I'm mindful that we are approaching a sasheen and we'll be doing lots of sitting. I would like to begin discussing the precepts again, but with my thoughts somewhat focused on zazen practice. start off in that vein of thinking of how we can study the precepts as another kind of zazen instruction, and then of course, at the same time, keeping in mind or realizing that the precepts show us ways to bring zazen practice into daily life. I thought I might begin by perhaps, hopefully, a fairly short review of the first precept of the ten great precepts, the precept of not killing, and to quote Dogen's comments in the

[01:28]

in his instructions on receiving and teaching the precepts where he says, Life is not to kill. Let the Buddha seed grow and succeed to the life of wisdom of the Buddha taking no life. and succeed to the life of wisdom of the Buddha, taking no life. Life is not killed this precept of not to kill is just not to kill.

[02:49]

And beyond just not to kill we need not expect any other result. And this has also been expressed by the term zenki-gen. In other words, manifestation of the whole works. Not to kill is not to kill. And it's also, I feel, well expressed by the first verse of the first chapter of Nagarjuna's Fundamental Verses on the Middle Way, where he says, nothing, nowhere, ever exists that arises from itself, from another, from both itself and another, or from no cause.

[03:54]

This is the same spirit for me as not to kill, the same spirit as just sitting. Can you feel that? When you're sitting, when you're standing, when you're eating, whatever you're doing all day long, can you remember and find relevant the teachings of Nagarjuna that while you're living there, while you're existing there for this moment apparently, that this existence does not come from itself, from another from both itself and another, and it also doesn't come without a cause. And beyond that, don't expect any other result. And that's life, and that can never be killed. It's changing all the time, but nothing can kill that life.

[05:01]

It's changing too fast for anything to kill it. And this is also the same as you could say, this awareness is the awareness of DCA. This is dependent co-arising, this is to stand in peaceful acceptance of dependent co-arising. And again, I like the the little paragraph by Dogen describing this manifestation of the whole works, describing this brilliant, ungraspable, unkillable life which is just like riding in a boat. We raise the sails and

[06:09]

We roll with the oars and we work the rudder. But the boat gives us a ride and without the boat no one can ride. But still we ride the boat and our riding makes the boat what a boat is. And to study such a moment I feel is the same as to say study the precept of not killing. If you, in that story, take one side or the other, I think you violate that precept. If you forget that you row and you raise the sails and you ride the boat, you don't assert your position. If you don't remember that the boat gives you a ride, and without the boat you couldn't ride,

[07:12]

You don't recognize the rest of the universe. At the same time, you make the rest of the universe and it makes you. That's the same as just to quietly sit in dependent co-arising, to accept dependently co-arising existence that's appearing in this moment and now gone. So this is the first precept. And Bodhidharma says, the self-nature is subtle and mysterious. In the realm of everlasting Dharma, not giving rise to concepts of killing is called the precept of not killing. So being out there in the boat, just doing our work, rowing and sailing away, The mind that just does that and recognizes the wonder of the boat and the sails and the water and the sky, the mind that just doesn't expect anything but that, is a mind in which the concept of killing does not arise.

[08:28]

It's peaceful without denial. It's harmonious without excluding anything. So again, this is the first precept. with the emphasis on zazen practice. Now the second precept, the precept of not stealing, I offer again Dogen's concise comment that in the suchness of mind and object The gate of liberation is open. In the suchness of mind and objects, the gate of liberation is open. Open or opened? Opened. But you could also say opened or opened.

[09:36]

Or is opening. I think you can experiment with what you think is most helpful. Another translation of this same expression by Dogen is, the self and the things of the world are just as they are. The gate of liberation is open. is the second precept of not to steal. So here too I think the precept is pointing to this Buddha mind which is very peaceful and nothing more than what's happening, but the dimension here that's being emphasized I feel is to look at the quiet mind, the peaceful mind of subject and object, or what is the suchness of mind and objects, what's the truth of mind and objects.

[11:03]

The previous one seemed to me emphasizing more what's the truth of causation, meditating on dependent co-arising in a general way. This is now dependent co-arising particularly in terms of subject and object or mind and object or self and the things of the world. If we can tune into and sit with the suchness of mind and object, the door of liberation is open in that meditation. And this is not the steel. And therefore, in daily life, when we get into situations where there's possibility of the illusion of stealing, it's a time to use the precept to remind us that this is an opportunity to turn around and look at what is the suchness of mind and object.

[12:18]

Another way to put it is, as Buddha's mind regards Buddha's mind as the objective world, this is suchness. As Buddha's mind looks at Buddha's mind as the objective world, this is suchness. Buddha's mind looking at Buddha's mind as the objective world. I don't think of it, I don't think of Buddha as regarding the objective world in any sense, unless there's some choice to do that, sort of like the moral

[13:27]

Buddha's mind naturally looks at Buddha's mind, and Buddha's mind looks at itself as the objective world. In other words, Buddha's mind does not just look at Buddha's mind subjectively as itself, it also looks at itself as the entire universe, and that's suchness. It's not suchness for Buddha's mind just to look at itself subjectively. but also for Buddha's mind naturally appreciates looking at itself by looking at the world. Whatever is dualism in the world, fine, and in fact there seem to be these dualisms and that's part of what the challenge of the second precept is, it's in these dualistic situations of what's yours and what's somebody else's. That's not Buddha, that's the objective world of illusion, and the objective world of illusion, in the world of things you can know about, in the world of objects, that's the world of illusion.

[14:41]

The world of illusion, the world of the objective world, same thing. But when Buddha's mind looks at Buddha's mind as that world of the illusion, that's suchness, and in that suchness we find liberation, and in that suchness we appreciate what this precept's pointing us at. I don't know if I have my terms right, but that's a corollary of this. The suchness of things is not just that they're empty, okay? Suchness is not just that things are empty, suchness is also that things appear to arise, right? And so the fact that things dependently appear dependently co-arise as appearances and their emptiness, the identity of those two is suchness.

[15:45]

Emptiness is not suchness. And even dependent co-arising by itself is not suchness because there can be dependently co-arisen birth and death. In other words, there can be dependently co-arisen things which we then dependently co-arisenly believe are there. That's just misery. That's not suchness. Definitely co-arisen suchness is the wonderful harmony or identity between things that are appearing and that they're empty. But it's not just that they're empty, it's also that they do appear. And when Buddha's mind looks at itself as this world of appearance, that's the suchness in which liberation is born, and this precept is pointing to that particular type of meditation, which we can come up with practical examples But I'm sort of starting with this fundamental instruction for this realm coming from Dogon.

[16:50]

And here's another expression which I think we can discuss. I think you already have been discussing it. I think this comes from the Avatamsaka Sutra, I'm not sure. does not hold dead bodies. Another one is the great ocean excludes or expels or rejects dead bodies. Although the great ocean excludes or does not hold dead bodies, although that's true, it also does not see dead bodies. This is another instruction. It does not see dead bodies as objects either. This is another instruction about this precept. So one more thing I would just say for starters is that of course the precept of not stealing is the same as the precept of practicing giving, the same precept.

[18:06]

The practice of giving is the same as the practice of not stealing. And giving, in some very fundamental way I feel, is just, as Dogen says, to let your breakfast be your breakfast. To let your lunch be your lunch. That's what giving is. Giving is fundamentally letting things be what they are. You can let things be as they are, that's the greatest generosity. So, when we meet various treasures in this world, and actually this entire world is a treasure, if we can practice giving, if we can let it be, you know, look at that treasure, wow! can be totally impressed, totally even enthralled perhaps by the treasure, that's enough, you're free right there.

[19:12]

But you move from that, mess around with it and then you're messing with this precept. You cannot steal anyway, but you can break this precept by veering away from just appreciation On the other hand, if we can just appreciate what is, the suchness of mind and objects, then the door of liberation opens or is open on that meditation. So, I don't know, that's maybe enough for starters. Perhaps you want to have some discussion now. Yeah. Your last sort of exclamatory statement sounds a lot like the thing we were talking about yesterday. What was the last exclamatory statement?

[20:20]

It was a, wow, you know, that's sort of appreciating. But it sounds a lot like, you know, that's beautiful, which we had some problems with yesterday. Well, my mind just jumped to left brain, right brain, okay? Some people say that right brain is, that is wow, and left brain is wow. So if it's possible, if it's possible to say wow and let it go at that, then let it be that, and maybe that's not a sin, maybe that's when the figure skater just does it before they realize that they did it. But there may be a part of our being that can just say, wow, and let it go at that, without denigrating it by saying, that is wow, but just an exclamation,

[21:24]

in wow, oh, but not, oh is wow is oh, not that. That's kind of left brain time, making change of causation between an existent wow, an existent oh, an existent wow. But if we can just say, I think we're allowed to say oh, as long as we don't make anything out of it, just don't make that wow something that's caused by itself and other, both or neither, just be Just talk. Then I think it's not even a sin. However, it's very hard to live that way, of course. The Harris-Brett deviation, basically, we've sinned. I guess we have to judge that for ourselves, whether we've hedged on it in the slightest bit, whether we were, in the slightest bit, not content with wow. If we were, in the slightest bit, not content with oh. If we are, we should confess and say that I did it.

[22:34]

I was a little bit not content with wow or oh. Or a lot not content. Or a lot not content, right. But what they say is that a little bit of life is kind of like a lot. Because the distance between heaven and earth is that little bit of lack of content. That's the measure of the distance. But it's the repression on top of it. It's the repression on top of it. Because the sinning, if you recover on the sinning and you just say, it's a sin, that's not a sin. But if you say it's a sin, I wish I didn't do it. You're not appreciating the beauty of the sin, which again, the beauty of a sin is that we don't think sin is beauty. Sin is just sin. Not to kill is not to kill, and this precept is particularly emphasizing the subject-object dimension, which the first precept is bringing out too.

[23:41]

The second precept is, can you translate this now into the objective realm? The first one is a little bit, slightly more subjective, just life itself, kind of like, just sip. The other, now can you enter into subject-object relationships and recognize an external world and keep that same understanding of dependent co-arising? and be contented with things appearing and let them be without all this fancy stuff we can do and if you do mess off then admit it catch yourself and say that's breaking this precept not that I can steal anything really but I broke this precept because I didn't appreciate the suchness for a moment there. I couldn't stand the suchness. Okay. That's pretty good Zazen, sounds like it.

[24:43]

In fact, none of the precepts are... The various things that we have to work with don't only include the precepts, they're all sorts of different practices that we can do. Not always sure about how to keep them all in mind. Well, we have this short course, right? For all the precepts. It's called Just Sitting. So, just don't move. and you'll keep all the precepts. However, you should check out whether you're really not moving by looking at the precepts. So you can only take one at a time. Not killing is just not killing, but not killing is also ten precepts. Each one of these precepts is the other nine because each one of these precepts is that same Buddha mind. So just practice not moving and then check out you're not moving by the practice of receiving the precepts, and once you receive the precepts sincerely, once you vow to practice those precepts, they'll pop up for you.

[26:16]

And then use Buddha's teachings about what these precepts mean, to use these precepts to check out your zazen, to see that your zazen isn't just some kind of solipsistic denial project. So check out and see if you think, for example, the first precept, see if you think. in these ways that were, you know, like you make the world or that the world makes you to think. If you think that you're caused by yourself or caused by another and these kinds of things, see if you found those ways of thinking. If you do, you're probably breaking the rest of the precepts too, and also you're dreaming about practicing Zazen, you're not doing your Zazen practice anyway if you're not understanding these precepts. But to go around and try to think of all ten, you know, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, that might not be very good for your... that might make you sort of upset. So it might be better just to practice just sitting all day and use one precept a month or something, concentrate on one precept a month and check yourself out.

[27:21]

I don't know, different people would be different things. But I think that somehow there's some great gift about stealing I think in our society. that a lot of opportunities arise for us to use that precept to help us practice meditation, because of our sense of, you know, especially living in a sangha where it's such a big issue about what belongs to you and what doesn't, so clear that it's an issue. And then how do you figure it out? Well, you look at it, you notice the dilemmas, And then those dilemmas point you at a ... if you understand this teaching or receive this teaching, then those dilemmas point you back to look at this teaching, and if you look at this teaching, that teaching will inspire you to handle the dilemma. And I find if I think of this teaching, I don't become so impatient with the dilemma. Otherwise I kind of get impatient with the dilemmas and want to sort of talk myself into some solution.

[28:30]

in a sense break the precept because I'm too lazy or too impatient to return to Buddha's mind and try to figure it out, not to figure it out but to practice it. So I wouldn't think that you would necessarily have a lot of words in your head about these precepts, but just study the precepts and discuss the precepts and our understanding develops as we study them, but then use your understanding in the day to practice just sitting. And then, as you practice just sitting, see what precepts come up. And then you're just sitting to understand the precept. And these are teachings to understand the precept. So if you have an example, a particular example, we can talk about it too. I don't know if that was helpful. Yeah, I just don't always trust that it will just pop up. You don't trust it to pop up? No. Don't trust that.

[29:36]

Isn't that what you're saying? Well, I mean, excuse me, when I say don't trust that they'll pop up, I mean don't just sit there and think that they trust that you pop up, practice just sitting. If you hold still, they will pop up, then I would say that. But if they don't pop up, then you probably I wouldn't then trust that they're going to pop up, I would think there's something funny about my practice that they weren't popping up. Like that example of, what is it, Thoreau was saying, if you sit still long enough, all you need to do is sit still long enough and in fact if there's a spot in the forest and all the inhabitants, all the precepts will present themselves to you in turn. So if the precepts aren't presenting themselves to you, then probably you're either having sat still long enough or you're not sitting still. So then I would think you would sit longer and look deeper into whether you're sitting still.

[30:39]

And again, if it goes on much longer than that and nothing presents itself, maybe you should go and ask for some instruction about, you know, check out with your friends to see if they think you're sitting still. Am I sitting still? And if they say, yep, just keep doing it and go back and do it some more. But they might say, no, actually, you're wiggling a lot, and if I was a brown squirrel, I wouldn't come anywhere near you. If I was the third priest, I'd stay far away. You're moving too much, so sit still more. That's part of the shadow thing, right? You may think you're sitting still, but not being really sitting still. So if you ask for feedback... Also, if you're sitting still, one of the inner characteristics of sitting still, if you're sitting still and you see people who aren't sitting still, you won't get upset about it. And if you're not sitting still, and you see people who are moving, you get quite upset, you think they're really turkeys.

[31:41]

Or if you see people breaking these precepts, you really get upset with them, rather than understanding and forgiving. So there's various, many, many ways to discover that perhaps we're kidding ourselves. And then we have an opportunity to catch ourselves, confess, and go on. Saturn, a wiser man. A woman. You know, the practice of giving is the same as letting people be what they are. The practice of giving is to let people be what they are. So I can imagine that be misunderstood as neglect or something like that? Neglect? Or, you know, what is the way by which we just want to decide when to leave alone and when not to leave alone?

[32:52]

Could you give us an example? Like let's say somebody comes and asks you for something? You know, when you see something and you want to leave it alone and give. Giving is the same as letting go, is it not? Well, wanting to let them alone is not letting them alone. Letting them alone doesn't have any wanting in it, first of all. That's the same. So, something happens, right? And you let it alone. That's giving. Now, where's the neglect? Because... The person should have gotten, you know, a word. They should have gotten a word when? At the point of letting them alone, actually letting them alone wasn't safe. So, oh, maybe letting them alone, letting them be is whatever is appropriate. Letting them alone means what's happening is happening.

[33:55]

So you see a person there, perhaps a suffering person, and you let them suffer. In other words, your contribution to the situation is approximately the same as a dead person would contribute, right? Except you're not dead, and living people always add something, you know, usually add something, because they can't stand, they don't trust that just being there and letting things alone is enough so to think well I got to do something well okay that's that but letting alone is just to let it be what it is and then if you can do that then if you should say something you will say something right after that. So letting something be does not mean action when it's uncomfortable or when you're not cared for? It does not. When Avalokiteshvara hears the suffering, that's all Avalokiteshvara does, just hears the suffering. That's the compassion at that moment, when Avalokiteshvara doesn't hear the suffering and say, well I should do something.

[35:03]

Avalokiteshvara hears the suffering, first of all you listen. That's compassion first of all. Then you might make a peanut butter sandwich after that. But making a peanut butter sandwich and giving it to a person is not letting them be. No, it sure is. It is? If somebody says, I want a peanut butter sandwich, first of all, you hear it and you say, they're asking for a peanut butter sandwich. That's all you do. That's it. Then, if you're joyful at the idea of making a peanut butter sandwich, then it's a fact that you're joyful of making a peanut butter sandwich and you let that be. You let it be that you have a joyful feeling of making a peanut butter sandwich. Now if there's peanut butter and bread then it's a fact that you make a sandwich and so on.

[36:06]

Each one of those things is letting it be. But again if you flinch from any moment like that then I think you've got a problem here. we have a problem. We're not, again, living in that fantastic dynamic life of where you assert your position of I'm hearing somebody say peanut butter sandwich and you recognize there's somebody else over there saying that. And that's enough. People can't even do that most of the time. They want to veer off from that and do something, you know, some role-taking thing like I don't know, I've got to do something to make myself feel like I'm not being negligent. I can't just sit here and listen to this and feel the tension of this situation and wait patiently for it all to blow up and be in a whole new world where I'm now making peanut butter sandwiches. It's hard to live in that world. But that's enough. That's incredibly difficult, we can barely do it.

[37:10]

And if we can somehow stand to face reality the way things actually are, the way things actually are is extremely difficult to accept. Because there you are, you know, rowing and all this stuff and also you're not, that's not all that's happening, the boat's also giving you a ride and you know, and you couldn't do it without the boat and also the boat's not there without, it's very contradictory and paradoxical and it doesn't fit with our idea of things. There may be some pain there with adjusting to reality. That's a big job, that's enough. And if we can't do it, even that we forgive. That's giving. The practice of suchness comes in all these varieties, like it comes in ten precepts, it comes in six paramitas. There were different ways to talk about just sitting, but if we just say just sitting, people misunderstand what just sitting is, so we explain it in terms of six paramitas or

[38:14]

or ten precepts. Now of course the Paramitas means you go beyond giving, you don't just go along with your idea of giving, you completely go beyond giving, you go beyond ethics and all this stuff, and also you go beyond the precepts in the usual way. All these cases are ways for you to understand Buddha's mind and also these these precepts and these perfections we practice just sitting in order to understand them. The precepts, the Bodhisattva precepts and the six perfections were there being transmitted and the practice of meditation is so you understand what they're about, so you don't sort of like going along saying, oh, they're just what I think they are. They're not what they think they are, but what we think they are is part of what they are because that's part of suchness. And again, in the practice of giving, when there's a joy there, and this joy can include even the thought of, I wonder if I'm being negligent.

[39:28]

But when you hear, I wonder if I'm being negligent, that's another request for a peanut butter sandwich that you're hearing. And you just hear When you hear, I'd like a peanut butter sandwich, it's the same as when you hear, I wonder if I'm being negligent. In both cases, Avalokiteshvara is just hearing. And that's compassion. And the one who's asking for the peanut butter sandwich and the one who's saying, I wonder if I'm being negligent, they are being heard. They are saved. And there's joy in both the situations, which sustains that kind of practice. And that kind of practice is also up to be tested. Look at Tassajara. Are the plants growing? Are the paths being swept? Are the students loving each other? Are the students maturing? Are the students aware of what they're doing? Are they in denial? Well, if they are, maybe we're kidding ourselves about this practice of suchness.

[40:34]

Maybe we're not really totally dedicated to it. Which one of us isn't? Who's holding up the show? But it looks like people are doing pretty well because there is a lot of love here and we do keep the past clean and so on and so forth. You can test it. It's okay to test it. And we have peanut butter sandwiches here too, right? More than I'd like sometimes. And we make them for ourselves, which is okay. What? Charles. So, if we hear somebody wanting to talk about a challenge... of what we're doing in any way?

[41:44]

Well it's kind of a little bit like Chris's example with his sister okay you don't have to you don't have you can recover in the middle of making a sandwich if you notice at the first stroke of peanut butter that you're doing this to get something okay you can drop it right there you can catch yourself right there and return to suchness of making a peanut butter sandwich you don't have to make the whole process you know like 55,000 times in that process of making the peanut butter sandwich to each time, each stroke of the butter, you continue trying to get something, trying to get something, trying to get something. It doesn't have to be repeated moment after moment during the whole process of doing the spreading. You can catch it once and drop it and then for the rest of the time it's just pure suchness. Like that guy in that movie Diva, you know, the Zen of buttering bread. If as you're buttering the bread, you know, halfway across the baguette you notice something, hey I'm getting famous, this is good, you can drop it right then and keep going.

[42:44]

Or you can sin every single moment and accumulate innumerable confessions while you're spreading the bread, that's okay too. You can stop halfway across the bread and say, hey I'm not going to I'm not going to continue this travesty, this obscenity, this sinning. I'm stuck right there, that's it. Now, can anybody finish this without, with no getting idea? Could someone come forth and, you know, practice Zazen while making this peanut butter sandwich? You know, get somebody else to do it, you can't. We need a peanut butter sandwich made here. And again, do you enjoy tuning into Buddha's mind? And Buddha's mind is a contented mind, a mind that's not trying to get anything out of life. Life is enough. Just not killing it is enough. It's good enough.

[43:47]

And now it's gone. Here's another one. Grace? I think my question is, going back a little bit to casting it off, is, this is probably what I've heard people describe And if we turn our back, if we decide, I don't want to witness this, it changes the reality of whatever it is that might have happened, it's simply ridiculous. I guess my question is, what's the obligation to witness? You can't still continue. Is that the pain? I sometimes have trouble answering questions when I feel a yes, I sometimes feel like I'm maybe not understanding your question.

[44:47]

Avalokiteshvara, I don't think, has to do anything but listen, and also cannot do anything less than listen too. I mean, Avalokiteshvara is not functioning when we don't listen. So, our witness. that's all Avalokiteshvara does. It isn't like Avalokiteshvara listens and then does something. The listening is the compassion and then that's all over and there's another cry and it listens again. That's right. That's right, and making peanut butter or making a peanut butter sandwich is another form of listening. It's just listening. You can't take a break from listening, because then you're taking a break from being responsive. Like a wind bell, you know? A wind bell is just sitting there.

[45:51]

It doesn't say, okay, I should be making peanut butter sandwiches, but as soon as the wind comes from the peanut butter direction, it moves. It doesn't like get affected by the request and then think I should do something. It is just affected by the request, that's all it does. And then if the request pushes it further, it swings further. And then because it swung that far, it swings back. But that's just... Yes? Should I do anything more? No. Let's see, I think I should. I don't know who's next. Was Carolyn before you? Go ahead, Carolyn. Peanut Butter Sandwiches is in the back except for the one that came out the other night when you were talking about the people in the reception.

[47:07]

I've also talked with Pam and other people around here, the other side of all the pain from what happened to my parents, the pain of what a parent has done to their children. And I think thousands of people are going to have a very unjoyful life. But this feeling of incredible sadness about the way that crushed my children, Not wanting to take the pain, especially my daughter and her sixth son, who was a part of a lot of pain in their life. And after that shocking day that I did, I'm thinking that I'm going to face the fact that it's a lot of patients pain. And I feel the anesthesia, and I feel like, really, it's a lot of pain that people are taking on. So one of the patients, and I was looking through, and there was evil popped off of the page. And I think what we need to do is think about it in the enthusiasm section.

[48:15]

It's something about the strength of an open mind that doesn't have to consume all the previous evil and harvest an ocean of merit. So consuming previous evil. Well, I guess my first response is whether it's possible or not, I want to do it. Even if it's impossible, I still want to do it. Primarily because other people who I love tried it, and it looks like it was possible, but even if it's not, they tried it, and even if it's not, I'm going to try it, I'm going to go for it, I'm going to try to, if you want to, consume all my past ego by the practice of suchness.

[49:27]

That's what it says in this particular text that I'm using, that's what it says in the Lotus Sutra, if you just sit upright in correct bodily posture and practice suchness, in other words, contemplate suchness, dependent co-arising, all the hindrances due to our endless karma will melt away. But you've got to do it completely, you can't hold back, that's not the practice of suchness, you can't have any reservation, however you can you can try and have reservation and admit that you have reservation and notice and admit that and go on. But we make a commitment to a hundred percent practice of suchness. In other words, to be completely in accord with what's happening, to completely trust the teaching of dependent co-arising, to completely sit as though this is not caused by something else, it's not caused by itself, it's not caused by both, and it's not without cause.

[50:29]

that boat, riding in the boat, to live that way completely without batting an eyelash, without backing down, try that practice of sitting and see if it does consume that ocean of karmic hindrance, see if it works. And if you think you did it completely and it's not working, then see if your friends think you're doing it completely. And if they do, and you do, see if some other friends think you do. But usually, as soon as you go to ask your friend, you notice you're not complete, you're holding back a little. Or maybe your friend will say, could you try a little longer, to sit a little longer? So, I don't know if it's possible to accomplish support and encouragement and inspiration from you guys to keep trying it.

[51:39]

And it says that you can consume all this stuff and become free of it without denying it, without getting rid of it. The suchness of the whole thing actually is the doors being opened. And in terms of our relationships with others, between our mind and the objective world, If we see the suchness of it, we will be released from all this massive evil. But it's fairly likely that if we try to practice it, there will be some denial, so we'll be dreaming about practicing it for some period of time. Let's be open to the fact that we might be dreaming that we're practicing Zazen. Okay. And then when somebody says, you know, I think you're dreaming of practicing Zazen, we might be dreaming that we heard them say that.

[52:43]

And then we have a dream about what that means. We just keep trying until we hit the mark. And we see how it works when it hits the mark. Deep down we know, we know, you know, we have a feeling for it, so when we hit we're going to know it. to be encouraged. I'm saying that but I don't know if that's encouraging. Is it encouraging? Well, I thought you're going to say sometimes I'm losing my sense of humor when I think that I've done so much good.

[54:07]

Why isn't it working now? I think that's pretty funny, too. We're going to stop helping you guys. Don't think you're so powerful that you can do this much. Right. Well, it's like they're riding the boat, right? If we behave ourselves, the buffalo will be running around in the prairies, fertilizing the ground, happily pouncing around. They'll join us here in the world, and they'll meet us. If we don't behave ourselves, they might go away, but it isn't that we drove them away entirely. We were part of the story, though.

[55:11]

But they also decided to leave. But the idea that we were, you know, the idea that story that I drew was that we are so powerful that we can cause the extinction of species. Right, or that we can drive a boat. That we can sail a boat rather than the boat sails us. Again, it's missing the suchness of mind and object. It's missing the suchness of our relationship with each other and with Buffalo. And it's also, I guess, not a slight distinction between sex and other things. Yes? I didn't see her. I thought she was saying, I raised my hand and you didn't see me.

[56:13]

And I was saying, now I see you, is there anything else? And she didn't say anything. What? Was I calling her? No, I just wondered, Now that she got my attention, I was wondering if she wanted to talk about something that she said she didn't. So, even though I took the courage to recognize my pain, it's kind of hard for me to say because I've already shut down, so that's the next step.

[57:41]

But, you know, what I felt like doing was walking Do you see me? I'm watching every one of your faces. Do you see me? And that's sometimes what it takes to get us to see you. You have to sort of say, do you see me? So it's kind of like, that's part of the trickiness of it. Sometimes that's what you have to do. But then if you were to ask me and say, okay, I see you, what do you want to say? But then I can't say it yet. And that's okay, because you're sort of a little bit of after affecting what happened before, there's still someone reacting to that previous feeling. Is that what you're saying? I guess. Whatever the amnesia is or whatever drops down on my mind and I can't think. Right, and I understand that, so I give you the space to go through that.

[58:46]

No, I was going to say that it's okay to ask for someone to see you even if you don't have anything to say. Right. That's what I thought you were doing. But I checked to see if there were more than that. Did you see my hand? I didn't see your hand, no. This is very interesting. that you see everybody else's hands in the room, but you never happen to see mine, or you never think that mine's clay. I have to come over here and do this. Do you see my fucking hands? Yeah. I saw it before, too, when you stood in front of me. I mean, why do you see other people? Other people don't have to do this. They just kind of go like this, or whatever they do. They don't do this. No, it's not true, Cohen. Over here, it's not true. That's true over there maybe. But I've seen you raise your hand, you know, you did it, I saw you do it a few minutes ago, I saw you do it three or four times just now, I saw it.

[59:52]

And you're saying other people don't have to do it? Well, I mean, they don't have to, I mean, if I do a little, that's not recognized, you don't recognize that. But other people do this and you recognize them. They don't have to get up in your face to be recognized. No, that's not true. That's not true over here. Over here, that's not true. I miss other people's hand, too, if I don't see them. I don't see... So I don't agree with your perception that I see other people's hands and I don't see yours. I do sometimes see your hand. For example, when you stood right in front of me and went like this, I saw your hand. And just now when I'm looking at you and you put your hand up, I saw your hand. And just now when I'm looking at you and you went like this, I saw your hand.

[60:54]

But if you do it like this and I'm looking over this way, and I was generally speaking looking over that way, if you go like this, I didn't see your hand. And that's my perception. And I have seen your hand many times and called on you many times. And generally speaking, I think you're a pretty smart cookie and enjoy what you say and what you have to ask about. So I'm pretty happy to, when I see your hand, to call on you. That's what it's like over here anyway. I'm not suggesting this, but if you sit right in front of me, it'll be more likely that I'll see you, even if you go like this. But I do, I always sit in the middle, right in the front, and I raise my hand, and yet I don't want, if you sit in here, you don't want to do this to the teacher, right? You've got to go like this. I kind of like it.

[61:56]

You've got to go like this. Well, I like it that way. That's not a good one. You've got to go like this. But also, that other night when you raised your hand and I didn't see you, you were sitting in front of me, but you were sitting sideways. I think if you sat right in front of me, you'd be like... Anyway, it is true that some people, I've told this before, some people I'm kind of afraid of what their question is going to be and when they raise their hand I sometimes go, what's going to be now? But, you know, and those people, if I missed their hand, they would think, well, I'm repressing, I'm denying. But I don't have that problem with you. You know, you're really nice to me, and you ask interesting questions, and I appreciate it. So, it's just simply that you're out of my line of vision. That's what I think. That's my theory.

[62:57]

You sit right in front of me and raise your hand. It always feels personal. I mean, almost everybody in the room has had the experience. It always feels personal. He doesn't want to call on me today. Yes? When you were talking, I was reminded of a story that I was told by a follower of Muktananda. And what Muktananda used to do is completely ignore this world. So this white person would go into a group of people, and she was a member of that group. She would give everyone else a gift, and it mattered. And what she would do, is do this. And I told her to interpret this as meaning that she could not see him. She could not see part of him. That's one of the things about looking on the Google for mythical mammoth stories.

[64:14]

We love such things. I hate it of course. It's fine as long as there's somebody else's such as. I'd like to bring up something that happened yesterday in class, but I don't know how it relates to this group. I'm sorry, can you repeat it? I wanted to bring up something that happened yesterday in class, but I don't know how it relates to this group. I'm finding it really difficult to speak these days. I really want this to come out right, and I know it's not going to happen. Oh, no. Just a few minutes. Just a few minutes. It's the first thing we've been working on all of the night here.

[65:33]

I was really grateful for Pam's courage yesterday in trying to bring up a sort of concept and expression which was to say how difficult it is to bring up things because of how we've been treated earlier in our life and how we're always set up with being afraid of what's going to happen to us when we try and be honest. As she did that, what was happening over here was watching this. It was painful because I don't feel like I even got a chance to utter this thing that you cut into her. their parents.

[66:42]

It was a very painful one. I've been making up excuses since then about why he did what he did. But... I don't know how much I want to say. It was all clear earlier and I'll let it rain. I thought that maybe you were trying to get her out of a state she was in and move her to a different state. It was more like rage. It also looked like you were experiencing your own... expressing your own pain in a very similar situation, but the part that hurt me, I thought, was that you were cheating her out of completely expressing your feelings about her own experience. Cutting into her more than he did. But I was hoping that you could share with us what actually happened at that moment.

[67:56]

Do you know which moment I'm talking about? You don't? When you corrected Pam about, to precisely say what actually happened to her. When she said she was going bloody. But she had already finished what she had to say, hadn't she? I'm only bringing this up because it felt like the very thing that she was trying to do was to be able to express something that she didn't dare to do before. It was a very I think you said it already. I just heard you say that before she'd get it out, I cut into it.

[68:58]

I thought she said what she had to say and she stopped and then I responded. Why did you respond? Well, let's get the first thing straight first, shall we? Which person? Did I stop her before she expressed what she had to say? To me, that wasn't a difficult part. Yeah, but let's talk about that. My suffering was greater than his. Did you? Were you really? Well, I was. And there was some... I don't know. I also don't know exactly what was going on. But after that, I went, it's fine, Pam. We have time. You stayed in the room there for me. And I know I did express myself. You didn't stop me.

[69:59]

You didn't, but I didn't. I know you didn't know exactly what was happening. Well, I'd still like to clarify the first point. That I cut, that I stopped her before she could express herself. I think she, I thought she did express herself. And I asked her if she wanted to interact more at that time, and she said she didn't. That's what I thought happened. I asked her if she wanted to talk more at that time, and she said no. The very first thing that happened, as she was expressing herself, was the words that I remember was, don't say that, that's not what happened, that's what happened to me, that's not what happened to you. Well, be clear about what you're saying. That was the very first response. But it was done in a tone that was very upset. And that's the part, I mean, I'm just bringing this up because it was really painful for me to witness this. I don't know what was going on, why people were responding in that way to me. Well, I guess we should just try to clarify what happened.

[71:01]

What happened? What did people see? What I remember was that I said that that we shouldn't over-sympathize, or how difficult it is to say what happens when... to say what's difficult, what's painful, because in my case, my experience was that when I did that, I stood up and said my truth, that I was more beat up and bloody than what I was. And my recollection is that Webb said, is that really what happened to you? And I said, no. And he said, well, that's what happened to me. And I then said, he said, that's what they did to me.

[72:05]

And I said, then, as I recall, not in such a loud voice, but I said, at least not somebody. So then, at that point he said, do you want to say anything else? And I shook my head and he said, do you not want to say, do you not care, or do you not want to say anything else? And I said, I don't want to say anything else. My feeling initially was one of, am I lying? Am I exaggerating? Am I saying something that's not true here? And my response to that, immediate response to that, then and later during the day was, I ought to go apologize, because I said something that wasn't really true, and obviously tapped some pain in the rib, and so I didn't go apologize, and as I apologized I thought,

[73:21]

I'm not going to apologize because I wasn't lying. And if I was lying, I would admit I knew what happened and I exaggerated it. In fact, I don't know what happened and that's what came out of my mouth. And it's as likely as anything else. So that's what was going on over here. And I was, left with kind of confusion in a way about whether or not what Brad said was said as an intentional way to help me be clear about what was going on or whether it was really coming from some gut-level hurt like, for me too, on your part.

[74:24]

And I don't know that still. So I'm not sure. But I just want to say, there is a possibility. My feeling is that whatever happened is very successful, that it worked well for me. But I have to say that I'm actually not sure. At this point, it's entirely possible I want very much to think that you were doing absolutely the right thing and that it really worked for me and I don't want to think that maybe it actually hurt or... That's hard for me to... That's in the realm of possibility. Well, there's... maybe there's two different conversations but I seem to remember a conversation that started out with you saying that you felt left out. Yeah. Was that the same thing? No, that was one conversation and then this was... After a bunch of other people had said things, I said, I feel uncomfortable with saying it so easily.

[75:25]

So I thought, when Regina said I cut you off, that she meant I cut you off in that conversation, where I let you talk a long time, when you were done with that conversation, I said, do you want to go on with this? Because I was going to talk to you about that. But you said no. And then I said, do you mind if I say some things? And you said okay, and I did. In the conversation with this other one, again, I don't feel like I cut her off, but anyway, I did respond very intensely. And I guess my feeling of what I was doing was I was saying, Pam, was it actually blood? I didn't think it was, and it wasn't actual blood. I wanted to tell you that with me it was blood. And what I also said was, we both survived, didn't we? Now maybe you didn't hear that, but I was trying to say, we survived that, that's very important. Okay? And also, if you feel like I was doing what her parents did, okay, but I think, in a sense, I was doing something different.

[76:29]

I'm not afraid of what she was talking about, and if she was bloody too, then there's two of us who were bloody, but there was an intensity, there was a rage there, whether it was about what happened to me or not, Maybe it was. Maybe I've shown you that I'm also enraged that they pushed me. In other words, I was also saying, I'm like that too. That's part of what I was saying. I was all the same. Don't forget me. I'm in the same park. And here we are both expressing ourselves. That's what I was saying to you. And I said it, you know, I feel close enough to Pam to say it pretty much straight out. And whether or not she really couldn't handle it, But it seems like she did, and she's really depressing the fact that this makes her less likely to say so in the future. I don't know. We'll have to see. I think she's more able to do what she said she'd had trouble doing now than she was the day before yesterday.

[77:30]

That's my impression. I think I am also. And I think I was partly saying, just don't forget what happened to some of the others. And in fact, in my case it actually was. real live blood out on the playground. But I didn't mean to say, and that's the implication, I didn't mean to say that I suffered more than you, because I know that internal stuff is bad, but you know, you sort of said blood, I thought to sort of say, well that makes it real strong, and I was saying, well yeah, okay, so let's give some blood. So that's part of it, that's how I thought it. But I was ... there was rage there, But it wasn't ... anyway, there it was. But it was between me and Pam. And that's part of what happens at Zen Center is that if I feel close to somebody and I have interaction with them and they trust me a lot and I know that I'm committed to them, I can do things with them that they can handle.

[78:36]

But if somebody else who doesn't feel that kind of trust with me sees it, they think, if that happened to me, I would be totally devastated. So then it frightens them. So then the question is whether in public I should do things with people who I have close relationship with and people who don't feel that much trust are going to witness and be frightened away by. That's kind of a dilemma. And I'm not sure what's best because sometimes it's good for the people who assume that that was a devastation to talk to the person and find out that's part of their relationship. I saw Suzuki Roshi do that with some people and I was horrified, but he only did it with people he was really close to, like he, you know, beat people up in public. But these were his close students that he did that with. Yes? I wasn't very high by the way. Being that you have this close relationship and now hearing what Rick said, do you still feel at that moment that in any way you felt diminished?

[79:52]

Even though now the explanation makes sense, maybe it makes sense or doesn't make sense. I don't, there's no point. Was there, because what I'm hearing Regina say is that she felt that Greg diminished your suffering by saying mine was real physical, where you two might not have... Did you feel that way? Did you feel that he diminished your suffering by responding to you that way? I don't know that I felt he was diminishing my suffering or not. What I experienced was... to seven things simultaneously, but the main thing was I thought, am I lying? That was what came to my mind, was, you said, is this, and I also was definitely taken aback by the intensity of it. But what I thought was, did I just make that up?

[80:56]

Or am I saying this for dramatic effect? And what, the way in fact that it played into my, life is that, you know, I always was told, stop being so self indulgent, that stuff. So that's what came up was, is that what I'm doing? Am I making this up? And what I ended up feeling was, no. Even though I couldn't say, yes, I remember being bloody on the program. Now, why it didn't make me feel like I was one, I don't know. Maybe it may not be true, actually. I mean, that's what I thought about it through the day. I thought, I don't know. I can't remember at this point. But the best I can say is that somehow, even though it was very, that was a comfortable situation for me to be in, I think, am I exaggerating?

[82:05]

and also to feel Rev's anger and also to see his hurt. Both of these, I saw very clearly, oh, this is... I mean, on the one hand it was, this is... It could have been seen as my pain is worse than yours, but in a way what I felt was, ouch, me too. And in some way I think that that helped me Although, I went through, the scenario was certainly possible that I could have felt like, God, I just really, I exaggerated, and this isn't true, and I'm terrible because I was making something up. I didn't feel that. I actually didn't feel that right away, as I said that, Me too.

[83:07]

But, I don't, and I don't understand how that dynamic all worked that made me end up feeling, I ended up feeling quite empowered, not disempowered. I ended up feeling like, he came out and said, is that true? And I, my thought was, no, I actually said, no. But then I, what happened, I don't know why, but what happened was I said, me too. And I sort of felt like... Real blood, fake blood, I don't care. This is how I feel. Why that worked the way it did, I don't know, but that's what happened. So I was saying basically, me too. You said me too. And that was basically, in a sense, what I was saying to you, was me too. And I guess I was saying, if your parents... Partly your parents and my parents are right. We are somewhat self-indulgent. So, we have to find some way to tell them about our pain without forgiving that they're in pain too.

[84:12]

So, we have to find a way to do that. And one way to find is for our friends to say, me too, and then you say, me too, and the record, me too, me too, until we get the message that it's mutual. And that's basically what I think I was trying to say, and I was saying it from way down, you know, from third grade, that's where it's coming from. The other thing that you were saying, which also you said later this morning, what to me, that I think one of the things that was really painful for me was, this is what I realized most of the jokes on this morning, was saying, you're not being very clear you have to clear up what really happened and how you really feel and that was sort of the message that I got yesterday during this discussion was what really happened and to hear that to recognize that I don't know is painful and also but I also didn't feel like it wasn't okay I actually don't know I feel okay that you went away

[85:22]

with a question and that's okay and you came back to how you feel but I think it's okay for a while you say now is that true okay yes it was I did yes okay that's all I was asking you and also I wanted you to also know that even if it is true and even if it was real blood then you've got to love your brother because that same thing happened to me and we're both here to say so so there's some The success, we survived. Me too. So, but I wonder about Regina, how she's doing. I'd just like to point out that suffering doesn't always have words and sound. It doesn't say something for it. It's not visible. It's not a good assumption, no.

[86:30]

But you don't necessarily say so out loud. Not in whatever way to express it. How do you feel? Do you feel supported in this? Because, I mean, do you feel like you're having to defend being real, authentic and spontaneous? No, I feel okay because I am up for this kind of thing. I feel a little bit embarrassed to get all this attention. Leslie's going to get mad at me. Sorry, Leslie. But anyway, I only feel a little bit embarrassed to get all this love, that's all. But I'm getting put on the spot for every tiny little thing I do.

[87:35]

But I'm up for it, you know. That's the advantage and disadvantage of, you know, my role. is that if I make little mistakes, I get called on. Or big mistakes, of course. Actually, big mistakes people can hardly believe. It's the little ones I get called on. Or not even mistakes, but just, you know, if I really let go sometimes, with a lot of energy, it has to be just right. If it's a little bit off, it can be questionable. So I'm being questioned, and I feel okay about that. Although it's a little bit scary. The verdict came out against me. Well, like, one time Leslie intervened in a discussion with someone that I had, and then she ended up saying, well, I think I made things worse. I went and said to this person and that person, and she said that, and then I went and she said that, and I... And then, what, but she didn't, she didn't, she thought she'd made the situation worse. And I said, I don't think that either one of us can hold you, you know,

[88:43]

to a mistake when, you know, her heart was right. So sometimes we miss. We don't always, you know, we just get in there and sometimes we miss. And I just want to say that maybe you're doing this with all of us. You may miss sometimes. I think we have to give you the freedom to And yet I'm glad everybody's exploring this or seeing whatever they need to say, but I want you to feel free to miss, too. Thank you. It hurt, this most recent thing that hurt was probably the trivial act of trivializing the event by saying that it was a really, really smart thing that you do when you get the call down.

[90:29]

I mean, this is painful for me because this particular event happens to bring out my own It's painful when they're actually with you and they're not comfortable. It's painful to know that you can have a close enough relationship with them where you can do the sort of things that you can't do with me. I had a difficult time trusting that what you did was intentional. That the entire thing was intentional, including the rage. So that you could just go ahead and do that type of thing. Absolutely. It is true that I.

[91:39]

I realized today that I was trying to figure... I was thinking that if I could figure out what I was repressing, denying, that my headache would go away. And I finally realized this morning that actually all I had to do There's actually very little that I can do in trying to get rid of my headache by doing certain things or trying to see what I'm denying in a hurry so that I can get rid of my headache. All of a sudden it's just, forget it. But when I figured that out, In my head it felt different.

[93:25]

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