We could start reading on Karkah 10. last time someone asked, aren't you born into the intermediary existence? And so we say, no, you aren't, because you have not yet arrived at a place, one of the destinies.

[01:20]

But on the other hand, way you're born into intermediary existence is by a similar process that you're born into the other destinies. So you die, take death consciousness, and actually you take a kind of birth consciousness into intermediary existence. And you actually can die in intermediary existence. And then same process, a similar process of death at the end of intermediary consciousness, and then you're born into the destiny. The thing about intermediary consciousness that's different from all the other intermediary being or intermediary consciousness that's different from all the other ones is that you always go through it between any of the others. you're not born there but it doesn't mean you don't go through a some kind of a birth process and a death process prior to it so you go a death process kind of birth process into it and a death process from it and a birth process from it a birth process into the actual destiny that follows it okay so in a sense you are born into it

[02:54]

In another sense, Abhidharma Kosha is saying, one cannot say that it is born. This existence is born. Okay? Is that okay? Huh? Any questions on the first paragraph or so? Probably better to say, let us say that it is birth, but it is not born.

[03:59]

born is also okay. So for me, we better write both, birth and being born. These three words, upapati, upapana, and upapadayama. but I just want to mention that... Let's see... What are these other sects?

[06:01]

These other sects are... written down someplace. Some of these other sects that deny it are, for example, the Mahasangikas, Mahasangikas, and the Lokottara vadans, Mahi-sasakas, Mahi-sasakas, and so on.

[07:01]

Contemporary Vasubandhu? Well, they're contemporary of Abhidharma, but by time of Vasubandhu, Abhidharma's been going on quite a while. So, in the Abhidharma literature, these other sects are recorded as disagreeing, as saying that there isn't an intermediate being. Third one is Mahi-sasakas. There's other ones, too, like these. and so on but i didn't mention some of them yes well there's they um the theravadans uh they use they talk about this thing called bhavanga

[08:17]

which we may have a chance to compare the bhavangas, the way the bhavanga functions. Bhavanga means kind of like bhava, means existence, and anga. What does anga mean? I don't know what anga means exactly, but I think it means something like or something like that. So bhavanga means a stream of being. And bhavanga, in the Theravada tradition, when you change from wholesome to unwholesome states of consciousness, since they can't... In their system, they can't understand or they can't explain that you change from wholesome to unwholesome.

[09:24]

Wholesome can't cause unwholesome, and unwholesome can't cause wholesome. But wholesome can cause neutral, and unwholesome can cause neutral. So bhavanga is neutral, like antara bhava, is neutral. So they see that every time you change gears from one kind of consciousness to another, you go back into this kind of neutral state. This rather subdued, basic state of consciousness. And as it turns out, that's something like what we're saying here too, is that when you go from one kind of consciousness, one kind of birth, into another kind of birth, go into this antarabhava. And I haven't yet done this, and if anybody wants to try to do it, they can.

[10:29]

And that is to compare the... You see, they have this way of... They have this explanation in the Theravada of what they call the process or the stages and the disturbance of the bhavanga. Okay? So you have the bhavanga... And then when sensory input becomes sufficiently strong, they disturb it and it starts to get stirred up and goes through these various stages until you reach the full state of a kind of a full moment of consciousness. And when you reach that and that sort of subsides up, that goes back down into the Vavanga again. That process by which you disturb the Vavanga to reach this fully registered state of experience, it turns out is quite... has some similarity to the way, to the process of death as described in the avidharma. If someone would like to try to explore the relationship between the two, it would be interesting.

[11:32]

I may do it myself, I may not. So the first two stages, you're stirring it up and then you go into the adverting and and you go into the noting, and then you go into that, what do you call it, the jamana phase, and then you go into the registering phase. So they have the 17 stages, right? Well, in the process of, in the Abhidharma description of death, if you go back and look at the Abhidharma description of death in Chapter 2, the way things fall apart. It looks like the reverse process of that. There's this process of how the winds and the humors start falling apart, and corresponding to that are these perceptual changes that happen.

[12:36]

These perceptual changes that happen, and corresponding with all these humors getting deteriorating, those perceptual changes sound like those 17 stages of perception. As the humors fall apart, the perceptions go from images and so on, which is fully developed cognition, down to very simple states, very clear states, like bhavanga. And when you come into birth, you start with this simple state, like intermediate, neutral state, it's very calm and clear, and you get more and more agitated and concrete, up into full-fledged images again. it sounds like although they don't have intermediate being that maybe they're bhavanga and how you get in and out of bhavanga is comparable to this but the words are slightly different phenomena although quite similar but they break it up into 17 instead of eight here it's broken up the stages of perceptual change are broken into eight phases here in this savastavadana but in both cases there's some kind of

[13:50]

There's some kind of neutral, calm, more calm, uncommitted, undisturbed state between more active states. And in death consciousness before one and birth consciousness after the other, in full-fledged death consciousness, full-fledged birth consciousness in the sense of reincarnation in one case, but also in the other case, just in ordinary life, going from unwholesome to wholesome, there's this kind of transition. There's some comparison to be made there, but they... So there's not exactly a disagreement, actually. I think they can probably... There shouldn't be a disagreement, because we're not really talking about phenomena, just observing the phenomena of human existence. So there should be an agreement. All humans should agree with this process.

[14:52]

see straight but human beings that can see straight still might use different teachings so teachings might vary according to circumstances but this is basic phenomenal experience we're talking about yes well uh the old charms you use alive is known on transformations of consciousness different style of talking, but also it's quite, you don't need intermediate existence then so much. Anyway, for them there's no, it's all mine, so to make a big deal out of it's not so relevant. Transform into regular life consciousness, into death consciousness, into intermediate consciousness, into birth consciousness, into another consciousness. This is not real. change. It's all mental transformation.

[15:58]

Coming and going of bodies is really just transformations of mind. Now, not to say the other schools don't agree with that, but in a sense, the Sarvastavadhan is saying there really is a body, and there really are external stimuli. So, they're coming and going. something we should maybe make some distinctions about when the body comes and goes. But material events in Yogacara are not really material. They're material, but they're material or a kind of mental event, which are never experienced outside of sense consciousness. So it's really talking about sense consciousness evolving into mind consciousness and so on. Anyway, they don't need going to need it. Well, they only deny the experience, the way these transformations are experienced, but for them it's not like some radical break.

[17:13]

So the Bhavanga idea, the Laya Vijnana idea, seeds, and intermediate beings are all getting same area, same type of experience. Namely, for Buddhists, some Buddhists say, Yogacarans, some Yogacarans say, yes, there is consciousness. Consciousness doesn't exist the way people ordinarily think it does. Consciousness is self-luminous. It's empty. Radiant. radiant freedom. And radiant freedom is thought. In other words, radiant freedom is conscious of itself. That keeps changing all the time, but it's always so. It's the nature of reality. There's this radiant awareness.

[18:13]

Radiant, unhindered mind. And this mind can imagine itself as incarnating. and imagine itself as disincarnating. Majamaka says, there's not even radiant mind, there's just emptiness. However, emptiness is form. So emptiness, the fact that there's forms and there's not forms, there's feelings and there's not feelings, these transformations, they seem to occur And you can describe them. But it's not this big deal of birth. It's what's happening, and death is not happening. There's always emptiness. There's always meditation and emptiness going on. And that doesn't ... The phenomenal experiences of birth and death

[19:24]

denied in this view where everything is empty. But they don't really happen. Yes? Um, alive as jnana is, and that's why alive as jnana is more sophisticated than bhavanga. Bhavanga is momentary, too, but It has a little bit more of a substantial feeling. So, it's, you know, it's a little bit feeling like this. This is bhavanga. And then bhavanga gets disturbed and you have this other kind of consciousness. And then this other kind of consciousness subsides back into bhavanga and you have another kind of consciousness. So, of course there's two ways to look at it. One is that bhavanga is always going on. And then there's waves on top of it.

[20:29]

Like that. Or another way to look at it is this is a moment of consciousness which you call pure bhavanga. And then this is a moment of consciousness. And bhavanga's ordinary nature is gone. I mean, you can't see it then, actually. You're into this kind of experience. You could say bhavanga's there in a sense. So what do you want to say that Bhavanga's here, Bhavanga's here, Bhavanga's here, Bhavanga's here. Or whether you want to say, this is a Bhavanga, and that's what we mean by a Bhavanga. Or you want to say, this is Bhavanga, and this is what we have called ordinary experience, ordinary waking experience. And the Bhavanga's still there, hidden in it, but you can't see the calm continuity there. It's probably... say that Bhavanga's there and then Bhavanga's here, you get into trouble as a Buddhist.

[21:33]

To say that there's something that's always there. But you could say that Yogacarans say that there's something that's always there. But that they're saying that there's something that's always there, you can't say what it is. You can't grasp it. It's self-luminous. But that's always there. And it turns out that it's can be aware of itself. So thought's always there. Mind's always there. But then you have something that's maintained. But it's not really maintained because it's constantly dying. It's constantly being destroyed. But it's not destroyed. It's just constantly changing. So live jnana is changing all the time. It's never the same live jnana. And yet it always has infinite possibilities because it's empty. It's luminous. It's radiant. So it never loses anything, and yet it's changing all the time. And it's changing by what it seems to be experiencing. Or not what it seems to be experiencing, but the experience of it changes it. And yet it's not the same thing.

[22:43]

So we don't want to err on either side of saying that nothing exists in the usual sense, but also we don't want to deny experience, because emptiness is inseparable from it. If you examine experience carefully, you find out it's empty. So, in one sense, it depends on how you want to look at it. I think to be aware that both of these possibilities occur, namely to think there's one thing that goes through that's always present called bhavanga, or to see that sometimes it's pure bhavanga. Other times we have other experiences which may be included, but it's not important to us. But in a sense it's there, and then we're back to it again. So in one sense you could say it goes on, but in another sense you could say it's transformed all the time and it's constantly changing.

[23:48]

So it doesn't go on. Both of those views are probably the best picture. So one way to look at intermediate is that it lasts, as you said you'll see or have seen.

[24:56]

They ask, how long does intermediate existence last? One school says seven, another school says forty-nine. Seven days or forty-nine days. But actually, if it does last forty-nine days, another understanding of that is that actually one intermediate existence ends another one starts, so that you can have intermediate existences following each other. being can't quite make a decision about taking rebirth in any of the regular ghatis.

[26:07]

You don't decide to go any of them. So you, by virtue of that, try again. Give up on intermediate existence. Try another intermediate existence. Because you always go into So you die of intermediate existence. But after you die, you go into intermediate existence, so you go back into intermediate existence. But there's a limit of number of times you can do that, they all say. You can't do that indefinitely. So this would say that you don't have you don't have people that are ghosts, so to speak, staying in intermediate existence for a long time. Rather, they'll probably become hungry ghosts, people in search of a birth. But after a while, so it's saying, after some number, they're saying seven, you basically, by not being willing to take a birth, by not being willing to take a birth,

[27:23]

In fact, you de facto, you become a common law hungry ghost. But you don't see it that way. You really can't. You're not satisfied with any situation, any birth, so you become hungry ghost. And while you're hungry ghost, you're roaming around in that realm, unsatisfied with that too, looking for some place to be. So Seigaki ceremony is for ghosts, all the unsatisfied beings who aren't happy with their rebirth. Seigaki means preta, hungry ghost. There, we don't include him because we're damn sure he didn't do that.

[28:42]

We know he goes where he wants to. We're confident that he's confident. So everybody else that we're not sure about, we can't be sure. In other words, We're not using them as a focal point of our lineage. We're not basing our practice on their practice, necessarily. Somebody has to be competent at this transmigration business, and we're choosing our founder as an example of somebody who can scoot around in this field at will. And we do this with considerable confidence. example we also say. Come on. Come on back for your memorial service. Hmm?

[29:50]

Maybe reborn? Why do we do that? Because we have confidence that we can bring his practice back at will. We can do that. His presence, we can recreate his presence at will. And the memorial ceremony, particularly the eye-opening part of it, invite him to come back to the Founders Hall. In other words, we are confident we can recreate his presence. We must be able to do this. If we can't do this, then the lineage is broken. So we welcome him back to the ceremony. You may say, well, this being, this bodhisattva may be someplace else now.

[31:00]

and so how could they come? But this bodhisattvas' ability to be wherever they are, this enlightened essence is wherever it is, whatever it's doing, we can recreate that essence here, now. This is our confidence at that ceremony. So we are confident that we can do it and we are confident that this being has is also taking good care of itself, manifesting itself out of compassion some way, somehow, somewhere. We know that. And the way that that being can do that now, and the way it did it at Suzuki Roshi, is the way we do it now, at this ceremony, on the site of the statue of this being. This statue is dedicated to this being which now doing other work, but once did this work called living a life as a Zen monk for 67 years, partly in Japan, partly in America.

[32:15]

So this bodhisattva, existence of this bodhisattva, is partaking When it takes birth, it isn't like it takes birth in some body here and then somebody else can't call it. It doesn't have to give up this body in order to be used over here. It took a body here and the body deteriorated and went away. Now it takes another body maybe. But other beings who have also taken bodies at the same time that this took a body, this body went away, they can remember this enlightened consciousness activity as it was in a body. Now they say, will you bring this enlightened essence back, this body, this enlightened essence, maybe in some other body now, but it's not like you have to pull it out of that body over here, or like all of it went into that body, or something like that. Enlightened essence is all over the place. Everything's got it, and yet it comes into forms, into this person called Suzuki Rashi.

[33:31]

into a person called Klaus, and so on. So we can lacquer you and use you as a focal point at some point, if we wish. According to other sects, there is a cutting off, there is a discontinuity. So now Vasubandhu is going to try to prove by reasoning and by consulting scriptures that there really is an intermediate existence, intermediate type of being. I don't know if you need to be convinced, but we can read this. 11 A.B.

[34:44]

exist in the same space. In the same place, standing in the mirror, a man placed alongside, perceived the rupa of the mirror, gathered derived from great elements, even dyed a rupa. A man placed facing him, perceived his own reflection, and could be a such a short color, derived from the matter. Now one cannot get the two derived matters at the same time, in the same place, but each of them should have Two men who live at the same object, picture, and so on, both see it at the same time. Two men placed on two sides on the top, see the reflection of the object, see the face. Same reflection is not seen at the same time as one of the others. The shade and sunlight do not co-exist in the same state. Not one person in the mirror in the shade. In the shade, it's too early in the sunlight. of the mirror is a reflection of the reflection of the sun on the surface of the water.

[37:31]

It is not proved by the two remarks that the reflection is not a certain view of things. The character is susceptible of another interpretation. The two things are the surface of the mirror and the reflection of the mirror. of the mirror and a reflection of the room which should be on the mirror. This reflection appears in the background in depth like water in the water. Now it's a real color for the reflection of the board that you use the one on the surface of the mirror that you perceive as being on the surface of the mirror. Such a reflection is only an illusory idea of taking the form of reflection. How do you mean by calm, calm, and visionality? the power of this concept and learn an object which site produces a reflection of an image presented now. It is incomprehensible if the power of the diamond comprises its power.

[38:36]

It does submit, nevertheless, the real existence of the reflection. However, it cannot serve as an example of the reason. The latter being posterior to the former and appearing in different states without a break between them. Your counsel is one of two causes. It is by reading the two corners of the reflection of this point, by reading on the mirror and on the object. Of these two corners, principle one, the cause upon which it raises itself, and in the mirror. On the contrary, In the case of these abolitionist beings, since they appear in space, birth existence is now its general point of support.

[39:48]

And for beings born and seen in the blood, mind, these are the principle clause that they have been learned of thought. Thus recently demonstrates the existence of the intermediary being since birth existence received death existence without their being Any questions on all that stuff? I wouldn't worry about it too much, because it's just, it's just trying to substantiate this, and really you don't need to substantiate it.

[40:50]

Except maybe if somebody asks you to. They ask you to, and here's a place where they, So the Intermediary Being is called by name. And the name is... Sutta says there are seven Bhavas. Naraka. Thiryagoni. Manusha, Preta, Deva. and Antara. Okay, so there's seven Bhavas and Pajamaloka.

[41:58]

That's the world. Okay? So the point here is that wouldn't mention antarabhava, if it were one of the gattis. The school we combat does not read this sutra. At least they will read the text relating to Gandharva. This is a Gandharva. Can someone read the next two paragraphs? When reading the sutra, three conditions are required for the embryo to descend. so that a son or daughter may be born. The woman is in good health and treatment. The spouses are united. The Gandhara is disposed. What would the Gandhara be if not the intermediary being? But our adversaries do not read the sutra in these terms. They replace the third condition by a text which says, a distribution of skandhas, that is to say, more of one is disposed.

[43:06]

very well, but one doubt that they could explain the Aspala Namasutra. This Kandarva, who is disposed, do you know whether he comes from the east, the south, the west, or the north? This expression, to come, shows that it is a question of an intermediary need, not of a dissolutionist. If our adversaries do not read this sutra, Okay, do you understand so far? Any questions so far? This is still, basically, proving by sutra now, that the intermediate being exists. See why they brought this point up? Okay, so, if you aren't convinced now, here's another citation. is proved by the text pertaining to the five.

[44:10]

Bhagavad shows that there are five Anagamans. Ankar Pari Nirvayan, Udhaparadhyana Rini Nirvayan, Anadishyam Skara Pari Nirvayan, Nivayan, Sabi Samskara Pari Nirvayan, The first is the saint to attain nirvana in the immediate space. In the course of the immediate array of death, the second is one to attain nirvana through re-information. Certain masters maintain the unharad-hari nirvayam is the saint to achieve nirvana after having been reborn among the gods called unharad. Okay, I understand that.

[45:26]

Any questions? Yes? What did you say? Who's... Who's trying to posit this being? No. They're saying that there is no unturn above them. our adversaries say that there isn't an antarabhava, all right? So they're saying that this being that's called antaraparanirvayan enters nirvana after having existed as that kind of a god.

[46:29]

They're saying they don't come from antarabhava. The sutras, one way to read it is saying from antarabhava you're born, you go to nirvana, all right? the way that Vaibhashik is reading. The other people are saying, oh, these are gods from this realm. But if that's the case, then they're saying, then all these other gods are from these other realms. All right? That that's what the names of all these are. But that's absurd that these are the names of gods. Okay? Who's saying that? No, the Vibhashas are not saying that. Vibhashikas are saying that there's an antarabhava. And this sutra is saying that beings can be born from antarabhava, intermediate state, into, from there they can go to nirvana.

[47:33]

No, they're saying within the six, namely in the heavenly gutti, from some of the gods in there, from those god realms, you can be born into nirvana. Yeah, they're saying these are the names of the gods. These are some god names that, from these deva realms, you can go to nirvana. And... Vatsubandhu is saying that these couldn't be names of God realms, all these states. These are just different states that you can be born into, and they're not all the names of gods. The point that makes, it may even make sense to say that there could be these untera gods, but it doesn't hold for all the other ones. So it must be untera bhava that they're talking about here. Does that make sense to you? What do you think?

[49:07]

Right, but that realm of God is included in the gutty of God, isn't it? Why can't the other gods go into Nirvana? saying that you don't think gods can go to nirvana?

[50:12]

Is that why you're saying that? What makes you think they think it's not so? Where do they do that? are you reading what what actually you're reading that says that okay so that just says they go into this state and then they go to nirvana from there all right doesn't say that they can't be born from other doesn't say that they can't be

[51:56]

to other God realms and be born to nirvana, does it? I don't see that it says that. It just says that this saint goes into this God realm and then goes, a lot of saints do that, you know. They go into heaven and then they go to nirvana. If a saint an advanced Buddhist can go to a heaven and then go to nirvana. They don't have to go to the heaven, but that's one way to go. But you don't have to go to the heavens. No. You don't have to go to the heavens. But in fact, going to the heavens is not going to stop you. So these never-returners, you know, Anagandans, often go away see they're not buddhas now okay and they're not in arhats now so they die they don't come back anymore they're going to actually be going to nirvana all right but they're not going to come back anymore but they're not and they're not they're not arhats now and they're not going to come back so they're going to do something else before they're going to be someplace else before they go to nirvana

[53:22]

go if they're here now and then they go to nirvana then that's an arhat but they don't go to nirvana from here they just go away we don't see them anymore so they do something else and then they go see that's what it says here it's talking about five kinds of anagamans okay so anagamans are the they're saints they're not arhats but they're not coming back once returners they may they go away and they come back and when they come back they may be arhats or they may be anagamans the amagamans are are buddhist are buddhist shravakas who they they leave and they don't go to nirvana they just split they die we don't see them anymore but they don't come back anymore either see our hearts don't come back either anagamis don't come back and our hats don't come back our house actually go to nirvana now. That's the way they don't come back.

[54:27]

Anagamians just split. Then they go someplace. Where are they going to go? They're not going to come back here, so where are they going to go? They're going to go to some heaven. Then from that heaven, they go to nirvana. So Anagamians must go to, they must go someplace else, to some realm, other than being here in the Kamadatta. They must go to some heavenly realm, and from that they go into nirvana. go in intermediate that's the same thing they die okay they go into intermediate existence but they don't take another birth so from intermediate existence they they become extinct okay so they're not they're going they're going to die now and they're going to go into immediate existence and they're and they're either going to die they're either going to go from intermediate existence directly to nirvana or they're going to go from intermediate existence to some heavenly abode

[55:27]

And then from there they're going to go. They may travel, they may do a lot of stuff, but from our point of view they're not coming back. So some beings, some saints, get on this thing and they go away and they may do quite a bit of traveling, which we consider to be not coming back. you know, what do you call it, the Buddhist train station, the Shravaka train station, the Hinayana train station. So you have these various kinds of Buddhist saints there. Some get on the train, they drive out, and you see them, they come back, say, hi, how are you? They do that seven times, some of them. Shrotta-panans do that. They take trips and keep coming back. Seven times, at least.

[56:29]

Once returners take one more trip, come back, and then they come back, and they come back to the station again. The next time they come to the station, they get on the train, and everything goes quick. No train, no nothing, just nirvana. And the once-returner, however, is interesting. The never-returner is quite interesting, because the never-returner gets on the train, and sometimes they go into intermediate, and they start going away into intermediate existence, and then they go, nirvana. Other ones, and they do all kinds of traveling. So you see some of your friends, they go away, and they become enlightened right away. Some do quite a bit of traveling, and then later you fear about it. But you don't really hear about it because they don't come back to tell you. And not all our hearts are never-returners, have been never-returners. Some our hearts, in this life, under our noses, nirvana. But there is this possibility of individual extinction, individual freedom, but nobody sees it.

[57:46]

Okay? And they're saying here that they said, intermediate, from there you can do it. I don't know if I can be that clear. This is discussed in considerably more detail in Chapter 6, where they discuss these different Lighting Personalities, the personalities of the four kinds of Hinayana saints. And one more sutra, the Sutra of the Gattis, could someone read? The first is like a spark which dies as soon as it is born.

[59:18]

The second like a fragment of red-hot metal which is extinguished in flight. The third is a fragment of a red-hot metal which is extinguished in flight, but later and without falling to the ground. It is a text that is pure fantasy to suppose that the antara is an inhabitant of the heaven of the antaras, for these antaras cannot divide themselves in three classes by reason of duration of space. But other doctors and other members of the bhajjya at the witness of the bhasha present the following explanation. The antara pari nirvaya obtained nirvana, Eliminates the passion during the interval of his wife's duration or during the interval of his sojourn with the gods. He is tripled. He is called Datu Gatha. If he has seen Nirvana as soon as he arrives in the Datha, that is to say in a heaven of Lupa Datha.

[60:20]

Consequently, if he eliminates the passions which cause him to be reborn in the Lupa Datha when they are still in the seed state. He is called Samjana Gatha. He obtains nirvana later, at a moment when the notion of the objects of the rubidatsa is active within him. He is called vatagagata if he obtains nirvana still later, at a moment when the vatagas, volition and so forth, produced by these objects, are active. In this manner, we shall have three antarapari nirvana conforming to the definitions of the sutra and to obtain nirvana in the interval and duration of their life. That is to say, without reaching the term of the life of the gods in the heaven in which they reincarnate. Or again, the first antarapari nirvana, the famous nirvana, as soon as he has taken possession of a certain divine existence. The second, after having experienced celestial beauty, devasamrithim anubhya,

[61:29]

Third, after having entered the conclave or conversation of the gods, dharma-sam-gati, dharma-sam-katsaka, one objection presents itself. If the answer is hard in your mind, the saint who reincarnates, experiences beautitude, enters the conclave of the gods, what will be the upa? literally, the one who attains nirvana after being reborn. One replies that the uphajya-kari nirvana enters the conclave completely. And as this reply is not very complicit, one answers that the uphajya-kari nirvana reduces greatly more than the uphajya-kari nirvana. But we shall point out that all these personages, the Datsun Gata himself, work good the same way.

[62:38]

Therefore, they correspond to the examples of the history. On the other hand, there are in the Arupadatsus, saints who obtained the Datsun Gata without having lived their life completely. Nevertheless, there are no untarled part in your body. This point is illustrated in the metric formulas. By the dhyanans, four decades, by the aruthias, the free, hepte, by the insomnia, one hexade. Thus the group is connected. Yet if our adversaries do not read the sutra, what can we do? The master, having entered nirvana, the good law no longer has a leader. Many sects have formed which alter the meaning in the letter according to their fancy. Let us say that for the doctors who accept these searches, the existence of the intermediary being, or the intermediate skandis, is proved by the scripture and by reasoning. Nevertheless, let us confront certain difficulties. Okay. So.

[63:39]

So if that isn't enough, it's all we've got the bosses left. Giving you several examples of what he said, so if that isn't enough. on some certain difficulties. We must reconcile the doctrine of the intermediary being with the Sutra on Mara. The Sutra says, the Mara called Dusan, having struck the head of Vidura, the disciple of Krakut Shanda, fell with his very body into the great hell of Egypt. Very grave acts by intention and field are very complete, that is to say, accumulated, breaking before death itself. Ammar thus feels a retribution in this life before feeling infernal retribution. According to the sutra, there are five crimes called anantarya. The one who has committed them is born immediately in hell. Samantaram narakesh supah adyate.

[64:47]

Let us say that the expression immediately means without intermediary, without passing through another destiny. These are acts retributed in that future existence. If you take the sutra literally, you will end with absurd consequences. You will say that one must have committed the five crimes to reincarnate in hell. You will say that the guilty one reincarnates in hell immediately after the crime, or that he reincarnates there without having died down there, not here. Besides, according to our doctrine, reincarnation in hell is immediate. It is not preceded by a birth as an intermediary being. We maintain that by his nature, the intermediary being is incarnated because he is turned toward birth, which follows the death existence. We do not say that he is born. You should explain this then. Your life approaches its end, Obram. You are old and sick. You are in the presence of Yama. Not for you a stay in the intermediary space.

[65:50]

And you have no. Vaya Kakuma. Vasubhanda, do you think that this stanza shows that there is no intermediary existence? By the way, that's a Eucharist given to a dying person or supplies given to a person on a journey. A Eucharist? This is a Eucharist given to the dying person or the supplies for a journey. We think that this standard shows that there is no intermediary existence, but we understand the words antarabasa in the sense of a stay among men. Once dead, you will not come back here, or else the text means nothing will detain the march of the intermediary being that you will become towards the place of your infernal injury.

[66:51]

The negator of the intermediary intermediary being will ask on what do we base ourselves to say, such is the intention of this text, such is not the intention. We shall answer him by the same question. If in this manner the two questions balance each other, what proof will you obtain? Let us observe that for the sutras of Mara and so forth, the explanations of the negator of the intermediary being and our own are not contradicted by the text itself. Thus the texts are not conclusive either, or for or against the intermediary being. Conclusive and constituting proof are texts which can only be interpreted in one matter, such as the ones we have quoted. form of the intermediary being, being projected by the same act which projects the purva kalabhava, that is to say, the being of the destiny to come after its conception.

[68:43]

The intermediary being has the form of this being. The act which projects the gati or destiny, an infernal existence and so on, is the same act which projects the intermediary existence by means of which one goes to this destiny. Consequently, antarabhava has the form of the future purvakalabhava, of the destiny towards which one goes. So retribution can be undefiled neutral, can't it?

[70:00]

So it's saying here that there's this active karmic state, which is now here, then death, or death could be that active karmic state. Death can be positive, can be wholesome, unwholesome, or neutral. Okay? Anyway, there's this projecting state. It projects the intermediate being, and it projects the being that will arise after conception. And that projecting act will determine the type of body that the intermediate being has, and the projecting... or projecting life that follows. Before you die. Or at death. What's the difference between intermediate and the projected?

[71:08]

Okay. The difference is necessarily undefiled neutral necessarily undefiled neutral intermediate is uh the um the being is uh fully fully formed whereas if you produce for example if you take a womb birth although you're you're not you're actually in the form of what you will become rather than you know and when you're fully developed rather than you're first born as or conceived as so for example if you're human if you're going to be a human that's already determined by the projecting karma then you actually have a human type of sort of a human type of body and intermediate existence it's not like a you know embryo or a newborn baby

[72:18]

that for a human being it's like it's like a young child like a six-year-old child or something also in the intermediate existence which is this is expanding now on the issue that is undefiled neutral, is that there are inclinations. There are inclinations from previous, from the projecting karma, there are inclinations or dispositions, okay, in this being, but they have not yet done much with them. then as part of being intermediate existence you start to follow along with these tendencies.

[73:23]

But these tendencies cannot be fulfilled in intermediate existence. You're not human, no, because human birth is not having a human body. Human birth is a certain type a certain type of attitude a certain type of way of being if you're going to if you're going to be a human if you're going to choose human type of being then you have a human type of form you don't choose the human form you don't need to choose the human form you you get a human form because way you are in the projecting karma as if you're you don't not only human beings project human birth okay so some beings which are called animals project a human birth in their present life before they die or during death they set a certain attitude which will produce human birth in the under above up

[74:47]

You will follow these tendencies. And because of these tendencies, you will choose human parents. You don't know necessarily that you have a body now, which is the kind of body that you're going to get. You don't know that you're going to be reborn. You are just attracted to that situation. The situation of the beings of the type which you're going to be reborn, of them in... consort. You think you can actually get involved with them. Actually, you can't. The consciousness wants to get involved in this stuff, but it can't. When it gets confronted with the impossibility of being involved in it, at that moment yourself off into the, you die, you drop your intermediate existence and you start projecting yourself into the next birth, into this birth which you now have wanted to be involved with.

[76:00]

But if you come through a womb, you don't come out fully developed. Whereas in the intermediate existence, you actually had, to a certain extent, you had the kind of form that you're actually going to, that you implicated yourself to by your interests. In this life situation, which could include the moment of death, the way you think is projecting you into the intermediate existence. This way of thinking is going to project you into this type of birth over here. In the intermediate existence, you're going to have a body, because this pattern is projecting this birth, this type of birth, pattern also projects a body. So this is the type of being, okay, that this kind of thinking is projecting this kind of being, and this kind of being has this kind of body.

[77:03]

In the intermediate existence, you have a body like the body of the being that this thought is projecting, but you don't yet have this type of being. You have intermediate beings. this kind of thinking in this birth in this situation this kind of thinking of this being this is a certain kind of being let's say uh v a v being has this kind of thought which projects an intermediate being that has intermediate being which will lead to this kind of being which has this kind of body and this kind of body is similar to the body of the intermediate being Yes.

[78:08]

Well, to certain extent, I mean, there's some play there. Yeah, there's still some play there. Although, the parts that are at play are at play, and the parts that aren't at play aren't at play. Some parts are set, some things are determined, and those are determined. And some things aren't determined, and that's the place to work at. That's the place where you can practice. So there's some directive power in the intermediate existence, and there's some that's not. And that's, of course, the parts that are of interest. all the time too.

[79:25]

This happens between incarnations and it happens in everyday life. So it's, it's, this kind of, this situation is telling you about daily life, life within lifespan, and life across life, and existence across lifespans. It deals with both. And, talking about bodies, also deals with both. But, You are changing human bodies all the time, actually. Your human body is changing, too. So human beings within a human lifespan are also being reborn as human bodies. So we're talking about human bodies, incarnations, and also states of being that have bodies. So this is... Next time we'll try to clarify what is determined and what is free.

[80:32]

What is determined and what you have some say over it. And try to get straight bodies and consciousnesses and beings. Besides here? you some places to read, but you have to know kind of when, you know, when you're going beyond the Abhidharma Kosha and getting into other things, which I can't exactly explain suddenly, but I've already recommended Tibetan Book of the Dead and Trungpa's introduction to it.

[81:35]

And also there's another book that just came out, part of which is in close correspondence to... this teaching, and that is, it's a book called something like, yeah. Now the Dalai Lama's introduction is straight out of the Abhidhamma Kosha, almost completely. It's a short-lived thing, nice summary of Abhidhamma Kosha. And the rest of the book, it's partly tantric yoga and partly from the Abhidhamma Kosha. So if you look in the section of the book on intermediate realm, there will be a teaching, a meditation on intermediate realm. So that's a place you can also study intermediate realm. I think that's enough.

[82:37]

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