So this time, I think we're up to 45a, is that right? And we're learning about this thing, this diamond. which is not associated with mind, called Jivit Endria. That might be the first thing to think about why, what this thing is called life that's not associated with mind.

[01:03]

What does it mean that life is not associated with mind? So what not possibility is that life is a bigger category than mind, or maybe that I guess you could say it's... This is life and this is mind, like that. Life is a subset. I mean, mind is a subset of life. I don't know if we have any kind of mind that's not inside of life. If that were so, then mind would always be associated with mind.

[02:07]

Is there some exception to that? Death? Is there consciousness of death? Yes. Is there consciousness in between? So then we can't really say that. that knowing there's a subset of one. Right. So maybe we should draw it differently. Maybe we should draw... This is... This is being, okay? This whole big circle is called sattva. Yeah. I think this is all kinds of being. And... Let's see if mind is like this.

[03:09]

Maybe life, or maybe Javid and India is like that. Now, if Javid, India and mind overlap here, then you might say that Well, there is some association. So they are associated. If this over here is jivit, then this is citta. There's some kind of citta that's, for example, this out here is still being maybe, but might be, or this might be death out here. or intermediate being. Now, is there jivita in intermediate being?

[04:18]

Is there life in intermediate being? And is there life in death consciousness? Because Jivita, as you see in the next page, Jivita is support of consciousness. By definition, what were you thinking of? That's a different way of looking at that. But another sense is that if you have consciousness, it says here that the Jivita is support of vijnana. So somehow Jivita holds consciousness without being associated with it.

[05:32]

Because consciousness, there's different kinds of consciousness. There's consciousness that you call usually the consciousness of the ordinary life, the consciousness of the intermediate space, and death consciousness, and birth consciousness. You have all these different kinds of consciousness. Death consciousness, birth consciousness, what we call purvakala consciousness. In other words, consciousness which is after the birth consciousness and before the death consciousness, the name we usually call our life. And then you have intermediate, front or above, intermediate consciousness. So these are all different kinds of consciousness. In a sense, they all have life. They're all supported by life force. Now, this thing that supports this is not considered to be of mind or associated with mind. It's not joined to mind. Yes? Isn't there a time in which Javid Indra ceases?

[06:45]

So if there's consciousness, then it will be a state. What's that? Or rather, there's a time when, put it the other way, consciousness is changing all the time. It's ceasing and starting to be another thing. But Javid Indra seems to be going on. Well, we read that in a few pages, but the life force seems to, according to this, the life force seems to make continuity across changing consciousnesses. And maybe that's why Javita Indriya is not associated with mind. It's not that Javita Indriya is someplace where mind isn't, or mind is someplace where Javita Indriya is, but rather that Javita Indriya doesn't go through the same changes as mind.

[07:46]

It does go through changes, but it seems to be talking about something which isn't associated with the trials and tribulations of consciousness in the sense that it seems to support some continuity of a particular stream. And therefore, it doesn't meet the definitions of samprayukta samprayukta meaning associated associated dharmas come up together and go away together I forgot the karga number I think it might be I want to guess but in chapter 1 I believe there's a definition of samprayukta do you guys know where that is? no it's in chapter 2 isn't it? There's a definition of Sambharyukta.

[08:54]

For things to be associated, they meet these five characteristics. They're the same object. They arise together. They cease together. They're the same mode. So when things aren't associated, they aren't necessarily not connected or not related or something, but they just don't go through these same kinds of changes together. So Javit Endrea, it's hard to think of what... It's a point of Jividendria without consciousness, because it produces, it supports consciousness. And so it's also hard to see consciousness without Jividendria, yet Jividendria seems to have a somewhat different type of existence. It doesn't seem to be in the same club. It's kind of like two people that are closely related, but one has to follow different rules than another one. So in this sense, there seems to be life across what we usually call death consciousness, or transmigration of a certain consciousness.

[10:08]

Yeah, let's look and see a little bit. Yeah, death is not really death in the usual sense. I mean, it's not an end of something. It's not really a breakup, permanent breakup. But consciousness is choosing a different, consciousness is sort of putting an end to a certain line of trips. Yes? No. Then you can't follow it? Then I can't follow it. Then you can? Yeah. Consciousness and mind are the same thing. Yeah, citta. By citta, we mean consciousness and mind. Now you can follow it? Oh, really? I hate to have to split them up just to make you follow it. Okay.

[11:15]

So this is a tentative entree to this tissue, okay? This may get revised. So first, this just comes up because this... Dharma is so said to be not associated with mind. Now, the Abhidharma says that the jivita is ayus, which is translated as life. And you say, what sort of a thing is ayus? The Bhagavad said, when life Warmth and consciousness leave the body. The body lies abandoned like a forest, lacking feeling. So that makes it sound like life, warmth and consciousness can leave together.

[12:25]

They can leave the body of their group. There exists, they can leave the body as a group and then sort of keep evolving together. That's what it sounds like, doesn't it? There exists then a distinct dharma, the support of warmth and of consciousness, cause of duration of the series, and named Ayus. This is the... Sarvastavadan by Bhashaka position. This is straight stuff. Now, the Sartrantikas deny the existence in itself of Javidendriya or Ayas. And if you look to Rama, that's Rama numeral one.

[13:26]

And if you look to... That's Roman number one, and it's followed by Arabic one, and if you look to Arabic two, it says Arabic two, the sotrantikas, do you see that? Arabic two, sotrantikas, I do not deny the existence of ayus, I only say that it is, that they, that the ayus is not a thing in itself. Okay? So it's not that they deny this function that they're talking about, but they don't see the necessity of calling it a thing in itself. And I think this is worth reading, this section here. Back to the Sotrantikas deny the existence of the vital organ. Alright? So could someone... Maybe I should read.

[14:29]

They're going to stop a lot. If the iris support of warmth and consciousness, if the ayus is, by what is it itself supported? If the ayus is the support of warmth and consciousness, by what is it itself supported? See that question? Ayas supports warmth and consciousness. What supports Ayas? This is our term ticker to ask. Bhai Bhaskis say it is supported by warmth and consciousness.

[15:33]

So these support it, and it supports them. Sautantika says, if these three dharmas, life, warmth, and consciousness, support one another mutually and continue to exist, samtana pravritti means stream, you know, stream. continuity. And pravritti means to turn, keep turning or evolving or transforming. So it says, if they support one another and continue to exist, if they support one another and continue to evolve together, okay, in a stream, all right? That's what that means. Through this mutual support, how do they come to an end? Which perishes first, the destruction of which entails the destruction of the others?

[16:36]

Four, If one of them does not perish first, these three dharmas will be eternal and will not perish. Okay, so at this image, the Buddha says, when these three leave the body, the body goes to stone. Then you see these three sort of spinning off somewhere. And if one of them can't die before the others, then how could they ever end? They can just... They can just leave the body and incarnate again and leave another body and incarnate again and leave another body and incarnate again. So what would ever, how would they ever end? How are you going to describe? Are these eternal dharmas then? The only thing that doesn't die? Lavabhashaka say Ayus is supported through actions. Ayus has been projected through actions. and continues to exist as long as the projection of the actions allows it to do so.

[17:41]

So now we put in here our old friend, which is, by definition, what? Shaitana. So thinking supports this this spaceship, this flying saucer that lands and takes off, lands in the incarnation and takes off and lands into another incarnation. This whole thing is run by thought. So once again, you have thought, it gives rise to Argus, which is a diamond associated, not associated with mind. So it has an association of something, you see. But a different kind of association.

[18:44]

It's kind of like thinking produces life. It's kind of a special kind of life. Thinking gives rise to a kind of life. Then, this life gives rise to warmth and consciousness again. And then they can sort of perpetuate themselves for a while. and incarnate, and decarnate, and incarnate, and disincarnate, and so on. The source is thinking, which is also consciousness. Chaitana is a characteristic of the dhyana. So this comes back here like this, you see. But it's kind of like, I don't know if I can draw this on the board. I can do it in my hands, I think. You've got consciousness, OK? And the overall characteristic of consciousness is Chaitanā. That gives rise to life, which gives rise to warmth and consciousness, which feed back into life.

[19:52]

So this thing spins like this. But the consciousness here then comes back into Chaitanā. Chaitanā has this consciousness too. Consciousness gives rise to this thing which then is somehow free of consciousness in a sense, even though it's giving rise to consciousness itself, so it feeds back into this thing. So it has a slightly different life than consciousness per se, which gives rise to it. And yet it definitely has some kind of association and relationship to it. But it's like this is, consciousness is going through these big circles, and this life thing is going through little circles within the big circles. And consciousness is going on through the whole thing But the driving force is driving these big circles, OK? And the little circles are this particular life. And this spinning here is various incarnations that are in here, possibly. So consciousness and thinking give rise to life force, which then goes through various incarnations and comes back through consciousness again, possibly, if it dies.

[21:05]

Or even if it doesn't die, it's constantly being supported by consciousness in the first place. So there's a strange kind of involuted relationship here. Now, the satramtikas then say, if this is so, why not admit warmth and consciousness is supported by actions? And what do we have to do with ayus? In other words, why do you need ayus? Why don't you just say, consciousness gives rise to warmth. And consciousness gives rise to, I mean, karma gives rise to warmth and further consciousness. This is Chaitanya. This is consciousness in here. Why don't you just say that this gives rise to itself again and gives rise to warmth.

[22:05]

Consciousness, when it starts thinking, can reimagine itself, rethink itself. Once it can do it once, it thinks it can do it again. So that's easy. And then the special thing called warmth. Bhabashika said, that which is supported by action is in nature retribution. So now they're saying that if this is karma, chaitanā, thinking, that means it produces this, kind of this and this. That means this is retributive consciousness, and this is retributive thing. They haven't told us yet whether it's consciousness, whether it's in the dharmadhatu, or whether it's physical. But anyway, it's some kind of a dharma, or conglomeration of dharmas. Retributive, I mean it's vipaka, that means it's neutral.

[23:15]

If the consciousness was supported by action, all consciousness from womb to death would be retribution, and this is false. Hence it is necessary, hence the necessity of ayus, supportive action, supportive warmth and of consciousness. I see what they said. They said, if this is karma, then this consciousness must be retribution. And certainly, not all states of consciousness are retribution. In other words, not all states of consciousness are neutral. Some are very active. So if you put Ayus in here, you kind of distract, then this can be retribution, OK? This can be retribution. And what other kinds of things are support of consciousness and our retribution? The organs?

[24:21]

See how neat that is? How they get out of it? Try to get into it. See, they don't want consciousness to be retribution because consciousness would be retribution if it was from Deepakihetu here. But I don't know why they have that problem because not all karma produces retribution. They say it's retribution. See, they say this is retribution. So if it's retribution, they want this to be in here, which this is retribution, and this can be support of this. Just like organs are retribution, they can be support of active consciousnesses. So by saying that this is retribution, you have an intervening thing here which protects this from being retribution, because you don't want this to be retribution. Because that would mean then all the consciousnesses which arise in life could be neutral, which isn't true. But if they're supported by this thing, which is retribution, they don't have to be retribution. Just like we say that various forms of consciousness are supported by organs, which are retribution, but those consciousnesses are not retribution.

[25:24]

So this is the reason. But then the Subtranticists say, if you say that action supports warmth, and that warmth supports consciousness, Ayus is useless. So in other words, the sattrantika are not impressed by this basically theoretical adjustment that's being made here. Ayus is necessary. You can say, Ayas is necessary, for in the Yorupadatu warmth is lacking. When there's no form, apparently they're saying that whatever this warmth is, it's form. There's lacking in the Yorupadatu. This means that as the body, as these three, warmth, consciousness, and

[26:34]

life, as they leave the body, one of them is form. So in death consciousness, perhaps, there's still form. And as you go into intermediate existence, there's still five skandhas. There's still form in the intermediate existence. It's not a body, but it's a form. And for example, it's warmth. There's form there, but not a body. But if you go in the arupadatu, you won't have form. So you won't have warmth. So then they're saying, that's why you need ayus. See? Because certainly, there must be some supportive consciousness there. You say, so what would be the supportive consciousness if ayus was not there in the arupadatu? So I'm talking to you, say, consciousness And Yurupadhatu is supported by action.

[27:38]

Okay? When you're in the formless realm, the thing that supports you there is action. Namely, you thought yourself into it. That's what supports you there. So far, Sautantikas are looking good. So in the Yurupadhatu, there's karma producing consciousness. there's no usma or ayus there, according to Sajjantikas. Prabhupada says it must be there because consciousness needs a support. Now the Sajjantikas are saying that karma itself is a direct support. Prabhupada says, do you have the right to change your opinion? Sometimes you suppose that consciousness is a support of warmth, Sometimes you would want, you would, you would, sometimes you would that it be supportive action.

[28:45]

On the other hand, you have admitted one should avoid this conclusion that all consciousness from warmth to death is retribution. Consequently, Ayus exists. Supportive warmth of consciousness. And so Trantikas say, I do not deny the existence of Ayus, I only deny it that it is a thing in itself. The Vabashakas then say, then what is the Dharma that you designate under the name Ayus, life? Satyanticists say, it is a certain power that the action of previous existence places in a being at the moment of his conception. The word conception, by the way, is an interesting word. Yogacara people would like that very much, that death is a conception. And here, concept, I mean death, death is a conception too.

[29:45]

Birth is a conception. Birth is an idea. All these schools say birth is an idea, it's a consciousness. Birth is a concept, a predominant concept of a certain kind of consciousness, which is called conceptual consciousness or third consciousness. All consciousness is conceptual, unless there's no conception present, unless there's no samnya. But birth consciousness has a big concept, a big concept called birth. So it's called birth consciousness, or concept consciousness. Okay, so anyway, at the moment of conception, this being has this power that's placed in it by virtue of karma, power through which during the determined length of time the skandhas renew themselves in this homogeneous series that constitutes existence that constitutes an existence in the same way that a seed places in a sprout a certain power through which the plant develops to maturity in the same way there is a place in a shot arrow a certain power

[31:09]

which causes it to travel for a certain period to a certain place. Okay? So they're saying that this life, this business about life is what it is. It's nothing in addition to a power that comes from karma. A power that goes into consciousness up there. It supports consciousness and supports life. Maybe it's this warmth, actually. Power that goes into consciousness and will propel the consciousness for a certain amount of time, for a certain period, will propel it in this particular way, which we call existence, a life between birth and the death, implied The type of consciousness, the type of thinking that produces this power is the type of consciousness that will determine what the life will be like.

[32:23]

Now, of course, you can do many things to alter it, but there's a general, you set some basic parameters at that point for this life. This is maybe enough to stop and see if you want to talk about anything. Is this clear? Fairly clear? Yes? Pardon? Is it? I think the vaibashi could say it's found in all living beings.

[33:31]

I don't think it means warmth in the sense of temperature. That's not what this word is also used for it's one of the stages leading up to the entry into the path so it doesn't necessarily mean caloric activity so I think reptiles could have it for example reptiles getting a little bit far out but reptiles imagine a world in which it in which there is caloric activity which they can share in. Their activity, you know, contributes to the tropics. So that's where they live.

[34:32]

So you can't say exactly they don't have warmth because they imagine in one place. They're dependent on it. But then we're dependent on what we imagine too. We imagine food and air and stuff. But I'm saying this is giving the reptiles a lot of credit. If you move them to the north, they can't imagine it anymore unless they imagine themselves a heated house, which they often do. If they don't, we don't have those kind of reptiles around anymore then. But I don't think they mean here that it's warmth in the sense of temperature. Well, why don't you tell me what problems you have with it applying to plants, because I don't see the problem.

[35:36]

If I were an intermediate being, This is stuff that you have, you know, don't get tangled in the vines now. If I were an intermediate being, and I looked at a, I looked at the reproductive activity of flower, and I watched the stamen, and doing its thing, and I thought that was really neat. I sort of got into that. I could be reincarnated as a flower. That's the kind of thinking that flowers do. They think the way flowers function.

[36:38]

And that's how being finds itself in flowers. Same way. The being moves out of the flower. Starts spinning around, goes into intermediate existence, and sees some lizards copulating and thinks that they're really groovy. That's really interesting stuff. And they're reborn as a lizard. Wyatt, are you? Want to talk about lizards some more?

[37:42]

It has to do with whether you think you're a lizard or not. If you think you're a lizard and you're in a place where you can move or you're uncommitted, if you think you're a lizard now, that's all fine. But you've sort of indebted yourself right now. to a certain form of existence. So although you may think that, it's basically just what we might call, not even thinking, but you just talk, kind of. You really don't have the ability to make the move. But when you're in a place where you can go anywhere, where you're really uncommitted to human existence, per se, Not you, but when consciousness is uncommitted to human existence. And even it's not only uncommitted to it at that moment, but also is not that interested in it either from past recollections. Say a being who was a human recently.

[38:47]

And sort of didn't, was very, maybe had a really bad human life, for example. really bad, and they kind of remembered it that way, and they're really not interested in doing the human trip again. They say it's good. I heard it was good. It looked good. They've got books, these humans write books saying it's the greatest opportunity, but I had a really terrible time. I'm going to be a plant. One can have memory if one wishes to have memory. If one thinks that one has memory, one has memory. Yes, you definitely think in the intermediate. There are five skandhas in intermediate existence. But remember, there's intermediate existence in this existence, too. In this human incarnation that we're in right now, there's intermediate existence all the time.

[39:48]

Every day you go through many intermediate existences. But those are intermediate existence after this big commitment's already been made. So you can't actually change bodies. Unless you're quite a yogi, you can't change bodies within this commitment system. However, in those intermediate existences, you can choose various forms of incarnation within human life. So we have six realms within one realm. As human beings, we can experience all six realms. You can experience the essence of animal while being human. You can be born as a lizard while being a human. You can experience the essence of being a lizard while being a human. But you can't incarnate as a lizard within this incarnation. You have to get rid of your association with this body. Then you go by death consciousness. And you can do it today if you want. And you also don't need to rip your body into shreds to do it. Just do it if you want to.

[40:48]

In the intermediate existence, from there you can go where you want. You can be a lizard if you want. You can be a plant if you want. By being afraid. For example, if you go up to a lizard and you go like this, they run, they always run away. Or they attack if you're closer. Usually they run away. They always have fear. So you can, by thinking certain confused ways, you can work yourself into a kind of instinctual level of existence. Or if somebody puts their finger up like this, you'll roll over and bark. They do it like this, you'll run that way. In other words, you're operating on, you're like a Pavlovian dog. That's your existence. And people, by thinking various, for example, people who lie a lot, will project themselves into a Pavlovian state of existence.

[41:50]

People lie and steal. Their behavior will often get involved in behavior, which is very much like animal behavior, based on fear and conditioned responses. In that way, they can create animal-type life while being human. To examine the mind that follows lying and stealing, that's the kind of mind that it is, you have to be able to discriminate which ones are connected to which ones, but that's the teaching. Yes? What about retribution determined? Intermediate state itself is retribution. Okay? Intermediate state is retribution, and Are you talking about intermediate state now?

[43:06]

Oh, certainly. Human life is retribution. The human incarnation, the human destiny is retribution. So you are born with a human body. That's retribution. That's your kind of retributive inheritance. Because in the intermediate state, That's your context, you see. Then in that state, you did something. That's not retribution. So, in the intermediate state, in the uncommitted state, when you can go anywhere, that's the context, but there's also opportunities to do active karma. If you do active karma, like, I want to be a dog, or I want to be a lizard, or I want to be a human, then that active karma projects you into that birth. You don't need to... It's not a doctrine. As I said yesterday, it's not a doctrine. It's a story. It's certainly influenced.

[44:11]

For example, if you're in an intermediate state, like, let's say right now you're in an intermediate state in this life, you just spend being angry, okay? In an intermediate state where you have no particular commitments, What are you going to think about doing? You think about what you quite, you know, what you're good at. And what are you good at? Well, you're good at probably what you're just doing or what you usually do. And if you're always angry, it's very likely that you'll choose your anger tools. So you whip them up there and you'll say, okay, now, where can I go? And you got your guns out and, hey, that looks good over there. Where will it be? Where will it be? Hell. Hell. But sure, it would be more like You're really greedy. You're a multi-billionaire, and you're squashing people all the time. Not killing them, but kind of like tricking them, getting their money away. Hey, look at that way. This is a good deal, isn't it? Greed for power, which verges on heaven, that kind of thing. Not just ordinary greed, but power greed.

[45:14]

If you're just doing a lot of that, right at the moment you've died and you've been doing it your whole life, then you're uncommitted. However, what are you going to think of doing? It's boring here. What can I do? Hmm. If you look at the shirt of birth, that's where you'd like to go. Those people do it all full time. Good, I'll go there. But you don't even think that, you don't even really realize you want to go there. Actually, you're a little bit surprised often. You don't realize the implications of your thinking. So you're, you want, what you want is a fight and you wind up in hell. You don't know you're going to hell. You wouldn't, you said, those people are really badly off. You don't see that that's what naturally goes with you being, murdering people. But it does. You think, as a matter of fact, probably. So in other words, when you look at hell, you don't see it as hell. Looks pretty good when you look at it from this state of mind. Anger state of mind, intermediate state, hell looks good. You think, you look at hell, and you think those iron, red hot iron necklaces they have on are really beautiful shining gold.

[46:19]

You could say, oh boy, that looks good. But the reason why you think it looks good is because you're so angry. Then you get there and they say, here's your necklace, sir. This is quite hot, isn't it? Gee, I didn't realize. When you're in hell, you realize that what looked good is really troublesome. And the reason why it looked good is because your vision was clouded by this trip you're on called anger in the intermediate state. Before you were angry in the intermediate state, you looked at hell and you said, Gee, those folks, that doesn't look too good there. I don't think I'll go there. And also he looked at the human realm and said, Well, it's not as bad as hell, but they do have trouble. The women have trouble. The men have trouble. Kids have trouble. Old people, they all seem to have some problems.

[47:24]

I'm quite free of problems here. But it is boring here. I can't exactly flex my stuff, you know, because I don't exactly... They say that the intermediate being is like a six-year-old, five-year-old child, you know. They really don't have this stuff yet. They're kind of a five-year-old child or a six-year-old child. It's quite intelligent, you know. They're quite smart. They can write poetry and play the piano and stuff like that. They can do mathematics and, you know, they understand just about everything, 99%. But they don't have a certain kind of, they don't have much kind of like power trips yet. So they look around, you know, and all these interesting power trips available. So then they get a little, they get it on, you know,

[48:26]

one of these types of emotions comes up, then by virtue of that emotion, then they look, when they get into this emotional state, then they look around again and somehow the landscape has changed. These things don't look that way. They don't quite, now the human realm maybe doesn't look so bad. Now hell doesn't look so bad. Now heaven doesn't look so bad. Before they looked at heaven and they saw, yeah, it's nice up there, but it has its problems. For example, I noticed these people don't want to leave, but they have to. And still, once you're in heaven, you're in heaven, and that has its limitations. So the intermediate being, and they're really just truly intermediate, they're quite free. But they get bored, so they get on emotional trips. And the emotional trips they try on will very likely be ones that are easy to do for them, that they've done before. when they had some other incarnation. Then these various alternatives, which all have drawbacks, these various commitments, which once you make them, you're in them, and you've got to stay in them for quite a while until you think of the death consciousness again.

[49:39]

And apparently it's not that easy to think of the death consciousness. You have to be pushed to the limit before you think of it. Because it's contradictory to your commitment to what you thought yourself into. You didn't think yourself into death consciousness. The situation you're into, as it says here, you project yourself into an existence which has a certain power and a certain direction. So death consciousness has to sort of turn around against that. It's quite an effort. Even when the situation really gets rough, people have trouble thinking of it. Yes? No. Whenever you get on a trip and you play it, you keep escalating it until finally you just feel like you have to get out of it.

[50:56]

And you really do it. You create a death conscious within that little cycle. You end it and you go into the intermediate state. You go into the intermediate states I don't know how many times a day. It depends on person to person. It depends on the trips you get on. Some people stay in the intermediate state a lot in a day. I think if you're sitting in Zaza and you may have more or less intermediate states than others, it depends on how far you push stuff before you get sick of them. But when you get on trips, trips can be your posture. If you're sitting some way like this, it has a certain trip value. And after a while, this gets to be too much. And then you just give it up. And there you are for a moment before you decide to get on the next trip. At that point, you learn a lot. So watch for the intermediate stakes in your life. The only way you notice the intermediate state is by meditation.

[52:04]

The only way you notice them and learn what they are is by meditation. Or another way to put it is, noticing them and learning what they are is meditation. So that's what the Arabidharma is doing. It's pointing out that you might be able to find these things. So look. And if you find them, I think you'll be delighted. You'll notice some interesting things. You'll watch yourself. Then you'll start noticing your trips. You'll start noticing your trips' escalation. You start noticing how you end them. You'll notice what happens after. You'll notice how you get bored. You'll notice how you look for stuff to do. You'll notice how what you look for doing will tell us where you go, and you'll see it. And so you'll see how you work. And the same thing happens across incarnations. So there's, you know, worlds within worlds within worlds, contained within worlds within, so on. Yes? It's different from emptiness. It's just another form of existence. But it's uncommitted.

[53:06]

You're just not on a trip. However, intermediate existence has a relationship to emptiness in the sense that it's very easy in that situation to get with emptiness. Because you're not distracted by your commitments. So intermediate state is a good place to get enlightened. And that's Tibetan Book of the Dead is partly directed to enlighten people in that gross, that big intermediate existence, which lasts for quite a while. Sometimes 49 days, they say. Or as the Abhidharma Kosha says. And the Tibetan Book of the Dead follows the Abhidharma Kosha. But during our daily life, too, various moments are intermediate states, and it's a good chance for you to look at emptiness in those states. But you can look at emptiness in the other ones, too. It's just a little harder. But to see, within, [...] there's always intermediate, within, intermediate. You know, there's always these spaces.

[54:08]

In other words, there can always be a point when you can see clearly and uncommittedly, where you can have a balanced perception. And there, you always have the chance of saying, hey, wait a minute. This is boring, but boredom has no meaning aside from excitement. Hey, wait a minute. Maybe I don't have to do anything. Maybe it's all right here. Maybe I don't have to go on any trips. Hey. Goodie. So intermediate is such an intermediate realm, intermediate type of existence is in existence by its boring nature. Your eyes are quite clear. Since you have, you're not You're not tempted at that point when you're really in an intermediate state. You see these other opportunities, but you see that they're not such hot stuff. And you're just sort of there, which is pretty good. Then to see that just being there also is inseparable from the other ones and so on, you can develop a more penetrative, you can develop insight.

[55:16]

Just being there is not itself insight. It's just kind of a happy virtue of all this trash we go through. As you swing from one side to the other, You get some perspective. But you have to get uncommitted for a while before you get committed again. But those times are quite quick. You have to look carefully. But the funny thing is, the more you look, the more you see them. Because even looking is sort of uncommitted activity. Now, if you're looking to find something, and you want to find something, that's not exactly uncommitted. That's maybe Asura. Maybe you're trying to be a powerful meditator, take over the world. But that way you won't be so likely to find these intermediate states. You have to have a sort of non-gaining search. And if you look, you'll find them. You'll find yourself. And so Zen monks get bored. And right in that boredom is a likely place to find this uncommitted place where you can do anything or you can just stay there and not do anything.

[56:23]

You can do anything and you can also not do anything. It's a very good place to be. Okay, so we'll continue. Next time we'll talk about, read about death, okay? Next time we'll talk about death. Hope you can remember. So this is what life is. Next time we'll talk about what death is. Death is not death consciousness. . [...]

[57:34]

. [...] Thank you. because it was a lot so rotten.

[58:40]

Then, when the parents were getting in for the summer, they didn't do that, but they did maybe even a hundred thousand family couples. And I think to say it was the term to prevent the right themselves. Chapter 2. So I think that it would be good to start by looking again to review this section on life, on Javit Endriya, what you call chitta viprayukta samskara, which is called Javit Endriya.

[60:20]

And it's chitta viprayukta because... Why is it chitta viprayukta? Why is it not associated with mind? Anybody? Yeah, but it can't really know it because it's not a shift at some point. The mind can what? It can't really know it because it's a mind state. It's not part of mine.

[61:24]

It's not part of mine. It's not a mental state. But it is... Yes? What she just said, I think I said. And that may not be right. But thank you. remind me of what I said. So what she said was that mind can conjure this up.

[62:29]

What Pam said is mind can conjure this up but doesn't necessarily know it. And I would say also that mind can conjure it up and mind can know it sometimes but still it's not necessarily mind. Now, Sampreyukta, yes? Would you say that it's present even in the .. Since it is present even .. There are various unconscious things that exist in those states. . Yeah, that's another way to point out why it's chitta viprayupta.

[63:36]

Okay? So jivit indri is chitta viprayupta because of these two reasons that they brought up. And it's true what you said. Within life, it's true. But across life, I think we have to make it a little bit more delicate discriminations. She said that the Javidendria will exist through situations where mind won't be there. Is that what you said? And Eric sort of gave a particular example of that. Namely, in the Neuroda Simopathy, for example, there's still jivya indriya. But the answer, the simple question, the most simple answer is one that no one gave, and that is, the reason why this isn't, why it's chitta viprayukta is because it doesn't meet the characteristics of chitta samprayukta.

[64:49]

And the characteristics of samprayukta dharmas, chitta have certain have five criteria, which Javita Indra doesn't have. And one of the, one of the ones, one of the most salient ones that won't, it won't satisfy, is namely, when mind dies, Chittasamprayukta Dharmas die, when mind comes up, Chittasamprayukta Dharmas come up. They're closely associated. So the Those dharmas, chaita dharmas, are the ideal example. Mind always comes up with them, and they never come up without mind. Chitta comes up, for example, samadhi comes up, and sparsha comes up, and samnya comes up, and vedana comes up. They always come up together, and one doesn't come up without the other one. But Javita India doesn't fulfill that quality, doesn't fulfill the samprayukta.

[65:56]

criterion, and it's not formed. Therefore, we say it's a dharma that's not associated with mind. Not associated doesn't mean it doesn't have anything to do with it. It means it doesn't meet the five criteria called samprayukta. Samprayukta is a very tight kind of association. So we already know then that mind can conjure up, or, you know, anyway, mind thinks, okay? Mind thinks. Chaitana means thinking, or the overall main pattern in mind. That's the definition of karma, which produces jihindriya. Vita. Jivita is Ayus.

[66:57]

So mind can think this up, and mind can know this or not know this. But anyway, it thinks it up. So it's produced by mind, but it isn't associated with mind in the same way that mental events are. It's produced by mind? Yeah. It's produced by mind in the sense that it's produced by karma. Jivita and Ayus are the result of karma. and that the Satrantikas and the Vaibhashikas will agree on this. And, of course, Vijnanavadans will also agree with this. Madhyamikas will not agree with this. They'll say that none of this stuff is produced in the first place. All right. Yes? That Ayus has no object of support.

[68:24]

Ayus are you talking about? Well, IAS does have support. What does it support? No, what does it support? Karma. Karma. They mutually support each other, but primarily it's supported by consciousness. See, I mean, primarily it's supported by karma. Now, karma, consciousness usually isn't considered to be a support except when it just perished, OK? But karma within here is vinyana too, OK?

[69:32]

That's how we talk about these mistakes in the circle. You just didn't hear the circle within a big circle. Jan is here, here, producing this, producing that. However, there can be... Now it looks like there can be... Not only can there be... when mind and mental states are depressed. But it looks like there can be mind and mental states when Javita Indriya is depressed. But Javita Indriya, that particular thing called life here, is not characteristic. Although it's produced by all minds, it's not characteristic.

[70:33]

I mean, all the minds produce it. It's not characteristic of all minds. And it can exist with our mind. So there's some independence here. So when mind and mental states are suppressed, are not functioning by virtue of . So here's karma, OK? Karma can produce this life thing, OK? And karma can also produce neuroticomopathy. Now, karma produces both life And it produces neurotic homopathy. But in this case, this means that what consciousness has produced is the suppression of consciousness. So consciousness can produce life and the suppression of itself. Consciousness can also then take away life and continue itself.

[71:40]

It's all generated by consciousness. Consciousness is generating life and itself, generating life and expression of itself, generating the end of life and the continuation of itself. Then from the continuation of itself, generating life again and the continuation of itself and the suppression of itself while life keeps going and then the end of life. So these various patterns are possible. That's why Javine injury is not associated with mind. When you suppress mind and mental states, all the associated dharmas get suppressed, but not Javita Indriya. When you give rise to mind, mental states come up, but not necessarily Javita Indriya. So there's this complex sort of undulating interweaving of these phenomena. And the key here will be

[72:40]

to account for the phenomena of death and rebirth, of incarnation, of disincarnation. Yes? So is Javid Indriya lacking in Antirabhava? Currently, I think it is. Last week, I thought it wasn't. Last week, I thought that Javid Indriya was in Antirabhava. This week I think it isn't. Anybody in the class will think it is again. If you want me to decide, let me know. I'll try. Is that what you were talking about? Consciousness continuing, but you need envy of stopping? Right. In Unshara Baba, so in Unshara Baba, so the death consciousness comes, but the death consciousness doesn't put an end to five stambles. with five standards in the Antra Bhava too, but there's not warmth.

[73:46]

And the reason why I think now that there's not warmth in Antra Bhava is because in this discussion on page... I don't know what page you're on, but anyway, in the discussion between the Vaibhashikas and the Sartrantikas, Maybe we can quickly go through this. Listen carefully, because this is going to go fast. The satranticists say that ayus is not a thing in itself. So here's what the satranticists would say. They say there is something called consciousness or thinking, which is parma. That produces Again, further vijnana and warmth. Okay.

[74:57]

So I don't see the necessity of this. I use a judeed injury as a thing itself, aside from the fact that karma produces vijnana and warmth. The Vipadshikas say, if you have karma directly producing vijnana, then this vijnana will be vipaka, will be retribution, will be neutral. Then all the vijnanas for a whole lifespan would be neutral, but that can't be so. Therefore, they have to have some intervening vipaka state, retributable state, not retributable, but retributive state, to absorb the neutrality So they want to put something in here so that the karma won't directly produce the vinyana. Because they don't want this vinyana to be epocha, hollow. So structurally speaking, they feel they need this. They need it to be something real rather than just a... For them, what the theory needs is real.

[76:01]

If the theory needs it, it's a real thing. It's light, it's a real, really important issue. Sautantikas don't need this theory. So they can see that karma directly produces vinyan. Of course it does. That by bhaktikas agree also. But they want this in between so that this vinyan doesn't have to be neutral itself. It doesn't have to be a result. So the satanthikas take this out. And then the bhaktikas say, well, what would you, what is, you know, what we call a life or a jivinindya, what do you call that? I mean, what do you have to do that function? And they say... What they would call that is that at the moment of birth, this first consciousness, the power of karma infused that stream of consciousness, that series, with this kind of power. What do they call it? It is a power of karma, of action, from the previous existence.

[77:09]

that's imbued to the being at the moment of conception. And this power projects this dream for a certain length of time. It sets a certain trajectory for warmth at the moment of conception. And that trajectory can be shortened, as we'll discuss. It can be shorter than that. It can't be longer than that. Okay? So that's what the Vaibhashikas would say. I mean, that's what the Sotrantikas say. Vaibhashikas say that there's actually a thing called life that's produced. And then that, again, produces these other phenomena, and it goes along with them. I didn't say warmth wasn't a dharma, did I?

[78:23]

So what do you know what dharma is warmth? Well, I know what dharma is warmth. So what dharma is warmth? The Vaibhashikas bring it up. So for them, it must be a dharma. Which dharma is it? Energy? It might be energy, but it also might be... Instead of being a mental phenomenon, it might be a form, it might be something physical. So that's a good question. What is warmth? If the Abashikas are bringing it up, it must be composed of dharmas or be equal to a dharma. I think that if we just keep this in mind, it may come out as we talk.

[79:27]

We're going to try to find out what this is and what life is. Yes? As soon as you say that, what they mean by the world was the temperature. It's not only temperature, right? Well, I usually still say it's not only temperature, but it's not only temperature. The four great elements, all right, one of them is fire. But, and so fire has, when you see fire as a physical thing, it has warmth to a great extent, or it has fire element in it to a great extent. But all physical experience entailed the experience of fire. So even in a state where there wasn't Javid Indriya, the being could relate to physical phenomena.

[80:39]

And in that relationship to physical phenomena, the being would have the capacity to experience through the essential dynamic or through the essential quality called fire. So if a being was in anterabhava and didn't have warmth in this sense, still they could relate to warmth. I mean, still they could relate to physicality through the dimension, that aspect of relating to physical phenomena, which is called the essential quality or the essential capacity of fire. Just seeing a color or smelling something. Fire is involved, this kind of fire, this kind of warmth. We're talking now about a special warmth that happens at conception. Okay?

[81:43]

And this warmth is discriminated from vijnana as something in addition to vijnana. And this warmth and this vijnana interact and are mutually support and are supported by, according to Vaibhashikas, this thing called life. Now the Sathantikas don't see the need for this thing called life, so for them this warmth and this consciousness must be part of what has to do with this power which they see engendered at the moment of conception. So warmth must be associated with this phenomenon called life. And life is the phenomenon that sort of seems to determine the kind of, seems to go with a lifespan or go with a lifespan.

[82:45]

It's like if we call the warmth the power, You know, tentatively, you can maybe say that the warmth is the power that's imbued at the moment of conception. Or that warmth is inextricably related to the power that's imbued to the being at the moment of conception, which goes for the duration of the lifespan. Who says you beat a song's retribution?

[84:02]

Vibhashikas wanted to be retribution. Because they wanted to take this place. They wanted to absorb the retribution. Right? Okay. Yeah, well, I'm trying to... I guess I should be clear that I was trying to explain it without using Javid Indriya, trying to explain what usma is, what want is. If you say that there's a thing called Javid Indriya, then start talking about want. It's a different discussion. But anyway, what was your point, Lucia? .

[85:05]

. My first response is that, at the moment, you're not born into Arup Yadatu. They are? You can't go into Arup Yadatu. You can't be born there. You can't go from antarabhava to a rupadhatu. You first have to be born in, to be actually conceived, the moment of conception, you cannot go from antarabhava to a rupadhatu.

[86:17]

A rupadhatu is arrived at, you can be born there through meditation, but the meditation comes from rupadhatu, and then from rupadhatu comes from kamadhatu. You can be born in heavens, which is a result from practicing in the meditations in the rupi dhatu. You can be born in the heavens of the rupi dhatu. But in that case, you go into anterabhava and go into these heavens. These heavens are not a rupi dhatu. When you're born there, you can practice meditation, a rupi dhatu meditations, and you can go into the heavens, but those heavens are not a rupi dhatu. in the sense of being born there as a destiny. You don't go, you aren't, you don't go through, uh, under bhava to get to those. They're in the same, they're within the same lifespan.

[87:18]

Okay? You're human, you're born in human destiny. That's your destiny. Then from there you go into rupadattu, and then you go into those heavens. But beings are not born in a rupadattu through under bhava. I don't know exactly why that is so. No, I say you can go from a Rupi Datu Meditations, you can go to a Rupi Datu Heavens. Yes? You don't see the difference? Well, I guess a couple weeks ago,

[88:31]

Well, that's the issue here anyway, is that the Sattranta could say that this power that we're talking about is prajnyapti. It's not... Yeah, they're just talking about this thing called life that we have some concern with. So now they're saying that this that there's this power. Let's say that, they say, let's say there's this power. There's some power that comes at the moment of conception that determines the lifespan. Life, there is a lifespan. Lifespan itself is not a thing in itself. It's a, it's something that somehow, it's part of our, it's part of the phenomenality, phenomenology or whatever of human suffering, of samsara, okay? Part of the, mundane world is this experience of a lifespan.

[89:36]

Now they say, well, let's just say, okay, then, at the moment of birth, there is a lifespan set by virtue of karma. A certain projective possibility is there. A potential life is imbued at the moment of birth. But the power can is due to karma. In other words, by virtue of your thinking, you have chosen a certain lifespan. By virtue of what you're interested in, what you're looking at, what you're looking at, and therefore what you're interested in, by thinking that way, by directing your thoughts in that direction, you have just chosen yourself, a human life with a certain lifespan. But that's just, let's say that. Because people think that way, and also let's say there's a power that makes it go that distance. That's prajnapta. That's not a thing in itself. They say, I do not deny the existence of ayus.

[90:39]

I only say that ayus is not a thing in itself. So they don't say there isn't a lifespan and there isn't something that makes a lifespan different from not a lifespan or a death span. They don't say that. They say, okay, it's just not a thing in itself. In other words, if you try to find it, you won't. If you look very carefully at the situation, you won't be able to grasp this thing called ayus or life. But, okay, so let's say it's a power that comes at the moment of conception. The moment of conception, in other words, does not tell us, as we look at it, anything about lifespan. And yet, there is a subtle implication in the choice of how you are conceived in the form of birth conception, there is an implication there of a lifespan. That implication is due to how you thought about the conception. Whether you're interested in human beings copulating, frogs copulating, or gods copulating.

[91:45]

By virtue of your interest, there's an implication there of what kind of lifespan you want. If you choose beings, In Jambut Bipa, in India, and they're humans, and you think a certain way about them, you choose a 70-year life, or whatever it is, you know. If you choose at this part of the Kalpa, it's a very long life. If you choose at that part of the Kalpa, it's a very short life. And where you are in the Kalpa has to do with what you think, too, and when you choose to be born, and when you chose to die. So, what they're saying is that When you conceive a birth, although they can't exactly explain in the process of birth how it is that you determine your lifespan, in fact, there's this implication by virtue of which kind of life you chose. That, in one case, they say is a real thing. In another case, you say it's a power.

[92:48]

And what is the power? It's the power of your thinking. It's an ability to shape what happens because you think you can shape what happens. So that's why you chose birth, is you thought you can do something, and by the way you thought you could do things, that way of thinking that you can do things will continue to do that in a certain way for a certain length of time. So they call it a power. But it's not a thing in itself aside from the karma, you see. It's just the karma. But they want to say, well, there's a certain twist to the karma. And... So we call it a certain power in addition to making the birth, which is kind of the crucial thing, there's also this built-in projection, you know. In this thing here, there's also this. You can't see this now, so call, there's something in here, some power in here, okay, which can do this. Now, the sattranticists say, it's just a...

[93:54]

kind of fiction that we say it's a thing other than just karma itself. But somehow people can't understand that karma can do this and also karma does this in another time and space. So they say it's a power that will do this for you or something. But karma does that, see? So they say that. But that's just talk. Whereas if a bhagyakas, because of their system, they say, well, there's really a thing here, right here. alongside here, that runs along and tells us what to do and tells us how long it will live. Rather than this thing, they also admit this thing comes from karma, and they both come from karma. ... ...difference there. In other words, the difference would be the Vaibhashika to keep referring to this solid thing. Sartramtikas won't even bring it up unless you make them. So they say, okay, I don't admit it doesn't exist. Well, what is it? Okay, it's power.

[94:55]

It's just not a thing in itself. What do you say? Well, if you say it's power, then you...

[95:01]

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