now all Buddhas and all the ancestors who transmit the true Dharma have made it the true path of enlightenment to sit upright practicing in the midst of self-fulfilling awareness. And self-fulfilling awareness means the mind which is the way that all beings are embracing and sustaining each other. It's the mind, it's the interdependent mind. So it's not my mind or your mind, it's the mind which is the way your mind and my mind are living in peace and harmony.

[01:04]

And the form of sitting is a form that the Buddhas and ancestors have used to manifest the mind, which includes all of us and all the Buddhas together in perfect harmony, to manifest that great non-dual mind in the world of duality. So the sitting posture is a form, is a ceremony used to manifest the peace and harmony which is not apparent in the world of appearances. Do you want to translate that? Go ahead. Apparent. Visible.

[02:09]

So, you know, you hear about because grass, earth, trees, walls, tiles, pebbles, everything in the universe is engaged in Buddha activity. Everything is inconceivably helped by Buddha's guidance. And what is Buddha's guidance? Buddha is the way everybody is working together. The way everybody is working together You and I are being guided by the way we are working together with each other. I'm being guided by the way you're working with each other and the way you're working with me and the way we're working with you. I am guided by that.

[03:18]

You are guided by that. Everything is guided by that complete, perfect cooperation. Without gold. Without gold? If there's a goal in your mind, a goal may arise in your mind, and that goal which is arising in your mind is guided that goal is working together with everybody else's goals and some people maybe don't have a goal but all the people who do have goals and all the people who don't have goals are working together in the way that everybody's working together guides you when you and the way you are guided

[04:24]

is called Buddha's guidance, because Buddha is the way we're all practicing together. So when you have a goal, you are guided by all beings and all Buddhas to see the way to use that goal, to realize that everybody's helping you. And any thought you have in your mind You will be guided. You are being guided with all the thoughts you have in your mind. Anything that arises, any feeling, any experience, you are always guided by Buddha. But guided by Buddha doesn't mean some person separate from you. Buddha's guidance means the way everything's working with you to support you and help you Express that guidance through your thoughts of goals. And when you understand how it is that everyone's helping you, then you will deal with your goals differently than if you think, I have a goal, which I made by myself.

[05:42]

If I have a goal that is my goal, which I made by myself, then someone might say, you shouldn't have a goal. That's a bad goal. Get rid of that goal. Because you're acting like it's your goal that you made all by yourself. So we shouldn't have those. Yes. Right. That's a good goal. Well, that's your goal, maybe. Yes, it is, yes. In other words, I think it ought to be the goal of every disciple of Buddha. You think so? Yes, I do. So that's fine that you think so. Okay? Right? That's fine that you think so. But in addition to thinking that, which is, I think it's nice that you think that, but if Andrea thought that that was not true, I would say it's fine that she thinks that too.

[06:52]

if she disagreed with you. That would be okay with me because I would feel like you support her. So if you have that goal which you think is good and you actually maybe think other people have too and you might be right, but the important thing here is that you understand that you did not make that goal by yourself. you made that goal by yourself, or if you think everybody else should have that goal, even when they say we don't want it, then there's greed, hate, and delusion. So, whatever goal you have, if you understand actually that it is being supported by all beings, and your goals support all beings, even those who disagree with you. Your goals support people who have different goals. Then you have a different way of working with your goals.

[07:56]

Then you don't hit people over the head with your goals. They disagree with you, you see their disagreement as actually part of the creation of your goals. And you see how your disagreement, or your goals, are part of the creation of their goals. So that understanding helps you that people with different goals are actually supporting each other and are in harmony. But we can't see that with our eyes. It's not apparent. So we use forms like sitting to manifest in this we can't see. what seems impossible, that we're in harmony with each other. So freedom from greed, hate, and delusion is actually already the case, really.

[08:57]

But we can't. So how do we manifest freedom from greed, hate, and delusion in our life? Well, one way we use is a sitting posture. And then when you sit, you may notice, you might notice, you might notice, you might notice, what might you notice? Or you might notice that you think that you do it by yourself. Or you might think that not everyone's supporting you. Or you might think that you can decide to sit by yourself. Or you might think that you're doing your sitting by yourself. Now, again, when you think that, everyone supports you to think that, but you don't think everyone supports you to think that.

[10:02]

So you realize by doing the sitting, Or rather, you do the sitting and people ask you, you know, if you did that by yourself. And you maybe say, well, yes, of course I did. And then they say, no, you didn't. I helped you. And you say, no, you didn't. And then you can see that you don't yet how you're working together with everyone being manifested in the form of your sitting. So you use the form in that way. So the Buddha's main teaching is that everything that exists, everything exists, or what do you say, nothing exists or functions by its own power. You don't do anything by your own power. But that we do, which is okay.

[11:03]

And we don't think that we do by our own power either. Nothing we do, nothing we think, nothing about us is done by our own power. No thing exists and functions by its own power. We can't see how that's so with our dualistic eyes. So we use these forms as ways to test or to prove, to realize that we don't do anything alone. So we sit together in a group as a kind of hint or form to emphasize sitting what you think you could do by yourself and you do it not by yourself. You do it with others. the sitting that you do by yourself. There's no such sitting.

[12:05]

And if we think that we're doing the sitting by ourself, then that form helps us see that we don't see the harmony and peace of all beings manifested in our own sitting. Because we see it as something we do by ourself. Maura? Do you support? Yes, you do. Pardon? Yeah. When someone is manifesting as someone who has, for example, a goal to do harm to someone, to hurt someone, then you are responsible for that.

[13:15]

You're responsible. If I have an unkind... you are responsible for that unkind thought I have. And so am I. And so is everybody. Nobody has an unkind thought by their own power. An unkind thought doesn't happen by its own power. It happens because you support everything and so do I. You and I together support the entire universe, moment by moment. That's the implication that I suggest of dependent core arising. That's the implication, that's an implication of the mind which includes and nothing outside. No. You do not want violence.

[14:18]

You do not want wars. You want peace and kindness. That's what you want. And I support you to want peace and harmony. I support you. And everybody supports you to be the person you are who wants to be kind to people. But the person who wants to be kind to people supports... the people who are unkind in the sense that you don't want them to be unkind, but you are responsible for them to be unkind. You are conditioned for them wanting to be unkind. You know, you have some parents who want their children to be kind, and the children want to be unkind. But the parents are responsible for the children. The parents don't make the children want to be unkind themselves. all by themselves. It's not just the parents that make the child want to be violent, but the parents are a condition for the children.

[15:19]

Also are the neighbors. So am I. We all are a condition which people who have violent thoughts depend on. And there's no way that I can see to cut the connection between you and violent people. If you want to cut the connection between yourself and the violent people, wanting that cut is a form of hatred. It's a kind of avoidance or feeling negative about them and wanting to separate yourself from them. But the people who want to hurt people are people who feel separate from people. When you feel not separate, you don't want to hurt people. But even though you don't want to hurt them, even though the Buddha realized the mind of interdependence still was responsible for the people who did not realize the mind of interdependence.

[16:28]

The Buddha didn't say, all these people who are ignorant of the mind of interdependence, all these people, I have no interest in them, I don't care about them. No, the Buddha spent her life teaching the people who did not understand inner connection. That's who the Buddha taught, which is the normal people. And some of the normal people want peace, and some of the normal people want war. Or some of the people want war with those people and not war with these people. But if these people start acting like those people, they want war with these people. Some people feel like that. Buddha's responsible for those people, for everybody, no exception. So you don't want people to be unkind to each other. I don't want people to be unkind to each other, and I don't want people to be unkind to me. But when someone's unkind to me, they are supporting me to grow and live.

[17:33]

And I am responsible. I have requested them on some level. I've asked them and support them to be unkind to me even though I don't like and I don't want them to be unkind. We are part of everybody's skillfulness. And we are part of everybody's skillfulness. So that's what I propose to you, and I also say that, as it says in this teaching of Dogen, the way we're all helping each other does not appear within consciousness. And he means within dualistic consciousness. The way we're helping each other does not appear in the consciousness where there's dualities. Where you appear to be separate from me, You can't see how you're... When you feel like I'm separate from you in that way of seeing me in you, you can't see how... But you can hear the teaching which says you are being helpful to all the people you see as separate.

[18:47]

Or the teaching is you're not separate from any of the people that you think are separate from you. You're not actually separate, but you can't... This non-separation is not apparent. it doesn't appear within dualistic consciousness. But we are still being told about this, and then the question is, how do you realize it? So we use forms in the dualistic world to realize the non-dual world, which is beyond dualistic consciousness. The dualistic consciousness cannot reach the non-dual world. But the non-dual reality can illuminate dualistic consciousness. And we use forms to illuminate the illumination and to invite the illumination. And so we put a form out there like sitting posture, or we put a form out there like, let's see, what are other examples?

[19:54]

Precepts, confession practice, and attention to any kinds of forms. We put the form out there and then we see now what would that form look like if we were trying to bring peace and harmony into the world through that form. Yes? If I were an American soldier and I'm told to go to the If you what? If I'm told to go to the war. Yes. Finally, I have to go, or I refuse. And I don't really understand, is this a reduction, a realistic reduction, if I reduce it to either I go or I refuse?

[20:57]

No, it's okay. You can reduce it to that. It's not necessarily a dualistic reduction to say that. The dualistic reduction is that you decide by yourself. That's a dualistic reduction. That you, independent of me, decide to go. But of course you don't... I shouldn't say of course, but I suggest to you that the decision to go or not to go is not made by you alone. It's not even made by your understanding of the whole situation alone. So some people say, well, many American soldiers think, I don't think it's good to go to Iraq. It's a stupid thing to do, but I'm in the Army, so I follow orders. Because if we don't follow the orders, the country will fall apart. But this is a stupid war. Many of them say that, and their parents say that too. But for the sake of the Army, some of them think,

[21:59]

That's their understanding. But to think that they actually go by their own decision, that that's the only contributing factor, that's the reduction. When you make a decision, I would say the decision is a decision. But every person creates it. And when you see that, When you actually see that, you can't see anything anymore. You can't see the apparent decision. When you see the decision, you ignore the interdependence. The interdependence cannot be seen by the mind which sees and that decision as separate. But once again, I suggest to you that it's a matter of using forms to to practice this. So, for example, when it comes time to make a decision, do you think you make it by yourself?

[23:02]

And if you do, well, when it comes time to make a decision, you could use the form of making the decision with someone else. So I suggest to you and me that none of my decisions are made But if I don't talk to anybody about my decisions, even if I think that, it's hard for me to feel whether I really understand it. So even like deciding to take a trip, but certainly something big like going into the army, do you talk to your friends about it before you go in? Do you talk to your parents? Do you talk to your fellow practitioners? In order to, like, enact, manifest interdependence.

[24:09]

So we have this teaching in Soto Zen called Genjo Koan, which can be translated as the manifestation of the koan And the word koan can be analyzed as a combination of ko and an. And ko means public. And an means private. So my public sense is that you're kind of somewhat distracted by the insect. No, I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about Andy. He seemed to be... I don't know if he was listening to me. What? So there's a koan, right? You heard the word koan? So one analysis of koan is ko and an.

[25:15]

And ko means public, and an means private. Andy. Andy. But Andy, I say, is made by all beings. And there's a public Andy. You know, what we all think of you. And the koan is when they're brought together, the public and the private. But how do we manifest the unity, public and private of me, and my public life and your public life, and my private life and your private life? How do we manifest unity or identity or equality in the world of difference. So for example, when it comes time to go in the army or not, you publicly put off your private situation. The private situation is this person going in the army. You share that with the public.

[26:18]

And you can watch to see if you are like, have resistance to making your life a public affair, a public thing. Or do you actually feel that finding a way to make your life public is a way for you to manifest non-duality? And I think it is. Often when we take our private life and make it public, as we approach the situation, we feel it's inconvenient or embarrassing or dangerous. And these feelings sometimes stop us from doing anything with it. But if we go ahead and practice this way, we more and more give up our story that we're independent. and that we're not responsible for who we disagree with. So when you say you don't support someone who's violent, I would say you disagree with them, yes, but that you support them.

[27:31]

Just like you disagree with your children, but you support them. You completely support them, but you disagree with them. Like Nancy was saying, what about when you violently disagree with someone? I would say be careful of violently. Just completely is okay, but not violently. You don't violently disagree with people, actually. You actually support completely disagree with. But if you don't believe that, One way to approach, I shouldn't say believe that, but when you don't realize that, I should say, I'm not suggesting you believe that you're in perfect harmony with everybody. I would suggest ways for you to realize that you're in peace and harmony with everyone rather than believe it. And the way to realize it is to, for example, share with people who want to share with you

[28:37]

And with those who don't want to share, basically every decision you make, of course, that may be impractical, but you can check to see, are you willing to share every single decision? And when you see you're not, that's the key place to look. Now, don't believe you're in cooperation with this person. That's where you don't believe it. And if you stay away from that, then you're going to keep not, I shouldn't say not, that's where you don't realize it. I keep saying believe, but that's where you don't realize. When you realize you're really interdependent with someone, you have no problem sharing everything with that person. When you have a problem sharing something, that's when you do not realize, that's when you do not realize that you're interdependent, or put the other way, that's when you believe that you're independent.

[29:39]

What do we mean for interdependent? Independent. We believe that, generally. I'm not saying switch to believing that you're interdependent. I would say rather, given that you believe you're independent, how can you prove that that's false? How can you prove and realize rather than switching one belief to the other? And one exercise is just simply share the decision of going into the army with everybody. That would be one exercise you could do. And that's one of the exercises I do, particularly when I'm training. I ask them if they would like to do this exercise with me to test and realize that you don't do anything by yourself. Buddha says, you don't do anything by yourself, nobody does anything by themselves.

[30:42]

Now test it by formally discussing potentially every action with others. And I discuss it with the public. I make a public discussion. You again said that. You said, I have to make a decision. Okay, good. Okay? But sometimes, even... So you're not saying that it makes the decision easier. It's only to realize your... You're not independent. Often you discuss it and it just creates more confusion and you'll know less than before. Yeah, it's okay.

[31:43]

Yeah, it's okay. It's not that you talk to the other people so that the decision will be made. You talk to other people to realize peace and harmony. Decisions are made up here in the world quite frequently, as you may have noticed. But do those decisions, does the process by which those decisions are made manifest the separation of beings? And the answer is sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. The point is to manifest peace and harmony with every decision in your life. Whereas other people make decisions to not go in the army, but those who do not go in the army do not necessarily realize peace and harmony because they may think that they made the decision not to go in the army by themselves.

[32:50]

Someone else might make the decision to go into the army with everyone. or I should say that anyone else to go in the army might be made with everyone and might manifest peace and harmony, and that person might go into the army and do a lot of good in the army because they continue that practice when they get in the army. They learn how to get into the army and be in the army and get out of the army and manifest the teaching that beings are helping each other all the time. And to have a lot of people in the army who understand how everybody's helping each other might make the army nonviolent. Some people stop. I mean, some people in the army are part of the process where in the army, in the war, violence is ended, is stopped, is not done.

[33:56]

Some people in the army do not kill anybody and they actually work together with other people not to kill people in the army. It's possible to be kind in the army and it's possible to be cruel. Kindness basically manifests from understanding that we're already being kind to everyone and everyone's already being kind to us. And if I want to understand that, then I can't afford not to invite everybody and say, okay, please join me in this because if I really want to realize that you're being kind to me, then I invite you into my life. And including that if you get into my life, I might find things more confusing. If I don't let anybody into my life, I'm not very confused. Like, okay, now I got it straight.

[35:03]

I'm going to do this. Don't ask anybody now because I might get unsure. And sure enough, if you do, if you've got some idea and you ask somebody, they might say, I don't agree. I feel unsure. But you're moving towards realizing peace and harmony by asking them. Yes. I'm not able to decide to manifest peace and harmony or even to decide to share it. Exactly. You're not able to want to manifest peace and harmony. You can't even want to by your own power. When you want to manifest peace and harmony, it's only because everybody assists you who wants that. And when you don't want it, actually, everybody assists you in not wanting it.

[36:07]

But when you realize that, you start to realize the thing which you said you didn't want. I get more and more the impression that there's some sort of predetermination taking place, that we only think that we already have a solution, that we are separate beings, and we think that we are made. Really, the decision is being put into us and manifested through us by some sort of predetermined role, which we can't influence.

[37:10]

Not predetermined, but what is it called? I hesitate to mention this, but modern neuroscience points out that people, that the decisions which you experience were made before you were aware of them. So you actually, your brain makes certain decisions and then the brain tells you, once a decision is made, the brain tells you, oh, this is your decision. You say, okay, I made the decision. The brain makes the decision by a very complex negotiation with many causes and conditions. It's not predetermined. It's just that your body and mind actually unconsciously make decisions before you are consciously even aware of them. And then you're told, you're told, you made this decision. But it's not predetermined. But even your brain doesn't make this decision all by itself. It makes it in concert. in perfect concert with the entire universe.

[38:11]

And then it's decision, but the decision is not made by the brain itself. It's made together with the rest of the body. The decision in relationship and concert with all bodies. It's not predetermined though. It's interdependent. And then this interdependent concert is then rendered into a verdict along with a message saying, you made this by yourself. Our nervous system did it interdependently, but it tells us that we did it independently. And the nervous system also says, believe this, this is true. But the nervous system didn't do this by itself. It did it by a complex process of interdependence with the whole universe. And also, the making up, the story of doing things by yourself was also created over time. incalculably complex process of evolution that made us dream of being independent. So humans, not predetermined, but we are inclined towards and we have because of our past history to imagine that we're independent of each other.

[39:26]

So you hear the teaching of interdependence, but you're strongly habituated to imagine independence And so that's going quite well. The imagination of independence is going quite well. The hearing of interdependence is going quite well. But what about the realization of interdependence? The realization of independence is also not happening very well. Nobody is realizing independence. You're not realizing independence. You can, but not so. But when you try to realize independence, what is being realized is a sense of strife and conflict and fear and pain. That's being manifested because of believing in independence. That's going to change everything. We don't need any more problems, do we? We've got enough. But what's not realized enough is the interdependence.

[40:29]

So what forms realize interdependence? And I'm basically saying the basic thing is pango. That's the basic thing. So when I was having lunch with Vanya and Berndt, Vanya said, he said, I had to laugh when I heard that you went to Argentina to practice. And then he asked me sort of what got me into tango. And I said, well, first of all, something to do with my wife. Second of all, to do something, to be a beginner at something, to do something I'm not good at, where I really feel like, well, actually, I already do things I'm not good at. Some of the things I'm not good at, I don't feel like a beginner. And the other thing is I want to do something where I'm not only not good at it, but I'm a beginner at it.

[41:33]

But the third, another reason which I'm emphasizing here is I want to do something that I can't do by myself. Because we have the expression in English, it takes two to tango. Tango originated in Argentina, but it doesn't work as well to say it takes dos to tango. Two to tango is nicer. I think. Anyway, you can't tango by yourself. That's the main point. You cannot breathe by yourself. It takes two for you to breathe. You can't practice Buddhism by yourself. It takes two to practice Buddhism. You can try to practice Buddhism by yourself, but that's not Buddhism. Buddhism is what you do. And one other person is enough to start with. that you do not any long, you start to practice as though you did your practice together with somebody else. And any time you feel you're practicing by yourself, you stop and confess, I'm not practicing.

[42:42]

Like when you're practicing tango, you go out there and do it by yourself, you say, this is not tango, because there's nobody else around. But people think they can live their life all by themselves. Well, no. You can't, but you think you can, yes. And people think they can, yes, but it's not so. So how about doing a little drama, make your life into a drama which enacts, which manifests that it takes two to live your life. Don't do anything alone anymore, and if you do, just say, I think I did that alone. I think I made that decision by myself. I think I brushed my teeth by myself. I think I flushed the toilet by myself. I confess. I don't really understand this Buddhism, doing things together. I think I do everything by myself. I confess that. But I'm also doing this dancing with somebody to get over that.

[43:43]

And I don't just go grab them and dance with them. I say, would you like to dance? And if they say no, I say, oh, would you reconsider? Or I feel hurt. Because I don't think that when they said no, it was really a harmonious thing. I don't see it. Rather than, oh. When you ask someone to dance and they say no, that's as much the dance as when you get up and dance. Because you could not have that experience without asking them and them saying no. The person, she helped you feel the way and be who you are. But you also helped her by asking her. So, in every aspect of practice, precepts, sitting, bowing, working, meeting the teacher, studying, practice you're doing, do you do it alone? Making decisions, do you do it alone? Yeah, okay, that's not practice.

[44:47]

Anything you do alone is not practice. Or rather, it's practice, it's the practice of delusion, it's the practice of ignoring the Buddha's teaching, and it's the practice of suffering. Everything you do alone is the practice of making this world a miserable place. Everything you do together is manifesting peace and harmony. And it's very good to do things together and support people who you support. Like your children. Like your parents. Like your spouse. Like your dance partner. Like your teacher. Like your student. These are people you disagree with and these are people you support. And these are people that support you. So now, enact that. Bring it into the world of appearance.

[45:50]

You can't see how you're working together with everyone. But make the world of appearance look like that and watch how they don't want to do it the way you do it. Let's enact it this way. No, I don't want to do it that way. But working that out and being patient with that is sponsored by the world of peace and harmony. Yeah. It's my brain. It's your brain. And I'm supporting this brain. If you're convinced? That I made a decision independently. Yeah. Then I taught other living beings I heard you tell that I cannot but support.

[46:51]

That's right. If you make a decision and think you made it by yourself, you actually are supporting other beings when you think they didn't help you make the decision. You really are supporting them, but you can't see how you support them. That's right. You have to support. Because if you are supporting, and if people are supporting you, and you don't think they're supporting you, you will suffer and you will be unkind. There is no possibility for me to be unkind and unhappy?

[47:55]

No, no. There is a possibility for you to appear to be unkind and to appear to be cruel. But it's just an appearance, actually. You're not actually unkind. You're just apparently unkind and apparently cruel and apparently suffering and apparently unhappy. You are, but you are apparently You are actually unhappy. Your apparent unhappiness is real unhappiness because the only kind of unhappiness is apparent unhappiness. But apparent unhappiness is enough unhappiness. Yeah. And if you really feel and understand, if you really understand that everyone's supporting you in your unhappiness, you will be free of that unhappiness. If you really feel like your unhappiness is helping everybody, you would be happy to be unhappy.

[48:58]

You would. If I said to you, Renata, if you would just be unhappy for ten minutes, a hundred people in Iraq would be relieved of suffering during that ten minutes. You would be happy to do it. Wouldn't you? I wouldn't believe you. You wouldn't believe me? Well, there are cases that when women deliver babies, they're going through pain, and they know that the pain will make it possible for their baby to get out of their body. and it's very painful, but they know that if they will go through this pain, this baby will be able to be delivered, and the baby will get out of this tight place which they're in right now. The baby wants to get out of it. It's very difficult, but they put up with it, and putting up with that pain for the welfare of this other person is the greatest happiness that some people ever know.

[50:10]

But it's a happiness which you realize you're doing in cooperation with this baby. And the baby is supporting you to have the experience. And your body is supporting you, and the human evolution is making this all work this way. And you accept it, and you're uncomfortable and unhappy in a way, but it's no problem. And it's a great moment. This is possible. But if you think, you're deciding to have this pain all by yourself, and you're delivering the baby by yourself, then you're miserable and you just want lots of drugs. So you don't have to go through this. And so that's okay, you take the drugs, the baby comes out, okay. And then you can, all the while you think, I delivered the baby, it's mine, nobody helped me. But then when the drugs wear off, you feel miserable because you think you did the whole thing by yourself. And now you've got this baby that you think you made by yourself, and you think you're independent of the baby, and the baby's born thinking it's independent of you, and then now you've got a lot of suffering again.

[51:19]

You don't realize that you and the baby are supporting each other. Everybody's supporting the baby and the baby and everybody's supporting you. You don't realize that. So you're apparently miserable with no redemption, with no relief. Afraid. And then other things, even worse can happen. You can hate and be greedy and all those other things can happen too. Because we don't understand that we're working together with everybody, and everybody's working with us. But we can't see that, so we have to demonstrate it in the world, and we're doing it right here. We're working together. In this world, we're dramatizing working together. We're setting up forms that none of us are in control of. I'm responsible for the forms of this retreat, aren't I?

[52:24]

Do you understand that I'm responsible? You don't? Are you serious? Am I responsible for you acting that way? Huh? What? He's my joker. Am I responsible for the forms of this retreat? Marina, am I responsible? Pardon? Co-responsible? Yeah. But am I also responsible, just plain old responsible? Yeah. I think that native English speakers also use responsible in the way of uni-responsible. I'm responsible for the forms people think means I'm responsible and you're not. It's a common understanding of responsible. That I'm responsible and if anything goes wrong with the forms, I get blamed.

[53:27]

That's where a lot of people are. I'm saying, am I responsible? And the answer is yes. Are you responsible, Marina, for the forms of this retreat? Yeah, we are together responsible. Am I in control of the forms of this retreat? No. This is the joker, right? This is the joker. He's pretending to be the joker. He's dramatizing the person who thinks that I'm in control of this retreat. But am I in control of this retreat? And the more forms we have, the more you will see that I'm not in control of this retreat. If we have no forms, you could say, he controlled the whole retreat. But if we have more and more forms, you'll see that I'm not in control of the retreat because the forms are not happening the way they're supposed to, right? But it's not just me that's not in control of the retreat. None of you are in control of the forms of this retreat. None of you are in control.

[54:31]

All of you are responsible. All of you are responsible for the forms of this retreat. I say to you, how do you find out that you're by having the forms and trying to together enact them? Or try to do them by yourself. Either way, you will realize that we're doing them together. And you will realize that you don't believe it for a while, or you don't understand it. I hesitate to say believe. You understand for some time that we're doing them together. To me, the more we do them, the more we understand we're doing them together. Yes. Excuse me. By the way, please go to the bathroom any time you need to. You cannot... It's impossible to sew a rock suit without help, without having somebody else do it with you.

[55:38]

That's right. That's right. And you can't not sew a rock suit without people's help either. You didn't realize that yet, though. So all of you people who haven't sewn rock suits... You're not sowing rocks is something you have not been able to do. You can't receive Buddhist precepts by yourself. Everybody has to support you. But you cannot also wait and not receive them without everybody's support. I support everybody that doesn't receive the precepts, and I support everybody that does. I support everybody that doesn't, and everybody that does. And so are all of you. And the way to realize it is to use the precepts. Use the form of the precepts. So I didn't expect that when I came to practice Zen, but I'm totally... No.

[56:41]

Even got my name on the bottom of a book about the precepts. I'm totally into the precepts and all of you are supporting me to be that way. And I didn't want to be that way. I'd never thought I would be, but I am because you made me. Responsible for my situation of being into this precept business, I am responsible. But I'm not in control of it and neither are you. You're responsible for making this guy. I'm responsible for making this guy. I'm not in control of this guy and you're not in control of this guy. And the more forms we have, the more you'll realize that. Where's the room for freedom? Because there is a constant possibility of freedom.

[57:45]

Interdependence does not mean overdetermination. Things are determined by causes and conditions, but by that very fact, you can't find them and put them into bondage. So things are actually free of all the forms which they're participating with. Just to answer, I think that's a very interesting question because, of course, the way we usually understand this term, freedom, experience of independent return to the existing person, not the impersonal person. Yeah. This, of course, is constant. That type of freedom doesn't exist, right? The concept of independent person exists. Exists, yeah.

[58:47]

Or realize it. Yeah. Some people do experience it. People have the idea that they are experiencing personal freedom. Some people do, like they think at the end of the retreat they'll feel personally free of the retreat. the other then must pay this experience. Exactly. Yes? Well, I always have been wondering about what the ego is and how it arises, where it comes from, and it's a whole other issue. It's not non-existent. It's illusion. Illusion is not non-existent. So when you say your nervous system tells you that you've made a decision and you, your ego, believed it, what is that?

[59:59]

I didn't say what you just said. I didn't say that the ego believes it. You said your nervous system tells you. Yeah, but I didn't say it tells the ego. Well, by you, I mean your conscious self believes the message it gets. It would be like, there's you over there, okay? It would be like, we made a decision here. to do something, and then we send a representative over there to tell you the decision. We tell you that it's your decision, and also we tell you to believe that it's your decision. It's like that. It's an interdependent thing. You're an independent being who sometimes believes that she's independent.

[61:05]

That's who you are. How do you mean, how? I think it arises by the causes and conditions of life. You know, if you like, what is that? I was looking at something like, I had this little vision of somebody's face. I don't know, it was quite recently. Somebody's face, and there were like in the room there's lots of animals and plants floating around in the air around here. All right? You know what I mean? Some you can see and some you can't, but with microscopes you can see that there's, right around your head, there's many, many living beings flying around, and some of them are landing on your skin, Partly because when I was swimming by the lake, I was bitten by something that was biting me, and I couldn't see what they were.

[62:08]

But I actually have little sores now from where they bit me. But I couldn't see them. But all the time there's little beings flying around your head trying to bite you and get in and eat you. But we have also antibodies which say, no, go away, come back some other day. And one of the definitions of self is the mechanism in the cell by which it tells what belongs inside and what doesn't. And like in the fine little root hairs of redwood trees, in the selves of the root hairs, The redwood tree has a way to identify whether the root hairs of itself, when its own root hairs meet, it has the DNA in the other root cell to see if it's a different redwood tree or the same redwood tree. It can tell the difference between its own and another one.

[63:12]

It's the kind of self that it has to identify its own and another. And we actually, more than redwood trees, we believe that that actually exists, that that separate self exists. But it's kind of like, if you look at a biological world, you can see that the idea of independent self is actually a natural outgrowth of life. It has a certain power and usefulness. However, it's an illusion. Illusions sometimes make you powerful. It's difficult to dominate other forms of life if you feel you're interconnected with them. It's difficult to dominate other people if you feel interconnected with them. If you feel interconnected with them, maybe they'll dominate you. So forget interconnection, because then you people might dominate me.

[64:16]

If I opened up to how much I depend on you, And how much you support me, I might be overwhelmed by that. So forget that and I'm going to be independent and I can dominate you. And sure enough, if you have somebody who feels independent and somebody who doesn't, that person is going to be able to dominate them in their mind and protect themselves from being overwhelmed by this person. So I think it's kind of like you can make various stories like that. I don't think they're really true, however, but since you asked, I would tell that story. But I don't think that's really true. It's just a story about how we came to have a story that we're independent. That story, I've got another story which says, believing that story, when I believe that story, I feel uncomfortable and afraid of other people, even people who I love very much, I'm afraid of when I feel separate from them. And that can be observed in the duality of health, that when you feel separate from people, you're afraid.

[65:24]

And when you start to open to non-separation and enact it, you still are afraid, but you get more and more used to enacting non-separation. And when you get used to enacting non-separation, you notice you're more and more fearless in the interactions. At first when you think, what if I would like to share my decisions with this person? Then they might expect me to share them in the future, but maybe that will be too difficult. So then you don't do it. So then you stay afraid to share. But if you actually do share them, even while you're afraid, and they do start to confuse you and so on, but you realize that although it was actually more difficult this way in a way, you're less fearless. So if you stay away from people, you will be able to turn your suffering down a little bit and keep it under kind of like this muted form. And if you start opening up, the suffering might kind of increase.

[66:27]

But I'm saying this way is the way to freedom. The other way, you just stay in your little box, or we stay in our little boxes, which don't exist, but we feel like we do. I said this the other day, you know, someone came to see me, and I felt like they were really angry at me for being kind of happy about how kind everybody was to me. And they were kind of angry at me for being happy about how kind I am to everybody else. Because actually, I feel good when I feel like I am, when I realize it, when I kind of feel it's true. And I feel like when I really think it's true that people are kind to me, I feel happy. But if I show that happiness, if I let anybody know that I'm happy, some people attack me because they don't know the person who's getting all this love and who's feeling like he's giving love. So one of the consequences of being happy

[67:29]

And showing it is that you're very likely to get attacked. So if you're happy, keep it hidden. Because if you show it, some people will hate you for various reasons. Like, who do you think you are to be happy? Or what makes you think you're helping everybody? Or what makes you think everybody's helping you? This kind of thing can happen to you. So it's kind of dangerous to tell people how happy you are when you're happy. If you tell people you're miserable, they don't immediately attack you. However, that way doesn't work indefinitely either because sometimes they just get sick of you being miserable and they kick you anyway. But when you're really happy, it's not a lie. Better not show it. But I say show it. Show it and get in trouble for it. I say when you're grateful, tell people you're grateful and get in trouble for it.

[68:34]

And watch them see that when you express your gratitude and they attack you, they get to see, see what happens? Being grateful is dangerous. I'm not going to be grateful. But then they see you're grateful again and again and again and gradually they try it too. And they find out you can get through being grateful. It's okay. You can survive. And you can also survive being miserable. Matter of fact, you can be miserable for a really long time. Really long time. You can be miserable a long time. And you can also be happy, though. But in the case of being miserable, you'll be miserable and people will attack you. In their case, you'll be happy and they'll attack you. You'll be happy because if everyone's supporting you and they attack you, you understand that their attack is supporting you. You don't feel insulted by the attack. You think it's darling. You're grateful.

[69:38]

And you grow from being attacked. In fact, you are growing from being attacked right now. I'm attacking you right now. And you're growing. Enact it. Find ways to put it into an action. Another word which I wanted to bring up earlier but I forgot, and that is commitment. It's not just to enact it, but commit to enact it. Commit to enact forms which manifest the union of public and private. I've been telling you private things in public as a way to try to manifest the koan of my public life and my private life, my life with you and my life which is just me individually, the individual that's made by you with the

[71:01]

way you make me. I've been trying to do that by putting my private out for the public, to try to manifest the koan, to realize the koan. I've been trying to do that. And I'm committed to do that. And I offer to you the issue of committing to put yourself into forms that will have the potential to manifest interdependence. Let's see. I see Timo's hand, but Mikael had his hand up before, right? It's gone? Went away? Yeah? A commitment? Yeah? Did I make a commitment to that? Did I? Because he said so?

[72:04]

No, he reminded you of the commitment that you made. Yeah, I didn't know that I made it, but... I said it. I said what? You said, I commit. I did? Yeah. Ah, cool. Well, it makes you remind me. I forgot. But now that you say it, it sounds very familiar. And even if I didn't, I still think that's a really nice commitment. preparing...

[72:59]

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