And you're not intimate with all these people you're causing trouble with, so that's their problem. They can live with it. We're the greatest country. If they don't like it, move off the planet. We're in charge. Go someplace else. If you don't like what we're doing here, move to Canada. If you don't like living in Canada next to us, move out of it. We're in charge. Live with us. You've got to face it. We're in charge. We're in charge. That's it. We're not going to talk to you about it. We're not going to talk to each other either. It's just really, really unhealthy, this way that you grew up in and I grew up in. It's really unhealthy. And it's getting to be more and more extreme. Seems like it. It's getting more and more. So here we are talking about reversing the process and, you know, I'm kind of old now, but if I was younger and stronger, I'd still be saying the same thing.

[01:09]

And even though I'm kind of old, I'm still kind of strong. And I could do various things still. I could still be a killer. But I don't want to be, because it's so terrible to be unkind. There's a really good article in The New Yorker about the psychological effects of killing. Really good. I mean, really good and really horrible. What happens to people who kill people? What happens to soldiers who kill? Not to mention civilians who kill enemy people who are actually shooting at them. What happens? It ruins them. We send people over to kill people People who kill the people, their life is ruined. Pretty much, that's it. Their life is shot. Pretty much. They're not going to be okay, probably, unless they really somehow can start practicing meditation big time because they've got tremendous horror now.

[02:18]

So, you know, we could be tough. Somehow we have to be energetic about not being tough. You have to be energetic and courageous about being vulnerable. Have the courage to be vulnerable. And realize it takes more courage than to just pretend like you're not, push people around. And if you do push them around, it's going to come back at you. And you're going to realize how vulnerable you are after that. But then by that time, you're going to be practically incapacitated. So it's better to admit to vulnerability than to be vulnerable. But again, we're poor little creatures, so we need a lot of support. So you have to think about what kind of agreements, what kind of boundaries, what kind of, you know, again, I maybe, when I was a kid, did I tell you that I grew up with, in a neighborhood where I was the youngest boy, other boys were older than me?

[03:22]

Did I tell you about that? Huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I was just kind of like, I grew up in this neighborhood where I was like, when I first moved there, I was like two, and they were like four, five, six, seven. And there was a bunch of boys, like maybe ten of them, and none of the other boys were my age. So I was surrounded by these bigger boys, and these bigger boys, and I had pictures of them when I was two. I used to picture me when I was two, and they were like four, five, six, seven, you know, the picture. And these boys, rather than how much stronger they were by beating up a two-year-old or beating up me when I was three or when I was four, rather than demonstrate their strength and superiority by beating me up, they decided to be nice to me instead. And they played with me, you know. They wrestled with me and played ball with me and we did various things. But they didn't... And also we had rules.

[04:23]

We had formalities. So if they were wrestling with me and they were sitting on my face, I could say, you know, tap them on the back and they'd get off. And they would do that with each other, too. So that if things got too rough, you could say, uncle, or tap, and then they would call it off. They wouldn't push it beyond what you were up for. Boundaries and rules by which we could be intimate little boys together. But these guys also, for some reason, they made up this form of not being mean to me. And they enjoyed it. And so I grew up not being terrified of big boys and thinking that I could play with them. And it wasn't going to be like the end of the world. It was really nice of them to do that. I don't know how I was so lucky. And as a result, I never really thought about beating up on little boys myself. It didn't seem like a fun thing to do. But there was a thing.

[05:24]

Uncle, you stopped then. And looking at Donald, you know, teaching yoga classes it's a very intimate thing to do to like somebody's like making a lot of effort through yoga posture and then you come and you adjust their posture you tell them something which you know really penetrates awareness in their effort but the yoga teachers have to have boundaries about and understandings of the limits of their activity in order to tolerate and for the also for the students tolerate that intimacy that happens around these on these yoga practices. And of course, you can go on and on. Psychotherapy, massage, all these things. You can really be intimate with people if you have formality. A massage therapist is vulnerable to the clients. The clients are vulnerable to the massage therapist. There's vulnerability there. But without formality, there can be harm. There can be disregard for the vulnerability and therefore harm.

[06:33]

So all these different realms of intimacy, we need to be aware of what the formality is. Is it bilateral? That's another part we consider. I also suggest the necessity of it being bilateral. It's not set up from one side and maintained from one side. And there's formalities by which to check to make sure it's not bilateral. I mean, not unilaterally. It has to be bilateral. . [...] It seems different, right? Right. Well, the form I chose is the form of not killing.

[08:07]

That's the form I chose. The gopher didn't choose the form of not killing. But the gopher would like me to follow that form. But the gopher doesn't tell me, please remember that precept of not killing. The gopher doesn't say that to me. But they do. And they're enjoying me practicing that precept. They're thriving with me following that form. But they don't... They're eating things all over the place. They're killing things. They don't have that precept. Huh? Yes, so the gophers, to the extent that they're being unilateralized in their... Intimacy with me and therefore there are they're causing outflows for themselves The gophers are they're getting in trouble because they're if they're doing that but I If I follow the precept of not killing them then I'm falling then I'm and also I Haven't checked with them But you know, but I'm I sort of have checked with them that about whether they want me to follow that precept, but you know I think they do and

[09:10]

As far as I can tell, they do not want me to kill them. If I tried to kill them, I'm pretty sure they would try to avoid me. So I think they appreciate to not kill them, and I haven't agreed with them about all the animals they're killing under the ground. But as a result, I haven't fully realized my intimacy with them because they're not practicing this way, and they're not... their intimacy with me but i would like to actually figure out a way for it to be more bilateral and for them to like you know listen to me and you know move but that's a big step you know do this my grandson because he doesn't have any kind of like commitments to me so far but I'm trying to, like, work up some format and be more bilateral with him. I was making a little bit of progress towards him doing things with me.

[10:17]

Because he's the one, actually, he's the one who said the word together with the most impact of anybody in my life. You know, it goes like this. Let's go do this. Reaches up, takes my hand and says, let's do this together. And it's very powerful to some extent. But yeah, I think another thing about these forms is to keep maintaining them. So the gopher thing is a big challenge because it's hard to get them to, it's hard to, to what extent they're being reciprocal and mutual with me from their point of view. I don't really know. but you know there's another point of view which is that these gophers might actually be great spiritual beings who have come to test me and actually they're totally devoted to me and they're just going okay can you follow the precept now

[11:33]

In the Eightfold Path, usually the first aspect of the Eightfold Path is called Right View. And one of the key ingredients of Right View is that every action has a consequence. And that teaching, that every action has consequences, is an instruction to help develop the right view, which is wisdom. And there's two kinds of right view. One is mundane right view, and the other is super mundane right view.

[12:55]

and within right view of the mundane type the teaching that every action has consequence is there but then it goes on to say that the consequences of the action and the consequences of the view which includes the consequences of acting with the understanding that actions have consequence The consequences ripen on the side of attachment. Mundane right view is beneficial. It's wholesome. It's virtuous. And the consequences of right view and the actions based on right view are on the side of attachment. so it's a mundane right view because although you understand that actions have consequence there's still some attachment because the view is mundane and the attachment is on one side attachment is towards yourself or towards another and so although it's it's a beneficial view

[14:29]

the consequences still mature on the side of attachment. In other words, they come back to what's imagined as the person who has the right view, or the person who acts independently. And the good results come back to that person, which sounds pretty good, and it is. But when we talk about super-mindane right view, it doesn't say that the consequences mature on the side of attachment, because there is no attachment. because this is right view. Actions have consequences, but the consequences don't come back to the side of attachment because there isn't attachment. So they understand that there's activity, and activities have consequences, but it isn't from the point of view of this side and that side. So there's results of one who has super mundane right view, wherein there's no attachment. The consequences don't come back. because there's no place for them to come back to.

[15:32]

The consequences go all over the place. But there are consequences and the consequences are also beneficial. When I talked to you about training your attentions to notice If the activity that you experience, to pay attention to the activity you're experiencing, to the activity you're aware of, so-called your own activity, other people's activity, your activity with people, as you watch this activity sphere, if you notice that there's some judgment Can you train your vision, your attention to sort of not get involved in that view? To confess that you have that view that there's a gain and loss involved, but not get too involved in it.

[16:39]

Not be invested in the gaining view of what's happening. And then, of course, not be... not be invested or concerned about the gaining view. And if you are concerned, if you do have this view, or if you are concerned with this view, It's good to not get involved in the view, to not be concerned with the view. If you can not be concerned with the view of gain and loss, this is more or less the end of all folks. But as I mentioned and as you've mentioned, It's so natural to see everything in terms of gain and loss, or see almost everything, see almost all your activities in terms of gain and loss. And it's so natural to be concerned in that view, to be worried and caught up in that view.

[17:42]

So how, you know, it's very difficult to like, how would you become free of that? well one way you become free of it by being mindful of the process but how could you be mindful of the process because when you're really concerned with gain and loss time for mindfulness unless it would promote the gain and loss which again as soon as your mindfulness is in the service of gain and loss you lose your mindfulness to some extent but it's not really that you're so powerful and you determine be able to be mindful of all this but mindfulness can happen and when mindfulness does happen that there's gain loss point of view that mindfulness makes possible the confession and repentance of that point of view and when there's mindfulness of concern or loss or other people's gain and loss when there's mindfulness of that there can be freedom of this

[18:47]

of these conditions which create, you know, bondage and suffering. Under your power, you might think, gee, that seems real hard, but actually mindfulness isn't under your power, and it isn't under somebody else's power. It's under the power of your actual relationship with beings. It's because of your actual relationship with all beings that you're able to be mindful. Mindfulness is a gift to you, not from you to you, but a gift to you for all the things that make you a mindful person. And you are sometimes mindful, and so am I. But I don't create the person My mindfulness is not self-produced. My mindfulness is something that arises in the world dependent on conditions other than itself.

[19:53]

And the way I am when I'm mindful is produced by conditions. So this practice of seeing things in such a way that you're not involved in gain and loss, even if the idea of gain and loss has arisen in your awareness, that way of being with that which is not involved is the practice of a Buddha. So training, the training of awareness towards seeing things not in terms of gain and loss, the training of awareness of seeing things freely That's the training of awareness of a Buddha. That's Buddha training of awareness. And the Buddha which involves this training of awareness and this training of awareness which is the awareness of the Buddha is part of the Buddha.

[21:04]

The Buddha awareness also is aware of other beings and feels compassion for other beings and wants to practice with other beings to unfold and implement and manifest the compassion. The practice of the Buddha is not a practice that the Buddha does by herself. The practice of a Buddha is the practicing in the company of and together with all living beings. That's the practice of a Buddha. And in fact, we are always practicing in the company of, we are always acting in the company of and together with all beings. And this person, the way we are in the company of and together with all beings, that way of practicing manifests mindfulness

[22:08]

of any involvement in gain and loss and confesses it and notices that it's causing trouble and wishes to become free of it but the wishing to become free of it is not coming from me over here on my side the wishing to become free of it comes because together with everyone and the Buddha wishes to become free of it and the Buddha is practicing together with everyone so when you wish to become free of being concerned with gain and loss that's Buddha manifesting in you but it's not you manifesting Buddha by your own power that mindfulness manifesting because you're practicing together with everybody just like Buddha's do So part of the way that you're to allow the training process to occur, part of the way to allow the change of attention from seeing gain and loss and being primarily concerned with making gain and loss go certain ways for certain people, especially yourself, of course, part of the way to get over this

[23:44]

harmful way of seeing, this unwise way of seeing things, is to realize that you're not going to get over it by your own power. You're not even going to wish for it by your own power. But you're also not going to wish for it by the power of one Buddha or two Buddhas or one person or two persons. you're going to get over it by the power of everything in the universe other than you. So part of what lets that happen is that you let it happen, that you allow yourself to see the world that way. And again, you're not in charge of, and I'm not in charge of making you be in charge of, you can't make yourself open to things being like that. I can't make you open to the practice of a Buddha.

[24:49]

You can't make yourself open to the practice of a Buddha. I can't make myself open to a practice of a Buddha. And yet there is some kind of open to the practice of Buddha. And I do actually open to the idea, the perspective of practicing in the company of and together with everyone. I sometimes, in that way, that I'm open to that. But I don't make myself. I am made that way because of hearing about that from others. And now you're hearing about it from me. And you may have heard about it from me before, and you may hear about it from me again, and you may hear it by reading certain texts, certain Zen texts, or Dogen Zenji and others. And read other texts where the Buddha tells you about this, where the Buddha says, I practice together with all beings. And you're invited into the practice of the Buddha, because the Buddha's practicing with all beings.

[25:53]

That's you. The Buddha's practicing with you, so you're invited to practice with the Buddha. The Buddha's practicing with everybody, so you're invited to practice with everybody. The Buddha's activity is the activity of everybody, so you're invited into the activity of everybody. You're invited. And accepting the invitation and entering that realm is another way to see loss. When you're practicing together with everybody, gain and loss doesn't make much sense. Although you can still imagine it, you don't get very involved in it. And yet there's still activity here. so last week i also talked about i didn't say it this way tonight i'll say it this way well how come we don't open to this all the time why don't we just open to this practice of a buddha which is simply that we're practicing together with everybody all the time and that that that's actually the practice which ends up blows is the practice that is practicing together with everybody the practice which i do by myself doesn't

[27:15]

That's the perspective of outflows. That's the perspective of gain. What I do by myself is the same as a practice or the activity of being concerned with gain and loss. How come I don't open to that? And I suggest to you last week that part of the reason why it's hard to open to it is because opening to this is opening to your vulnerability, all these people you're practicing with. If we're going to get on a boat together, If you're getting on a boat by yourself, like I read when I was in high school, when I was in college and thinking of leaving Minnesota to come to practice Zen, I kind of wanted it to be a group event. I wanted my friends to come with me to practice Zen. I didn't want to leave them. And I read this thing, I think somebody said it anyway, maybe it was Thoreau. When you travel by yourself, you can go right now. When you travel with others, you have to wait for them. anyway at that time i went by myself sing more like trying to practice more like going with everybody so i'm waiting for everybody if you practice with everybody and you want to go someplace you have to wait you're vulnerable to them because if they don't want to go they're going to slow you down because you're going with them and they're going with you so it's kind of like inconvenient to practice with everybody sometimes

[28:42]

The practice of practicing together is the practice of being vulnerable to other people, and it's the practice of them being vulnerable to you. And it's hard to realize... In some occasions, not always hard, but it may be hard to realize that other people are vulnerable to you. Like I was... When I was... When I was young, I... I don't remember exactly, but when the doctor, he put the stuff in her chest, I don't remember the doctor saying, this may be cold. But now they say that to you. They say, this may be cold. And the doctor now, when the doctor does certain things to you, I have a female doctor. She says, I'm going to do this. She told me before she does certain stuff. She said, I'm going to touch it. And I'm going to touch it there. They didn't used to say that. They used to just do it. And when you have an MRI or something like that, they say, you know, this thing will be cold on you, or this may be somewhat uncomfortable.

[29:55]

They used to say it when they give you shots, this may hurt a little. Remember that one? This may hurt a little. And they try to describe, they want, because they recognize that you're vulnerable to them. They recognize that they can hurt you because they're going to touch you. But now, at least in the Bay Area or whatever, people who are doing things to you intimately, who are touching you and so on, they often talk to you about it beforehand to get you ready for this thing and get your permission. They say, can I do that, you know? But that makes things harder in a way, you know, like everything you do, like, I have to talk to him about all these different effects that this might have, you know, or I'll just do it. Practice of a Buddha is the way things really are, is the way Buddhas practice.

[31:04]

Buddhas practice together with everybody, but some other people think that they don't practice together with everybody, they think they practice just with a few people. That's the practice of not a Buddha. Not a Buddha is to practice just with one or two and maybe a couple of Buddhas. And maybe no Buddhas. The Buddhas practice together with everybody and all the Buddhas. So the Buddhas practice in vulnerability. The Buddhas are vulnerable to everybody's suffering. And the Buddhas also realize that everybody can be touched Buddha. Buddhas realize that if they walk into a room and go up to somebody, somebody might go, yikes, a Buddha. People could be frightened of a Buddha. Can you imagine? Sixteen feet tall, gold, you know, flames around. Scary, right? But they're not afraid of people being vulnerable to them and they're not afraid of being vulnerable to people.

[32:11]

They take it into account. They accept it. They're not afraid of intimacy. They're not the ones who are not intimate with us. And then nobody's not intimate with us, it's just that some people think they're not. The people who think they're not are called the unenlightened people. The people who think they're not vulnerable to us and think we're not vulnerable to them, those are the unenlightened people. And most of us are sometimes unenlightened that way, right? Sometimes we think we're not vulnerable to somebody. Or even when we feel vulnerable to somebody, we kind of feel like, I'm drawing a line here on this vulnerability. It's enough of this. What was his name? Lou, Lou, the beat poet Lou. Lou what? Lou Welch, yeah, Lou Welch.

[33:13]

He wrote this poem. He was walking through San Francisco one day, and he saw this African-American man sitting on a porch. And he says, I can't stand to see one more of those things. You know, the next time I see something like that, I'm out of here. You know, that man, he was vulnerable to that man. I don't want to see, I don't want to have some guy in the street getting to me like that. I'm not going to put up with that anymore. Basically, that's what I remember from that poem. And I don't know if it was a day later, two days later, a month later, but I think he saw something like that again. We don't know exactly where, but we think he just walked into the Sierras or walked into the Nevada desert or something. He could not stand to be vulnerable.

[34:18]

He was aware of his vulnerability. He couldn't tolerate it. It's either just overwhelming or inconvenient, somewhere between there. Can't stand to be vulnerable to other people's suffering and also can't stand that other people are vulnerable to our suffering and other people are vulnerable to our words, to our breath, to our hands, to our body movements. It's hard to stand that. So then when we move back from that, we move back from the practice of being, practicing together with everyone. Okay? So I'm highly recommending for me and you the practice of the Buddha, which is the practice together with everyone. And that perspective goes with not being concerned with gain and loss, which doesn't go with getting anything done.

[35:27]

Things will get done, but that's not our main concern. Our main concern is to tune into the spiritual dimension of practicing together with everybody. But the price of admission to that realm is opening up. in intimacy with everybody. Everybody? Even you know who? Yes. Anyway, that's really hard. And that's, so that's what led me up last week to say, in order to do this, formality. Formality itself is not the point. The point is the practice of a Buddha. The point is to be able to practice without outflows, to live without outflows. But to open to them is to... We need some protection which formality offers. It isn't that you... It isn't that I put up a boundary between you and me.

[36:30]

It's that we put up a boundary between you and me. We put up a boundary. So we're still aware... and the vulnerability but we've got this boundary we've got this formality which we build together and that makes the vulnerability still there but we can tolerate it I'm not an expert on autism maybe some of you are but my sense of autism is that some people in a way, are just overwhelmed by normal social interactions. Like, you know, it's kind of... Just to walk up to some friend, like I'm looking at Lee now, and he's got his eyebrows are kind of lifted, kind of looks like this, kind of alert, you know? To actually look at somebody in the face and, like, deal with all that happens as the person blinks and smiles and frowns, that's actually...

[37:39]

experience actually and autistic people like just don't know how to do it i mean it's just too much they you know they turn away and start doing you know memorizing numbers backwards or something and doing you know high speed mathematical calculations or something which is a lot easier than to like deal with somebody's face for them they can't a lot of them how we're able to like look at each other and deal with all the signals they just it's overwhelming to them you ever heard about that And this one really interesting case is a woman who's a highly intelligent autistic person. And she loves animals. And she's very sensitive also to how difficult animals have, difficult animals have. And she actually designed cattle chutes for slaughterhouses, which she designs them so that the cattle move toward the slaughtering in such a way that they don't know beforehand that they're going to get slaughtered so they don't die frightened.

[38:45]

Did you ever hear about her? She's featured in the New Yorker. And she also designed a hug machine for herself. She loves to be hugged. We all do, sometimes. And she did, sometimes. The problem with her is that in the middle of a hug with a normal human, she sometimes would get overwhelmed by the experience and panic because she'd like, once the hug started, you know, when's it going to end? You know, like, is this hugging feeling going to go on forever? She would be tempted. So she actually was afraid to be hugged by anybody because it was like an intense experience and she didn't have a sense of how to negotiate the hug. So she actually built a hug machine so she could go in and have this thing hug her, like this big machine that was covered with carry cloth or something, which would wrap around her and squeeze on her and she could squeeze back, but she could turn it off. She built it in such a way that even overwhelmed she could turn it off and it would release her she wanted the contact but she didn't know what the normal human what do you how do you how do you negotiate the hug so she wasn't able to have a normal human but she had a hugging machine much was very sensitive but easily overwhelmed so we can handle like a lot of us anyway can handle a hug with some people right

[40:09]

but being hugged by everybody that's too much for most of us in order to be hugged by everybody in order to be hugged by all buddhas in order to hug everybody we need some formality by which we can kind of adjust the hug otherwise it would be overwhelming to say okay everybody i'm open and vulnerable to you and you're open and vulnerable to me yes yes that's right I need some formality to negotiate that tense interdependency. So in actual practice, formalities are what we need in order to actually practice the practice of the Buddha. So I kind of asked you last week and I asked you again, the question is what kind of formal agreements, commitments, structures, vows, contracts would allow or promote trusting the vulnerability and intensity of interdependency might be tolerable and, of course, beneficial.

[41:29]

what kind of formality is necessary in order to prudently and reasonably risk and completely realize our actual intimacy. And part of what I also was on the verge of bringing up or did bring up last week is one of the that either allows or promotes this kind of reasonable risk is being bilateral with people. Thinking of ways to do that, you know. You might think of doing something with somebody maybe something formal but what they feel about it the formality you know or put it this way that that formal structure of bilateral bilaterality that is a key structure in building other forms to allow and promote to help us tolerate maybe that mutuality

[43:05]

is perhaps you know one of the first points in constructing contracts and commitments with people that would promote um of intimacy you know one sentence we could say it promotes a vulnerability we don't want to promote vulnerability we sometimes talk about promoting intimacy but i really think that you don't have to promote vulnerability you don't promote intimacy it's more a matter of opening to it and letting it be realized not being afraid of it not invulnerable which is impossible or not intimate which is impossible so how does how to set up forms form or ceremonies or rituals of mutuality in order to build other kinds of forms which can support this. And it crossed my mind a couple of times.

[44:07]

I published a book together with Donald and Linda at Radinal Press. And we actually have a formal contract which to actually work out the formal contract. And going back and forth so that the contract would be mutual. Because actually when you publish a book with somebody, if an author publishes a book with a publisher, it's kind of an intimate relationship. What the author does could hurt the publisher. If the author plagiarized, that could hurt the publisher, right? Maybe? So the publisher has to have understandings about what to do in a case like that. the money or rights about doing certain aspects, like the author may want to do this or do that, but that could hurt the publisher, so the publisher wants to get the author to agree, you know, that they won't do this or that.

[45:13]

It doesn't mean they won't do this or that, but they agree that they won't, so they have that to work on. But working that out is, and making it really neutral, so you really, you know, you're aware that the other person could be hurt by you, and you take that, you, you're almost equally concerned with hurting them as them hurting you. You're almost equally concerned of not taking advantage of them, concerned that they won't take advantage of you. Or equally concerned about how your intimacy with them might go as theirs with you. And it was a lot of work. There was some difficulty. And I must admit, I didn't really want to go through that. I didn't want to make to get into all the details of the contract. But, in fact, now I see that as a formality that makes possible the intimacy of this relationship of making a book together.

[46:16]

I didn't make that book being upright by myself. I did not. I mean, it's so clear that I didn't. And it was clear to me all the way through. I gave these talks at Tassajara on the precepts based on a translation that I didn't do myself. And then that person I did it with said, you should give some talks about this text we translated, this old text. You should give talks about it and relate it to modern day. So because he suggested that, I asked the people at Tassajara and they said, yeah, they wanted me to. So I gave the talks. And then the talks weren't just me giving the talk, but them. the dialogues, and then somebody transcribed these talks. Somebody taped them and somebody transcribed them. And then Donald asked me, you know, do you have something that we can make a book out of? And I said, well, I've got these talks. Well, maybe they could be.

[47:18]

So then people started transcribing, editing them. And all these people worked together, and then we hired an editor, and then edited the stuff, and then Donald looked at it. all this work happened this book happened but for me fortunately it was very easy for me to see that i'm not making this book all i'm practicing with all these people and also this book was not this book was not i didn't even know who this book was for this book was also for a bunch of people i didn't even know As a result of, since I wasn't doing it myself and since it wasn't really my book, I was about how to do the book differently. And if it didn't make sense or somebody wanted to suggest something different, I was kind of open because it wasn't my book. And I wasn't like, you know, moving my liver around. Although in a sense, my liver was being moved, but it wasn't being moved just by me or just by somebody else.

[48:19]

Kind of a good book, it seems like. And I don't mind saying that because I don't feel like I did it. The reason why I say it is because people said it is, not because I think so. And someday I'm going to read it. You know? I've read little parts of it in the process. You know? I have. I read it. And oftentimes when I read it, I go, wow. And I have tears come to my eyes for some reason. But it's not because I wrote it. But there's a lot of formality went into making that book, into the creation of that book. And that formality also allowed it to be sort of not so much my thing. start thinking before it's too late what formalities what agreements what commitments what vows what structures what contracts what what kind of things can you make with whom when for how long and what about that will allow you ability to one person to two people to three people to four people to ten people to a hundred people to a thousand people to a million people to a hundred million people

[49:48]

to all the people on the planet, all the animals, and all the spiders, and all the cockroaches, and all the gophers. So I'm out there in the yard last week after class, down there in the dirt, getting my hands dirty, clearing away these mold, these mounds of dirt. But you're there with me when I'm clearing the dirt. Some of you missed that class, but it was in the gophers. And I had some problem with, I'm vulnerable to the gophers. The gophers, you know, dig into this little yard I'm trying to make. And the gophers are vulnerable to me because I can kill them. I can think that way. But also, intimate with those gophers and not hurt them and have them not hurt me too much because it's not really that bad to be down there. spending my dear life time, you know, the so-and-so, such-and-such guy who's down there clearing away piles of dirt and stones from the earth and taking them someplace else because the gophers made these piles.

[51:05]

But he's also, when he's doing that, he's thinking of you people. You're there with me when my hands are touching that dirt. I remember you. I remember talking to you, and I know most of you don't want me to kill the gophers, right? Kill the gophers? No? Yeah, I didn't think anybody would want me to. I know some people, like I told you, a lot of people, when they hear about my gopher problem, they do not want the senior Dharma teacher of Zen Center to be killing gophers. They don't like it. not kill gophers, actually. And they give me, they go out and they buy these, they cost $49, these beepers. And they give them to me, the birthday presents, here, it's a beeper. Use this, don't kill the gophers. Not just by telling me, but by my vulnerability to them to know that it would discourage people if I killed gophers.

[52:09]

What are you doing in the hardware store? What are you doing here? In the poison department. I'm lost. Actually looking for the fertilizer. I'm going to put fertilizer in the ground for the gophers. Make it richer. Organic fertilizer. What about the idea of relaxing with the mounds? I thought you were going to level it? What I'm doing is I actually clear, not level, I pick up the dirt and take the dirt away. Not level, just take the dirt away. Is that OK with them? Don't they need to look around and see what's going on? Sorry. I don't know if they do. All right. Huh? It's like garlic.

[53:12]

So anyway, that's what I cleared away the holes. And then I went to LA last and I looked, and there was no new holes. And I don't know what's going on. But it's all quiet on the eastern front. No new holes in the last few days. But see, now I've got this guy named Lee who's now, like, kind of insinuating. I mean, the gophers by taking away their little mounds, their little empires, their little path. What? It's okay. No, no. It's okay. You're being, you're aware that you could hurt my feelings, right, when you said that? So you were doing kind of sweetly, weren't you? Yeah. And I think that much. So you're being a little formal with me. Mm-hmm. He received the precepts, so he's not speaking fault. He's not slandering. He's not praising himself to my expense.

[54:15]

He's just saying, well, what about their little castles? And dismantle their castles without being able to make a formal contract with them. But they're welcome to come and discuss it with me. They don't want to. So I did that. But then I'm telling you, and you can question it. And then I can say to you, please need those mounds. Show me studies that people have actually been able to prove that gophers have psychological problems if they don't have mounds. I don't know if they do, but I feel like they don't because of the number of mounds that they've made over the 17 years I lived in the house. All the mounds have been taken away. And underneath the lawn is this massive gopher empire. When you walk the lawn, it's kind of like you're walking on a trampoline.

[55:19]

It's just got tremendous number of activations underneath it. I even sometimes think, well, actually, the gophers are really doing a favor because they're actually digging under the earth, aerating it. And who knows how this is all going to work out? I have to look to see, you know, is there gain and loss in me down there? And actually, to some extent, when I'm just touching this dirt and clearing it away, I am kind of intimate with the gophers. My hands are right down there near their top of their little roof, mound on top. And if I have some sense of, like, wishing to lose or gain something around the gophers, then I can see that. But having you there with me while I'm doing this helps. Helps me feel good about the effort. I don't actually feel so good about just sitting there and looking at the mounds and not participating and just sort of letting it go.

[56:26]

I don't feel you there. I didn't feel you as closely just looking at the mounds and not thinking it looks very good as I do when I actually reach down there, touch the mound, clear them away. then now you'll be there with me even more because you said something. You have homework. Yeah, you have homework. And also, as you know, there's not a Bodhisattva precept which says don't clear gopher mounds. It says do not take life. It's not given, but I kind of think you could say, well, I live in this and the gophers are giving me these mounds to take away. so again I'm but I'm also asking you a question which is can you imagine formal contracts structures vows agreements commitments that would help you be able to tolerate your intimacy and your vulnerability to one or more living being

[57:39]

human or not human i'm asking you to think of that and tell me over the next the rest of your life tell me about these things that you can think about because once you think of them then you can talk to somebody about them and implement it because again if you think of something it doesn't you keep it all to yourself it's not going to to think of it and put it out there to get feedback so i'm one person that's asking you Even if the thing wasn't with me, you could include me by telling me your idea. If you're thinking of a formal contract to make with that weren't directly involved, and the people who were directly involved, of course, they would be, of course, the most important people to talk to about it. OK? So that's kind of like your homework assignment for the rest of your life. to think about who you're going to do this with, what kind of things you're going to do this with. If you don't, I also welcome you to disagree with me and tell me you don't need formality to be intimate with people.

[58:46]

You don't need to be formality in order to tolerate vulnerability. I'm willing to argue with you about that. And, you know, I'd be surprised if I didn't feel that way, but but I'm vulnerable to your comments. I am. Yes. Jeff. You noticed your vulnerability to your girlfriends? And that triggered what they were talking about, and what Jay talked about. And so I have to worry that they're a contract, or in fact, it's a formality.

[59:52]

They don't need to think, okay, we'll get it. Even in Samoan, Samoa, it was very, so I did that one work once, but once when I, I had to go first, and patient, and I had to do it three times, and I felt a lot of pain, and strong pain in the ear. I would want to turn away and run away and quote about her being angry, but not separate myself from her. So, the thing that I learned is that poverty is creating poverty. And if I may say, when you don't feel vulnerable to somebody, or you think they're not vulnerable to you,

[61:05]

set up certain formalities with them, you may then be able to see that you are vulnerable and that they're vulnerable to you. Or you sometimes can't see it. Once you have a certain formal relationship with people, suddenly you realize your vulnerability. For example, some people might not feel vulnerable to each other until they got married. After they're married and make this commitment, then they start feeling more of the vulnerability. They were before, but they didn't even notice it. So sometimes you feel it and then you realize you need formality in order to tolerate or be open to it. In other cases, you don't really feel it until you make the commitment, receiving the precepts. You may not feel vulnerable about certain things until you make commitments to practice them. And I wanted to also mention another, here's an example which I mentioned before, but I want to mention it again in this context. I've mentioned it before, but now maybe you can understand more why I said it, is that if you're in a class with me, I ask you to tell me if you're not going to be at class.

[62:28]

If you can't, tell me before the class or send a message at the time of class telling me as much as you can about the reason for your not being here. And if you're going to miss a class in the future, you know ahead of time, a week ahead of time or two weeks ahead of time, telling me, when you tell me, your little bit of experience is a vulnerability to me. When you come and you tell me, well, first of all, you can tell me, I'm thinking of not coming to class next week. rather than, I'm not coming to class. So it's a little bit more vulnerable to say, I'm thinking of not coming to class. How do you feel about that? That's more vulnerable. But it's somewhat vulnerable just to say, I'm not going to come to class. That's more vulnerable than not telling me at all and just not coming. But if you don't tell me you don't come, I'm vulnerable to you when you don't come. It hurts me to some extent, or it hurts me a little, but it

[63:33]

it definitely has an impact on me whenever you miss a class. Whether you tell me or not, it has an impact. And so I'm saying to you, I think it'd be good for you to know that I'm vulnerable to you, that what you do or don't do has an effect on me. And it can hurt me. It doesn't always hurt me. Some of the things you do are quite pleasant. Like when you come to class, it generally almost When you don't come to class, you can't hurt me. And two weeks ago or three weeks ago, everybody from Sacramento didn't come by coincidence. And Donald and I were kind of experiencing some pain, you know, when none of them came. So I called some of them, and I told them about this, and I said, tell your friends. At the time, and I called Gary, and he said, what number should I call? And I gave him the number, and he told me, told me last week, and this week about you know Gwen situation and she needs more rest so she's you know didn't come and do that but I'm also saying let's make it mutual to see if you agree because I'm not just I'm just I'm not because you're vulnerable to me if I just say okay this is a rule I'm putting this on you I don't want to be that way so all I'm bringing this up and I'm asking for this I'm also saying I want this to be mutual

[64:59]

say I want you to know that I welcome you to say I don't want to do that you can say that so that's an agreement we don't make that's a contract we don't sign that's a commitment which although I'm requesting it you may not be willing to do it that's mutual that can be mutual too that you don't agree we don't so we have that in some sense we have the form of you not agreeing so you know Here it is. This is just an example of something I, generally speaking, would like from you. And then to learn how to do it is another formality. Of course, if I'm not going to come to class, of course I would think to talk to you about it. Like I missed that one time when I went to Europe in the middle of the class. But to some extent, I should say, well, you know, this class was scheduled not to have a meeting this time, so we're going to go with that, okay?

[66:08]

So we have a six-week class. We offer that. You sign up. That's kind of an agreement. I say, I'm going to come for these six weeks or these seven weeks. That's an understanding that I'm making this. Are you committing to all the classes, some of the classes? You may say, I'd like to do the class, but I don't want to come to all the classes. I want to miss two. and the two I want to miss are these two, and this is the reason why I'd like to do it." And you might go, That is like, I don't want to practice this intimately with this person. I'm too busy. Okay, I understand. But at least you're recognizing that you don't want to do it. You don't want to get in there and make that statement. But that's a clear thing. And I'm saying, this particular thing I'm asking for, I'm not necessarily asking for you to call me every time you get a haircut. But with some people, I ask them to talk to me about before they get a haircut.

[67:14]

They're in a different training situation than when they're in Zen practice. And some people are up for that, that they actually discuss things like that with me. You know, Stephen has a beard, and Ron has a beard, and Josh has a beard, okay? And Jeff has a beard, right? No. Just a shadow. You have a goatee shadow. And Joel's growing a beard. But I didn't say to you guys that I wanted you to discuss with me your facial hair and how you can But I might. I might say that to you sometime. I might say, would you talk to me before you grow hair on your face? I might say that to you, and you might say, okay. I'm going to keep it kind of for the foreseeable future.

[68:23]

And if I decide to let it grow significantly longer, I'll talk to you about it. You know, when you're intimate with somebody, the length of their hair and their body has an impact on you. Can you understand that? How people wear their hair, what clothes they wear, has an effect on you when you're intimate with them. You're vulnerable to people. And it's not a clear... It doesn't always work the same way, but anything you do could have an effect on the person. Pardon? What's it?

[69:24]

415-383-3816. And if I'm not there and you leave a message, you did your part. And Donald gives me a clock to call you back and say, you know, something to you i i don't i don't necessarily assume when i get this class list that everybody welcomes me to call them but i do sometimes call people that are in these classes going and sometimes i call them if they missed a class and say you have any feedback generally speaking uh... i get people's answering machines these days and some people don't call back So those people, I don't know if they wanted to talk, but a lot of people do call back and they appreciate it. I have never heard somebody feel like, you know, I really felt offended that you called me.

[70:26]

I haven't heard that yet, but it could happen, you know. That's part of the vulnerability of someone to feel like, I gave my telephone number to Donald, but I never thought you'd call me. I mean, I feel, you know, but so far that hasn't happened. How's it going? You mean if I say to you, I'd like you to let me know if you're going to not be in class, is the reason why I want to relevant?

[71:36]

Not necessarily, but I think part of the mutuality, part of the bilateralness of it, is that if you wanted to know, what the reason was that you would be welcome to ask. Because I'm just... I would probably ask you in the first place, may I talk to you about something? You know, something which is sort of... I feel kind of vulnerable bringing it up, and it's kind of like you could feel vulnerable in me talking to you about this, too, that I'm asking. You know, you come to class, and you pay a fee, and then you make the effort to come to class. That's already quite a bit of effort from your side, but in some sense I'm saying... You know, I want you to know more about what's involved here, potentially. That to actually accomplish, you know, the Buddhist wisdom involves relationship and involves formal aspect, which has formal aspects. So it's not, yeah, we have, but, you know, it's kind of like not clear what it is.

[72:43]

It's sort of like whatever. No, we need more than that to verify our understanding. Like, it doesn't matter if you come on time or not. That's another issue. We didn't clarify that. But this is the time. We're going to work with that. And you can say the reason, but if you ask me in this case, I'd say, well, it's kind of like when somebody isn't here, I don't know what the reason is unless you tell me. If people don't come, I don't know. Are you sick? Are you upset? Is the teaching irrelevant? Did you have a car accident? It could be all those things, but anyway, when we're in the same together, there's some, our destinies are interwoven, at least in some sense, at least for the period of the class, and oftentimes before and after. Okay? So whatever you do has an effect on me. any old time but particularly under this situation it's going to have even more of an effect because of this particular structure of this class and if you want to try to minimize the effect you have on me then commitments to me and then you can then you can kind of pretend like you don't have much effect on me so that's one less person in your life that you're that you have any effect on

[74:09]

But then that person is one less person you're having a Buddha relationship with. The more you recognize your effect on people, the more... So commitments help you actually understand that you're connected to somebody. You are already, but without commitments, it's kind of like we can avoid facing it. Precepts. The precepts are really the way you want to live. But without committing to them, it's like... But you're welcome to ask questions, including the question of... One of the most important questions to ask is, may I ask a question? May I ask a question about you, about your motivation, about what you're... Basically, ask the question you really want to ask. Ask what you're really interested in, but also do it formally.

[75:11]

Because if it's a really intimate question, the person maybe needs some preparation. A lot of times people come to me, and I told you before, they come to me and say, now are you... May I give you some feedback that might be difficult for you to hear? People often say that to me. You know? Because I say to people, please give me feedback. I ask for that. I don't just say, give me feedback, although in some sense I should say it every few seconds. But I'm saying to you now, please give me feedback. And then after I say that, people come to me and then they say, even after I ask for it, they say, may I give you some feedback that might be difficult for you? And I almost always, again, as you've seen me demonstrate before, I almost always like set up straight and I'll adjust my posture and get my posture in a kind of open way get balanced and settled and then I usually say okay yes I do please go ahead I'm ready and I don't I don't so much tighten up I try to relax because that makes it easier for it to come through and then they tell me you've

[76:30]

They're going to go ahead and tell me. But they usually ask me. It is difficult. It sometimes is painful. But it does help if they ask beforehand and give me a chance to get ready to let it in. To let it in. So that's a nice formality to have with people. Before you say something or ask something which is deep or personal or to say, you know, may I and are you ready now? Okay, here it comes. I'm starting to talk now. Here it is. So anyway, it does have an effect on me when you sign up for the class and then don't come. It does have an effect on me and it helps me

[77:32]

And I appreciate it if you give me the feedback of telling me why you're not going to miss and afterwards tell me that helps too. It just helps me. It makes it easier for me to understand what's going on. You just give me that information. A letter's okay too. So face-to-face, telephone, letter, tell Donald. You know, like in this case, Gwen got the message to me through Gary, her husband. And then Gary told me last week that Yvonne missed last week because of her yoga class, and you're going to miss next week because of her yoga class. So he told me that, so I know that. So, you know, cool. Cool. We're together. Me and Gary and Gwen and Yvonne are like, you know, about this. Then I asked them, and they gave it. Thank you. I can say no big deal, but it is a big deal. It's a big deal. I mean, it's not a big deal, but it's a big deal. It's a little thing, actually, but it's a big thing.

[78:34]

And it really helps me, and they made an effort to keep, you know, do this with me. We're doing, like, Buddha practice together. It's cool. I think. What do you think? Are you enjoying it? What do you think, Yvonne? You look like you're not so sure. But what do you think of the practice of doing the practice? Yeah, right. No, it's not what we're used to. We're not used to it. We're used to practicing as a sentient being. We're used to practicing as unenlightened beings by ourselves, by our own power. That's our usual way. No, it's not what we're used to. We're not used to it. We're used to practicing as a sentient being. We're used to practicing as unenlightened beings. By ourselves, by our own power, that's our usual way.

[79:38]

This is like learning not so much to be a Buddha, but to enter into Buddha's practice. It's a new thing. It's a big switch. So the formality will help us make the transition. and make again and again make the transition to shift from the unenlightened outflow way of being together to this not more vulnerable but just daring to face the reality of our vulnerability getting used to it and also being patient with ourselves in that we can't construct at a certain amount of formality. That's the other side of it. See, I just can't face the intimacy with you yet because we don't have enough formality yet. I have to have certain understandings with you because I'm going to be that intimate with you.

[80:43]

That's why, you know, right? Go through a big thing to, like, you know, live in the same house with somebody, publish a book together with somebody, go into business with somebody, all these kinds of things where you're getting really intimate and vulnerable. It takes a lot of time to reasonably safely enter into the intimacy. To jump into the situation before you check to see the agreement, then sometimes people really get hurt. oh i thought you i thought this meant that you i didn't say that you you know and then there's a big [...] pain and then people sometimes freak out and hurt each other even more because they feel so disappointed because they didn't talk it over and they got real involved without discussing that the other person would do this, this, and this, because they seem like a good person.

[81:48]

So you just assume that they would do that. But they didn't say they would. But even if they say they will, it doesn't mean that they will. It just means that you made an agreement. And they know they made this agreement, and the agreement is a point to help you work with it. And also, as you make agreements with people, you learn about them. And they learn about themselves, and they learn about you. So in the process of making the agreement, of making the contract, of making the formal arrangements, they're in that process, too. And you know, this person's really impatient setting up this thing, and so on. You really want to go through with this, all this trouble, and inviting everybody else to come and watch this? Really want to go through this? I see Maria and Carmen. Did you have a question? And Patty and Arlene. Huh?

[82:49]

It passed? Pardon? I thought you raised your hand. You didn't? But that was it? And you want to say something? Okay. This is cool. It's interesting that somebody asked you, what was the why behind the question? And then I learned, oh, not because I'm not taught to tell you about it. And you're going to be saying, not because my kids are not classed. Sounds like you're going to be taught that as a parent. So, you know, what? That's a way what? It doesn't build intimacy with me because if you build it with me, well, I don't tell everybody why you're not here.

[84:27]

Sometimes I might if I thought it was okay. And you might hear about that and like it or not like it. So in the case of Sean behind you, you know Sean is Lynn's son. So Sean's here, so this is... I don't know if I said, can I, you know, Sean is okay if I let people know that you're Lynn's son. But I did say, you know, I asked him because he looked like Lynn and he hadn't seen him before. So I said, are you Lynn's son? So that was all in the open. And we asked him to discuss his mother's condition in class. And, you know, do you feel comfortable talking about what happened with your mother? But anyway, that worked out. But again, I'm asking for feedback. If that was too much for you, I'd like your feedback on that. But anyway, if you're intimate with me and I'm intimate with them, then that will develop your intimacy with them. And then again, the formality, part of the formality is if you tell me something about why you're not in class, you also can tell me if you want to.

[85:30]

Don't tell the other people that The reason why I'm not classed is because I'm having an operation. I don't want them all to know. If you wanted to tell me that, if you didn't want to tell me, that would also be part of it. That would be another formality, another agreement that you'd say, and I would call you back and say, okay, I appreciate you telling me, and I won't tell them. So confidentiality is okay. But Is it part of the deal? And it can be. I mean. Oh, I don't want to have. how, um, how, um, the, uh, the top 20% just want to feel a responsibility to make sure that other people are blocked in that area.

[86:57]

And, um, it's, But they wouldn't fall in the gopher hole? Yeah, I'm totally into that. I'm totally into providing a nice, even surface for children to walk on. yeah yeah yeah and and i appreciate that it's hot it takes effort for you to come in particular people coming from sacramento if you guys didn't come i would certainly understand

[87:58]

It's a big trip to come down here, and sometimes you just nod for it. It's easy to understand, but still, even though it's easy to understand, still, it's not so difficult to make a telephone call as to drive 90 miles. So if you're going to save the 90-mile trip, make just a short telephone call. But I understand that, too. Sometimes you can't do that. But at least you understand, I want you to, and if you don't want to do it, I would like you to tell me you don't want to do it. And if you don't want to tell me you don't want to do it, what do you want to tell me? What kind of relationship do you want? And maybe the kind of relationship you want to have is, I do not want anything to do with you. Say, okay, so what are you in the class for? Why do you come to class if you don't want anything to do with me? Yes? Tell me, tell me. What is the reason? You can also call my assistant.

[89:24]

At Green Gulch, if you want to get in touch with me, you can call Green Gulch and get the number of my assistant, give me messages through my assistant. Yeah. Yes. Right. Yeah. Right. . I was thinking about that today.

[90:36]

I was running in the hills at Green Gulch. I was being quite active. I was running up and down the hills. And I was thinking, part of what I was thinking about was before I went running, I actually put myself in the corpse pose, and I thought about, what kind of exercise do you want to do today? I thought, well, you could go running up in the hills. And I actually thought about it until I really felt like I wanted to run up in the hills. I actually looked at that. I actually also meditated looking at it not in terms of gain or loss, but just that I wanted to go running. And I sat there until I kind of, like, my energy kind of congealed around the desire to actually do that exercise, that I really wanted to do it, aside from gain and loss.

[91:38]

And I got... While I was running, I thought, I recollected how I decided, how I moved into, I should say, how I got into the position of wishing and feeling good about going running without getting into much gain and loss around it. And I thought about people at work. But sometimes before they work, when they're working, before they do certain things at work, they don't stop to think if they want to do the thing. They either do it before they actually feel like they really want to do it, or they do it because they're afraid to not be active, saying, what are you doing? you know, in various ways anyway, they feel like they're not really coming from, like, that place, that upright, balanced place where you just suddenly feel the wish to do it arise. You just want to do it.

[92:42]

And you see it real clearly. And it's not about fear. And it's not about looking good. It's like, I want to do this. Like if you're on a construction site, it's not usual just to stop, you know, to stand still in the middle of the construction site or step off the side of the construction site and just stand there still and quiet and just check out what you want to do next. Or not to mention in the corpse pose. And I thought, wait a minute now. When you sign up for a job, do you have to state your religious practice beforehand? And they can't fire you for your religious practice. And you can explain to them that this is a religious practice, and it's not just a religious practice.

[93:48]

It's not just an empty religious practice. It is a prayer that helps me do good work. I stop at various points of the day, and I recollect myself, And recommit to work skillfully. But I have to... It's part of my religion to actually, like, work well. It will be to your advantage. I will do good work. And you can fire me if I don't do good work. But in order to do good work, I have to, on a periodic basis throughout the day, stop and recollect myself and re... my interest in doing this work. If I keep working without touching that place of wishing to do this work, construction or whatever, I notice my work practice deteriorates and if my religion, actually, it's a religious practice for me to do this, and you can't fire me for my religious practice, I'll take you to court and I'll win. This is my law. You know? And they can't fire you for this if this is your conviction that not only do you want to live this way,

[94:49]

You can say, you can fire me if I'm not doing good work, but you can't fire me for stopping, you know, in a safe situation and praying, basically, doing my prayers. My prayers are, I wish now to rediscover my center, my balance, and my interest in doing this work. And then when I start pounding and digging, I do it with enthusiasm, clarity, wholeheartedness, you know. I am a good worker when I... tuned in and I need to retune in. And you'll find, and I will come on time and I'll work hard all day when I want to work. But I'm not good at working when I'm scattered and I need to recollect myself. Try me out. See if I don't do good work. See how much I accomplish in a day. You'll find I think that I'm a good worker and I think you would be a good worker. And you have to tell people this. And they have to agree to it. If they don't agree with it, you have to keep negotiating with them. But people will adapt.

[95:53]

The country's changing, and it's allowing people to pray during the day. Some people do have to stop and pray on the job. It's part of their thing. And Buddhists need to actually meditate, not just... Some don't. Some can meditate early in the morning, and that's enough to take care of the whole day. But others need to do it at different points during the day. I need to do it more than once a day, usually. Otherwise, I drift away from touching my center. Once I find it, then it's clear. Good stuff comes from that place, but I can lose it after a while. And my life allows me to stop. But I was thinking, what about other people? You're going to have to establish this. in your work situation with people who are into gain and loss and don't even notice and don't even care. You're going to have to work to establish these formalities so that you can face your vulnerability to them.

[96:58]

Maybe they can fire you and also you changing your way of doing it. So I was actually thinking about that today. I think it is necessary. Otherwise you're going to... Huh? What? Pardon? Exactly. Yes. Yes. Yes. You can't force them to. No, you can't force them to. But you can establish with them it's already for you to do it, that they can allow you to. Just like a parent has to sometimes say, I need to rest now. Children sometimes are on their parents' case all the time. They always want their attention, say, I need to rest now. After I'm done resting, I'll be available to you. But if I don't take my rest, then I'm going to lose track of the fact that I want to take care of you.

[97:58]

I'm a half-hearted mother, a half-hearted father. But if you let me rest now, in five minutes or 10 minutes, I'll be wholeheartedly with you. So what do you want? You want all day a sort of a half-hearted mom? Or do you want all day minus several breaks? And then have a wholehearted mom the rest of the time. And kids, you know, my grandson, I watch his mother talk to him about that. And I tell him that, too. I say, give me a five-minute break, you know. And I rest, and then I rest, and I get up, and I'm ready to go. And that's part of what you teach him, too, that he has to start learning that, too. So, and that's a formality that you just do that. So this is something to do with people you're practicing with and to do with people who aren't interested in practice, but in fact you are practicing with them. And you're not forcing them to practice, but you're discussing with them how they're going to let you be who you are, which includes letting them be who they are, which is someone who doesn't want to practice like you.

[99:07]

You let them be. And you even ask them if there's any way you can help them do their way. And again, as you say, we're not used to this. The first thing I'm talking about, I gradually say, you know, I thought about it and there is something, you know, I did think of something you could do for me that we could agree on that would help me. Okay? One more class. Right? You're not coming next week, are you? You are, maybe? Yeah. You're going to be here. Okay. Are you going to do your corporate research? Yes. I think if they push up, I can push back. That's what I feel. I'm not killing them.

[100:08]

I'm just, they take the dirt up, put it up, I move the dirt over. That's what I do. That's what I understand. But, you know, you can, I can talk. Golden Gopher's Day, right? You left too early. You didn't go to Gopher's site. Large band of Janet passed away yesterday. Is there anything? How old is she? Sixty-six. Sixty-six? Have I met her? Yeah.

[101:06]

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