The antirabhava is not exactly karmic existence. It's a lot like a gati. But it's not really a gati. Antirabhava is in kamadhatu. It's also in the rupadhatu. On the rupadatta, you have the same breakdown. You have gati. You have pajama loka. It contains the physical container. But this pajama loka is different from this pajama loka. Who makes this pajama loka? You do. Huh? You do. And what kind of you do you make this? Does everybody make this pajama loka?

[01:06]

Huh? Meditation. Yeah, meditation. Yogis make this pajama loka. Some yogis make this pajama loka, but also non-yogis make this pajama loka. Pajama lokas are pajama lokas for the beings that are in that pajama loka. But actually, even in some sense, even beings that aren't in the Pajama Loka in some sense contribute to the Pajama Loka indirectly. So you'd be careful of that. Because when the yogi is entering into the Pajama Loka, the Rupa Dhatu, they're sitting on the dirt of the Gama Dhatu, which is made by the non-yogis too. Anyway, there's another pajama, there's another kind of pajama loka up here.

[02:08]

And this pajama loka is, what's in this pajama loka? What's the difference between this pajama loka and that pajama loka? It's all good? What's this, is this pajama loka not all good? It's neutral. So what's this pajama look? It's neutral. So what's the difference between it? It's not karmically different. It's a result of different kind of karma. It's not just because it's rupa that it's neutral, but because it's retribution that it's neutral. So what's the difference? Yes? They're the objects of consciousness, but not the objects of the organ?

[03:16]

What are the sense organs? I was guessing that the five sense organs are not in Rupadhatu. I mean, they're the identification of Jammurka with the objects of the field. Well, the Abhidharmakosha will explain that there's some debate about this. But to start out simply and get more complex, the Rupadhatu has different kinds of playgrounds for the senses than the Kamadhatu. In the rubidati, you have what kind of stuff? And in the kamadati, you have what kind of stuff? Like gross matter and fine matter. What's gross matter like? Right.

[04:29]

pink rather than ear lobes. Well, you see, the Pajama Loka in the Kamandatu is the Pajama Loka that the beings who want to be there have at their disposal and they want it to be so they can bite it and turn it with their hands so it actually is just dharmas it's actually composed of dharmas just like in the rupadatta it's just these dharmas so one way to talk about what is that In the Kama Dattu, what you're seeing, the objects of your awareness are objects that are not dharmas.

[05:38]

They're things that if you would analyze them, you couldn't see them anymore. Whereas the things in the Rupa Dattu, if you analyze them, you can still be aware of them. So like a salt shaker, If you break it apart, you can't see the salt shaker anymore. But white, if you break white apart, you can still see white. So dharmas, if you analyze dharmas, you can still stay aware of them. In the rupadhatu, you can analyze colors and you can still be aware of the colors. But in the kamadhatu, the kind of things you're analyzing are things which can be the object of sexual appetites. So if you analyze them, the consciousness which wants to be aware of things in that way will deteriorate, because it won't be able to act that way anymore. But for consciousness that wants to act that way, then that's the way it relates to these objects, and it pulls them together into these forms.

[06:44]

So instead of having just nutrition, you have nutrition that comes on spoons, and matter of fact, silver spoons, and has a certain lump in it, and certain taste. composite taste maybe even. Now there's some debate in chapter one about there's some, you know, smell and taste. There's some debate about whether just the smell's gone or whether the smell's there and maybe the organ's gone or whether the smell's there but the organ's gone. So there's some debate about it. You can read about it. But basically, a different space. But it has the same structure. as the kamadhatu. It has a gutty area, and the gutty area is the retribution area, which is these blissful abodes, blissful births. What?

[07:45]

In the rupadhatu. In the rupadhatu. Kamadhatu also has blissful births. There's heavens in the kamadhatu also. But these heavens still have gross forms in them. So they're heavens where, as I talked about, actually I talked about some people whose composite things in their world, you know, are very beautiful. So you go to some people's house or some people's farm or whatever, and you just... They live in heaven. But it's heaven composed of trees and grasses and tide pools and tea gardens and things like that. But all the gutties in the Rupadatta are blissful.

[08:47]

All the gutties in the Rupadatta are blissful. And they're ranked according to quality of blissfulness. There's some that are higher than others. People meditate. As a collective creation, I mean, how does room change? Objectively, the room doesn't change, but the perception changes rather than if I should create it. in one sense you can say that the people in the rupadatta are living more in reality than the people in the kamadatta. So by entering into this kind of yoga, they see things more, in a sense, more accurately than the people in the kamadatta.

[09:57]

But right now in this room, some people could be in the rupadattu and see nothing but colors and hear nothing but these basic sounds. And if they were in that state, they would, if they were in the first rupadattu, if they were in the first gati, they couldn't hear my, they couldn't understand my words. I mean, they could still understand my words because they still have vitarka and vichara. They're in higher states. They couldn't even understand the words. The words would just come in as . They'd hear like that. And it would sound like music to them. They'd hear all kinds of wonderful cadences and ups and downs. They'd hear heavenly music. Trucks going by would be heavenly music. But other beings in the same room that are into trucks, They grew up, people gave them trucks for Christmas.

[11:01]

This is a truck. Oh, goody, a truck. This is a car. You can hear it drive your car. Goody, wheels, radios, windshield wipers. They grew up doing that, so when a truck goes by, they may say, yeah, it's kind of an ugly-sounding truck, or they may hear, gee, that Mercedes-Benz really sounds good. But, you know, it depends on the circumstances. Whether or not you hear a nice-sounding truck or not, or a nice sounding Mercedes or not, that's your retribution. But that's everybody's retribution. That is everybody's retribution. Whether it's pleasant to you or not is your own retribution. Do you hear this? Some people in this room probably thought that was pleasant. Some people in this room probably thought it wasn't. Some people didn't know whether it was or wasn't. You just keep, that's, this is called Vedana Smutipupastana.

[12:01]

Mindfulness of feeling. Was that pleasant or not pleasant? Pleasant or not pleasant? Count it. Keep that up. And, uh, Have a little thing in your hand that has three buttons. Let's go. Positive, negative, neutral. Positive, negative, neutral. And if you're done, see how many of each you had. So whether it's positive, negative, neutral, that's your own. That's on you, as they say, San Quentin. But this thing, this dropping here, everybody's into this. All of you are. Now, some of you might be in the Rupadattu.

[13:06]

And you don't even see this pen. That's a pen. You see blue and silver and things like that. So, in the same room, some people would conjure, put things together into grosser forms than others. But even some people could have somebody also in the Arupadattu sitting in that room. And they... disgusted themselves with form entirely. Actually, they haven't discussed... You don't get into the Arupadatu by disgusting yourself with form. You get into the Arupadatu by disgusting yourself with putting things together in gross forms. So you compulsively put down the gross forms of the Rukamadatu and think of the positive qualities of these more fundamental and refined material areas and that... That wish, that compulsion, projects you into this other realm. But from there, once you can do that, to go into the non-material realm, you don't have to put down the fine material realm, which is blissful.

[14:16]

But what you do is you think of the concepts. You're just really getting to concepts that have nothing to do with form. Formless concepts. And concepts that have inherent in them the lack of form, like the infinity of space. The infinity of consciousness. You get into this kind of conception and that projects you into a realm where that's what's happening. And there's no form. You could have three people in the same meditation hall in those three realms. There's no conflict. If one of them But the one in the Kama Dattu starts withering around and starts screaming and running up and down the meditation hall saying, now I want to, you guys, how did you get in those places? I want to be there too. The one in the Rupa Dattu would just see this blue and brown green thing jumping around. And the one in the Rupa Dattu wouldn't hear them or see them.

[15:21]

Or smell them or taste them or touch them. Because the one in the Rupa Dattu is just not into that. Doesn't want to do that. However, they did decide to be a human being. And when they decided to be a human being, they said that they did want to be into form. So this is just a temporary side trip, this formless realm. And they'll come back to the human realm, and they'll get back into their birth again. But they can be temporary in these states. Is that clear? Yes. Where do we draw it? Where do we separate kind of ? Is it also possible to to move between them very most terrible?

[16:34]

You can jump. When you jump, you jump cleanly from one to the other, but you can, under certain circumstances, move rather. You can have great flexibility, so you can jump around rather quickly. For example, the easiest place to talk about it is at the edge of it, of course. So when you're on the edge of the kind of experience, which we call rupadhatu experience, if you're in the kamadhatu, you know, it depends on what part of the kamadhatu you're in. If you're in the gati part of the kamadhatu, you're not going to... I'm not going to say what you can't do, but rather say that if you're in the, let's say you're in the karma, the karma bhava.

[18:04]

I wrote karma bhava, that's a mistake. It should be karma bhava. If you're in the karma bhava section of the karma doctor, you're meditating, doing a concentrated meditation, like, for example, following your breath, or meditating on a blue disk. As your concentration becomes stronger and stronger, more and more stabilized, at a certain point, you reach a state which is called the potential. The potential. Anagamya. And in that state, you have the potential to enter into a full trance of the rupadhatu. At that point, it would be possible to enter the full trance of the rupadhatu and come right back into a kamadhatu experience.

[19:17]

By entering the full trance, you will get a retribution, a blissful retribution in the rupadhatu. That doesn't necessarily come right away. So in that sense, you can jump back and forth across that line a little bit. But it's a clear jump. Attaining the state and having the potential to stay in the state are really different, different quality. And it's important for meditators to be able to do either and to be able to discriminate between them. It's quite a clear thing. So I would say that the differences are very clear, but there's considerable flexibility. And the more you're experienced, the more flexibility you have and the more you can jump around.

[20:23]

Same within the kamadatu. You can jump from human realm to god realm and back. But the difference is quite clear. Human realm has a particular type of five skandas. God realm has a different quality of five skandas. For example, in the god realms, the god destinies of the human, of the kamadatu, they are pleasant. they're due to good karma and they're pleasant. Whereas human, uh, the human destiny in the Kamadatu is, um, has positive, negative, and neutral. But you can be inhuman, go up to God and come back rather rapidly sometimes.

[21:29]

And, uh, So what's the difference between a positive experience in the human realm and the what we call divine bliss in the Kama Doctor? So what's the difference there? Is it just higher quality? Yes, it's just higher quality. It's just more blissful. But this bliss has certain characteristics, and when it has those characteristics, you're in heaven in the Kama Doctor. When it doesn't have those characteristics, you're in human realm or assurer realm in the common doctrine. Now, humans also have unpleasant experiences within the human realm. So what's the difference between unpleasant in the human realm and unpleasant in hell? It's a matter of degree and quality. Hell has worse unpleasant than human realm has unpleasant.

[22:29]

Human realm has all three possibles, but they're milder than either heaven on one side or hell on the other. Or Asura on one side and animal on the other. So it's a qualitative difference, but Abhidharma is very good at qualitative distinctions. But the ability to go back and forth is... I mean, the mind has the ability to go back and forth among these realms as fast as you can think of the possibility. Which is, you know, there's no limit on how fast you can do it. The Abhidharma is a little bit slower moving than some Mahayana conceptions. But as you'll see as we get to start... when we start discussing Guttis is that there's, once again, it has to do with how you regard objects as to what you think is possible.

[23:34]

So, in one sense, all Guttis exist in one moment. In another sense, you have to go through certain rules to go from one to the other. Yes? You have to use effort to get into the Rupadatu. You have to start taking things apart while you're in the Kamadatu. You have to start thinking. There's not complications. So why don't you have a lot of experience in the Rupadatu? Can we stop there for a second? Yes. He's saying that it seems like to get into the Rupadatu, you have to stop thinking of things, start taking things apart in the Kamadatu. It's not so much that you have to analyze things in this yogic practice, but rather what you do is you just take something which is already analyzed. You don't have to analyze it. You have to be willing to look at something which is the result of analysis.

[24:41]

For example, a blue disc. You don't have to analyze the world down and say, well, purple's actually made of several colors or Pam's made of several colors. That's too hard, actually, for most people. But you can just take blue and put it there and if you're willing to look at that blue and not look at any other colors and not even see that maybe the blue has various shades in it but just say blue, blue, blue and look at blue and keep looking at blue and don't look at anything else then you're saying I'm willing to have for my objects I'm willing to have the playground in my eyes be the result of analysis I'm willing to look at these uncompounded material fields. Matter of fact, I want to. That's desire to see that kind of things. That's what projects you into this other realm. So you don't do the analysis exactly. Because you still think that there are composite things.

[25:45]

But you're saying, I'm not going to look at those composite things. I'm not going to look at those people walking by. I'm just going to look at this blue disk. Because those people really cause me a lot of trouble. I don't like them. This is not a Buddhist view. This is a view by which you can get yourself into the yogic trance. It's a kind of narrow-minded way to see, to look at people that like walking by as bad or dangerous. But for a lot of people, they won't be able to look at this blue disc unless they can put down the things that are walking around or the food that's being rolled by. I have to say, it's bad stuff, bad stuff. This is good. I want to do this. This is going to put me someplace where I'm going to be free of that. Besides that, they won't give me any of the food anyway. So I better not pay attention to it because I get frustrated. And it won't taste as good as it smells. So I'm not going to get distracted.

[26:48]

I'm just going to look at this. And sure enough, if you can do that, if you can look at this blue disc very thoroughly... you will project yourself into a space where you'll be free of the smell of hot dogs and other things like that. You'll still have desires, but your desires will be on a different plane. So there's no analysis is necessary. But in order to do Abhidharmic analysis, you must be, to do it thoroughly, you must be able to attain that level of concentration. So we say that you should be able to attain that potential state if you want to really do analytical work. But you don't have to use a blue disk to attain the potential state. You can do it on your breathing or various other ways. That's the other half of the question. If you are in this potential state and zero in on something, it seems like the common doctor who responded to the thing is they fall apart on you.

[27:55]

You have to work to keep it in there. Well, if it fell apart on you, that would be all right. Somebody would have to take care of you. No. Somebody has to take care of you ordinarily. And if the commandant fell apart, you'd be better able to take care of yourself than you usually are. Because you wouldn't get pushed around by the way you pull things together for the sake of playing around. You have to be free of a lot of problems. You think that somebody will have to take care of you. That's what people often think. They say, well, if the world stopped being the way it is, how will I know what to do? How will I walk down the stairs if I can't see the stairs anymore? Well, actually, you don't walk down the stairs as it is. So now if you actually saw how you do that thing, which you call walking down the stairs, you'd be better if you'd actually be doing what's happening more.

[28:56]

But, you know, for example, somebody... How can I walk down the stairs when I realize that walking down the stairs is inseparable from going up the stairs? How could I do that? Because I was walking down the stairs, just walking down the stairs, that's all I'm into. So now if I started to realize it's inseparable from coming up the stairs, how could I go down the stairs? But that's how you've always been going down the stairs, and you'll be okay. As a matter of fact, you'll be much better off, and so will everybody else. But if you think beforehand from the world that doesn't think that way, then you think, my God, that would really be... Now, of course, if you want to prove that you can't walk down the stairs, you know, if you change your attitudes, you could prove it. You could say, okay, I've changed my attitudes and then fall down the stairs and say, see, it didn't work. But that's not changing your attitudes. That's proving that you can be wrong or proving that Buddhism is wrong or proving that I'm wrong or I don't know what. But that's not what we call changing attitude because that just, you know, what it's called is changing your attitudes into a perversion of what you already know and causing yourself trouble.

[30:11]

But you already know how to do that. This is just a new variety of it. It's like getting drunk. So this kind of concentration is not the same as getting drunk. It doesn't change the stress there the same way that getting drunk does. it gets you down to actually just your natural state of mind, which is concentrated, and you start seeing things that way, and you can go downstairs quite nicely. You might go faster or slower than usual, I don't know. It's hard to say, but anyway. And you might fall downstairs too, I don't know. It doesn't mean you'll never fall downstairs, but people fall downstairs under various other states of mind too. Falling down stairs is something that you do, the thing you do. And even a yogi may want to fall down stairs.

[31:14]

Just a few weeks ago, Trungpa Rinpoche wanted to fall down some stairs. And he got a concussion. Was he? I don't know. But if he was drunk, he wanted to be drunk. But also, then if you get drunk, it's for the same reasons. So do you understand this? This is what we're talking about now, these three worlds. So there's the guttis, there's the active, productive karmic states that produce the guttis, And there's the pajama loka. But the way I drew it is, you know, that it doesn't really happen in such a segmented fashion. It's all sort of intermingled. Yes. Oh, just to show you that this is different from that and different from that.

[32:36]

I could have shaded this in, too. The shaded-in area is the active comment situation. It really is more like a fabric, you know. It's all tied together. But this fabric, although it's a fabric and it's very complicated, or complicatedly or beautifully woven in among itself, the pajama loka, the gutties, and the active karmic states. They're not interwoven. They're woven just like a fabric, you know. I mean, you can look at the fabric and you see there's that thread, there's that thread, there's that thread, and there's that thread, and there's that thread.

[33:41]

They're specifically and clearly interwoven, and you can discriminate one from the other. There's definite patterns. And that's what we're studying here, is what these patterns are and how they work. And they're all faiskandas. Faiskandas, faiskandas, faiskandas. They're all just these experiences and these adharmis that we're talking about. And now we're talking about how they interact with each other and make these patterns among each other. Okay? So please, please continue reading chapter 3. Oh, next week I won't be here. So if you want to, we could have a longer meeting If the majority of you want to, because I don't want a big chunk of the class to get behind the rest of the class, but if most of you want to have a longer class two weeks from now, we can do that.

[34:43]

But otherwise, we'll just miss next week and start the week after again. I can't think of any time that probably most of you can come in the nights because you all have classes and stuff. A lot of people would miss if we did it at night. Anyway, next Monday morning I won't be here. I'll be in Boulder.

[35:07]

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