we were talking about a great ancestor, Matsu, asking his teacher, Master, what are you doing? Later that day, I was looking at a lineage chart, a woodblock for printing lineage charts. It's a woodblock probably from the 17th or 18th century. The wood is black, and it's on the wall next to the little altar in the Cloud Hall.

[01:02]

It's hard to read the characters because they're written backwards for printing. But still, I tried. I just wanted to see if that lineage chart had Nanyue and Matsu on it. And it did. It had Nanyue and Matsu on it. And on the left side it has Nanyue and Matsu. On the right side Chingyuran and Shirto or Sekhito, Seigen Gyoshi and Sekhito Gisen. We chant here. For example, during morning service we sometimes chant that lineage.

[02:10]

That's the lineage which leads down to Dogen, but also this other lineage leads down to Dogen. And the lineage chart we have, we have the lineage going through Matsu and the lineage going to Shurto, the lineage going through Nanyue and the lineage going through Shinsa, going down and joining in Dogen because Dogen had two Zen teachers, one of the so-called Rinzai line and one of the so-called Soto line. So the ancestors in this story are are our ancestors even though they're not Soto Zen ancestors. So both these great ancestors of descending from the sixth ancestor are our ancestors. So I was looking at the chart because some Soto Zen charts only show the Soto... some Soto Zen lineage documents only

[03:19]

the Soto side. But in this school, we show both sides, both the so-called Rinzai and Soto side. And while I was looking at it, somebody came over to me and said, what are you doing? Now you've heard that when someone says, what are you doing, that in this school that's called polishing a tile. And tile polishing is never ceasing. And also asking, what are you doing, is never ceasing. If the question, what are you doing, ceases, we're in trouble.

[04:30]

The Buddha Dharma. I also have a memory that I told you a story about Nanyue going to meet the sixth ancestor. And the sixth ancestor said to him, what is it that thus comes? And Nanyue said, to say it's this, this is the point. And the sixth ancestor said, no practice in realization. And Nanyue said, I don't say there's no practice in realization. I just say that it cannot be defiled. And then some people ask, well, what's defilement?

[05:49]

Is there really any defilement? And, or, you know, what is defilement? And there too, this question, what is defilement, that question is asked from ancient times. What is it? Well, it's what we do. to practice realization. It's what you can't do to what thus comes. It can't be defiled. Therefore, to say, this is the point. This is what point? This is the point of the way that's not defiled. And

[06:50]

When Matsu started to teach, one of his repetitive teachings is, it's not necessary to cultivate meditation. Just don't be defiled. If you're practicing meditation also, just don't be defiled. When you're sitting in meditation, just don't be defiled. You can't be, and since you can't be, don't be. And yet, we need to be conscious. We need to be vigilant because karmic consciousness has a background of saying this is it. Karmic consciousness has a history, or the history of Karmic consciousness is going around saying this is it and this is not it.

[08:02]

So it's not, you know, there's not a law against saying this is it and not this is not it. It's just that saying this is it misses the point. And the practice is to cultivate and be vigilant and be very careful and do not get involved in saying, this is it. And Nanyue said, I don't know, the sixth answer, yeah, taking care of this non-defilement, taking care of this not missing the point, is what the Buddhists take care of. So this whole discussion here about what the ancestors intending while sitting is about practice. Realizing that the practice cannot be defiled.

[09:08]

All day long, practice. Just don't defile it. But you don't really have to do any particular kind of cultivation. All you need to do is just not defile what you're doing. Just don't lean into, this is it, or lean away, this is it. That's all. But that's difficult. Because, again, we have a consciousness which carries the results of innumerable occasions of saying, this is it, and this is not it. So it supports the arising of a consciousness which says, this is it. So when the teacher says, what is it that thus comes? We're at risk of saying, well, it's this, or it isn't this. So Nanyue wanted to practice a way that cannot be defiled.

[10:31]

The sixth ancestor agreed with that. And Matsu also taught a way that cannot be defiled. All you got to do is live your life and not defile it. And the previous discussion here about, you know, was it, I think, do not get involved in thinking that what you think, or excuse me, do not get involved or avoid believing that what you see is what you see. In other words, remember that all you've got is your own view. And don't get involved in that. What are you doing?

[11:37]

I'm polishing a tile to make a mirror. And then Matsu says, well, how can you make a mirror by polishing a tile? And Nanue says, how can you make a Buddha in sitting meditation? Or in sitting, how can you make a Buddha? Or how can you make a Buddha by sitting meditation? So I propose to you that this tile polishing is always going on. That students are asking teachers questions and that's tile polishing.

[12:49]

Teachers are asking students questions and that's tile polishing. And although before you heard this story you might not have known that all these many stories asking teachers questions and teachers asking students questions, you wouldn't have known that this is tile polishing until Nanue came along and started to polish tiles. Before that, people didn't know that Buddhism was tile polishing. They thought it was teachers giving teachings and students giving students questions. Now we realize, oh, this is tile polishing because the teacher was polishing a tile. In other words, whatever the students and teachers are doing never ceases.

[13:51]

They're always practicing together. And it isn't that That's it. They're practicing, now they're not. The actual practice is always going on. It never ceases. There's always tile polishing. And in the ancient way of tile polishing, there's always the Buddha way. And in the Buddha way there's always tile polishing. And there's always people looking at lineage charts, the negative image of a lineage chart in California. And people coming up and saying, what are you doing?

[14:54]

This is always going on in the Buddha way. And in the Buddha way, Questions like this. Now, how can you make Buddha in sitting meditation? This is clearly understood. Seated meditation does not wait for making a Buddha. Seated meditation does not work towards making a Buddha. Seated meditation does not expect making a Buddha.

[15:57]

Master seated in meditation What's his intention? To make a Buddha. Seated meditation has nothing to do with making a Buddha. And I could say The doctrine, the teaching that seated meditation has nothing to do with making a Buddha, this doctrine is not hidden. how can there in seated how can in seated meditation there be making a Buddha and then Master Ma then what's right

[17:06]

such a short little Chinese phrase as, then what is right, for maybe probably four characters. It's a little, a very dynamic little expression which can go all over the place. And expectations are kind of vibrating. yeah, the translation of that expression plus the translations of the interpretation of that question vibrate quite a bit. You can watch now. One way that this then what is right is interpreted is This seems to be a question about one thing. This seems to be a question about another thing. Okay.

[18:37]

That's a simplest interpretation. It's a question about one thing, but it actually is a question about another thing. This seems to be a question about What? Or this seems to be a question about right? If it seems to be a question about what is right, then it's also a question about right is what? This seems to be a question about making a Buddha. but it's actually a question about sitting meditation. This seems to be a question about sitting meditation, but it's actually a question about making a Buddha. Then what is right?

[19:42]

This saying resembles a simple question about this. it is also asking about that, rightness. It seems to be asking about what, but it's also asking about rightness. And then it says, consider for example, and this is another tense verbal expression that vibrates consider for example the occasion when one friend meets another the fact that she is my friend that I am her friend what and right emerge simultaneously.

[20:51]

This is now to be made very simple, temporarily simple, and then it'll start vibrating. Temporary, simple. Zazen has nothing to do with it. Sitting meditation has nothing to do with making a Buddha. Sitting meditation doesn't wait for making a Buddha. It doesn't expect making a Buddha. It doesn't have expectations. That's Zazen. Zazen is having no expectations of making a Buddha. However, what is right? What is sitting meditation? And right is making Buddhas.

[22:08]

What is right? There's no connection between Siddha Meditation and Vajrayana. However, when one meets the other, the fact of one is the fact of the other. Like two friends meeting simultaneously, they arise together. they emerge in this world simultaneously. Zazen's not expecting to make a Buddha, but when there's Zazen, there's making a Buddha. There's no connection, they're simultaneous. This reminds me of an old story, which is inquiry and response come up together.

[23:16]

In that, you know, that great mass of fire that you're not supposed to touch or you're encouraged, you're warned not to touch and you're warned not to turn away from. In that mass of fire of the jewel mirror the inquiry come up together. There's no fire if there's nobody inquiring. There's only a jewel mirror when there's an inquiry. Sitting meditation is the inquiry. Meditation is the response. They come up together. It isn't that you... Inquire and then later you get the response.

[24:18]

It isn't... And later there's making a Buddha. There's no connection between inquiry and response. No connection. They happen at the same time. They're not connected. They're totally intimate and interdependent. There's no such thing as making a Buddha without sitting meditation. There's no sitting meditation without making a Buddha. And when we say that, some people might think, like me, I might think, oh gee, be careful, that sounds sectarian. Because you're saying, what about the people who don't practice sitting meditation? Are you saying that those non-sitting meditators, that they're not there, they're exiled from making Buddha?

[25:26]

I would say, no, they're not exiled. They just don't realize where they're living. They don't realize they're in Buddha's house already. Imperceptibly, everybody is sitting in meditation which is the inquiry which is simultaneously responded to by making a Buddha. Everybody actually is involved in this process, but not everybody is aware of it. Everybody actually is on the undefiled path But if people say, this is it and this is not it, they don't see it. So if I contemplate such teachings as

[26:46]

There's no connection between sitting meditation and making a Buddha. In one sense I feel like, oh, well, that's too bad. Here I am sitting meditation and there's no connection to making Buddha. And then I hear that they emerged simultaneously. Maybe I feel better. But this teaching is to help us not do anything in this process. To be devoted to this undefiled sitting practice, which emerges with making Buddha, to be involved in making Buddha, to be involved with the intention and practice of making Buddha, Understanding that it has no connection to what we're doing, but rather that what we're doing is calling for that all the time.

[27:52]

And to train ourselves to always practice, to always practice making a Buddha. To practice something that's undefiled, that we can't get a hold of. And also remember the teaching that we are easily distracted because of our accumulations. We're easily distracted into this is it rather than what are you doing? What is right? What is undefiled? Being undefiled is what? This is a teaching of suchness. Now you have it. So keep it without holding on to it.

[28:59]

Take care of it without grasping it or rejecting it. Someone recently, quite recently, asked a meditator, what is your intention in sitting in meditation? And then even more recently, someone asked a meditator, someone asked a room full of meditators, What is your confusion in sitting meditation?

[30:10]

And they all said, my confusion is that I can make a Buddha. What is your delusion in sitting meditation? Some people have recently asked, and they all said, my delusion is to make a Buddha. And my delusion is that I heard a teaching that this making a Buddha is not connected to sitting meditation. My delusion of making a Buddha emerges simultaneously with sitting meditation.

[31:20]

And I've heard that this is the undefiled way. And all the Buddhas take care of it. And the delusion, the confusion to make a Buddha is always going on. And part of the confusion is we're doing something different than making Buddha. we sometimes think we're doing something other than sitting zazen. And then we get scared and then we get further confused and we forget again that our further confusion is saying, what are you doing?

[32:26]

So there's an encouragement to ask, what are you doing? Again, a simple translation of comment on then what is right is it seems to be asking about this but actually it's asking about that or it seems to be asking about one thing but it's actually asking about another. In this realm whatever we ask about we're all always asking about something else. Because whenever we ask about making Buddha, we're always asking about sitting meditation, and whenever we ask about the practice, we're talking about the realization.

[33:39]

So it's kind of confusing. Some people feel that, Dogen Zenji feels that when he said, then what is right, that Matsu knew what he was asking. That he knew he was stating what is right. He understood what is right. Can you feel the dynamism there? He understood He understood what is right, but he understood that what is the thing that's right, which is also understanding what is right. He understood that, so then his teacher gave him a first. This next part, for me it's the hardest part. It's so hard that I asked Swedish people to help me understand it.

[34:57]

And Timo... Someday maybe he'll tell you about his amazement. I'm not yet asking you to help me understand what the next part is about. I'm just telling you the next part I find to be the best part. I'll tell you the part, but I don't want to get into it today. It's too difficult. But I'm getting you ready for tomorrow. Tomorrow's going to be really hard. So the student understands. Matsu understands. Well, how does he understand? How does he show his understanding? Well, he says, then what is right? So that's a nice summary of this whole teaching. What is right? It has all the ingredients.

[36:02]

It has what, and it has right. It has questioning. It has assertion. It has meaning of inquiry and response. What and right. What, right. What, right. Right. One, two, three. What, right. One, two, three, what? Yeah, like that. It has that. That's the way it is. That's zazen. One, two, three, what? Buddha, one, two, three. One, two, three, sitting meditation. One, two, three, make a Buddha. Okay, so I'll do sitting meditation. You do make a Buddha. Ready? One, two, three. Sitting meditation. Yeah, like that. So that's a nice summary in the middle of this. Matsu understands this.

[37:02]

He receives this undefiled practice of one, two, three. What? You missed it. See, it's hard. One, two, three, what? He received that undefiled way, transmitted it to thousands of people. And some people that he transmitted it to took care of it for years and years until they became totally like just a very soft pudding of one, two, three, what? And then they could transmit it all the way to now So, we could stop the story right now, but Nanyue is pretending as though, playing along with Matsu, as though what is right is just a question about one thing rather than about another, or rather a question about another rather than a question about one thing.

[38:15]

So he says, an ox cart and the cart stops should you beat the ox or beat the cart this is the hard part and we don't have to go there because we've got the practice then what is right And we can just practice what is right from now on. We don't have to get into this cart thing or beating, you know, or what we call animal abuse. We don't have to get into that. But it's sitting out there, that question, maybe tomorrow we can deal with it. In the meantime, if you don't understand it yet, it will haunt you. Tomorrow you'll understand it and that will be the end of the ghost story.

[39:19]

So I feel that we're so fortunate that we have this wonderful undefiled practice of what is right. of whatever we do is an inquiry, is a request for the Buddhas. And they respond simultaneously with our request that our sitting is what? And it emerges simultaneous with right. What? Right. Right. Right. I mentioned at the beginning of this session and at the beginning of many sessions that the chant we do called, , the means ceremony.

[40:32]

The title of that teaching is, The Ceremony universally encouraging sitting meditation, the ceremony, the ritual. And the character for ritual is a character which has a person. You have two characters. One character is person. The other character is right or rightness. Ceremony is where the person and the rightness come up together. Where the person a mudra a sitting mudra or a standing mudra the person does something with her body and mind and speech and that person that offering that

[41:39]

request and it's met with rightness they meet in the ceremony so we sit here and we offer this person in this posture and simultaneously without delay by the rightness of making enlightened beings you could also change slightly and say, then, whatever is right, whatever you are is right.

[42:41]

Whatever you are is your offering. And it's met by making Buddha. And then just watch out that there's no defilement, no separation, no expectation, no waiting for anything, no working towards anything. Since we're confused beings with intentions, our intention is to make Buddha. Our confusion is to make Buddha. Our delusion is to have lunch or make Buddha. But whatever that is, it's right.

[43:46]

Or whatever that is, is right. Whatever that is, right. So I want to stop now and be quiet for a little while, unless somebody from the kitchen wants to ask a question. Because I have a feeling that the kitchen will leave soon. Is that right? Planning to get out of here quite soon? Yeah. Thank you for coming. What is right? Yesterday someone said to me, nonetheless, blah, blah, blah.

[45:50]

And I thought, hmm, I don't agree. I think it's, some the less, blah, blah, blah. And I thought, I never said that before in my life. I never said, some the less. Have you? You never have, have you? Have you ever said, some the less? I thought, wow, it's the first time in his life I've said, some the less. He was just waiting there, and I didn't notice it was, I missed the opportunity until yesterday. And now I'm saying it again, I say it two days in a row, some the less. Some the less. I'm mentioning this for a good reason. The reason is I just thought what what we said here today has before.

[47:01]

What we said here is really strange and almost no precedent. And this no precedent of the way we talk is totally precedented. The whole tradition is a tradition of unprecedented activity and that's the tradition. Total and unprecedented. And yeah, and right now in... This next part is really quite precedented. The next part is, right now in innumerable world systems, somebody named Rev. Anderson is saying exactly what I'm saying. And what we're saying, all of us, all of us Rebs, has been said before innumerable times.

[48:19]

And this is totally fresh and never seen before. And this is another version of the paradox of human existence. May we enjoy it. May we be able to tolerate it. Because it's kind of intense and could be a little hard on our nervous system. We open to the freshness and the unprecedentedness of, yeah, This is Nietzsche's refreshment. This is Nietzsche's liberation. Eternal recurrence. The same thing, the same new thing over and over.

[49:27]

The same fresh existence over and over. What is right? So fresh, supported by all of history, all of past action, and totally fresh, totally wild. And it welcomes the most stale things. But it's difficult to welcome the stale. But that's a fresh . Our intentions equally extend to

[54:45]

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