from unwholesomeness. And from wholesomeness. You're not accumulating, are you? Yes. The effect on wholesome and unwholesome days? There's no... It doesn't. There's no... If I said that... I didn't mean it. There's no effect of Buddhist practice on wholesome and unwholesome states. You said that wholesome states less frequently or less... Dharmas, which mental states, dharmas, mental dharmas, which before in the worldly studies, in the worldly states of mind, when they were present we knew that we had an unwholesome state of consciousness, okay? Now when we see them, in the supramundane path, in Buddhist practice, they're not karmically unwholesome anymore.

[01:03]

Otherwise it would mean that a Buddhist saint, a Buddhist student, could never be a Buddhist, could never be... That means the path people would never be able to study anger anymore. But just because there's anger present, just because there's a number of these dharmas which we found when we were studying anger, when we're studying unwholesome states, doesn't mean that they're in an unwholesome state. Just as next week or whenever we start studying unwholesome states, and we start reviewing what anger means for us, and we start studying anger in our daily life, it doesn't mean that we will be encouraging ourselves to enter in wholesome states. We will be studying dharmas which are found in unwholesome states, and we'll study some dharmas and think about some dharmas which are found only in unwholesome states. But at the moment we're discussing it, even at the moment we're experiencing it, we may be in an extremely insightful and liberating state of mind. Not wholesome, not good, and not unwholesome.

[02:11]

Studying dharmas which are found in unwholesome states can be liberating, can be a Buddhist practice, but nothing to do with wholesome or unwholesome. So what I'm talking about is just talk, right? This is just talk about this world. It doesn't say so anyplace. What does this all mean? What do you think it means? It seems at one point we find it as being just practice. Right. It seems like also... Or it affords good opportunities for practice. But it seems like I've been told some states also afford good opportunities for practice. No? Well, yes, it seems like that, but that isn't the definition. The definition is that they're not conducive to... They're not conducive to practice.

[03:16]

The resolution of this is a trick. But watching... Watching anger, greed, and delusion is a very good way to practice it. Watching greed, anger, and so on and so forth is not wholesome state of consciousness then. Right. It is practice itself. But that's, those, it's not, it's like this, this is, this, this is a... unwholesome state of consciousness that contains various dharmas, various events. When I study the events that make this pencil up, I'm not in a wholesome state or unwholesome state. I'm liberated. I'm beginning the process of liberation from this pencil, from existing as this pencil, being limited by this existence of this pencil. Okay? But To be the pencil is not conducive at all to being in a state of mind that I can study the pencil. But there's other states, like this book here, that actually being in this state affords a good opportunity to being in another state, which will allow me to study this state and the pencil.

[04:29]

That's what a wholesome state is. So a wholesome state, it can have vipakas that are conducive to practice. But at the moment of a wholesome state, it isn't necessarily any more conducive to practice than... It's not. Yeah. And not so much that it has even vipakas that are conducive to practice either. But... The states that practice exists in, it turns out that they need a lot of the dharmas that are present in wholesome states. But the dharmas that are present, some of them are also present in unwholesome states. Particularly some of the dharmas that are very necessary in the practice of Buddhism are found in the unwholesome states. You can find them there. Some of the equipment you need to practice Buddhism you find in unholding states. Look at unholding states, you don't find enough of the mental functions that are needed in practice.

[05:31]

So in those vipakas, some of the stuff you need drops away, but you can get it back if you want it. But actually that's not right. What I just said is not true because you don't want to practice Buddhism. That's the funny part. Okay, well, that's enough on this. I'd like now to... For next time, I'd like you to start studying unwholesome states. But, of course, now we're studying them from the point of view of... We're now studying from the point of view of being Buddhists. So you should continue to study the mixed in with these. I'd like you to mix in the study of the path with the study of the unwholesome states together. And now realize that you're studying unwholesome states from the point of view of the business path. So you'll be studying something that won't be the path, and yet some of the components of the path will be objects of the business path.

[06:43]

So actually, maybe continue studying the path by itself, too. Understand what the path is, aside from particularly concentrating on all sorts of things. And you might... These should be left unreserved, but you might study the path in here. This book, a big section of this book is on the path. Chapter, like, 1420, and this book is on the path. Let's look at the Visuddhimagga, and read Gunther, and read Dr. Kansa, and Abhidhammat Sangaha, and the Dhammasanga, and all three. But that sounds like bullshit. It sounds like rhetoric and just words. I don't know, maybe I'm trying to get something. But show me what I'm trying to get. What am I attached to? When I asked you how you felt, and other questions about how you felt, your palms, you know, were thinking, how do I answer that question about my feelings?

[07:58]

And none of the thoughts that you come up with, of course, can really express feelings so that you say, well, indescribable or I can't really say it. It's because you're trying to ask, answer an emotional question intellectually and you can't do it. But there is something you can do, and that's just open your mouth and say it without knowing when it's going to come out. Without thinking about it first. And then, like when he said, well, I was mad, he didn't think that over first. And then he said, I was mad, and then he started thinking about, oh, well, it wasn't really... But it's that kind of spontaneous reaction without thinking over first that... is maybe risking something, you know, like risking the chance of what you say might not be defensible, you know, if someone started analyzing, you know.

[09:06]

I mean, I think that's what he's talking about, is that you got yourself so well defended intellectually that you can't answer an emotional question question, at least, you know, out there on the altar most of the time, because the way you react to it is pause, think about it, and then say, well, I just can't come up with anything. But if you just plunged in right split second after he asked it, and said, I felt, and just said, I felt, and see what comes up. What else? Where do you go? I'm not demanding you do this. I'm trying to confront you with my perception of how you come across to me. Whatever you can do with it, like you said to us.

[10:11]

Whatever we can do with what you give to us, whatever you can do with that. Question. If you think that would just be. Welcome. Why didn't you like to see the cross from the back of the moon?

[11:30]

Why? I liked it. Well, you felt uncomfortable. Uncomfortable was just a small part of it. Uncomfortable was a definite part of it. What I'm suggesting or what I feel, the way I'm trying, the way my response to your inquiry is that there's many, many ways of responding to things. I mean, there's many, many things that are going on between each one of your words and so-called my thoughts. How do you feel, Dan, about learning practice in terms of the practice of the U.S.

[12:52]

Army? Where are those thoughts, Chris? Where are they? I don't know where they are. That's what you're not telling me. Sure I am. The whole body and mind is just exuding it, man. So what's the difference? Why is there a split between the body and the mind on the one hand and the other? Can't, I can't, I'm not interested or can't, you know, say.

[13:58]

It seems to me that I could wave My eyes believe that you would like to express yourself in terms of the kind of question that you would be saying to me tonight. I'm not really acceptable here. It seems that a few people here tonight could very well be an answer to the statement. And that somehow really is not correct, you see. I wonder how you feel about it. I feel that there is an alternative to what you see. Where is it? You're in the middle of it. Yeah. I like it when I was doing it, but the first time I ever saw Suzuki Roshi was in Los Angeles.

[15:03]

And you can't just be at my Jimmy Roshi's. After this, he asked a few questions. There was a kid in the center who was asking Suzuki Roshi about all kinds of historical intricacies about something that he had said. And Roshi answered him the first time very quietly and with patience. And then the kid after the second one, he answered him the same way. And then he asked a third one, and he began trying to bait him. And he answered the fourth time, and the fifth time, and the sixth time the same way. And finally, Izumi Roshi said, that's enough.

[16:06]

Excuse me? Maybe he was the word of the soon rose right now. Yes. It's been my experience, seeing lots of people. It's been my experience that a person learns his subject from his teachers about his own, and he learns to teach from his students. That process is often painful. And because of my background, I have a lot of pretty perfectly fixed idea about teaching.

[17:18]

And one thing I have learned from your lectures is that I do have those... You do have which? Excuse me. I didn't hear one word in there. You do have which? I do have those perfectly fixed ideas. I have a lot of very thick ideas. What I want to hear, what tone of voice I want to hear. That sort of thing. And... to a very critical stage, or to be the same as you. And so I finally had reached a point where I said, okay, you cannot get what you want, why don't you see what there is? And This may sound a bit silly, but I said, all right, I see what there is. You can take it down to a very simple sensory level. Now, the way we talk, the way we do our lecture is very low pitch, long pause.

[18:26]

And it sounds a lot like . I've found that his drinking career with lectures, meetings at the back, three nights out before, we don't get to do too much sasa. And I've found that it's... I'm able to do sasa every lecture. Or I can make up a list of people like you two. But that's pretty good. Not the other way around. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.

[19:32]

people notice that we are not here encountering people. It's called, in a way, to some extent, the question of feelings may need to be perceived as a question. It's maybe more of a holistic way of view. It's very difficult to It was something quite right during the time of the Big Bang. It was very close. Still, we didn't even look back through it. We didn't really know what to say here. It was something more personal than what we were saying. It was beyond... Trying to turn something into something good, good point.

[20:38]

War of the tropics, that is true, as well. But I was real quick. In response to this, this next meeting, this next meeting, he's needed a tendency to provide this message. And I had this quick question I found with him. Or somebody asked this. Somebody came up. What they were saying. I think it was Steve. Okay, I guess I can add insults to the injury by thinking and giving you a slow, dull, responded answer to, of course, he was in that.

[21:52]

I can appreciate what you say, and it's not something new, what you're saying. So, Dan, I like your lectures. That's not what I'm saying at all. Okay, let me try to... I've got something I'm trying to say. That... What we tend to notice, I think, with each other, one kind of aspect of one dynamic of what we do is we can see, each one of us, I think, has a tendency, clearly or otherwise, to see where another person's fault is or where another person's hang-up is or shortcoming. It's real easy.

[22:57]

And I see myself involved in it deeply. And I see myself in, you know, silently when we meet each other on the road or when we're involved in some kind of work, we have criticisms directed towards somebody. And how sometimes Strong, you know, in many, many forms. Sometimes strong, we're almost to the point of doing something bad. Sometimes just getting out and doing something bad. And sometimes things turn around and start reflecting inward and looking around that way. Sometimes they just go away. And many kinds of things happen to these criticisms that come up. But to... I think if we can see somehow... and live. Let these things come in and go out.

[24:05]

And make use of the ones that circumstances need, call for to make use of. And put away the ones that need to be put away. Man or take care of the ones that need to be made. It's a pretty full life. What you may be feeling is something you see, you feel, but tonight, right now, it's happening almost. When I see one tendency that I have is to, very often, is to see something and, wow, plunge right into it.

[25:13]

I've seen that happen through my life. To the point where I'm not so confident or there's some There's some other kind of space involved in that kind of reaction to things. And I think I can appreciate what you say, that there's times when it's necessary to cut the crap, cut the bullshit, and just do something. But I think at the same time, an aspect that I felt from our life here at Tassajara, through our teachers and through just the relation that we have with this day in and day out, of course, no small part of that is a reflection that goes away. We, the weighing in, you know,

[26:18]

There is a time and a place for all of that stuff. I guess I see one of my weaknesses or one of my shortcomings is to get kind of confident, too confident in things and start putting a lot of energy. Sometimes I have a lot of energy to just throw into things. not interested in evaluating but just that letting that and letting other kinds of responses just let various let the many kinds of responses have some space and okay I'm going to go into too much I can't let's just

[27:32]

time and place to go to. Part of the function that I feel... He cultivates. He cultivates. And the words cultivate is tovana. He cultivates the jhana of the higher ideal. No, but to go into the... talking about the jhanas, he's not going into the, let's say, the rupa-jhana. All right, he does go into rupa-jhanas, doesn't he? So it's repeat four mahasikasana and then the fourth jhana system. But he doesn't ever say that he does it in order to attain to the heaven, does he? It says he cultivates the jhana of the higher ideal. So that's different than the Lupercal. The Lupercal is that you may attain to the heavens at home.

[28:38]

Great, there's a difference. So the difference is in intention. The difference is in intention, yeah. Yet the psychological volition is the same. The way the mind is working is the same. But now intention has changed. Vittaka has changed. somehow. The mind is still put under the object, but it's now, it's in some different way. So, psychologically speaking or, you know, it's hard to say what it would be to look at the earth mound and to look now at some Buddhist, at the first mobile truth or something. But there is this difference, we call this difference, the right intention versus just initial application. It's guided now by the precepts. Yes?

[29:46]

In some sense, you're saying that the sensible will become... But they're techniques. They become... The meditation object has changed too. The techniques are quite similar. The objects have changed now, and also the intention has changed, and also now. Right speech and right action, right livelihood are present, and right thought. Never before were all three present. Sometimes one, sometimes the other, but never all three. Now all three are present. Yes? Is it possible for simple-sided rational to not practice the precepts?

[30:47]

Well, what does it say? It says, in the first path, and it says, what are the things you have there? You have right view. You have right action, right speech, and right livelihood. So it looks like I don't see the listing exception to the rule where you don't have all three of these. If you have all three of these, it sounds like you're practicing precepts, at least at that level. So if you've got, if it's like just by the back of the pedagogy now, you're throwing through the stream of practice, and what would you do? What good is it to have precepts and all those things? What good is it to have them? Yeah. If you're throwing through any one? You can't possibly do anything about practice. It seems that the precepts and the stream are the same thing.

[31:52]

So why write down the precepts and tell each other about them if, when you have insight, you can't help but practice them anyway? What do you think? Sounds a little bit like Dogen's question, doesn't it? If you're enlightened, why practice? Maybe if you keep reminding yourself and each other of it, it helps you, like, if there's some definition that your intuition is slavish, and you first stage, there might be some way to develop it. It might help you speed up the development of your intuition. Speed it up. Well, Theravada, it looks like once you have this darshana marga, you're safe.

[33:07]

However, other schools don't necessarily say that. So other schools would say, well, you better be careful. You can fall back. Mahayana, particularly in the Mahayana, is quite a bit further than this before they're safe. But anyway, now in this system we're studying right now, they say, yeah, you're okay now. So if you're okay, why not just sort of continue to be okay? Well, you have various problems, don't you, still? That's what we started off with today. So what are the What are the problems now? Now we've had Darshan and Marga. We've had the insight into suffering. We've seen that this, that very, no matter what, no matter what karmic discipline we enter into, no matter what kind of volitional practice we embark upon, it never, it always discontinues forever and there's never any end to it.

[34:22]

Suffering discontinues forever, that's life. When we see that, for a moment. Then, at that moment, we're safe, according to this teaching. We have destroyed certain views, and one of them we destroyed is called, well, we'll just talk in a minute about what those are. Those are sravas, sasravas. Asravas. Asravas. We have dropped some of them. Okay? But your question is, once we've seen them, then why do we have to say anything about the precepts at that point? If they're present anyway, why do we need to talk about them? We still have some problems for some reason. Yet why, if we have those problems and we're sort of doing the best we're just doing what we need to do, why do we have to talk about them? Is that a useful question or a useless question?

[35:28]

Are they there for people who haven't been on any of the stream yet? Is that maybe why they're on the list? Okay, so there's a number of possibilities. One possibility is they're to help the person who has detained Darshanamaja because that person still has various of these... asravas present still, okay? He needs them still. And you say, well, yes, he needs them, but my question is, he needs them, but he's already got them, so what's the problem? The other such a possibility is that they're not for that person so much, or maybe for that person, but they're also for people that haven't had darshana-mārga yet. One of the sastravas that's dropped from having darshana-mārga is conventional morality. The usual, no, sila, attachment to sila, attachment to the usual rules. So maybe a person's practicing these rules before they have darsana marga sometimes.

[36:38]

So maybe they should, one should practice these rules even before you have insight. To practice these rules before you have insight somehow gives you insight into the fact that you must follow them. or you have no choice but to follow them. So being free of the conventional idea of morality is to see that you have no choice. That's just what's happening. The conventional idea of morality is don't do this, [...] and so on. You drop that idea that you don't do it, and you change to a position of these are the dharmas that are present at the moment that you see what truth is. That clarity of mind is to see that, you know, is to see right livelihood, is to see right speech, is to be right speech, is to be right act, is to be right thought.

[37:44]

That is clarity of mind. That is seeing the truth. To see the truth is, once you see the truth, you stop lying. you stop killing unnecessarily. You stop stealing. Why do you stop? Because it can't happen, because that's what it shows. It shows that you can't steal something because that's the way things happen. You don't steal. So that's one way to look at dropping the conventional idea of morality, if you realize it's not an idea, it's just a fact, and you have no choice. So you continue to practice these, Because now you continue, now at this point, you continue to practice them because you want other people to see. But by practicing them, eventually they'll see it. That sounds like, once again, it sounds really funny, but anyway, maybe that's why you're doing it. But maybe it's the same answer that Dogen got, is that

[38:49]

You talk about them because just as you're describing that there's perception, just as you're describing that there's feeling, just as you're describing that there's impulses, just as you describe that there's contact, you describe that there are these precepts. They are the expression of a function of your body and mind and speech that happens in that state. And you don't have any more reason to talk about the precepts than you do when you talk about feeling or impulses or consciousness. If you're asked, why talk about the precepts if you can't do anything but do them, it's the same question as saying, why talk about the Dattus or the Atmas or the Skandhas or the Samskaras or the Vedanas or the so on. It's the same question. Why continue to talk about the teaching that got you there if now you don't need it anymore. But do they need it anymore?

[39:56]

Don't they continue to do meditation on what they've seen? They still have business to take care of. And the way they take care of it is to review They continued to review what they saw before, and what did they see? They saw the dhammas. They saw how the dhammas work. And that seeing now, the seeing of the dhamma is called, on top of that, is right speech, right action, right livelihood, right thought. Before, actually, although we were following the precepts, we weren't doing it right. And you weren't following precepts, actually. You were just conventionally following. Now you're actually doing it. So now you're in the situation you review. Total function of body and mind includes this apparently superficial function of body and mind, where you can actually see the gross body following these rules.

[40:59]

Whereas before, you couldn't see anything. You couldn't see the diamonds. And you couldn't see that this is what a diamond really is. Dharmas aren't gross or subtle. They're just liberating agents. So you see how somehow something has shifted now in this discussion. It's different. It's not exactly something has changed. But some encouragement has now come, too, for practice. Before, we were just studying any old state of consciousness. There was no particular encouragement to study them. Now, the study of them is now realized.

[42:01]

The purpose of the study or the good of studying them is now realized. We're warmed up on those other states. So now we're studying the state We're studying the states of studying states. We're looking at the states of practice, which study states. Before we were studying every possible... all various kinds of states. These jhanas, they don't study the dharmas. These worldly dharmas, these worldly jhanas, they're not studying the skandhas, they're not studying the dhaktis, they're not studying the jnanas, they're not studying all these dharmas. Now we've begun to look at our minds when we study the Adhidharma. When you study the Adhidharma, your mind is like this, and your mind has it present in it, right speech, right action, and so on and so forth. Do you want to say something, Vani?

[43:03]

Well, it's all right. We talked about what the difference between what makes me happy and what makes me sad. Now I really need to feel the quality of that. The words are not very beautiful. It's a very substance, but it really doesn't make it. We have done a great work today.

[44:08]

Thanks. in the Bible to the ways in which I have become. And I feel as if I'm going to be re-entering that meditation space. And become the way, the way being always is. That's why we were there.

[45:13]

We were in clear respect. That was just something that came up when we were saying that. This may be, you know, all just some kind of self-justification system, too, Buddhists have created to encourage other Buddhists. Oh, that's so good. Oh, that's so good. It will soon be standardized that we will since we are vaccinated against COVID-19.

[46:15]

It's pretty important that we are vaccinated against COVID-19. I just want to try not to fall back and be with my spirit. That's not my spirit. Is that something you can do for me? At least it's not bad.

[47:16]

I was trying to follow that up. I can't believe it. I can't believe it. I can't believe it. Sorry, what does it mean? Is there someone in this room who doesn't experience comically unholstering states or who doesn't feel like they are comically holstering states even? In the sense of actually from fresh making a decision to create some create something, and their decision in some cases is wholesome, in some cases unwholesome.

[48:26]

Or perhaps it is the case that after having ordination, that doesn't happen anymore, that the ordination ceremony has some power that eliminates that forever. Have we had an insight in the past? Have we seen the person of the truth? You can say, yes, I think I have, a number of times. But then I also feel that I experience unwholesome states or wholesome states. And maybe there's various... I can make some... some movements to try to make that not... I could maybe say, well, that's not really a comically unwholesome state, but to be talkative. I could say, oh, okay.

[49:36]

But maybe not. I could also say... that... If you take ordination, you say, if you take ordination, the effects of that, either not at that moment or eventually, are such that you are a Buddhist. And that can say something like, if after ordination you experience an unwholesome state, you may think it's unwholesome. But is it really unwholesome? If you're experiencing something, which you say, well, this is anger or something, and yet you know that you can never stop studying that state the rest of your life, or studying such states. If you know you'll never just be angry instead of, you know, just sort of be controlled by that.

[50:43]

but your mind is always now, for the rest of your life, into studying this anger and studying this jealousy. Because of your ordination, maybe, or even if you're unordained, because of some decision you've made somewhere along the way in this practice at Zen Center, you know that regardless of... even though it seems very unwholesome, that now you're quite sure Studying this material, studying these psychological events, these functions of your mind, is your business. In the midst of sitting in Manasaflu, following your breath, working in the field, in the kitchen, whatever, this is your practice, this is your life, this is what you work with, this is what you're trying to refine and become familiar with. Is then, is it an awesome state then? is it an unwholesome state at the time it happens or at the time later when you look back on it and say what happened or when you now are looking and saying am I really a Buddhist because I have such experiences or next week now that you've thought about it and maybe you found out for hours I will devote myself to the study of finding out the nature of my my life and who I am and how I can

[52:06]

how I can fully follow these precepts to the, you know, in their deepest meaning. The next week, you find yourself, what you'd say, now this is, once again, I'm in an unwholesome state, I'm really angry, or I'm really, this is really lust. To say, this is anger. If you're right, it's called, what? It's called pranayama. Isn't that pardon? This is anger. This is... This is lost. This is confusion. Can confusion and... can delusion and pardon co-exist? Well, there's a debate on that. In one sense they say in this book they can't co-exist. There is a kind of discrimination simultaneously with moha present.

[53:17]

And also, as we saw, even after you've had insight, there's still moha. There's still delusion up until the last stage of the path. What does that mean? You're eliminating. getting rid of rafts of delusions and defilements, and yet the last thing that you eliminate is finally ignorance. Or at least you can get around that too, to various ways. But without making any kind of juggling to say this or that, and without me saying, I didn't really say that, you know, that you never go back into a wholesome state, you never go into a wholesome state. I just talked about that. I'm not saying that. You don't need to say that right now. If it says in this book, I can read it to you, but it doesn't say it. It just talks about what these different states are. It doesn't tell you about the dynamics of them. Abhidharma Kosha and some other later books, if you ever study them, you can see they talk about how you can move from one state to another.

[54:20]

Right now we haven't studied that yet. I've told you a few other things, like you go from wholesome state to the group of jhanas. But that's an indication, if I say that, You can't do the preparations for, if you have the mind that can do the preparations for the Rupa jhana meditation, that mind is by definition a wholesome state. You don't have the equipment to do it unless you have a wholesome state of consciousness. Unless you have, we talk of vichara, sukha, piti, and mental pointedness, etc. So that kind of thinking comes back on, this is just us thinking about it now. But the nice thing about the Abhidharma is that

[55:23]

at least at this level too, this level and also the later level. First of all, you're just told, they just break things up for you and then it's up to you from then on. And later on, the things that you've broken up, they tie them all together and show you all the various ways that they can interact. But what it means for practice is always for us to figure out in the midst of studying. And I'm not saying that you all have had darshan and marga. And I'm not saying that some people here have and some haven't. It's for you to figure out what the meaning of this is. And this is not, strictly speaking, our practice, okay? This practice here. We don't necessarily have to even think about this. If it's of any use for you, that's fine. There's various uses we can get out of this. One is for our actual practice. One is to see where our practice comes from. Another is to see where our practice comes from. Another is to realize that other forms of Buddhism are very similar to us, and what are the differences?

[56:28]

So if the Buddha said something and these people sort of interpreted something, well, that's fine. We can interpret from them, too, from what he actually meant based on their interpretation. So I think what he meant was this, Maybe there's one person in this room or two people in this room that have not had darshan in either. I don't know. It sometimes happens in Zen practice that some people have their big realization very late in life. Some people have it very early in practice. If they have it early in practice, then it serves as kind of a big goad If they have it late in practice, it turns, it's, you know, I don't know what it serves them. But for the people who don't have a big enlightenment early in their practice, maybe this is what practice is like.

[57:37]

But they don't have some big event where all of a sudden it's just a big parting of the ways. After that, things can do you. You never have an unwholesome state. Maybe some people don't have that kind of practice, but they have many, many small, repeated, or maybe one very small moment when they had a glimpse, a very teeny, [...] teeny tiny glimpse of truth. Whereas some people get a very big glimpse of the truth, so big, there's a radical difference in them. But no matter how big or how small, maybe just a tiny peek is enough It doesn't have much effect, maybe, on your life, and you seem to continue to experience unwholesome states. But what is an unwholesome state if you're looking at it now, if your eyes are open? So that's for us to think about.

[58:41]

This is just darshanamaya, okay? All these things are supposedly put away with darshanamaya. But still, most of the work is to head. Most of the psychological and most of the emotional work, most of the physical refinement that occurs in Buddhist practice is ahead of the person in the next three stages. So even if it's a big burst, maybe a big insight, still even that person has a lot of work ahead of them, most of the work is ahead of them. If it's a very tiny, tiny thing, still they also have maybe more work. But still most of their work also, like the other people, is way ahead of them. And where does this work? This work is, once again,

[59:28]

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