It seems to me that the ground of the Buddha's teaching is great compassion and great loving-kindness, and that the Buddha's enlightenment is the supreme fruit of compassion and loving-kindness for all beings. And also compassion and loving-kindness for all beings is a natural outflowing of Buddha's awakening. I imagine this circle I just described is not a surprise to you. If it is, I'd appreciate hearing from you. The Buddha's enlightenment is also, seems to be, for a human being

[01:09]

to consider, to reflect on, to think about correctly, the Pentacle Rising. So the Pentacle Rising emerged from Buddha's awakening, which emerged from Buddha's compassion. And then once it emerged in the world, The Buddha himself reflected on dependent core rising over and over, forward and backward. And then he taught it. I heard the Dalai Lama say that dependent core rising is Buddha's slogan.

[02:27]

But it's not just a slogan, it's something that Buddha contemplates herself. We recently had a class at Green Gulch, which met on Monday nights, and the class was about enlightenment I didn't go to the class, so I didn't find out what it was. Did my grandson go to that class? Pardon? So he went to the enlightenment class once. He didn't tell me what it was about either. But I just told you what enlightenment was.

[03:33]

Let me also say enlightenment is meeting Buddha face to face. I don't remember what came up in me such that I wanted to offer the gift of the Lotus Sutra, Chapter 16, to you. But after I heard it, I was chanting it with you, and I heard the part where it said, that living beings are filled with longing for me and thirst for me. And I thought, thirst? Oh yeah. Thirst is one of the key elements in Buddha's story of dependent core arising. So I looked at another translation and it didn't say thirst, it said longing, longing for me.

[04:50]

So the Buddha says, I go away, I enact disappearance so that beings will long for me, and adore me. I just thought that maybe I should disappear. And then my grandson would start adoring me and long for me. Where's granddaddy? Granddaddy's dead. Oh darn. He wanted to come to Sashin. He was getting ready for Sashin. And he's nine. And he asked me to help him put an orioke set together. And we were doing pretty well getting things together.

[05:54]

We got our chopsticks from the head temple of Soto Zen ready. And he went into the office and spent money that he made here at Green Gulch to buy a spoon. We got everything together, but then he said, now we have to make the squeegee. The set suit. And we went down to the library to find the materials to make the squeegee, but we couldn't find them, so I said, how about if I buy you one? And he was very happy to hear that. He actually looked up at me, and there was a moment of adoring there. Thanks, Granddaddy. So maybe I should disappear and then he would adore me and yearn for me. Anyway, the Buddha says, I disappear because if I'm around all the time people will become arrogant, like my grandson, and disregard me and not appreciate me, and that would not be good.

[07:06]

So I do it. And then when they yearn for me and adore me, then if they're upright and honest and gentle and flexible, I will appear to them. They will meet me face to face. Maybe that's why offered it. So it's not quite a thirst, it's not a craving, but it's a desire, a reasonable desire maybe. Not a desire to get something, but to meet something, something very dear to us. And when we meet the Buddha face to face, this is enlightenment.

[08:08]

And this meeting will be, for us human beings, a ritual performance. So now here we are in this room together, sitting and walking. this sitting and walking could be the ritual performance of contemplating the pinnacle arising, meeting Buddha face to face. Meeting Buddha face to face is meeting the pinnacle arising. And we can give what we're doing here for that meeting. Offer our action for that meeting. And at the end of the chapter 16 it says, Buddha says, I'm always thinking how can I

[09:34]

cause beings to enter the Buddha way and realize awakening. Oh no, enter the unsurpassable way and quickly perfect the body of Buddha. So we can make our action the ritual performance of meeting Buddha face to face. And this action includes thinking of how to cause all beings to enter this way of meeting Buddha face to face.

[10:36]

And this perfects the Buddha body. The Buddha body is perfected by our action becoming the ritual performance of enlightenment. Not exactly the ritual performance of enlightenment, but ritual performance as enlightenment and enlightenment as ritual performance. Our body's practicing that way. It perfects, completes the Buddha body. our bodies encouraging other bodies to enter the way. This is the way of meeting Buddha face to face. This is dependent core rising in action. This is compassion and loving-kindness for all beings in action. This is making our action the ritual enactment of compassion for all beings.

[11:42]

And then there it is. You just have to be careful of pride and conceit to exaggerate anything a little bit or quite a bit. To grasp what you're doing because dependent core arising and the Buddha are telling you that this ritual activity and the Buddha's are dependent core arisings and they're all emptiness. So to wholeheartedly perform empty rituals together with empty friends and Buddhas and meet, have empty meetings for the welfare of all beings, moment by moment, without pride, without dwelling in anything, including the meeting, including enlightenment.

[13:02]

This is being gentle and soft, upright and honest. And then I also just mentioned one more catch in this pride thing. Pride makes the performance of the practice in some sense more comfortable. It blocks the actual practice, but it makes the practice more comfortable. Without pride, you might be afraid. You might be uncomfortable. You might be unsure. that your way is right.

[14:12]

As I mentioned, I was with a group of people studying the Samdhinirmocana Sutra, and lo and behold, the Buddha asked the buddhi, How many people do you know who are not influenced who are not possessed by pride and conceit. And Subodhi says, I know just a few. Of course you, boss, but also there's a few other sentient beings who are not possessed, who are not influenced by pride and conceit. But again, when we're not too influenced or not influenced at all, especially when we first start to give up our pride and conceit, we might get in touch with some insecurity, some uneasiness, some sense that we're not in control.

[15:40]

So as I mentioned again yesterday that when we're actually practicing without conceit we may feel that there's inner and outer themes in our life. Somebody's taking things from us or threatening to take things from us. But these forces are actually servants of wisdom testing to see if we're proud, if we're apprehending our view of whatever. Apprehending our view, apprehending it. Not just having a view, but apprehending it. If you have a view and you don't apprehend it, then really there's no function for the thief.

[17:04]

But if there's a thief in my life, it's probably because I need a thief to help me open to wisdom. It's not such an attractive idea to trade in your pride for fear. People are being mean to me and I can't apprehend that view that they're being mean to me and I should like let go of that view and not only have them be mean to me but also be afraid and have no defense, the defense of my sureness of their cruelty. Forget it. I'm just going to go back and practice Zen now. The Buddha, in a sense, in chapter 16, is a thief.

[18:11]

The Buddha takes away Buddha. So people will be frightened and sorrowful and open up and start adoring the Buddha. And yearn again. If I proudly perform rituals as enlightenment, then I'm not so scared. But if I perform rituals as enlightenment without pride, I could be quite frightened that people would think I was proud. But if I'm proud enough, I don't care if they think I'm proud. I'm so proud their criticism will just bounce off my proud armor.

[19:14]

The Buddha has confidence but no pride. Isn't that amazing? Just as a suggestion, that someone could just have tremendous confidence without pride. We know that some people have confidence with pride, but how about clear confidence and wisdom with no pride? This is the Buddha. When we sit, this can be the ritual enactment of seated Buddha. And you not only have the ritual enactment of seated Buddha, but you, in your seated Buddha, you're meeting Buddha face to face. You know the form is just a ritual, and the form doesn't reach the Buddha, but there's no other way, I strongly say, to realize the Buddha body other than making what you're doing the enactment of the Buddha way.

[20:36]

This is the same as saying, that the Buddha way is to think about how what you're doing is dependent co-arising. Of course, in acting the Buddha way, the Buddha body, you're not trying to get anything. You want to meet the Buddha, but you're not trying to get anything by meeting the Buddha. And you want to meet the one who doesn't get anything. You don't have to be real good at something to be proud of it. My young friend is a great example of that. The first time he tries something, he's proud of himself.

[21:51]

But as you get more skillful, then you get into deeper levels of awareness of the pride and deeper levels of awareness of fear. Just wanted to mention someone requested that I talk more than I had the first two days. And I don't know if I've reached more yet. But I think I did. You don't think so? What can I say? What can I do? Where can I go? Help me. Give me a gift. Tell me a story.

[23:06]

I'll comment on it. If you have any further feedback, other than my talks are too short, you're welcome to give it. Oh, the ritual is to come up here and make your offerings. So could you come up here and move this cushion up in front here and pick up the thing and do it again? Right in front. Can you comment on the phrase?

[24:11]

Can you hear me? Is it on? Could you? I was reading a Pete's Coffee bag. Pete's Coffee bag? Pete's Coffee. And I think it said at the bottom, it said, we are proud of our coffee. We're proud of our coffee. But the phrase that was in my mind was, we take pride in our work. What does it mean to take pride in one's work? Is that possibly a good thing? And what are the pitfalls? The pitfalls of taking pride in our work is that That's what we apprehend and therefore we do not seek the truth. That's the problem with that. Is there anything useful in the phrase? Adoring our work, by the way, is no problem.

[25:15]

You can adore your work. You can love your work. But love is not to be proud of what you're doing. You can love your daughter without being proud of her. If you love your daughter, you're open to wisdom. If you're proud of your daughter, you're proud of your daughter, which is cool, because you're not afraid then. In your pride of your daughter, you're fearless. Not really, but you're protected from fear in your pride. When your daughter is in danger, you're not proud of her. When you see her in danger and you're worried about her and you're frightened that she's going to get hurt, at that moment you're not proud. When she's the champion, blah, blah, you're proud. When she's the champion... Victor, you're proud. When she does something successfully, you're proud. Maybe.

[26:15]

But when you see her fragility and her vulnerability, at that moment you don't feel pride. But at that moment, through your daughter, you're open to the dependent co-rising. You're ready to meet Buddha. Is it ever right to say to a child, I'm proud of you? Is it ever right to say to a child, I'm proud of you? It's possible. Dependent Core Rising says anything could be helpful sometime, someplace. Dependent Core Rising is teaching that there's no fixed laws of, for example, ethics. But Dependent Core Rising is saying that what we do is where it's at. That's what we should pay attention to. Thank you. You're welcome. Does this count as more talk?

[27:36]

Huh? Does it? Okay. That lady turned it off. You're so proud of her. So somebody's proud of you, even though I'm not. Some people say, you must be proud of your disciples. So I have to watch out not to be proud of my excellent disciples and shift from pride to adoration. So I'm not very like your grandson. You're not like my grandson? Well, yeah, mostly I am. Mostly you are like my grandson? But then there's these little things that make us all seem very individual.

[28:41]

Yeah. And there's a lot of things that seem to separate. At least when I was nine years old, I was very not proud and... and more like had a lot of self-esteem issues. I didn't... Yeah, he has self-esteem issues too. Yeah, but they're more... And they manifest as pride. Yeah. Well, mine just manifested as being kind of more scared of trying to do anything. So I guess... Yeah, he used to be really scared. He used to be really scared, but now he switched to pride. He had enough fear. Yeah, that's amazing. Well, I guess that my question would be about, you mentioned he'll try something once and then be proud of himself, even if he's not very good at it or skilled at it. And I had this book that my mom bought when I was younger, about his age actually, that was to help to help me boost my self-esteem, like just kind of this book of exercises that we would do together in the evening, which could be as small as like, I came to class today with a pen and a paper, and I did that, I showed up for that, and I don't know if it was about pride, but I did that.

[30:06]

And it was very hard for me to be kind of kind with myself for small things. So I guess, yeah, what should I do when I accomplish something maybe that is hard for me or just a new thing instead of being proud or just kind of, what's the, I guess I'm looking for a different word than pride, but I think it's good to have a certain amount of positive feeling when you try something for the first time and maybe it didn't come out very good. Maybe I cooked something in the kitchen and it didn't come out as tasty as it could have, but I was still happy that I gave it my all. So you think it's good to have positive feelings when you try something? I feel like it could be more helpful than having negative feelings because I wanted to come out perfect this time.

[31:14]

Well, if you're doing something and you have positive feelings, then I think it would be good for you to be kind to the person who has positive feelings. Positive feelings are not in themselves kindness. They're just positive feelings. But if you see somebody like you, you see yourself having a positive feeling, I would say, well, welcome that. Welcome yourself having a positive feeling. That's kind. Be calm with having a positive feeling. Be patient with having a positive feeling. But we usually don't apply patience to positive feelings, but be patient that the positive feelings might go away. Be patient with the impermanence of that positive feeling. Don't try to control the positive feeling. Like, oh, I want another positive feeling. Yeah. In other words, if a positive feeling comes when you try something, I would say love it.

[32:18]

But loving it, in the fullness of loving a positive feeling, you won't attach to it. You won't dwell in it. Now, if a negative feeling comes when you try something, like, I don't know what, play catch, put your hand up and the ball hits you in the face. You know, this happens sometimes when boys and girls are playing catch. Put the hand up, they throw the ball, hits you in the face, it hurts. You're trying to learn to play, but it hurts. You have a negative feeling. So I recommend the same thing for the negative feeling. Welcome it. Welcome negative feeling. Welcome pain. Love pain. Not like pain. Not dislike pain. Not like positive feeling. Not dislike positive feeling. Welcome positive feeling. Welcome negative feeling. Welcome pain. Welcome neutral sensation.

[33:20]

Be calm with it. Be gracious. Be patient. Not overbearing and controlling. Be non-violent. Don't be nasty. Then you with all that in its fullness, you won't dwell on it. Positive or negative, you won't dwell on it. Then you can observe the way things are. And then you are helping beings. Then you are teaching the Dharma. So all these experiences, if you have low self-esteem, welcome it. Now, if a child has low self-esteem, I might say to them, hey, let's raise your self-esteem. I might say that, but I probably wouldn't. I would probably just be with this kid who has low self-esteem and show them that this person will be with them through the valley of the shadow of no self-esteem.

[34:32]

I'll walk with them For as long as they've got self-esteem, I'll be there with them. And I won't go away because their low self-esteem is like really boring. Etc. And I want to teach him or her to be able to be kind to their low self-esteem rather than let's get rid of this low self-esteem They think they're ugly. I think they're beautiful. But I don't try to talk them out of their view. I try to teach them. I try to be kind to their view that I disagree with so that they can be kind to their view, which they do agree with. In this way, they can become free of pride of their view that they're worthless. Then they might switch to another view like they're really great and be proud of that. I would like to help them become free of priding all their views. I would like you and I to become free of our views.

[35:38]

Thank you. And one last thing that I'd like to say about how this is coming up for me nowadays is a lot of times I feel like other folks have special tricks and neat skills and things that they are good at catching the attention of others. Some of them do. Like professional skills and even non-professional skills. And part of me feels like until I cultivate some special skill, I'm not going to appreciate myself, nor will others accept me and appreciate me. Did you say? Yeah, yeah. But see, that's funny because I'm like, no, it's not special skill at all. I just do it. So it's funny. But I guess that my intention is to... offer this whole life as a special trick skill for everybody it's like just hey that's fine that's fine and but before you become really good at that okay okay before before you get raised right here yeah we're there we're before it yeah you're probably already proud

[37:08]

Yeah, yeah, I discovered this great thing. I don't have to have a special skill. Wow, that's great. The way I am now is sufficient for me to be proud. Yeah, yeah, I'm just proud of me. So you don't have to wait to get better to notice that you're proud. Oh, that's right. However, when you do get more skillful, it might be easier to notice your pride. That's one of the advantages of getting more skillful is it brings out more and more subtle awareness of pride. So again, in the sutra, Subuddhi's looking at all these really skillful elders, you know, they're really good at all this stuff. Like one of them is really good at meditating on Dependent Core Rising. He's really good at it. And he's communicating his understanding based on observing Dependent Core Rising, like a good Buddhist should. But he's approving of his understanding. He's conceited. He's proud. But you don't have to wait until you're more skillful than you are now to notice that you're proud.

[38:14]

In other words, you can right now start to open to the truth by noticing your pride and being kind to your pride. And if you're kind to your pride, and if I'm kind to my pride, and we're kind to our pride, we won't dwell in it. And we won't dwell allows us to open to the truth and help the Buddha's body be manifested in this world. But it's also good to get skillful at things like Buddhist meditation or other kinds of teachings and practices to see can you get more and more skillful and still deal and notice the pride there too. Probably you can. And then be kind to that pride, and that pride, and that pride, and that pride. No matter how proud you get, be kind to yourself. No matter how proud I get, be kind to me.

[39:17]

And if you're kind to me, you won't dwell on my pride. And if you're kind to yourself, you won't dwell on your pride. And if you're kind to your pain, you won't dwell on your pain. And if you're kind to your pleasure, you won't dwell on your pleasure. And then we have a chance to open to the way things really are and perfect the Buddha body. But it's hard to open to the pride and let go of it because then we get scared. But then we can be kind to the fear. Same thing with the fear. Can I have that microphone on the floor, please? Thank you. Is that enough, Miriam?

[40:19]

Not quite? No, okay. Teacher, we're talking about emotions and in Buddhism there always seems to be this negative aspect about emotions. Negative aspect about emotions? Well, that we're not supposed to have pride or... We're not supposed to have pride? Oh, no, I didn't say you're not supposed to have pride. I said that most people do. That's all. It's just sort of an anthropological observation. Okay. But we don't say people aren't supposed to have pride. in the Buddha way. We say, those people who have pride are objects of compassion, including that of I do. I should be kind to myself. Kind, kind, kind to me, the proud one. So it's not that you're not supposed to be proud. It's just that if you're proud, it obstructs the truth.

[41:22]

So I would like you to become free of your pride, if you have any, and teach you how to be free of it. I want to teach you how to be kind to it, how to love it. Can I ask for clarification? I mean, what you're saying makes complete sense to me, and it actually has penetrated me before the first time you mentioned it. But pride, fear, anger, love, joy, these are all emotions. It comes with the package. We're born with it. We didn't ask for it. We didn't desire these emotions. It seems to me that emotions seem to point out what the status of our life is, what the status of our well-being at any given moment is. I just need clarification. Emotions are not necessarily bad. They're pointing to something. I suppose, I guess what I'm asking is clarification. Is it the emotion itself that is something that should be avoided or is it the condition that the emotion points to that we're getting stuck on which is pointing to that?

[42:35]

I heard you ask a question about emotion. So you said, and I lost it, you said, basically you asked me how to deal with the emotion. No, I mean, The emotion itself. Even dogs have emotion. All beings, I suppose, have emotion. So what's your question about emotion? Is it that emotion itself is not the problem? It's getting sustained, stuck on a condition that continues to stimulate the emotion over and over. So I agree emotion itself is not the problem. Emotion is an opportunity. So you can say that the emotions are pointing to something and I would say that if you're kind to the emotion, you have a chance to not dwell in it. If you don't dwell in the emotion because you're kind to it instead of dwelling in it, then you're open to the truth. And you could say the truth which the emotion is pointing to.

[43:38]

You could say all things are pointing to the truth. But we have to be kind to them, wholeheartedly kind to all emotions in order to not dwell in them. When we don't dwell in them, then we can see what they really are. Okay, thank you. Thanks for the question. Stephen, right? Yes, sir. So four different things have come up.

[44:38]

One is a pride of lions. What is a pride of lions? And then this phrase that I heard when I first began practicing, which is, pride in one's spiritual attainments is the last to go? Like the last affliction is pride in one's spiritual attainments? On the Arhat path, the last latent tendency is pride. These very advanced guys and gals, the thing that's blocking their final realization is that they're proud of how advanced they are. And they are very advanced, way, way out there. And they're proud. And the third thing is, there's a poem by Jane Hirschfeld about proud flesh, which, have you heard that term before, proud flesh?

[45:40]

I've heard that term, proud flesh. It's... Sounds like Shakespeare. Maybe. In the poem, anyway, it's about horses who have been wounded or hurt, and then the flesh grows up and higher in a different color, like scar tissue, I guess, from a wound, and that's called proud flesh. And I was... wondering about pride as this response to woundedness. Yeah, I think, for me, when you say a pride of lions, I think of a group of frightened animals. Lions are huge, frightened kids. They're terrified. And their terror comes and goes in terms of its height, but basically their pride is an expression of their fear. And I think, yeah, that's what pride's about.

[46:46]

It's like protecting our vulnerability, attempting to protect our vulnerability. So the proud flesh is like that too. It's like, it's a response to an injury. Just like the body saying, you're not going to hurt us here again. We're not just going to heal, we're going to make sure you can't hurt this area. So the fourth thing that came up for me was Gay Pride Parade and Gay Pride Week and how much effort and energy went into that event and how... I guess as a response to pain, maybe, or a response to negativity. So I was just wondering what your comments might be about. Like gay pride, it's like, okay, man, we're here. You're not going to hurt us. Rather than gay adoration day.

[47:48]

Gay adoration is more vulnerable. Like here we're going to have a parade to adore gay people. That's like inviting attack. They're all like adoring each other. No, we're proud, man. We've got muscles. Yeah, you do. But even if you've got muscles and you're into adoration, people think, oh, this is a pushover here. They're in the adoring mood. They're in the yearning mood. Ah, we can attack them. But if they're all proud and bristly like lions, we better let them have their parade. So I think, yeah, proud is like confidence, which is fine. Confidence is good. And then let's puff it up. Rather than confidence and, oh, how sweet. How sweet that they appreciate this, that they think this is a good way for them to live.

[48:51]

Yeah, those are good examples of how the word pride is a response to pain and fear and past injury and fear of future injury. So how can we love the situation so fully that we don't dwell in it and see the truth and then show that body in the world? which, if there's vulnerability, we love the vulnerability but we don't dwell in it. And the light of the truth of vulnerability is radiating from this meditation on the pinnacle rising. Thank you for those words. Thank you very much. Is that enough, Miriam?

[50:05]

Can I just ask for clarification? No, you have to come up if you want. If you want clarification, you have to come up here later. Yes? Do you have to talk into this? You do not have to talk into this, but you want to try without it? I'd like the people in the back to be able to hear you. I'll hold it for you. May I? Can you hear me? Yeah. So something that I've been feeling, especially as I do Oryoki, which I'm just learning to do, is shame would probably be the best term for it.

[51:05]

And I was thinking or I was feeling maybe that shame is kind of like a form of pride because it's apprehending something. Shame is very closely related to pride. So pride could be a defense about shame, but shame can also be, could be, a defense against fear. Yeah. But pride definitely often goes with a sense of shame, like, push it away. It kind of works temporarily. So I think the feeling that I've been having around not being capable of something and that feeling of shame feels like it's... Did you say a feeling of not being capable of something and then you feel shame about that?

[52:13]

And that, I don't know, it almost, yeah, it feels like the same thing that pride feels like, and I'm not sure exactly how to explain that, but that's what I've been feeling. So I guess I wanted to ask about that and how to, I mean, because that's the negative end or the negative feeling end of the pride feeling that feels, you know, puffed up, feels good. The shame feels good? No, no, I was saying the shame is like the negative end of the pride feeling that feels good, the shame is like the rrrr feeling. Well, shame's a big topic, but to just now talking to you, I'm kind of feeling like part of what shame's about is that we feel uncomfortable that we're not doing what we really should be doing. Sometimes we're pushing something away that we don't really want to push away. And we feel ashamed that we're pushing away something that really we don't want to push away.

[53:18]

You know, like to push away a friend. We sometimes do. Because we just can't face their love. So we push them away, but then we feel ashamed that we push them away because they were being kind to us. And in some ways that's good that we feel some discomfort or some shame about pushing somebody away that loves us. Like pushing away a bodhisattva. We might feel shame at that. That's good. But then we might hide that good shame by saying, well, you know, that was good that I did that, actually. You know, they needed that little test. You know, that was just a test of their love and that was really good. So then the fear distracts us from the pain we feel of pushing something away that we really didn't want to push away. Whereas fear is not the same as shame, but we can push that away with pride too.

[54:19]

We can push away fear and we can push away love, both of them with pride. But shame is more, I think, when you notice that you push something away that you really don't want to push away. And actually, I personally feel shame if I push pain away, and I feel shame if I push fear away. I personally do, because I don't want to push away fear. So when I push away fear, I feel shame, because I really want to embrace and sustain fear and pain. I don't want to make pain go on. I want to liberate pain. So when I turn away from anything, I feel ashamed. But, I mean, I hope I do. But then I can gloss over the shame with some pride, maybe. Or push the shame away. Or I can even right away, as soon as I push the pain or the fear away, I can immediately feel proud that I did it.

[55:24]

Like, that pain deserved to be pushed away. I'm like the big good guy that pushed away the pain that should be pushed away. I can be proud immediately. But then I would be doubly ashamed if I noticed that. And then can I love that shame? Can I love the shame? And if I can love the shame, then maybe I can not dwell on the shame. If I can love the pride, then I can not dwell on the pride, and then I can love the shame, and then I can love the pain, and I can love the fear, and I can love the vulnerability. This is meditating on the pinnacle of rising. And this is, all this is, the ritual enactment of meeting Buddha face to face. Did you have something more you wanted to tell us? I'll work on getting better at Oriyoki.

[56:27]

Would you say it again? I said I'll work at getting better at Oriyoki. And please work at loving the way you're doing it now. Before you get any better, start loving it. And then if you get better, love your higher skill level. Love that too, rather than being proud. I just thought of the way some people tie their orioke and they have the part sticking way up like, oh, I really tied that well. Yeah, so we're all doing our orioke. We can be like, oh, that was good. And then we can puff it up. Or, that was good. Wow, it kind of worked. You know, actually, that worked. That was wonderful. I loved that. But also, love it when you spill.

[57:28]

Love it when you forget. Not like when you spill. Not like when you forget. Love it. Welcome it. You're welcome, thank you. Don't touch it, don't touch it. I was just kidding. Is that enough, Miriam? Or do you want to come up and clarify something? I just didn't hear what you were saying about dependent core rising and vulnerability.

[58:38]

You didn't hear? I didn't catch it. Well, vulnerability is a dependent core rising. And you might have a feeling about it. And if you love that feeling, then you won't go into craving that the feeling will go away. Then you won't dwell on the feeling. And then at that point of that feeling of vulnerability, you can open to the way things are. Rather than trying to manipulate the feeling of vulnerability and go into craving around it and trying to get it to go away, and then get into the path of suffering. So the way of loving, for example, all your feelings is a way to start turning the causal cycle of suffering around.

[59:55]

and actually move back from creating more suffering to even deflating or removing the source of all suffering, ignorance. And by not only giving up going forward and causing more trouble, but realizing the truth with your current situation, namely, the fact of being vulnerable. We are always vulnerable. Didn't you ask me about that? Yeah. So I said to Miriam a few years ago, the Buddhas are always aware, a human Buddha is always aware of being vulnerable. The rest of us are sometimes aware of being vulnerable. But we're always vulnerable. We're not mindful all the time, so we forget or even use pride to push away our sense of vulnerability.

[61:04]

Whereas Buddhas don't use pride. They have no defense against vulnerability. They have no defense against reality. So if you have a body, it can be hurt. Got a mind, it can be hurt. Got friends, they can be hurt. Everything can be hurt. All these phenomenons. So the Buddhas have trained to be aware of it all the time, and some bodhisattva skin, and some are hot skin. And we can become more aware of it too. And that would be good. Thank you. Thank you. Is that enough now? You're putting this all on me. It's a big responsibility. I give you a big responsibility. Well, then it's not enough. I think I'm not enough.

[62:14]

You think you're not enough? Don't listen to what I think. May I listen to what you think even though you told me not to? Yeah, thank you. Is this on? It sure is. Wow. So are you. I'm on. It's broadcasting. I like it. I have two questions. One is, can you help explain the connection between pride and fear? When I examine pride or study it, fear isn't the first place I would go to, so I'm intrigued by that. Can you say more? Yeah, I think that often behind pride is fear.

[63:16]

Could you give some nice Jungian explanation or something? I just want you to say more. I don't quite, I don't understand completely. If you want. Around the time when I was first starting to be attracted to Zen before I moved to San Francisco, I read a book by Krishnamurti and there was a first page, there was like one paragraph, and the end of the paragraph he said, wherever you go in the world, everybody, all people are all, I turned the page, afraid. I generally feel if you just scratch the surface a little bit on most proud people, you find fear. And then if you're the one who scratched the surface to show the fear, then you find anger. Usually, people are, generally speaking, walking around just like lions.

[64:25]

They're walking around frightened. And they're, generally speaking, exaggerating the situation as a defense against their fear, which does work to some extent. If you have enough pride, you can go out of the house and go to work. you know, I can do this, you know. Some people can't, but a lot of people, I can do this, I can go to work, I can get to the Zen, no, I know I can do this, I've got that power, I got it, I can feel it, I can do it. Yeah, so people, some exaggeration seems to be necessary to cope with our fear. Compensation. Compensation, yeah. So that's kind of how I'm feeling about it today, is that pride is, generally speaking, a coating we put upon our frightened body. And again, some people, the way they're conceited or the way they're proud has another layer on top, which is, I'm not proud.

[65:32]

They put a disclaimer, you know, and they even believe it themselves. I'm not proud. But a lot of people who are actually bursting with pride also say they're not proud. But again, Subuddhi, you know, he said it, I don't know if he's right, he said, there's a lot of people who are proud, just a few who aren't. A lot of people who are conceited, just a few who aren't. So there may be some people in here who aren't proud. But the ones who I feel, generally speaking, are the least proud are the ones who are quite aware of being afraid. We're almost all afraid, but some people are aware. But when there are the ones who are aware, they come and say, I'm feeling fear. At that moment, I don't feel they're super proud. The pride is kind of subdued because they're opening to the fear. But most people are not walking around open to their fear. But Zen students are pretty good, quite open.

[66:40]

And I think that's good, because you're open to vulnerability and the fear of what might happen because of that. That's good. This doesn't mean there's no pride, because there might be some areas where you don't feel vulnerable. Does that speak to your question at all? Yeah, it does. It does. Thank you. And I'd like to ask, too, if it's all right, or kind of check, that is the issue with pride that it's a form of discursive thought? And I'm bringing this up because I'm just reminded of many situations where people have kind of leaped in and done amazing things, put themselves at risk to save somebody else, or acted for somebody very, in a crisis, and when people come to them later and say, that was really great, I'm really proud of you,

[67:41]

these people almost always say the same thing, which is, I don't know what you're talking about. I just did what needed to be done. And then I'm just reminded of situations where people come to me later and interpret what happened. That was great, Roberta. You should be proud. Or that was really awful. And then you react to that. So is this about discursive thought, the issue of pride? I don't think so. Okay. But I think you can use discursive thought. You can be proud of your discursive thought. A lot of people, they're discoursing away and they're proud of it. And you can also use discursive thought to back up and amp up and surround your pride. But discursive thought itself is something which you can study with or without pride.

[68:42]

Oh, so pride, you wouldn't say that pride is discursive thought. Pride is more like you think that you apprehend your discursive thought and you think you know what you're thinking. Or you approve of your discursive thinking. Or you don't approve of your discursive thinking, but you approve of your disapproval. So discursive thinking itself is not necessarily pride. Basically, I don't think it is pride. I think pride is an inflation and a projection of substance onto your discursive thought, but also onto your feelings, onto your actions. So in your example, some people do stuff at certain moments, but they don't project this plastic coating around it. They don't inflate it. They just do it. And then if someone says, be proud, they maybe not get it for a while. Then later, maybe they say, oh, yeah, I could be proud of that. But when they first did it, maybe they were just like doing it so wholeheartedly that they weren't dwelling in it.

[69:44]

that the usual dwelling way of being, you know, was somehow taken away from them. And they entered into this real interdependent core rising, into reality. And everyone thought it was great to see that. And they may not have been inflating it at all. Right. Thank you. You're welcome. Miriam, is that enough?

[70:50]

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