papers over there that the people who are joining this class didn't have a chance to read. A lot of them didn't read those 18 characters, right? Well, there they are. There's the beginning of chapter 3 over there. It's a It's about not very many pages, but the whole world's in it, so you could spend quite a while on it. Any questions on what we talked about last time? My body is external to me.

[01:27]

My body, this hand here, is external to me. This hand is what we call an external ayatana. Okay? What are the external ayatanas? Do you know what the external ayatanas are? No? Yes? Any other ideas? Yes? The organs are not external.

[02:31]

The organs are... This internal-external business is according to Abhidharma culture, right? There's a kāraka in chapter 1 that says... It says... I think it says five are external. Which five are external? Klaus? Sense fields I? I? I? What do you mean by I? The objects, right? Not I, but light. Light? Color, smell, tastes, tangibles, and... Did I say sounds? Sounds. Anyway, those five, those are the external ayatans. All right? You see this? That's a light color.

[03:32]

Actually, if you see it in Akamadatu, it's a bunch of colors that create a shape. There's many, many colors here. Abidomically speaking, it takes several billion, or anyway, more than ten moments to take in this hand. The hand is not really an organ. The sense of touch is not the hand. The sense of touch happens to be located around this particular visible, though. This visible thing is external, too, but it doesn't have the scent. You can push it over there, and nobody's sense organs are located right around it, turns out. It's still nobody's eye organ. Nobody's eye organ is located around there, as far as I know. So all of our, my eye organ, for example,

[04:39]

is located somewhere around in this. If I draw a bit like this, my eye organ is in there someplace. It's located. Okay? And you can see my eyeball, but my eyeball, I can't see my eyeball, so it's not internal or external right now. To me. I can't, I just can't see it. So to me, my eyeball is just an idea. I can blink my eyes. I feel my eyelashes moving, but the eyeball itself is just an idea to me. I assume that if I reached up here, I'd feel it. Sometimes people reach up and they don't find the eyeball. Oh, there it is. Yeah, it's a bulge there. I guess it's still there. And in fact, if you damage this, if I look at one of your eyes, to me it's a light color, a bunch of colors. And I... I know your eye capacity, your capacity to relate to light is located around that part of your head.

[05:42]

So I know that if something damages your eye, the eyeball, I know that your capacity to see will be impaired. But this is as much, this is no more or less internal or this is external or no less external or no less internal. than my hand. However, my hand happens to be the location of part of my sense equipment. But when I look at my hand, I'm not seeing my sense equipment. I'm seeing an external object. Just if I cut my hand off and threw it on the street, then it no longer would be the location of my sense. field, it would not be totally external. But just the fact that it's connected to my wrist or not doesn't make it more internal or external as a sense object.

[06:45]

It's external. So this whole body is external. Open. External. It's external to the sense organs that contain it. I mean that are contained in it. They consider it external. All the various ideas we have learned From the time you're a child, you learn to say, this external object is different from this external object. You learn that. But there's a point at which you don't feel that way. Where if you're going to stick a pin, you stick a pin there, [...] there. But when you stick a pin here, something different happens when you stick a pin there. But it's all external to the sense organ of sight, or whatever sense organ. It's also external to the sense of touch. as an object is external to the sense of touch. It just so happens that if you stick a needle in this particular sense object, you happen to run into, by coincidence, your sense organ, your own personal one.

[07:48]

It's your body. However, if you do it to somebody else, you don't feel it. As far as I am concerned, your body and my body are both external. That's right, they're inseparable. Because awareness of the external never occurs without the organ and the object. You can't separate them, and yet you can discriminate If you don't say, but it's the same with, she said they're inseparable, okay, but also my awareness of you is also inseparable from consciousness and inseparable from the capacity to relate to you as a visual event.

[08:53]

So if you realize that really they're inseparable, then you start heading towards chitta matra or mind-only Buddhism. Because you realize it doesn't make any sense to talk about an organ separate from an object separate from a consciousness. They always come up together. It's not the organ that the eye doesn't see, the mind-high consciousness doesn't see, and the object doesn't see. You always have all three are what see. You need all three. You never have a sight event. It's not one of those three. A sight event is not the object either. A sight event is what we call a complex interrelated function. So if you realize that, it's true. My hand is not really external because I can't separate my hand from my consciousness of it and my capacity to see it. But once you realize that, then other people are the same. So if you say other people are external, then you're external to yourself. If you say other people aren't external because you can't separate them from your consciousness of them and your capacity to relate to them, then you're not external to yourself either.

[09:59]

So if you eliminate all other external phenomena, then you will be eliminated as external too. But if you think there's something external, you're as external as that. Your body is as external as that. Also my voice. The sounds I'm making, these are as external to me, to my sense fields, my sense capacities, as your voice is. I guess we can see that our voice gets to be external because we think, oh, This energy comes out and starts vibrating in the air and it's out there. But to the sense organ, this is as much out there as that stuff out there. This doesn't mean anything. It's not critical in terms of internal and external. Two feet away, if it's external, it's ten feet away. So, take your choice. If you say nothing's external, then the body's not external. Then the body is the mind. But this school of Buddhism said there are external objects and they really exist.

[11:05]

However, the sense fields are the ones that are external. The sense organs are internal and mind is internal. Now the one debatable point is what about the dharma ayatana or the dharmadhatu? Is that internal or external? Yeah, you could see it either way. Because some of the stuff, most of what's in the Dharma Dattu is mental events. But they're related to objects. So, either way, it may be more convenient to have six of one and six of the other, rather than seven of one and six of five of the other. Yes. They don't mention them.

[12:39]

Chapter 3 never uses that vocabulary. Very seldom uses that vocabulary. It doesn't use the Dharma vocabulary. Okay. So, chapter 3, a person who hasn't studied Abhidharma could start with chapter 3. Some people actually like to start studying Abhidharma prosha at chapter 3 because you don't have to start learning dharma stuff right away. And you can learn a little bit of a little bit of stuff, but it's not really Abhidharma. It's actually, when you read it at that level, it's more like mythology.

[13:42]

This thing about monsoon arrow and hells and heavens and animal realms and hungry goats realms. But you can still read and understand and say, well, this is what these Buddhists are saying. And I guess they say that this is not just Buddhists, this is what the Indian before the Buddhists thought too. So it's interesting. At that level, it's... It's like mythology or maybe mythology which you feel obliged to believe because you're a Buddhist and you're reading a Buddhist text. But anyway, it's not, you can understand it in a sense. But I would say it's something like, maybe it's like reading French or English, maybe French, maybe Italian better. It's like reading Italian without knowing Latin. You can learn Italian. If you already understand Italian, you can read it. However, if you've studied Latin before you read Italian, I guess I could extend it to any of the Romance language or even English, then you see, although speaking English, you see the roots and the components of many of the words.

[14:54]

And you see that a word not only means what ordinarily think it means, but you also know why it means that. So, same with chapter 3. You can read it on one level and understand it, but if you've studied dharmas before, you know what dharmas compose these states which they're describing in common language. So, that's why if you study chapter 1 and 2 before you study chapter 3, then it becomes a way to talk about the dharmic world which you've just learned about. at the next level of discussion. Not quite totally common, but anyway, non-technical and non-Abhidharma-technical terms to describe the same phenomenon. What other points did you write? I think there was another point.

[15:56]

Well, Colin, can anybody want to say what the difference between talking about hell and talking about being tortured in these various ways or heaven in various states of bliss that they describe there and the dharmic We have talking about the states. Yes. difference in what?

[17:21]

You mean that you grasp the difference? What do you say? The way you grasp it? I can see that that's right, yes. hardly true, but some part of Dharma theory, this Arby Dharma anyway, says that some things are not part of your mind, but external objects are not, but still I think you're saying that you feel more directed back to meditation than the Dharma description. Any other ideas of difference? It's in a physical way.

[18:43]

It's not physical, you know. The Gattis are called places, but they're not physical. They're states of being. The Gattis are states of being. They're describing, you know, really they're describing totally mental places. That's the point, yes? They're being in one hand. Okay. To the others... But before we bring out any more, this is pretty interesting to me.

[19:47]

I don't know if you're following it, but Gip just said that the earlier chapters deal with process and relationships, but they also deal with static states. So part of dharmic description is of a moment. We start with a moment, and we describe what mental things can happen momentarily or in a given moment. Then we describe process or how, what sequences of moments can happen. Chapter three describes moments, states of being, but it also describes prophecies. It describes how one state of being goes to another state of being. The image that occurred to me when you were talking about the way you grasp it is like grasping an arm or grasping individual muscle tissues and bones and nerves.

[20:47]

Grasping an arm is a reality. But if you take the skin off or you can see what's under the skin, if you look at an arm, you can actually see the tissue underneath. If you can't do that, don't believe that, just take the skin off. And then you can see the various tissues. You can get into the tissues. And dharmically speaking, you get into the tissues, individual tissues and the cell in the tissues and so on. But you may not be able to, you may not know that in fact these tissues are in a big bundle and how they work together as a bundle. Chapter 3 takes a step back and looks at the whole arm and doesn't talk about the tissue under the skin. Just talks about the whole arm. And it's closer than to ordinary way of speech. So it's not that one's better than the other, but what's best is to know that each contain each other and each determine each other.

[21:56]

So when you hear about the arm, you immediately know. That's a certain kind of tissue lined up in a certain way with bones set in a certain place. And inside the cells is this kind of stuff. Mitochondria and cytoplasm and all this stuff. Well, you know about all of them. You know everything, even though you're talking about an arm. You don't forget what's inside. And when you're inside, you don't forget they're just contained in an arm. But you don't find these kind of muscle cells walking around the street by themselves. They're always packaged with a bunch of other muscle cells of that type. And nearby, there's a different side of muscle cells. And they're collected into different packages. And they work different ways. And the whole system, you know about, too. So chapter one and chapter two, the first thing you study about is the... is the smallest particles of discussion, the dharma. Then you study dharmas in packages, like skandal and ioptonit. And then you study, and after you do that, most of chapter one and chapter two, at the end of chapter two, you study how this arm goes to this arm.

[23:08]

In other words, possible sequences of moments, of dharmic type of moments. And when they tell you that this type, and then they start making general terms for states of consciousness, in terms of dharmic quality, and in terms of what realm they exist in. Now, there is a start, that's where you start to overlap with chapter three, because they tell you that in kamadatu, a certain type of, certain karmic state of consciousness goes to another state of type of consciousness. So then it's good to know what they mean in general by the kamadatu. So in chapter 1 and chapter 2, you're told what the elements are and how this kind of collection of elements would go to this kind of collection of elements. In chapter 3, they talk about the general type, and then they talk about how one general type, depending on if they talk bigger, they talk actually about big blocks of general types. how big blocks of general type go to other big blocks of general type.

[24:12]

Now, Van said, is chapter 3 the only place in the Abhidharma Kosha where there's non-dharmic language? Can anybody think of another place in chapter 3 where there's non-dharmic language, a lot of it? Chapter 4, karma, is also that way a lot. Not too much discussion of dharma. That's because the minute level of discussion of causation occurs in Chapter 2, the Hetan Pratyaya. And then when they talk about karma in Chapter 4, it's actually the more gross or common speech talking about that same minute process of dharmic interaction, dharmic causation. So if you know only dharmas, that's good enough. That will be very good.

[25:16]

But unless you know the kind of discussion that's going on in Chapter 3 and Chapter 4, it'll be hard for you to tell people in daily life what you're talking about. Because most people don't speak dharmic language. So if you want to... If somebody's talking about... But actually, you don't really need to read Chapter 3 to do this because if somebody's talking to you and they describe some state, which is like on this level of discussion, like they tell you about their arm, you don't know what they're talking about. You no longer speak English or speak in gross terms. So you have to investigate and talk to them in detail to understand what they're talking about because you only understand Dharmic language. So they say, I'm depressed. And you look on your Dharma list. Depressed? What's that? They say, I'm bored. Bored? What's that? They say, I'm afraid. I didn't find fear. I didn't find depression. I didn't find boredom. What do you mean? And they start telling you, and you say, oh, you mean you're angry.

[26:19]

Oh, I see. And then, but still, anger doesn't tell you enough. So then you find out that actually they feel distracted, and also they're in pain. And you also find out that they have no faith, and you also find out that they have no self-respect. and so on, pretty soon. And then you also find out, by listening to the way they talk, that their mind works pretty much like everybody else's name. So they have mindfulness, and they have Chaitanya, and they have Vedana, and so on and so forth. Yeah, they have, and you know that already, actually, though. You know all states of consciousness have ten. Then you find out the other little details, and then you understand what they mean by boredom, and depression, and confusion, and excitement, and so on and so forth. A lot of people say they're excited. When they're calm. They don't know Abhidharma, but they're very excited because they're very blissful because they're calm. They sit there and say, I'm ecstatic. Some other people are jumping all over the, are zipping across, you know, zinging around the room saying they're depressed.

[27:29]

Or bored. I'm bored! You're bored. What does that mean? and you find out that they're, you know, ready to kill anybody for not letting them do something that they want to do. But they're tremendously bored. Or somebody gets up and talks very chauvinistically about somebody, and they get very bored. Just before they go into a rage, they get very bored. They're not really bored at all. They just don't dare just come out and say that they're angry, so they say, very boring. So, uh... It's that you can then learn, as chapter 3 teaches, how to talk in ordinary words and yet be talking about, you know exactly what you're talking about. So you can say human state and you know dharmically what that means. You can say divine state and you know dharmically divine state, you know, never has pain. Just know that.

[28:30]

So if there's pain, you know you don't mean divine state. So although you can't... It's a general term. You actually know exactly what elements will be there. You know concentration is very strong. And also, if you hear about the details of this pleasant existence, you can tell what level of the, of the, what stage of trance they're into. And you can, and people may say, they may say blah-de-blah, you know, which will sound like the word by which you would define them as in that such-and-such trance. But, um, Actually, that's just talk. And when you talk to them more, you find out that they just happen to pick the same word, or the same word that might translate the same Sanskrit term. But really, that's not what they mean. And you find out more about it, and it's not that word. I mean, it's not that state. So they're really not talking about that at all. Someone came and talked to me recently, and they told me that their friend told me that they were doing trance meditation in his eyes then. Because what they said made their friends think that they were doing trance meditation.

[29:33]

And she told me, and I... I followed up in detail what she meant. Was it trans? Not at all. And because it didn't, it didn't have, first of all, you don't accidentally get in these states. You have to work hard to gain a very high level of concentration and so on. And, but second of all, basically, she still had plenty of pain and everything in this state. but not in the trance state. And various other things that you can still see, you know, things in a certain way that you wouldn't see in the trance state. So, chapter three is dealing on, talking about states of being, which are the Gattis, and it also talks about the ways of becoming that project these states of being,

[30:34]

ways of becoming. Now I'm starting to use the word becoming for being. For what? What's the technical term for becoming? What? In terms of being, what's the technical term for becoming? What? You know? You know? This is the word I suggest, the Abhidharma word for what we usually call becoming. Bova. Bova means being. Or existence. Karmic means karmic. Active karmic being. Or I would say becoming. And the gutti, or just the state of being, where you're not really doing anything directly, you can call it gutti.

[31:45]

Gutti. So we're studying these gutti, these destinies in Chapter 3. And there's one other kind of situation. And these two together are called what? We call those two together, those kinds of beings. Well, yeah, you can call it Purva Kala Baba, but also, Purva Kala Baba is in you. Purva Kala Baba is included in there. But what else is in there? Is Marana Baba in there? Is Jati Baba in there? Do new people know what Jati Baba is? Do you know what Jati Baba is? Do you know what Jati Baba is? Okay, included in here, what's the name of the whole thing before we put more stuff in? What? Thoughtbook, yeah.

[32:48]

This is thoughtbook, yeah. This is the state of, this stuff is the state of being, yeah? Is it intermediate? Yes. So, under gutter you have five or six destinies, okay? One, two, three, four, five, six. Six kinds of gutty. Okay. Under angbava, you'd have porvapalabava. You have and you have .

[33:52]

And you have . Okay. This one's a little bit difficult. But these three are incarnabha, I would say. Jati bhava is birth existence. Kind of existence when you take birth. Taking birth in a gut. And that could be an incarnation birth or a birth birth. a rebirth within an incarnation. So, Gatibhava happened innumerable times within one incarnation. Yes?

[34:53]

Yes. Gatibhava is another name. Gatibhava. We don't usually say jati citta, though. It's not vocabulary, but you could say jati citta. This pupapati bhava is a state of consciousness, and it's also a way of being. And we also say maranapava, but you can also say maranapava. Maranapava is death consciousness, or death being. Death is a state of being. It's a way of being. It's the way things are sometimes. It's not the way things aren't.

[35:54]

Death is an activity. Purva Kalapava is the type of being or the type of consciousness which you get into after you're born. It literally means afterwards. Purva. Well, that's a problem, but... So I'll include... But I'll also include some junky above and poor-to-color above. So this is not entirely included in karma, Baba. That's because after you're born, for example, after you're born into human birth, into a human body, you may then spend some of your time in the destiny of human, spend some of your time into active karma.

[37:17]

Part of your time you're just, you're just being human. That's a destiny. Part of the time you're not only being human, you're a human being doing stuff. You're becoming. So, technically, to be more exact, Parma Bhava means active, it's positive, negative, and neutral. Chronically speaking. Gutti Baba is always neutral. And now he's in neutral, but it's undefiled neutral. Becoming, state of becoming can also be neutral, but it can also be positive, good kind or bad kind. So Purva Kala Baba means that which happens between a birth and between a death. So it means sort of the mass of a destiny.

[38:25]

So it could be the mass of this destiny of incarnation of a human being named Rabbi Anderson. But within that, some of my time is spent actively creating karma, and some of my time is spent just experiencing the results of karma, just experiencing the results karma in the language of chapter three is a gut is a destiny to where you go to wind up being as a result of things you've done as a result of things you thought so part of my time is active thinking and that active thinking can be going in a good direction or a bad direction or sort of can't tell direction and part of my time is spent just experiencing the results of my thinking. That's the gut. And that whole thing is Purva Kala Bhava, between birth and death.

[39:38]

And within that huge 70 or 100 years of Purva Kala Bhava, which is a mixture of active primal and pathic being. Also, I can go through various realms, where I take smaller birth, and smaller birth, and smaller death, and so on. So I can go in, so I can die, I can be born in the human realm, die in the human realm, but still keep his body. Go into under or above, go into the intermediate realm. Then go to... I'll take birth consciousness again. Go into a portal called a bubba, an animal. Die of that. Give up on that kind of being. Be fed up with that kind of being. Desire not to be there anymore. That kind of trip called death consciousness. Go back into a bubba. Go back into a jockey bubba.

[40:40]

Come back to human realm again. Get bored with that. Try to have a little fun. Die of the die there. Go into an intermediate realm. try to choose the place I wanted to go to, be born there, go here. Now, this, in the, in the purva-kala-bhava of a, of a god or a hell being or an animal that I decide to be born into, I, the time when I start getting bored with being an animal and want to do something else, that's not the, that's not the jati-bhava, that's the kama-bhava. But when you get bored with being a human being and you want to be an animal, that means that you want to have, for example, some really fancy sex that will get you there. And if you do that, have that kind of desire that will, in the human realm, that will project you out of the human realm.

[41:43]

In other words, you desire to not be in the human realm. You have enough of this mild frustration It's getting boring. I want them to sing a little bit jazzier. So you say, I want to get out of this human realm, go someplace where I can really have some fancy stuff happening. That gets you out. Then you say, you have to not want to be here, and then you not want to be here, and then you kill yourself in the human realm. You'll stay in the body, though. You go into the intermediate realm, and you see these fancy things going on. You know, like, or something. And you say, that looks far off. And then you get to see an animal. And so there you are, an animal. But that gets boring, too, because you find out that you're definitely afraid of mosquitoes or something, or definitely afraid of drunk hunters. And you say, well, I've had enough of this. And I'd rather even go back to that shame or boring state I was going to be poor.

[42:48]

which is a pretty sensible thing to do, by the way. Pretty good state of consciousness. It's common, but it's pretty good. You die of the animal consciousness. You go into the intermediate realm. In the intermediate realm, people look good to you again. And you get born back into the human realm where you physically were all the time. And you had the physical body of a human being. Or rather, in terms of what we were just talking about, There's this external object that if you look around here, you'll see it's a human body. That was always there, even though it became an animal until you had these human hands. It didn't look like a thing. I don't know exactly where to put that. Yeah. But anyway, all these are in sattva kya.

[43:52]

And there's one more. What's the rest of the story? That's not all that makes the universe up. What's the rest? What? Ajana Loka, which is, you can say, asatva kya. Ajana Loka is asatva kya. Pajama means what? What? What? What do you say? It means receptacle. It's a physical world, a receptacle world. We see it physically and it includes. Although it's a receptacle world and it includes us, we all make it together at the same time, not a being. When you're talking about a gutter, you're not talking about a pajama walker.

[44:54]

You're talking about what? When you're talking about a state of being, what they got to do with a pajama walker. It's the way you experience the pajama walker. Right? Yeah. Right. Right. So some people just care carefully of it. I love people. It's police. It's police. So we are the state of being, and particularly the state of being in this state,

[46:20]

Karmabhava. Karmabhava says we are, as I mentioned, as I quoted some psychoanalysts saying, we are powerful, isolated fantasy system. We have powerful ability. That's our karmic consciousness. We have powerful ability to think up tremendous fantasy. fantasy is about our own experience, and fantasy is about Pajamaloka. But Pajamaloka, we all, we share it. So, I dream up Pam, but I don't dream up Pam all by myself. Pam is dreamt up by all of us, including Pam. Pam has an external to us, is dreamt up by all of us. But still, our contribution to Pam's existence is totally fantasy.

[47:30]

But none of us are totally in control of how this fantasy turns out. Pam's no more in control of it than we are. So we're just fantasizing, and yet we aren't even in control of our fantasy, how they turn out when they're physical. However, we are totally responsible for our internal fantasy. Those we don't share. Our anger, we dream of all by ourselves. But blue, a blue dot or a table, that we make together. However, the way we experience the table that we all make together, that is only our doing. So we make the table together, but the fact that she's happy and he's depressed, that is totally their trip. That's the unitary fantasy potential. I'm describing, I guess that being done in the process, but I wasn't trying to do that.

[48:39]

Asat Prakya is that, is the results. Asat Prakya is totally result. Asat Prakya is a combination of result and cause. Sapakya, according to Abhijan Khosha, is never active coming. Don't I say sapakya? I sapakya. But John Ologan is never an active coming state. That chair is never an active coming state. The chair reflects our awareness. If you see our consciousness in the chair, this is the result of our type of thinking. We see it. Because we think a certain way we have this kind of chip. Because we think a certain way we have this kind of chip. So it reflects our state of mind. We see something about our state of mind. We make tables like that.

[49:40]

There's something about our mind that you can see there. However, the table did not make up. In other words, the table did itself not to wear back. When we look at a table, we're looking at something that we imagine. Together we imagine it. But we did not imagine that it imagined us. That's what we need. A realm that we all create, but that doesn't think our realm. Yes? Jati Baba is the moment of conception. It's just one moment. It just takes a... It's flashing it. You can make it up. Yep. It's result. It's result as gutty. It's result as gutty.

[50:44]

It's result as gutty. It's a destiny. That's what we're studying here. And it's called as karma. And karma. is positive and negative and neutral . So this is rather neutral . It's hard to say whether it's good or bad. Maybe some of you think it's good, maybe some of you think it's good, maybe some of you think it's good, but it's hard to say. A lot of things we do are neutral, but this is not. This isn't common. We're doing something. It's hard to say whether it's good or bad. But gutsy is not. But now I've been doing it the way I experience it, the way I experience it, the way I evaluate it. When I experience it, the way I evaluate it, I call it slip and run out. I'm not particularly implicit about this, or depressed, or afraid, or dissatisfied.

[51:44]

I'm just sort of doing it, just sort of, you know, big deal. the type of thought, but if the type of problem is hearing or sense, you won't see. Therefore, when thought is described as action, then thought is called chayana. When you're talking about thought as action, then that's karma, right? That's a definition of karma. Karma is chayana. But not, and every moment of consciousness has chayana.

[52:45]

But some chayana are primarily characterized by rather than doing something, in terms of doing something different, it's basically a comparison. And you've got these are basically comparison tips. Basically, you're just sort of evaluating the situation. You're not really doing anything about it. Right, you're not creating a new situation. You're just saying, okay, now I've got this here, all right, and then I've got heaven there, and I've got human realm there, I've got animal realm there, and I've got hungry ghost realm there, that means I'm in hell. I've got pleasure there, I've got dissatisfaction there, I've got fear there, I've got mild nausea here, there's only one thing left.

[53:48]

When you haven't got any of those, if you're there at all, you're in tremendous torment. There's nothing left. So you figure out where you are by where you aren't. Yep. The comparison is the result. The act of a comparison is what we call experience. You can't have an experience unless you can't experience anything by itself. You always have to It's all the experience in terms of the difference. It all is compared to something. Otherwise, it's completely empty. And you can work back to the emptiness of the experience by realizing that it is empty, except for what are you related to. So, a state of being, just being, or the gutties are like that, that you arrive at them by comparison. You say, this is this way. You say, and it's really, really, really different from pleasure.

[54:55]

Or this is this big. Now, when you have an experience like that, you may say, Well, I'd like to be over there instead. I'd like to be over there instead. That's part of it. You're no longer in the gutty. You're not trying to get out of the gutty. Now, where you want to go, the way you think about where you want to go, that will send you where you want to go, but it won't send you where you think you want to go necessarily. Like wanting to be famous doesn't send you to fame. Wanting pleasure does not send you to heaven.

[55:59]

It sends you to other pleasure. For sure. If you'd like to be concentrated, you want to concentrate hell. It's really crucial. So if you're in hell and you say, I don't like this, I'd really like to be concentrated. Well, in fact, Dabhya Darmakoshi says you won't think that. You're in such a state of debilitation that you can't even conceive of really doing a concentrated meditation practice. The best you can do is inhale, basically, if you want to help somebody in hell, what they are capable of is a little bit of affection or a little bit of appreciation. So rather than go up and talk to them about, you know, you should... You should get concentrated and start working hard. They don't know what you're talking about. But if you detect that they're in hell, do something nice with them. Pat their back, give them a popsicle. Something that they would like that would make them feel a little bit of peace.

[57:04]

And then they might give rise to a positive thought. And that will help them get out. It won't prolong their state. But talking about good states and encouraging them to give rise to a desire for a good state will keep them there longer. So don't do that. Don't tell them about how nice it is someplace else. Just try to make their situation nicer. And then they might, and take credit for it, let them know who's doing it. Don't send it by, you know, don't have somebody else send a message. Do it yourself or have somebody really do it so that they can have some object for their affection or for their positive, appreciative, grateful thinking. Because people in hell, people that have a hell sort of experiencing, they keep flipping over to, you know, states of active karma that just keep throwing them back in again and again. Like the one, you know, the story about this guy climbing out of hell in a string, you know.

[58:10]

Look, he's just got knocked, and he looks back down to the guy down below him, but coming up the rope behind him, and he sort of had some sense of, you know, not wanting that person to get out, too, and head back down. That story about a bad Buddhist monk. Yes? Right. It's like a chick. It's the physical world. Physical objects... of awareness, the external ayatanas are not active karmic agents. It does, but the way of experiencing, for example, a chair or a blue color is not a blue color.

[59:13]

This table is not very angry. But some people see this table and get angry. I shouldn't say that. Some people experience this table as really obnoxious. To some people, this table is just really obnoxious. Look, he's fainting, my God. [...] Look, he's fainting. Look, he's fainting. Thank you. Is that, is that the car in the front of us?

[60:49]

What? Hold on. The walking around the car in the front of us, but the experience of it as a dump in a lovely piece of furniture. That's Jati Baba. Some people look at us and say, you know, I think it's really nice that, you know, they live so simply. They just, this furniture was here when they moved in, took over from the Jewish girls, and they're still using the same stuff. I mean, they didn't right away go out and buy some beautiful Japanese furniture and make everything really neat. I mean, they're just still doing the same funky stuff. It's really beautiful, you know. These people are really inviting. What a great place, you know. That's called, okay? Or you may say, anyway, we can go on, you know. Think of all the emotional responses you can imagine for this. Then you'll find out what the gut teeth are. Then imagine your responses to the way you experience it. Experience it as wonderful or as terrible or as snotty or repulsive or tormenting even.

[61:56]

Some people would even think, God, this table's going to flip over and crush me. That's what's like in hell. I mean, this table, physical events like that actually crush you. I mean, people are walking around like that. They're sitting on the front steps of their house being crushed by the air. And they just can't take the sound of cars. They're just slaughtered by everything they experience. That's all. But you don't have to get angry at hell. You can say, Oh, there's a reason why I'm in this state. I look very angry all week. Or, of course, if you murder somebody, you go to hell and say, I'm here because I killed somebody, or I killed an ant. Suddenly an ant can send you to hell. Read the tale of the ancient, the rhyme of the ancient mariner.

[62:57]

Killed an albatross, went to hell. There it was, hell. He learned from it, finally. He finally learned. Watch him. He finally gives rise to a positive state of consciousness, and he comes out. He spends the rest of his life teaching karma. But he could have just stayed there forever. He could have just kept flailing about, saying, God, I didn't, it wasn't that bad that I killed that palatross. Never mind. He never got out. That's karma book. To say, the reason why this happened And so on and so forth, that's pretty good. You'll get out of hell if you think that way. Or if somebody comes and whips the albatross off your neck and puts a little salve on your wounds, say, thank you. A little gratitude for a little relief from it. That kind of thinking. Get you out of hell. That's karma bubble, okay?

[63:59]

See the difference? So we're always in among various experiences of reality, which is the gut piece. We're always experiencing things that are blissful or terrible or striking or impossibly insatiable, tormenting, mildly nauseating, kind of exciting, various ways. These are what we come up with when we do this comparison thing. We locate ourselves in the range of experience and we come up with the conclusion, which is me. And it's all kinds of responses to that. So, by our comparisons, we establish our experience, and then by our karmic action, positive karmic, I mean, active karmic action, we propel ourselves around another circle, and we wind up, this line here. And by reacting to that, we wind up here. And what we're recommending is that if you spend really a few time meditating on the process, you stay in the human realm.

[65:03]

And here I am talking about this, and while I'm talking about this, we're all staying in the human realm, everybody that's paying attention anyway. This is what the human realm's like, this kind of discussion. We're not, you know, in sort of, what do you call it, blowing the top of our heads off with bliss, but none of us are really tremendously frightened either. At least as far as I can tell. So this kind of contemplation keeps you in the best possible situation. Or rather, if you weren't in the best possible situation, you couldn't do this contemplation. It's hard to say which is which. Yeah? Is the human roundly only? Is the human roundly only? You can also do it in the heavenly realm, but heavenly realm is rather unstable. You can also hear and understand Buddhist teachings in heaven pretty well.

[66:11]

But heaven's a very fragile state. It's kind of like, human realm, you're kind of like grounded. And your spirit is the kind of experience that it's like, it's basically the first noble truth. So your life is like a reiteration of the beginning of Buddhist practice, if you're in the human realm. It all makes sense to you, basically. And you're not going to fall, if you're practicing Buddhism, there's no chance of falling. out of human realm. But heavenly realm, if you're a human being and you're in heavenly realm, you'll fall out of heaven. And falling out of heaven might be a bit of a shock to you. Now, if you're practicing really well, you know, you won't, you won't, you'll be able to make the transition, but see, it's hard. That's why we usually suggest that people consult a teacher before they do transmeditation, because even if they're practicing pretty well and you have to have considerable yogic power to get into these states in the first place, They're a little tricky. So the human realm is the best. Once you get good at the human realm, practicing here, you can go off to heaven and hell.

[67:16]

Start with heaven. With some guidance, because you may not be able to handle it. You can handle the heaven, but you may not be able to handle when it ends. Anybody can handle it. But when it ends, you may get very discouraged and say, oh, God, this practice really doesn't work. I thought I was doing really well, and now I lost it all. So unless you can go to heaven and come back without that kind of frustration, you shouldn't go there. It's unnecessary. You're not going to do any good. If you have that understanding, you're not going to help heaven beings anyway. But if you can go to heaven and come back easily, without big shock, without remorse and a sense of forlornness about the great bliss, When you can do that, then you can also go to animal rounds, ghost rounds, hell rounds, back and forth, back and forth. It doesn't matter. You can get good exercise, actually. Why go to heaven?

[68:42]

To develop wisdom. To develop a thorough, to deepen your penetration into experience. So you may be pretty good in the human realm, but it's possible to stay in the human realm forever and never go to these other realms and still be able to handle them in case you ever had to go. But you have to be able to go to them without being caught. Otherwise, you're not thorough bodhisattva. You don't totally know your capacity. So you have to know your capacity. Well, actually, I think most people already know. I don't know most. Anyway, a lot of people already know. They have the capacity to go to these places. But very few people know that they have the capacity to go there with detachment and not care whether they're there or here. Or here or there.

[69:44]

Most of us don't do that. But you can know that and stay in the human realm. But if you know it, then you can go there. Knowing it is the same as going. Knowing that if you went to an extremely high state of yogic bliss and that you just see it as another conditioned situation and it wouldn't make any difference to you, you'd just as soon be moving rocks at Tassajara. or riding on the bus in San Francisco. If you know that, you can go there or not. But it's hard to know that without going. It's hard. Because how do you know? How do you even know you can get there? You're assuming that you have the yoga power to get there in the first place. How do you know without being able to do it? Well, somebody could tell you you did. So someone, your teacher could say, You're good enough. You could go there if you wanted to. You don't have to go. We'd rather have to go to this meeting tomorrow. But you could go. You have the yogic power to go to that state, but you don't have to.

[70:46]

And now you have the yogic power to go there, but you have the insight not to be caught by it. Even if you saw that state, you still wouldn't think it was liberation. You'd think it was just another trip that you conducted by virtue of your concentration. You wouldn't fall for it. You don't have to go. But aside from that, basically you have to enter these these states of concentration, in order to know that you wouldn't fall for them. And they're very tempting. In the world, there's nothing as good as them. And if you fall for something, you'll definitely fall for those. If there's anything you fall for, you'll fall for those. Those are the... If you can handle those and not get attached to them and be willing to give them up, then nothing below will bother you. Harvey still should go below and check them out too, just to make sure. just so you can know the names of the stuff that you're not attached to. Just an example. By the way, yesterday I was in South Hill, and these people down there are doing pretty well.

[71:47]

They're doing this and that. They've got these bodies going and they're torturing each other. And this is how they do it down there. Anybody want to come with me? I'm going back next Thursday. So that kind of thing, you know. But you might not know. You wouldn't be able to describe it unless you got checked out occasionally. And people who are there or in the neighborhood or visited recently and come back, it would be interesting for them to hear your point of view. So that's why a Buddhist teacher might go to a movie sometime and come back and tell people what he saw. Isn't that interesting? He went to the movie and all he noticed was the location of the fire exits. The main thing is... He noticed that it was really hard for people to get out in case there was a fire. Huh. Didn't think of that at all. He didn't say anything about the movie. All he noticed was that the popcorn had real butter on it. And so on. So you go to these places to give your point of view to people who have been there, who are thinking of going there, who are afraid of going there, etc., etc., who have friends that live there or go there often.

[72:56]

It's hard to dream up examples and to talk to people about them unless you visit these patients occasionally. But if you can go to the highest heaven, you'll never be tempted by hell because they're not nearly as fun. But what happens is people go to these heavens and they're so delicious that they get attached to them and then they go to hell. Or in other ways, you go to these heavens, you come back to the human realm and you start getting angry that you're not there. You get angry at somebody who's... And you're getting ready to take off again, because then you're getting set here, and somebody says, excuse me, would you please, don't go now. And then you say, do you realize what you're interrupting? And then you go. There you are sitting on your cushion. You did not turn this dick, and you're not going to heaven either. You're in hell. The whole world is sticking pins in you because you... Now, if you weren't going to heaven and you refused to take the stick, then you won't go to hell.

[74:03]

If you were just going to sit in the human realm and rot away and suffer it out, then if you refuse the stick, it doesn't matter much. It's just a bad one way or another. So you won't go to hell. But then you'd usually, you know, why not carry the stick? What's the difference? But if you really, if you refuse a stick not caring whether you'd refuse it or not, then it's not really refusing it. It's a good teaching to somebody to say no when you really don't mean no. So, excuse me, but what we've been doing today is talking about the big picture in which this Anjra Baba fits in. We haven't really talked about it today. We're talking about Anjra Baba, the place of decision, or the place where the Actually, pre-decisions come together and sort of connect with each other, project you into the next kind of experience. So you get into these realms of comparison by virtue of past karma.

[75:07]

So, Antara Bhava talks about how your past thinking then comes to fruition at the decision point in the Antara Bhava, and then how that projects you into the next Purva Kala Bhava. So today we still haven't talked much about Antara Bhava. But I hope you have some sense of how it gets in the picture. Maybe you don't, and I should talk about it more next time, but that's sort of what we're doing. Yes? What? Antra-bhava? Well, see, Antra-bhava, karma-bhava, happens in here. Karma-bhava is in Purva-kala-bhava, and Jati-bhava, and Marana-bhava. Part of Antra-bhava is karma-bhava. Part of it is not. At some point, you make a decision and you choose. That's karma bhabha. So karma bhabha, active karma occurs in all those states. But also the gutti occur in all these states. Except the gutti don't occur here, the gutti don't occur here, and the gutti don't occur here.

[76:11]

But the gutti are mixed in. The being states are mixed in with the becoming states. The gutti are mixed in with karma bhabha and purva khabhabha. So the two different ways of talking about karma bhava and gutti bhava are active karma and experiential type of karma, like being and non-being, and neither talking about stages in the process. So this is not a gutti. This is a place where you decide on your gutti. And part of each is checking the situation out. you're not committed to any gutting, and at some point you make a decision to go somewhere, and then because of that, you project yourself into a certain way of seeing the world. So, maybe next time, we'll start talking about the details of what happened in this transition space between the various ways of experiencing things.

[77:14]

So, chapter Karga 10, No. Karakaten. Karakaten? Karakaten and so on. Discuss. So start a Karakaten and you will be reading about the internal details of this state. This is the bardo. Is it clear what we're doing? I thought we'd talk about Hunter Bubba this week, and then next week start telling, we'll book the Tibetan Book of the Dead, but it'll be a while before we beat out, and probably take maybe a week or so on discussing this Hunter Bubba.

[78:15]

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