week we're spending, we're giving lots of time to sitting still. And we're also examining in some detail this sitting, what's going on in this sitting. for the Buddha ancestors. The Buddha sitting, and their sitting is unsurpassed, totally culminated enlightenment. And there's questions about what's going on in this practice of enlightenment. There are many stories about Da Ji, Jiang Shi, Matsu, and there's many stories about his teacher.

[01:26]

Nanyue Huairang. This is just one of them so far in this session. Maybe later we can look at some others. And now is later. Nanyue Huairang went to see the sixth ancestor of Zen. And when he arrived, I think the sixth ancestor asked Nanyue, where are you from?

[02:38]

And Nanyue was from. And then the sixth ancestor said to Nanyue, what is it that thus comes? Thus comes is a name for the, is an epithet for Buddha's When Buddhas come, what is it that thus comes? Buddhas thus come, and Buddhas thus go. When they thus come, what is it? I'm expanding. The Sixth Ancestor just said, what is it that thus comes? When you come, what is it that thus comes? And Nanyue said, to make any indication misses the point, or to say it's this or that misses the point.

[03:59]

And the sixth ancestor said, well, then is there no practice in enlightenment? And Nanyue said, I don't say there's no practice in enlightenment. I just say that it cannot be defiled. And the sixth ancestor said, this non-defilement all Buddha ancestors protect and maintain. Now I'm like this and you're like this too. He became a successor to the sixth ancestor but we see that he was already on the right track when he met his teacher.

[05:07]

Now he has a great student and he asks his student, what's going on when you're sitting? Thus come one, what's going on when you're sitting? And Daji, Master Ma, says, what intention is there in this sitting? And Daji said, the intention is to make a Buddha. I bet. that Nanyue is continuing the practice that's dearest to him, the practice of not defiling practice realization, not defiling the practice of enlightenment.

[06:17]

We've got the practice of enlightenment, it's just a matter of not defiling it. That's the emphasis of Nanyue, and his teacher confirms this as what the Buddhists take care of. The practice of enlightenment is rolling forward every moment. And in this school that we're looking at here, which may be this school which you're looking at here, emphasizes just don't defile it. Just enter this great Dharma wheel. Just enter this practice of enlightenment and be careful not to defile it by saying anything about it. So now he's checking his student.

[07:31]

Is my successor, is this wonderful disciple of Buddha who said, is he defiling anything here? I'll check. What intention is there? And Matsu says, the intention is to make a Buddha. And then Nanyue picks up a tile and starts to rub the tile on the stone. I must confess, I'm not a fast reader, but when I first read this story or heard this story, I just listened to that sentence and moved on to the next one.

[08:37]

In other words, I thought, you know, how entertaining that the Zen master picks up a tile and starts rubbing it on a stone. I didn't think Is this Zen teaching? Rubbing tiles on stone? Is that Zen instruction in the Buddha way? I didn't think, I never heard that rubbing tiles on stones was what Zen teachers teach. I didn't think, is he just taking a little break from teaching and playing with his toys? Or is this actually his teaching? I didn't think that. I just moved on to the next sentence where his wonderful student says, Teacher, what are you doing?

[09:45]

Or, Teacher, what... you're doing or teacher you're doing what any I'd like to be somebody who notices that there's something here to ask questions about but sometimes I forget But Matsu noticed and he asked a question, Master, what are you doing? I told you this story many times.

[10:48]

I was riding with Suzuki Roshi on an airplane from San Francisco to Portland, Oregon. And when we got on the plane, he said, I'm going to And I don't remember at what point it occurred to me, but I did kind of think, is this Zen teaching? This is a Zen teacher, right? Is he teaching me Zen or is he teaching me Japanese? I did kind of think, hmm. And maybe I thought, well, I'm not worthy of Zen instruction, so he's just teaching me Japanese in the meantime. I didn't think, oh, he's showing off because he knows Japanese. I didn't think that. But I did think, you know, doesn't he have something better to teach me than to count people in Japanese?

[11:52]

But I did understand that he wanted me to learn Japanese, so I went along. I didn't think he was teaching me Zen, actually. So I didn't ask him, what are you doing? And this story is more clear. The student's in the middle of practicing. The teacher's asking him, are you doing the practice? What's the intention here? And the student says, the intention is to make a Buddha. Now our teacher is going to interact some more here by rubbing the tile. The student responds by saying, what are you doing, master? I've also told this story many times.

[12:59]

I had the opportunity to go to a class taught by a poet. A poet who said, I'm not really a poet, I'm really a scholar. And I'm writing poetry now. But this poet did win a Pulitzer Prize for poetry. And... his name was John Berryman and he was teaching a class on Don Quixote and he opened Don Quixote and started reading it and I think in the first sentence it says something like in a certain part of La Mancha there lived a man who was rather over 40 And John Berryman almost collapsed in his response.

[14:06]

I won't frighten you by doing what he did, but he really kind of like screamed and said in a screaming voice, Cervantes isn't going to tell us how old he is. Rather over 40. That was a big deal to Mr. Berryman. And to Matsu, it's a big deal that his teacher was rubbing a tile on a stone. Now, if some kids say, rather over 40, we might not get upset. But if Cervantes says, rather over 40, what's going on? And if the great Zen master is rubbing a tile on a stone, What's going on? Is he a perfect child? Is he a clown? Is he a great Buddha? Is he a swan?

[15:08]

What's going on? Anyway, when Mr. Berryman did that, I thought, that's the way it is. to feel that way about things. And Mr. Bearman had a heart. It was very difficult for him to tolerate his sensitivity. But still, I thought, that's good. That's the way. I would like to read that. And now I'm trying to read this story like that. And I'm being assisted by you and by

[16:11]

Dogen Zenji. And by Matsu, who says, teacher. And Dogen Zenji comments, well, who could fail to ask? Or who could fail to see that he was polishing a stone, polishing the tile. Who could fail to see that he was polishing the tile? He didn't say he was polishing the tile. He hasn't said that yet. He's just rubbing a tile on the stone. Who could fail to see that he was polishing a tile? And then he says, who could see? Who can see that he's polishing a tile?

[17:14]

If I was there, I would have noticed that he was polishing a tile. Yeah, who could fail? But who could see? By the way, who could fail to see that I'm polishing a tile now? Who could fail to see it? But who can see it? How do I know I'm polishing a tile? Because Dogen Zenji told me so. Still, polishing a tile has been questioned in this way. See, polishing a tile.

[18:23]

Who could see polishing a tile? Still, polishing a tile has been questioned in this way. What are you doing? Polishing a tile is going on. What are you doing? So I appreciate this polishing a tile is. What are you doing? What are you doing is polishing a tile. Teacher's polishing a tile.

[19:28]

Student says, what are you doing? Who's polishing a tile? They're both polishing a tile. What are you doing is polishing a tile. What are you doing polishing tiles? This land and other lands may differ, but there is the essential message polishing the tiles never ceases.

[20:31]

The teacher hasn't yet told us the answer to the question, what are you doing? We're already saying that he's polishing a tile. And we're already realizing that if we wonder about what he's doing, we are polishing a tile. And now we hear the essential message, tile polishing never ceases Not only should we avoid deciding that what we see is what we see, we should firmly be convinced that there is an ability to be studied in all things.

[22:02]

not only should we avoid thinking that what we see is what we see in other words we should realize that whatever we see that's our own view we do not see what we see we see our own view of what we see therefore This is and must continue to be tile polishing. The essential message is to be studied. The essential message is to be studied in all ten activities.

[23:21]

The essential message of Don Quixote is to be studied in Cervantes not telling us how old Don Quixote is. is to be studied every inhale and every exhale. This tile polishing, the teachers, the students saying the intention is to make a Buddha. You want to make a Buddha? Huh? Well, you may not want to, but apparently the intention was, when the intention is to make a Buddha, then what? Polishing. The intention is to make a Buddha, then what?

[24:30]

Well, then polish tiles. Does polishing tiles make a Buddha? Yeah. I thought something else made Buddhas. I thought living in a monastery made Buddhas. I thought doing prostrations made a Buddha. I thought sitting in meditation. I thought studying the scriptures. I thought teaching students. I thought having a teacher. Many things were what? or making a Buddha, but I didn't know that polishing a tile was making a Buddha. Hey, teacher, you're asking me about the intention to make a Buddha. What are you doing? Are you interested in making a Buddha, too? Well, I wouldn't be surprised, since you are a Buddha. But what's this tile polishing?

[25:33]

What is that? Buddha? So the teacher is saying, the message is that the 10,000 activities are to be studied. And also, studying, I'm like, okay, whatever I'm doing is making Buddha. Also, you can say, what are you doing? You're making Buddha? Yeah. What are you doing? I'm making Buddha. But asking the question and polishing the tile are the same thing. And they're both making Buddha. Among who? For whom? For the Buddhas. That's for whom. This is another example of not defiling.

[26:40]

You're sitting. If you're polishing a tile, you don't just polish the tile. You wonder what you're doing. How did I get into tile polishing work? It's hard to remember what we're doing. We're making Buddha. But the instruction is there is no... One way to put it is there's no lack of passages into the Dharma of things. It's a dead end in Dharma study. There's no place you get to where you can't go deeper. Like to say, well, this is it. That defiles it. No. You can say this is it, but This is it.

[27:41]

Remember, that's tile polishing. That's not ending the story. Tile polishing never ceases. You're still tile polishing. And by the way, is that a little bit ridiculous? Well, that's the next part. Now we've got the teaching. Now, when Suzuki Roshi was teaching me to count people in Japanese, I didn't say, what are you doing? but he might have said, I'm trying to make you into a Japanese person.

[28:50]

And the example here isn't such a big stretch. Putting a tile into a mirror, you might say, but I still might have said, how can you make me into a Japanese person by teaching me to count people in Japanese? I mean, most Japanese people are not sitting on an airplane, getting that kind of... Only to Americans do you have to teach them like that. So how's that going to make me Japanese? Well, he didn't say that because I didn't ask him. If I'd asked him, he might have said, I'm trying to make you into a Buddha. And then I might have said, okay. We're talking. But the great ancestor did ask, what are you doing?

[29:59]

Nanyue said, I'm polishing this tile to make a mirror. Now, I don't know if any of you would let that one pass. But maybe you would say, things are getting a little strange now. Maybe I'll ask, how are you going to do that? How are you going to make a mirror out of polishing a tile? And as you know, then Nanyue said, how are you going to make a Buddha by sitting meditation? We're not into how you're going to make a Buddha by sitting meditation yet because we've got to deal with I'm polishing a tile to make a mirror.

[31:15]

Let's not skip over that. we're encouraged to be clear about the meaning of this expression tile to make a mirror some people have faith that there is definitely a reason for saying polishing to make a mirror There is a Genjo Koan. There is a realization of ultimate truth. There is a realization of ultimate truth in polishing this to make a mirror.

[32:17]

Polishing to make a mirror is a Genjo Koan. Some people believe that. That polishing this to make a mirror, this was no mere contrivance. This was the teacher offering the realization of ultimate truth. And this offering has been transmitted for 1200 years. And now you have it. And now that you have it, turning away and touching are both inappropriate.

[33:30]

Now that you have it, what's appropriate is to take care of it without turning away or touching. Polish it without defiling it. And while you're polishing this, it's about what you're doing. What am I doing? What's the intention in polishing this tile? All the details of this story are details of the practice of enlightenment, which is Tile polishing never ceasing, which is what are you doing never ceasing?

[34:38]

And then the answer to what are you doing which never ceases is an answer which never ceases. I'm polishing the tile to make a mirror. I'm polishing a sentient being. I'm practicing a living being to make a Buddha. Well, how can you make a mirror by polishing a tile? How can you make a Buddha by polishing a sentient being? A tile may be a tile and a mirror may be a mirror.

[35:48]

But when we vigorously investigate the principle of polishing, we find that there are many... Of what? Of mirrors. Of Buddhas. So, like, there's an essay called The Ancient Mirror. There's another essay called The Bright Mirror. And we also have the... There's various mirrors that we have. These are standard models of mirrors in the tradition. Oh, by the way, how are these mirrors made? How is the ancient mirror and the bright mirror and the jewel, precious jewel mirror made? They're made by polishing tile.

[36:53]

Fortunately for us, tile polishing has never ceased. So mirrors are being made, jewel mirrors are being made by polishing. But I would suggest to you that the mirror is made by polishing the tile, but the tile that's polished never becomes the mirror. But tile polishing never ceases. And if you understand that the tile that's being polished should become the mirror, then the tile polishing might be undefiled.

[38:10]

If the practice is going on and it's undefiled, That practice makes the Buddha, makes the mirror, makes the jewel mirror, makes the precious, ancient, bright mirror. I'm polishing the tile to make a mirror. And then Matsu says, how can you make a mirror by polishing a tile and the Buddha? Nanue says, how can you make a Buddha by sitting meditation?

[39:15]

By the sitting meditation Maybe that's enough, rather than go on to the next question.

[40:30]

Is that okay? Is that enough? That's a lot. It's a lot to hear that tile polishing never ceases. And just check it out. Take care of it. It's never ceasing. Join us. And remember, all your questions are part of the great Buddha way, polishing a tile to make a Buddha. Yes? Master Ma? You hold it horizontally. Horizontally. Like this.

[42:23]

Master Ma. Master Ma and his polishing of the tile. Well, he didn't actually polish the tile in this story. But are you talking about later? Polisher? Nanyue is the tile polisher in this story. I've just wondered the reason that they didn't polish the tile with a soft fabric, and they picked... When you polish a tile with a stone, or as you were doing with your ring, you're only scratching it. You're scratching the tile. If you had only been there at the time, you could have asked him that. Did you wonder about the stone part, why they chose a stone? I did wonder, and what I thought was there happened to be a stone nearby.

[43:33]

He used what was available. However, if you had a soft, some soft fabric, and you might have said, teacher, here, use this. So I have a story. My story around... The stone is that we oftentimes make a mess out of our lives. And... We scratch it. We're using the stone to really make a mess out of it while we think we're making a mirror. And then through the process of scratching our life, Somehow we become Buddhas. Right. Through the process of scratching our life somehow, the scratching process makes a Buddha.

[44:41]

It isn't so much that we become Buddhas, the scratching process makes Buddhas somehow. But certainly this teaching is still a paradox. Paradox, right. There's a lot of paradoxes here. The sixth ancestor received transmission when he actually said that we were already enlightened. We didn't have to polish. the mirror. Is that how he received the robe? Well, one story is he received transmission by you know, actually it was a process. First of all, he was, you know, first of all he heard the Diamond Sutra in Guangzhou and he woke up.

[45:54]

Then he walked to northern China and he met the fifth ancestor and the fifth ancestor said, where are you from? And he said, I'm from the south. And the fifth ancestor said, Well, you're a barbarian. You can't study Buddhism. And the sixth ancestor said, in the Buddha way, there's no north or south. So that started the transmission process between them. The little boy, the young man, transmitted to the old man by his response. The old man transmitted to the young man by recognizing him and telling him to go work in the rice-pounding house.

[46:57]

So he went there. he ground the rice, he polished the, well actually he didn't polish it, he just ground it and sifted it for eight months. And then they had this poetry contest and this young man who was not yet the sixth ancestor, he made his offering and the fifth ancestor recognized that he had matured during those eight months of rice pounding. So then he went to see him in the rice-pounding area, and he asked him, how's it going? Has the rice been sifted? And he said, yes, it's been sifted, but it hasn't been polished. And then he shook the sifter three times, and the ancestor whacked the sifter with his staff three times, and said, come on up to my place sometime around midnight.

[48:05]

So he went up there at midnight. And what happened there, we don't know exactly. But that sort of finished the deal. That was a story about... This is a... Yeah, I said it was a poetry contest. Remember? The poetry contest? Yeah. Yeah, the teacher said, we're going to have a poetry contest. And the person who wins, I think, is going to be my successor, maybe. And the head monk was a very well-respected practitioner. And all the other monks thought, well, he's going to win, so no need even to join the competition. Just let him do it. And the head monk actually was somewhat humble.

[49:11]

He was a very good monk. He was humble. And he thought, my understanding is not so good, so I'm going to put on a pillar, but I'm not going to sign it. If the sixth ancestor doesn't like it, I'll just leave town. And if he likes it, I'll accept being his successor. And the fifth ancestor did look at the poem and didn't think it was very good, but he told everybody it was really good. And then the young man, who wasn't even yet ordained, asked somebody what was on the pillar because he couldn't read Chinese. And the person translated it and he said, oh, what's that? And he said, that's what... That's the head monk's understanding. He said, oh, I don't agree. And someone said, you arrogant. He was more arrogant. The ancestors are sometimes arrogant.

[50:15]

And they need some polishing. He said, I don't agree. And so this person said, you arrogant fool. You can't even read Chinese and you're criticizing the head monk's poem, which the ancestors said was great. He said, you want to write a poem? He said, yeah, but you have to write it for me because I can't write Chinese. So he dictated his poem. And actually, I missed that part, is that when the sixth ancestor saw the poem, he realized that the rice pounder was ripe. So then he went to see him in the rice pounding area. Yeah. The poem was kind of reflecting on the other poem. But his poem was, there's no mirror stand.

[51:16]

Enlightenment is not a tree and there's no mirror stand. There's no stand for the bright mirror. No dust can alight. What need is there for wiping it away? I think that was his poem. Is that right? That was his poem. So, is there a paradox? Is there a paradox? Is there a paradox here between the two teachings? To tell you the truth, To tell you the truth about how I feel, that story is kind of like, what do you call it, it's hard for me to see much paradox there. Except the paradox of the uneducated person who understood better than the educated person. And the paradox of the teacher saying to this excellent person that there's no, that people in the South, the barbarians can't practice Buddhism, that's kind of a paradox.

[52:31]

and the young monk setting the teacher, the master, straight. That's another paradox. To take this excellent student and send him away from the other monks to work in the rice-pounding area, that's kind of a paradox. There's some tension there. Although you could say, it makes sense to me because he wanted to protect him from the other monks. They might have treated him badly if this newcomer had been promoted to the leader of the group all of a sudden. So, there's actually, now that I look at it, there's lots of paradoxes in this story. The paradox that I see is where the sixth ancestor was saying that there's no dust, we're already enlightened, so why be wiping it away? Yeah, that's another paradox. Paradox of we deluded people actually have no delusions. There's kind of a paradox there.

[53:33]

There's a tension between between and Buddhas. There's a paradox. There's a lot of tension there. There's also tension and tension between teachers and students. Are they the same? Are they different? Turning away and touching are both I, too, had the privilege of studying with John Berryman a little more than 50 years ago.

[55:28]

I spent a summer with him at the Indiana University School of Letters program, and he was teaching major and minor form in poetry. And I learned most of what I know of poetry that summer. And I learned only a very small amount of what he had to teach. And still sometimes think back on it and wonder at that. But that's almost a life of learning only a very little bit of what's offered to me at a time. During that summer he offered a public talk in which he discussed poetry and the writing of poetry. And he said that poetry was like going out in a rainstorm and praying to be struck by lightning. And at the time I was struck by the praying to be struck by lightning

[56:38]

I've realized that really the astonishing part of that story is going out in the rainstorm over and over again. Matsa and Nanue, it's amazing that Matsa had to ask Nanue what he was doing. It was obvious that he was an inveterate. polisher of tiles that he kept turning tiles into mirrors over and over again. He hadn't even hardly finished with one on another. John Berryman. In a way that for him, going to class was like going into a rainstorm.

[57:45]

And he got struck in most classes when the bell went off. So, yeah, he was almost killed in every class by the rain. And he sort of had to go in the rainstorm because They paid him to go out in the rainstorm and he needed the money to buy alcohol so he could stand the next lightning bolt. The poetry got made in the process. Sadly, ultimately, he couldn't stand it anymore. Too bad. Thank you for sticking around.

[58:47]

Thank you for coming into this weather system. Please stay around. Please continue. Yeah, when I imagined John Berryman living a few more years, it would have gotten really messy. It was already messy. You know, he would go into the hospital to detox from his alcoholism and then he'd come out and he'd be healthy for a little while, then he would be this great teacher, and then he would start drinking again and deteriorate, go back into the hospital, in and out like that.

[59:51]

And if he had stopped drinking, that would have been another mess. It was very messy. And when it's messy like that, sometimes people think, well, maybe I should go someplace else. So, I hope I can stand the mess that's coming. Because I know it helps people to watch somebody cope with a mess. I think I have the same question as everyone else. So what's the difference between polishing and scratching?

[61:00]

I don't think that there's a difference between polishing and scratching. I think scratching frequently occurs in the polishing process. Polishing can be defiled or undefiled. Maybe we could say the scratching is defiling. And polishing maybe can be an undefiled process where you're not polishing to make something into something other than itself as a defilement to the thing. You're just polishing How can I polish anything? How can you polish anything? How can you polish anything? It's not so much that you're polishing something, but that you're polishing.

[62:05]

Polishing is an example of intention. It's a thought I intend to polish. Yeah, or you intend to make a Buddha. You intend to make a Buddha by, you know, or rather, in this sitting, in this practice, there is an intention to make a Buddha. And how to do that, how to practice that way without defiling it, without defiling the polishing. This is part of the education process. And we have to ask questions all the time. So how can... Another way to do it is to understand that everything, every situation is an opportunity to study.

[63:21]

then if we're that way with everything, then we don't scratch anything. Then the process isn't defiled. And this undefiled way makes Buddhas. So our understanding is what changes defilement. I mean, what is defilement? How can anything be defiled? Nothing can be defiled. However, if we don't remember that, it seems like things are defiled. Nothing can be defiled, but if you think this is an opportunity to practice now, or maybe rather this isn't an opportunity to practice, but later, when things are a little bit better, a little bit brighter, a little bit more intelligent, less messy, then we could practice.

[64:41]

That defiles this. It can't be defiled. It can't be defiled. But if we don't act in a certain way, it's like we think it can be. We disrespect this. This isn't an opportunity. This isn't what I thought Buddhism would be. I didn't think it was polishing tiles. Now, a lot of people think, oh, well, it is sitting in meditation. That's what I thought Buddhism would be. Meditation. And what is his teacher doing? He's rubbing a tile on a stone. Is that Buddhism? But he did say, he didn't just think to himself, that guy's crazy. He respected him. So he assumed, I guess, this is my teacher. Still, he seems to be getting senile.

[65:42]

So I think I'll ask him what he's doing. And then he tells him, and it sounds very strange. But again, this is an opportunity. So I don't defile that. This isn't the practice. And my asking him about it isn't the practice. Matter of fact, I'm asking him now, and I'm doing the same thing he's doing. And when he was polishing the tile, he was doing the same thing I was doing. So I'm going to ask them a question. Then we verify that there's no defilement. But if we skip over something, we think that thing's defiled. We think that thing's unworthy. This isn't the Buddha polishing a tile. So I'll just... I'm going to find a better teacher. Matter of fact, what did you ask me for in the first place?

[66:48]

No. That would seem to defile things. If you think about defilement, then it's like that's as much as you're going to see about defilement. And so we don't do that. We don't see any. We don't see any missed opportunities. That's one way to put it. Another way to put it is we see everything as an opportunity. It means we don't see it as not an opportunity. That's the undefiled way. But if you miss, it's not really defiled. It's just you have to admit that you thought it wasn't worthy of you. You thought this was a subnormal or sub-average, below-average dharma opportunity. Wait for a better one. That seems to be defiling. That seems to be afflictive. That seems to cause suffering. That seems to scratch the mirror.

[67:53]

But not really. And if you use everything this way, you know, There is no way so that a Zen teacher can spend his time polishing tiles. And it's like, this is a celebrated example of teaching Zen. It's not defiled by a brick, a scratch. There is no dust on the mirror. So we don't need to wipe it away. But don't we still try to find the soft cloth at all expense? You know, we try to find the tool that will make the mirror. Well, sometimes soft cloths are appropriate and sometimes they're not. If we don't have a soft cloth, we might not even think of it.

[68:58]

You know, baby here to take care of. We don't even know anything but this. And then suddenly everything's a soft cloth and that's what we deal with. We're just inundated with softness and we accept it. And you know, we really, oh it's time to take the cloth. And now it's gone and we study a rough brick. And now it's gone and we study an overly sensitive alcoholic genius. In this way we develop wisdom by studying everything. Not by getting caught by our discriminations, but by studying whatever they are. The one that's given now. This one. And this one?

[70:05]

You can add and this one. And this one? Yes. So I don't think you're getting senile, but... But what are you doing? I'm talking to you to make a Buddha. Aren't you going to ask me how talking to ears can make a Buddha?

[71:07]

You just did. When I hear you talking, read stories about the ancient Zen teachers.

[72:11]

Can you hear him in the back? They can. It seems like you guys have the habit to use a rather confusing language. So sometimes this idea or this question arise in my mind if that's really the most appropriate thing, the most appropriate way to talk about this kind of truth. It would be maybe easier sometimes for people, a few, simplify phrases and not talk about polishing tiles, maybe just express things in a more clear way. Well, can you give me an example of a more clear way? Well... What helps for me is to, I don't know how to say, to try to realize that I am not this body and I am not this mind.

[73:45]

In some way, I mean in some way I know I am, but we usually, are caught up by this idea of this identity, this limited identity of body and mind, which is only here. That would be one thing for me that works maybe sometimes better than thinking about polishing tiles. What is better for you is to be mindful of what? Of not identifying with what is only here. So it's helpful for you to be mindful to not identify with what is only here? You're doing it again, this confusing thing.

[74:47]

I'm doing it. Oh, thank you. That was helpful. You're welcome. Roshi, yesterday you talked about strangling the self and this being in balance and out of balance and the relation between freedom and control.

[76:16]

You spoke about control. So could you speak about that, please? I was talking about the paradox of freedom and control. The tension between the two. That in some sense when we're into control we're not free, but we're free to try to control. And if we give up controlling, we're free. But then we have problems with being free because we're afraid of not being in control. Human beings want to be in control and free.

[77:16]

And I'm not saying they don't go together because in fact the impulse or the wish for freedom and the wish for control seem to be part of being a human. Isn't this called the land of the free? The home of the brave? The brave who get things under control? We are controlling the whole universe, at least the whole planet. We're in control of the planet and we're the land of the free. Those go together in this country. It's the most controlling country, apparently the most controlling country, and the country that most talks about how... And there's a lot of paradox and tension and warfare associated with this situation. So we have the opportunity to develop a balanced and peaceful way to bear this...

[78:19]

impulse to control you and the impulse to set you free. I'm going to control you into freedom. I'm going to control you into liberation. I'm going to dial you into freedom and keep it right there. And you are going to become... But the Buddha said, we can't do this. The Buddha said, I want everybody to be free, but I can't make people free. But I want to, I want to, I want to, I want to help everybody enter the way and become free. This is what I want, what I aspire to, this is what I strive for, but I don't seek it. So here we're sitting and we make a lot of, there's a lot, there's a lot in this practice ...to slip into or go over towards, lean into control, like controlling our posture, controlling our, as sometimes people teach us then, is control your posture, control your breathing, and control your mind.

[79:37]

That's the way some people teach us then. I must admit, when I hear them say that, I feel like, you know, a little bit like I'm trying to get them under control. and, you know, close their mouth and erase their writing. But I, you know, I try to like let these Zen people go around saying, control your dog, control your children, control your mind, control your body, and control your thoughts, and control your breath. I kind of like, hey, you guys are welcome here too in the Zen family. You're my babies. You're my daddies. You're my mommies. You're my gods. I really respect you. And I really disagree with some of the implications there. But I don't really disagree because I know that's just part of human nature is to control your posture, control your breathing, and control your mind.

[80:38]

That's part of human nature. People talk like that. And everybody wants to be free. One time I was walking down Van Ness Avenue in a city called San Francisco. You know Van Ness Avenue? Well, Van Ness is one of the main streets and is named after one of the governors of California or something, Mr. Van Ness. I was walking down the street on my way to jump into the ocean. And there was this... It was a time of the Iran-Costra hostages. These people had been captured and kept as hostage for, how long was it, a year? Yeah. I was walking down the road, down the street to go jump in the ocean, and I saw this newspaper box on the top of the

[81:42]

On the top of the newspaper it said, freedom. And I just broke into tears as I was walking down the street. The word freedom, I didn't even know what it had to do with. But just the word moving to us. And then there's control. Big headline, control. There's headlines like that too. We got him under control. This is part of our nature and it's hard to stand it. It's hard to bear it. It's hard to bear being a who wants to get these people under control. Get all these people to like me. Get all these people to, you know, approve of me. Get all these people to be happy. That's part of us. And then the other part of it is I'd like to be free. wishing to control everybody and wishing to control myself and my weight, you know, and my rate of degeneration and my loss of this and loss of that.

[82:55]

I'd like to control my egg. I'd like to learn Spanish rapidly. I'd like to just control that. Wouldn't that be fun, just suddenly I'm speaking Spanish with no accent? Oh, that would be fun. I know that's not going to happen probably, but there's a little bit of me that wants to kind of like... So that's... Encouraging is live in the middle of those two. Don't lean towards freedom is the path of freedom. Of course, not leaning towards control is the path of freedom. But to avoid control and avoiding freedom does also not mean balance. So how to be... between those two, that's what I'm talking about. And that's what I'm talking about in this story. I'm trying to balance between the freedom of the story and controlling the story and the story controlling me and you controlling me and so on.

[83:57]

Trying to accept all controlling impulses and all phantoms of control. in all freedom impulses and phantoms of freedom. Accept. And be careful. Because as you know, our government goes to war for freedom and goes for war to control. we want to control those who fight against our freedom. So going towards freedom or control either way is not peaceful. And if you find the balance between the two, which is peace, grasping that is not peaceful. So not only do we want to find balance between these two extremes,

[85:05]

But we want to not attach to the balance. Because that, again, is antithetical to peace. And we are told that it is possible to not only obtain peace, but to let go of it. And those who really live for the welfare of others have the easy time attaining peace. And because they're living for the welfare of others, they easily give it away. If you're really living for the welfare of others, you get a lot of help not trying to control others. And you get a lot of help You look troubled. Something come up for you?

[86:06]

May I ask another question? Yeah. So are others necessary? Are others necessary? Our fundamental nature as living beings and as Buddhas is that we depend on others. So others are necessary. Matter of fact, our life is nothing but, absolutely nothing but, nothing in addition, nothing less than, others. We are just others. That's all we are. So yes, in order to exist, we need others. And we've got them. So now the question is, how to not defile our relationship with them while we polish ties with them.

[87:11]

He asked another question. He just did without getting my permission. This one you have my permission for. The last one you snuck in there without asking me. But I know it's hard to ask a question without asking a question. So you studied the tango? Yes, I do study the tango. And you have to have another to study the tango. You can't study the tango. It takes two to tango, yes. So how can you dance the tango with someone other than your wife, Reb? How can I? Yeah. Isn't there a priest? No, this is a serious... I know it's silly. I'm struggling with this. Yes. How can I... I dance tango... you know, for my wife.

[88:24]

And... So I started dancing tango when you go to tango classes. You can just say, I'm here with this person and I'm going to dance with this person in the whole class. Some people are allowed to do that. But they don't recommend it because, well, especially if you're in the position of being a leader in the dance, it's very good to have a variety of followers so you can find out if your leadership is If you just dance with one person, they can kind of learn what you're intending. You can suggest this, and then they don't seem to understand. You can say, when I do this, I mean that. And they say, oh, okay. But when you meet someone you don't know, and your invitations are unclear, you don't know what you're talking about. So it's good to have different partners. But I studied the tango

[89:27]

I mean, I actually started to go to classes and move with other human beings' bodies with my wife, for my wife. And I kept practicing, but I felt funny about going to the tango class and dancing with these other people if she wasn't there. So I stopped. Now she started again, and I'm not going. But if I go, it would be primarily to her because I don't need to go to tango classes to express my devotion to other people. I go to Sashis instead and do this tango for my wife. but also for you. You look like you have a problem.

[90:41]

Do you? Do you still have a problem after all this time? Yes, indeed. You're welcome. Are your feet awake? Your feet as awake as you are, did you say? Linda, come. Would you escort her, please? I want to thank you for the story this morning.

[91:53]

It was illuminating. You're welcome for the story that illuminated. And I had the same question about defilement, about how can you defile the jewel, how can you defile or how can you defile anything? By imagination. Yeah, so I heard you say, a part of it you seem to be saying by ignoring or by disrespecting, but do you mean other things by defilement? Is it about defilement? Is it being self-referent or is it being what? What? Your question is what? What is... Not defile... You want to know what defilement is?

[92:58]

Well, yeah. This context, like here it is, the jewel, and this polishing the mirror, polishing the tile, and how do we defile it? Are there many ways of defiling? How do we defile the jewel? You were saying it was because of how we see, we believe we're defiling it by our view or our behavior. Yeah, if you think something's dirty and worthless, that view is defiling. If you disrespect some living being, that disrespect is a type of defilement. disrespecting things, looking down on them, devaluing them, hating them, or thinking that you own them.

[94:01]

These are forms of defilement, greed and hate. Those are defilements, but they're based on the basic defilement. You like that? Your legs like it? So the basic defilement is to Imagine that you're separate from things, that you have independent existence. That's the basic defilement. Which is, you know, it's ignorance. The basic defilement is ignorance. And then the other kinds of defilement, like disrespect, etc., that basic one. Because that basic one, from that basic one we feel, you know, we feel all kinds of pain and we feel afraid and we feel anxiety. We feel confined. You know, the word anxiety, which means the root of the word anxiety is to be strangled or choked.

[95:06]

So when we feel like everybody's separate from us, then we potentially can feel supported or choked by beings. Based on that we have other afflictions, other attempts, other ways of thinking and imagining to help us deal with this basic affliction, and that's our karma. So first the basic affliction and then other afflictions and karma come from that. And then as a result of karma we have a consciousness which carries the results of those actions based on affliction which support the arising of more false imaginations which lead to more karma which leads to more conscious results of the karma and supports the arising of more afflictive, defiled imagination.

[96:09]

We imagine things which don't exist, like defilement or purity. Purity is another thing we imagine. But purity doesn't make any sense. aside from defilement. And defilement is not ultimately real. You can't find it ever. It cannot be found and neither can... But we can realize, in a sense, we can realize defilement and we can realize purity. We realize purity by completely embracing defilement, even though it's an illusion. It doesn't exist. And when we completely embrace it, we verify that it doesn't exist, ultimately. But if we shrink away from... well, if we shrink away, that's a defilement, and if we shrink away from shrinking away, the shrinking away gets stronger.

[97:18]

If we compassionately embrace shrinking away, the shrinking away loses its function. And in that case, there's no defilement. And no purity either. So purity isn't really the opposite of defilement, right? I mean, it's not... Sort of is. But when you're speaking about... I felt like you were sort of handing... us and me, a precious jewel this morning. And you were saying, that's what I heard, I felt. Oh, definitely. I'm always handing you a precious jewel. Yes. Always. In this case, it was part of the story. Always handing you a precious jewel. And you were saying, and don't defile it. And so I think you were saying, remember. Were you saying, remember?

[98:22]

Remember not to defile it. That's what you were saying. That's what I'm saying now. I'm saying, remember, don't defile it. And how do you not defile it? Well, welcome it, etc. Be compassionate to it. And as your compassion grows, you will come to not imagine it falsely, or you will come to not attach to the realization of it. And then there will be no defilement of it. Thank you, that's clear. I did have, I have a question, or I have a wondering, and I don't know if you want to say anything more about it now, but I wondered about your comment about the meditation. Yeah. And... what you were referring to.

[99:26]

I'm referring to what is sometimes called old age. Old age, that's what I thought. And since I can relate to that subject, I wondered if you would have anything to say about that. Anything to say about relating to old age? Yes, you mentioned it this morning. Yeah, so just in terms of recent comments, I'd try to be upright between trying to control the aging process and being free of it. There's two impulses that come up in relationships, to be free of aging and to try to control the aging. Try to not be addicted to either side. And try to meet this aging process as though it were a precious baby or a precious jewel.

[100:39]

Try to meet drool running down the cheek. Try to meet loss of memory. loss of hearing, loss of vision, loss of the ability to walk, loss of strength, as precious jewels. And again, treat the precious jewels without turning away from them or touching them. Don't be possessive of your loss of memory. to welcome being embarrassed by shrinking and decreasing. Welcome the embarrassment, love the embarrassment as a precious gift, as a great opportunity for investigating the Dharma.

[101:52]

There's nothing that's not an opportunity for investigating Dharma, including sickness and death. I was realizing that when I came in the other day and I saw people of all different ages that I had kind of an insight that Actually, it's like we're walking through this world in different clothing at different times and we attach ourselves. Some of us who are getting older are thinking with trepidation about it. But we don't need to attach ourselves to the form that we're going to have now. Or push it away or We can learn not to push it away. Huh? We can learn not to push it away. And we can learn not to attach to it.

[102:56]

This is called polishing it. It's a big work, I think. Hmm? It's a big work. It's a big work. It's an endless work. Welcome. Our intentions equally extend to every...

[103:37]

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