Okay, I think maybe that's everybody that I can see. About 57 people. As I thought about meeting with you tonight and talking about suffering, I felt joy. And I also thought, what a strange person that you joyfully consider the opportunity of talking to people about suffering.

[01:01]

But I do, at least I joyfully consider talking to you about it, because you seem to be somewhat receptive to me discussing suffering with you. And there's so much suffering, so much suffering. Now we have this resurgence of a deadly disease, And all the confusion and pain around that, so much suffering. But we also have some teachings to meet that suffering and engage with that suffering. And last time, I think we got to discuss the verse number 41, which is basically saying, you know, even in severe suffering for bodhisattvas, there is an unsurpassable, unequaled joy and happiness.

[02:17]

Even in the midst of suffering, there is an unequaled joy for bodhisattvas who live there. And so I... I wanted to again imagine with you, imagine a context for bodhisattva practice, for Buddha practice, which I've mentioned before, which is that Buddhas, and with them bodhisattvas, live and practice at the center of all suffering beings. Now, I would also say, and I have said it again before, all of us are living at the center of all suffering beings. This verse is saying that even at

[03:28]

at the center of all suffering, even at the center of severe suffering and agony and misery, bodhisattvas have a great joy. And their joy is the joy of this suffering which they experience in the middle of all other kinds of suffering which they're open to. And the suffering, the special suffering they experience at the center is a suffering born of compassion. So one way to image this is everybody's living at the center of all suffering beings. Everybody's living in the center of severe suffering and also not so severe suffering. Everybody's living at the center of all kinds of suffering. Everybody's sharing all kinds of suffering.

[04:30]

And the bodhisattvas have a special kind of suffering. In the middle of all the other kinds of suffering, they have a special suffering. It's a suffering that's born of compassion. And that suffering is an unequaled, unsurpassable joy. It's not their personal suffering. It's a suffering that comes because they care for other suffering beings. That's kind of, again, Karaka 41. And I'd like now to leap to Karaka 47. So 41 and 47 are kind of a set. And there's lots of interesting... verses between them, but these two are very similar in my view.

[05:33]

So 47 is about the fact that suffering born of compassion surpasses all mundane happiness. So one translation of the verse is, that suffering surpasses all happiness What could be more marvelous than this? That suffering surpasses all happiness. And that suffering is a happiness which surpasses all happiness. What could be more marvelous than this? It is that suffering born of compassion surpasses all mundane happiness. Even those who have accomplished their own aims are deprived of that suffering, which becomes joy.

[06:45]

And the other translation is, merciful suffering surpasses every mundane happiness and is missed even by those who have accomplished their own aim. What could be more supremely wondrous? So those who have accomplished their own aims or those who have accomplished their own aims, yes, both translations say that. These refer to the saints and the, what are called the solitary Buddhas who have accomplished their aim. Their aim is is to attain nirvana. They've accomplished this nirvana in which there is great peace and joy and freedom. That's what their aim was and they've accomplished it.

[07:51]

But they're deprived of this suffering. These great saints who have accomplished the goal of personal nirvana, Of course, they're compassionate beings, but they don't have this kind of suffering, and so they don't have this kind of joy, according to this verse. There is nothing more wondrous than this, that bodhisattva's suffering, born of compassion, becomes happiness and surpasses all mundane happiness. Even the saints who have accomplished their own aims lack that happiness. Not to mention others. So those are the, those two characters quite similar. And in between there's interesting things, but I just want to start by setting the stage

[08:53]

Yeah, it's kind of like setting the stage. The stage is set. Okay, here we are. We're sitting in the middle of all suffering. And in the middle of suffering, we have another suffering, a special suffering in the middle of all the other suffering, which is born of compassion. It's not the suffering that's born of delusion and selfishness and, yeah, inappropriate activity it's not that suffering it's a suffering born of compassion and that suffering is available to the bodhisattvas at the center of all suffering so yeah so um i think that the stage is set and i think uh i'm I think I'd like to open up a little bit and talk about these, what it feels like to be in the middle of these two verses and what it feels like to contemplate a suffering that's born because you love and cherish and care for and want to protect all living beings.

[10:13]

It's a suffering that rises because of that. And that is a great joy. So I'm going to welcome your feedback now, and then I think I'd like to stop and look at some of the verses in between these two verses. But for now, how about any responses to these two amazing, marvelous, and wondrous verses? We're being called on or just speak? You're up, Sonia. What has occurred to me in the past couple, three weeks when you speak about this joy in suffering, I am tethering that to the bodhisattva vow.

[11:28]

And that's the joy that actually we have, I'm going to say, something to do. And that's where the joy is. It's not joy at seeing other people suffering, but having a job, so to say, or having a way to engage. So I wonder what you think of that. Yes. Understanding. Well, there is the joy of the Bodhisattva vow in the midst of all suffering. But this karaka is a little more amazing because it doesn't just say joy of having the, it's not just the joy of practicing compassion in the midst of all suffering. It's also this talking about a suffering that's a joy. Because there can be compassion in response to suffering beings that's not pain. Pain. And that can be a joy also.

[12:31]

And again, there can be suffering. That's not pain. It can be compassion. And there can be a vow to benefit beings. The vow to benefit beings. The vow to benefit and liberate suffering beings. That vow could be joyful. But the vow, we usually don't speak of the vow as suffering. It's a happy thing. to have the Bodhisattva vow. I don't hear us talking about our suffering, the joy of being with others that are suffering, but maybe I missed something. Say again. I didn't think of it as our, my suffering, but the joy of being with others. So I might have missed something. No, there is a joy of being with others who are suffering. Okay? There is that. There's also a suffering that comes from loving and feeling compassion for beings.

[13:34]

So one is just you're with suffering beings and you feel joy to be with them and practice compassion and practice loving kindness. It's a joy. This is a special thing I'm saying. There is a suffering which comes from practicing compassion. And that is a joy. Is it like an empathy? It's like an empathy. but sometimes you could have empathy but not have compassion yes like you could understand how some that oh i see why you're suffering but not really feel compassion for the person so it's nice actually to have empathy with compassion and to have compassion with empathy but you can have you could also have compassion for someone but not understand their suffering So you could really care about them and they say, you do not. And you could tell them how you understand them. And they say, you do not understand me.

[14:36]

They don't think you have empathy. You don't get it. But you care that you don't get it. And you care for them. And you might even, I mean, it's possible that some of us would give our life for some person, but not understand what their problem is. Is that clear? That's perfect. That's great. Thank you. I got it. Thank you. Thank you for bringing that out. Thank you. Hello, Leslie? Yes. I'm somewhat new to all of this, so I may be asking a question that gets asked often enough. I was raised Catholic, and this idea of the martyr and suffering, I think I'm confusing it.

[15:43]

That kind of what I understand is suffering for others. Well, not suffering for others, but that suffering is with others. It's a little different. Suffering for others. And also, martyrdom often is associated with dying, right? In the Catholic Church? You don't get to be a martyr and live through it, do you? Well, I guess some people just sit on a pole for 20 years. Right. But do they get to be martyrs? I mean, they might be saints, but not all saints are martyrs, right? Right. Like St. Thomas Aquinas wasn't a martyr. St. Augustine was not a martyr, but he was a saint.

[16:44]

Right. And he didn't die. And then some ascetics were also saints who didn't die. But I think martyrs died. I'm not an expert, right? And they die not so much out of, you know, they die for the church, usually. They die for the church. And so I'm not saying we don't have that somewhere in Buddhism, but It's not so much dying for Buddhism or the Buddhist church. This is about because you love someone compassionately with no attachment, you feel a pain from that love. Not so much even from their pain, but from your love. And that pain is what we're talking, that pain is a joy. And also maybe the martyrs had joy too.

[17:44]

So I think one of the tests of a martyr may be, do they seem to be like really joyful as they're burning up? So if they're joyful and they're burning up, it's similar to this, but this is not joyful and burning up. This is joyful when the flames of pain come because you love, not the flames because somebody's burning you. This is a flame that comes from love, not the flame that comes from being whipped or boiled. It's a flame that comes from love. And yeah, it's not totally unrelated in the spectrum of human experience, but I think it's a little different. And I don't know if Christianity has this this suffering which comes from love, which is a supreme joy. I don't know if it's in Christianity.

[18:48]

And it's not in all of Buddhism. There are some Buddhist saints who do not have this kind of suffering. They have attained freedom from suffering, and they don't have the suffering that comes from caring for people. They do care for people, but this Tarka is saying they don't have that pain that comes from love. I understand now, I think. Yeah. You're welcome. Anything else on this amazing teaching of Karaka 41 and 47? I had something. Yes? So this is Pam. It makes sense to me, like I can sort of see and have a feeling that you could love someone or, you know, all beings so completely and thoroughly and see their suffering in the context of everything and understand it.

[19:58]

And that there would be this great love and joy in that suffering, in the love, in the desire to free that person. I don't know if that's what you're talking about or not, but that makes sense to me. Okay. So the thing that I'm puzzled by is that the Arhats who have reached nirvana, they're enlightened, right? So if they're enlightened, they would have a thorough understanding of emptiness, right? Well, there is some... I'm not sure if they really understand emptiness. If they did, they might not hang out in nirvana. Okay, because that's what I was wondering, because I was thinking if you thoroughly understood emptiness, that the compassion would naturally arise from that, and the joy and the desire to save all beings.

[21:09]

But I guess then you're no longer an arhat, you're a bodhisattva, right? Well, it's not that you're no longer an arhat, it's just that you're also a bodhisattva because Buddha was a bodhisattva and then finally he was an arhat, but he was a bodhisattva before he was arhat. So you could be a bodhisattva then an arhat and then you wouldn't hang out. So the arhats might not understand emptiness because if they did, then they probably would have the compassion that came from seeing all the causes and conditions and the emptiness of the suffering. Well, I think they do understand the causes and conditions, and so they're free. Yeah. But somehow their love is not such that they feel pain when they're free. And the bodhisattva does not go, and that's one of the karakas that we skipped, the bodhisattva does not rest in nirvana because that might interfere with them feeling the pain of the people they love.

[22:25]

Those who rest in nirvana are deprived of this pain. Yeah, that's interesting that you could be enlightened. And yet there's something else that we're talking about that... Buddhahood. Yeah. The Arhats are enlightened, and the Buddha had the same enlightenment as they did, but the Buddha has other enlightenments too, and sort of bodhisattvas. So there's different kinds of enlightenment. and the Buddha shares the enlightenment of the arhats and the project of Buddhas, but they don't share this pain. So because they don't share this pain, they don't share this happiness. They have another happiness, which is really great. And they're now motivated to help everybody.

[23:27]

Well, they're motivated to help everybody, But they haven't necessarily gone into the pain that bodhisattvas go into in order to help everybody. This is saying that they've accomplished their means. They're free. And they care about people before they accomplish their means. And after they accomplish their means, they still care about everybody. They just lack this pain. Do you think it's the pain? Bodhisattvas are careful not to hang out in nirvana too long because then they'll miss out on this pain. And they won't be able to... Even if an arhat wanted to help beings, he or she wouldn't be able to help them if they didn't have this kind of compassion. So this is great compassion. And this is the compassion which liberates beings. which the bodhisattvas and the Buddhas have.

[24:29]

You think that the pain is part of what is a motivating factor? So it's not a motivating factor. It may be a motivating factor to help other beings. Not really. This is not really a motivating factor. Okay. These creatures are motivated. But it helps them in their motivation. Their motivation is to help beings. This pain helps them. So they have no fear of pain. Because for them, being in this pain, which comes from love, is a joy. But the Arhats and the Pratyekabuddhas, the solitary Buddhas, are deprived of this. So they cannot go into hell as wholeheartedly as the Bodhisattvas can. So they might not be as effective. They're not as effective. They don't have great compassion, but they do have compassion. They're not crazy liberated beings who are liberated and don't care about people.

[25:31]

That's insanity. That's like a sociopath. They're not like that. They're liberated. They're at peace. They care about all living beings and they're devoted to all living beings, but they do not have this pain Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. All right. Next. Okay. Hello. Hello. How are you? I haven't seen you in so long. I'm suffering. Yes. And I'm enjoying it. And the word mercy, you can relate to that word. You can have mercy. Well, I can do it and also I can be it.

[26:35]

Yes. And so can you. Well, this is my question because the oldest Christian prayer is, and is related to mercy. And it is to have mercy on us, like the human cry for the mercy. And so when I have read about Christian mystics, they do suffer. And the suffering is, commands them or motivates them to serve, to help alleviate the suffering. And they are, I guess, I don't think about the word joy, but more like recharged by that service, by that offering.

[27:40]

And then the example, because recently my friend's mom passed away from COVID. And she is Catholic, and she asked for us to do a rosary for her mom. And I studied a lot about the rosary to prepare, because I am not Catholic. But I understood the heart of the mother of Christ, the suffering to be able to watch the death of her son. And I understood my, because I know my friend's mother, when I was a teenager, was extremely kind to me. So I thought, wow, her mother really, the image of the Virgin, she not only had the Virgin of Guadalupe in her home, but it was beautiful. she emanated that compassion for us teenagers or whoever came to the house to feed, to listen to them.

[28:51]

But this was more like empathy and compassion. But the mercy is, to me, is like a higher level. So the hierarchy between the compassion and empathy to the mercy is, I cannot imagine myself, I can imagine myself working towards a compassion, not only to understand and have compassion, but just to have compassion. But The mercy is a higher level. Yes. So that's why I don't... I understand that we wouldn't only... intention, aspiration to just enlighten because you have to coexist in the suffering.

[29:51]

You have to be of service. And could you be all the way to the service that it could bring you a joy? Yeah, that's a superhuman. Yeah. So I just, the mercy to me, it just takes it to the next level, a level that is like the arising we spoke about, arising the last week, that is something that is always there. And then we realize it's there and it uplifts us, it supports us, it gives us mercy. But it's not human to human. It's Something else. It's unsurpassable. It's Buddha. It's Christ. It's, yeah, the Virgin. It's something so amazing. Amazing grace. Yeah, that's all I had to say.

[31:01]

Thank you, Beth. Charlie. Um, hi. I was talking with a friend of mine this morning, and about suffering. Both have a similar suffering that we're we seem to be addressing in, in, in these two ways. Um, uh, is that we're both, uh, huddling our kitchens and, uh, she's very much wants to get hers over with and be done with it. And I, uh, I'm trying to, yeah, yeah. Her, her, her, the whole thing, the remodel, is a kind of suffering that she wants to be complete.

[32:08]

She wants to give it full attention and have it over with. She doesn't seem to have compassion for the thing. She's willing to bear it and get through it. But but I, I almost, uh, I'll be a little bit sad when my remodels done, I'm really enjoying, uh, the, the, uh, the challenges, uh, uh, and the suffering of remodeling my kitchen, uh, so much. Um, and, uh, and, and it's, it's, it's a pain, uh, that, uh, feels very, it feels completely alive and totally present and exactly where I want to be. Um, So that parallel, I was feeling that as you were talking about this. I mean, we're not really, it's a different scale than compassion for all beings, but those, you know, whatever beings we have in front of us, does that count? Is that a way of, is that a good parallel?

[33:10]

Yeah. To feel pain because you love one person That pain that you feel because you have compassion for one person, that pain is this joy that we're talking about here. And it could be the pain of remodeling. It could be the pain of your sick dog or your sick mother or sick father. it's not their pain it's the pain you feel because you care about your father or your dog or you care about the remodel you have compassion for the remodel and you feel pain about that because you have compassion for it and there's a joy in that and now you're anticipating you're not completely done with the remodel yet right But you're anticipating that you'll be sorry, you'll be sad when it's over.

[34:16]

Right? Yeah. And the pain in my left knee, which many of you know about, it has subsided most of the time. It's quiet. And I'm kind of sad for the suffering I had with it. because I cared for her. I've lost that particular nice opportunity to feel the pain of it out of compassion. I don't miss the pain of it, just the pain of it. I've missed the pain that comes because I'm being compassionate to it. I miss the pain that comes because I love my knee and care for my knee. That pain is the joy. And that pain liberates me and everybody from suffering.

[35:21]

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the example of remodeling. Remodeling is essential. As you may know, Charlie, many, many, many couples break up during remodels. I don't want to tie Ellen there, but... Hello. John. Welcome, John. Yes. It's great to see you. I missed a couple of classes because I've been busy. By the way, can I mention something, John? Yes. You're the great assembly. I forgot to mention this. Some people have missed classes and they sent a message to me that they're going to miss. And I appreciate that. So I would appreciate it if you're going to miss class, you just send a message to Gay and she'll forward it to me.

[36:37]

I've heard this before and I failed to learn this lesson. I'm confessing. And on the topic of kitchen remodels, many years ago we did and we avoided conflict because my wife just had a picture And whenever I would ask her a question, what she wanted, she would just say, look at the picture. I don't really have like a question, but what I'm struck by in the passage is the use of the word tenderness and tender love. And it may just be filling in for great compassion or it may not. It may be signaling something else, but it's a lovely word. And for me, it's evoking something that I can't get a handle on, but it certainly suggests it. So I wonder if you had any comments on that. I'm not quite clear, but I would just say that in these different translations, generally speaking, mercy, tenderness, and compassion are used synonymously.

[37:53]

And love, I think love is discussed in Karaka 43. And love in that case, I think is like loving kindness. And that's being distinguished from great compassion in that case. But generally, this great compassion is this compassion which is filled with joy because of the pain, the empathy, the actual, actually accurate empathy and experience of pain because of tenderness, of mercy and of compassion. And I think in my mind, tenderness kind of evokes

[38:55]

kind of vulnerability and also connection. And, you know, even say, like the doctor might squeeze something and say, is that tender? Yeah, yeah. Empathy and vulnerability are very close. Well, thank you very much. You're welcome. Okay, now I'd like to, Gail? Yes. Go ahead. Okay. I guess I have a question about budding bodhisattvas who feel inspired by this idea that we live at the center of all suffering beings and that we can invite the pain and experience it joyfully.

[39:57]

Because when you talk about it, I feel the aspiration. And then I kind of go to recent experience with my daughter where I was suffering deeply. I have to admit, sometimes I was suffering deeply because I wasn't getting what I wanted. But sometimes I was suffering deeply out of a clear desire for her happiness and compassion for her. And I, um, I think I, I often fought the suffering and rather than be fought, tried to fight it away. And I'm, I'm just thinking about what, what great compassion clearly includes, um, well, everything, but, um, everything, what am I trying to get at that?

[41:01]

Um, And the wisdom to see that one oneself is being liberated as well as others, but also to be compassionate to one's own suffering. Can you say a little more about that? Well, you said it earlier, great compassion includes everything. So it includes compassion towards your own experience, your inner experience. And it includes all beings. As we said earlier, it has the quality of being equal and constant. It applies to all beings. It even applies to beings who are happy. Because even happy beings are suffering. They may not see it, but the bodhisattva understands that they are. And feels compassion for happy beings, for cruel beings, for kind beings, for sad beings.

[42:06]

So it's universal and equal and applies to oneself. And it is actually liberating. Yeah. It seems, I don't know if I'm going in the wrong direction, but I keep getting the idea that it protects everything and everyone. It must protect, yes. It protects. And by protecting, it teaches other beings how to protect themselves and how to protect others. For example, it is patience. Patience protects beings from pain. It doesn't push it away, but it protects them. Generosity doesn't push pain away. It welcomes it. But also, welcoming pain protects us from it. If we can really welcome it, it doesn't hurt us.

[43:09]

If we fight it, it doesn't hurt us. Our fighting hurts us. The pain doesn't hurt us. Our impatience hurts us. The pain doesn't hurt us. Our not being careful hurts us. Great compassion is generous and careful and patient. And on the horizon, as you may have noticed, on the horizon is this big section starting in Karaka 48, I think, about compassion. The generosity of compassion and the compassion of generosity. So this next section is, I'm hoping that next week we can start this amazing teaching about the intimacy of generosity and compassion. Of compassion teaching generosity and generosity teaching compassion. Hmm. but also compassion teaches patience and patience teaches compassion.

[44:10]

Mercy teaches patience. By teaching patience to suffering beings, the teaching protects them. We don't protect them. The teaching of patience protects them. We're maybe playing the role of the teacher, but it's actually the teaching and the practice that saves them and protects them. It does not push the pain away. Because that's the wonderful thing about 41 and 47. It's not about pushing pain away. It's about realizing that this pain is the greatest happiness. So we don't want to push away the greatest happiness. Of course, we don't want to attach to it either. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. That's very helpful. You're welcome. Did you have a question, Warren?

[45:13]

No? Rand again? Hi. Can you turn your sound up a little bit? I have my sound up pretty high. Mine is as high as it will go. It's fine now. Good. It's good. It says there's a note on my thing. It says this host has spotlighted your video for everyone. Would you like to... Well, I'm unmuted, so I just... You're fine. Everything's fine now. I can see you. I can hear you. Okay. I can't smell you. My... My comp, my question, it's not really, it's kind of an observation from the teaching that I, and I want to make sure I'm on the right track, but I have found this teaching with suffering and joy to be a relief in a way, because, and I'll give an example.

[46:33]

You say release or relief? Yes. Well, both. Okay, fine, both. For example, I have a friend, a friend of 50 years, and that has always been depressed. And as the years have gone on, I want to be around her, not very much, because I can't help her. I felt like I just... I get so frustrated. I didn't. And I felt my suffering at not being able to help her. And I also felt her suffering. And I'm realizing that it's okay to have that suffering. And maybe it's just okay for her to be how she is. And that with that, if I can accept that, then I can accept the joy in it. that I'm still being there for her.

[47:35]

Is that... And I understand that's still... Being there for her. Being there with her. With her. For her. Yeah. And not trying to get her to be different from who she is. Yes. And you might feel some pain. And that feels like a relief to me now. And I'm happy. I have a feeling of happiness about that. So, thank you. Justin? Hi, Justin.

[48:40]

I tend to get stuck and confused when we talk about concepts like Buddhahood and our arts. That's okay. Thank you for your apology. I'm curious about the concepts. And And I don't know if spending too much time trying to contemplate differences, which I think I have very little understanding of, is conducive to my development of the compassion that we're talking about. Because I think I'm trying to... Yeah, I understand. And maybe when you notice that, maybe take a break. because maybe the discussion is getting too, uh, intellectual. And also, but anyway, that I didn't want to, I'm not trying to, I don't want to avoid what it says in the text too much, but there it says that those who accomplish their means.

[49:47]

So it does bring it up, but I don't want to, I think if we, we can, we, maybe we already spent too much time on it, but, uh, I don't need to spend more time on it. And it sounds like you don't either right now. That said, can I ask a question, a specific question about Ardhatship and Buddhahood? Well, but before you ask it, I'm going to ask you, do you think it's going to be helpful or is it going to confuse? Just to keep you more... I think it might be helpful. Why would it be helpful? Um... I guess I'm, maybe, maybe not. I mean, I start to wonder, are there two? I mean, is there one ultimate enlightenment? Is there one, I'm not so sure, but is the realization, and I think this was being asked earlier by Pam.

[50:52]

It's a very similar question to Pam's, I guess, yeah. There is one enlightenment. And is the arhat, is the enlightenment of an arhat inferior to that ultimate enlightenment? No, it's the same. It's the same. And your enlightenment is the same as the ultimate enlightenment too. But you're not an arhat, are you? I don't think I could answer that question. I don't think so. Based on what I've learned about arhats so far, I want to be bodhisattva. So I guess not. Yeah, and, you know, chances are you're not an arhat, and also you're probably not a Prajneka Buddha. And you might be a bodhisattva, but even if you aren't any of those things, the ultimate enlightenment is the same as yours. The ultimate enlightenment is the same enlightenment as yours and Maite's and John's and Gail's and Sarah's and Rannigan's and Reb's.

[51:56]

It's the same. That's the ultimate one. It's the same as the Arhat's. But the Arhat's is not the same as yours. And yours is not the same as a Pratyekabuddha. But the ultimate enlightenment is the same as yours, and it's the same as all the beings who have different enlightenments from yours. That's the ultimate enlightenment. It includes the Arhats, it includes the Justins, the Maites, the Johns, the Saras. It includes everybody, and it's the same enlightenment as everybody, and it's the same practice as everybody. That's the ultimate enlightenment of the Buddha. It's not superior to anything. It's the same as all beings.

[52:57]

It is all beings the way they're actually the same. And then some other enlightenments do not partake of this type of compassion. But we, everybody in this assembly has the opportunity to open to this kind of compassion, which is great compassion. which is great compassion towards all other levels of enlightenment. I want to say too, I don't particularly

[53:58]

you know, I'm particularly interested in categories and categorizing to the various levels of enlightenment. I just, I guess I want to know that, that I'm on the right path. That's why I think that's a question I'm asking myself. Am I on the right path? And I, and I don't mean with Zen in general, I thought I'd definitely on the right path, but as is my, is my intention in the right place, you know? So you're telling us that you want to know, you want to know that you're on the right path. Yeah. That person who wants to be sure that he's on the right path is somebody who we all want to practice compassion towards. Compassion is not about helping you be sure you're on the right path. That's not what compassion is about. Compassion is for you the way you are, wishing that you were somebody else, somebody who was sure he was on the right path.

[55:09]

That person who wishes to know for sure that he's on the right path is the person we practice compassion towards and with. That's what this teaching is about. It's not about trying to get you to get out of the suffering that you're in, which is the suffering of wanting to be sure that you're on the right path. That's your particular form of suffering which you're showing us. It's not about getting rid of that and substituting wanting to be sure with being sure. Did you understand that? I do, yeah. Okay. It's not about getting you to be sure that you're on the right path. It's about practicing with the person who wants to be sure. And sometimes I drop into a place where I feel like, oh. And I feel, and I do understand that.

[56:20]

And I feel peaceful and ask myself, why are we doing all this talking now? What is all this talking about? It's very straightforward, it feels like sometimes. Yeah, that person who's saying, why are we doing all the talking? That's another person that we're going to practice compassion with. The one who says, why are we doing all the talking? And in this class, sometimes people say, why are we doing all this talking? And that person who's talking like that, we practice. And I'm not trying to, I really enjoy these classes. I'm not talking about the class itself. I'm talking more in a general sense. The person who's enjoying the classes, that person, have you seen him around? Yeah. That person... is the person who is calling for compassion. And that person is a person we're listening to and welcoming and practicing compassion towards the one who's enjoying the classes. And this class is about being compassionate to this person who's enjoying the classes.

[57:26]

Would you like to join that compassion? Yeah, you're welcome to do so. Thank you. You're welcome. Okay, so we have a little bit of time left, and I'm not discouraging you about... discussing this issue of Karaka 41 and 47. But if there's anything in Karaka 42, 43, 44, 45, or 46 that you'd like to bring up, please do so. I'm here to, we're here to talk to you about those intermediate, those five verses. all of which are very interesting, but I feel like I didn't want to go through them one by one. But if you look at them and you have some question you'd like to bring up for discussion, you're welcome to do so.

[58:37]

And if you want to keep talking, talk more about this amazing book, happiness of suffering that's born of compassion. You can do that more too if you want, of course. Gayatri. Hello, Rav. Good evening. Good evening. Good evening, everyone. um is my uh comment and question is related to 41 and 47 i it's not the ones in between that's fine but uh okay so um so i had a recent experience behind you oh there he is he's my best buddy he hangs out with me all day long when i'm sitting here um but um Yeah, so there was this recent experience, more sort of directed internally towards myself, that may be what we're talking about here.

[59:51]

So this past weekend, my son, we went to drop my son off to college. He is doing some summer classes at UC Santa Barbara. So we drove to Santa Barbara. And this is his first time going to campus, even though he's a sophomore because of the pandemic. He had never been on campus. And so I had these waves of grief, just, you know, tears coming up at random times. You know, I would think of some thought would enter my mind and, you know, my throat would choke up and my tears would come. And so it started a couple of days before we left and then on the drive there and then, you know, when we were unpacking. And so this whole time, and I think there was a part of me throughout that time that which didn't allow that feeling to come out fully because I was concerned about how my daughter would feel and how my son would feel. And I didn't allow myself to really feel it. But there was a point at which I allowed myself fully to feel the entire range of experience in the body, in my mind.

[60:58]

And in that, I was able to touch into that joy, in that suffering, Because I think I connected with my love for my son. It was not just the grief and the sadness and the suffering of that, but I was compassionate with the grief, which allowed me to touch the love for my son. And in that, there was the joy of So I think it's the same principle but applied to others. I would think that. Is that right, Rebbe? Am I on the right track? Basically, you're entering into this, yes. Okay. You're entering. So another way to tell the story is that the grieving. Mm-hmm. which comes because you love him, will protect you, is protecting you, is trying to protect you.

[62:07]

From what? From some attachment to him. So part of your love is attached to him, and then this other attachment Compassion. But because part of you is attached to him, but also because you love him, you feel pain. And that pain can come in the form of grief. And the pain that comes in the form of grief because you love him is a joy. That pain, that joy, protects you and liberates you from your attachment to this wonderful person. Got it. We're in the middle of this very thing. Yeah, and I think that love, and I think it's the recognition of that same love or that feeling of that, when it becomes universal, I mean, where it's not just unique to my son or my child, but just the love.

[63:19]

And then that becomes sort of like the great compassion, because then there is not a sort of a singular attachment. So again, earlier Caracas said that this great compassion is constant and equal when you feel grief in relationship to everybody. But still, the working of this example is great compassion working on this particular example. It's still great compassion working in this case. It's just that... Great compassion would be grieving for all the students who are going to college. Yes, got it. Got it. I love when you laugh, Greb. It just gives me so much joy to listen to you laugh because I never get around to saying something. It's just very, I love to hear you laugh. The whole thing is really funny. This topic is really funny.

[64:24]

Thank you. You're welcome. Good evening. Good evening. So I've been thinking that both the sorrow and the joy that we're talking about, in part, they're related to, as we work on this, they start to, the prison of living in a separate self starts to break down, and that is both painful and joyful. And there's, you know, that illusion that there's a self and there's an other. As they start to soften, it seems to me that there's terror and there's also incredible joy related to those. Carica 46 is about the terror. And about the prison of... I think, yeah, Karke 46 brings up the terror that's involved in this process.

[65:38]

And for me, that seems to have to do with, you know, that I deeply see the world as, in terms of self and other, and when that comes into question, it is both joyful and frightening. Or maybe even before it's joyful, it's frightening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it also says that if you keep working on it, you'll become comfortable with the terror. But as we begin to feel the pain of others, I think that helps us to see that we're not really as separate as we think we are. Helping us feel the pain of others helps us. But this is not talking about feeling the pain of others, this is talking about you feeling pain because you love others.

[66:40]

It's a different variety. So, You can feel the pain of others. You can empathize with the pain of others. That's all part of the game. This is a special thing. It's not about feeling their pain. It's you feeling pain because you love them. Well, and what I'm, I guess what I'm trying to say is me feeling... Others don't have that pain. Most others do not have that pain. But there's really no other. And so I can't be feeling any pain other than my own. You know, it's... It's not that there's no other, except in the sense that there's no self or other. Yeah. But still, you do have certain pains that I don't have. Right. And vice versa, yeah. And vice versa. And each of us could feel pain because we love each other. And the pain you feel because you love me is not the pain that I feel because I love you.

[67:46]

However, feeling that pain because you love someone liberates both of us from believing that self and other, which are different, are separate. I guess I'm thinking of the pain and the joy as kind of a symptom of that process or something. You could say a symptom, except that this suffering is not so much like a symptom, it's more like a medicine. But you can also say medicine is part of the process. But this medicine, this is not a symptom. Or you could say this is a symptom of enlightenment. This is not a symptom of illness. It's a symptom of health. It's healthy to feel pain when you love others. Loving others is helpful. And if you love them in a way that you feel pain, that's healthy.

[68:50]

It's a healthy pain. It's such a healthy pain. It's an unsurpassable joy. Thank you. That's what I'm trying to say. Thank you very much. You're welcome. So we inadvertently touched upon Karaka 46, which is the non-existence of suffering, whatever suffering, in the non-existence of suffering, whatever suffering that comes to a bodhisattva is due of compassion, terrifies them at first, but when they deeply penetrate its causes, then it's a delight. this, um, whole thing. Compassionate forest. Um, it just feels to me like, um, a wide window because I think as a woman, I have to say that Buddhism feels sometimes like it doesn't include the kind of bonding that like a mother and a child feel, even though it says, even as a mother protects with her life or child or only child, there's just a lot of attachment.

[70:12]

And so for me, this is the first opportunity that it feels like, Oh, There's a bridge between attachment and non-attachment that's not a severing, but it's an invitation to love pain. It just feels a different whole tone, like a whole possibility. Yeah. That this practice is a bridge from one to the other. Yeah. It's so beautiful. Thank you. You're welcome. when I was a kid I watched a TV show called I think it was called Life is Worth Living it was a TV show and it was the person who was sort of the figure of the TV show was his name was Bishop Fulton J. Sheen did any of you ever watch that yeah

[71:20]

Anyway, his motto was, I come to thee through the mother. Any other things you'd like to bring up now? Warren. Warren. Warren. Hello, Rev. Hello. Yes, he's often on during the week. You can see him early, late at night. Interesting fellow. But that wasn't my question. My question is about this sameness of self and others. equality and um as it relates to to the compassion to great compassion and when i'm trying to find that you're trying to find it

[72:33]

I'm trying to, uh, see it, see it, uh, in relationship with another person, for instance, uh, down my road here, a man flies a flag upside down and his, uh, signs in his yard that say things that are, you know, not very kind and so forth. And so when I go by this man, I, uh, You know, I have a bad feeling. I have a bad feeling. Pain? Yeah, it is pain. It is pain. But then a couple days ago, I saw him. He was out tending his garden, which is neat, like a tent. Like, you know, everything is perfect at his house. And I had this, I wanted to stop, you know, and get out of my truck and go there and say, you know, I'll share that with you.

[73:40]

I mean, I love doing what you're doing here. You do it so well. I didn't because I was, you know, I don't know, I guess terrified to do something like that. I don't really know the guy other than just, you know, that type thing. But, you know, there's a lot of that here around me on this road. And sometimes it frightens me, and sometimes I engage with people in a friendly way. But the equality, I mean, isn't it just trying to find something like gardening or keeping this? Well, this is a beginning, isn't it, of finding a sameness and then build on that? Is that the idea? Finding a same practice. That's an attempt to find the same practice and the same enlightenment. Uh-huh. So in a way, you both share that same practice and same enlightenment there, or at least same appreciation and effort to have a beautiful yard.

[74:45]

And sharing that kind of mundane thing and interacting with him around that and respecting him around that could lead you to be patient with him around that. So... You can use that appreciation of him and respect for his work as a basis for a relationship. And then you could gradually add in patience with his signs and generosity towards his signs. And practicing compassion this way has the potential of realizing that you actually have the same practice and same enlightenment as him and all beings. But you can use this challenging relationship you have. I kind of envy you. Where do you live? Upstate New York. Yeah. I kind of envy you that you have a neighbor like that. I don't have any neighbors like that.

[75:47]

Oh, I'll bet you don't. I wish I did have a neighbor that I could go up to and appreciate. A neighbor who I have problems with, who I feel pain with, but with whom I could find some area to meet. practice together and realize that we have the same practice and the same enlightenment even though I don't have signs like that on my lawn and a green goat put up some signs you know earlier last year green goats put up some signs last year and people drove by and tore the signs down I'm sorry. I didn't have a chance to talk to those people. See, because it's hard to find a place of, what do you call it, a place of meeting place where you could talk to him in the meeting place and then expand into how come you tore the sign down.

[76:51]

But you have a great opening here that you actually appreciate something about him. well I would really encourage you to stop your truck and walk up to him and say could I talk to you and if he says yes say I just want to say I really appreciate the way you take care of your yard and yeah and that's enough and then you could come and the next time you could say how's your yard you know And gradually you can start to open up to these other aspects of him and practice compassion with these other aspects of him which currently maybe are too advanced or too far out of reach. And I'm not saying I could practice with those either. But if you have this great opportunity of saying, hey, here I can respect him. Here I can appreciate him.

[77:53]

Here I can welcome him. And so let's... Take this place and then gradually expand it. Thank you so much. That's beautiful. You're welcome. And please give me a report if you do it. I will. Well, one more thing. I wouldn't get into the problem areas right away. Just start with the appreciation and the respect. Just step number one. I appreciate you. Maybe take another step. It's a joy for me to see your work. And I imagine it's a joy for you too. I guess it's a joy for you too. And he might say, it is. You're right. And from there, you may someday be able to say, could I have your signs, please? That's right. So not all of us are as lucky as you, Warren, to have such great opportunities.

[79:01]

But I'm happy you do. Nancy? I'm pretty lucky, too. I have a lot of great opportunities, too. Great. I live around a lot of people. who suffer greatly, like people who have had depression their whole entire life. And I really was struck by 46 myself because when they tell me about their depression or their suffering, like one woman, she had a knee replacement and they gave her some kind of medication. And all she did was cry and [...] cry. And she would tell me about it. And I couldn't relate to it. You know, it was like I've never had such deep suffering in my life. And I don't know if I would use the word that I was terrified, but I just didn't know how to respond to her.

[80:06]

You know, I tried to be with her, tried to, but since I've never had experiences like that, I feel some I know I've had suffering in my life, but I've never lost. My mother lived to be 99. You know, I didn't lose a parent when I was six or something or I didn't have a parent who was violent or. And so when people share their stories. I am starting to be able to listen. I do have to say that. at first I could hardly stand it, but I've been around it now for about six years. So I am more able to, I wouldn't say that it causes delight, extreme delight, but I feel like I could really relate to number 46, that something that I can learn something

[81:12]

there yeah and you uh you you didn't quite resonate with the word terror but it sounds like you are sort of at a loss of how to be helpful how to respond and uh for some people that's kind of terrifying that that they don't know how to help yeah some people are terrified by helplessness mm-hmm But still, what it says here basically is by basically penetrating, deeply penetrating or deeply experiencing this terror or this feeling of helplessness in a relationship, this process will become a delight. It will become delightful to struggle with this sense of terror or helplessness or not awkwardness or not knowing how to help a person.

[82:14]

That can be very, very painful. But working with it, one realizes, oh my God, this is the best job. It's really hard, but it's the best. Anyway, once again, thank you so much, Great Assembly. May our intention equally extend to every being and place with the true merit of Buddha's way. Beings are numberless. I vow to liberate them. Afflictions are inexhaustible. I vow to cut through. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. We vow to become it. Thank you so much. Good night. Good night. Thank you.

[83:14]

@Transcribed_v005
@Text_v005
@Score_88.26