Yesterday I said that maybe I should start by getting right into a story about how Dungsang was helped in his process of Great Awakening. I still want to do that, but I don't want to get right into it. But this morning I didn't, just as a time to bow for Dungsang, I looked on and saw part of my robe over my left arm was coming loose a little bit and I reached down and pulled it and I almost got caught, but let go and dived into the bow. So I did make it down there for Dungsang. And so I thought, well maybe today I'll be able to do it. I think it might happen. But I really thought that although there's many points in Chapter 7 I want to talk about,

[01:03]

there's one thing that I want to go over again which I think is very important or useful in approaching all these Zen stories. There's something in the sutra, but also something someone said to me recently, which people often say in Zen practice, you know, in the context of this practice period and hearing Bodhidharma's instructions which are, you know, outwardly, you know, in other words, when you see what appears to be external objects or stories about external life, give it a rest. So, then people say, well, should we sometimes get into the stories?

[02:04]

You know, I heard the instruction of give my stories a rest, but how about sometimes getting into the stories? And recently I was asked that and I said, well, there's psychotherapy where you get into the stories. But now I'd like to say that what Zen stories are about, in a lot of ways, they're stories about people who are caught in their stories and how the people who are caught in their stories are helped to become free of their stories. So Zen stories are stories that Zen students are allowed to get into to some extent, because the Zen stories are about how to become free of stories. But if you go into your own stories, it's okay to go into your own stories if your intention

[03:12]

of going into them is to give them a rest as you go into them. Sometimes it's hard to give something a rest unless you're real close to it. So, and again, psychotherapy, I think, to some extent, might be, therapy means, literally it means attending. So psychotherapy might help us attend to our psychic events, attend to the stories that our psyche creates in such a way that we can let go of the stories. Zen stories are about helping people become free of the lull of their stories, the lull of conventional designation, the spell which most of us have cast upon our life.

[04:18]

So it is potentially helpful, beneficial to go into these stories, or traditional stories, if we do so with the intention of not indulging in them, but with the intention of breaking the spell of thought construction. And as people go into the koans, go into the stories, together with their teacher, the teacher and the student can help each other not get stuck, not be in the enchantment of words. The words themselves aren't enchantments, but, well actually, enchantment can actually

[05:25]

be the words you use to enchant, and the effect of the spell. So the part of the sutra I wanted to go over once again is in chapter 7, after the Buddha talks about these different types of lack of own being, the lack of own being which the mind of the Buddha is non-dualistically aware of, then Buddha says, I don't teach these to people who don't confuse the nature of the characteristics of phenomena. I don't teach it to people who don't confuse the imaginary imputations with the other dependent. I don't teach it to such people. I don't teach it to people who don't confuse the imputational with the thoroughly established. I teach it to people who do get those things confused. And then I think this is a really nice part of this, nice and not too difficult part of

[06:30]

the sutra which is good to really remember. Now these people superimposing, superimposing the other dependent character, no excuse me, I have abbreviations here, and also I have a flashlight. I haven't been able to read what I've been trying to read you for quite a few days now, but now I've got this nice red flashlight superimposing the OB, you know that right, Diana? OB. You need a hearing aid. I've got a flashlight now and you need a hearing aid. Superimposing the OB, own being, onto the IC, imputational character.

[07:35]

Superimposing the own being of the IC onto the OB of the OD. Superimposing the own being of the imputational character onto the own being of the other dependent character. That's what most people do. And onto the thoroughly established character. People hear about emptiness then they superimpose the imputational character on the emptiness or on slushiness too. So that's what those people do. So superimposing the own being of the imputational character on the other two characters are phenomenal. This is funny? Was this Obi-Wan Kenolio? I mean, a new entertainment at Tassajara. I mean, Tassajara, this is funny, right? For

[08:46]

the sake of future generations, that's referring to this wand, this illuminated wand. Most people superimpose the own being of the imputational character onto the own being of the other dependent and the thoroughly established characters. So then sentient beings subsequently attribute conventions of the character of the own being of the imputational to the own being of the other dependent and the thoroughly established. So first of all, you superimpose the image, the concept of the imputational character. You impute the self onto independent existence and you impute the self onto ultimate reality. Then you impute the conventions that go with

[09:51]

those images onto those things. So first of all, you impute the self, then you use the words and concepts along with them. That's the first step the sutra mentions. Then next, to the extent that they subsequently attribute these conventions, their minds become infused with these conventional designations. So first of all, you have these images of things existing on their own, which you project onto things which don't exist on their own. Then you impute the conventions associated with this imputation to those things and then your mind becomes infused with these conventions. So now you have the image of something that doesn't exist, a self, which comes naturally, which you impose on things. And then you impose

[10:59]

the conventions on the things along with the image of self and then your mind becomes full of these conventions mixed in with the images of things that don't exist. So the person is chock-full of images of things that don't exist along with conventional designations for all that. Thereafter, because of being bound, now you're getting bound to conventional designations and due to predispositions towards these designations, then you strongly adhere to the character of the own being of the imputational character as the own being of the other dependent. So first of all, you do it and then you set up a strong inclination to continue. Does that make sense? Blah, blah, blah...up to humans.

[12:37]

They will not go beyond sexual existence. So that part of the sutra, which is on page 105 in Powers, I think very nicely describes how imagination gets coupled with language and conventional designation to put us into bondage. And then after that, then Buddha says, right after that, these people do not pass beyond... Better get this thing out again. This is an enactment for the future generations listening to a tape of Star Wars again. I don't know if you can hear this background music.

[13:39]

So then Buddha says, Paramartha, first I teach a lack of own being in terms of production. So then he goes into teaching a lack of own being in terms of production. And one can go over this point in the scripture a million times, because in fact, if you're meditating on the other dependent character, that's what you do, you go over the teaching of dependent co-arising a million times, more than a million times. You're always thinking about dependent co-arising as the basic quality of all existence. And then one more thing, which I wasn't going to say, but I am going to say, is this production of this lack of own being in terms of production means a lack of own being in terms of self-production.

[14:43]

But that does not mean that the other dependent character does not come to exist by way of its own character. It means it doesn't come to exist in the way imagined by the imputational character. It doesn't come to exist in the way of being produced as a self, but it does get produced by way of its own character, which is other dependence. Now, I would actually like to have another class dealing with this point. It's very difficult to understand. I don't think I can do it in the lecture, but we'll see. Because as we read yesterday, which was a difficult point for people, the Buddha does teach that that which is not established by way of its own character is not produced.

[15:52]

That which is not established, that which does not exist by way of its own character does not exist. The other dependent character is established by way of its own character. Conventionally. Otherwise it wouldn't exist at all, so then there wouldn't be an other dependent character, and then we'd have nihilism. And that's the part of this chapter which is dealt with on page 119 of the Tibetan translation, where they talk about these people who come to deprecate the three characters. By literally taking the teaching of a lack of own being to mean that even other dependent things do not exist because nothing can arise by way of its own character, but something can arise by way of its own character.

[16:54]

Other dependent characters can conventionally exist that way. And one other thing to say is that Buddha does teach that, that some things exist by way of their own character, but some things don't exist by way of their own character, and the things that don't exist by way of their own character are called imputational characters. So production lack of own being means that the other dependent character doesn't exist by way of its own character the way the imputational character is imagined to exist, because the imputational character does not exist by way of its own character. It doesn't exist at all. That's the way of existing by self-production, rather than existing by way of its own character. But it can't exist by way of its own character because its character is that it imagines that it's not other dependent. So we'll have a class on this, maybe. Okay, then, just moving on now, getting to the story, just one step away from the story.

[17:59]

Okay? Yeah, thank you. I can't remember where it is. Anybody know where it says, in Dogen, where he says something like words and phrases are discriminating thought? You know, poor people, they don't realize that words and phrases are discriminating thought. In other words, conventional designation are discriminating dualistic thought. And conventional designation liberates dualistic, discriminating consciousness. Where is that? Anybody know? It was on the tip of my mind, I can't find it. Anyway, that says the conventional designations are actually,

[19:02]

they're not actually out there, they are our mind, which appears as conventional designations externally. And the mind, which is conventional designation, the consciousness, which is conventional designation, which we think is an external thing, that consciousness, which is conventional designations, that is dualistic consciousness. And we use those conventional designations to liberate that dualistic consciousness. That's how you liberate it. And then in the introduction to the case 18 of the Book of Serenity, case 18 of the Book of Serenity is a story about a monk who comes to Jiaozhou and says, does a dog have Buddha nature? And the answer in the Book of Serenity, the first answer is, yes.

[20:06]

And then it says later in the story, another monk came and asked Jiaozhou, does a dog have Buddha nature? And Jiaozhou said, moo! In other words, no. So, you don't do very well on these quizzes when I ask you, what do you think I would think? But I'm going to ask, what do you think I think about the monk that came to see Jiaozhou? Well, you would think that that monk had a mind that was kind of lulled by words. That monk was like caught in conventional designation. That's what you would think of that monk. That's the answer to the question. Did you know I would have thought that's what I thought? No. So, I should have asked that time. So, that's what I think about that monk that came and said, does a dog have Buddha nature? That monk is caught in conventional designations like most people that the Buddha is teaching.

[21:12]

Because most people's minds are infused with conventional designations and bound in conventional designations and proliferating conventional designations. It's a mess of conventional designations, all tightly packaged into a human existence. So, then they go and say, well, okay, so everything's got Buddha nature, how about a dog? This is what happens to mine, you know, it's got conventional designations. So, then Jiaozhou says, yeah, it does. He's trying to help the monk get out of this net. And another monk also caught in the net of conventional designations says, does a dog have Buddha nature? And Jiaozhou says, no. It's not that a dog does have Buddha nature or doesn't have Buddha nature. It's that Jiaozhou's trying to help people become free of the language of dog and Buddha nature and have and have not. Jiaozhou's trying to be kind by saying, yep, nope.

[22:25]

Hmm. Somebody told me a story about Jiaozhou taking a walk with one of his friends. They were walking along the road, you know, and a rabbit came out and ran away. And his friend said, how come that rabbit ran away? Doesn't that rabbit know, like, you're just the sweetest guy in the world? How come it didn't come up and jump in your arms? You're so compassionate. And Jiaozhou says, because the rabbit knows I'm good at killing things. But he didn't kill things. People who can't kill anything, if they don't kill anything, it doesn't really count that much. But people who can kill well and don't, that's really good. And humans can kill.

[23:29]

We're the best killers on the planet. So when we don't kill, it's really, really good. So Jiaozhou says, yep, nope, to help these people. And then in the introduction, which is really the reason why I went to the case, it says, it doesn't really say this, but, it doesn't really say, even. I'm putting even in. And what follows after even, it does say, even immeasurably great people are tossed about in the stream of words. The stream of words in our consciousness. We get tossed about by the stream of words. This person likes me, this person hates me, this person respects me, this person is dissing me.

[24:35]

This person is lovely, this person is ugly, this person is mean, this person is nice, this person is kind, this person is cruel. And it's not to say that people aren't kind or cruel. That's not really the problem. The problem is the conventional designations that we make on the people that throw us all over the place. If you're not caught in conventional designations about cruel people, you can help them. You can help them. If you're not caught in conventional designations about kind people, you can help them. But if we're caught in conventional designations, we're just tossed all over the place. Even a great person gets flipped all over the place in the stream of conventional designations that are running through their consciousness. That's what it says. And then they give examples of these two nice monks who are like totally disoriented in the stream of words. Going to the Zen Master who is in the stream of words with them, but not so disoriented, so he can say,

[25:43]

Nope, yep, nope, yep. So then it says, Is there anyone who can escape? And then if you want to see that, turn to page 111 in Powers Translation and find out how to escape. And then it tells you how to escape. It tells you how the escape happens. Page, no, is it page 111? Yeah, it's page 111. Hearing these doctrines, they do not strongly adhere to the own being of the other dependent as being the character of the own being of the imputational. That's without the flashlight. With the flashlight, it's just the same. When they attend to this teaching, then the essential, no essence of arising. Ah, that's great. So then it goes, you know, and then you get to the place right here on page 111 and page 40 and also on page 31,

[26:58]

you get to the place where you have a wisdom that's not permeated by language, because of an insight that's not formed by language, because of wisdom freed from inclinations towards language. You're not bound by conventional designations and because of their understanding is free of predispositions towards convention. In this lifetime, they will have the ability to understand the ODC. You will be able to understand the other dependent character. And here's a huge difference in the translations. The Chinese says, as a result of your mind becoming free of conventional designations, as a result of becoming free of the lull of words, you will be able to extinguish a dependency. You will be able to destroy the pattern that arises dependent on other things. You'll be able to destroy the other dependent character.

[28:01]

Sounds different from understanding it, doesn't it? But actually, it's related because when you understand the other dependent pattern, you can destroy it. If you want to. You can, like, turn off existence and not be reborn. Or turn it on and be reborn. In other words, you're a bodhisattva who dies and doesn't come back, if you want to, if you're done. Or dies and comes back. Because you understand dependent co-arising. You understand dependent co-arising. That can happen when you're not under the lull of words. So, those two things. One shows how it happens. And the other one shows how it unfolds and becomes liberated. All the way to being able to understand dependent co-arising.

[29:03]

So that actually you can stop it. If you're in the mood. The person who can become free is a person who simply does not strongly adhere to the other dependent as being the imputational. Simple change of belief. But very difficult to attain, as you know. So now, here seems to be, now we have the story of Dungshan. The great master Dungshan. The wonderful person, Dungshan. The great compassionate Dungshan. The ancestor of our lineage. So the first part of his record is about a Bodhisattva.

[30:07]

A future Buddha. A future Zen master. Who is caught in the lull of words. He's a wonderful little boy. He's a wonderful young man. But he's caught in the lull of words just like the rest of sentient beings. And in particular, things start getting intensified in his story when he starts to concentrate on a story about a monk who is caught by a story. So we can watch how Dungshan is caught by a story about a monk who is caught by a story, how he becomes uncaught by the story. So at the beginning of studying koans we say, Attention everyone.

[31:08]

So he trained with a Zen teacher from the time he was pretty young. Until he was 21, I think. Yeah. And when he was 21 he took the complete precepts and then he sort of headed out. Which at that time, the golden age of Zen, it was traditional for the Zen monks to go off and visit the famous teachers. And so he visited the famous teachers. So first he visited Nanchuan, one of Matsu's great disciples. And basically Nanchuan was going to do a memorial service. You know how we do a memorial service the night before the day that the teacher dies?

[32:20]

And then we do a memorial service on the day of the teacher dying? So this was like they were preparing for the evening ceremony before the day of the actual memorial ceremony. And as they were about to do the ceremony Nanchuan says to the monks that were there, I wonder if Master Ma will come or not? And he was a little bit of a rhetorical statement. But anyway he was kind of inviting the monks to comment on that. And none of them came forward but this young man who I guess was 21 or a little bit over, steps forward and says he will come if he has a companion. And Nanchuan says, this guy is suitable for being cut and polished.

[33:27]

And the young monk says, don't crush what is good into something that is not good. It's a play on his name, which his name means good servant. So in other words, don't crush my potential by complimenting me. But anyway, word got out about him. So he was actually known as somebody who was recognized to some extent by Nanchuan. But Nanchuan did not say, this guy has become free of the net of conventional designations. But he's worthy of being cut. It's good to cut this guy, chop away on this guy. This is a good one. This one you'd probably be able to cut him up in little pieces and throw out the conventional designations pretty soon. So then he goes to visit another great Zen master named Guishan. And when he meets him, he said that he had recently heard a story about the national teacher Zheng.

[34:43]

National teacher Zheng is one of the disciples of the sixth ancestor. National teacher Zheng died approximately 32 years, 4 months and 3 days and 10 minutes before this happened. So he was already passed away. But the stories about him teaching were still circulating in the Zen world. So Nanchuan heard this teaching, was thinking about this teaching, was thinking about this story about a monk who was caught in his story, who was talking to the national teacher. So he was also caught in his story of this story. He was stuck in the story himself. And there's a story about the national teacher talking to this monk about... it's called the story of non-sentient beings expounding the Dharma.

[35:51]

That's sort of the name of the story. And Guishan says... Oh, Dengshan says, I have not yet comprehended the subtleties of this teaching. But what I'm suggesting, that to comprehend the subtleties of the national teacher's teaching is to not get caught by the story of the national teacher's teachings. And the national teacher's teachings are recorded as the way he tried to help the monk, not caught by the monk's story of what was going on. So Guishan says, can you, young teacher, remember the details that you've heard? And Dengshan says, yes I can. So here's the story of the national teacher.

[36:51]

A monk asked the national teacher, What sort of a thing is the mind of an ancient Buddha? And the national teacher says, Walls and tile rubble. Or wall-tile rubble. So probably he was sitting in his temple, and temples usually have walls around them, and they put little roofs on the walls with tiles, so that the rain doesn't wreck the wall. And sometimes the tiles fall off onto the ground and break. So he's probably looking out there and seeing some broken tile by the wall,

[37:56]

and said, that's the mind of Buddha. Now you know what that means, of course. Right? It means that when that tile is sitting there but not an object, the mind of the Buddha is not looking at the tile, the mind of the Buddha is that the tile is not an object. That's the mind of Buddha. So he says, this non-subject-object-split mind. He says it, actually being very straightforward. He's teaching mere consciousness to the monk. And the monk says, but the monk, see, he's totally caught. So he says, he thinks that that thing out there, the thing out there which doesn't exist, the out-there-ness,

[38:57]

he thinks that's what the teacher's talking about. So he says, well, isn't that non-living? And the answer, of course, is yes. Okay, well, the mind of Buddha can expound Dharma, right? Yes. So does this non-living thing expound the Dharma? And the teacher says, yes, it does. Ceaselessly, incandescently, uninterruptedly, He's just being straight, actually, answering the questions, but trying to help the monk break loose of this track he's on, but he's not coming loose. So then the monk says,

[40:16]

then why can't I hear it? If these things are expounding Dharma, why can't I hear it? And the national teacher says, you yourself haven't heard it, but this doesn't hinder the one who can hear it. And the monk says, what sort of a person acquires such hearing, or what sort of a person can hear? And the teacher says, the sages have acquired such hearing. And the monk says, can you hear it, Master? And the teacher says, no, I can't. And the monk says, if you haven't heard it, how do you know that non-sentient beings expound the Dharma? And the teacher says, fortunately, I haven't heard it. Okay?

[41:25]

Okay, you haven't heard it, so how do you know that they expound it? Caught? Does he then play with that, go into that and sort of like indulge that, explaining how, how this Buddha mind knows that sentient beings expound Dharma, even though he hasn't heard it? He hasn't heard them expounding it, but he can tell you that they do? Does he get into the conventional designations about how to explain that? No, he just says, fortunately, I haven't heard it. And he hasn't. I'm not lying. He hasn't heard it, because he's not a sage, and he can tell you that they're expounding it. No problem. No problem where? No problem where?

[42:28]

In Buddha's mind, there's no problem about that. In the mind which isn't infused with conventional designations, you don't have to get all tangled up in something to know about it. You can, matter of fact, know everything without having it an object which you grasp. But it's fortunate that he's that way. It's fortunate that I haven't, because if I had, I'd be the same as the sages, and therefore you would not be able to hear the Dharma I teach. And then the monk says, in that case, ordinary people would have no part in it, would have no access to it, because ordinary people need to use conventional designations to get at stuff, of course. But what they get at with conventional designations is just more conventional designations. So what's the point?

[43:29]

The monk doesn't say, what's it like when you do hear the insentient being that's bound to the Dharma? The monk doesn't say that. And if he did, what would I say? I'd say they'd be sages. That's what they'd be. If you hear them, you'd be a sage. Great, that's terrific. You get to be in the evening echo. It's not that bad being a sage. It's just that the Zen masters are trying to get you to be a Buddha. So the monk doesn't say, what happens after ordinary people hear the insentient beings expounding the Dharma? He says, what happens after they hear you? And then he says, they won't be ordinary people anymore. And there's only one alternative.

[44:34]

It's not that bad. You understand? Do you? You don't understand one alternative to sentient beings? You don't? Tell her, Diana, loud. Tell her loud, Diana. That wasn't loud, Diana. Loud. Loud, Diana. Loud, Diana. You've got to get used to saying things loud. Just give it one big loud. Okay, ready? One, two, three. Buddha. Good, yeah. You hear it? That's it. There's not like Buddhas, sentient beings, and then another thing. That's all there is. Didn't you know that? You didn't before this. You learned something during this practice period. There's sentient beings and there are Buddhas. That's it.

[45:36]

There's enlightened beings and unenlightened beings. There's not another category. Sages are sentient beings. They are sentient beings. They're not enlightened. Right? Hmm? Wrong? Wrong? Well, that's good. The monk said, according to what sutra does it say that non-sentient beings expound the Dharma? And there's quite a bit of variation on it, answer to this question in turn. One, this translation, so the monk says, what sutra is this in? He still doesn't get it. Okay, he's a poor guy. He's not, okay, all right, okay. What sutra is this in? I'm going to go read that one. I'm going to get this. This is a good monk

[46:39]

but he is really caught in words. He's getting turned around in the words. So he says, what sutra is this in? And then the teacher says, clearly you shouldn't suggest that what I'm saying is not part of the sutras. Or another translation would be, well, I wouldn't be a very nice guy if I was saying stuff that wasn't in the sutra. I mean, I wouldn't be a good Buddhist teacher if I was saying stuff that was like not in the sutras, would I now? And that translation is, of course it's not in the sutras. And that's the way Andy Fergen translates it. Obviously it's not in the sutras. Nor is it something the noble ones have said. So obviously it's not in the sutras. Or, gee, I wouldn't be very good if I was saying stuff that wasn't in the sutras. I think that the way of,

[47:41]

you know, it wouldn't be good if I wasn't like doing something that was part of the sutras. It's a little bit more like, what do you call it, ironic? Or something like that. Probably more that's the Zen style, like, oh, sorry. Anyway, but then, in all cases, after that different, quite different response to the question, in all cases he says, but anyway, it does say in the Avatamsaka Sutra that the earth expounds Dharma, that all living beings expound the Dharma. Throughout the three times everything expounds the Dharma, and sentient beings and rocks are not enlightened. And there will be a person who will appear several centuries from now who will state this and will be refuted. So that's the story. Apparently the monk never did sort of

[48:43]

break out of the bag of the lull of words. But people liked the story so they were saying it all over China, all over the Zen world anyway. Tungshan heard it and then he says, he completed his story and then he said to Guizhang, oh, darn it! I forgot my whisk. Ah! It's not your fault, it's not your fault, Diana. Well, I got this though. Anyway, so Guizhang said, after Tungshan finished the story, Guizhang says, we have that teaching here too. However, one seldom encounters someone who is capable of understanding it. Now when you have a plaque

[49:47]

outside the place that says, you know, this place is licensed to, you missed that lecture, that this place is licensed as a Zen practice place for attaining enlightenment, that doesn't necessarily mean that they have that teaching here. They have another sort of fancier sign for places that have this teaching of the national teacher. So we're negotiating for that license. So I'm not saying we have that teaching here. I can't even remember my whisk. So Tungshan says, I still don't understand clearly. Master, would you please comment? So Tungshan still, his mind is still infused with conventional designations. He's a great guy, but he's just a sentient,

[50:48]

poor little sentient being all tied up and afflicted. Guizhang then raised his fly whisk. Do you understand, Lian? That's very close. Very close. Do you understand, poor little Tungshan? No, I don't. Please, please explain, Master. The great Master says, Guizhang says, It can never be explained to you by means of the mouth of one born of mother and father. And then Tungshan says,

[51:54]

Does the Master have any contemporaries? Who might clarify this matter for me? We know there are some ancestors, right? But they didn't help. Anybody that could help me? And Guizhang says, Yeah. From here, go to Yuxian in Li Ling where you will find some linked caves. Living in those caves is a person of the way named Yunyan, Cloudy Cliff. If you are able to push aside the grass and gaze into the wind, then you will be able to find him worthy of your respect. So here we have another example of a great Zen Master teaching a future great Zen Master, but it's the conditions aren't ready. So he sends him

[52:54]

to somebody else who he thinks maybe those conditions will work. So far, we are looking at a story of a great teacher who was caught in conventional designations. All the while we're looking at it, are we caught by conventional designations? We're getting into the story, we're getting into the conventional designations, but are we watching our own conventional designations? How are they doing? Seeing the humor in it is a sign of loosening. So Lian's getting ready. Any minute now, you're going to be ready. Whoop! And then, Dengshan says,

[53:57]

well, what kind of guy is he? And Guishan said, one time they met, and Guishan said, once he said to this monk, once he said to this old monk, what should I do if I wish to follow you, teacher? And I replied, you must immediately cut off all outflows. And then Yunyan said, then will I come up to the Master's expectations? And this old monk said, you will get absolutely no answer as long as I am here. This is another phrase which is translated many ways. Another translation is, just don't tell anybody where I am. And then another translation is,

[55:16]

first of all, you can't say that I'm at this spot. This is Guishan recounting what kind of a guy Yunyan is. So, then Dengshan said goodbye to Guishan. Bye-bye, Guishan. Great Master, thanks a lot. And proceeded directly to Yunyan's. And he told Yunyan about the previous encounter, where he told the story and Guishan said, I have that teaching. And Dengshan saying, well, what about it? Raising the whisk. I don't get it. Please tell me more. Can't. See you later. Tells all that And then And then he asked Yunyan,

[56:28]

what sort of a person can hear the Dharma expounded by sentient beings? And Yunyan said, non-sentient beings are able to hear it. And Dengshan says, can I hear it, Master? Oh, sorry. Can you hear it, Master? What kind of people hear the Dharma expounded by non-sentient beings? Non-sentient beings are able to hear it. Sages are non-sentient beings? I guess so. Right? National teacher said,

[57:29]

sages can hear it. So I guess sages are non-sentient beings. Dile doesn't like that answer. Or maybe she does. It's just making a funny face. What kind of beings can hear the Dharma expounded by non-sentient beings? Yunyan says, non-sentient beings are able to hear it. Reb says, does that mean sages are non-sentient beings? Does it, Joan? You don't know? Are you getting trained? Is this your Confusion training? You better be. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Took a while for you to admit that. Oh! Was that kind? One to ten, how kind? Joan? I think it was very kind, but not just for me.

[58:29]

So it's above ten, probably. Yeah, those other people, they really got it, didn't they? We just set this up. We talked beforehand just to see what you're going to do. They fell for it, didn't they? Was that kind? Babadra, was that kind? Was it kind, Wendy? Ask Wendy. She'll explain to you. Don't forget to grab her, okay, when she asks. And punch her when she grabs you. In a kind way. Okay, so what kind of, who hear it? Non-sentient beings hear it. Can you hear it, Master? Yin-Yang replied, if I could hear it, I said, Yin-Yang replied,

[59:31]

if I could hear it, then you would not be able to hear the Dharma I teach. You all are teaching Dharma, but if you could hear sentient beings expound it, people wouldn't be able to hear your Dharma. Huh? I'm changing this all the time? If I could hear it, then you would not be able to hear the Dharma I teach. Didn't I say that? Oh, if I could hear the non-sentient beings teach, there's nobody sentient beings teaching here. If I could hear it, in other words, the Dharma taught by insentient beings,

[60:34]

if I could hear it, then you wouldn't be able to hear the Dharma I teach. Okay? And then Dung-Shan says, why can't I hear it? And Yin-Yang said, raised his fly whisk. Fly whisk. And he said, can you hear it? And Dung-Shan said, no, I can't. And then Yin-Yang said, you can't even hear it when I expound the Dharma, how would you be able to hear it when non-sentient beings expound the Dharma? Dung-Shan asked, in which sutras is taught that non-sentient beings expound the Dharma?

[61:35]

And Yin-Yang says, haven't you heard, haven't you seen it in the Amitabha Sutra where it says, water birds, tree groves, or waters, birds, trees and forests, without exception, recite the Buddha's name, recite the Dharma. Reflecting on this, this translation says, reflecting on this, Dung-Shan composed a verse. Another translation says, reflecting on this, the master had great insight. Dung-Shan had great insight. And Dung-Shan,

[62:39]

he had kind of an education, even when he was a little boy he had an education before he went to become a monk. So he actually, he's quite literate and can pop up poems without much effort. So he has this insight and he says, how amazing, how amazing. Hard to comprehend that non-sentient beings expound the Dharma. It simply cannot be heard with the ear. But when the sound is heard with the eye, it is understood. Very good. Now the kitchen is left, which is kind of sad for me. But the tents are still here. And the mako is still here. And any other ones here? And the fuku, fuku, fuku, where is the fuku? Oh, the fukuten is still here. That's pretty good.

[63:46]

I'm going to finish the story. So Yun-Yin and Tung-Shan hang out together. What has happened here in terms of classical Indian Buddhist teaching is that this guy who came in the lull of words, where his mind was superimposing the imputational upon the other dependent, which obscures the vision of the object of purification. The interactions with the teacher around this story, somehow, boom, boom, boom, a little bit he stopped grasping the fantasies and the conventional designations associated with those fantasies, with what's happening,

[64:47]

and he's got to see something with his ear, or hear something with his eye. The interaction with the teacher caused a consciousness to arise which indirectly, through this interaction, through this conversation, through this linguistic activity, which is happening still in the conventional world, still in the realm of using words to release him, a released consciousness saw and he awoke. But I propose to you that in this story, like in other ones, although this is a great insight, this is still inferential or dualistic. His practice is just really getting started now, and then he spends years with Dunshan, with Yunyan, continually reviewing and meditating

[65:48]

on the thoroughly established, which he now has a vision of. Now he's doing what the sutra says. By repeatedly, thoroughly, completely contemplating the suchness, he gets more and more familiar with it, more and more familiar with it, more and more familiar with it, more and more practice of not grasping the other dependent as being the conceptions which are floating around. More and more, more and more, more and more intimate, less and less dualistic. So he has seen the thoroughly established character, but at a distance, there's still some... He's even seen how the thoroughly established character is the fact that things are not out there, but there's still some distance in that vision, in that understanding. Finally, it's time... He feels that it's time for him to go,

[66:49]

to leave the womb of the Buddha, and he goes to his teacher, and he says he's going to go. And this final meeting is... Also, there's different translations of it. It's a very wonderful... I'll take it back. Here's the final meeting, various translations. So Dongshan said... He was preparing to leave, and Yunyan said, where are you going? And Dongshan said, although I'm leaving the master, I don't know where I will end up. Yunyan said, you're not going to Hunan, are you? And Dongshan said,

[67:52]

no I'm not. He said, are you returning home? Dongshan said, no. Yunyan said, sooner or later you'll return. Dongshan said, when the master has a fixed abode, I will return. Yunyan said, if you leave, it will be difficult for us to see each other again. Dongshan said, it will be difficult not to see one another. And just as Dongshan was going to leave, he said to Yunyan, in the future, if someone happens to ask me whether I can describe the master's truth or not, what should I answer them? And Yunyan had a long pause.

[68:53]

And Andy's translation is, he had a long pause, and said, just this is it. But the other translation, which I like better, is just this person is it. I looked up in the record that's in the Taisho, and it says, just this is it. But, I also read in another translation that just this is it is an abbreviation for just this person is it, which appears in some other records. And this expression, just this person is it, is a formal statement that a person makes in court. When you're charged with a crime, and if you want to admit that you're guilty,

[70:01]

you say, just this person is it. So, I feel that that's the expression that Yunyan was making. In other words, just this person is guilty. Just this person. That's what you should tell him my teaching is. Again, I suggest to you, this person, this Tungshan, has been meditating on suchness all along. He's still doing it. And the teacher says this, there's still some subtle duality in his mind with regard to the ultimate truth. His mind has not been completely purified in the process of meditating on suchness. His teacher is still trying to help him

[71:02]

and says, okay, just this person is it, is the final instruction. And Yunyan, and then he said, to Yunyan, then Yunyan said, worthy Liang, his name is Liangjia, worthy Liang, now that you have taken up this great affair, you must consider it carefully. I've given you the final instruction for purification, the final point to let go. Please take care of this. Tungshan continued to experience doubt and he walked and as I told you before, on our trip to China,

[72:08]

we went to the place where this river is. So he walked from Yunyan to this river. And we asked this Chinese scholar who was with us, how far is it from Yunyan's place to this river? And he said about 150 miles. So I think I've told you before, I used to think, he left the temple, he walked down the hill, there was a river, he crossed over the river, so like an hour and a half after the instruction, he crossed the river. But it wasn't an hour and a half. It was 150 miles of walking later, he comes to this river and as he's crossing the river, he saw his reflection in the water. He saw his reflection in the water and he had this time his great awakening. Was that kind or not?

[73:15]

Is that reflection kind? Was the water kind? And like I said, you know, Tung Shan, here comes a poem. He bumped this guy, poem comes up. So he says, expressing his joy of his great realization, he says, avoid seeking outside for that's far from the self. Now I travel alone, but everywhere I meet, and here you can say him, her or it, but really we're talking about everywhere I meet just this person. That's why I think it's better him or her rather than it. But anyway, everywhere I meet this person,

[74:20]

now it's exactly me. Now he or she is exactly me. Now I am not him. It must be thus understood to merge with suchness, to merge with suchness. He merged with suchness finally. So there is the story of the kindness of his teachers, Guishan, his teacher, the national teacher, his teacher, Nanchuan, his teacher, the river, his teacher, his reflection, all these things teaching him, teaching him, teaching him, helping him let go of his story. So the Soto Zen story of Great Enlightenment,

[75:25]

not so coarse, but still, where is the kindness? Where is the pivot where the interaction helps us let go? That's the place of not adhering to the other dependent character as being the fantasy of self. So there are many ways that we can interact together to help free ourselves from our stories. This is just one. And again, as I read this story,

[76:27]

as I read this story, as I think of this story, my effort is to not strongly adhere to my vision of the story as being the story. When you hear the story, can you let rest how the story appears to you? Because how it appears to you is not the story. It's a fantasy of the story. But we must use the fantasy and the conventional designations which go with the fantasy in order to access the story so we can test to see an opportunity to give the story a rest,

[77:32]

to give the clean a rest. And see suchness. Perhaps we will go on like this for a long time, either being caught and bound by conventional designations or practicing

[78:34]

the conventional designations being free of them or both. But not neither. I don't think neither. I think we're going to be caught or free or both. Actually, I like both best. But if I have to choose between them, I'll choose being caught because that's what free people choose. And the people who aren't free choose freedom. Because choosing freedom is being caught. But being willing to be caught, totally caught, is freedom. So you've got the caught part. What about the totally part?

[79:37]

Totally caught. Then you're free. And because we're caught, actually, we can't be totally caught. We're fighting it. We're getting flipped all over the place because we're caught. But when you can totally be flipped, you're free. When you can be a total love slave to conventional designations, like Maceo, total devotion and slavery to unstable, unreliable things, you're free. But it is required that you give up strongly adhering to them as the imputational in order to totally be caught. I know you already know this, but

[80:41]

I thought I might say this is a sample of the continuing process of Soto Zen in California. Which just happens to be the center of the universe. This is the place where people are most caught, most deluded. We're the leaders in delusion. Everybody else is trying to catch up with the latest, the cutting edge, gripping and grasping of conventional reality. They try to let go of the old versions of it that they're still holding on to. Whereas we're... We've got the freshest delusions here. Organic.

[81:43]

No pesticides. We don't care about the pests. We are the pests. Anyway, I probably should stop, right? May our intention equally penetrate every being and place with the true merit of Buddha's way.

[82:24]

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