's in your purse? Give me a kiss. You might say these things, but you wouldn't say them like to get the kiss or to get the purse. You'd get it as an expression of this craving which has happened to manifest in your life, and it manifested because that would help you embrace and sustain this person. Not embrace them and own them, but embrace and sustain their practice. And sometimes it helps people if you just say, I'm feeling this terrific craving. Sometimes that helps them. The person walks up to you and you suddenly feel this craving, and to recognize that is to embrace and sustain the situation. Like somebody might get all dressed up, you know, just to make you feel some craving. And they walk over to you and you say, fine, I'm totally up to my eyeballs in craving. This is fantastic. I feel like, you know, just gobbling you up. You look so delicious. Did you do that on purpose? Did you get dressed up like that just to make me feel that way? Yes, I did.

[64:02]

Well, you were successful. And now everybody's free, you know. Huh? Which is what she was asking. So in this place, if it is helpful for you to act on craving, act on it. But that's not really acting on craving. That's just recognizing craving and calling it craving. And expressing that you feel that way is not acting it. When you feel craving to fully express it, you cannot do that. You cannot fully express what's happening unilaterally. You need somebody else or a lot of other people there to interact with you to fully express it. And sometimes the way they help you fully express it is they say, don't talk like that. That's really weird when you say you're feeling craving for me. Well, yeah, I guess it is, isn't it?

[65:04]

And I felt kind of funny myself. I hadn't talked like that for weeks. But it just sort of came up there, and I thought I'd tell you about it. Well, it was weird, and I appreciate that, actually. But stop now, okay? What just came to mind is that one of the teachers who taught during the special session we had at the Green Gulch a couple of years ago was named Narasaki Sugen Roshi. He's older now. He's about 70. And he's a close friend of Katagiri Roshi's. And he said that he went to talks given by Kishizawa Ion Roshi, who was one of Suzuki Roshi's... who was Suzuki Roshi's second teacher, really, after his... he was trained by one teacher, Yoko Junson, up until he was about 26, and his teacher died. And then when he got a little older, Suzuki Roshi went to study with Kishizawa Ion,

[66:08]

who was a really great teacher of Shobo Genzo. So, anyways, Narasaki Roshi also went to study with Kishizawa Roshi when he was very young, because Kishizawa Roshi died in 55, I think. Anyway, he said he went to this long talk about certain teachings, about the transmission of Dharma ceremony. He said at the end of the ceremony, now there's only one thing he can remember from the whole week of talks, and that was Narasaki Roshi said, you know, you Zen monks must have the mind of an infant. If you lose that mind, you cannot realize Buddha. Now, we already have a mind of an adult, or an adolescent at least. But what we need in addition to those minds is we need the mind of an infant, a mind which, you know, just feels whatever is appropriate,

[67:12]

without any deliberation, which responds out of this non-attachment, this blissful non-attachment responds to what's happening without any deliberation, without any calculation, as though you didn't even know how. But this is that kind of childish, not childish, infant-like response in the midst of detachment to go try to be like, to carry your attachments with you, and your biases with you, and your outflows with you, and then try to act like an infant. That's not the mind of an infant. The mind of an infant is free of these habitual energetic responses. They're responding energetically, but not habitually, they don't have any habits yet. They will soon, it doesn't take long, it's only a few minutes before they turn into habits. But some of those responses are like never-before-seen, they're just totally fresh, and they're not acting out,

[68:13]

and there's a response there too, a real response, which makes the full expression possible. Again, that's why we need to practice in groups. And I think I'll say this too, I think I've said it before, is that you hear stories about various sages practicing by themselves, well, like Milarepa, but Milarepa trained a long time in a group before he did that. And you hear about various other Zen monks being up in the high mountain pine forests, sitting in caves, but all these Zen monks trained to completion in the group first, and they're just sitting up there, they're totally free of outflows, they're sitting up there in the bliss of interconnectedness and selflessness,

[69:16]

waiting for the beings to come and ask them to do their thing. They're waiting for time for teaching, to help people. But to go there before you've really cleared up your outflows, then you can just fool yourself. And there are actually, even Dongshan, was it Dongshan? No, no, Dongshan's disciple, Yunju, Ungodoyo, he went out in the forest to practice before he had ended outflows, and as a result, he got this big infusion, he got this infusion of divine support. Deities came and fed him, so he didn't need to come down to the Zendo to get his meals anymore, because he had that outflow. Finally, somehow, he ran into Dongshan, and Dongshan said, Where have you been? You haven't been coming for meals. He said, Well, you know, I'm getting divine nourishment.

[70:17]

He said, Oh, I never thought this would happen to you. So then he had feedback. Then they got the outflows taken care of, and then he went back and practiced again. But this time, he needed ordinary food. He wasn't into some special thing anymore. Buddha ate rice before and after enlightenment. So is that clear how that works, in a way? Three pure precepts and nirvana? And again, before you're free of craving,

[71:22]

you have difficulty accepting the bliss of interconnectedness, which is all around us all the time, because we don't want such inconceivable bliss, because we can't know it. But when you've given up your outflows, you can stand to have a happiness that you can't get your grips on. Yes? I'm wondering, if you had a very serious problem, would you and do you consult other people, people of your stature? Or do you consider that you're at a certain level, or do teachers become at a certain level, where they don't need to consult others? Well, one of the problems of being a teacher is that you don't necessarily have someone of your whatever right nearby.

[72:25]

If you did, then it would be very easy to consult with, not easy, but it would be very convenient that you had them nearby, and then you would do well to consult with them. But you can't necessarily consult with people who, in a sense, aren't your peers. I have consulted with people who aren't my peers and regretted it, because they couldn't handle what I gave them. It was too, you know... It set me back in terms of consultation. So now, in the future, if I have opportunities like that, I just have to more feel the ground, I think, put more energy into seeing whether the person is really up to hearing my situation. For a long time, when I was Abbot at Zen Center, I didn't really feel like I could talk to anybody at Zen Center about my problems, because most of my problems were about relationships with people at Zen Center.

[73:31]

And so I felt like everybody I would talk to about my problems would know the people I'm talking about and then meet them again in a few days, and then they would have that in their mind and that would confuse their relationship with the people. So it's not only someone of your stature, but someone who... either your stature or more developed, someone who was so developed that they had no personal agenda with any of the problems you're talking about, that person you could talk to, too. But now you need someone of your stature or more developed, but somebody who really doesn't have any agenda with or investment in the stories that you're talking about. And that's sometimes hard to find. So that's part of the reason why, if someone comes to talk to me in Dogsign, I don't encourage them to get into talking about the other person too much, but only talk about the other person to the extent that we're clear that what we're talking about

[74:34]

is your own response to that person, what we're talking about is your own opinion of the person. Now, we're not talking about the other person. It's not that the other person is this terrible, cruel, selfish person, but rather we're talking about my perception of them being a terrible, cruel person. I don't really need to know their name. If I know their name, then you're, on some level, maybe subtly poisoning my mind against the person to tell me these things. I might start feeling that way about the person if I take in your perception of them. So, in my case, I saw a therapist for all the years I was Abbott, and before, I saw a therapist and told the therapist about the problems I was having with people. And, of course, whenever I told him these problems, he was always like, I could never believe. He was always on my side. God, those people are really... And I usually have to say, Oh, no, they're not that bad. Take it easy. But he didn't, you know... And it was just my report of them, right? Now, in some cases, these people were somewhat famous,

[75:38]

so he had his own resources, so he'd get a little carried away. Yeah, that person... But it never went anywhere. And, basically, he just helped me. Usually, he just helped me be kind and patient with whoever I was having trouble with. He helped me hang in there in the relationship. That's what was needed. But if I had told people at Zen Center, they might have gone and told the person, or they might have told their spouse, who would tell the person that I had this perception of them. And some of my perceptions of people have been difficult for me, the way I perceive them. They walk and they talk, or I think they walk and talk, right? I think you walk and talk, and I think you think, and I have my perceptions of you walking and you talking and you thinking. My perceptions are not what you are, but still, I sometimes am troubled by my perceptions. One time I was over in the... One famous one,

[76:39]

I was over in the Abbots Garden one time, talking to somebody, and I said, Fortunately, I do not believe what I'm thinking of you right now. I do not believe what I'm thinking of you. I do not believe what I'm thinking of you. What I'm thinking of you is not. I don't believe it. I'm not even going to say it's not true, what I'm thinking of you, but I don't believe it, I don't believe it, I don't believe it, I'm not falling for this. And I started yelling at the person, I don't believe what I'm thinking of you. And I didn't. I didn't believe it. But the person understood that I was really working on that. So she started, she changed somewhat. So I started thinking differently about her. Then I didn't have to believe that either, but I didn't have to worry about what I believed then. Finally, I just saw a woman sitting there, which I didn't believe either, but, you know, if I did, it wouldn't have been that much of a problem.

[77:39]

But what I saw before, if I believed it, if I thought it was true, I would have... it would have been a big problem. So everybody survived, because I didn't believe my perceptions. With some perceptions, I can't talk about to anybody, I can't say to the person, you know, I don't believe what I think of you. I can't say that to them, for whatever reason. So then I'm carrying it around. How do I stop believing my perception? I have to talk to somebody about it. So I had somebody to talk about it. But now that I'm not avid anymore, I don't feel such a need to talk to somebody, because the way people are treating me is much different. So now what I perceive is I don't perceive the same world and therefore I don't need so much help to hang in there in my relationships with people. Now, I don't know if the world really changed or if I changed, because, you know, it's hard to say, you know, what happened, but anyway, it's different. I don't feel like I have to, you know, do that.

[78:40]

But anyway, I couldn't talk to anybody who's answering about what was going on. So it is hard for me to find someone to talk to who really doesn't have an agenda in the situation. Who, you know, wouldn't know that they could rock a big ship with this piece of information. Very powerful little gem of perception. Yes? I'm just going to turn that around. I'm sure you're in a position where you get a lot of feedback. And I'm just wondering, how do you work with that? How do you decide what to take in and what to not listen to and how do you do it? Well, my vow is not to not listen to anything. My... You know, the character, which I maybe told you about, the character which I translated, which I'm saying embrace and sustain. Okay? Embrace and sustain the ceremonies, embrace and sustain

[79:41]

the bliss of selflessness, embrace and sustain all beings. That character, which can be translated as embrace and sustain all, can be translated as fulfill, it can be translated as nourish, assist, guide, receive with compassion and benefit. All these different... But the character itself has three ears and a hand radical. Three ear radical... Actually, three ear characters and a radical for hand. Mostly, it has to do with listening. Listen to the forms. Listen to the zazen, listen to the qin, listen to the schedule, listen to the bells, listen to the people. Listen, listen, listen. And then, relate, listen and relate, listen and relate. Receive and embrace. Take in, accept. So, my ideal is to listen to everything. But, whenever I listen to anything, I don't really listen to it. I convert what I hear into my own system.

[80:45]

So, you can say to me, boo, boo, boo. And I make that into criticism, criticism, criticism. Or I make it into praise, praise, praise. But I try to listen to everything plus also not fall from my interpretation of what it means. So, if you say, I think you're doing well, I say, what do you mean by that? If you say, I think you're doing poorly, I say, what do you mean by that? Still, I keep interpreting your response to my questions, but the point is, I never, my vow is to never settle on what that means. But to keep probing with the feedback and inviting more to understand in such a way that I become free of my perceptions. But to keep taking in, taking in. And the more I take in, the more I receive with this exploratory mode of trying to find out, the more, the wider I let things in. I let more information in that way. And then if I handle more information

[81:48]

in this same open-minded way of studying everything with equal energy, then I get more. And then finally, hopefully, I'll get total information and be able to be upright in the middle of that. Then, it isn't that I settle on what it means, it's that I settle on understanding of what it means, so that I'm free of my perceptions. That's my goal. That's my intention, is to become free of what I see, to become free of appearances. But through receiving them more and more, hopefully more and more non-judgmentally, more and more non-discriminatingly, which means to study my discriminations, I think this was a compliment, I think this was an insult, to study that discrimination. By studying these discriminations, I become free of them. That's my intention. Now, if I'm getting feedback

[82:51]

to such an extent, I feel myself tightening up, then I might say, Time out! You know, I'm not receiving this anymore. Just give me a little break now, okay? Let me rest here for a little bit, getting back in my body. That last comment, I feel my body tensing and I'm not processing. Give me some time. And usually people will give me a little break until I can find out how I feel about that, and then try again. Some feedback really does rip you to shreds. I've been in meetings where people have said things to me and I stayed in my chair and walked out of the meeting, but I had a sense, you know, that that was pretty good. I just survived the meeting. I go home and then somebody tells me what happened, and I say, Oh my God! To some extent, I wouldn't even know how deeply I was hurt.

[83:51]

But I know that I sort of got kind of dazed and then later I could feel. You know, you can be stabbed with a sharp knife and hardly feel it. Do you know that? Or in the gut, you can be stabbed. One of my friends was stabbed in the stomach one time. He said he felt something, he felt heat, but he had no idea he had been stabbed until he got home. And psychically too, we can stab each other and the person can walk off. We cannot know that we did it to them, and they cannot know that it happened, but later they turn black and blue, or they find their boots full of blood. And so, we can hurt each other, consciously or unconsciously, but we can learn from all these interactions and become more skillful

[84:53]

and help each other by giving each other feedback and receiving feedback and also guiding people about how to give you feedback. Like you can say, you know, what you said, if it wasn't the content, it was the tone of voice, if you would just change the tone of your voice, I could have received that, but since you talk with that tone of voice, I just closed down, so I could hardly hear what you said, plus I'm upset now about the tone of voice. But now that I've recovered, I realize that what you said was fine, but if you would talk to me in a different tone of voice or phrase it differently or speak in terms of how you feel rather than that you're talking about me, this would help me. So you can help other people give you feedback in a way that you can receive it if you want to. But this is something we're struggling with, we're groping with. How do we do that? How do we... So... But isn't that just catering to your outflow? You're just sort of humoring the outflow, aren't you?

[85:53]

I think, well, catering, humoring and gentleness are not, you know, totally different worlds. So if you don't... If you don't honor your outflows, then they'll say, well, we came out of the woods, we showed you the outflow, you smashed it, now we're going to go back into hiding and run you for another ten years. You know, the outflows are in the back for most people. Most people are not aware of their outflows as outflows. They're just slaves of their outflows. You know what I mean? They're a slave of their emotional and energetic biases. You know, just powerless. We're powerless because we don't know about them. As long as you don't know about your craving, if you know nothing about your craving, you're basically totally in control by it. When your craving or outflow comes out and you start seeing them a little bit, then I would say that anything you can do to promote the exposure,

[86:54]

even a little bit of coddling, you know, saying, you know, I've just got my outflows out and now you're jumping on me for these things. I've been jumping on myself for them all this time. That's why they've been in hiding is that my parents and I, first my parents and now I started punishing myself so I don't want to have these things out in front that I'm going to punish so I've hidden them. Then they drive you. When they get out in front, whatever promotes the exposure, even if it's a little, I don't know what, overly sweet or whatever, you might be okay. If you doubt for yourself that that's okay or you doubt for another, that's another thing to discuss out in front. But if you, if you're too rough with these things they'll go back into hiding. That's why it's a careful thing when you start, when you start expressing yourself and start showing your outflows, it's important to be, to set up a situation

[87:56]

where you maybe have an understanding beforehand. Now if I show you something really embarrassing or really sleazy, what are you going to do with it? You want some understanding. And if you handle it in a rough way, what is my recourse? You might want to clarify some process rules before you start really showing certain things that you're afraid to look at yourself. You know, if you seem, if you scoff at my, as I tell you my imperfections, if you scoff at me, what recourse do I have to you? Can I call you on that? Are you accountable for that? Do you want to do that? And if you do what you don't want to do, how do we handle that? These things are good to discuss beforehand. Before you, if you show your heart, if you bare your heart, if you bare your, your, your, especially your defiled, habitual way you use your heart, if you show that to people and then, and then they, they attack you for that or act disgusted with you,

[88:57]

that's just going to feed into the, to the way you've attacked and been disgusted by that thing in yourself, that's why you've kept it hidden. So if you do that and you get that kind of harsh feedback, that may set you back a long time. So you need to, you need to be realistic about, about that this material is very delicate and you've kept it hidden and we don't know about this stuff for lots of reasons and respect those reasons and be careful about how it's unfolded. And the difference between indulging or catering to the, to the thing and supporting the context for exposure might be rather subtle, so you need to sort of talk about that too. You might be able to create a situation where the parties involved are fairly strict or severe about dealing with certain things but they've agreed beforehand that these things are not, are not going to be painful to deal with and they can be kind of strict

[89:58]

and say, outflow, there's an outflow, that's it. They can just, you know, call outflows left and right and that's not considered to be rude because they've agreed beforehand, it's okay, call outflows. Or you might say, we're not going to do that. The person calls their own outflows, you don't call the outflows for them. Maybe you don't call them but you may say, may I ask permission to call an outflow? The person may say, no. And a couple days later you say, okay, I feel different and not today, if you want to call, whatever that outflow was a couple days ago, you can call it now. What was it? Say, oh, I forgot. So, this is, okay, yes. I mean, for myself, it's hard for me to see my own outflows. So, in terms of how I might perceive somebody else, it almost seems like it's

[90:58]

compounded in terms of difficulty, in terms of, I might say, I don't quite understand what's going on with you and ask them to check it themselves but I don't know that I could call them on that, please. Yeah, so, the, so, yeah, I don't very often go around, I almost never say to somebody, you've got an outflow there but if the person is displaying their psychic processes to you, I mean, that's what's happening, okay, and they say, you know, where's the outflow, where's the defilement, you know, where's the not outflow, you know, in that situation where they're actually asking you to comment on the nature of what they're demonstrating to you, then you might say, well, that seems to be the outflow, but even that might be true, sometimes people expose themselves to you and show you how they're working but they don't want you to name things, they just want you to listen. Sometimes they say, well, now I've shown you that, where's the outflow in the situation, is there an outflow, and you say, yeah, that

[91:59]

looked like an outflow, this language sounds like an outflow, but just to go up to some innocent bystander and say, you're leaking, probably that almost doesn't sound some and say,

[92:14]

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