Tape 5, Continuing Lecture, August 25th, 80. Won't incarnate again. Then they've got these bills due in lives that they won't be there to pay. They won't be there, or maybe not bills, but more. They've got, what do you call it, accounts outstanding. They've got stuff coming to them. good or bad, retribution coming to them. They've got money coming, happy days coming, and they've got sickness coming to them and poverty and disasters that they will get in succeeding lifetimes, but they won't be there, so they have to, they can't have this karmic dangling out there. So what they do in the last part of their life, in the time they're ahad until they don't come back anymore, they have to have a crash course to collect everything.

[01:03]

So there's this kind of burnout at the end where they collect all kinds of karma that more than you might expect because in this life probably they've been quite good and they probably all the immediate retribution they've already gotten and a lot of the karma that they get from this life they've already gotten too. And for a number of years they've been not doing anything that will give them any further karma so there's almost nothing coming down on them anymore. except human destiny, which that's why I say we talk about that. And that is, then all of a sudden, you know, they start eating pork and getting sick and stuff like that, and stubbing their toe, and Devadatta pushes boulders down on them, and their cousins send elephants running at them and stuff like that. These are things that happened to Shakyamuni Buddha. Every time it happened, the monk said, if you're so good, how come that happened? He said, well, in the past life, I was a I was a head monk at a monastery and I was too strict.

[02:08]

Or, you know, so on. So now I'm collecting. I was supposed to get this later, but since I'm not coming back. That's right. Being incinerated like that, you can burn up a lot. in a short period of time. But look at St. John of the Cross, I mean, my God. He's a, you know, a great example of this. I mean, somehow this semi-illiterate guy writes almost the best poetry in the history of Spanish language somehow pulled that out of a closet where he's rotting away. And, uh, generally considered to be by his contemporaries a saint a great inspiration you know he's also a dwarf and but when he's dying I mean he's just a pile of putrescence so a lot of examples of this but some of them some of them don't have that pattern you know and they just just cruise right off

[03:32]

They just don't happen to have a lot of stuff to burn up, so they just look really good as they pass away. That can happen too. You don't have to have a lot of bad karma to collect later. Some people have good karma. And not only do they have good karma, but they also are enlightened. Some people are enlightened but have a lot of bad karma in their background. And some of the ones that have bad karma are more enlightened than the ones that have good karma. But anyway... If they think they're going to not come back, then they have to, logically speaking, they have to burn it up. Whereas bodhisattvas can go away nicely because they can come back later. You know, like, what's this called? It's such a great story, you know, that one of them. You know, Brer Fox and Brer Rabbit and Brer Bear. Tar Baby is a great Buddhist story. And then also the thing of, don't throw me anything in, in the briar patch, and also... Oh, the other one is... The Billy Goat Gruff.

[04:38]

That's another one. Don't get me. Get my big brother. Don't get me. Get my bigger brother. The Bodhisattva, because they're coming back, gets to postpone all their trouble. But they never actually collect it. Because by the time it's actually... They're there, and the biggest brother or biggest sister is there to collect it. You can't give it to him anymore. Now see here, you've been postponing this all this time. Now here, oh my God, it's a Buddha. Well, forget it. So anyway, you have this effect. Now the problem is what... I'm sorry I was late today, by the way. So I'm going to make up the class now that you can leave. The problem is, why is it that the arhat doesn't even get to be an undefiled neutral, namely just be a human?

[05:44]

Because this pain in itself is undefiled neutral. It's an unrestless pain, just sort of sitting there and accepting it. the rock falls on Buddha's toe and the blood comes out and he says, well, yeah, David Dodd did that because of such and such. It hurts, but, you know, don't worry about it. Why that undefiled state of human being having a body and so on, why is it, why does it say you can't go from the path here to that state? Why are they making that point? That's one way to put it, is that the same dharmas, which would be ordinarily like dharmas without flow, which would ordinarily be considered undefiled neutral, are now because of this strange miracle called...

[07:11]

entering the path, their character changes somehow, but it looks just exactly like what you'd call undefiled neutral, but somehow it's different. Namely, you'd call a person an extreme enterer, or a once-returner, a never-returner, or an arhat. So they're walking around, stubbing their toes, and eating, and sleeping, and sweeping leaves. sitting sada and offering incense and giving lectures and listening to lectures and... looks just like undefiled, looks like human life. But it's called the path. So it's not really possible to go from there to someplace else. Once you're on the path, you're on the path. And the path here is separated from the three worlds. It's not particularly profound, this chart, in that sense. I mean, it's profound, but it's not that complicated. those pure realms are actually separated from the triple world. So once you're in them, you can't go back.

[08:14]

So it's just that. Now it says, but what about where it says you can go from pure to wholesome? So why do they do that? Why do they say you can go from pure to wholesome, but not pure to undefiled neutral? Why do they allow you partial participation in the world? Why not complete participation in the world? Well, I would suggest that, once again, it's an example of skill and means. That although the arhat's activity and streamliner's activity is not wholesome karma, it's not wholesome karma, they will allow us to speak of it as such. they will allow us to speak of it that way because what they do looks like wholesome karma.

[09:19]

But you can't see anyone do undefiled neutral. It's not something you can observe as a karmic activity when they're in ahad. What you see is pure activity when they're just not doing anything. All you can see is is their activity. And the activity that you can see is always good. It would always look good. Undefiled neutral is a retributive state. You cannot observe another person's retribution. For example, you cannot observe my ability to see. You cannot observe my ability to feel my retribution. You cannot observe my capacities. You can observe the area where my capacities are located.

[10:23]

And therefore the area in which my capacities are located happens to be the area in which I execute karma also. So if you look in the area where my capacities are located, you will also see me do things. But if I'm an arhat, you'll only see me do what appears to be good, namely that I will be decorous. And I will look like I have self-respect. I will not violate any precepts. Even though I'm no longer following the pratimoksha rules, I'm now doing what's called a discipline without... that has no outflows a discipline without leaks but it will still look good it will never violate the precepts even though it's not stuck in the precepts so is that clear? really they're not doing good karma but it will look that way really they're not doing any karma at all

[11:35]

They're not doing anything to project any further implications for themselves. All they want to do is be free. They don't want to do any good karma. But still, this recognizes that they will look that way. They will look decorous. They cannot not look decorous. They will fulfill the things that will make a person look like they're doing good karma. And in fact, they will also look like they're receiving the effects of good karma because they'll be in health and so on. But you can't observe retribution in another person. You can think you can, but you really don't. Retribution is for me. It comes into my life stream, and you can't see it. Now, if I have retribution and tell you about it, you can think I'm telling you about it. You can, you know, I can make those forms and so on. But anyway, our hearts are really doing no karma anymore. But they make a concession here.

[12:38]

for you for us say well and if you look on the chart that they make of the the 89 states of consciousness to the Theravada there they have a good column they have good kamadhatu good rupadhatu good arupadhatu and then good of what they call lokottara or uttara loka or something like that anyway the The super mundane realm, they have under the good column. It's under the good column, but it's not good karma. So actually, the Arhat is, the streamliners are divorced from the world. They have transcended the world. They don't, and that's why there's this estrangement here. By the way, do you want to study this chart any more next week, or do you want to go on to Chapter 3?

[13:44]

How many want to go on? How many want to go on? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. How many want to continue studying this? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. So most want to go on to Chapter 3. All right. What were you going to say? Who had a question? Yes. The same question I asked six months ago, which is a question that only people who are not on the path can follow the precepts. Is that a good thing to say? Only people who are not on the path, and not all of those, can follow the precepts with an understanding that there was an option. For the people on the path, they follow them, but they don't think there's an option. For them, for the people on the path, following the precepts is not exactly a discipline in terms of limiting them to those rules.

[14:56]

They're already doing them. That's their natural way. So for them, it's not really a discipline. For the people who think, you see, for the people who aren't on the path, And not necessarily all the people aren't on the path. Some of the people aren't on the path have already understood this. But for some of the people who aren't on the path, it's a discipline for them to follow the precepts. They have to discipline themselves. They have to go, get in there. Come on. Stop doing that. Get over there. Stand up. Sit up. They have to force themselves not to do certain things and do other things. That's a discipline. And that discipline is called the rules and rituals discipline. precepts and manners. And they limit themselves. For the arhat, that way of behaving is not a discipline. They don't have to discipline themselves to do it. For them, their discipline is to be without leaks.

[16:00]

That's their discipline. The only thing they have to watch out for is to not think dualistically. But that transcends the level of rules. So they're under the discipline to think perfectly according to what they think perfectly is. They think thinking perfectly is to think without outflows, to think purely. That's their discipline. And there's another discipline called dhyana samvara. It's the discipline of these dhyanas that you discipline yourself into thinking that way and projecting yourself in these higher states. And you can't do those dhyana disciplines unless you do the paddhi moksha disciplines. And you can't do the, you can't really freely do the anasarava samvaras, the non-leaking samvaras, unless you can do the other ones. Unless you can do them. You don't have to do them, but you have to be able to do them. Even though they don't apply to you anymore. Okay? One more question? Change of vote to stay on these?

[17:04]

The next chart, you mean the 20? So what does that make it? 6 and 9? 6 and 8? Well, I suppose the people... I don't know. We'll see what happens. Anyway, why don't you get your chapter 3 and start reading it. And either we'll do a little bit more this next time or the whole period or whatever, or we'll go on to chapter 3. In fact... The people, the slow people can, it's easy for them to slow down the fast people, because all I have to do is ask questions the next time. So I guess I want myself, I want to go to Chapter 3, because most people want to go to Chapter 3. But if anybody has any questions on Chapter 2, I think everyone would be happy to have your questions answered. So I'm not going to bring up this Chapter 2 anymore. But if you want to ask questions about it for three or four months, I'm sure they'll be interesting.

[18:13]

Anything else? By the way, I'm going to tell you one thing. I'll tell this to the advanced class too. What I'm thinking of doing actually is the next fall to have one class in Abhidharma. And probably with the advanced class, people will take a sabbatical from Abhidharma or something, and then try to push this class up through Chapter 3 and Chapter 4 during the next four months. And then in the winter, start studying Chapter 5, and the people who are in the advanced class can continue studying Chapter 5 at that time. I guess I'll have to.

[19:15]

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