Anything you'd like to discuss? Yes? What is your name? Danica? Danica? Danica? Danica. Danica. Do you want to come sit up here? I would like you to sit up here, yeah. Here, sit here. You can use this. Everybody can hear you. It's on? Yeah. Danica. Yes. There seems to be a purpose for everything. And so in acknowledging this threshold that you spoke about, You know, you also say, we want to do good.

[01:04]

We want to help others. We want to benefit the universe. And yet somehow, when you stand on that threshold, you also have to let go of everything and surrender of becoming or doing in any way. Without leaning away from doing things. So I think a lot about this surrender and letting go and not having to become and accepting everything the way it is. But there's a lot of talk of acting and needing to act too. Well, after you surrender, action might come up. Like after you surrender, you might reach out and offer your hand to someone, but it's coming from surrender rather than coming from trying to do something.

[02:10]

It's just like a response. Like somebody says, hello, and you say, hello. And I think a lot about the existence of the dualities and their purpose. And I think a lot about the fact that the more I contemplate darkness is having a purpose, I have more compassion. And I'm not really sure where to go with that, but that I feel that it helps, you know, it helps me in dealing with suffering. Thank you. Anything else you'd like to discuss? Yes, please come. Thank you.

[03:29]

Welcome. I'm done. Hearing you speak this morning made me remember the idea of neither touching nor turning away at that threshold. And I've been thinking a lot lately about my practice and having a realization that it's come to a place where it might be helpful for me to practice right intention or to learn more about right intention I was wondering if you could offer any advice about how to stay focused on right intention when you're at that doorway instead of holding back and feeling

[04:36]

not worthy or feeling fearful of making a response or ashamed of making a response, but also not wanting to do something delusional or something that you're really not called to do. How can you come to a place where you feel more at ease with being in the threshold? I heard you say, how can you be there without, and you named a number of things. So when I heard you say those things, without this and this and this, I thought, well, you could have the intention to welcome all these things.

[05:46]

And if you could really welcome them, then you could be careful of them. You could be patient with them and calm down with them and then relax with them and then let go of them. So at the threshold, such things that you mentioned could arise. So you don't want to touch them or turn away from them. If you touch them, you'll get burned. If you turn away, you'll freeze. So your right intention is to face them and dance with them without leaning into them or away. How's that?

[06:53]

That sounds pretty good. Thank you. You're welcome. Yes, would you like to come up? Would you like to come up? Go that way is easier. That way is shorter. Thank you. I'm Charles. Charles. I guess this deals, my question deals with the threshold between peace and war and maybe even some people might think good and evil.

[08:02]

It's perplexing to me. Right now there are up to 30,000 people trapped in some mountains in northeastern Iraq. Interestingly enough, they're followers of a sect or religion that comes down from Zoroastrianism. They're up there with only their clothes and many of the children are dying of dehydration. The United States has gone in and dropped food and water some, and they're going to have to continue to do that. But they're also threatened by this group, ISIS, who we know about, who has been, when they have had their incidents, at least from what I've read, that when the leaders or the members of ISIS come across what they would consider non-believers, there have been people who have been killed and tortured. it may be that the only way to get these 30 000 people off of this mountain these mountains is to use some form of violence as the president has just started using the airstrikes and that's perplexing because i had hoped that we would no longer be doing that there at least

[09:17]

But then I think about what has happened before in Shravanika, Uganda, Cambodia, where much of the world sat back while so many were killed in genocide. And I'm wondering, in residing within that place between peace and war, between maybe even good and evil, we not sometimes have to take that kind of action? It's a troubling question for me, but I'm wondering. Well... If one of us wound up to be president, if that was our position, it's possible that we might be upright and we might, I would call it, order an airstrike. It's possible. If we thought that it would benefit the world, if we were in a position of balance,

[10:23]

we might feel it might be so that it would come through us that that would be the beneficial thing to do. But I've never been in a position in my life, and I don't know if any of you have, where I thought being cruel to somebody was necessary. So far. Never happened to me that I had to be violent in order to do good. I had been violent, but if I hadn't, things would have been different, but okay. What's been great in my life is the times when I found something other than violence in response to violence. Those are the really great moments in my life. But I don't know if a great Bodhisattva was in the position of power like that, if they would perhaps.

[11:27]

And then sometimes they back certain Buddhist masters into the corner and they say, okay, if this person was going to destroy many people with a bomb, You know, this person was going to kill hundreds, thousands of people, and you could, like, stop them, but the only way to stop them would be their death. What would you do? And the master might say, okay, it's wrong, but I would do it. Probably. Probably. But so far that has not happened and any Buddha master has been in a position where somebody is going to blow up a lot of people. But theoretically it might be possible to do wrong in order to protect the person who is going to murder people from that karma and protect the people who are going to be murdered. I can't think of any examples where that's happened.

[12:37]

Theoretically, it might be possible. But so far, I've never seen a case where I thought it was helpful. So far. And where I have myself killed something and thought that that was good. Yes. But I have sometimes, on some occasions, I have stopped people from being violent without hurting them. They were about to do violence or they were doing violence and I interacted with it and it was dispersed and I didn't hurt anybody. Setting aside being the president, in one way or another we become complicit with this action. That's right. And so we have to make the decision ourselves. But even before the airstrike, we're already complicit in the situation of these people being up in the mountain. We're also complicit in these people who are going to murder people if they won't convert.

[13:40]

We're complicit in that too. We don't want to be, but we are. So we are responsible for all this. And now... Now what do we want to do from here on? And so one of the things we're doing is you're asking this question, and I'm listening to you and responding. This is what we're doing. And somebody might criticize us and say, you're not doing enough. You should contact the president and tell him not to do airstrikes, or you should tell the president you're perplexed. And you probably would if you'd met the president, and the president would probably say, I am too. I'm trying to figure out with the aid of many voices. I'm trying to listen to many voices and see what the right action is. I think he's perplexed. I don't think he wants to be bombing people. But he wants those people to be protected too. So this is his life crisis.

[14:41]

But we're involved in it too, so that's why you bring it. But even if there's no airstrikes, we're still responsible for this extremely painful situation. So how can we not shrink back from it? And how can we not lean into it? How can we not turn away or touch, yet stay close to all this pain? I may be starting to talk about it like this. By contemplating it. The teaching is that the bodhisattva contemplates all this, contemplates it with eyes and ears and body of compassion. That's ongoing work is to contemplate this. That this contemplation brings happiness. But how that happens The Buddha knows and we don't, but the Buddha recommends that we do what the Buddha does, and that is to contemplate all these beings with eyes of compassion.

[15:54]

That's the recommendation. But the Buddha doesn't say, and that will never lead to X such and such an action. But the action that it leads to, that particular action is one thing, but the contemplation is what creates the happiness. All in search of truth. All in search of the truth. And when we're listening to the cries of the world, some people may come up to us and yell at us, say that we're not listening very well. So we listen to that too. Hi, I'm Henrika. Hi. And I'm still anxious from my own, whatever, reactions of my own self.

[16:58]

It seems like it's been a year since I'm retired and pretty much all the ways that I used to hide or escape or go into and not feel, perhaps, are gone. Or most of them. The ways you used to move away from your feelings? Right. The way I used to hide behind. Your old addictions? My old addictions, that's right. And I'm hitting some levels of terror that I didn't know before or didn't know or rarely visited before. I have visited them on occasion, but like a retreat, they came up or, you know. But especially the turmoil around the world brings them up because my buttons are safety, security, biggest buttons. And it made me really paralyzed. Like, really, I kind of go into this paralysis and don't know even how to get myself out of it.

[18:01]

And it's extremely uncomfortable. I, it seems like I can handle certain level of, like you said about a bodhisattva going through, reacted, but getting its balance, his balance or her balance. And so certain level, even intense level, I can still get my balance. But recently I've been getting those levels that it's really hard to get my balance. Any suggestions? I heard you say that a certain level of pain you can kind of like be balanced with and not freeze up. And then when the pain gets bigger sometimes, you get to a place where you just tense up and you lose your balance. Yeah. If you're moving around and you tense up, you often go off balance.

[19:02]

What is it like when you get on a boat, a ship in the ocean? A lot of people get seasick because their legs, they don't have their sea legs. Their legs are kind of stiff. But after you're on the ship for a while, your legs start to learn how to dance with the rocking boat. And then you're not jiggling your insides around. So you start to get more relaxed. But when you first get on the boat, unless the boat's really smooth, you can't right away, right away your body goes, and tightens up. And then your insides get shaken around. So when you notice that you're tightening up, then you say, OK, I confess. I've reached the limit of my patience. I confess I'm tensing up and I'm sorry I'm tensing up and I want to try again.

[20:04]

But that pain was so strong I couldn't relax with it. But also I don't beat myself up that I can't handle that more intense pain. I notice there's the pain, this pain I'm relaxed with, this pain I tense up and I'm sorry. over and over. And the Buddha says, if you do this practice, you will eventually be able to relax with anything. So already we can relax with some things. We don't completely freak out on every pain. So we can handle some pains. And if you can relax with some pains, then your reward will be more pain will come to you. Sure, that's what I'm feeling, yes. That's what happens. If people see somebody who is relaxed in the middle of pain, they go to the person. Totally. They bring their pain to the person because they want their person to show them.

[21:06]

So then that person has more pain. And if they can relax with that, they bring them more. It happens, really. That's the thing. We bring the pain to the person who looks like they can handle it well. That's the reward for handling it well, is they get more pain. I noticed that, yes. Yeah. And so the Buddha is somebody who everybody brings the pain to, and the Buddha can say, okay, the Buddha's getting pain 360 degrees around, totally surrounded, the Buddha can handle it. So generally speaking, if somebody's all curled up in a ball, we don't bring our pain to them. We leave them alone. If somebody's sitting up like this, we say, okay, you're a jerk. And they go, thank you. And they say, oh, you can handle that? Well, how about this? Right. That's how I feel. Yeah, that's the way it goes. That's normal. And there's a story about Buddha. The Buddha tells a story about himself in a past life when his name was what was it called?

[22:09]

It was called Kshanti something. Anyway, his name had to do with patience. And he was meditating in the forest in some Some women came to him and asked him for teaching and he gave it to them. And then these women were in a harem. And then the king came and saw his women with this teacher and he became jealous. And his harem said, no, he's not doing anything with this. He's just teaching as he's done. And he started insulting the guy and the guy listened to him and he said, you know, He kind of like said, well, you know, I hear you. And the guy says, oh, yeah? You think you're calm with my yelling at you? Well, how about this? And he said, okay, I hear you. Well, how about this? And he just kept being meaner and meaner to him. And the guy kept coming back with, fine, go ahead. And he cut the guy into little pieces. But as a few pieces were left, it's kind of like the reverse of the,

[23:16]

It's kind of like the reverse of what is called Terminator. When the little pieces of them were left, they were still saying, I bless you, no problem. That's what the Buddha taught, is in some sense kind of beating violence with patience. Does that mean that what's hurting is the resistance in me? What's hurting is the resistance to reality. That's what hurts. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And in order to stop resisting reality, we have to stop resisting like... physical pain and emotional pain. If we can stop resisting that, we can stop resisting the truth. So we have to train, you know, at trying to open... The word kshanti I heard, which is the word for patience, its root means capacity.

[24:28]

We have to develop the capacity for more and more intense suffering. And when we're completely open to it or we're not resisting it at all, then we're also open to the truth. But if we hold back in relationship to our fellow beings and our suffering, if we close down, we close the door on awakening also. So it's not just that we're non-violent in response to the pain, but also that we're present and ready for the truth. So I understand. So this means I am pushing it away in some way. That's why I feel this terror, this pain, this kind of... That's when the paralysis, you can push. Right. You tense up. Yeah. But also... Be compassionate to your tensing and say, OK, I've reached the limit of my patience.

[25:32]

I'm losing my patience. I'm sorry, but I'm losing my patience. I'm tensing up. But there's a kindness in that admission. And sometimes when I admit that I'm tensing up, I relax. When I say I'm tiring, I'm tensing, you're yelling at me, and I notice I'm tensing, and I'm sorry I'm tensing. then maybe I relax. And then you yell louder at me. Because you would like to see how loud you can yell and have me still relax. And I'd like to see too. But it's kind of, there's a cycle, you know. Increase intensity, tensing up, confessing the tensing, saying sorry, and then listen. It's like stretching the muscle too. You get to a place where, oop, that's as far as it can stretch, and you just stop. It's a good analogy. And then it goes a little bit more. But if you get there and you push, you pull the muscles, and then the muscles get really tense.

[26:33]

So when you get to the limit, don't push. Just say, OK, I've reached my limit. I'm not very good at patience. I'm sorry. And then you become a little more patient. And then again, I'm sorry. This is too much for me. I'm tensing up. Here I go. I'm tensing. I'm resisting. I'm sorry. So being present with every second of it, with every second of the experience. That's the thing about the patience. You're right in the present with the pain. But when you move away from the present, that's another way you resist the pain, is to move higher. Into the past, how long has this been going on? Or moving to the future, how long is it going to go on? So when you have a pain and you move, think about how long it's going to happen, it flares up. When you think about how long it has been going on, it flares up. If you can stay in the present, that's the best place to suffer. That's right, that's right. You still suffer, but less. Totally. But that's a training thing. It's a training thing. Thank you so much.

[27:34]

And it's kind of boring to be in a prison all the time. Thank you. You're welcome. Congratulations on your great challenges in your retirement. Anything else at this time? I'm sorry, I didn't tell the story completely during the talk, but I'll say it now for anybody who listens to the tape. So the monk comes and asks Zhaozhou, does the dog have Buddha nature? And Zhaozhou says, in Chinese, Wu, which means no, or there isn't any. And then the monk says, well, All living beings have Buddha nature.

[28:34]

That's a Buddhist teaching. How come the dog doesn't? And Jiaojiao says, because it has karmic consciousness. because it has karmic consciousness. It has this kind of turbulent consciousness so it doesn't have Buddha nature. And that conversation is an example of where here's the master and the student and they come and the student starts talking to the teacher and the teacher and the student start spinning together. The student says, does the dog have Buddha nature? And they start spinning around in the words and the teacher says, no. And then the student gets turned by that, and the teacher gets turned by that, and then the teacher student says, well, how come the dog doesn't? All beings have Buddha nature. And then the Buddha teacher says, because of karmic consciousness. So this is an example of where they're turning together. And then that's a famous story where a lot of people in the following generations looked at that story and looked at that answer, no, and tried to deal with that answer

[29:42]

and the turbulence that happens around that answer, which includes the bigger part of the story, to enter into that turning and see if they can be upright. Then they bring their attempt to be upright with that story to the teacher and then the teacher says, well, tell me about it. And then the student speaks and the teacher answers and then the teacher watches and the student watches to see if they can stay upright while they talk. Lots of times the teacher says, go away, you're off balance. And the student comes back and they do it again. The teacher says, you're off balance, go away. They do it over and over until the student and teacher can have this conversation and both of them be upright together. So it's an example of the dynamic of practicing with words together to find that still point in the turning world. And then in the same case, in the same book, the same story starts over again with this monk coming and saying, does a dog have Buddha nature?

[30:55]

And Zhao Juo says, yo, which means yes, or it does have. And then the monk says, well, if it has Buddha nature, why does it come into a dog's skin bag? And Zhaozhou says, because it knowingly and willingly transgresses. The Buddha nature knowingly and willingly comes into skin bags to benefit beings. That's a conversation which makes more or less sense to people. But still, even though it does, in that story, in that conversation, we start spinning. And we might think we're upright. And then the person we're talking to can test to see, are we? Like the person could say, well, you don't understand that story. And you can say, you're right, I don't. And the teacher says, you do understand the story. And you can say, no, I don't.

[31:59]

And the teacher says, you're right, you don't. What's the two of us who don't understand the story practice together forever? Yes! And so on. Can we dance together with these words, with these stories, the Zen stories, our stories? Are our stories Zen stories? Well, they become Zen stories if we can be balanced together. Thank you very much.

[32:34]

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