Good evening, venerables here at the site and our fellow friends and also all the venerables and friends online. Good evening, Amitabha. 好像平常比較少見到的面孔。 So actually, first of all, we would like to bid you a warm welcome to the Dharma Talk. As we are aware, this is a very special time and very special occasion this evening because normally the Dharma Drum Talk will be held on Wednesdays, but today it's on Monday.

[01:09]

And we're very delighted to see so many friends here. Originally, we expected very few people, but we're delighted to see so many of you. And even includes people that we seldom see here in the monastery for the talk. I also know that some of you are just from the Buddhism beginners class, and you just skip your class for the talk. 所以可以想见我们今天的讲座非常的有吸引力。 So we can imagine how popular this talk is for tonight. 那我们今天的姻缘真的非常的特别。 那就是因为一个姻缘的关系, 那我们就能够邀请到我们的讲者来到我们的农产室。 那我们的讲者是天真全机讲师, 他的中文的法名是这样子。 Okay, so out of very, very extraordinary conditions, we have this talk arranged this evening.

[02:14]

We are very happy and very honored to have our speaker, Roshi Anderson. His Dharma name is Tenshin Rep. Anderson. He is the first generation Dharma heir of Roshi Shurun Suzuki. And their lineage is Chaodong, Zoto, Zen, Japanese Zen tradition. So... And they have a Zen meditation center in San Francisco and also a Green Gulch farm there.

[03:29]

And Roshi Anderson has served for many years, more than 10 years, for the Zen meditation center. 她本人也修行,也超过将近50年。 现场可能很多人都还没有超过50岁。 He has been practicing for more than 50 years. I forgot to mention that many of you may be familiar with the book written by his teacher, Shunrun Suzuki, that is Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. Okay. So, actually... Right, so actually all of these cultivation and practices have actually resulted in very, very rich and abundant practices.

[04:46]

And especially after Roche Anderson followed a very, very outstanding teacher and practiced for so many years, there's certainly a lot to be learned from his talk this evening. So that's why we have a talk this evening, Zen Practice and Me. So let's join our palms and welcome Roshi Anderson. Let's start the chat. So those of you who know about it, you can chant it in your language. I will lead the Chinese and Roshi will chant in Japanese.

[05:50]

If you know the language, you can chant in English as well. So maybe you can tell us the meaning for our audience here who do not speak Chinese, the lines. Say it in English? Yes. An unsurpassed, penetrating, and perfect dharma. is rarely met even in a hundred thousand million kalpas. Having it to listen to and accept, to remember and accept, I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words." I heard that Empress Wu invited Zen teachers to come to her palace and teach her.

[07:11]

I I'm going to make a statement. And that was it. I will make other statements which I am sincerely offering to you. But what I offer is something to have dialogue about. I appreciate that you are able to bow in this direction to Shakyamuni Buddha, who you couldn't see. 我非常的欣赏大家能够向上问讯这件事情 特别向上向佛陀问讯 特别是对着大家所看不到的这个对象来问讯 I heard that a long time ago in India 那很久以前呢 我从印度那边听到过一个事情 There was a visible Shakyamuni Buddha 世尊是不可见的 Now we have statues that are visible

[08:37]

I also heard that Shakyamuni Buddha gave teachings in India thousands of years ago. In Sanskrit, they call these teachings Buddha Dharma. Now, here's another statement. Buddha Dharma has no beginning and no end. The Dharma which Shakyamuni Buddha gave in India some people say that was the beginning of the Dharma. 有人说那就是佛法的开始。 But I say that was not the beginning.

[10:39]

但我会说那不是开始。 That was a very important moment of Buddha Dharma. 那是佛法传承过程当中一个很重要的时刻。 But before Shakyamuni Buddha gave the Buddha Dharma, 在世尊开始传授佛法之前, From beginningless time, the Buddha Dharma was being given. And after Shakyamuni Buddha stopped living in this world and stopped giving Buddha Dharma, the Buddha Dharma has continued to be given With no pause. Until now. And it will continue from now on. For us to listen to and accept and understand. Then there's a story about a school of Buddha Dharma called Chan.

[12:16]

And people say that Chan started In China. I agree that what appeared in China appeared in China. But what appeared was the Buddha Dharma. And what appeared had no beginning. 那真正出现的那个东西其实并没有开始。 And no end. 无始而且无终。 So the way Zen appeared in China about 1500 years ago, 在大概1500多年出现在中国的禅宗呢? 我们看不到。 And whatever appeared there 1,500 years ago was the Buddha Dharma which did not start where it appeared.

[13:32]

And when what appeared disappeared For me, I use the word Zen as a synonym for Buddha Dharma.

[14:36]

And I understand that other schools of Buddha Dharma use the name of their school as a synonym for Buddha Dharma. And I think that's fine. I was asked before I came here, before I came to Taiwan, I was invited to come and give a talk here. I was asked what I would like to talk about. 那有人就,他们邀请的人就问我说我想谈什么。 And I said, what would you like me to talk about? 那我就问说,那你们想要我谈什么呢? And the suggestion that came back to me 那给我的建议的题目呢 was Zen practice and me. 就是禅修行与我。 And I thought, very good.

[15:54]

There's many reasons why I think that this is a good topic. Or a good statement. Because Zen practice Because Zen practice is me. And I am Zen practice. Zen practice is you. And what you really are is Zen practice. What I really am is Zen practice. And Zen practice is the way I find out what I really am. And like Zen practice, I have no beginning and end. Zen practice has no beginning. I have no beginning. No one can find the beginning of me.

[17:18]

No one can find the end of me. I will die soon. But that's not the end of me. And it's not the beginning of me either. It's the dead me. The dead me. It's the dead me. I heard about Zen when I was quite young, like you have maybe. And then after some time, I heard about certain kinds of Zen training.

[18:19]

For example, training in sitting upright. And still. And silent. And so I tried. But I had trouble practicing it on a daily basis. I heard that the training in Zen is a daily practice. But I couldn't do the sitting on a daily basis. At that time I did not understand that I was practicing on a daily basis.

[19:52]

I did not understand who I really was. So I thought Since I did not understand that I was practicing every moment, every day, I thought that if I went someplace where many people were coming together to practice, that maybe they would support me to practice every day. So I traveled thousands of miles from the middle of North America to San Francisco. Because I heard there was a Zen center there.

[21:14]

With a teacher. And a sangha. And when I got there. A funny thing happened. I went to the place where the temple was, where the address was, 181 Bush Street. Bush, B-U-S-H. Yeah. In San Francisco. So I went to that door that said 181, and I knocked on the door, And an old Japanese man opened the door. And he looked at me and made a gesture that I could go in. So I went in. And Then I think maybe somebody else made a gesture showing me a place to sit down.

[22:45]

So I did. I was 23 years old. And I looked around the room and I saw many old Japanese men. smoking cigarettes. And although I didn't exactly know much about Go, I could see that they're playing Go. And I sat there and watched for a while. And I thought, maybe this is not the Zen Center. So I said to one of the men, Is this the Zen center? The Chan center? And he said, No. It's next door. So I went next door.

[24:07]

And the address next door was 181. B. That was 181A. And it knocked on the door. And the door opened. Now I was expecting to meet the teacher at this temple. The teacher named Suzuki Shunryu. Who is the founder of the San Francisco Zen Center. And the person who ordained me as a priest. And I was expecting him to be there. And I heard he was about 62 years old. So the door opened and there was a Japanese priest.

[25:15]

Shaved head and robes. But he looked like he was in his 30s. And I thought, Zen is very good for your health. Actually, it was not Suzuki Roshi. It was a young Zen priest. Anyway, I got to the Zen center and I found that because the people were practicing there, because Suzuki Roshi was practicing there, Six days a week. And the other students were practicing six days a week. I was able to practice six days a week. I went there To get help.

[26:30]

From the teacher. And the sangha. And they did help me. I understood. That I wanted their help. That I was asking for their help. And I understood they gave it to me. And so, for 50 years, I could practice every day. And now I wake up to understand that we're always practicing. But if we don't practice, we don't understand that we're always practicing.

[27:33]

It may take many years of practice to understand that you've been practicing From beginningless time. That from beginningless time you have been practicing to Buddhahood. But if you keep practicing, you will understand that. Also, When I first went to Zen Center, I didn't think I was going there to help the teacher. I didn't think I was going there to help the Zen Master. I didn't think I was going there to help the Sangha.

[28:34]

Now I understand. That I went to Zen Center to help the teacher. And I did help the teacher. And he felt that I helped him. And I did go to help the Sangha. And they felt that I helped them. So I practiced to receive help and to give help. And I do receive help. And I do give help. But I didn't understand that when I was young. Now I do. It's good to understand.

[29:58]

So you're helping me now. And I'm helping you. I'm calling for you to be compassionate to me. And you are calling to me to be compassionate to you. Even though you may not understand that yet. And even though I understand it somewhat, when I first thought of coming to Taiwan, I didn't think the people in Taiwan are calling to me and asking me to come. And I didn't think, I'm going to Taiwan to help them.

[31:00]

And I didn't think, I'm going to Taiwan. So the people in Taiwan can help me. But I did go to Taiwan. And the people in Taiwan did help me. Not just you. Also the people at What is it? 法谷山 法谷山 法谷山上的人也帮了我。 The people there helped me. 他们也帮了我。 Also, I went down to 花莲 我也去了花莲 to see the Toroku Gorge. 去那个太鲁阁 I went into the gorge. 然后经过太鲁阁的那个地方 But maybe I forgot. 可能我忘记了 But really I did not forget. I'm going to the mountains to honor the mountains.

[32:16]

One of the great Zen masters was named Guishan. Guishan Lingyu. Guishan Lingyu. And his disciple was Yangshan. And Yangshan means venerate the mountains. So I did. I went to the mountains to venerate the mountains. I knew I was doing that. And now I remember that the mountains called me. They called me from California to come to Taiwan and express my respect.

[33:24]

And I did. And in Hualien, There's a Buddhist organization which in English is called Compassionate Relief. It's in Hualien. I didn't know before I went that it was there. But I found it. And I went there. And they helped me. They showed me another form of Buddha Dharma. And I helped them. I ate their rice. I said thank you. I bowed to their Buddha. And I gave them money. Now back to me.

[34:36]

Zen practice and me. But before I do that, I want to mention one more thing. When I first went to Zen Center in San Francisco to practice with the teacher and the sangha after a little while, people would ask me, how long have you been practicing? And when I was there for about one year, if they would ask me, I would say, one year. After two years, I would say two years. After five years, I would say, well, I'm not sure. I came to Zen Center five years ago.

[35:42]

But now I see that I was practicing before I came. So maybe I've been practicing 10 years. And after practicing 20 years, If people ask me, I could see that I was practicing 40 years. The longer I practice, the more I see my practice goes back. The more I go forward, the more it goes back. But after one year, I didn't see that. I thought one year was one year. So now, back to Zen practice and me. Me, or myself has to do with my identity.

[36:57]

So my identity is that I'm a Zen student. I'm a student of Zen. I've been studying Zen from beginningless time. That's my spiritual identity. Even on, actually on my passport, it doesn't have, is your occupation on your passport? Anyway, My passport is not really my identity. Although it's a little part of my identity because I do have a passport. But my spiritual identity is Zen student. Is Buddha Dharma student. my spiritual identity is aspiring to be bodhisattva.

[38:12]

所以呢,我呢就是希望能够成为修菩萨道,成为菩萨。 但是这个我的灵性的这样的一个身份认同呢, It's ungraspable. So, I have this spiritual identity right now. And when I came to Taiwan, I had a spiritual identity too. But the spiritual identity I had when I came to Taiwan is not the one I have now. But I remember I had one. And that I've had many, many, many, many, many spiritual identities. Every day I have a new spiritual identity.

[39:31]

So the spiritual identity that I brought with me to Taiwan, as soon as I got to Taiwan and I met the people in Taiwan, my spiritual identity started to change. 所以当我从美国带着来到台湾的那个灵性的身份认同,当我碰到台湾的人的时候呢,他开始的进行了,他产生了转变。 Before I went to Fagu Shan, before I went there, I saw the people in Taipei. And when I met them, my spiritual identity changed.

[40:36]

A new dimension of my spiritual identity unfolded. But I don't mind. I couldn't grasp my old spiritual identity. Zen is constantly changing in relationship to all beings. The founder of Compassionate Relief is she a Zen priest?

[41:37]

花蓮慈济功德會的創辦人正年法師也是禪修的人嗎? 也在做禪修嗎? Do we know? She's not? She's a different school? Yeah. Different. Okay. She's different. So she's different. So Zen is different. She's changing Zen. And Zen is changing her. In reality. And again, every place I go in Taiwan, if I go to Dharma Drum Mountain, I meet the people there, my spiritual life changes.

[42:41]

这个东西是一个持续变化的过程。 像我去法谷山,碰到不同的法谷山的人, 那我的灵性的身份认同也就在做不同的变化, 在跟人互动当中产生变化。 I went to, what is it, Dragon Gate Temple in Taipei. Isn't it Lung Man Tzu? Dragon Mountain Dragon Mountain Dragon Mountain Temple I went there, my spirit, my identity changed. I didn't do what the people there were doing. I didn't take the little wooden things and throw them on the ground. But I was there with them. And I changed. And today, coming here, I heard about your Zen running. And when I heard about that, I changed. My spiritual identity changed. Everything is changing my spiritual identity.

[44:03]

And remembering that spiritual identity and remembering that is changing is remembering Zen. And the way it's changing the way it's changing is Zen. 那他改变的方式也是禅的本身。 The way it is isn't Zen. 他的样子就是禅。 The way I am right now isn't Zen. 我现在这个样子也是禅。 The way I'm changing in relationship to you is Zen. 我跟各位关系的改变也是禅的过程。 My face is not Zen. 我的脸不是禅。 Your face is not Zen. 你的脸也不是禅。 The meeting of our faces is Zen. 我们脸跟脸的互相的相遇是禅。 Giving them my face. And the receiving of your face.

[45:06]

This face. My giving my face to you. And receiving your face. That's Zen. So we have a story in Zen. that once upon a time there was a Buddha named Shakyamuni. And he was sitting in front of a large group. And he raised a flower. I can't get one of these flowers because they're all in the same thing. He raised the flower and he twirled it. I just did that. And many of you people smiled. When Shakyamuni Buddha did it a long time ago, only one person smiled.

[46:24]

Now almost everybody smiles. Is this an improvement? I don't know. Anyway, after he spinned the flower and that one person smiled whose name was Mahakashapa. 所以在射针拧花的时候呢,只有一个人笑,那就是摩赫加射针者,他就笑了。 He said, oh then, oh excuse me, I forgot. 哦,对不起,我忘记了,我忘记了。 He raised the flower, 把花举起来,转了一下, and then he winked. 他有一个扎来扎来的眼睛。 好,就像他现在示范的动作。 And one person smiled. And then he said, I now give the entire treasury of true Dharma eyes the inconceivable mind of nirvana to Mahakasyapa.

[47:46]

So in the Zen tradition, that's the first transmission. Buddha to his first successor. Buddha gave her face and winked. Mahakashipa smiled. They gave each other their faces. This meeting, this giving of the face. I see you. This is Zen. 彼此给彼此那个怎么讲 脸庞或者是那个脸色 对 那表情 他们互相的给彼此的那个表情 And this has no beginning. 那这个其实是一个无始无终的一个过程 And still going on today. 然后呢 现在还传承到我们这边 在现在 他会持续到未来 So the Zen school, what we call the Zen school, you don't find it in India.

[49:12]

But it was there. It just looked different. So in China, it looked many different ways, but one of the ways it looked, we call Bodhidharma. Bodhidharma is one of the ways Guanyin Bodhisattva looks. Guanyin Bodhisattva. Guanyin Bodhisattva. And before Bodhidharma, Guan Yin looked other ways in India. Usually a very handsome man. Often with a mustache. And lots of jewels. A prince. Beautiful, compassionate prince. And now in China we have Bodhidharma who doesn't look like a prince.

[50:43]

He looks like a Buddhist monk. Avalokiteshvara's practice is beginningless. Bodhidharma's practice is beginningless. And then later, after Bodhidharma, people said he was the founder of Zen in China. And there's a story that Bodhidharma said, A special transmission. 有一种很特别的那种传法的方式。 Outside the scriptures. 就教外别传。 Beyond words. 不利于文字。 That points to the human heart. 直指人心。 and sees its nature, and becomes Buddha.

[52:11]

So for me, this is the special transmission is meeting each other. And this meeting with each other is not in the scriptures, I'm not just me. I'm also you. I'm not just you. I'm also me. And I'm not just you and me. I'm you and me meeting. This is how I am Zen practice.

[53:15]

Which means how I am Zen practice is how I'm in relationship. Zen practice is not made by myself. Or you by yourself. It's all of us working together. That's my statement. 那就是我的另外一个宣言宣示。 And now maybe we have a break. 那我们现在可能就可以先休息一下,稍微休息。 When Japanese monks come to visit San Francisco Zen Center, 那当日本的禅师来旧金山的禅中心来访问的时候呢, And they come to Dharma talks.

[54:23]

They're very surprised to see that the American Zen students ask lots of questions. In Japan, when a Zen teacher gives a talk, The students usually don't ask any questions. And I heard a rumor that you're like that too. So when I was talking before, I looked at your faces and I thought you really understood me. So I'm pretty much done. I think you understand what Zen is. It's an intimate transmission. And it's going on all the time. But if we don't practice it, we won't understand it.

[55:52]

So, is there anything you'd like to tell me to say? Any instruction you'd like to give me? Any questions you'd like to ask? A question. Behind you? They're first? Okay. Where are you? Who's the one that's first? Oh, yes. Greetings, Roshi Anderson. It's a very honor to have you here to share with us. And here I have a question which I would like to understand your opinion. It's Recently, I read an article which said that many people who meditate think that meditation can do a lot of things, including cure their early trauma.

[57:04]

I mean, maybe in their childhood or some psychological trauma beforehand. But several articles said that actually meditation can't do it all. Meditation can help with those things, those psychological problems we encountered when we were younger. And this problem encountered even including those who teach meditation. Meditation teachers also face this kind of problem. And so I would like to see your opinion about this issue. Thank you. 需要先翻译吗,法师? 需要先翻译吗,法师? A couple things come to mind.

[58:08]

我有几个想到的回应 One is that sometimes Zen is described as having two parts. One is clean the temple and the other part is sit. 通常大家想到禅师就会想到两个部分 一个就是去把那个寺院打扫干净 另外一个就是打坐 So we do that, right? We clean the temple and we sit. And many people associate the sitting with the meditation. But to me they're a process. One process. So working with trauma is like cleaning the house. Cleaning the temple. After you clean the temple enough, you never completely clean the temple.

[59:39]

But you clean enough so you can sit. Really calmly and openly. And then, after you sit, you clean the temple. And then you sit. And then you clean the temple. So when you clean the temple enough to sit, and then after you sit, when you clean the temple, you can clean it more thoroughly. So if I have psychological trauma and I don't take care of it, I won't be able to sit. It won't really be sitting. It'll be some kind of tense, repressive exercise, which is not what we mean by sitting.

[60:48]

所以其实要是没有把它足够地打扫得干净的话, 你是没有办法安定地坐下来的。 But I don't think we have to completely clean up all our trauma before we can sit quite well. So then, let's say we do clean up our trauma's temple and then we sit quite well, but then we can go back and go deeper into the trauma and into the subtleties of it. And then we can sit even deeper. And forever. And sometimes cleaning the temple might require that perhaps the teacher recommends that the student go to a professional in treating traumatic psychological background.

[62:08]

The teacher may not know how to work with that, do that type of cleaning. 所以有时候你的老师,你的禅修的老师可能会告诉你说,这时候你需要去寻求专业的资商的服务,因为老师可能不晓得该如何帮助你去清理那个部分,所以他会建议你去寻求专业的协助。 Or some Zen teachers might be better at working with cleaning the trauma of the temple. 所以有时候老师会可能他比较擅长处理那个方面的,特定方面的这种创伤经验。 And I might not be so good, but maybe I recommend they go see that teacher. Does that address your question? Yes. Yes. Yeah, please stand up.

[63:17]

I'm very, very beginner of learning Zen. But when you're beginning to starting to talk about is no beginning and not the end. And it's come to, probably, I don't know how to explain, my English probably is not precisely good enough to describe how I feel. But I don't know why when you talk about maybe face to face or Buddhism and Zen, I just don't know why I just come to tears. And I believe when you talk about face to face, and it just feels like very powerful energy goes through. And I thank you. Thank you for telling me that.

[64:23]

So you can be a beginner, and the beginner has no beginning. There's no beginning to this beginner. But you are a beginner. And I'm like an old man and there's no beginning to this old man. But I am an old man. But there's no beginning to me or to a baby or to a woman who's just starting to practice Zen in this form that you are today. But even at the beginning you can have this meeting. Even at the beginning, you can taste what Zen really is by the meeting. And then, continue. Okay. 好 但是我們Roshi給他的回應呢 那我們菩薩謝謝Roshi給他這樣的一個經驗 特別是當我們面對面的時候 在交流的時候 那個時刻的感動 我們菩薩覺得非常強而有力 那我們Roshi給他回應就是說 你就是在這個時候 就算是初學者也能夠體驗那個禪的那個滋味 以一個初學的身份 以目前這個姿態 然後在我們這個當下 然後做這樣的互動 獲得這樣的能量跟感動 然後要繼續下去

[65:37]

Zen Center San Francisco Zen Center which used to be next to the Go Club it's not there anymore we moved to a different place so we have a beautiful center in San Francisco And we have another one in Marin County over the Golden Gate Bridge. So this is the Farm Zen Temple. And we have a Zen Farm Temple. We have farm Zen temple here.

[67:11]

Right here. That's what I'm saying. This is farm Zen center and we have a Zen farm center. And then south of San Francisco, about 200 kilometers, in deep mountains, we have a monastery. And some time ago, I was the abbot of that monastery. And in the summer at that monastery, in the winter we just had practice periods. And it's closed to guests. Like when you have retreats here. We have two, three month practice periods. But in the summer we open up the monastery and let guests come. 所以我们在夏天的时候会开放让大众进来参访。 One time I was having breakfast with one of the guests.

[68:18]

有一天我就跟我们的一个访客在吃早餐。 When I was the abbot. 当我那时候是住持的时候。 And the guest said to me, are you a student here? 那访客就说,你是这边的学生吗? And I said yes. 我说是啊是啊是啊。 And I am. I was also the abbot. Then later she found out that I was the abbot. And she was very happy that I said I was a student. I'm always a student. So my teacher's book is Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. When you really study Zen, you're always a beginner. What's Zen today? You don't need to know. Like Bodhidharma.

[69:38]

The emperor said to Bodhidharma, who is this standing in front of me? And the great teacher said, don't know. Also, Suzuki Roshi said when he came to America, he liked American Zen students. Very much. He said, you want a book? He said, in Japan, people know a lot about Buddhism. Their cup is full. Okay. It's hard to get anything in. In America, people don't know anything about Buddhism.

[70:39]

So it's very easy to teach them. Unfortunately, now we know a little bit. Anything else you want to bring up? Yes. Yes. I want to express my gratitude. It is indeed a pleasure to have you here. Thank you. I have a couple of questions. Why did you, at age 23, become a Zen student? Number one. Number two, you were mentioning many times about spiritual identity.

[71:40]

And your identity is changing when you go into different environments. And I would like to know and understand if you can elaborate and to tell us why your spiritual identity is changing. I have my own thinking and thoughts. I would like to match with yours if my thought is correct. Really appreciate. Thank you. Thank you for the two excellent questions. Maybe do the... Can you remember the second? I can't remember. Do them both. Do them both. Okay, you can say it yourself. First of all, I want to say thank you very much to Mr. Reederson for coming here. He gave us a lot of inspiration, personally. Because when he first started, he said that the Bodhisattva is by our side.

[72:43]

I agree very much. I just asked two questions. The first one is, why did he become a Zen student when he was only 23 years old? 那我们Roshi的回应是,这是两个非常棒的问题。 So I think I can remember the questions. The first one is, I think she said, why did I become a Zen student or why did I want to become a Zen student? Okay? At this point, I would say, I have, I could tell many stories of why

[73:46]

Maybe when I first started being at the Zen Center, if you'd asked me why, I would have just three stories. Now I have unlimited stories. But none of these stories, nor all of them together, account for how we actually come to the Buddhadharma. The way we actually come to the study Zen is inconceivable. And I'll stop there for that to be translated. 好 那我们Roshi对第一个问题的回应呢 就是说 以现在的我来回应这个问题的话 我会说 我会有很多很多的故事 针对这个问题 我有很多很多的故事来回应跟分享 那如果说你早年问我的时候 可能只有两三个故事 所以我想说的重点是说 其实没有任何一个方法 可以把我这些所有的故事的全部都跟 那就是我第一個回應。

[75:16]

However, I can still tell you, maybe, I don't know how much time we have, but I can tell you some stories. 但是呢,我还是可以分享一些重要的故事。 One story is, I read stories about Zen monks, Chinese and Japanese Zen monks. 那其中一个故事就是我常常会读一些禅师的故事, 不管是日本的禅师故事或者是中国禅师的故事。 Particularly stories about when they were treated with cruelty. And how they were able to respond with compassion. For example, there's one story is A warrior came to visit his Zen master. Warrior?

[76:21]

Samurai? A warrior. One of the Taipei metro stops is called Warrior Forest. 台北的捷运站有一个叫做武士什么吗? Once a samurai, a warrior, came to visit a Zen master. And he said, Master, please teach me the difference between heaven and hell. And the Zen monk said, Oh, I'm sorry. I can't teach you the difference because you are so arrogant and stupid. Then he dropped to his knees and said, thank you.

[77:45]

Teacher said, this is heaven. So when I heard stories like that, I thought, I want to learn that. I want to be like that. How can I do that? And some other stories were actually, yeah. So now, Probably it was a thief So I won't take my clothes off But that monk took his clothes off.

[79:02]

And threw them out the window. And all his other possessions threw them out the window. And said to the thief, please take all my possessions. Which I thought, wow. 我想說,哇,好厲害啊。 But then the monk said, I'm sorry I can't give you the full moon too. 然後呢,禪師跟那個人講說, 很抱歉,我不能夠給你滿月。 I thought that was very cool. And I thought, I want to be like that. It's possible, you know? Rather than going like this, go like this. But how do you learn that? If you don't know how, we need training. So I thought, where can I get training?

[80:03]

Maybe these Zen monks have training. So I thought, I want to do that training. Another story? I was in graduate school. In psychology. At a big university. And I had a brilliant advisor. He was so smart and he was very kind actually to me. And one day I saw him in McDonald's 有一天呢,我竟然在麦当劳看到他。 And he was tall, had a very big head. 他长得很高大,然后有很大的头。 And so he was sitting in McDonald's eating a hamburger like this.

[81:07]

他那时候就坐在麦当劳,然后像他这样的姿态上在吃汉堡。 A big tall body bent over the hamburger. 大大的头就这样子整个弯下来在那边吃汉堡。 And although I thought he was very smart, I thought I did not want to be his disciple. I wanted to study with a teacher who embodied the teaching. And I thought Zen teachers would do that. Also one day, I was driving my motor scooter to my house. And my house was in a... I had a very nice apartment, but I lived in a poor neighborhood by the university. And I drove by a bar. And outside the bar there were people who were drunk.

[82:29]

And they were like throwing up on the street. And punching each other. And harassing women. And I rode by in my motor scooter. And I thought I do not want to be with those people. I don't want them in my house. And I felt really bad that these suffering people I didn't want them in my life. But I could already feel that that was not the kind of person I wanted to be. So again, I thought maybe Zen will help.

[83:46]

Zen training will help me be able to not shrink back from sick, suffering people. Sick, suffering people. And Zen has helped me. I'm not that way anymore. Of course, I could become even more open, but Zen has helped me not try to get away from suffering people. I'm not afraid of suffering people. Does that make sense? So that's... I could keep going all night. The next part was the next point again. It was... My specialty is sitting in Chan halls.

[84:52]

I have spent hundreds of thousands of hours sitting in Zen halls. When I was a young man sitting in the halls, I would sometimes think, how strange that you're living like this. To be a healthy, strong young man and be sitting in a dark hall all day long, day after day, how strange. But little by little I realized that this is helping people that I'm doing this. Many people thanked me for being there doing this practice. They came from all over the place and said thank you for being here and doing this practice. So I continued.

[86:08]

And the world supports me. I'm supported to sit in that hall with people for 50 years. That's kind of my basic identity. But then if I go visit compassionate relief, I think, well, maybe I should be doing something different. Or if I go to some people who are helping poor people in another way, I think, well, maybe I should do that. So my identity is not like I'm a meditation instructor and that's it. If you want me to, I'll do other things. If I'm called. So yeah, and my spiritual identity changes by what people call for.

[87:31]

所以我的灵性的身份会根据其他人对我的要求,对我的邀请跟召唤做了相应的回应跟改变。 My spiritual identity is Bodhidharma. 所以我的灵性的身份就是菩提达摩。 Who is Avalokiteshvara. 那他身上有带着观世音菩萨的精神。 My job is to listen. 那我的工作就是聆听。 And when I listen, I change. My spiritual identity is constantly changing according to the situation. And I feel that's true Zen. That you're not fixed in your spiritual identity. Even though you may, like I still go every day, I still go to the Zen Do, but I'm not fixed.

[88:32]

People say, we don't want you to go there anymore. I might say, well, what do you want me to do? They say, we want you to come over here. I would give it up. But if they don't say that, I just keep going to the Zendo. I'm very happy to just go. It's a beautiful thing to go and sit like a Buddha. But if people say, Buddha, would you please come? The Buddha gives it up and goes. Buddha is not attached to being Buddha. Bodhisattvas are not attached to being Bodhisattvas. Bodhisattvas want to be Bodhisattvas so much That they give it up.

[89:52]

Like they say in Christianity, God so loved, he so loved his only son that he gave him to the world. I think Buddha has the same heart Again, I could go on Anything else tonight? Yes Do you have problems learning Buddha Dharma?

[90:55]

So have you encountered any problems learning Buddha Dharma or learning Chan? And how do you overcome them? The way I overcome it is by conversation with it. If a difficult phase comes, a difficult teaching, like a difficult person or a difficult sutra, I believe that my job is to meet that and interact with it. And by meeting and interacting with that difficulty, difficult teaching, difficult person, that practice will come alive. If I have pain in my body, that's difficult practice. That's difficult Buddha Dharma. But if I meet that pain with compassion and talk with it and listen to it, the Buddha Dharma comes alive.

[92:18]

This is my practice. And my particular personality is that I'm quite attracted to difficulty. I'm quite attracted to difficult teachings. In the West, there are some teachings which almost no one is studying. I should say, no Zen priests are studying. In other words, some scholars are studying certain areas of Buddha Dharma.

[93:19]

Scholars, but almost no Zen priests are studying. So I go to those things. It gives me life. It gives me life. Should I introduce the second half of your conversation before we proceed to the question? [...] So the second question that he is trying to address, because first of all he wants to learn the differences between just sitting Zikandaza and silent illumination.

[94:22]

because here we practice silent illumination. So this is one question, and then at the same time, what he learned here is that sometimes Master Hsuan-Yen will quote the poems by, for example, a China master such as Hongzhi Zhengjue, and the poems will teach us the state and also the method about how to practice silent illumination. And he wonders, in America, when you practice Japanese Zen, Zikandaza especially, do you also adopt similar methods? You mean, would we adopt some of the methods of Hongzhi? Or maybe using the poems as guidance? Yes! So, for example, one of the main poems we use by Hongzhi Zhongzhui is called Suo Chan... The acupuncture needle of Zazen. That's one of our main poems, which I study a lot with students.

[95:40]

And it starts out, the pivotal... The pivotal activity of all Buddhas, the active pivot of all ancestors. 祖祖基要,佛佛要基,之类的,对不对? 他们也是用坐禅针来指导他们的修行的。 Did you want to say something? No, no, she's raising the time reminder. There are five minutes left. The first two lines of Zhang Jue's poem are very important to me and to Dogen, or I should say to Dogen and me.

[96:47]

So Dogen, the founder of Japanese Soto, for him, Hongzhi Zhengzhui was a great teacher. So he wrote one of his essays is named after that poem. The name of the essay is Zuo Chan Yao Ji. The needle of Zazen. So at the end of the essay, he quotes Hongzhi's poem. 在他的论点后面,他写完这篇文章,最后他就是引述洪哲正觉禅师的说法。 So 坐禅是所有佛的最核心的部分。 And Dogen then, after quoting Hongzhi's poem, Dogen gives another poem which he wrote.

[98:16]

Which has the same name. And the first two lines are the same first two lines. So Dogen... understands that Zazen and Hongzhi understands that Zazen is the pivotal activity of all Buddhas. And what is this pivotal activity? It is the way Buddhas and sentient beings turn on each other. 那就是人,这个坐禅者,修行者跟众生互相的互动。 It's the way delusion and enlightenment turn on each other. 也是迷跟物之间的一个交错。 Zazen is not delusion. 那坐禅不是一个迷雾。 Zazen is not enlightenment. 他也不是物。 Zazen is how delusion and enlightenment pivot on each other. 所以坐禅就是迷跟物之间如何去翻转。 And the character, the Chinese character for pivot also means necessary, 要, necessary, essential, and pivot.

[99:38]

所以在中文的写法那个要,就是重要的那个要,讲的就是要机的那个意思。 But I like pivot because it shows that the essence of Zazen, the essence of Buddha activity, is the way Buddhists are working with people. And at the beginning of this essay, Dogen quotes another Zen story about Yao Shan Wei Yan. And the story is Yao Shan is sitting And a monk says, when you're sitting so still like this, what kind of thinking is going on? And he doesn't say no thinking is going on.

[100:47]

He says, what kind of thinking is going on in the sitting of the Buddha? Thinking, not thinking. In Buddha's sitting, thinking is not thinking. And not thinking is thinking. The essential activity of Buddha's swachana is thinking, not thinking, thinking, not thinking. It's not one or the other, it's the relationship. It's the face-to-face meeting of thinking and not thinking. So we use those examples to teach what just sitting is.

[101:52]

I think we're supposed to stop now, right? Thank you so much.

[102:05]

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