I'm mindful that we are approaching a sasheen and we'll be doing lots of sitting. I would like to begin discussing the precepts again, but with my thoughts somewhat focused on zazen practice, although I don't wish to restrict the discussion at all, I would like to start off in that vein of thinking of how we can study the precepts as another kind of zazen instruction, and then of course, at the same time, keeping in mind or realizing that the precepts show us ways to bring zazen practice into daily life. And I thought I might begin by perhaps, hopefully, a fairly short review of the first precept

[01:05]

of the Ten Great Precepts, the precept of not killing, and to quote Dogen's comments in his instructions on receiving and teaching the precepts, where he says, Light is not to kill. Let the Buddhaseed grow and succeed to the life of wisdom of the Buddha, taking no life. Let the Buddhaseed grow and succeed to the life of wisdom of the Buddha, taking no life.

[02:12]

Life is not kill. And as we've commented before, this precept of not to kill is just not to kill. And beyond just not to kill, we need not expect any other result. And this has also been expressed by the term zenki-gen, in other words, manifestation of the whole works. Not to kill is not to kill.

[03:18]

And it's also, I feel, well expressed by the first verse of the first chapter of Nagarjuna's Fundamental Verses on the Middle Way, where he says, Nothing, nowhere, ever exists that arises from itself, from another, from both itself and another, or from no cause. When you're sitting, when you're standing, when you're eating, whatever you're doing all day long, can you remember and find relevant the teachings of Nagarjuna that while you're living there, while you're existing there for this moment, apparently, that this existence

[04:25]

does not come from itself, from another, from both itself and another, and it also doesn't come without a cause. And beyond that, don't expect any other result. And that's life, and that can never be killed. It's changing all the time, but nothing can kill that life. It's changing too fast for anything to kill it. And this is also the same, as you could say, this awareness is the awareness of DCA. This is dependent co-arising, this is to stand in peaceful acceptance of dependent co-arising. And again, I like the little paragraph by Dogen describing this manifestation of the

[05:39]

whole works, describing this brilliant, ungraspable, unkillable life, which is just like riding in a boat. We raise the sails and we row with the oars and we work the rudder, but the boat gives us a ride, and without the boat, no one can ride. But still, we ride the boat, and our riding makes the boat what a boat is, and to study such a moment, I feel it's the same, as to say, study the precept of not killing. If you, in that story, take one side or the other, I think you violate that precept.

[06:41]

If you forget that you row and you raise the sails and you ride the boat, you don't assert your position. If you don't remember that the boat gives you a ride, and without the boat you couldn't ride, you don't recognize the rest of the universe. At the same time, you make the rest of the universe, and it makes you. That's the same as just to quietly sit in dependent co-arising, to accept dependently co-arising existence that's appearing in this moment and now gone. So this is the first precept. And Bodhidharma says, the self-nature is subtle and mysterious. In the realm of everlasting dharma, not giving rise to concepts of killing is called the

[07:47]

precept of not killing. So being out there in the boat, just doing our work, rowing and sailing away, the mind that just does that and recognizes the wonder of the boat and the sails and the water and the sky, the mind that just doesn't expect anything but that, is a mind in which the concept of killing does not arise. It's peaceful without denial. It's harmonious without excluding anything. So again, this is the first precept. With the emphasis on zazen practice. Now the second precept, the precept of not stealing, I offer again, Dogen's concise comment,

[08:50]

that in the suchness of mind and object, the gate of liberation is open. In the suchness of mind and object, the gate of liberation is open. Open. But you could also say opened, or opened, or is opening, those are all okay. I think you can experiment with what you think is most helpful. Another translation of this same expression by Dogen is, the self and the things of the world are just as they are. The gate of liberation is open.

[09:53]

This is the second precept of not to steal. So, here too, I think the precept is pointing to this Buddha mind, which is very peaceful, and nothing more than what's happening, but the dimension here that's being emphasized, I feel, is to look at the quiet mind, the peaceful mind of subject and object, or what is the suchness of mind and objects? What's the truth of mind and objects? Previous one seemed to me emphasizing more, what's the truth of causation? Meditating on dependent co-arising in a general way.

[11:04]

This is now dependent co-arising, particularly in terms of subject and object, or mind and object, or self and the things of the world. If we can tune into and sit with the suchness of mind and object, the door of liberation is open in that meditation, and this is not to steal. And therefore, in daily life, when we get into situations where there's a possibility of the illusion of stealing, it's a time to use a precept to remind us that this is an opportunity to turn around and look at what is the suchness of mind and object. Another way to put it is, as Buddha's mind regards Buddha's mind as the objective world,

[12:24]

this is suchness. As Buddha's mind looks at Buddha's mind as the objective world, this is suchness. How do you understand Buddha's mind looking at Buddha's mind as the objective world? I don't think of Buddha as regarding the objective world in any sense, unless there's some choice to do that, sort of like the moral of the situation, condescending to discrimination. Buddha's mind naturally looks at Buddha's mind. And Buddha's mind looks at itself as the objective world. In other words, Buddha's mind does not just look at Buddha's mind subjectively as itself,

[13:34]

it also looks at itself as the entire universe, and that's suchness. It's not suchness for Buddha's mind just to look at itself subjectively, but also for Buddha's mind naturally appreciates looking at itself by looking at the world. Whatever there's dualism in the world, fine. And in fact, there seem to be these dualisms and that's part of what the challenge of the second precept is, is in these dualistic situations of what's yours and what's somebody else's. That's not Buddha, that's the objective world of illusion, and the objective world of illusion in the world of things you can know about, in the world of objects, that's the world of illusion. The world of illusion, the world of the objective world, same thing. But when Buddha's mind looks at Buddha's mind as that world of illusion, that's suchness, and in that suchness we find liberation, and in that suchness we appreciate what this precept

[14:37]

is pointing us at. Is there a sense that there is a fact that things do appear to be there? I guess, I don't know if I transcribed that, but that's a corollary of this. The suchness of things is not just that they're empty. Okay? Suchness is not just that things are empty, suchness is also that things appear to arise. Right? And so the fact that things dependently appear, dependently co-arise as appearances, and they're emptiness, the identity of those two is suchness. Emptiness is not suchness. And even dependent co-arising by itself is not suchness because there can be dependently co-arisen birth and death, in other words, there can be dependently co-arisen things which we then dependently co-arisenly believe are there.

[15:40]

That's just misery. That's not suchness. Dependently co-arisen suchness is the wonderful harmony or identity between things that are appearing and that they're empty. But it's not just that they're empty, it's also they do appear. And when Buddha's mind looks at itself as this world of appearance, that's the suchness in which liberation is born, and this precept is pointing to that particular type of meditation, which we can come up with practical examples of, but I'm sort of starting with this fundamental instruction for this realm coming from Dogon. And here's another expression which I think we can discuss. I think we already have been discussing it. I think this comes from the Avatamsaka Sutra, I'm not sure. The great ocean does not hold dead bodies.

[16:47]

Have you heard that? The other one is, the great ocean excludes or expels or rejects dead bodies. Although the great ocean excludes or does not hold dead bodies, although that's true, it also does not see dead bodies. This is another instruction. It does not see dead bodies as objects either. This is another instruction about this precept. So one more thing I would just say for starters is that of course the precept of not stealing is the same as the precept of practicing giving. Same precept. The practice of giving is the same as the practice of not stealing. And giving, in some very fundamental way I feel, is just, as Dogon says,

[17:55]

to let your breakfast be your breakfast. To let your lunch be your lunch. That's what giving is. Giving is fundamentally letting things be what they are. You can let things be as they are, that's the greatest generosity. So, when we meet various treasures in this world, and actually this entire world is a treasure, if we can practice giving, if we can let it be, then, you know, look at that treasure, wow, that's it. You'll be totally impressed, totally, even enthralled perhaps by the treasure. That's enough. You're free, right there. But you move from that, mess around with it,

[18:55]

and then you're messing with this precept. You cannot steal anyway, but you can break this precept by veering away from just appreciation of what is. On the other hand, if we can just appreciate what is, the suchness of mind and objects, then the door of liberation opens, or is open on that meditation. So, I don't know, that's maybe enough for starters. Perhaps you want to have some discussion now. Yeah. The last sort of exclamatory statement, it sounds a lot like what Sid was talking about yesterday. Which was the last exclamatory statement. Wow! You know, that's sort of appreciating, but it sounds a lot like, you know, that's beautiful.

[20:01]

Which, we had some problems with yesterday, so I'm wondering, what's distinguishing the two differentially? Well, my mind is junked to left brain, right brain, okay? Some people say that right brain is, that is wow, and left brain is wow. So, if it's possible to say wow and let it go at that, then let it be that, and maybe that's not a sin. Maybe that's when the figure skater just does it before they realize that they did it. But there may be a part of our being that can just say wow and let it go at that, without denigrating it by saying that is wow. But just an exclamation. Wow! Wow! Or, you know, not even oh wow, but oh, wow, oh.

[21:04]

But not oh is wow is oh. You know, not that. That's kind of left brain time, making change of causation between an existent wow, an existent oh, an existent wow. But if we can just say, I think we're allowed to say wow, as long as we don't make anything out of it. Just don't make that wow something that's caused by itself and other, both, or neither. Just let it, just be, just talk. Then I think it's not even a sin. However, it's very hard to live that way, of course. The Harris-Bray deviation is basically we've sinned. I guess we have to judge that for ourselves, whether we've hedged on that in the slightest bit, whether we were, in the slightest bit, not content with wow. If we were, in the slightest bit, not content with oh. If we are, we should confess and say that I did it. I was a little bit not content with wow, or oh.

[22:08]

Or a lot not content. Or a lot not content, right. But what they say is that a little bit is like, it's kind of like a lot. Because that, the distance between heaven and earth is that little bit of not, of lack of content. That's the measure of the distance. I was going to get in the sense that the sinning is not that big a deal. No. But it's the repression on top of it. It's the repression on top of it that's a big deal, right. Because the sinning, if you recover on the sinning, and you just say it's a sin, that's not a sin. But if you say it's a sin, I wish I didn't do it. And that's, you're not appreciating the beauty of the sin. Which again, the beauty of a sin is that we don't think sin is beauty. Right. Sin is just sin. Not to kill is not to kill. And this precept is particularly emphasizing the subject-object dimension, which the first precept is bringing out too. The second precept is, can you translate this now into the objective realm?

[23:13]

The first one is a little bit, slightly more subjective. Just life itself. Kind of like, just sit. Now can you enter into subject-object relationships and recognize an external world and keep that same understanding of dependent co-arising and be contented with things appearing and let them be. Without all this fancy stuff we can do. And if you do mess off, then admit it. Catch yourself and say, that's breaking this precept. Not that I can steal anything really, but I broke this precept because I didn't appreciate the suchness for a moment there. I couldn't stand the suchness. Okay. That's pretty good though, then. Sounds like it. Yes. Yeah. I have a practical question about

[24:15]

how to... I find it difficult sometimes to keep in mind all the different precepts as I'm going through the day. It seems like a lot to kind of juggle with. It's not that the precepts are... The various things that you have to work with going through the precepts are all sorts of different practices that you can do. I'm not always sure about how to keep them all in mind. But we have this short course, right? For all the precepts. It's called Just Sitting. So just don't move and keep all the precepts. However, you should check out whether you're really not moving by looking at the precepts. So you can only take one at a time. Not killing is just not killing, but not killing is also ten precepts. Each one of these precepts is the other nine

[25:20]

because each one of these precepts is that same Buddha mind. So just practice not moving and then check out you're not moving by the practice of receiving the precepts. Once you receive the precepts sincerely, once you vow to practice those precepts, they'll pop up for you. And then use Buddha's teachings about what these precepts mean to use these precepts to check out your zazen and see that your zazen isn't just some kind of solipsistic denial project. Okay? So check out and see if you think, for example, the first precept. See if you think in these ways that were, you know, like you make the world or that the world makes you. Think if you think that you're caused by yourself or caused by another and these kinds of things. See if you found those ways of thinking. If you do, you're probably breaking the rest of the precepts too and also you're dreaming about practicing zazen. You're not doing your zazen practice anyway if you're not understanding these precepts.

[26:23]

But to go around and try to think of all ten, you know, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, that might not be very good for your... that might make you sort of upset. So it might be better just to practice just sitting all day and use one precept a month or something. Concentrate on one precept a month. Check yourself out. I don't know, different people would be different things. But I think that somehow there's some great gift about stealing, I think, in our society that a lot of opportunities arise for us to use that precept to help us practice meditation because of our sense of, you know, especially living in a sangha where it's such a big issue about what belongs to you and what doesn't. It's so clear that it's an issue. And then how do you figure it out? Well, you look at it, you notice the dilemmas,

[27:26]

and then those dilemmas point you at a... if you understand this teaching or receive this teaching, then those dilemmas point you back to look at this teaching and if you look at this teaching, that teaching will inspire you to handle the dilemma. And I find if I think of this teaching, I don't become so impatient with the dilemma. Otherwise, I kind of get impatient with the dilemmas and want to sort of, you know, talk myself into some solution and, in a sense, break the precept because I'm too lazy or too impatient to return to Buddha and mind to try to figure it out, not to figure it out, but to practice it. So, I wouldn't think that you would necessarily, you know, have a lot of words in your head about these precepts, but just study the precepts and discuss the precepts and our understanding develops as we study them, but then use your understanding in the day to practice just sitting.

[28:27]

And then, as you practice just sitting, see what precepts come up. And then use just sitting to understand the precept and use the teachings to understand the precepts. So, if you have an example, a particular example, you can talk about it too. I don't know if that was helpful. Yeah, I just don't always trust that it will just pop up. You don't trust it to pop up? Don't trust it to pop up. Don't trust that. Isn't that what you were saying? Hmm? Isn't that what you were saying? Well, I mean, excuse me. When I say don't trust it to pop up, I mean don't just sit there and think they trust it to pop up. Practice just sitting. If you hold still, they will pop up. Then I would say that. But, if they don't pop up, then you probably... I wouldn't then trust that they're going to pop up. I would think there's something funny about my practice that they weren't popping up. Like that example of, what is it, Thoreau was saying,

[29:29]

if you sit still long enough, all you need to do is sit still long enough and in fact there's a spot in the forest and all the inhabitants, all the precepts, will present themselves to you in turn. So if the precepts aren't presenting themselves to you, then probably you're either haven't sat still long enough or you're not sitting still. So then I would think you would sit longer and look deeper into whether you're sitting still. And, again, if it goes on much longer than that and nothing presents itself, maybe you should go and ask for some instruction about, you know, check out with your friends to see if they think you're sitting still. Am I sitting still? And if they say, yep, just keep doing it and go back and do it some more. But they might say, no, actually you're wiggling a lot and if I was a brown squirrel, I wouldn't come anywhere near you. If I was the third precept, I'd stay far away.

[30:30]

Because you're moving too much. So see if you can go more. That's part of the shadow thing, right? You may think you're sitting still, but you're not really sitting still. So if you ask for feedback. Also, if you're sitting still, one of the inner characteristics of sitting still, if you're sitting still and you see people who aren't sitting still, you won't get upset about it. And if you're not sitting still and you see people who are moving, you get quite upset and think they're really turkeys. Or if you see people breaking these precepts, you really get upset with them rather than understanding and forgiving. So there's various, many, many ways to discover that perhaps we're kidding ourselves and then we have an opportunity to catch ourselves, confess and go on. Saturn, a wiser man. A woman. The practice of giving

[31:36]

is the same as letting go of being for that. The practice of giving is to let go of being on that. So I can imagine that being misunderstood as neglect or something like that. Neglect or, you know, what is the way by which we just want to decide when to leave alone and when not to leave alone. Could you give us an example? Like let's say somebody comes and asks you for something. You know? You know, when you see something and you want to leave it alone as-is. Giving is the same as letting things be as-is. Well, wanting to let them alone is not letting them alone. Letting them alone doesn't have any wanting in it. First of all. That's the first thing. So, something happens. Right? And you let it alone. That's giving.

[32:38]

Now, where's the neglect? Because the person should have gotten a word. At the point of letting them alone. Actually, letting them alone was a mistake. So, maybe letting them alone, letting them be is whatever the purpose. That's happening. That's what it means. So, you see a person there, perhaps a suffering person, and you let them suffer. In other words, your contribution to the situation is approximately the same as a dead person would contribute. Right? Except you're not dead. And living people always add something. You know, usually add something, because they can't stand, they don't trust that just being there and letting things alone is enough. So, they think, well, I got to do something. Well, okay, that's that.

[33:40]

But letting alone is just to let it be what it is. And then, if you can do that, then if you should say something, you will say something right after that. So, letting something be does not mean actually letting it be comfortable and not worrying about it. It does not. When Avalokiteshvara hears the suffering, that's all Avalokiteshvara does, just hears the suffering. That's the compassion at that moment. When Avalokiteshvara doesn't hear the suffering and say, well, I should do something, Avalokiteshvara hears the suffering. First of all, you listen. That's compassion, first of all. Then you might make a peanut butter sandwich after that. But making a peanut butter sandwich and giving it to a person is not letting it be. No, it sure is. It is.

[34:41]

If somebody says, I want a peanut butter sandwich, first of all, you hear it and you say, they're asking for a peanut butter sandwich. That's all you do. That's it. Then, if you're joyful at the idea of making a peanut butter sandwich, then it's a fact that you're joyful of making a peanut butter sandwich. And you let that be. You let it be that you have a joyful feeling of making a peanut butter sandwich. Now, if there's peanut butter and bread, then it's a fact that you make a sandwich. And so on. Each one of those things is letting it be. But again, if you flinch from any moment like that, then I think you've got a problem here. You know, we have a problem. We're not, again, living in that fantastic dynamic life of where you assert your position, of I'm hearing somebody say peanut butter sandwich and you recognize there's somebody else over there saying that.

[35:45]

And that's enough. People can't even do that most of the time. They want to veer off from that and do something, you know, some role-taking thing like, you know, I don't know, I've got to do something to make myself feel like I'm not being negligent. I can't just sit here and listen to this and feel the tension of this situation and wait patiently for it all to blow up and be in a whole new world where I'm now making peanut butter sandwiches. It's hard to live in that world. But that's enough. But that's incredibly difficult. We can barely do it. And if we can somehow stand to face reality, the way things actually are, the way things actually are is extremely difficult to accept. Because there you are, you know, rowing and all this stuff, and also, that's not all that's happening. The boat's also giving you a ride, and you couldn't do it without the boat, and also the boat's not there without you. It's very contradictory and paradoxical and doesn't fit with our idea of things.

[36:46]

There may even be some pain there with adjusting to reality. That's a big job. That's enough. And if we can't do it, even that we forgive. That's giving. So the practice of suchness is the practice of giving, is the practice of suchness? Yes. The practice of suchness comes in all these varieties, like it comes in ten precepts, it comes in six paramitas. There were different ways to talk about just sitting. But if we just say just sitting, people misunderstand what just sitting is, so we explain it in terms of six paramitas, or ten precepts. Now, of course, the paramitas mean you go beyond giving. You don't just go along with your idea of giving, you completely go beyond giving, you go beyond ethics, you know, all this stuff. And also you go beyond the precepts in the usual way. And all these cases are ways for you to understand Buddha's mind.

[37:49]

And also, these precepts and these perfections, we practice just sitting in order to understand them. The Bodhisattva precepts and the six perfections were there, being transmitted, and the practice of meditation is so you understand what they're about. So you don't sort of like going along saying, oh, they're just what I think they are. They're not what they think they are, but what we think they are is part of what they are, because that's part of suchness. And again, in the practice of giving, when there's a joy there, and this joy can include even the thought of, I wonder if I'm being negligent. But when you hear, I wonder if I'm being negligent, that's another request for a peanut butter sandwich that you're hearing. And you just hear, when you hear, I'd like a peanut butter sandwich,

[38:49]

it's the same as when you hear, I wonder if I'm being negligent. In both cases, Avalokiteshvara is just hearing. And that's compassion. And the one who's asking for the peanut butter sandwich and the one who's saying, I wonder if I'm being negligent, they are being heard. They are safe. And there's joy in both the situations, which sustains that kind of practice. And that kind of practice is also up to be tested. Look at Taosahara. Are the plants growing? Are the paths being swept? Are the students loving each other? Are the students maturing? Are the students aware of what they're doing? Are they in denial? Well, if they are, maybe we're kidding ourselves about this practice of suchness. Maybe we're not really totally dedicated to it. Which one of us isn't? Who's holding up the show? You know. But it looks like, you know, people are doing pretty well

[39:52]

because there is a lot of love here and we do keep the paths clean and so on and so forth. You can test it. It's okay to test it. And we have peanut butter sandwiches here too, right? More than I'd like sometimes. And we make them for ourselves, which is okay. What? Charles? So, if we hear somebody wanting a peanut butter sandwich and then we notice our desire to make a peanut butter sandwich coming from the flinching in the face of suchness and we're kind of aware of that and we still make the peanut butter sandwich by being aware of the whole process at the same time. We know it's coming from delusion and all this but kind of like the whole process we're sort of aware that we're doing it but we're doing it anyway. Well, it's kind of a little bit like Chris' example with his sister, okay?

[40:53]

You don't have to... You don't have... You can recover in the middle of making the sandwich. If you notice at the first stroke of peanut butter that you're doing this to get something, okay? You can drop it right there. You can catch yourself right there and return to suchness of making a peanut butter sandwich. You don't have to make the whole process you know, like 55,000 times in that process of making the peanut butter sandwich to each time, each stroke of the butter you continue trying to get something trying to get something, trying to get something. It doesn't have to be the repeated moment after moment during the whole process of doing this breading. You can catch it once and drop it and then for the rest of time it's just pure suchness. Like that guy in that movie Diva, you know? The Zen of buttering bread. If as you're buttering the bread you know, halfway across the baguette you notice something hey, I'm getting famous, this is good. You can drop it right then and keep going. Or you can sin every single moment and accumulate innumerable confessions

[41:54]

while you're spreading the bread. That's okay too. The action is not even that important to serve. You can continue it or not continue it. Right. You can spread it out. Right, you can stop halfway across the bread and say hey, I'm not going to continue this travesty. This obscenity do you say? This sinning. This sinning. I'm stuck right there, that's it. Now, can anybody finish this without with no gaining idea? Could someone come forth and you know practice Zazen while making this peanut butter sandwich? You know, get somebody else to do it. You can't. We need a peanut butter sandwich made here. And again, do you enjoy tuning into Buddha's mind? And Buddha's mind is a contented mind. His mind is not trying to get anything out of life. Life is enough. Just not killing it is enough. It's good enough. And now it's gone. Here's another one. Grace? I think my question is stepping back a little bit

[42:58]

from asking it all. She's a part of what I want people to start as a peer or a witness. And if we turn our back if we decide I don't want to witness this it changes the reality of whatever it is when it happens. It can be simply witnessing. I guess my question is what's the obligation to witness, to stand still, to see? Is that the same? I mean, is it to sit still and actually keep your eyes open when you don't want to see? I sometimes have trouble answering questions when I don't... I mean, when I feel yes I sometimes feel like I maybe not understand your question. Avalokiteshvara I don't think has to do anything but listen. And also cannot do anything

[43:58]

less than listen too. I mean, Avalokiteshvara is not functioning when we don't listen. So, for witness. That's all Avalokiteshvara does. It isn't like Avalokiteshvara listens and then does something. The listening is the compassion. And then that's all over and there's another cry and it listens again. But you can't, I guess, so what the second precept means is you can't not listen, you can't not see. That's right. It's not OK to close your eyes it's not OK to close your ears. You don't have to put peanut butter on bread so you cannot close your ears. That's right. And making peanut butter or making a peanut butter sandwich is another form of listening. It's just listening. You can't take a break from listening because then you're taking a break from being responsive. Like a wind bell, you know. A wind bell is just sitting there. It doesn't say, OK, I should be making peanut butter sandwiches but as soon as the wind comes from the peanut butter direction,

[44:58]

it moves. It doesn't like get affected by the request and then think I should do something. It is just affected by the request. That's all it does. And then if the request pushes it further, it swings further. And then because it swung that far, it swings back. But that's just all part of it. Yes? Right. That person can't work on slides. I saw you move. Should I do anything more? No. See, I think I did. I don't know who's next. We're here before you. Go ahead, Carolyn.

[46:00]

Peanut butter sandwiches I was just in these rapid steps that came out the other night when we were talking about people and reflections and also talk with Pam and other people around here. The other side of all the pain from what happened to my parents, the pain of what a parent has done to their children. And I think thousands of people that I've been able to talk to which comes to a full line. But this feeling of incredible sadness about ways that frustrate children, not wanting the pain, especially my daughter and her sister who were so traumatized in their life. And I think that Tom and David have been speaking about the face of all this a lot in recent times. And I said, you know, so one of the patients

[47:02]

and I was looking through and the word evil popped off of the page. And, um, I can't remember the exact word, but it came about in the enthusiasm section. And it's, um, just something about the strength of an open mind that doesn't have to consume all the previous evil and harvest an ocean of merit. And, um, so consuming previous evil just like that. And it's been sitting in my mind that it's impossible to do that. And how does that relate to, uh, what we're talking about this morning? Well, um, I guess my first response is whether it's possible or not, I want to do it. Even if it's impossible,

[48:03]

I still want to do it. Primarily because other people who I love tried it. And it looks like it was possible, but even if it's not, they tried it. And even if it's not, I'm going to try it. I'm going to go for it. I'm going to try to, if you want to, consume all my past evil by the practice of suchness. That's what it says in, uh, in this particular text that I'm using. That's what it says in the Lotus Sutra. If you just sit upright in correct bodily posture and practice suchness, in other words, contemplate suchness depending or arising from all the hindrance due to our, you know, endless karma will melt away. But you got to do it, you know, completely. You can't hold back. That's not the practice of suchness. You can't have any reservation. However, you can, you can try and have reservation and admit that you have reservation and notice and admit that

[49:03]

and go on. But we make a commitment to a hundred percent practice of suchness. In other words, to be completely in accord with what's happening, to completely trust the teaching of dependent co-arising, to completely sit as though this is not caused by something else, it's not caused by itself, it's not caused by both, and it's not without cause. To just be like that boat riding in a boat. To live that way completely without batting an eyelash, without backing down. Try that practice of sitting and see if it does consume that mountain of, that ocean of karmic hindrance. See if it works. And if you think you did it completely and it's not working, then see if your friends think you're doing it completely. And if they do, and you do, see if some other friends think you do. But usually, as soon as you go to ask your friend, you notice you're not complete. You're holding back a little.

[50:04]

Or maybe your friend will say, well, could you try a little longer to sit a little longer? So, I don't know if it's possible to accomplish the Buddha way. I really don't, because I haven't accomplished it. But I'm getting enough support and encouragement and inspiration from you guys to keep trying it. And it says that you can consume all this stuff and become free of it without denying it, without getting rid of it. The suchness of the whole thing actually is the doors being opened. And in terms of our relationships with others, between our mind and the objective world, if we see the suchness of it, we'll be released from all this, all this, all this massive evil.

[51:07]

But it's fairly likely that if we try to practice it, there'll be some denial, so we'll be dreaming about practicing it for some period of time. Okay? Let's be open to the fact that we might be dreaming that we're practicing loving. Okay? And then when somebody says, you know, I think you're dreaming of practicing loving. We might be dreaming that we heard them say that. And then we have a dream about what that means. We just keep trying until we hit the mark. And we see how it works when it hits the mark. Deep down we know, we know, you know, we're looking for it, so when we hit it, we're going to know it. We're going to be encouraged. I'm saying that, I don't know if anybody, I don't know if that's encouraging or not. Is it encouraging? Yeah.

[52:13]

Yeah. Sometimes it's helpful to me when I can sense that you were involved in me thinking that I had so much to deal with, and that's something that I couldn't have accomplished if it wasn't for you. And I have done so much in the past to do that. Sometimes you risk it. Yeah, right. I think so. Well, I thought you were going to say, sometimes I, you know, I'm losing my sense of humor when I think that I've done so much good. But why isn't it working now? I think that's pretty funny too. Sort of like the story I always liked about an old Dakota teacher saying that human beings think that they caught the extinction,

[53:15]

almost caught the extinction of the buffalo, but actually the buffalo, the grandfather buffalo said that human beings didn't treat the buffalo people properly, in the proper manner they would do. Yeah, you guys, it wasn't that you almost caught the extinction. We're going to stop helping you guys. So don't be so, don't think you're so powerful when you're out here that you can do this much. Right, right. Well, it's like they're riding the boat, right? If we behave ourselves, the buffalo will be, you know, running around in the prairies fertilizing the ground, happily pouncing around. They'll join us here in the world, you know, and they'll meet us. But if we don't behave ourselves, they might go away. But it isn't that we drove them away entirely. We were, we were part of the story though. But they also decided to leave. But the idea that we were, you know, the idea, the story that I, you know, we are so powerful, Right. that we can cause the extinction of these people. Right, or that we can drive a boat.

[54:16]

Yeah. That we can, that we can sail a boat rather than the boat that sails us. This is, again, it's missing the suchness of, of mind and object. It's missing the suchness of our relationship with each other and with buffalo. And it's also, I guess, not a slight distinction between sex, I would guess. Yeah. Yes. How many of you have ever been in a room with a buffalo in your life? I haven't. Have you ever seen it? No, you haven't. I didn't see it. You didn't understand what she was doing when she walked over to you? I thought she was saying I raised my hand and you didn't see me. And I was saying now I see you is there anything else? And she didn't say anything. Were you, was they calling on you? What? Were they calling on me?

[55:16]

Yeah. So, they weren't actually asking you to speak up? No, I just wondered how she got my attention. I was wondering if she wanted to talk about something and she said she didn't. And I'm not saying that a woman bothers me. Death has shut me in and I can't stay. So, even though I took the courage to be recognized as a woman, it's kind of hard to where I can live,

[56:16]

stay, because my, my body shut down. So that's the next step. you know, what I felt like doing was just walking around so that everybody would say, see me? See me? And that's sometimes what it takes to get us to see you. You have to sort of say do you see me? So it's kind of like, that's part of the trickiness of it. Sometimes that's what you have to do. But then if you were asking to say, okay I see you, what do you want to say? Then I can't say it yet. And that's okay because you're sort of come, a little bit of after effect from what happened before. You're still somewhat reacting to that previous feeling that you sent. I guess. Whatever the amnesia is and whatever drops down

[57:19]

a little bit more then I can't think. Right. And I understand that so I give you I give you the space to go through that. Do you have anything to say? No, I was going to say that it's okay to ask for someone to see you even if you don't have anything to say. Right. That's what I that's what I thought you were doing. But I checked to see if you if there was more than that. You haven't seen my hand. I didn't see your hand, no. This is very interesting. That you see everybody else's hand and you never happen to see mine or you never think that mine's clean. I have to come over here and do this. Do you see my fucking hand? Yeah. I saw it before too when you stood in front of me. I mean why do you see other people other people don't have to do this. They just kind of go like this or whatever they do. They don't do this.

[58:21]

No, that's not true, Cohen. Over here, it's not true. That's true over there, maybe. But I've seen you raise your hand. You know, you did it I saw you do it a few minutes ago. I saw you do it three or four times just now. I saw it. And you're saying other people don't have to do it? Well, I mean they don't have to I do a little that's not recognized. You don't recognize that. But other people do this and you recognize them. They don't have to get up in your face to be recognized. No, it's not true. It's not true over here. Over here, that's not true. I miss other people's hand too if they don't if I don't see them. I don't see them. But yesterday you missed mine. I miss mine too. Sometimes we try to say something and he ends the class before I get to say it. So I don't agree with your perception that I see other people's hands and I don't see yours. I do sometimes

[59:22]

see your hand. For example, when you stood right in front of me and went like this I saw your hand. And just now when I was looking at you and you put your hand up, I saw your hand. And just now when I was looking at you and you went like this I saw your hand. But if you do it like this and I'm looking over this way and I was generally speaking looking over that way if you go like this I didn't see your hand. And that's my perception. And I have seen your hand many times and called on you many times and generally speaking I think you're a pretty smart cookie and enjoy what you say and what you have to ask about. So I'm pretty happy when I see your hand and call on you. That's what it's like over here anyway. I don't know the exact subject of this but if you sit right in front of me it'll be more likely that I'll see you

[60:22]

even if you go like this. But I do always sit in the middle and right in the front and I raise my hand and yet I don't want if you sit in here you don't want to do this to the teacher, right? You've got to go like this. I kind of like it. You've got to go like this. Well, I like it that way. So the people in the back they kind of go like this. But also that other night when you raised your hand and I didn't see you you were sitting in front of me but you were sitting sideways. So I think if you sat right in front of me and you go like like this Anyway, it is true that some people I told you this before some people I'm kind of afraid of what their question is going to be and when they raise their hand I sometimes go What's going to be now? But you know in those people if I missed their hand I would think well, I'm repressing

[61:23]

I'm denying but I don't have that problem with you. You're really nice to me and you ask interesting questions and I appreciate it so it's just simply that you're out of my line of vision. That's what I think. That's my theory. You sit right in front of me and raise your hand. It always feels personal. Almost everybody in the room has had the experience and it always feels personal who doesn't want to call on me today. Yes. You're so kind. In some of the copies I was reminded of a story that I was told by a follower of Muktananda and what Muktananda used to do is completely ignore the story to the point where she would go into a group of people and she was a member of that group she would give everyone else a gift and it mattered. And what he would do is do this. And I told him

[62:25]

what we had interpreted there was meaning that she could not see him. She could not see part of herself in what people were doing for themselves. And she kept on demanding that he see her when in fact she could not see him. That's what I'm curious about now. Muktananda's brutal, beautiful, glamorous story. We love suchness. We hate it of course. It's fine as long as there's somebody else who's suchness. I really want this

[63:53]

to come out right and I know it's not going to happen. Oh no. It's always a good night feeling. I was really grateful for Pam's courage yesterday and her act of bravery to bring up a sort of concept and expression which was to say how difficult it is to bring up things because of how we've been treated earlier in our life and how we're already set up to be afraid of what's going to happen to us when we try to be honest. As she did that what was happening over here watching it was painful

[64:58]

because I don't think I've had a chance to utter things that you need to cut into her but the very kind of thing that she was trying to express about her experience with her parents and it was very painful and I've been making up excuses since then about why you did what you did but I don't know how much I want to say but it was all clear earlier in all those things but I thought that maybe you were trying to get her out of a state she was in and move her to a different state which was more rage it also looked like you were experiencing your own pain in a very similar

[66:00]

situation but the part that hurt me I thought was that you were cheating her out of completely expressing her feelings about her mom's experience cutting into her in the way that you did but I was hoping that you could share with us what actually happened at that moment do you know which moment I'm talking about? you don't? when you corrected Pam about her to precisely say what actually happened to her when she said she was very bloody but she had already finished what she had to say didn't she? I'm only bringing this up because it felt like the very thing that she was trying to do was to be able

[67:00]

to express something that she didn't or dared to do before because her experience was very I think you said it already I just heard you say that before she could get it out I cut into her and I thought she said what she had to say and she stopped and then I responded why did you respond to me well let's get the first thing straight first shall we? did I stop her before she expressed what she had to say? my suffering is

[68:04]

greater than yours greater than yours just from that minute that you backed off from me did you, were you really evil I was I also don't know exactly what was going on I felt out there and I find time to time you stayed in the window and you kind of did express to me what you were talking about but I didn't well I still would like to clarify the first point that I cut that I stopped her before she could express herself I think she I thought she did express herself and that and I asked her if she wanted to interact more at that time and she said she didn't so I thought that then I asked her I asked her if she wanted to talk more at that time and she said no the very first thing that happened as she was expressing herself was the words that I remember was don't say that that's not what happened that's what happened to me or be clear

[69:06]

about what you're saying that was the very first response it was done in a tone it was very upset and that's the part I mean I'm just being upset because it was very painful to witness this and what was going on while you were responding well I guess we should try to clarify what happened what happened what did people see what I remember was that I said that I was trying to express something difficult we shouldn't oversimplify how difficult it is to say what happens when what to say what's difficult what's painful because in my case my experience was that when I did that I stood up and said my truth that I was beat up and bloodied and my

[70:07]

recollection is that when I said is that really what happened to me and I said no and he said well that's what happened to me and I then said he said he said that's what they did to me and I said then as I recall not in such a loud voice but I said at least somebody well it's truth they didn't convince me so then at that point he said do you want to say anything else and I took my head and said do you not want to say do you not care do you not want to say anything else and I said don't want to say anything else my feeling initially

[71:08]

was one of am I lying am I exaggerating am I saying something that's not true here and my response to that immediate response to that then and later during the day was I ought to go apologize because I said something that wasn't really true and obviously tapped some pain for them and so I didn't go apologize and as I thought about it I thought I'm not going to apologize because I wasn't lying and if I was lying that lying would have meant I knew what happened and I exaggerated it in fact I did

[76:25]

but it wasn't where it was but it was between me and Pam and that's part of what happens at Zen Center is that if I feel close to somebody and I have an interaction with them and they trust me a lot and I know that I'm committed to them I can do things with them that they can handle but if somebody else who doesn't feel that kind of trust with me sees it they think if that happened to me I would be totally devastated so then it frightens them so the question is whether in public I should do things with people who I have close relationship with and people who don't feel that much trust are going to witness and be frightened away by that's kind of a dilemma and I'm not sure what's best because sometimes it's good for the people who assume that that was a devastation to talk to the person and find out that's part of their relationship I saw Suzuki do that with some people and I was horrified but he only did it

[77:26]

with people he was really close to like he you know beat people up in public but these were his close students and he did that way yes I wasn't very high by the way I have the trust trend in all common people I don't

[78:38]

know that I felt him diminishing my suffering or not what I experienced was the main thing was I thought am I lying that was what I thought was did I just make that up or am I saying this for dramatic effect and the way in fact that it played into my life is that I always was told stop being so self indulgent do that stuff so that's what came up is that what I'm doing am I making this up and what I ended up feeling was no even though

[79:39]

I couldn't say yes I remember being bloody and now why it didn't make me feel like I was lying I don't know it may not be true that's what I thought about it I don't know I can't remember but the best I can say is that somehow even though it was a comfortable situation for me to be in am I exaggerating and also to feel Rev's anger and also to see his hurt both of his confusion I saw very clearly oh this is I mean on the one hand it was this is it could have been seen as my pain is worse than yours but in a way what I felt was ouch me too and in some way

[80:39]

I think that that helped me although I went through the scenario was certainly possible that I could have felt like God I just really I'm exaggerating again this isn't true and I should I'm terrible because I was making something up I didn't feel that and I actually I actually didn't feel that right away because I said that so me too but I don't and I don't understand all of how that dynamic all worked that made me end up feeling I ended up feeling quite empowered not disempowered I ended up feeling like he came out and said is that true? and I my thought was no I actually said no but then I what happened I don't know why but what happened

[81:39]

was I said me too and I sort of felt like I don't care this is how I feel why that worked the way it did I don't know that that's what happened I so I was saying basically me too and you said me too and that was basically in a sense my what I was saying to you was me too and I guess I was saying if your you see apart from your parents and my parents are right we are so much self indulgent so we have to find some way to tell them about our pain without forgiving that they're in pain too so we have to find a way to do that and one way to find it for our friends to say me too and then you say me too until we get the message that it's

[82:39]

very great where it's coming from the other thing that you were saying which also you said later this morning was to me that I think one of the things that was really painful for me was this is what I realized most of the jokes on this morning was saying you're not being very clear you have to clear up what really happened and how you really feel and that was sort of the message that I got yesterday during this discussion was what really happened and to hear that to recognize that I don't know is painful and also but I also didn't feel like it wasn't okay I actually don't know I feel okay that you went away with a question I think that's okay and you came back with how you feel I think it's okay for a while is that true okay yes it was I did yes okay that was

[83:40]

what I asked of you and also I wanted you to also know that even if it is true and even if it was real blood then you've got a bloody brother because that same thing happened to me and we're both here to say so so there's some there's success we survived me too so but I wonder about Regina how she's doing she ran away oh god I just like to point out that suffering doesn't always have words and sounds because somebody doesn't say something for them it's not visible you think that they're not suffering it's not a good assumption no I don't know it's really part of life but you

[84:42]

don't necessarily say so out loud not in the in whatever way it's expressed it might be pretty hard to see let me ask Trudy how do you feel do you feel supportive in this because I mean do you feel like you're having to defend being real authentic and spontaneous no I feel okay because I'm up for this kind of thing I feel a little bit embarrassed to get all this attention Leslie's going to get mad at me sorry Leslie anyway I only feel a little bit embarrassed to get all this love that's all you do then okay yeah but I'm getting put on the spot for every tiny little thing I do but I'm up for it you know that's the advantage and disadvantage of my role

[85:44]

is that if I make little mistakes I get called on them or big mistakes of course actually big mistakes people can hardly believe so little ones I get called on or not even mistakes but just if I really let go sometimes with a lot of energy it has to be just right if it's a little bit off it can be questionable so I'm being questioned and I feel okay about that although it's a little bit scary especially if the verdict came out against me well like one time Leslie intervened in a discussion with someone that I had and she ended up saying well I think I made things worse I went and said to this person and that person and she said that and she said that and she thought she made the situation worse and I said I don't think that either one of us can hold you to a mistake

[86:44]

when her heart was right so sometimes we miss we don't always we just get in there and sometimes we miss and I just want to say that maybe you're doing this with all of us you may miss sometimes but I think we have to give you the freedom to and yet I'm glad everybody is exploring this or saying whatever they need to say but I want you to feel free to miss too do you want to say something thank you thank you

[87:58]

and I'm glad you're here and I'm glad that you are here and I thank you and I thank you for being here and I thank you for being here I mean this is painful for me because this particular event happens

[88:58]

to bring out my own painful interactions with you and they're not comfortable so it's painful to know that you didn't have a close enough relationship with family and you can do this sort of thing but you can't do everything I had a difficult time trusting that what you did was intentional that the entire thing was intentional within your image I'm sure that you could just go ahead and do that other thing and that would be great but I'm sorry that it was true that I don't trust it yet and that if you did that with me I would probably walk down the dais down and I don't know how

[90:16]

to I realized today that I was trying to figure out, I was thinking that if I could figure out what I was repressing, denying, that my headache would go away. And I kind of realized this morning that actually all I had to do was, there's actually very little that I can do in trying to get rid of my headache by doing certain things or trying to see what I'm denying in a hurry so that I can get rid of my headache. And all of a sudden it's just this. Yeah, it doesn't help. But when I figured that out, my headache was gone.

[91:19]

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