Well, welcome. Your name? Norma. Welcome, Norma. Glad you made it. Well, for Norma's sake, we'll do a little review, okay? Of last night. So the title of this retreat was Zen Practice in Birth and Death. And birth and death is, have you heard of the term samsara? Samsara is a Sanskrit word, I think, that means going round and round. And it means, you know, round and round between being born and dying, being born and dying. It's the ordinary world of birth and death.

[01:03]

And it's the realm where we have seeking and grasping. And in that world of birth and death along with the birth and death we have fear, anxiety, physical and emotional pain and suffering. Physical pain and physical pleasure are not suffering. unless we grasp or seek in relationship to them. It's possible to have physical pain with no grasping or seeking and be filled with joy and gratitude and peace.

[02:10]

Did you hear that? That's a proposal that is possible in the middle of physical pain when there's no grasping or seeking to be filled with joy and peace. When we don't have grasping and seeking in physical pain or emotional pain, So when we don't have that grasping and seeking, we are free in the midst of physical and emotional pain. You can have physical pain from an injury, which is quite helpful sometimes. Like if you're spraining your ankle, it's kind of helpful to realize that you shouldn't keep walking for a while. It's quite helpful. Or when you touch something really hot, it's quite helpful to get the pain so you take your hand away.

[03:27]

So the thing to learn is how not to seek and grasp in the midst of physical pain. You could have no seeking and grasping and still have emotional pain. even though you're free, you can still have emotional pain, the main kind of emotional pain that you would have if you were free and at peace would be compassion. Compassion is a kind of physical, is a kind of emotional pain. You see others suffering, you see beings that you love suffering, and when you see their suffering, you feel pain. But it's a joyful pain because it comes from love not from grasping. Matter of fact, some people say that the pain of compassion is the greatest joy. But that means that you feel pain with no seeking or grasping.

[04:38]

Seeking and grasping creates anxiety and the root of the word anxiety is that's the root which means to be choked or strangled so when we grasp and seek we kind of choke the joy of life I also wrote in here bodhisattva zen practice So bodhisattvas are those who feel compassion and who vow to develop compassion for all beings and also vow through that compassion practice to attain a state of no grasping and seeking so that they can teach other beings how to let go of grasping and seeking.

[05:43]

Last night I spoke about another way to talk about this is that the Zen practice or bodhisattva Zen practice is to realize intimacy with birth and death which would include intimacy with physical and emotional pain and suffering and anxiety and fear that come in relationship to both physical and emotional pain and suffering. A friend of mine is involved in a pain clinic and she recently with her co-laborators changed the name of the place to the Suffering Clinic Suffering is, in other words, suffering is an unskillful way of dealing with the pain.

[07:08]

So trying to teach people a non-suffering way to relate to their pain. And this is a medical setting. So I'm proposing that intimacy with birth and death, intimacy with birth and death is nirvana. Are you familiar with the word nirvana? There used to be a rock group by that name. Did you ever listen to it? So nirvana means peace in Buddhism and freedom or liberation and freedom lead to the peace of nirvana. So I'm suggesting intimacy with birth and death is nirvana.

[08:11]

Now, I ask you who have heard me speak before, Before I ask that, I say also that the path to intimacy with birth and death for people who have some grasping and seeking, which is most people have some grasping and seeking around birth and death, for people like that, like us, how do we become intimate with So I suggest, in order to be intimate with birth and death, we also have to be intimate with the grasping and seeking around it. It isn't like, okay, I'll be intimate with death, but not the grasping and seeking in the neighborhood, not the pain and suffering in the neighborhood. I've got to be intimate with the whole situation. So now, if that's the case, what are the practices of becoming intimate with birth and death,

[09:20]

with anxiety and fear, with physical and emotional pain around birth and death, what is the way to become intimate? Anybody have any suggestions about how to become intimate with these challenging guests, these challenging phenomena? Yes? What? Being with them. Being what? Being near to them. Be compassionate to them, yeah, right. Welcoming them, yeah. We can talk about three different training methods for being intimate with birth and death. The first one is the method of, you could say, being near But another word would be to be present, to be present with birth and death, to be present with grasping and seeking and all the discomforts that come with that and all the stress and tension that comes with that.

[10:37]

To be present. And I would emphasize the way of being present is to be present Well, it's to be present. In other words, not to be distracted. Did I make a sound? That was Dan that coughed. To not be distracted. To not be distracted. To not be distracted. By the way, one of the things to not be distracted by when you're trying to be present with birth and death, one of the ways to not be distracted is don't be distracted by the thought of duality, by thoughts of duality. And one of the main ones I would start with is when you're being with birth, with death and birth,

[11:44]

and all the stuff that comes with it, when you're being present with anxiety and fear, which come with birth and death, watch out for the dualistic thinking of the variety that birth and death are separate from nirvana. People are trying to be present with the difficulties of birth and death, but they may still think that this birth and death are separate from peace and ease and freedom. Mightn't they? So again, if you think that the sufferings of birth and death are separate... from the peace of freedom from birth and death.

[12:49]

That thought will make you quite vulnerable to wishing to seek the peace. So it will help, it helps when we're in the sufferings of birth and death, it helps to be present with the teaching that birth and death are not separate from peace and freedom from birth and death. That's the way that helps us be present with birth and death. So the first step, the first precept in becoming intimate with birth and death. And again, what did I say intimacy with birth and death was called?

[13:53]

Zen practice and also called nirvana. Intimacy with birth and death is peace. And so the first step is the precept, the practice of being present. And being present means you're not distracted by the thought that this suffering is separate from freedom from this suffering. Freedom from this suffering is not separate from this suffering. That's the teaching. But we ordinarily think that suffering and freedom from suffering are separate. And then we get distracted from the suffering because we're looking for the freedom from the suffering. So we have to say, oh no, no, I've got to watch out for that one. The freedom from the suffering cannot be the slightest bit away from the suffering.

[14:57]

It's a tough one. That's the first practice of presence. The next two practices, the next two precepts are the precept that the first practice is a practice of restraint. You're restraining yourself from going for dualistic ideas. Like enlightenment and delusion are separate. There's delusion and enlightenment someplace else. Delusion is not enlightenment. We don't say that. It's just that they're not separate. Buddhas and unenlightened beings are not the same. They're just inseparable. There's no Buddhas someplace else from deluded beings. And there's no deluded beings floating around separate from enlightened beings. Buddhas can't get away from unenlightened beings and unenlightened beings can't get away from Buddhas.

[16:06]

There's no way to get separate. But unenlightened beings think they can be separate, so they have to, not they have to, they have the opportunity for letting go of that distraction that they're separate from Buddhas. Suffering beings have the opportunity to let go of the distraction of thinking that this suffering is separate from peace and freedom from suffering. That's the first practice. You restrain that dualistic thinking. You restrain the thought that enlightenment is someplace other than here. I'm deluded, yeah. I admit it. But I also have a teaching which says enlightenment's not the least bit separate from my delusion. I restrain the thought that it's separate and remember the teaching that it's not. So I'm present. I restrain the thought that freedom from suffering is separate from my current difficulties.

[17:10]

I restrain that thought and then I'm present. Then I go from the restraint of those dualistic thoughts to an exertion in the practice of intimacy. The exertion is to practice basically six practices. So the first step in intimacy with birth and death is the precept of presence, restraining distractions. The second practice is is the practice of exerting wholesome activities. And the first one Leon mentioned, the first practice is generosity or welcoming. That's the first practice, the first exertion based on this presence. so now this exertion will be based on the same principle of the first practice namely I'm practicing generosity but I don't think that enlightenment someplace else or that freedom someplace else from the practice of generosity it's not like you practice generosity in the realm of suffering and then because you practice generosity you get to go to freedom

[18:37]

You understand that when you practice generosity, freedom is not some other place. When you're suffering and you practice generosity, freedom is not separate from your practice. So if you have pain, you practice generosity towards the pain. That's the first exertion. That's the first practice. Generosity towards discomfort, generosity towards anxiety, generosity towards fear. You say gracias. You're gracious towards pain. You're gracious. You try to be gracious towards pain. You try to be gracious towards hardship, gracious towards fear, gracious towards anxiety, gracious towards anger, gracious towards cruelty, gracious towards forgetfulness, graciousness towards everything, welcoming everything.

[19:46]

Welcome, welcome, welcome. And again, that welcoming, this practice of generosity towards birth and death is founded on the precept of presence, where again, you don't think, oh, freedom from birth and death is someplace other than welcoming. That's the first practice. Second practice I'm going to say the next five without going into them. The next practice is the practice of ethical discipline. The next practice is the practice of patience. The next practice is the practice of developing heroic effort or heroic enthusiasm. The next practice is concentration. And the last practice is wisdom where you actually understand you actually understand you enter the reality of intimacy with birth and death you've heard the teaching that birth and death are intimate with nirvana therefore entering intimacy with birth and death will be peace you've heard the teaching now you actually enter the reality of that

[21:10]

in wisdom. And the wisdom is based on the first five practices, generosity, ethical discipline, patience, heroic effort, and concentration. Those practices are the legs that support the foundation of entering the reality of this teaching. you can be generous towards pain and suffering. You can be generous towards birth and death and still have work to do on being patient. You can be generous with birth and death and still have ethical training to be involved in. So before I go into the next practices, the next practices beyond the generosity with birth and death for the sake of intimacy, before I go into the ethical training and the patience, any responses, questions?

[22:32]

Yes? I'm bothered by the bottom part of the chart because I can imagine them seeking, I can imagine them seeking the grassroots, but it seems to me that while the concept of working out might not apply to Excuse me. Excuse me. I couldn't quite follow you. Could you come up here and talk to me? You're having trouble with the lower part of the chart. Yes. The chart where it says nirvana? Yeah. No grasping and seeking, no birth, no death? Yeah. Yeah. What's the problem? I get the no seeking, no grasping, but then the no birth, no death. It seems like That's not... I don't get that. It seems to me like those events still happen, although the concepts go away, but the events still happen.

[23:35]

She says, it seems like the concepts go away, but the events still happen. Well, even the concepts could still happen. Yeah. So, no birth, no death doesn't mean that the concepts don't happen. What does it mean, no birth, no death? It means peace. that in peace, in the realm of peace, you don't see life as arising and ceasing. You realize the emptiness of birth and death. You realize that birth and death are insubstantial. And in that insubstantiality, you do not see things arising and ceasing anymore. You don't see things coming and going anymore. You don't see, excuse me, when you don't see the separation between yourself and others, in that not seeing it and not finding the separation, there's no separation.

[24:41]

So when you realize the insubstantiality of birth, you can't find birth, is another way to say you see the insubstantiality of birth and death. also the insubstantiality of the concept of birth and death. Well, it still makes no sense because then it seems like it's just this big undifferentiated soup. A big undifferentiated soup. Yeah. No me, no you, no... Yeah. Undifferentiated... Yeah. Well, it is kind of like that. It's like space. It's like space. But the space doesn't do anything to the differentiations. It's just you experience the spaciousness of everything. Yeah. It's like undifferentiated space.

[25:46]

That's kind of what it's like. And there's no coming or going. And there's peace, but the peace is also like ungraspable and insubstantial. And you can't get a hold of the peace either. If you can get a hold of peace, it turns to birth and death. So nirvana, or peace... if you get a hold of it, it turns into birth and death. So birth and death is... and all the suffering that comes with that is a result of grasping no birth and no death. In other words, you imagine that you can get a hold of birth and death and then you have birth and death. but also you imagine you can get a hold of peace, I should say.

[26:48]

You imagine that peace can be grasped. You imagine that freedom can be grasped. It's a mistake. It's ignoring the reality of peace. So one could say you have this situation of peace. People can't stand it. Living beings can't stand it. They imagine that it can be grasped. They grasp it, and then they get birth and death. People are living in peace, and in peace there's no coming or going. Peace is not disturbed by coming and going. If you imagine you can get a hold of that peace, then you get coming and going. It still seems to me that there's some kind of differentiation going on inside of that. The differentiation that's going on inside the peace or around the peace is the differentiation being performed by the people who are in birth and death.

[27:50]

The beings who realize peace understand that peace is not separate from birth and death. That's part of the reason why you can't get a hold of peace is because peace is not separate from birth and death. Also you can't get a hold of birth and death but you think you can and if you think you can then you feel separate from peace. But in peace you understand that your peace is not separate from birth and death. So when birth and death comes up to you when you're in peace, you say, hello, no birth and death. You understand, hello, insubstantial birth and death. Bodhisattvas have great compassion for all beings in birth and death. When they realize nirvana, they do not grasp it because they understand it cannot be grasped. Because they understand it cannot be grasped, they don't grasp it. So they're not holding on to peace. As a matter of fact, they're giving it away. But giving it away, they just give more.

[28:54]

And they give it away and embrace birth and death. But the birth and death that's surrounding them is the birth and death of beings who have not yet become intimate with birth and death so all the beings who are not intimate with birth and death are in a non-separate relationship with those who have realized intimacy with birth and death so if you're in peace where there's no birth and death you're not separate from all the beings who are living in birth and death you're not separate from the beings who are making all kinds of distinctions and discriminations matter of fact you see the world of birth and death through the eyes of those who have not yet become intimate with it because those beings who have become intimate with birth and death can't see it anymore when you become intimate with your lover you can't see your lover anymore because they're not out there when you're intimate but if you achieve intimacy

[30:08]

there still is non-intimacy around you if all the beings that you're devoted to have not yet realized it. So it's not like non-intimacy is annihilated when you realize intimacy unless everybody in the universe, unless all the living beings would realize it, there still will be the appearance of birth and death for those who have not yet realized intimacy with it. Now does everything make perfect sense? It makes perfect nonsense. Perfect nonsense? Wow. Well, that's close. That's not separate from perfect sense. Any other responses so far? Yes. Might as well come here so we can listen to it together. I actually realized something that I had read a long time ago, and that's the meaning of the word samasara.

[31:12]

Of course, in this culture, it's assumed that it's alien, but I want to show you it's not that alien at all. Some of you may know that Indian languages as well as European languages have the same roots, and languages that even precede Sanskrit. So, samasara Samasara has a similar meaning to summary. And if you sound the same to summary and samasara. And sama has another meaning which is proper or balanced. So it's a balanced or proper summary. So samasara means proper understanding of the cycle of arising and passing of birth and death. So, in fully understanding samasara, and for years and years I was confused, but when this woman asked that question, it became clear. Samasara is full, proper, clear understanding of the cycle of birth and death.

[32:15]

How can that be different from nirvana, which is the proper understanding of the insignificance of birth and death? So in understanding birth and death, we lose our grasp and seeking of birth and grasping our resistance to death. And therefore, the grip is lost. It doesn't mean that the facts are lost. But we fully understand that birth happens, death happens in a kind of physical sense. But truly there is no such thing as birth that I need to but an after, and do such thing as death, then I need to resist. Right. Right. Thank you. Anything else you care to offer anybody?

[33:21]

Yes, Leon. It seems to me that this, the idea of heaven, which I spent the first 20 years of my life thinking about, comes from this idea, comes from this no birth and no death concept, that if I become intimate with no birth and no death, I can join perhaps the samsara, the idea that I have joined this coming and going myself, and that my no death, my own no death,

[34:28]

comes from this, moves into this, the samsara of life, the coming and going. I am just, I become part of that, of all coming and going. And that the idea of heaven has thought about by others has basis in this no death and no birth. Thank you. I'm somewhat enjoying this bright light coming into my eyes, but I think I'd like to mute it a little bit if I could. Any other questions or responses to the situation?

[35:45]

Yes, Susan. I'm wondering if part of what seems like struggle to understand this is a grasping toward understanding. Could be. Or a seeking of understanding. Yeah. And that there is this... Can I say something? Yeah. So we're studying the teachings, we're listening to the teachings, and we may feel like, oh, you know, I wish I could understand better. And you could actually wish that without seeking that, but probably we might seek it. And so if we do seek, if we notice a seeking or kind of a leaning off balance towards a new understanding, then we can sort of try to stand upright and be present and realize again, I wish a better understanding of the teachings

[36:56]

I wish a deeper understanding of the teaching. At the same time, I don't get off balance by that wish. I stay balanced with the wish for a deeper understanding. That I would have a deeper understanding or that we would have a deeper understanding. I wish that this weekend we would have deeper understanding of the teachings. I wish that we would have a deeper understanding of reality. And at the same time, I try to wish that without leaning into that. And if I notice that I'm leaning into it, I realize, oh, that actually will interfere with a deeper understanding. So then I pull myself upright and realize I wish for it, but I don't, like, lean into it or seek it. But if I do seek it, if I do find myself leaning into a better understanding, then I practice compassion with my leaning. And one of the ways to practice compassion with the leaning is saying, say, thank you, leaning.

[37:57]

Welcome, leaning. And then welcome standing up straight. Okay. And now I still wish for us all to have a deeper understanding. But if nobody has a deeper understanding, I still wish it because I'm not leaning into it. If I lean into it and you people don't have deeper understanding or I don't have a deeper understanding, I might feel like, well, I don't wish it anymore then. I wished a deeper understanding and at the end of the weekend nobody had a deeper understanding. I don't wish it anymore. I don't want that anymore. No. I wish it and I wish it and I wish it and I wish it until everybody has a profound understanding. And I don't have to wish it anymore because it's been realized. So when the seeking comes, and it does, we practice compassion towards the seeking. When the leaning into a deeper understanding comes, we practice compassion towards the leaning. And then we say, well, would you like to stand up straight now, dear? No, I think I'll lean over more.

[39:00]

Thank you. I kind of like leaning into a deeper understanding. Okay. So I'm patient with that. And after a while, it doesn't feel too good here in my abdomen to be leaning forward like this, so I'm going to stand up straight. Or if I lean forward, I'm going to lean forward like with my back straight. That feels better. Yeah, good. So, yeah, so if there is any seeking or imbalance in your mind, intention to develop an understanding of the teaching, then be kind to that imbalance and come upright again by that kindness. So it seems like, in a certain way, using words to explore almost invites a leaning and then the being upright is more of the sitting with and experiencing. we probably should invite leaning.

[40:08]

Leaning is welcome. Being off is welcome. So in fact, everything you do in some sense invites imbalance when you're being generous. But if you invite imbalance, that doesn't mean you're acting it out. You're just welcoming it. So using words is one way to find intimacy. So we shouldn't like cross off the using words. We should just realize that words could be an opportunity for us to indulge in leaning. But we welcome leaning too. We welcome imbalance. It isn't just that we welcome balance. It isn't just that we welcome equanimity. We welcome distraction, imbalance, anxiety. We welcome everything. So, yeah. So you said invitation, which is slightly stronger than welcoming, but words do make us vulnerable to being off balance.

[41:15]

But they're also one of the ways, one of our gifts. Words have been given to us. The teachings come to us in words. We live in the realm of words before we hear the teachings. Children grow up and they're taught language as a gift given them so they can interact with other beings and then you can use language to receive the teachings. The teachings aren't language but the teachings allow themselves to be converted into language. The teachings are beyond birth and death and in reality everything is. But also the teachings allow themselves to be interpreted through language. So language is a gift. But also language is the way we get tripped up. So language is the way we get tripped up and language is the way we become free. It's tricky. You have to practice these practices. You have to be intimate with language too.

[42:19]

Did you want to offer something, Angela? Please sit down. Is to renounce duality Can we say that that's the same as... Renouncing duality could be an alternative way to restrain it. Let go of it. Let go of duality. Restrain duality. Yeah. Or let go of dualistic thinking. Restrain dualistic thinking. Because dualistic thinking distracts us from being present. Yeah. I experience in sitting meditation intimacy with my discomfort.

[43:42]

And it's interesting that we're talking about this this morning because I have been contemplating it. So I'm intimate with... Can I ask a question? Yes. Can you hear her okay in the back? Can everybody hear her? Good. So I'm being intimate with my discomfort. Great. And yet then I do notice that this dualistic expression comes, this seeking or grasping And so I, as I continue to be with that, I had the tendency to... Be with what?

[44:47]

Be with the fear, the anxiety, the will, the dualistic mind. Yeah, so can I say something there? So this, you become, you use physical discomfort as maybe easy to spot sometimes. So by being intimate with physical discomfort... sometimes that are starting to be intimate with physical discomfort it shows us other areas other things that we're not yet intimate with so intimate with one thing helps us be intimate with other things but part of the path of being intimate with other things is to notice that we're not yet intimate with them so noticing a lack of intimacy is necessary when we're not intimate noticing our lack of intimacy actually means noticing that we think we're not intimate or we don't want to be intimate so some people might say well I'm willing to be intimate with my physical pain but not with my emotional pain and some people it's the reverse some people are good on emotional pain and not too good on physical pain so if you can be somewhat intimate with the physical pain then you start to notice oh these other pains I'm not so intimate with okay

[46:06]

So now you can try to work on that. So in working on that, in my sitting meditation... Yes? Well, I think I just answered my question. What was the answer? Well, throughout my day, my tendency is to distract myself with food. And this... causes a lot of fear. I mean, causes a lot of pain. Because I see that I'm distracting myself. And it's easy to do that when I'm... Okay, can I say something there too? She sees that she's distracting herself and she feels pain about distracting herself, right? But you see it. That's the good news. Other people, in the past, you might have distracted yourself and not even seen it. However, when you were distracting yourself in the past, you also were in pain, but you didn't notice the distraction and you didn't notice the pain because you were using the distraction as a distraction from the pain.

[47:16]

And distractions sometimes do distract us from the pain for a little while. Now you're seeing that the distraction from the pain, using food to distract yourself from the pain, actually just causes more pain. You're seeing that now. This is a step forward, but the distraction practice, the distraction process or the distraction practice is still going on. So those six... Those six practices can be applied to this to your awareness now. Now you're aware of this distraction, this habit of this particular form of distraction. And patience. Yeah, patience is big because I don't see... Patience is big. I don't see, as I'm going through my day, that I'm going to be able to be quiet enough and intimate enough with the food, with the experience of pain,

[48:18]

When you say you don't see that you're going to be quiet enough? In other words, you're thinking of the future? No. When you said, I don't think I'm going to be quiet enough? Yes, I guess I am. Then you're not grasping. In patience, you're not so much thinking that you're not going to be intimate enough. In patience, you're more like saying, I'm not intimate enough now. Now I'm not intimate. And that's painful enough. You don't have to add to, I'm not intimate now. You don't have to add on to that, I'm not going to be intimate enough. And I haven't been intimate enough. Pain is working with the present problem. I mean, excuse me, patience is to work with the present problem. The present problems are enough. And actually, if you can be present with the present problems... You're practicing patience. It's the best way to be with your present problems is to be in the present with them rather than thinking, oh, my present problems, I've been having problems like these for a long time and I might have them a lot in the future.

[49:33]

You don't have to get into that. Matter of fact, getting into that weakens your presence. It's enough to deal with the present. We can barely do that or can't. But if you can deal with the present, then you can deal with the next present. And patience is about coming to the present problem. As a matter of fact, the most tiny present is the best. And the smallest little piece of time is the best. So presence and patience are closely related. Thank you for the present. You're welcome. Anything else at this time you care to offer? Yes. I'm just wondering, as I was hearing everybody's talking,

[50:55]

It almost appears that peace and birth and death are in play together. Peace and birth and death are in play together. Right. And if you're intimate with birth and death, you'll notice that peace is at play there. Yes, exactly. And if you're intimate with peace, you'll notice that birth and death are at play there until all living beings are at peace. But that's not yet the case. So when we're at peace and we're not attached to peace, we see that all unpeaceful states are at play with the peace. So the Zen way or the Bodhisattva way is that when you're in peace, you do not attach to the peace.

[51:59]

You welcome the peace, but you're open to the peace going away. You're not holding on to it. And you notice the peace is actually a playful peace. It's not a rigid peace. It's a peace that's open to war. It doesn't like war. It doesn't dislike war. It's open to war. It plays with war. It wishes to spread into war. The Buddha wishes to spread enlightenment into war and realize peace in war. And the process of this spreading is playful. Bodhisattva's come into the world of birth and death. They wish to be in the birth and death. They wish to be in the world of birth and death. They want to be there so that they can teach the beings how to play in birth and death. Because many beings do not know how to play in birth and death, right?

[53:00]

A lot of beings are very tense and rigid in birth and death. They tighten up when the pain comes. So bodhisattvas need to come and teach, want to come and teach how to play in birth and death. Nirvana comes to teach how to play with birth and death. Birth and death tests nirvana to see if it can be playful. I had another idea to turn this way.

[54:00]

You want to be close enough to be close enough? Yeah, right. It's good to be close enough to be close enough. I feel I want to share my experience with striving, grasping it. Understanding these concepts. I will do that to the limit. I will lean into it until I can't do it anymore. Until you can't lean anymore? Well, I just can't. Yes, I can't. I can't do this anymore. You lean until you're flat on your face. I can't see. Well, I think I do everything that way. And then... If you lean all the way, you're upright horizontally. That's the only way I finally give up leaning. Well, thanks for the tip. And then I get to actually know what it is I'm trying to understand.

[55:11]

I mean, not understand it. But I had this experience at Green Gulch a little over a year ago when I couldn't stand the words anymore. It's all about sitting. No more words. And then I got a sore throat, and they had to take me to the doctor. And it was a long time before anybody was coming to pick me up. And this thing was the worst I'd ever had, the worst they'd ever seen. And I'm in pain. And that will put you in the present. But the thing was, there wasn't anything I could do. And I'm sure this would not have happened had I not been doing the practice to varying degrees for a number of years. But something happened. There wasn't anything I could do except sit there and meditate. And I knew... I experienced something.

[56:13]

Maybe that's being in. I think that's what must mean when one says being in. I knew it. I didn't understand it. I came away from that practice period early and with this complete, I wouldn't say understanding, but I knew that I wasn't going to get anything in the city. But I had to, I was going to, you know, there was a desire to sit, a desire to sit without getting anything out of it, which I had never experienced before. And I'm laughing and accepting, so, oh, of course. But this is something that you can't understand. I can't explain. But I can certainly say that I experienced it, of course, and I tried to grasp it. I didn't realize what was going on. I know I was trying to grasp it, but I don't think I knew what to do with it.

[57:23]

I had to give it away, possibly. In any case, this is a treasure to me because I was able, at one moment, To know this and not understand it. I think I need to make a difference between the words. Words have to be carefully distinguished. Because they are in the sun. And I think I need to distinguish between the words to understand, like to grasp. And to be intimate with. That's what it is. To me, it does. This can be experienced, but it cannot be grasped. There can be experiences which are not grasped.

[58:26]

Well, I think whatever it is we're straining for here is something that cannot be grasped. But it can definitely be experienced once we have tried and tried and tried and tried to grasp. So there's something you're wishing for, something you want that can be experienced but not grasped. Yeah. And you still want it? No, I don't think so. I think that it... You don't want it anymore? No, it's not that. I don't have to want it. I didn't say you have to want it. I said, do you want it? Do you want this thing that cannot be grasped? I can't say that I have it. I didn't ask you that question. I asked you if you want this something that can't be grasped. I asked you that. Are you going to answer my question today?

[59:33]

It never occurred to me to want it. Well, you just said you did want it. And I repeated it back to you. Well, that was before. Yeah, I'm asking you about... Now I'm asking you, do you want something that cannot be grasped? Sure. Me too. And do you want to do a practice that you're not going to get anything out of? Oh. I see no other way. Yeah, okay. Yeah, so we have a practice of, we call it Zen, or Zazen, and it's a practice that you don't get anything out of, and the practice you don't get anything out of is the practice you want. Yeah. I didn't know that until I

[60:34]

experience it once again. Oh, this is exactly what I want. This is what you want, right? When I first came to the San Francisco Zen Center, I think the story goes like this. The address of the San Francisco Zen Center was 1881 Bush Street. Bush Street is one of those streets that you'll find in those San Francisco detective novels written by Dashiell Hamlet. One of the nice, fun things about reading Dashield Hamlet is you have all these street names that are like, if you live in San Francisco, it's like he's talking about some place right around the corner, you know.

[61:46]

It's kind of fun. Anyway, Bush Street, 1881 Bush Street. So I went to the San Francisco Zen Center, which I heard was at 1881 Bush Street. And I'd already been to Tassajara earlier that year, 1967. Then I came back to visit San Francisco and went to the Zen Center. I wanted to go to the Zen Center and I got the address and I went to 1881 Bush Street. Did you know the address of the San Francisco Zen Center used to be 1881 Bush Street? It was. So I went there and there was the sign 1881. And I knocked on the door and the door was open and there was, I think, some middle-aged or beyond middle-aged Japanese-looking men in there. They could have been Chinese, and I didn't know Japanese really, but I thought they were Japanese.

[62:48]

And I went in and there was a lot of men there and they were playing Go. I don't know much about the game of Go. But I knew enough to see that they were playing Go. And there were also a lot of them smoking cigarettes. So I sat down. They gestured for me to sit in a seat. And I sat in the seat. And I watched these guys playing Go and smoking cigarettes. And nobody talked to me. They were mostly speaking Japanese to each other. I sat there for not too long. I mean, I didn't sit there for an hour. But somewhere between 10 seconds and an hour, I sat there. Watching these, I was 24. I watched these 60, 70, 80-year-old men playing Go, smoking cigarettes. And I watched and I watched. And then the thought arose in my head, maybe this is not the Zen Center.

[63:52]

Maybe somehow, even though the address is 1881 Bush, maybe this isn't the Zen Center. So I said to one of the men, is this the Zen Center? And he said, no, it's next door. This is 1881 B. The Zen Center is 1881 A. So I just walked next door and then I knocked on the door and And a Japanese man opened the door. This man was a Zen priest. He had robes on kind of like this, and he had a shaved head kind of like this. But he looked like he was about 35 or 40. And I thought, I went to the Zen Center to meet Suzuki Roshi, the founder. And I heard, I went to Tassajara the summer before, and he wasn't there.

[64:57]

So I came back to meet him. And I heard when I was at Tassajara that he was about 63, 64. And so when this Japanese man opened the door, I thought it was Suzuki Roshi. And he looked like he was about 35, and I thought, wow, this Zen is really interesting, good stuff. For a 63-year-old man to look like this is really impressive. So, and this person, this Japanese priest had come in, and I actually came to meet Suzuki Roshi, but also I was also coming to meet the priest. president of Zen Center so I said to this man I would like to you know start practicing here and he said oh well you maybe you should meet the president and he called the president and meantime he let me sit down in his office where he was doing some work and he was working doing some writing and reading and while he was doing his writing he kept falling asleep

[66:10]

But he was persevering and writing. And I was just sitting there. He just kept working like that, going to sleep in front of me. And I thought this was Suzuki Roshi, a sleepy 63-year-old man who looked like he was 35. And then the president of Zen Center came to the room and I left with him. Then I found out that wasn't Suzuki Roshi. That was another priest named Katagiri Roshi, who was actually 35. He was the age he looked like he was. Anyway, I went and had a meeting with the president. And then I knew Kadagiri Roshi, let's see, for another, let's see, 35, 45, 55, 55, 62. So I knew him for about another 25 years or so.

[67:17]

And then the time came when he was 62, and he was... he was dying and I was sitting by him while he was dying. This young man, this young man I had met was now lying, he was lying down on the verge of death and his students and friends and family were around him. I was one of them sitting there by my by my teacher one of my teachers and I was sitting by his wife and he and his wife had just a few days before received a grandson just a few days before he died his his family gave him a grandson and his wife is sitting there and she said now I see you know she just saw her grandson being born

[68:39]

She says, now I see that when we're dying, it's really difficult. Here he was. It was really difficult for him to be intimate with this process. He's a Zen master, but it was difficult to be present with the pain that was coming to him. But he was trying to practice with it. and everybody was there supporting him to practice with his his dying process she said now I see that when people are dying they have a difficult time but also I see that when people are born they have a difficult time she just saw her grandson be born he had a difficult time too and his mother had a difficult time birth is difficult and death is difficult she said the difference is that we feel good about birth because we get something and we feel not so good about death because we lose something.

[69:43]

But the people that are going through it are really the same. One's not really more difficult than the other. And of course sometimes birth and death are really close, right? Sometimes the baby dies and the mother dies. So the birth and death are sometimes very close. At the other time, maybe we don't see that the birth and death are so close, but they're still close. We just have trouble seeing it. At the time, and some people actually have trouble seeing it at the so-called birth of a baby. They have trouble seeing the death right there. But in ancient times, it wasn't so difficult to see. Women really knew that death was close to birth. They knew that. So it wasn't, you know, it was no picnic. in their minds. It still isn't really, but... Anyway, that's a teaching that I learned with Kadagiri Roshi dying. Birth is difficult, death is difficult, but we feel differently about it when we're watching.

[70:52]

But if we're in it, if we're in it, we feel the same. In both cases, we're really challenged to be intimate with the process. And I just thought of that story because when I was talking to Lenore, I remember one time Katagiri, she said, one of his teachers, when his teacher died, when that teacher died, there was a big newspaper article on him, and the headline said, Zen Master Wastes Life Practicing Zen. Wastes his life practicing Zen. In other words, spends his life doing a practice that you don't get anything from. That was his teaching, is to practice zazen, practice the zazen you don't get anything from, practice the zazen which is totally useless.

[71:54]

And when Kadagiri, he told us that headline, and he said, pretty good. The newspaper people understood. quite well that Zen's a practice we do, we want to do, a practice that you can't get. Most people want to do a practice you can get, but Lenora wants to do a practice she can't grasp. She realizes she can't grasp Zen, and she still wants to practice it. Right? So you all witnessed that. She said that. And a reminder, just in case she forgets. because sometimes she forgets that she wants to sometimes she says well I have no choice rather than I want to like sometimes people you know sometimes people say I want to be a bodhisattva and I say do you want to be a bodhisattva and then they say I have no choice I say yes but do you want to be I have no choice I say but do you want to be

[73:08]

Yes, I do. I want to practice a way that I can't grasp. Well, I don't know where to go next. I could... It's not quite time for breakfast or brunch, I should say. So, I could go on to the next aspect of becoming intimate with birth and death. Shall I? What was the first aspect of becoming intimate with birth and death? Do you remember? What? Generosity. Actually, but before generosity, what was the first step? What? Now, generosity and welcoming are the same.

[74:14]

What's the step before the... Huh? Restraining what? Restraining distractions. So the first step, the first precept is restrain distractions from birth and death. Be present with it. That's first. And again, being present with it means... Be with it without trying to get anything. Be with it without thinking that it's separate from freedom. First step is presence. Next step is welcome it. Generosity. Okay? That's the first of the six practices which follow from being present with the situation of birth and death. So now after... And these practices are done in order. these six practices are done in order because they depend on the previous one.

[75:16]

However, even though they're done in order, each one includes the other five. The first practice of welcoming includes the next five. Still, you start with the first one because you won't understand that it includes all five unless you do things in order. And all five support the other, each, all five support the other one. Okay, so the first practice of generosity, and it actually includes the next ones, but another aspect of these six practices of, what are they again? Generosity, ethical conduct, patience, heroic effort, concentration, and wisdom. The first three are particularly, the first three of the six are to benefit, to bring benefit to the situation.

[76:31]

What situation? The situation of birth and death. to bring benefit. The next three are to attain freedom from it or with it. The first three, without still not being free of it, bring benefit to the anxiety and other sufferings of birth and death. The first practice of benefit is generosity. Next is ethical discipline. in the ethical discipline, in the sense of practicing the precepts of not killing, not stealing, not lying, not misusing sexuality, not intoxicating, not slandering, not praising self at the expense of others, not being possessive,

[77:35]

not no ill will, and not disparaging the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, the enlightenment, the teaching of enlightenment, and the community of those devoted to the teaching. Those disciplines bring benefit to the world of birth and death. They bring benefit to the experience, all the experiences of suffering in the world of birth and death. We don't try to kill birth and death. We don't try to kill anxiety. We don't try to suck the life out of pain. Trying to suck the life out of pain, you can see, is closely related to the precept of intoxication. Some people try to take the pain out of life by intoxicating themselves.

[78:39]

We don't take life away from birth and death. Again, now I just slipped into the second one. We don't take what's not given. Now, not taking what's not given, again, is related to welcoming what is given. But we now, even when we practice generosity, we can still be trying to get something. However, the practice of generosity should be practiced without trying to get something but we may not notice we're trying to get something in other words it could be that ethical flaw in our generosity practice that we're trying to get something so we might give something to someone someone might give something to someone and think not notice that we're trying to get something from them that they're not giving us

[79:51]

And then when they don't give it to us, we may notice that we were trying to get it, and that they don't give it to us, and then we still, maybe some part of us wants to try to get it. So we notice, oh, yeah, they're not giving it, and I want to do the practice of not trying to take their gratitude, which they're not giving. or take people's noticing how generous I am trying to take that before they give it to me. So we could just pause here for a little bit and look at these precepts and contemplate how these precepts might help us become intimate with anxiety How does ethics help us become intimate with anxiety? This kind of ethics?

[80:52]

Any thoughts about that or questions about that? Does it make sense to you that this kind of ethical training helps you become intimate with anxiety and fear and other kinds of pain and suffering? Does it occur to you that it helps you? Dash, does it occur to you that we need to do these practices in order to be intimate with our life and death? Please come. Do you want to ask a question from there? The question is, as you were speaking, as somebody wanted to take something, what came to my mind was that the moment of taking is because I'm not fully giving myself to it.

[82:07]

If I fully give, if we fully give ourselves to it, then there would not be any taking. I agree. Yeah, it's more of the giving than taking. Yeah, so taking what's not given kind of like pushes the intimacy away. If you want something, that's fine. You don't have to... You can be intimate with things that you want. You can want intimacy even though you're intimate. So if you take something before it's given, you probably haven't given yourself to the thing enough. If you give yourself completely to something, you receive it. If you give yourself completely to something, you receive it. If you give yourself completely to something, you're intimate with it, and it gives itself to you. That was easy to say.

[83:08]

Any response to that? Looks like Homa already agrees with that. I'll receive that now. Thank you for the gift. Okay. Yes, Shankar. I was actually very surprised. I've been in the U.S. 25 years, and I was quite surprised to find that Buddhist practices in the United States often allow some degree of intoxication or define intoxication differently. For example... marijuana is considered okay because the law says so in California under medical circumstances. And I really asked myself the question, at what point is something intoxicating or not? And as we were discussing it, the answer came to me when you said that anything that sucks the pain out of it doesn't allow us to be intimate with that pain because we are not allowing the pain to be

[84:25]

So if medical muriyana or anything doesn't allow the pain to be, we should at least notice that we have to be able to be gracious to the fact that we're not allowing the pain to be and we're taking, ingesting something. And there's pain in even ingesting if it's a practice. So I kind of has some understanding of the fact that what I used to consider before as, oh, this is wrong Buddhism or bad Buddhism, I'm now able to allow that, and yet I'm able to allow myself not to ingest and continue my practice. Very good. Very good. Yeah. Generosity is first, then we do ethical discipline. For example, the ethical precept of not intoxicating. But before we practice not intoxicating, we're already practicing generosity.

[85:30]

We're already being gracious and open and welcoming to, perhaps, intoxicating. We want to do the practice of not intoxicating, but we're also gracious towards intoxicators and intoxication. Otherwise there's that grasping of this is wrong and that is right. And then we get into this whole thing of, oh, I won't go to Santa Cruz because they're practicing it the wrong way. And instead I have to go all the way to Spirit Rock and so on. And on the way to Spirit Rock you have to go through San Francisco. You know, the drug capital. I think, I don't know about now, but in the old days San Francisco had the highest rate of alcoholism. A lot of people come from all over the country to San Francisco as a last resort. Maybe I'll be happy in San Francisco. And then they get there and, God, I'm not even happy in San Francisco.

[86:32]

And then they take drugs. Maybe that'll help. And then there's the Golden Gate Bridge. So it's a great place. A lot of suffering people there who are aware of it. Who are aware of it. And so I think Shankar has pointed out the first practice of generosity sets the stage for practicing these precepts in a non-clinging way. So even in the early Buddhist teaching one of the wrong views was to grasp your understanding of these ethical precepts. So the practitioners were committed to ethical discipline but also the Buddha warned them watch out for the view of grasping your understanding of these precepts because until you realize intimacy with birth and death by practicing these precepts you don't really understand these precepts until you realize no grasping and no seeking no birth no death you don't really understand what no intoxication means everybody has some understanding of what it means that's fine

[87:47]

We have to have some understanding of it. We do. But our understanding, until we're intimate with that practice and with the suffering, isn't complete. So we have to be generous about these. And we see people who it looks like they're being unskillful, that they're abusing substances and they're being harmed by it. But we also should be generous towards them. and generous towards understanding of what these precepts mean. A friend of mine had open heart surgery and afterwards when he breathed it was painful. So he was breathing shallowly. But breathing shallowly went along with lots of fluids building up in his lungs so they gave him some pain medication so he could stand to breathe deeply and clear the fluids out if he had adhered to no pain medication he probably would have died

[89:06]

and then not been able to continue his practice so sometimes it's really helpful to take some medication to in a sense for the benefit of life to be flexible about what is a proper relationship to pain and medications which alter the level of pain it seems pretty clear to me that to take so much pain medication that you have no pain that's too much so that's what some people do is they take some medications where they have zero pain so such drugs are very tempting to take more of because no pain is pretty nice it's similar to no birth no death that's going too far so we have to be flexible and playful with these serious practices bodhisattvas are playful with ethical discipline.

[90:15]

They're really committed to ethical discipline. And when they commit to ethical discipline and they practice ethical discipline, they're very happy. And when they commit to ethical discipline and they don't practice it, they feel embarrassed and regretful and ashamed. Even so, even so they are committed to ethical discipline because they wish to be intimate with birth and death and all beings and they also are playful with ethical discipline because they understand that being playful with ethical discipline will lead them to engage it more and more deeply. It's not to be playful to get away from it, it's to be playful to go deeper and deeper and deeper. Playfulness with these serious practices helps us go deeper and realize what they're really about.

[91:16]

What they're really about is to be intimate with birth and death. Ethical discipline helps us be intimate with birth and death. But if we use ethical discipline in a rigid way, that doesn't totally stop the process, but it interferes with going deeper into intimacy. Ethical discipline takes us deeper, but not if we're rigid about it. Rigidity creates distance. Anything else about ethical discipline, ethical practices in relationship to intimacy? Does it make sense to you that ethical discipline is necessary to be intimate with each other and with our own life, our own challenges? I guess it all makes sense to you?

[92:49]

So you've heard enough of it, we can move on? Are you just awestruck by the profundity of the practice of ethics? You're just experiencing awe of ethical practice. The awe of how telling the truth or not lying helps us be intimate. Yes, Norma. What would be a good book to read for a beginner like myself? About what? Ethical discipline? Just understanding the precepts or just becoming familiar with the precepts. Well, one of them is called Being Upright. It's about the precepts. And... I've heard that it's helpful. Have you heard about it?

[93:50]

No. They probably have it in the bookstore. It's called Being Upright. It's about the Bodhisattva precepts. It's about being intimate with our life. It's about Bodhisattva precepts and Zen practice. Excuse me for recommending it. You're not possessive of this. Thank you. Yes, June. Why don't you come here? Let's do something different. Yes, June. really see well when I wear those glasses, actually. That's better. First I want to say... Oh, by the way, I want to introduce you to Miss Riley, Miss Riley.

[94:56]

Hi, Miss Riley. It wasn't my son after all. First, what I want to say is Jack and I went to a benefit at IMC, the Gil's place in Midwood City, and they had an auction, and they auctioned off certificates of nothingness. So people were bidding to get, paying, whatever, and what they got was a certificate of so many shares of nothing. Brilliant marketing. Isn't that good? Yeah. For some people. Yeah, very good. I also will offer you certificates of nothingness this weekend. You don't have to pay anything for them. That's a better deal. What I was thinking of is that when you said you can't get, or if you give yourself totally to something, then you get it.

[96:07]

And that's the only way. I don't know if it's the only way. I guess it is. You might think you got something. You might think you received something and not feel like you gave yourself to it. Like some children actually realize that their parents give them stuff, but it never occurs to them to be generous to their parents. But in fact, when they realize that their parents have given them gifts, in fact, they have given themselves to their parents from the parents' perspective. If their parents are enlightened. Yes. Yeah. So in fact, it's going on, but we don't necessarily realize it. So some people actually receive something and they don't realize that they have given themselves to it. But if you do give yourself something completely, you do realize that you receive it. So a lot of people feel like, for example, a lot of people tell me they don't feel supported sometimes.

[97:14]

I say, well, if you don't feel supported, just give support. If you give support more and more, you will realize you're supported. Anybody who doesn't realize they're supported has not yet given full support. Some people feel supported, however, who have not yet realized that they're giving full support, which is fine. It's fine if some people say, I feel really supported, but I don't feel like I support everybody. Okay. But if you don't feel supported, then the medicine for that is more support to others than you realize. If you want a diamond ring, and you give yourself to the diamond ring, you'll receive the diamond ring. It may still be in Tiffany's, behind the glass, but you'll have it.

[98:15]

If you give yourself completely to compassion, you'll receive it. If you hold back a little bit, even though it's being offered to you, if you hold back giving yourself to it, you're holding back will be the distance that was easy to say but it's hard to give yourself completely to anything because as you get to the if you go from 90% to 100% at that place the thought may occur to you what will happen to me if I give myself completely to something will there be anything left of me if I give myself completely So that last little bit sometimes is really hard. That's what I was going to comment on. Oh. Yeah, so I didn't even have to say it. Well, I was thinking about... That's what I was going to ask you to comment on, but you didn't have to say it.

[99:21]

Well, I might as well sit down. We're all done, right? Yeah, I'll sit down. You can take over. Or no, you don't. Or no, you don't. Well, I was thinking about that last, or I don't think last, just giving yourself fully like that. Yeah. Well, it's scary. And guilt comes up. Like, I was thinking it's tied to pleasure. Like, is it okay to be this, whatever, joyful, ecstatic, happy, involved, it gets scary. Yep, it can get scary. So then we practice giving ourselves to the scary. That's kind of pretty, isn't it? It is, nicely done. Yeah, kind of nice. Thank you. Okay, now, we still have some more time before brunch.

[100:26]

If there's more you'd like to discuss around ethics, or we can move on to patience. Yes? Do we sometimes think that... In giving there's something to give? Do we sometimes think that in giving there's something to get? Give. That in receiving? When we're giving do we sometimes think there's something to give? Oh yeah, we often do. We often think that in giving there's something being given and somebody receiving. We often think in those terms. But as we get more completely into the process, we realize you cannot grasp one, the giver, separate from the receiver.

[101:32]

You cannot separate the giver, receiver, and gift. You can't find them as you get more completely into the process. This is, we call this When the three wheels are purified, the three wheels are giver, receiver, and gift. In the purity of the giver, receiver, and gift, we realize the insubstantiality of giver, receiver, and gift because there can't be a substantial... giver, because the giver depends on the receiver. Take away the receiver, there's no giver. So, you can't really get a hold of giver, receiver, or gift. But usually we approach that by having a giver-receiver and gift, or receiver-giver and gift. We approach that with this dualistic understanding of the process. As we get more and more into the process we discover wisdom in the first practice, we discover the sixth practice.

[102:36]

The wisdom is in the first practice but we have to be really deeply into the first practice to discover wisdom's in it. And the wisdom is And we understand that when you give yourself completely to something you receive it. It's not something out there separate from your giving. And the one who gives it to you is not separate from your giving either. And the one who gives to you is not separate from your receiving. Being a good receiver you make the world generous place. But usually we have some separation when we start practicing. I guess I was going to say, is this how the giving is also an expression of ethics? That's right. That's how the giving is an expression of ethics, right. Please come. welcome susan thank you welcome um my question was you had said back up about 20 minutes ago the first three um was one thing but the second three were the first three are to bring benefit to the world of suffering okay got that the second three are to bring liberation in the world of suffering

[104:11]

So even while beings are still not free of suffering we bring benefit to them by generosity, ethics, and patience. And we teach them how to bring benefit by doing these practices. But by themselves they need the next three in order to actually achieve liberation from birth and death. So we need the heroic effort, concentration, and wisdom which are in the first three, but they have to be brought out of the first three in order to not only benefit, but bring freedom. Okay? So the next practice is patience, which I've already talked about. Is there anything more about patience that anybody wants to bring up? Does it make sense to you that patience is part of being intimate with what's happening?

[105:18]

There's three kinds of patience. One kind of patience is patience with hardship, like headaches, extreme heat and cold. Now in America because of our consumption of petrochemical equipment, people in Houston no longer need to feel the pain of heat because everybody lives in air conditioning. But for people who don't have lots of air conditioning or heating, Pain and heat, I mean, heat and cold are really painful. Cold, you know, cold, you know, long hours of cold are really uncomfortable. Difficult to be intimate with our life when we're cold hour after hour and the cold goes into, deeply into our body.

[106:29]

And heat too. It goes on and on. It's really hard. So patience is to deal with things like cold and heat and other physical illnesses, hardships of life. That's part of patience. Another part of patience is to deal with when other beings insult us. and are cruel to us it's another kind of patience these days in America like I say especially in San Francisco where it's never really hot or cold people don't have a problem with the temperature And if they don't have physical illness of a really intense form, then mostly what I hear about is the pain they have in relationship to other people. That other people are disrespectful of them, insulting, unsupportive, don't love them or hate them or cruel to them.

[107:35]

This is mostly what I hear about. Or that they're doing the same thing to themselves. So that's another kind of thing to be patient with, to be present with. But another kind of patience is the patience which shows how patience gets ready for wisdom. It's the patient acceptance of reality. Reality is actually quite difficult to accept when you first meet it. For example... Karen was demonstrating some difficulty she was having with the teachings of reality that this no birth, no death thing was kind of hard to be patient with. It's kind of difficult to be patient with the teaching that things don't actually happen. The way things really are is they don't really happen. It's kind of difficult to accept, to be patient with that. So you work yourself up to that

[108:37]

Things are, you know, you could say, put it positive, things are really wonderful. They're beyond happening and not happening. Happening and not happening is something that our minds put on our life. Happening and not happening makes life into birth and death. So to accept that teaching, is actually to accept something that's rather shocking when you actually come close to it like when June was saying as you get close to completely giving yourself to something is also where you get close to actually opening up to reality if you hold yourself back a little bit then you hold yourself back a little bit from reality and you kind of know as you get close to it this reality might be something quite different from anything I've ever seen before, wait a minute Will that include me and my friends? Well, it won't exclude you and your friends.

[109:41]

It won't exclude you, but it also won't let you happen or not happen. And you say, well, but usually what I think of myself is as a happening, I'm a happening thing. So the happening part of me might not be around anymore, right? The non-happening you would still be there. or not still be there, because actually you hadn't even noticed it before, you would have a revelation of the non-happening you. One of the non-happening me's is you. One of the non-happening you's is us. Usually people don't think of everybody else as who they are. That's who we are. But that isn't the happening us. That doesn't happen. Looks like you're having some patience problems here.

[110:44]

This is the patience that I'm talking about. The one that you don't have right now. That's it, right there. So when you hear this kind of talk, to actually like stay present and not vibrate away from it. That's what it's like. It's the third aspect of patience. To be so present that you don't have any space to think, what is that guy talking about? Whatever, you know. He is nuts. This is really crazy. You're not present if you have time for that kind of thinking. Just like nakedly face this thing. Yeah, patience is like, you know, really, really just be there with it. With, you know. And if we're not there with difficulties, then we can't be there with reality.

[111:53]

So again, if we can't welcome difficulties... If we close to difficulties, we close to enlightenment. If we're not present with difficulties, if we're not open and present, present and open to difficulties, open and present with difficulties, then we're not open and present, we can't be open and present with reality. And, yeah, they're not different from the other. Right. Yeah. So if you close yourself to one half of a non-duality, you close yourself to the other half of a non-duality. Did you say you're still on something? You're still on intoxication. Back to no intoxication or intoxication. Take your choice. Yeah, so here's something that I discovered, and this is, I had stopped talking to some people who were into intoxication, and ten years later I met them, and there were a couple of people I said, oh, these are Buddhists who are caught on a high, a different kind of high than the one I was seeking, which was by not intoxicating them.

[113:15]

And what I realized meeting them 10 years later was that I was on a high of not taking substances, and they, in fact, after 10 years had given up. And the reason they gave was, one guy said, I tried everything. I tried this and that, and I had to keep ingesting more and more. Finally, one fine day, I just left it all and just sat. And it worked. And so it reminded me, if I had just been patient... And you were still high. Yeah, I had to then let go of my high that I was getting by surrounding myself with the people who didn't ingest. Very good. And that was the time when I finally said, prop mine isn't all that bad, I will sign it. Because I realized that by trying to stopped people from taking something, they were taking it anyway, and actually I was creating more disharmony in the whole system. Did you hear that?

[114:17]

Very good. Very good. Yeah. Not that I've found a solution to the whole... Not that you're completely... Because when I see the amount of things that get ingested in my children's school, it worries me. Yes. But I'm able to allow... the police system to say it is not helping us. I'm also able to allow those who are taking to say that it's helping them in some way. Maybe it's helping them get over their attachment to it. Who knows? Yeah. Yeah. I don't want you to... There's a lot of people for breakfast, so I don't want you to miss it. Thank you so much. And so I'll let you now go to have brunch before you have to wait too long in line. So we resume here at 11 with sitting. Thank you very much.

[115:15]

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