I will not talk about sex. But there was a couple of little things, not little things exactly, but some points I just wanted to kind of stress. And it has to do with, I mentioned to you before, you know, that He was explaining at a certain point that the six Buddhas before him, that the first three were Buddhas and they taught people, they enlightened people, they set people free by their teaching, but their teaching didn't last long. And part of the reason why their teaching didn't last long was because they didn't have all these different types of teachings. And then he listed, there's 12 different types of teachings. But they didn't have those 12 types of teachings. They just looked at people, assessed them, and gave them the teaching for that person, and then it worked for that person.

[01:06]

And also they didn't give them the rules of training for the disciples and the ways to work with the community. They didn't give those, so their teachings didn't last very long. And the next three Buddhas also enlightened people, but they presented their teaching in these twelve categories and they had these discipline rules, training rules for the monks and community rules. And then Shariputra says, well, blessed one, it is time for us to have these rules then. So the perfected one will decide when it's time. And then he said the times when, he said the situations when it would be time. for example, when the community gets big enough and so on and so forth, than when these various things come up. But basically, he said the time for these rules, when certain conditions arise that will be the conditions for outflows, then I'll give training rules for those problems.

[02:08]

In other words, when a problem arises, I'll give you some kind of precept for it. And if you look at the teachings supposedly that the Buddha gave first of all, which is, you know, what most people are, most of the Buddhists are agreeing was the first teaching, the teaching of setting the Dharma wheel in motion, where he gives the, you know, the teaching of the middle path. And at the end of that teaching, what happens, Max? Kandanya awakens. So Kandinya wakes up after the Buddha gives his talk. So the Buddha gave this teaching, and Konjini wakes up, and then during the next two weeks, the other four guys also wake up.

[03:09]

So within two weeks, all of them are stream-enters, and then within, I guess, about a month, they're all arhats. So, you know, you're working intensely with them for a month. So this is like how good the Buddha, what a good teacher Buddha was, right? But at that time, he didn't give them the, you know, vinaya. There were no rules. But they didn't need any rules, you know. You can imagine that they'd be fooling around with their face. And here at Tazahar, too, you know, when people were like within Sukhiroshi's eyesight, nobody really did much funny stuff. I mean, most of us were like just interested in, you know, paying attention to what he was talking about. We weren't going into the walk-in stuff or whatever. We weren't, like, being mean to each other right under his nose. I mean, not to say we thought of being mean to each other.

[04:10]

Maybe some people had that thought cross somebody's mind, like, what's that person asking that stupid question for, but they didn't say it out loud usually. But I don't think we even... right there, you know? So being with a good teacher... right nearby, usually you don't need any rules. But some people, 50 feet from Suzuki Roshi, they would do amazingly cruel things. And then what he would hear upon him, he said, he did that? Yeah, he did that. Couldn't believe it, because we all looked pretty good when we were around him, actually. So anyway, when Buddha had a community of five people or ten people, he didn't really need any rules. you know, sitting there in the in the environment of such and with us teaching you all this stuff, you know, you don't need rules. But as the community gets bigger and certain things happen, rules start. So, I just want to say that at Zen Center, in the early days, you know, sometimes we didn't need rules.

[05:15]

But as things grew, we need rules. And so, some things were just fine, and then some things turned into a problem, and then when they turned into a problem, we made a policy. So some of you come to Zen Center now, and there's a policy waiting for you, which is set off by the fact of what some people did 30 years ago. There wasn't a policy then. because it was, you know... Also, Zen Center didn't have very many policies before we got Tassajara. People were living all over San Francisco, they went to Zen Center, there weren't very much policies at Zen Center except wash your feet, which didn't apply to that many people until the hippies started coming. What? Anyway... Hear that, Daniel? But, you know, there weren't that many rules at Zen Center until that time, until we got taught Sahara.

[06:16]

But when we lived together, then we started to... Zen Center got much bigger then, and lots of things started happening, you know, that we had to make policies about. So, in some sense, I'm sorry to the people who come to Zen Center now, because we have these policies, six-month rule, blah, blah, blah, you can't have sex with teachers and stuff like that. You can't have sex with students and stuff like that. But there was a time we didn't need these rules because nothing was happening. So when they happened, then we made the rules. So Zen Center is like a case of that, of where there were times when we didn't have these rules and then we learned that we needed them For the community's longevity. Not, in some sense, that's the main reason. And also, you know, support the people's practice. Okay? The other thing I wanted to mention was when Melissa was talking about, you know, how do you relate to, you know, your mate in the community. And I was saying about trying to find some way to treat everybody the same.

[07:19]

And I thought, that's an example of one of the main reasons why we have these, you know, rituals, and particularly like gassho, joining the palms. Now, I feel a little silly telling you this, but, because some of you might think I'm silly. I don't feel so silly about it except to tell you this. That is, for me, when I gassho to somebody, if I, you know, am very close to the person, To me, gassho is a fine greeting. I don't feel like, oh, I'm close to you and this gassho is kind of like, that's not really how I feel about you. If I met the Buddha right now, if Suzuki Roshi is here, I wouldn't necessarily fall on my face on the ground and start crying. I might.

[08:19]

That's another mudra. But anyway, that's another ritual. It's called falling on the ground and kissing the teacher's feet. But, you know, I wouldn't necessarily yell at him or something like that. Hey, Suzuki Raiji, great to see you. Some people might, you know, that's fine. But, you know, I might actually go like this. I might put my hands together and greet him. And, you know, he might greet me that way too. And it wouldn't be like, kind of like, well, I don't want to show anybody that I love Reb, so I'm going to gassho, so they aren't jealous, because really I would like to kiss him. I don't think so. I think he liked the gassho to me. I think he really felt this is a way he could say, I love you, that you're really important, my student, to me. So, you know, he would like gassho to us, you know, like, thank you very much, you know. That was like not a second class, a second rate expression of his love to us. And I feel that way too. When I bow to you, and I love you, I don't feel like, well, that's not really showing my love.

[09:23]

I don't feel that way. I feel like it is. Now, if I don't love you so much, then I got to show you too. But I feel like that doesn't show that I don't love you very much. It means that I'm giving you the same respect that I give you a lot. And if I'm really disgusted with you, I bow to you too. So that form is applicable to your worst enemy and your most beloved friend and people that you feel somewhat neutral about. So that form It works. Then you treat everybody the same. You treat everybody with respect, but you don't demean even the most important person, even your dearest teacher or dearest lover. You don't demean them by the same thing that you can do to the person you have the most trouble with at Tassajara. And that's why it's very important when you're having trouble with somebody here, he's giving you a hard time, or you're giving somebody a hard time, or you're really having trouble with somebody, that you don't stop doing the form that you bow to them to when you pass them.

[10:30]

You don't feel like going, hi. It really would be phony, you know. You really feel like going, something else, you know. But you don't do that. You do this. You do this ritual, which means I respect you anyway. It means I treat you the same as I treat the very best. I give you the very best. Now, you know that if you asked me if I was having trouble with you, you know that I would say, well, yes, I am. You know I'm having a problem with you. Or you think I do, and you're right. but I'm going to bow to you too. So this is part of the thing about the rituals, make it so that we make everybody the same, even though we don't feel the same about everybody. That way, even though I'm super in love with this person today, and this person I'm being challenged by, like this person, I sort of like, do you really appreciate this person?

[11:33]

I'm trying, but I'm having difficulty. Do you really see this person has lots of good qualities? Well, I'm trying. Do you see that this person has good qualities? Oh, yeah. They're fantastic. No problem. But you don't give them a really nice gassho, and this person is kind of like, hmm. You put all your energy into both, you give both of them your very best. You stop, you know. It isn't like, you know, yeah, I like you. For somebody that you really like, you really stop. You know, this, here I am, I'm going to really be, I'm going to give you my gusho, here it is. I love you. And the other people are kind of like, just a moment. You aren't worth stopping for. Some days, even the people we love, I love you, but I'm in a hurry, right? I mean, I love you, but really, I'm in a hurry, and I don't have time to stop for you. So even people you like, sometimes you have trouble stopping for, don't you? So imagine if you stopped for the people that you care about, and really stop and give it to them.

[12:42]

Give them that, I'm stopping my progress here to the laundry area or whatever, you know? To give you my full bow. And wouldn't that really be a nice thing to do for somebody you really like? You like them, but maybe later I'll show you. But no, right now. You may never see them. Give it to them. Give them the best that you can. The best God show. The best presence you can give them. Give it to them. And then do the same with somebody who you're having a problem with. Who you're having a problem with. even though you're busy, you would like to stop and actually do something to him. Even though you're busy, you would have time to give him a little pop. But instead of giving me a pop, give him this thing, give him this form, which is not saying, oh, I think you're swell. It's saying, I'm doing this. Which doesn't mean I love you. It means I'm practicing.

[13:44]

So that's how you can treat your lover and your pal, and your spouse, and your teacher, and you have difficulty with the same, these forms. Now, of course, some situations aren't the same. If you're married to somebody, you don't, you get in bed with them, you know, at night, that's not the same, you treat everybody. But before you go to bed and you gashota them, that's the same as you gashota everybody else, you know. a lousy gassho before you go to bed. So this is the forms, the regulations, and the ceremonies of our practice. The ceremonies are ways that we can treat everybody the same, even though we don't feel the same about everybody. Everybody like we would treat Suzuki Roshi or Buddha. And the other thing is we have these regulations because of problems that have arisen to protect the community.

[14:50]

And if we didn't, if we hadn't had any of these problems, we don't like say, okay, we're going to have Buddhism, let's have these regulations. No. We don't need the regulations unless there's a problem. And if time went on for a very long time and there was, you know, nothing ever happened, we'd probably, somebody would overlook writing them down and they'd drift into oblivion. You know? some of these rules would get washed away. They wouldn't apply anymore. For example, when people first started Tassajara, there weren't so many rules. There wasn't a six-month rule. There wasn't even a six-second rule. Suzuki Rishi had no idea, you know, that things would happen that fast. So gradually they started... Also, there was no requirement to come to Tassajara. Gradually they made requirements. They had to practice six months before you could come here. And so on. So gradually the rules grew up. But anyway, at first there were no rules and people said, people said, make it stricter here, give us some rules.

[15:56]

He said, okay, put the brooms with the head up. That was the rule. And we still do that. But if we don't have brooms anymore, that rule will go into disuse. If we could... If we have those, you know, those leaf blowers. Can you imagine, like, 50 leaf blowers during soji? Anyway, certain rules maybe won't apply anymore if there's no problems for 5, 10 years. And that'd be easier if we have a shorter list of rules. If everybody is always gassho-ing to everybody, we don't have to have a rule to say gassho all the time. Some tanto, some eno. We'll look at this list and say, we don't have to say that. For the Sesshin admonitions, you don't have to say that. They do that already. Just knock it off the list. Make it shorter. You don't have to tell them this. You don't have to tell them that. They know this. So that's just something about how...

[16:59]

these regulations and ceremonies. Okay? Yes? Say again? What about it? Well, I don't think there is... I never heard Suzuki Roshi say, do not look at the person. Or look at the person. So that's not That's not part of the instruction, strictly speaking, that I've heard. And as I maybe mentioned, I think I did say at this practice period, that story about when I first met him, over at Sokoji, we used to leave through his office. He had a little office behind the meditation hall. And he would leave first and he would be in his office and we would go out through his office. Each person would gassho to him and bow. and leave. So you'd go into his office and then go out to the left down the hall and out.

[18:05]

So he did that, and Zen Center was small enough, so that didn't take very long. And he tried it at Page Street for a while, but Page Street got a little big and he stopped. But when I found him after service there, I looked at him, and he looked at me, and then he looked down. So I thought, well, maybe I wasn't supposed to look at him, or maybe he was supposed to look at me and I wasn't supposed to look. And I thought, well, maybe I made a mistake, or I thought, well, maybe I didn't make a mistake, or maybe he likes me, or maybe he doesn't. And I thought, you know, I really have no idea what happened. And I thought, that's great, that I was really thinking about what happened, and yet I'm pretty sure I'll never be able to figure out. And even if he told me, I wouldn't know. And I really enjoyed his situation. So I guess I would say, for now, since he didn't give a rule about that, I would say, let's not have a rule.

[19:07]

So if I look at you and you look down, I don't know what's going on. If I look at you and you don't look down, I don't know what's going on. If we both, neither one of us look at each other, we don't know what's going on. But we both know we're doing this form to each other. We both, we notice that we're doing it. And if I bow to you and you... So I would say let's not make, I don't think we need a policy about that, myself. Okay? Yes. We just want to say before you speak, so anyway, you can see I'm really recommending that form, that ritual, that mudra. This is a mudra. I recommend that mudra. It's a really great mudra. The more you do it, the more useful it will be to you. The more people you do it to, the more you find out it harmonizes your relationships because you're treating the people you have trouble with the way you treat the person who you most respect because this is a nice way to treat somebody you really respect.

[20:08]

When people bow to me like that, I feel, that's really nice. When I bow to people like that, I say, I really feel like I'm expressing my respect. So if you do that with everybody, you're really... or any of your problems with people to a great extent. So I really recommend it. However, I would say this summer, you know, a lot of times you're doing work and it's, you know, like, Alyssa was walking by me today and she was carrying, like, her lunch in both hands, you know, and so anyway, it's a good guy show, really. One time a guy was, you know, who just hated to gassho. Well, he didn't hate to gassho, he just says, during practice period I'll gassho, but I won't gassho in the summer. So then in the summer one time he was walking by me and he had his laundry and he dropped his laundry in the dirt and gasshoed. She sort of threw it down and gasshoed. Some of you know him. It was clean laundry.

[21:08]

But anyway, I'm just saying that if you're carrying stuff, I think I would recommend that rather than try to do a, you know, I think just if you stop, and with your stuff you have this bow, that's pretty nice. If your hands are free, then you can join your palms. But I really hope you do that this summer. I think it really will help your practice and help everybody else's. Yes? One of the things that you told me the most when you asked about it, Yes. Yes. Yeah. No, I didn't... Let me say it in private, okay?

[22:15]

You may be willing to have sexual intercourse with your spouse, but that doesn't mean you're willing to have sexual intercourse with everybody, because it might not be appropriate with everybody. Okay? For example, with children, it's highly unlikely that it would be appropriate. But it might be appropriate with your spouse. So I'm not saying that everything you would do in private, you would do in private with everybody. But what I would say is that everything you do in private, you should think about everybody when you do it. So if I would have sexual intercourse with my spouse, I should think about you while I'm doing it. and Daniel, and Jane, and Ingen, everybody. In other words, I think about everybody. This is not just, you know, something that only concerns us. And that's part of the great respect for everything you do, is that you're doing everything.

[23:20]

And if you think other people wouldn't appreciate that, then you should find a way that they would. But most people do feel fine about people who are married having sexual intercourse with each other. You know. Right. And do you want me to do it on your belly now? I'm happy to do it if everybody wants me to, but we're not supposed to be talking... You know, but that's sort of the joke. Anyway, I think I'm pretty much ready to do farting noises on anybody's tummy in public. I don't have any problem with doing that to you or anybody. In public or private, but except that private might be understood as private.

[24:27]

So I would make it public. So sometimes people say to me in Doksan, you know, they say, can I give you a hug? And sometimes I say, no, I think we should go out. If you want to hug me, we should do it out in public. So I don't mind everybody. But if I'm hugging people in private, it's kind of confusing, I think, to people. So basically, I'm literally not kidding. I wouldn't mind making that sound on your tummy in public. I think if everybody's watching, everybody can see that I was just moving my tummy. There's no problem. You know? Is it? Is it any problem? I mean, we could ask everybody, say, does anybody have a problem with this? And somebody might say, yeah, I do. I just don't want to go, I want to talk about something else. And we might say, okay, let's pass on it then. It's not that important, but I'm just saying, if everybody would have no problem, because I don't think it's going to cause much, I think the problem of being afraid to do it would be probably more of a problem.

[25:28]

but I probably will be doing that a few more times on my grandson, because he really likes it. Yeah, he just loves it. I did too when I was a kid. And it's not that bad to do it to the kids either. Now, of course, it can go too far, I suppose, but anyway. You've got to be sensitive if the kids had enough. So that's the important thing. When children get overstimulated, sometimes you've got to, like, cool it, because they can get overstimulated and they want a break, so they have to stop. You know what I mean? I told you about that last few years, about the interfacial intensity between the caregiver and the child. It's necessary that, you know, you have this interfacial intensity of you look at the baby, smile at the baby, and the baby looks back at you, and when the baby looks back at you, you're kind of excited, and the baby sees how excited you are, and the baby gets more excited, and you see him... You're getting more and more excited, the baby gets more and more pleasure, and then finally they just conk out.

[26:34]

They have enough and they turn away because they learn how to control the intensity of the stimulation by turning away. So it is possible to keep pushing it on the child and not let it get away, and that's hard on them. So you have to be careful of this. That's why I say you should have this uncle thing. So if I was doing that thing on your tummy, you should say, Uncle, Uncle Reb, stop. I'm not quite sure, but it's sort of this gift-giving idea, and Picasso, and this also, which still seems to be a contradiction on how there is this sort of each case's specificness. I'm often feeling it, though, like the words, I love you, like that. and just really wishing I could convey the way I felt.

[27:35]

Yeah. And it's sort of impossible. And I don't know, I'm just always trying to find sort of spontaneous, not trying to find, but allowing to arise the spontaneous response to what's going on. And I'm just curious about that in relationship to a form like and that you're saying that those five things that are most difficult to be attended to, we love more deeply. Yeah. So do you really want to show, somehow give somebody the gift of letting them know how deeply affectionate you feel for people? Well, I'm not saying... that you have to gassho to everybody every time you see them. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that treating everybody, giving everybody that gift, spreading that gift around, is very good, I think. But it doesn't mean that every time you meet somebody that you really have a strong, positive feeling about, that you do that every single time.

[28:44]

And it doesn't mean that somebody you're having difficulty with, you do it every single time. I'm just saying that if you do it to both, to the full range of people, I'm saying it harmonizes your relationships and it's great when you're not supposed to be talking about it. But it doesn't mean that you can't do all kinds of other things, too. Like you can't, like you guys show and then you say, excuse me, may I say something to you? And they say, yes. And you say, I just want this other thing, you know. You can do that too." Which maybe was totally spontaneous. And it happened in the situation where you were before you joined your palms and bowed to them. You joined your palms and bowed to them, and when you finished, you had something to say. It might be reasonable that as you're approaching them before you gassho, you want to say something to them.

[29:47]

But in fact, for me, it might feel more natural to gassho first as a kind of respectful introduction to this other thing. But in your case, it might be that you want to do this other thing before you gassho. It's possible. But the gassho, kind of like, it's a kind of harmonizing thing, it's a kind of equalizing thing, where both parties can meet in that way on sort of equal basis, if they know how to do the practice, and then you're kind of attuned to each other, and then you can go deeper and say, now that we've both stopped here, do you have some more time? If you go up to somebody with some big message Like you suddenly, you're walking down the road here and suddenly you just feel this tremendously strong appreciation, maybe. And you go up to the person to dump it on them, it's not very respectful. They may not be up for this thing, even though what you have to give them is something which they actually would like to hear under some circumstances.

[30:51]

The circumstances may be that they actually don't have the readiness for this big event that you're up for. So, by gassho-ing first, you first of all find out, do they have time for a gassho? And if they do, then you can check, do you have a moment? You know, I have something I want to say to you. And they might say, well, actually, could it be later? And, you know, in a sense, what you have to say to them is something that they'd like to hear at some point. And you say, well, when? And they say, well, how about this afternoon at four o'clock? Then you get together and say hi, and then they have some space, you know, to receive this kind of big gift, because if you tell somebody something like that, they might want to say something. Like, thank you very much, you know, I really appreciate you telling me that. You know, it's very important to me. Our relationship is very important to me, too. And this can all be very spontaneous, and you can spontaneously be disrespectful of someone, too. But actually, I think when you're truly spontaneous, which it isn't just spontaneous habit,

[31:56]

But spontaneity, which takes into account the whole situation, then if you take into account the whole situation, your spontaneity includes checking with the other person to see if they're up for your spontaneity. Ready for a little spontaneity? And say, well, actually, I'd spontaneously like to tell you no. Say, okay, well, I could spontaneously wait. Because I'm like Mr. Spontaneous, and I can be spontaneous later, too. You know, I'm like, I'm ready. My name's Sueko. Just let me know. I'll be there. So, okay? You're welcome. Thank you. One of the things that seems kind of miraculous or subtle, you might say, about living in a training-type community.

[32:59]

all the various forms of communication that there are. And first of all, during periods when we're silent, and if you spend that time in silence, then eventually it's just amazing how many different other ways that there are besides language. And also, discovering throughout whatever it is we may be doing, that there are so many different types of intimacy that are possible, and so many different types of friendships. It's relatively safe, or it feels relatively safer to explore in a place like this than it would, you know, like where we didn't have guidelines. And so, you know, I mean, it's so exurgist. To open the doors, do you think?

[34:02]

Would that be okay? To open the doors? Yes. I want to experience that. When I was in India, I stayed in one town for a long time. There were these high school boys. They used to kind of make fun of me when I would walk around. And I felt like there was a tremendous amount of karma meeting the fact that I was white and had a lot of money, juggling everything, meeting these boys. So there'd be this kind of karmic event that would happen, and I would always say, Namaste to them, and then put my hand to their shoulder. And at that moment, their whole body language would change, and the whole thing would be diffused. And it's very... It would occur just by manifesting that form.

[35:05]

And it always is done when we get it all done. Wow. Big gosh, no doubt. Yeah, they would say namaste, which some people translate as, I see the God in you. Suniko was addressing one direction. Some of us will be leaving in a few weeks. We've discussed a lot of things here. It's kind of like a very safe environment. If one has a feeling... I don't want to talk. I don't want to say anything. Should I trust that?

[36:08]

Let's see. If you said, if I have a feeling that I don't want to talk... Uh-huh. So, anyway, you have a feeling, some of you might have a feeling like you didn't want to talk about it, and you wonder if you can trust the feeling. Trust the feeling. I wouldn't trust the feeling, I would trust the feeling, you know, honor that this is happening. That's the first thing to do. That's your subjective sense is, I feel like I don't want to talk about this, I have some resistance to this. Now, we've got that. Now what's next? Well, should you tell him that you have resistance to talking about it? You might say, well, actually I have resistance to telling him that I have resistance too. Maybe.

[37:10]

Okay. Now do I have resistance saying, could you please excuse me? I have to go. I mean, I would like to leave right now because I'm feeling like I've been overcome by a tremendous conflict. Could you excuse me? So you don't have to talk about Tazahar. You don't want to talk about Tazahar. And then you can decide whether you're just going to run away or whether you're going to try to excuse yourself first. excuse yourself, say, would you please excuse me, I want to leave because I don't want to, I don't even want to talk to you about this. Or you could just say namaste and go. But then you think, well, that might hurt their feelings.

[38:13]

So what can you do that would be the equivalent of that? Of saying, you know, I respect you, but I actually, I do not want to get into it right now. Just say that? Yeah. But I'm just saying, if you don't even want to say that, then, but I think that would be, I think it would be okay to just say, I do not, excuse me, but I do not want to get into it right now. I would feel okay if you said that to me if I hadn't seen you for a while and I said, well, how have you been? And you said, you know, please excuse me, but I don't want to talk about it now. I think I would say, I think I would say, okay. Matter of fact, I'd probably say, thanks for telling me the truth. Or I might say, is that the truth? You say, yes. I say, thank you. I personally do not like it when people do what they think I want that's not them.

[39:17]

Even though I might not like but I really appreciate that much more. So I may want to talk to you about something and you say I don't want to but I'd rather have that than you be talking to me and not telling me you don't want to and going ahead with it without telling me you didn't want to. Does that make sense? People might be that way. Okay? Does that make sense? It takes a little bit of courage to do that, or maybe a lot. It takes either a little or a lot, or a medium amount. But it takes some courage, I think. That's kind of being honest. Anything else coming up tonight? Anybody want to say anything?

[40:28]

Yes? I wanted to ask you about the evening service when we have a personal day and we chant, we gave a sweet due. In the front, with your back to the altar, you're doing this thing. Yeah. What's that about? It's for the spirits. And there's like a snack of some kind on the altar? It's just... What is that? Is it some implements? The reason why I turn is because usually, not everybody does that, but usually during the spirit offering ceremony, we usually have the altar on the other end of the zendo. You know, we put it at the other end. Like on Sakaki? Yeah, so, like making this, it's, you know, I'm giving the, I'm not doing the food offering to the Buddhas, I'm doing it to the spirits, and I'm not giving the precepts and arousing the bodhi mind of the Buddha, I'm doing it for the precepts.

[41:33]

I mean, I'm doing it for the spirits. So I turned in, sort of, with the Buddha, not with the Buddhas, giving the precepts and the bodhi mind to the spirits. So I just feel more comfortable than doing it at the Buddha. And that's a mudra I'm doing under my robe with that. I feed them and then I encourage the bodhi mind and give them precepts. That's what I'm doing. And I turn that way because, you know, they're all over the place, but I just sort of feel more comfortable doing it that way rather than towards the Buddha. So, you know, I could forget about the Buddha being there, too, and just sort of, they're all over the place, right? But in the spirit of Segakya, I turn the other way in that ceremony. Does that make sense? Pardon?

[42:36]

To turn the other way? No. Yeah. when he was he didn't teach us that ceremony we started that ceremony after he had been gone about I don't know maybe three or four years then we started to do the ceremony he may have he did that ceremony to do it one of the things he didn't have time to teach us too bad that would have been nice yes How do you feel about this machine, about talking about this subject, if it felt to be a model machine that you could use? And if the second part is, if it would be all right to, like, use copies of the kits, people who were using the machine? Like, does it feel, like, more private than having a serving box?

[43:38]

Well, in a sense, I appear to be coming into rooms and adopting the form of being a teacher who is like teaching something. But I don't think that's really what's important. I think, you know, that's sort of from the point of view of, I'm the subject, you know, you're the object, I'm giving teachings over there to you, I'm conveying teachings to you. I don't think that's really what Zen's about. So, for me, the topic of this session, the way the lectures went and stuff like that, it may have seemed like a different topic, like, in some sense, information might have been different.

[44:49]

But to me, that's not the teaching. The teaching is not teaching something from here over to there. Or, you know, the teaching is not located over here and then there. There. So if the topic is this, or if the topic is Zen stories or some sutra or ordinary sexual life or monastic sexual life or the difference between celibacy, if that's the topic, it's not that topic being brought up by me and sending it out to you. To me, the continuity is the actuality of communication is what really it's all about. That's the actual teaching, the actual sashin. And in that sense, I really like the sashin because I felt like what we were doing during that time

[45:51]

To me, the continuity is the actual application is what really it's all about. That's the actual teaching. That's the actual sashin. In that sense, I really like the sashin because I felt like what we were doing during that time was in harmony with With your sitting and with the flowers and with the river and with the pollen and with the birds, I felt that the energy of the valley was enacted in our sashi. We weren't trying to do this thing, you know, I'm going to do this thing, and then try to protect myself from everything else that's going on. So, maybe there was a little bit more harmony in the Sesshin with the total environment than sometimes there is. But I don't... I would ask you, you know, how was the Sesshin for you?

[46:57]

Was it more or less in harmony than usual? In terms of your experience of being present with what's happening, was there a difference? For me, it was kind of normal. The energy of the valley was very intense, but it's just a question of being with that. So it seems like we were with that. Does that make sense to you, what I'm talking about? Well, you know, we could give a compliment to whoever said that by saying they don't want to, you know, they don't want, they want, maybe they want whatever happens tonight to be about what's happening tonight and not a carryover from before.

[48:08]

You know, if sex comes up, fine, but let's not, like, bring it in the room, just because, you know, we think we should, because it's really important. Or we want completion. Or we want completion, right. Thank you. What did you say to her?

[49:14]

Viste? Did she see it? And she saw it? Viste? Buddha is our actual relationship. Sounds like a drum is going. Is it the sound of our drumming? The unique

[50:15]

breeze of reality. Can you feel it? Constantly working her loom and shuttle. The mother principle incorporating the patterns of spring into the ancient brocade. The actual relationship, moment by moment. It's a new thread here today, incorporated into the ancient brocade. So, this sashin is a thread. Each day we incorporated another day of sashin into the ancient thread of the ancient brocade of Zen practice. Maybe a A little unique little thread going through here. Two new threads with a big tapestry.

[51:23]

And you got to be it. Congratulations. You are now history. That's my vow. I'm still in. Yeah. So Fred, what? Does it fit you better? Does it fit better to you? Do you have a preference at all? Do I have a preference? What's my vow? Do you have a preference? What's my vow? What's my vow?

[52:28]

You know my vow, don't you? Yeah. What is it? Your form. What else? To answer any questions. What else? About preferences, what's my problem? Not to have them. No, to give them up. To give them up. Before giving up the preferences. Anyway, it's really, it doesn't matter whether I have preferences or not. If you want to check on my preferences, you're wasting your time. What you should check on is, am I letting go of them? Call me late to dinner and see what I do. So if you want to test me, just ask me, am I holding my preferences? And I'll check. But, you know, if preferences run through my mind, it's not really that important to me.

[53:35]

Or to you, right? It shouldn't be, I would say. The question is, do I That's where I'm at. I'm at my volume, not my... I'm not sort of like, am I happy, am I feeling good today, am I feeling bad today? The question is, am I into letting go of how I feel today? That's... My happiness is not being happy. My happiness is not being sad. My happiness is to relax along sadness and happiness. Because even when I'm happy, somebody else is sad. And if I'm attached to my happiness, then I'm unhappy because, you know, I'm afraid of them, the sad guy. So, my vow is to relax around my preferences, or any preferences, and also to relax around your preferences, if any arise in you. And also to relax around, if you're not relaxed around your preferences. That's my practice. And that's where we're going, that's where my life with you is.

[54:41]

And if I get off that, you're welcome to check to see if I'm off it. You're also welcome to ask me what my preferences are, but I'm not going to get into it. But that's not my preference, not to get into it. I'm not going to. And because it's not my preference, I'm not going to. Because it's not not my preference, I'm not going to. It's just not my life. It's not yours either. Or anybody's. It's just death, actually, is what it is. Getting into your preferences. It's death. Yes? Was it a question, she's, she's, she's, but was, should she do that or should she just speak for herself?

[55:43]

It kind of comes out the same. Is it a question about form? Form or teaching, is there, is there teaching, do you ask to be called something that you have? I've been busy for weeks, why haven't you done it? Please call him attention, Roshi, please. Oh, please. That's my whole life. That's what I came here for. Pardon? We will? No, we won't. Well, because you have no preference. I know you do. I'm just kidding. But what I mean is that you have no attachment to your preferences.

[56:50]

No, you're not. Oh, you are attached to your preferences. In terms of numbers, you win. Definitely. Oh, yes. Because, like in China, you know, there's more than a... China and India together, there are two billion people there on your side. But I have Suzuki Roshi on my side. What? He could digest it. He could digest it. It's just that he had trouble chewing it enough. But anyway, back to Kathy's thing about is it a question of teaching, you know? So I would say that I think if there's some aspect of teaching you want to bring up there, please bring it up. Was there some aspect of teaching that you wanted to bring up in relationship to this?

[57:51]

Safer? If what felt safer? Does it feel safer? It feels safer to be called Reb, by far. That's much safer. Reb's safe. For me, it's safe. But, you know, I think Reb's a lot safer. It's almost as safe as Harold. Do I want to share? Okay. In terms of talking about setting up containers, I was thinking of this story of where when Buddha Buddha didn't have a personal attendant, I guess, according to this story, Buddha didn't have a attendant for the first 20 years of his teaching career, didn't have a personal attendant.

[59:12]

And then I guess he was thinking that maybe he would be good to have one. So a lot of the disciples offered to be the attendant, and he didn't accept. So it probably at the beginning of the sutra, because that's at the beginning of the sutra. But anyway, so I don't know how it came about, but anyway, people suggested to Ananda that he be the Buddha's attended, and Ananda said, well, I'm not going to go suggest myself, but if the Buddha asks me, you know, I'll do it, probably. But then Ananda had eight requirements, or eight kind of points that he wanted to have agreed upon before he did it.

[60:14]

So I thought that's an example of where he created a container for his relationship with his relationship as attendant. And we have a little file here, you know, like a Jisya file, and it has forms that the Jisya can follow. And you can read, if you're going to be a Jisya, you can read them, and I guess you can see if you feel like you want to follow those forms. So there's a connection there for the relationship. And Ananda had set eight requirements that he laid out for the Buddha. He told the Buddha, can you imagine? telling Shakyamuni, saying, would you want to be my attendant? I say, yes, but I would have to agree on these eight points. Isn't it? Say, yes, I'll be your attendant, but you've got to agree to these eight points. And, huh? What? Yeah, that would be good. Well, I don't know. I don't, I don't, I don't, they're pretty tough for, actually, they're pretty tough.

[61:20]

They're particularly tough for the teacher. Yeah, so that's why I don't think they should be in there. But they could be in there, but I just don't think I would agree to them. I mean, if one of you was Ananda, I might agree. The ones for the teacher, which are kind of hard to agree to, are... Basically all the first four were ways of Ananda making sure that he didn't get any personal material gain from being the Buddha's attendant. That's what the first four were. The first four were all basically different versions of Ananda wanting to make sure that Ananda didn't get any material benefits from being the Buddha's attendant. So like the Buddha would go someplace And people would treat him really nicely. And so a lot of that can spill over to the attendant, right? And Ananda didn't want any of that. He had a little bit better housing than most people.

[62:25]

Ananda didn't want to be able to share that really good housing. So the first four were about Ananda trying to protect himself from getting this extra benefit from doing the job. The next four were things where Ananda wanted to make sure the Buddha would agree to certain things that he would do. And they were... If Ananda invited somebody to come, the Buddha had to accept... ...place where Nanda accepted the invitation. So, like, if you were the Jisha and the Doan Ryo would invite me to a meeting and you accepted, then I would have to go. So we'd have to talk about you accepting. I might say, well, don't accept without talking to me. If once you say, well, let me just check, I'm not going to accept yet, but I'll go and you can talk to me and say, okay, and then you go back and accept.

[63:29]

then I have to go to the thing. That I would do. The next one is that the Buddha should, the Sananda should be permitted to bring to the Buddha at any time a devotee coming from far away. So that would be a tough one, that if somebody came from far away, well, I guess it would probably be okay. Again, if it was experienced Jesus, whether or not, in the middle of the night, for example, or whatever, I don't know, in the middle of a, I don't know what, in the middle of a ceremony, if somebody came from far away, the attendant thought that they should see the teacher, that the attendant would bring it, and the teacher would have to see the person. But I don't know how to do that. And the next one was that you should be permitted to place before the Buddha any problem as soon as it arose.

[64:31]

And that's not so bad. I think that's kind of good. I kind of like that one. To wait. That make sense? That would be a problem with Ananda, but it would also be some problem in the community that they could bring it right away. And the other one, which is really neat, I think, is that Buddha gave any teachings when Ananda wasn't present that he would give the teachings again to Ananda. Well, especially since Ananda was memorizing them, right? So, all the teachings that Buddha gave before Ananda came, he would give again. And then at that time he went to see you know, to the potter's shed and gave that talk to Pukasati. Then when he came back to Ananda, he would give that talk to Ananda. And Ananda could remember it. So Ananda was stockpiling all the teachings. So that was good too. And I think that, so those were Ananda's requirements for the relationship.

[65:41]

Even with the Buddha, you build a container, you make an agreement, and then the Buddha, of course, he might have said some things to Ananda, but I don't know, I didn't hear about that side of the story. I shouldn't say I didn't hear about that side of the story, because every time the Buddha gave a talk, that was part of the story. And he was doing that. And there were many other cases where you could see he was telling Ananda to do various things. Like when he was sick and he was dying, he said to Ananda some stuff and Ananda wouldn't do it. And then he had to say it quite a few times to get Ananda to do it. But anyway, they finally agreed. Ananda, get me some water, Ananda. Get me some water. I don't think it's good for you to have water. Get me some water. Yes. Yeah.

[66:47]

It could be seen that way. Maybe that's part of what Mark was doing, and that's part of what you were talking about. I don't know. And also, I think part of building a container is to get straight what our vows are. So, in other words, if you're checking with me about the container, if you're checking with me about whether you can ask me about, you know, my preferences... If you want to have a relationship with me and you say, can I ask you about your preferences? I might say, I'm not agreeing to do that. I'm not going to sit here all day and have you ask me about my preferences. That kind of tea. Do you like this kind of movie? Do you like that kind of food? I might say, you know, Lance, I don't want to talk about it. I'm not going to spend my time talking to you about my preferences, but I will tell you my basic principle on preferences.

[67:53]

So that we can work, because that's the main, that's the practice. I'll tell you what my practices are, but I'm not going to spend much time on my preferences. And actually I don't want to hear about yours either, sweetheart. So if you want somebody, if you want to sit down and tell somebody your preference, I would say find somebody who wants to do that. But I don't want to. I'm not agreeing to do that. Now somebody says, please listen to my preferences. I say, okay, get on the informal list. It's not doksan for you to tell me your preferences. For me, I'm not going to sit there for that informal doksan. Doksan, I want to talk about the practice. How do we deal with preferences? To me, preferences are just human delusion. That's all they are. important opportunities for renunciation. So let's talk about renunciation of the preferences. So in that sense we can say, well, how do I renounce this preference? Not how do I get this to be so? So that would be something where I would clarify in a relationship.

[68:59]

Did I tell you about this lady who wanted to talk about my mother? I told you that, right? I'm not going to talk to you about my mother, you know, and her problems. I'm not going to talk to you about that. And I'm not going to get into this, and I'm not going to spend my time doing that. I do not agree. So I'm agreeing to this, this, and this. And you may say, fine, but I don't want to. And there's certain things I may want to do with you too, but you don't have to do it. And so that's not going to be part of our relationship. Like, I'm not going to control the length of your fingernails. You know? I might want to, but you may say, forget it. I like them long. Or I like them short. Does that make sense? No. Do they prefer? I don't think they do. I don't think they prefer to say B's. That's another example of they want to be greedy. You don't understand the word prefer?

[70:09]

Well, it has a pre in it. That's a sign. It's a pre. Anyway, it seems like preference is like you think one thing's better than another, and that doesn't save people. If you want to save people, get out of this distinction between saving and not saving. Bodhisattva's distinction, that's how they save people. Is there a conventional saving? There is a conventional saving, but there's no saving based on convention. You never get saved by convention. But you can have a conventional version of saving, which is like, I'm saved! Well, great! But that's not how you get saved. You don't get saved by some convention. You get saved by the ultimate, which is no preference. You get saved from preferences.

[71:13]

Preferences are hell. Hell, hell, hell, hell. Hell, hell, hell, hell. In case you haven't noticed. What? Is preference synonymous with prejudice? Is it synonymous with prejudice? It seems pretty close, but I wouldn't go so far as to say prejudice. But anyway, preference is basically, I prefer heaven over hell. Both of those are hell. I prefer being with this person rather than that person. I prefer gassho into this person rather than that person. I prefer Buddha over sentient beings. This is not the Bodhisattva way. Bodhisattvas don't like Buddhas better than sentient beings or vice versa. They don't like birth better than death. They don't like Nirvana better than samsara. Satsang is not to prefer this over that. Why do they go to hell? Why do Bodhisattvas go to hell? Why do they go visit hell? They say bees.

[72:14]

No, they don't. They prefer to do it. They do it because of causes and conditions. Got a bodhisattva, bring him to hell, they're in hell. Got a bodhisattva, bring him to heaven, they're in heaven. They don't go anyplace. Don't come and go. They're here. And things arise. And they like meet them. So you've got a bodhisattva. Got hell happening. Hello, hell. Welcome, hell. Come on, hell. Let's have a baby. Bring the hell. Got heaven? Okay, heaven. Yeah, fine. Sentient being. You got shit. You got blood. You got birth. You got death. Bodhisattvas love it. You don't have to go anyplace. No, they don't know about it.

[73:21]

Sentient beings are numberless. I vow to go there. It says sentient beings are numberless. I vow to save them. You don't have to go anyplace to save sentient beings. They are right here, all of them, right now, connected to you. That's what it all says. All you have to do is sit in the attractive spot in the forest long enough. And all the inhabitants will present themselves to you in turn. They present themselves to you. You don't go to them. Because if you go to them, you're doing it on the basis of preference. So the big problem, as Hagel said, is selection. But, you know, that's a problem. Don't get into selecting what you're going to do, who you're going to save. Bodhisattvas don't select.

[74:23]

They don't pick and choose. They're just present. You know? You are there observing how things happen and they come to you and you save them by your wisdom.

[74:34]

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