You know how it felt? It felt real. It wasn't like fun. It just felt like real. Yeah, it wasn't like getting high. It felt just like real. And I guess I was attracted to something that was real. Tension for Anderson on his first meditation experiences. Rob Anderson is an American Zen teacher and author of Zen Buddhism. Over 50 years ago, he left Advanced Study in Mathematics and West Ham Psychology to practice with Shunryo Suzuki at San Francisco Zen Center. A couple of years later, Suzuki Roshi ordained him as a priest and gave him the Dharma name Tenshin Zenki. Naturally real, the whole works. in 1983 and served as abbot of San Francisco Zen Center for nine years. Together with his wife, he lives at Green Gulch Farm. In August 2016, I attended as a sheen led by him a week of intensive meditation in the countryside of Sweden. After an apartment in Stockholm and spoke about his life, the Bodhisattva practice and the importance of questions.

[01:07]

I have to warn you, the sound quality isn't that great. I'm sorry for that. Nevertheless, his answers are worth listening to. I'm Anne Voigt in conversation with Anderson. In 1967, you moved from Minnesota to San Francisco in order to practice at the San Francisco Zen Center. Sitting on the sandal, the first thing you saw of your future teacher, Suzuki Roshi, were his feet. And your immediately thought was, it can teach me Zen. At that time, did you know already that this includes the Bodhisattva practice? No. I saw examples. of what I now see as bodhisattvic activity. For example? For example, there was a monk who was living in a small house, I think maybe on a mountainside, and it was a full moon night, and he heard some sounds outside.

[02:13]

It sounded like something coming slowly through the hillside, maybe like, sounded like maybe a thief, like not an animal, but a human. Before the thief came into the house, he took off his clothes and threw his clothes out the window and all his possessions and said, Here, you can have all my possessions. And I'm sorry, I can't give you the... I think that was bodhisattvic activity, but I just thought of it as really cool. I thought that was, that's so wonderful. To not just give the thief, but wish the thief, you could give the thief even more. I thought that was, I wanted to be like that with the thief. And I would say now that that person probably was a bodhisattva, but I didn't know the word bodhisattva. So what did fascinate you about Zen in the beginning?

[03:16]

Why Zen? I mean, at this time, when you were interested in meditation practice, quite a lot of meditation practices started to develop in the United States. But I didn't know about them, actually. So why San Francisco Zen Center? I remember I saw some pictures of Buddhists. And, of course, I already knew Christianity somewhat. I thought, you know, I appreciated Jesus, but I didn't see... I appreciated Jesus' teachings, but I didn't see a way of life that he was demonstrating. I couldn't see miracles as a way of life. And his teachings were good, but I didn't see his... I didn't understand in my young years the teaching of Christian way of life. So I just didn't see anything. And then other forms of Eastern religion I didn't really know about. And I saw this magazine series on world religions one time, pictures of different world religions, and there were different pictures of Buddhism, like pictures of Southeast Asian Buddhism,

[04:28]

There were pictures of Tibetan Buddhism, and there were pictures of Zen Buddhism. And pictures of Southeast Asian Buddhists were mostly pictures of... kind of orange robes, and lay people, and it didn't move me. And the pictures of the Tibetans, a lot of the pictures were very colorful, like people with masks on and dramatic ceremonies, also didn't move me. And Zen were like pictures of someone just sitting in an empty room on tatami mats, looking at a garden. And I just thought that was beautiful. I just was touched by the imagery of human simplicity and peace that those pictures conveyed. And then one of them, these pictures of this person sitting, underneath it said, in deepest thought.

[05:33]

And I thought, yes, if you're in deepest thought, your body probably is beautiful too. So I just thought the image of sitting on the earth or on the floor, upright, still, calm, in deep thought, I thought, how lovely, I appreciate that. And then I found out also that between that beautiful way of sitting meditation and some of these stories about these amazing, compassionate people beings, these Zen people. Often Zen monks, but not necessarily just monks, could be lay people. There was a lay person sitting in meditation. So I found out there was a connection between these people who could act in these very beautiful ways in situations where people were potentially giving them a hard time, and they were able to respond

[06:39]

and generously, and that these people that could respond that way had done this meditation practice, had trained at that. So I saw a connection between the meditation practice and training, and being able to respond to difficult situations with pleasure and humor and flexibility and generosity. In other words, it wasn't just good luck that they acted that way, they trained. And then I found out that all these many stories I read that inspired me, that all these people did practice. that it was a basic shared practice among all the different Zen teachers. Even though the styles varied, there were some similar practices, which that picture showed. So then I tried to start doing sitting practice. So how did it feel in the beginning?

[07:41]

It was nice, but it was... You know how it felt? It felt real. It wasn't like fun. But it just felt like real. Yeah, it wasn't like getting high. It felt just like real. And I guess I was attracted to something that was real, as opposed to something that was exciting, interesting, whatever. And I started reading some more about Zen at that time. And somehow it struck me after not too long that it would be good to do this kind of exercise on a regular basis. Not once a month, or once a year, or just to have your picture taken. But maybe like every day, maybe? And maybe morning and night, who knows?

[08:43]

but that we would do it on a regular basis, and not just because you felt like it, but because it was like brushing your teeth, or exercising, or sleep, or eat. It's kind of like spiritual food. I tried to be regular, but I really had a hard time being regular, because I had a lot of other things to do, that I had to do, or that I got paid to do, or that I like to do, but this was something which nobody would care if I did. And I was doing it all by myself, so I noticed I was having a hard time being regular, and I thought maybe I should be. I got the impression that these people, it was part of their daily life. Just like being compassionate was part of their daily life. And at some point it struck me that Maybe if I was in a place where there was a group of people doing this on a regular basis, that that would be very supportive, and I would be able to be regular.

[09:54]

And I heard about the Zen Center, and I went to the Zen Center in San Francisco. And this time, was it popular, San Francisco Zen Center? Did people know about it? People were getting to know it more and more, yeah. I think interest in Buddhism was steadily growing in the 60s. So this is 67. And I think the hippie movement, kind of like people thought of that starting in San Francisco, And then there was another movement before that called the beatniks. And the beatniks, a lot of them were interested in Buddhism. So like there's that book by Jock Kerouac, one of the beatniks, called Dharma Bums. And so there was Buddhism in general and Zen in particular among the beatniks. And you had read all of that? I read some of it, yeah. And so I read something. I heard about Zen. That prepared the ground for not just me, but for people to know about Zen.

[10:56]

And there's also the books by Alan Watts. A lot of people... The knowledge that this thing called Zen was out, growing in the 50s and then more in the 60s. And also Alan Watts came to my college, my university in Minnesota, and gave a talk around that time. I was in. I went to the talk, and yeah, I enjoyed it. And I remember I had my advisor, and then there was another psychology advisor, and there was another psychology professor, and I was in a room with them, and one of these professors was the leader of the Bach Society at the university. And the other professor said to the Bach Society professor, speaking about the visiting person Alan Watts, He said, Alan Watts is to Zen what you are to Bach.

[11:57]

So, you know, they're both popularizing some great thing, right? So, there were various things that were making me and a lot of people aware of Zen. So that talk that Alan Watts gave, the auditorium was full of people that were interested to hear about Zen from a man who lived in San Francisco. who grew up in England. And so many different things were coming together, and many people were hearing about Zen and other forms of religion, of Eastern religion. And I was one of them that heard. And then again I read these stories, and then the other thing I felt was that things were happening when I was sitting, and I didn't know if they were good or bad. I mean, I sometimes say, I didn't know if I should be seeing a psychiatrist or go on TV. Because interesting things were happening. And I didn't care too much what it was, because it seemed real, but I thought it'd be nice to be able to talk to somebody who'd been doing this practice for many years, and say, this is what's happening, this is okay, it's good.

[13:13]

And so I also heard there was a group in San Francisco, and that there was a teacher. And so I went to visit, and kind of looking at the environment, and looking for the teacher, and I found the environment. There were students sitting there, and it made it very easy to sit, just like I thought it would. And there was a teacher, and I felt like, yeah, I think so. I think this person... be just pretty much what I need. Even though the way he was wasn't the way I expected, I expected Zen masters to be a little more... What? A little bit more impressive. And he didn't seem... Not too impressive, no. But like... What would have been impressive? Like big and very handsome maybe, I don't know what. Big and interesting looking and a lot of charisma.

[14:16]

But so much that way, he was not a big man and didn't come on real strong, kind of mild. But it seemed somehow, yeah, just right. And I kept feeling that way. And so then, after that first meeting, I went back thousands of miles away, and I kept thinking about the Zen Center, and somehow I decided I'm actually going to move there, and live near this group, and be near this teacher, and make Zen practice the next phase of my training. because I actually wanted to get trained. And I felt like I was getting training at the university, but it was mostly my intellect. It wasn't my sense organs. It was like my mind organ was getting trained. My ear organs and my eyes organs and my tongue organ and my touch organ, they weren't getting trained.

[15:20]

I was in psychology, and I was training animals. I was training the bodies of animals. I was training their bodies and their senses. But I was just looking at them with my mind, more or less. So I wanted a practice that was more... And actually, one more story is that I had this wonderful, brilliant advisor, a different advisor, a kind of renaissance man, And he was very nice to me, and he actually called me the swami. The swami? Yeah, because he knew about my interest in, my growing interest in Asian philosophy, which I bring this up. So he kind of started calling me the swami. In seminars I would bring up certain perspectives like that. Anyway, he's very nice, very smart, And one day I was walking near the University of Michigan, and I walked by a McDonald's, and he was in there.

[16:24]

And he was bent over his... He was a tall Dutchman, and he was bent over his hamburger with his long, tall body and his big head bending down to the hamburger in his hand. He looked kind of in the shape of a question mark. And I just looked at him and I said... He's a wonderful person, but this is not my teacher. This is not... He's not showing me a way of life. The voice of Zigurashi, I saw his body. And his body said, his feet said, these feet are practicing. These feet are touching the ground, step by step. And not just my brain walking around the room. So, again, I wanted to come and train my senses, because I do have six senses, not just one. Not just intellect.

[17:27]

And I felt like that would help me find my true path in the world and be able to see more than the intellect can see. But it's interesting, especially people who are interested in intellectuals, they are interested in Zen, or they are sometimes at least interested in Zen. So I think maybe Zen is a physical practice that attracts some intellectuals. And it maybe attracts some of them because it's offering a training beyond, in addition to the intellect. And you can think it's neat to practice silent meditation, but when you actually put your body down and experience it, you find out something more. It's actually your body maybe having some difficulty sitting there. You have to figure out how to deal with that difficulty, that physical, intellectual challenges. Not just intellectual, philosophical problems, but physical problems. And I also was feeling at that time like,

[18:30]

a lot of the people who were most interesting were not just people who knew a lot, but people who could sense by some other means than intellectual knowledge. They could sense where the knowledge was going next, how the knowledge in different areas was evolving. Those were the most interesting people and the most interesting artists, too. They sensed where the music was going, where the poetry was going. And in order to do that, you need to use There's more information coming in about what's going on than just through our thoughts. We're getting information through all five senses, and I was not getting training in five of them. We're getting information through all six, I should say. And I was mostly encouraged to deal with information through one, in the university. I wanted to deal with information through six. And so Zen definitely has mind, an interesting intellectual presentation, but also has a physical presentation.

[19:41]

There's a touch presentation, because the body is actually touching the earth, and the hands are touching the hands, the legs are touching the legs, the legs are touching the feet. All that's going on, all this tactile, a very important tactile experience, How do you deal with intense tactile experience, actually? And then there's also sights. How does the room look? And there's sounds. You're listening to your mind, and you're listening to the trees, and you're listening to the birds, you're listening to the bells, and you're actually sitting there. So all your eyes, your ears, your touch, and your mind are very strongly influenced. And then also smell. Zen temples smell. they often smell really good. And the temple that Suzuki Roshi lived in when I first visited, it had a very wonderful smell. What kind of smell? smell of flowers and incense, and I think also Suzuki Roshi's wife's cooking.

[20:47]

And part of the experience of sitting meditation in that place was the smell of that place. And there were also tastes, like the taste of white rice, and Japanese pickles, those tastes. There's a unique taste. And it's interesting, you know, for me that when Zen Center moved out of that Japanese temple where we first started practicing over to the new building at 300... I went back to the old temple one time a few years afterwards, after Suzuki Roshi and his wife left, and I went into the meditation hall, and the feeling was... the smell was gone. his presence and her presence, the sensory effect of being there was gone. The room looked similar, but it was like maybe one-fifth, in a sensory way, it was like one-fifth of what it used to be.

[21:52]

And now the smell had been transferred to the new building. So you were lucky. I always felt that way. How... I know so many good people in this world who are, in a way, they're better than me. Why didn't they get a chance to study with this nice teacher and practice with this great community? How come I? I don't understand why I'm so fortunate. Go and practice with him and be there with him and have him there be there with me. Happy New Year. Was there a spiritual background to your childhood? Yeah, I think so. What kind of background? Can you say a little bit more about it? Well, I remember when I was 12, I decided to be a bad boy because it would be a great adventure.

[23:02]

So how did that work? Well, like, you know, for example, one day a friend of mine and I stole a car when I was 12. And I didn't know how to drive. Oh, God. And he was one year older than me, and he could drive a little bit. We went driving around, and it was a very exciting adventure for little boys. And then we crashed the car. Wow. And then the police caught us and took us to jail. And so it was very exciting, and I was really sorry because I thought it would really hurt my mother, and it did. It felt bad. And then I went back to school, and all the kids thought that that was totally cool. Because I lived in kind of like upper middle class neighborhood. The boys in my neighborhood did not go to jail. Nobody ever did that. So I was like a star doing that kind of, Did you feel like a star? I did. I didn't expect to be.

[24:05]

I was ashamed when my mother came to get me in jail. I was ashamed. But then when I went to a dance that night, everyone cheered me. And even there was a policeman at the dance, and even he said to me, the stronger the horse. There's some praising of the wildness of a young boy, and maybe girls too, but particularly young boys are sometimes praised for being wild and adventurous. So that was that. But my mother was still upset, so she asked me to talk to a man who lived in our apartment. My father didn't live with us at that time. They had separated. But there was a man who lived in our building, who didn't have any boys, he had girls. And he loved me, I think. And he kind of wanted me to have a son. And he came to talk to me. I think my mother encouraged him to talk to me about this tendency in my life. And then he told me that when he was young, he also did things like that.

[25:06]

And he told me some of the things he did. And I thought, oh yeah, you did it too. And then he said to me, and this is a big man, 6'4", 240 pounds, and he was also a 1940 Golden Gloves heavyweight boxing champion. So he was what you call a bad dude, you might say. And he just looked at me and he said, you know, it's easy to be bad. What's hard is to be good. And I just said, I kind of turned and said, okay. And then about a year later, also, I was feeling really bad. It was a Sunday, I remember. I remember that it was a Sunday. I don't know what day it was, but I remember it being a Sunday. And I was feeling bad about my life, and I didn't know what it was about, but suddenly I had this insight that when I went to school, I think most of my problems were social problems at school. I just thought, if I go to school tomorrow,

[26:08]

All I have to do is just be nice to all the kids. Focus on that. And I'll be fine. And I just felt great about that. I went to school, but as soon as I saw particularly the girls, I forgot about that. And it's not so much about being nice to people, it's about them being nice to me, and self-concern and all that. And that's what's so difficult about being a teenager. You're all concerned about yourself. So, in my early twenties, I had insights about what I wanted to be. I wanted to do good things. I wanted to be able to respond really skillfully and really beautifully. But how do you get to be that way? And then there was a training. And being a graduate student in psychology, they don't train you as a courageous person in the street. They don't teach you that. But it looked like Zen did. Do you remember some bodhisattvas in your childhood?

[27:10]

I mean, I guess the man you were just talking about was one of them. Yeah, he was one of them, yeah. Another one was around the time I was eight, I think I must have been to be, you might say, very introverted. Even though I played with kids and stuff like that at school, I did those things. When I wasn't playing with kids, a lot of times I would just open my room by myself. My parents were concerned about me because... myself a lot. And so they thought maybe I was hard of hearing maybe. So they sent me to an ear doctor to have my ears tested. I didn't have a problem. So then they sent me to a child psychologist, psychiatrist. His name was Dr. Hansen. And once or twice or three times I went, I had to cross the whole city to get there. I went with my mother. But after a while, I went by myself, which these days kids don't do that anymore in the United States, go across a big city by themselves on the bus.

[28:13]

But in those days, people thought it was safe, and I went because I really liked to see him. My sessions with him were, I would go see him, and he would say, is there anything you want to talk about? And I would say, no. And he would say, you want to build something? And I would say, yes. And we would build things. And also his adult skills, so he could make really neat stuff, like airplanes that fly, and model boats, and model cities. He did this stuff. And at the end of the session, he would say, is there anything you want to talk about? And I almost said, well, I'll say no. I went across the city on my own to do that. I was happy to go see him and spend that time with him. And I think that was another person in my life.

[29:15]

I think I have many bodhisattvas in my life, but I think that's why I'm so grateful to be alive, is that there are many bodhisattvas who have helped me, and led me to Zen Center, and led me to Suzuki Roshi, and then that led me to meet other bodhisattvas. So now I'm just, everybody I meet might be a bodhisattva as well. Humor. I might be one. We'll see. In Mahayana Buddhism, a bodhisattva is a human being committed to the attainment of enlightenment for the sake of all beings. That's the common description of a bodhisattva. Describe it. What's a bodhisattva? A bodhisattva is the way... that we're helping each other become free of delusion and be at peace. It's a way of life.

[30:17]

It's a way of living. It's not just in their relationships. And it's in the other people that they're related to. It's in their relationship with that person. It's in that intimate, intimate relationship. That's the bodhisattva. It's not the person. It's not the person they're relating to. It's the relationship. That's the bodhisattva. Half of a century? More than 50 years? Let's just say I've been in Zen Center for 49 years. Okay, but that's almost 50 years. And how much time before that was I practicing Zen? Who knows? Does a meditation practice, let's call it Zazen, exist without a Bodhisattva practice? Meditation practices do not go with the wish to realize the freedom of all beings. Some people meditate just for their own peace. Yeah, or to reduce stress. I mean, there's this mindfulness movement. Yeah, that's meditation too. That's mindfulness meditation.

[31:20]

to reduce stress, or maybe to be a better person. There are many kinds of meditations that are not necessarily bodhisattva meditations, which are not necessarily meditations which are about the way everybody's working together. That's bodhisattva meditation. It's not time function. It's how we're functioning, the reality of our relationship. And not all meditation practices are investigating that. But bodhisattva meditations are about that. They're about how mind is matter, and how matter is mind. Some meditation practice are not looking at that. And they still may be very beneficial. The bodhisattva meditation is looking at the essential working of reality, because that's necessary to see in order to actually enter the process of liberation for everybody. There's a variety of beneficial meditation practices.

[32:25]

The Bodhisattva one is a particular type, which a lot of people don't think they're interested in. But the Bodhisattva meditation actually is that they are interested in it, but they just don't know that they are. But he really is interested in the peace and freedom of all beings, they just don't know it yet. The bodhisattva vow includes the line, saving all beings. What does that mean to you personally? I guess it means that it's an interesting thing to think about all the time. It means to me personally that that's what I'm working on. That's what I'm remembering. I'm thinking about how that relates to my personal behavior. Does my personal behavior resonate with that? So it's like it's a thought that I like. Thoughts and postures and vocalizations, I try to keep them in relationship to that thought.

[33:28]

Can you give me one example for that? If I'm about to say something, I might check to see if I'm telling the truth. If I'm not telling the truth, I'm not... ...with this vow. If I'm talking to somebody and I notice that I'm trying to get something out of the conversation, then I say, well, that doesn't go with this vow. If I notice those kinds of things, then those would be examples of not being in accord with the vow. He starts with noticing it? Noticing it, and then maybe acknowledging that what I'm doing is actually kind of silly. Because it's not in accord with the way I want to live. And I'm sorry. In order to save all beings, do we have to save us first? Actually, it sort of does. You need to know how to save yourself in order to teach other people how to save themselves.

[34:29]

But you don't actually follow completely through on saving yourself. Otherwise, you might not be able to help others. the way of becoming free in order to free others. It'd be kind of like being in a prison and knowing how to get out. You can't help others, so you can help others get out. But you stay in the prison until everybody gets out. And you really love the work of helping them get out. But your main thing is to get everybody out. And if you leave before everybody's out, some people might not be able to get out. So you stay. And you don't get all the way out Or you might even go out with the people and then come back. You always emphasize that this is full practice, and you just said that you like this kind of work. Some people could feel a little bit overwhelmed by just the line, saving all beings.

[35:31]

Do you have some words on that? Yeah, I do have that vibe. I usually am saving, not saving, but I'm working on saving at a time, you know. The all beings is, it makes it so I don't make any exceptions about one person. So I have one person there, and because of that vow, this person is worthy of my full attention. If I didn't have the vow to save all people, I might say, well, this person's not, I don't think I want to do it with this person. I don't want to give this person my attention. I don't want to help this person learn how to be free. Because, you know, I don't like them, or something. But not liking people doesn't matter if you have this vow. You help people, and also liking them, you don't exclude them. You help everybody. You help old people, young people. You help smart people, non-smart people. You help men, you help women, you help all people. You hate in it, you help enemies, you help hate.

[36:35]

You don't just help love, you help hate. You hate because hate is a being. You help everything. But actually you do one thing at a time because we only can basically relate to one person at a time. And you don't think about the other people when you're helping this person, otherwise you might be overwhelmed. You know, like, when am I going to get to the other people? So as I do that, we take care of this person for all the other people. And you do a good job with this person, so you do a good job with the next person. So if I'm in a situation where I know that I need to talk to a lot of people, If I think about people when I'm talking to the one person, I really have a hard time. And I'm tempted to get this conversation over so I can move on to the next person. But I don't do that. I don't think about the next person.

[37:36]

I try to do this person as fully as I can to the next person. So when I get to them, I won't do them half-heartedly, too, because of the next person. And in that way, I can just do person after person. But if I think there's 90 people waiting to see me, I have trouble taking care of one person. So I don't think of it. And then I can see 90 people. Was there a moment when you thought, oh, this bodhisattva job might be a little bit too big for me, someone else has to do it? Was there a moment like that? Yeah, I don't think that way. I don't think this is a job for me. This is more like a job that I give myself to, that I do with everybody. So this job, everybody helps me do. It's not done by me. I can't do it without everybody helping me. And one of the ways people help me is to come to me and ask me to help them. I can't really help people if they don't want me to. That's the way I am. If they don't ask me, I don't have much to say.

[38:38]

I'm supported to do this. And they're supporting me to do it by asking me to help, by showing me their life and asking me to help. And other people are supporting me to help them. People give me food so I can help other people. And with the support of many people, I can serve this function, I can do this work. But I don't think about this as too much for me, and I don't think I can do it by myself. And I also don't think anybody else can do my job for me. It's my job to do this, and it's other people's job to do their job. So nobody can do my job but me, and I can't do my job to help everybody. So where does the wish-saving all beings come from? Is it naturally in us, or what would you say? I think it's in us. And most people do not know it's there. And so it usually needs to be presented.

[39:39]

Somebody has to kind of like wake it up for most people. So how do you wake it up? Well, like that person says to me, it's easy to be bad, but it's hard to be good. Or you walk around a meditation hall barefoot so somebody can see your feet. Or you sit and have your picture taken looking at a garden and somebody sees it. And it wakes up something in them, a feeling of the beauty of mind. That person touched something in me. And one time, there was an article about Zen Center, and they took pictures of Zen Center, and they took pictures of me, I was sweeping the ground with my daughter in my back, in a backpack. So there's this guy with a shaved head and a baby on his back sweeping the ground. And a gambler, a Mexican gambler, saw that article in the newspaper. And when he saw the picture of me, he said, And he went to Zen Center and he became a priest.

[40:45]

I guess it's a picture he saw of me. But that was in him. That monk sleeping on the ground with a baby on his back was already in him. It woke something up. We have it in us, but it needs to be away from each other. So how does trust play a role in the bodhisattva practice? I trusted that it would work better to be focused on other people's welfare than my own. I trusted that. And I still do. I trust that. But I have to also train to remember that I trust them. People spit in my face or slap me or insult me. I temporarily might forget that I'm focused on what I can do to help them. How I can be in assistance. How I can care for them. How can you do that? I don't know. I don't know how it happens, but for some people it does happen. And it seems like the people for whom it happens are people who have remembered that that's what they want to do.

[41:53]

They've remembered that for quite a few years. They've remembered it thousands and thousands of times. So when you remember something you want to do, it changes your body. Now we know it changes your neurological structure. What you remember or don't remember, it changes your body, which is the basis of your mind. So when you use your mind in a certain way, you change your body in a certain way. In another way, you change your body in another way. If you think about bowels of compassion, that changes your body in a certain way, so that when people attack you, you might already be thinking, before they attack you, how can I be of service? And so they attack you, and you still say, how can I be of service? When they're attacked, they say, how can I be of service? And also when they're praised, they think, how can I be of service? They don't take the praise and run off with it. They just do the same thing because they're thinking about it all the time.

[42:53]

They're thinking about their wish to live a certain kind of life. And so that they stay on that path when attacked or shocked. They can spin around and not lose it. Did something like that happen to you? Like that someone insulted you and you really... I think a few times. Really? Can you give me one example, maybe? One time I was in a class and one of the students said, I think I should confess that at dinner before this class I was telling people that I think you're a crappy teacher. And I laughed. And I was very happy that I laughed. And it wasn't a sarcastic laugh. I was so happy that I interned with that. Maybe some people might have thought it was an insult. I think I did okay that time. How did the person react? Then he said, but I also want to add, that after I said you were a crappy teacher, I said you are a great student.

[43:57]

I don't know if I laughed at that. But I was inflated when he said I was a great student. the path of liberation is by playing with people and showing them that there's play in our suffering, that there's a possibility to turn it and release it. Is the illusion of duality the fundamental distraction for a bodhisattva? You can say distraction or you can say challenge. Because it's not exactly a distraction. Or a hindrance or something like that. Well, it's not really a hindrance because it's more like it's what they have to study. It's like one of the fundamental things that they investigate. Fraction is actually, it's like their philosophical problem that they have to solve this problem of this apparent duality. They have to study that until they don't believe it anymore. Not by erasing it, but by understanding how it works.

[44:58]

It's a problem, but it's a distraction unless you believe it. If you believe it, then it will distract you from your bodhisattva work. If you believe it, it will hinder you from your bodhisattva work. If you believe it, you'll be afraid to do the bodhisattva work. So that's why we have to investigate this, so that we no longer are tricked by it. It's a distraction that our consciousness normally constructs. So it's more like a bodhisattva's study project. And by taking care of that, their work is unhindered. But if they don't study that, their work will be somewhat... They can still try to help people all the time and try to be patient and try to be playful and try to be of service. But if they don't understand this problem, they're going to you're still going to be afraid of pain. And there's pain involved in helping people sometimes. But if you're not afraid of it, you can still do it. So a bodhisattva is not a superhero or something like that, I guess.

[45:59]

And a bodhisattva, of course, can make mistakes. Bodhisattvas can make mistakes and they have practices. Yeah, that's what I wanted to talk about. Practices of relating to their mistakes. Yeah, confession and repentance. Can you say a little bit more about that, please? when bodhisattvas want to make the vow, their vows, to practice certain training things, like they make the vow to deal with certain forms, certain social forms, and also they make the vow to practice certain wholesome activities, and also they make the vow to be of service to all beings. And they also, when they make those vows to practice those precepts, they also make a vow to practice confession and repentance when they don't follow through on the precepts which they asked for and which were given to them. So they ask for the precepts so they can train their... So bodhisattvas are ordinary people with a heart that wants to learn this practice, and they want to practice these precepts.

[47:09]

And then they also have received a practice of what to do when you fail at what you want to do. So the process is receive, fail, confess and repent, Receive the precept, aspire to practice it, fail, confess and repent, receive the precept, aspire to practice it, fail, and sometimes succeed. Receive the precept. Sometimes. Succeed, and then there's no confession and repentance. Receive the precept, aspire... So what exactly is happening by doing the practice of confession and repentance? It's how it works, I would say, is inconceivable. But how does it help, this practice? It melts away the root of what's distracting you from your work. So something's distracting you from what you want to do, like you want to be kind to people, and then you notice you're impatient, disrespectful,

[48:13]

whatever, dishonest, frightened, and not doing what you want to do. And then if you acknowledge that and say you're sorry, that process melts away whatever is the forces that are distracting you. Again, that practice changes your body. Mm-hmm. It transforms your body, which is the support of your mind, which leads to being successful or not. So the theory is that by doing this over and over, you receive the precept, you aspire to practice it, and you do. You stop failing eventually, but the process is more or less endless. is too subtle and wondrous to understand conceptually or consciously. Just like if you ask, how do people actually learn to play the piano? Well, you can see them doing the exercises.

[49:15]

But how does those exercises translate to transform your body so that they can do the piano? We know that there's some relationship between practicing and having a teacher, and the music, and moving the fingers, moving fingers, thinking about it, moving fingers, hand, eye, all that changes the body. And when the body's changed, we play the piano. But how that works, we do not know. And the same with this process. How the vows transform us, how the confession of failure transforms it, it's too complex. But there's some faith that practicing the piano might learn to play the piano. And there's some faith that making these vows, noticing when you're unsuccessful, confessing that you did it, that this process has been taught as the process by which you become able to play the bodhisattva game.

[50:16]

Please. Please. The 16th grade Bodhisattva precepts are pretty good, I would say, job descriptions for a Bodhisattva. At the end of his life, Suzuki Roshi placed particular emphasis on the precepts, if I remember it right. In the summer before he died, the last summer of his life, he placed emphasis on the precepts, that's right. Can you explain why? Why it happened at the time? Yeah, do you know that? I don't know. But could you imagine something? I was there when he was doing it. And I hardly noticed that he was doing it. Now I look back and I say, that's interesting. He didn't talk about the precepts so much before. I didn't really notice them. Dane, as a priest, he gave me the precepts, but he gave them to me in Japanese. I didn't even know what they were that I was receiving. You really had no idea?

[51:29]

I don't remember, but I don't think I really knew that he was giving me these 16 Bodhisattva precepts. I think I knew the first three are refuge in Buddha Dharma. Those, namo kie butsu, namo kie ho, namo kie so, those three, the Japanese I knew, but I didn't know the Japanese for the next 13 at that time. I think I heard about them, but they were not salient features of my training at that time, those precepts. My practice, attending to him, practicing sitting, doing my work, hearing his talks. That's what my practice was. There was almost no discussion of these bodhisattva precepts. So when did you start? So if you look at his lectures, you'll notice that he was specifically talking about them. But I was there and I didn't really say, oh, he's talking about these things that he didn't talk about. It didn't strike me. Mm-hmm. Later, after he passed away, I started to realize that the Zen Center, we're not emphasizing those precepts much.

[52:39]

And that's in my book on the precepts, is that I was kind of wondering, don't we have teachings on precepts in Zen school? Yeah, and some people are really a little bit, I don't know how to say it, but they think Zen is just about sitting and that's it. Yeah, right. And I think, again, if I of what I thought Zen practice was, I saw these stories of these bodhisattvas who were practicing the precepts, but I didn't know that they were practicing those precepts. I just saw them doing something beautiful. When I started sitting, I thought that was the training, just the sitting. That's all I thought the sitting practice training was, about these precepts. And a lot of people, when they hear about the precepts, they're actually kind of turned off. Right, because some people are reminded of the Ten Commandments and committing a sin and something like that. Some people like to approach Zen because when they see somebody sitting, they do not see that as ethical practice, moral discipline.

[53:41]

It is, but you don't see it. Later, again, I saw, finally, that the sitting is the precepts, and the precepts are the sitting. But I didn't understand that until I started to study it. And so the name of my book is Bodhisattva Precepts in Zen Meditation. I did not... Meditation was the bodhisattva precepts. I had to have somebody tell me that, because they looked different. And the Bhikhniks, they knew about Zen, and they also didn't see anything about precepts there. I would say Zen was growing and growing, and finally Zen started to realize... that this Zazen practice, this meditation, is based on these precepts. And that has been a big change in the last 30 years. For the first 20 or 30 years of Zen growing in the West, the precepts were almost unheard of. And maybe that was good because a whole bunch of people came in who might have not come if they knew about the precepts.

[54:43]

They just saw the beautiful sitting. And it is. But they didn't come to learn about ethics. That's why they were unsuccessful at the sitting. That's why they had trouble with the sitting. And a lot of people quit because they didn't have the ethical foundation to do this beneficial way. Can you explain this a little bit more? Like if you drink too much alcohol and you try to sit, you know, it may be fun, but you can't, you know, you can't pay attention. Right. Then you fall asleep. Also, if you drink too much alcohol, you get kicked out of the Zen center, you know. You act inappropriately. If you lie or you're cruel to people, then you sit down and you can't concentrate because you feel so bad, you know. you actually have to get up and go and apologize to somebody. So if you're not careful of what you do in your daily life and you try to sit down, it's very difficult to be calm. taking care of your life if you're generous and you're careful you actually it's okay to sit still you know you've taken care of your life so you can actually like just look at what's going on but if you don't take care of your life you're distracted by the things you didn't take care of and a lot of people thought they could just be inattentive to ethical issues and be able

[55:59]

and they tried and they had a real hard time and now we find out that if you're careful about your ethical behavior it makes it easier to enter into states of calm and relaxation and in the east they know this but they didn't tell us and part of the reason they didn't tell us is maybe Tell them they won't be interested. In being upright, you say... I just think that we're another version of their problems with Christianity. Not all Christians do that, but a lot of people don't want to deal with that because nobody taught them how beautiful the precepts are. You say they are like the precepts are not given to prevent us from acting in unwholesome ways, but rather are meant to awaken us from delusion. Precepts are not supposed to control us, but encourage the fullest flowering of life. So how do we practice with the precepts? Well, is you look at them and you think that you want to commit to them.

[57:05]

I think they would be good. And you try to practice them. But you don't feel controlled by them. I think that's a very important point for some people. I sure don't feel controlled by them. They're not controlling me. I'm still not doing them. But you can't, like in Christianity, you can't commit a sin? In Buddhism, you can commit a sin. As a matter of fact, one of the first shocking things I heard from Suzuki Roshi was when he said, when you look at a flower and you say it's beautiful, that's a sin. And I thought, that's very strict. Because, you know, when you look at a flower, you should just respect the flower and look at the flower. You shouldn't be talking about what the flower is and telling the flower what it is and telling people... Putting something on top of it is kind of a sin. It's kind of a defense. Like, there you are with this flower, and you can't just be with it, you have to sort of, you have to sort of say, that's a kind of sin. It's a kind of, you could say it's like taking what's not given. You could say it's like, it's like slandering the flower.

[58:09]

You could say it's a compliment, but really, the flower is more than that statement. And for you to say, that's beautiful, is kind of disrespectful. You shouldn't slander. And also, there's another precept, which is you shouldn't praise yourself at the expense of others. Like, I can say what the flower is. It's kind of not very respectful. It's more like we should be in awe of the flower. Like, what is that flower? That's not a sin. What is this? Who are you? I will now say what that is. That is beautiful. That's very strict, I know, but that's like, goes against these precepts. It's also kind of like possessive. Like, I own this flower. I can decide what to do with it. I can say what it is. You could even maybe say it almost kills the flower. It's rather than what can I do for you, flower, I'm going to go around and tell you what you are. So mostly mindfulness, which means memory, basically, is to remember what's important.

[59:15]

Remember the vows and remember the precepts which involve the practice. But they are not like a law or something. They are a law. They are. They're a law in the sense that they are the way things are. They're the way things are, but they don't control you. Otherwise, you would be that way. There's something you want to be in accord with. You want to understand how that's reality. Those precepts are the law. Buddhists are like that, and Buddhists are like that means that's the way we are. We are just like that. In reality, we do not kill. In reality, we do not steal. And if you don't understand that, well, practice those precepts until you do. They're not controlling you. If they already had us under control, we wouldn't... But because we're not under their control, because they're opportunities for us to be devoted, they're out there. And we can be devoted to them and we can live our life for them and by them and as them. And we realize someday that that has always been the reality of our life.

[60:19]

It's right speech, and your observation is that many people are dealing with that. How can we start practicing right speech, especially if it is a problem for quite a few people? Like you just did it. You just made a good start. How can we practice right speech? Really good right speech exercise. Just by asking the question? Yeah. Like right now, I'm talking to you. It would be good if while I'm talking to you, I'm aware of that question. It changes the way I look at you. It changes the way I talk. It makes me listen to what I'm saying. I think it would help me listen to you. How can I practice? How can we practice right speech? Also, how can I listen to you? Practicing right speech, I think, has something to do with listening to people. If I really listen to people, I think that would encourage me to tell the truth and be careful of what I say to them, because I care enough about them to listen to them. So maybe I should care enough about... But the question, I think, really embraces all these things I just said.

[61:25]

If I say... How can I practice right speech? That seems like that would go quite nicely with maybe being careful would be appropriate. Maybe being gentle with my speech would be appropriate. Maybe right speech is respectful piece. And then we also have teachings like right speech is to tell the truth. But sometimes telling the truth is not beneficial. It doesn't mean that you switch from truth to lying. It's just maybe you don't say some truths. Or maybe you say it later, if it's appropriate. Yeah. It's beneficial. So if it's true and it's beneficial, then you also, it's a question of when you say it. Because sometimes it's true and beneficial, but it's not the right time. So those guidelines help us find right speech. So it does mean that I'm a little more careful if I... Is this true? Is what I'm saying about that person true, or just what I heard? Actually, I haven't verified that, so maybe I shouldn't say anything yet.

[62:29]

Then I find out it's true. Is it beneficial? I think so. Is it a good time? No. It's not a good time because they're not in me right now, or they're too upset about something else to hear this. So I'll tell him later. But the basic thing, I think, is to have the question, what is right speech? What are these precepts? Back in the days, you carried a notepad with you. The notepad was full of questions that you asked Hiroshi in moments that seemed appropriate. Do you remember a question you've asked that was or maybe still is a very important one for you? Usually I remember the first question I asked him, what is the right effort? And he said, getting up when the alarm goes off with no hesitation. I could now just continue. Now that I start thinking of the questions, more will come. But that's the first one that came to mind, which just happened to be the first one.

[63:30]

How did it work for you? The next morning I could check to see, can I get up with no hesitation? And I found that it was actually kind of hard. A little hesitation. But I could work on it. I could say, yeah, a little. And then the next morning, every morning, now it's been 45 years since he died, and every morning I look to see, is there hesitation? Really? You're still looking at it? Yeah. Because every morning there could or could not be hesitation. Every morning could be there or not. So you're still practicing it. I'm still practicing it. And like I said, the next question comes to my mind. Now, this isn't the next one. Some other ones happen in between. But the next one that comes to my mind, which maybe you've heard, is he gave me a talk at Tufts. And he said, blah, blah, blah, my students. Have you heard that one? Mm-hmm. said something about it. He said, my students, blah, blah. And when he said that, I thought, I wonder who his students are.

[64:33]

Maybe he even said disciple, I'm not sure. I think he said maybe disciple. So my disciple, I thought, I wonder who his disciple is. After the talk was over, I said, Roshi, you spoke about your disciples in the talk today. Who are your disciples? And then he answered the question. And his answer was, I don't like this, but this is the way my mind works. There's two kinds of students that us are. He didn't like that he thinks that way, but he can feel it. There's two kinds. One kind are here for themselves, and the other kind are here for others. The ones who are here for others are my disciples. but he loved the other ones too, and they could stay at Tosahara. And he didn't say what percentage was which. And so when he said that, the same, I thought, well, I wonder if I'm his disciple. I remember that to see, am I here for others or for me? I keep looking at that. And I had a notebook just so I wouldn't have to like, so if there was ever a moment that we were together, I would always have some questions.

[65:37]

Do you think you learned a lot by asking? Or was it more about looking at him and just being with him and practicing with him? It was both, but which is most important, it was the second. Mostly it was about me wanting to talk to him. It was about me being with him. I was there. I didn't have to be there. I went to where he was. and I was around him, and I was there, and I wanted to talk to him. It was about me wanting to be with him and talk with him. That's part of it. It was about him letting me do that. That's basically what it was about. I wanted to be with him, and he could see that I was making being with him a or the priority of my life. Since I was willing to give most of myself to him, he would give most of himself to me. That's what it really was about. And the questions showed that I had done my homework and I wanted to have something to talk about.

[66:42]

And I was interested in some things, but I think he basically knew I just wanted to be with him. And this is one way to do it. And these questions, you see, they were nice questions. Yeah, absolutely. But the main thing is just the relationship. And that I was showing him my young Zen heart. Wanted to respond to that. Do you have a most favorite Bodhisattva poem? No, I don't have a most favorite. But do you have one that you really like? Something that comes to your mind? I have many that I really like. That's why it's hard to have a favorite. I'm not going to... Can you just say one? Yeah, but I can say more than one. I can say many. Okay. I'll say one. Windless, waveless, there in the moonlight water, abandoned boat, swamped in moonlight.

[67:46]

Thank you so much. You're so welcome.

[67:50]

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