Fourth sitting in which we've been concentrating on the first four chapters of the Samdhi Nirmacana Sutra which deal with ultimate truth. This is the fourth and final chapter focusing on ultimate truth. on the character of ultimate truth. The rest of the sutra then is about how to study the ultimate truth, the character of which has been discussed in the first four chapters. So here we are, beings, and we're given an opportunity now to open to the teachings about the character of the ultimate.

[01:16]

And now the Bhagavan, the Buddha, spoke to the venerable Subhuti. and said, Subhuti, in the realm of sentient beings, how many sentient beings do you think there are who communicate their understanding under the influence of conceit? In the realm of sentient beings, how many sentient beings do you think there are who ...without conceit. The word conceit here could also be translated as... The original word which is translated as conceit could be translated as pride.

[02:27]

This type of conceit is conceit about objects, conceit of apprehending subjects, and conceit of thoroughly differentiating character. Pride in apprehending objects, pride in apprehending objects, and pride in thoroughly differentiating character. In one of the traditional presentations of the path to sagehood in the Buddhist tradition, there's five paths. And one of the paths is the path of vision where one sees the illusory nature of the belief in a substantial self.

[03:49]

And then the next path, various latent tendencies which exist even in one who in the substantiality of the self or the substantiality of the person, person who does not believe that anymore and therefore has entered into the path of sagehood, they still have lots of latent tendencies that were developed during the time when they did believe in the substantial existence of a person. And then this long path of purification where the person has this insight and applies this insight to their conduct over and over. And then these latent tendencies are eliminated.

[04:52]

And the last latent tendency on this path of purification, which is called arhatship, this last latent tendency is pride or conceit. People who are... it's very tempting for them to be conceited or prideful because they've gone a long way. They're amazingly evolved beings. And when you're amazingly involved, you might be kind of conceited. Ordinary human beings are actually amazingly evolved creatures. I recently heard that the second most written about animal on the planet is bees.

[06:08]

I guess the most written about animal on the planet is humans. And the second most written animal on the planet, I guess, is ants. But I don't know. But I thought about ants and bees are interesting because, for many reasons, but one of the reasons they're interesting to me is that they don't have much self of the person. Regarding their personhood, they're kind of selfless. And then we had to write more books about these highly evolved beings who really haven't got over that belief, the human. The ants and the bees are giving us some teachings. We tend to be proud and conceited.

[07:16]

for upstaging you. Subuddhi replied, Bhagavan, I think in the realm of sentient beings, those who are, those who communicate their understanding without receipt, without conceit are few. That's how many, that's how many that communicate their understanding without conceit. I know just a few. Bhagavan, I think that in the realm of sentient beings, sentient beings who communicate their understanding under the influence of conceit are immeasurable, countless, and innumerable. So I was struck by this expression. Is it called DUI? Driving under influence.

[08:22]

Is that it? Driving under influence is called DUI, right? It's not called DUIT. Just driving under the influence of intoxicants, though, is the point, right? So we have here communicating under a seat. CUIC or CUI. Communicating our understanding under the influence of conceit. This is a lot of... innumerable beings communicate their understanding under the influence of conceit. Understanding, in this case, of the traditional teachings of the Buddhas. And people also do it about other things like what kind of day it is, how we're behaving, or how lunch tastes.

[09:24]

So we're talking about the ultimate truth. Supposedly this chapter is about the ultimate, the fourth chapter of the ultimate truth. It starts by talking about conceit. That many sentient beings are They communicate their understanding under the influence of conceit. And then Subuddhi says, One time I lived in a great forest hermitage, a great forest monastery. Dwelling with me in this great forest hermitage were innumerable monks. At that time, They communicated their understanding by describing what they had manifestly realized through observing various phenomena. Kind of a big fat sentence, but there it is.

[10:36]

He lived with these monks, and what did they do? They communicated their understanding. by describing how they manifestly realized through observing the various forms of phenomena. So he lived with these monks and they observed various phenomena. And then they communicated their understanding by describing what they realized when they observed phenomena. I might rephrase this by saying at that time those monks communicated their understanding under the influence of conceit by describing what they had manifestly realized through observing various forms of phenomena. And now describe the many different types of phenomena that these monks observed

[11:47]

upon which they had some understanding, which they communicated. And each is our basic categories of basically Buddha's teaching about how to guide ourselves, our meditation, in the contemplation of phenomena. So the first one is One communicated his understanding based on observing aggregates. So the monk was doing a basic Buddhist meditation of observing the five aggregates. Observing body, feelings, conceptions, various kinds of mental forms, and consciousness. Buddha taught monks to contemplate these things. These monks were contemplating these things. And in the contemplation they had some understanding which they communicated.

[12:55]

And then he goes into details about contemplating these five aggregates, these five categories of experience of psychophysical being. So they observe the signs of the aggregates, They observe the arising of the aggregates. They observe the disintegration of aggregates. They observe the aggregates. And they observe the actualization of the cessation of aggregates. And it goes on to discuss how another one did it based on another meditation topic like the sense fields. And another one did it based on the meditation of dependent co-arising, the Buddhist teaching of dependent co-arising. and on and on, finally coming to meditating on the Eightfold Path. So here are these monks basically contemplating what the Buddha offered them, very effectively contemplating them.

[14:05]

And of course, since they're able to contemplate, they're quite developed beings. And not only did they contemplate him, but some understanding came. And then they communicated their understanding of all these different wonderful modes of analytic wisdom. And after Subuddhi lists all these different areas where these monks express, communicated their understanding based on observing these various types of phenomena. Subuddhi says, having seen them, I thought, what a wonderful world. No, he didn't. He said, after seeing them, I thought, these venerable persons communicating their understanding by describing their manifest realization

[15:08]

of the various forms of phenomena. And in this way they do not seek the ultimate, whose character is of one taste. So I have seen them, I've seen these people I thought venerable people communicate their understanding by describing their manifest realization of various forms. And in this way, the way that they communicate their understanding, they do not seek the ultimate, whose character is all one taste. Therefore, these venerable persons have conceit.

[16:10]

They can only communicate their understanding under the influence of conceit. Seeing these monks, I thought to myself, these venerable elders expounding various teachings based on contemplations they have realized their own understanding. Obviously these venerable ones are all conceited because they are possessed by conceit. They are unable to understand the unity, the one taste of the ultimate which pervades all. So it's something about the ultimate that we're being told.

[17:19]

The main ultimate has the character that it's everywhere of one taste. Now we're being told about the character of the ultimate. But before we're told about the character of the ultimate, we're told that if we are possessed by conceit, we will not open to it. we will not be able to understand the ultimate. In other words, yeah, in other words, what's conceit? And how can we be with that as to let it go so that we can open to the ultimate whose character is everywhere of one taste? And how is it that the one taste of everything, which is the ultimate, is blocked by conceit. What is it about conceit and pride that go against receiving the one taste of everything?

[18:31]

So maybe this warning about conceit among these highly evolved beings is something for us to receive to heart as we then enter into the rest of the sutra to keep remembering that that's a key to watch out for when we're studying Dharma. So, maybe a little bit more before I open for your response. And I just say that as I read this, I'm surprised by... I'm surprised by the language. It doesn't flow necessarily the way I think it would, which leads me, which helps me, actually. Actually, maybe shows me my conceit. So after the... He says that what he saw is these beings possessed by conceit and therefore they are only able to communicate their understanding.

[19:51]

When I'm possessed by conceit then I'm only able to present my understanding under the influence of conceit. I'm interested in my understanding rather than the ultimate because I have a nice understanding. So I have my nice understanding which I communicate, but that makes it hard for me to really want to open to the ultimate or really be able to understand the ultimate. And yet, here I go reading another paragraph. Bhagavan, regarding what the Bhagavan has formally said, Here's what the Bhagavan said. The ultimate is profound and subtle and very difficult to realize.

[20:53]

Supremely difficult to realize. And is the character that it is all of one taste. What the Bhagavan has said so eloquently in this way is wondrous. This is profound and subtle and difficult to understand, supremely difficult to realize. and has the character that it is all of one taste. And Subuddhi thinks this is really wondrous. And then Subuddhi says, Bhagavan, regarding those who have entered into this very interesting, very teaching, regarding those who have entered into this very teaching by the Cittagata, that the ultimate of the character that is everywhere one taste,

[22:04]

colon, since those sentient beings who are monks have difficulty understanding this way, what need is there to mention heretics who are outside? There's a question mark at the end of that, but I think this is rhetorical. In other words, if your students have trouble understanding your teaching, how about people who aren't even your students? And the Bhagavan says, so it is, the Buddha, so it is. I have perfectly and completely realized the ultimate character. I have completely realized the ultimate, having a character that is all one taste. Here's the Buddha's understanding of the ultimate. Does that mean the Buddha has no conceit?

[23:06]

The ultimate having the character of one taste, which is subtle, supremely subtle, profound, supremely profound, difficult to realize, supremely difficult to realize. Having perfectly manifested this ultimate, I have proclaimed it and made it clear, opened it up. systematized it and taught it comprehensively. And the Buddha says, why is it so? So, why is it so? I think, why is it so? Why did I go to all this trouble? Why did I Why did I proclaim it and make it clear and open it up and systematize and teach this thing?

[24:15]

Why did I make all that effort about the ultimate? Why is it so, Subhuti? No. Why is it so? Subhuti, I teach that the object of observation for the purification of the aggregates is the ultimate. Well, of proclaiming the ultimate, opening it up, and so on. He doesn't say in the text, but I would say, he could say, because, the reason why I made this effort is because the object of purification, the object of observation for the purification of the ultimate. I made this effort to teach the ultimate because this ultimate is is the object which, when contemplated, purifies the aggregates. It doesn't just purify you, the person.

[25:17]

Although it does purify you, the person, it also purifies what you're made out of. It purifies your eyes and your ears and your nose. It purifies the colors and smells and tastes. It purifies your feelings. It purifies your perceptions and it purifies your greed, hate, and delusion. It purifies your faith. It purifies your consciousness. It purifies all that makes you. And it purifies you and me from mistaking all that makes us as something substantial, and purifying all that makes us from being something substantial. That's why the Buddha makes this big effort to teach the ultimate, because the ultimate is what purifies all phenomena. It starts with the aggregates, but then it goes on to purify the sense fields, to purify dependent co-arising, to purify the Eightfold Path, to purify all the different elements of the Buddha's analytic wisdom, to purify the wisdom of all phenomena, to purify the wisdom of all phenomena.

[26:37]

That's why he teaches this. When he says, But another way to say it is, how is this so? Rather than why, why do you do this, how do you, how is this so? How do I proclaim this? How is it so that I proclaim it? Why do I proclaim it? Because it's so important in purification. How do I proclaim it? How do I How do I teach it comprehensively? I teach it comprehensively by saying the object of observation for purification of the aggregates is the ultimate. And then he goes on, and also I teach that the ultimate is the object of observation for the purification of the sense spheres, dependent co-arising, the substances, the truths,

[27:39]

the mindful establishments, the correct abandonings, the basis of magical ability, the powers, the forces, the branches of enlightenment, and Subuddhi, the eight branches of the path of the Aryans. That which is the object of observation for the purification of the Agni is all of one taste. Its character does not differ And it's the same object of observation for the purification of all phenomena. So I'm just pointing out that one way to read it, the Buddha says this and the Buddha rhetorically says, why do I do it? Another way to say it is the Buddha says I teach this and asks, how do I do it? How do I do it and why do I do it? Same answer. The reason I do it is because the ultimate purifies all phenomena when it's observed.

[28:44]

And the other reason is how I do it is by saying that the ultimate, when contemplated, purifies all phenomena. So we begin here with that. And this teaching, so this teaching is partly to say that because of conceit we don't really want to open to the ultimate. We're more interested in what we understand. What we understand is pretty hot stuff, works pretty well. Everybody feels that way, but some people study for a long time and then what they understand is like, this is much better even than what I understood when I was, you know, a new monk. This is really good stuff. This is what I understand. And I won't say I don't want to open to the ultimate. Actually, I do understand the ultimate already. So I don't have to open to the ultimate.

[29:46]

And this is my understanding of the ultimate. So right here now we have the beginning of the antidote is this teaching of the one taste that is everywhere. So maybe that's enough for starters. Maybe it's enough for finishers, too. Yes, Timo? You could say instead of one seed identification with a view, Identification with a view? Yeah. You have a view of... You think it's... And you identify with it. It could mean that actually this works for me.

[30:49]

I sign up for this view. I believe this. And, you know, some pride about it. So identification with a view is similar to having pride. One of the... One kind of conceit is conceit in apprehending objects. See, apprehend the view, that's kind of an attachment. But also, even conceit in thoroughly differentiating the character of things. That's another view. And kind of like, I have an understanding, and that's who I am. So yeah, these are identifications, attachments to views. That's another way to say conceit. Whatever, just trying to get out. Pride means usually you put yourself above others, is that true? Or proud of? You wouldn't have to put yourself above others who agreed with you. But anyway, you're proud of your view.

[31:50]

You have pride in your view. You're giving your view too much. you're being excessive about your belief, so that you're not open to the ultimate, which is everywhere of one taste. So there's something about, this is what I think is going on, and if you disagree with me, then I maybe have trouble seeing that the ultimate has the same taste in what you think, which disagrees with me, as it does in what I think, which does agree with me. So opening to that which is the character of everything everywhere is difficult. So the Buddha is trying to help us do this difficult thing, helping us develop an antidote to that which makes it so difficult, namely our pride in understanding. Or walking around.

[32:51]

Some people are like, kind of like, what do they call it, hiding under a bushel. Is that the expression? Hiding your light under a bushel? Is that right? Is that the expression? Hide your light under a bushel? No, it was hide the fact that you've got the light, that you know it's true. But everybody actually is walking around, I shouldn't say not everybody, countless beings are walking around with pride of understanding. A few are not actually proud of their understanding. And the Buddhas, one of them, was not proud of her understanding. And therefore, comprehensively, thoroughly understands the ultimate and teaches it. That our leader, our founder, would be not proud, would have gotten over pride and conceit about his understanding, which is unsurpassable. And those of us who have understanding which are surpassable,

[33:56]

are conceited about him. Isn't it amazing? Yes? I'm just wondering, and you've gone partway there, but I'm not clear exactly what conceit means in this context. Is it synonymous with pride? Yeah, synonymous with pride. So, in the examples, he didn't say, I went to the city and I went into a bar and there were a bunch of conceited people there. But, you know, if he'd gone there, he would have found them there too, probably. He's saying even in a monastery where people are sincerely studying all these various subtle topics of Buddhist teaching and Buddhist wisdom instruction, even there, all these people were speaking with some conceit. And I'm proposing that the Buddha has an understanding of various phenomena,

[35:03]

and the Buddha also has an understanding of the ultimate character of various phenomena, and that the Buddha is the one who is not prideful. But Buddha is not the only one. Some other sentient beings, a few other sentient beings, also have an understanding, but they're not proud of it. And those who are not proud of their understanding, those people are ready to open to and seek the ultimate. The unproud ones, And you may say, well, some unproud people... I saw an unproud person the other day, and that person really should be unproud. He's stupid. And they agree with me. In that regard, they're not so stupid. But there's some unproud people walking around who are not Buddhas, but who are ready to receive Buddhist teachings. There's just a few unproud ones, and there's innumerable proud ones according to this sutra.

[36:07]

So it's possible that I am one of them, that I'm one of the proud ones. And the sutra is saying to me, well, you should work with that because it will make it hard for you to understand the ultimate. So work on your pride. Become aware of it. Learn what the pride is. Learn what your conceit is. Get in touch with it. Because if you can drop it, then you can open to the ultimate. Then you can open to the one taste which will then purify all phenomena of self-clinging. And it isn't just that you're going to get purified. You're going to purify everything. So the Bodhisattva wants to learn to purify all phenomena, free all beings, is necessary for this. And in order to receive it, we have to find the antidotes for our pride.

[37:13]

Did you have one more comment? Just to follow up, at least one danger of pride is that it's a way of setting aside self and other. Yeah, well, one way of pride is to apprehend objects. Another is to apprehend subjects. This apprehending way of relating to things separates self and other. That's a kind of pride. I understand this. You don't. Yeah. Or even, I'm separate from you, and that's correct. Or I'm not separate from you, and that's correct. All these kinds of distinctions, when we have pride in them, interfere with our realization of the one taste of all. Is doubt of your understanding a kind of pride too? You could have doubt about your understanding and be prideful about your doubt. In other words, this is doubt.

[38:19]

I know what doubt is. There are people like this who are sure about their doubt. And they won't move on that one. I should say they won't move. I would mean they don't move yet. But the Buddhas will teach them how to let go of their pride and their doubt. Like, I doubt that you're right. I doubt that you're good. I doubt that Buddha's good. I doubt that Buddhism's good. And they're proud of that. I doubt that Islam's good. I doubt that Judaism's good. But they're kind of arrogant about their doubt of their understanding. Can you imagine that we have that ability? We do. We're highly evolved. Yes? So... I was going to say, how do you fight the middle way without being too sure and being too unsure?

[39:28]

Yeah, that's it. That's very good. The middle way is free of being too sure and too unsure. That's what the middle way is. It's free of those two. A new rendition of it exists and it does not exist. So we're emphasizing that not being centered in the middle way has to do now with being prideful about our understanding. Yes, Karen? The previous chapters of conversations with these bodhisattvas with these kind of elaborate names, this one is with Subhuti. Why Subhuti within this conversation? In this sutra, Subhuti is a bodhisattva's Subhuti. Subhuti is also one of the main one of the main monks in the Prajnaparamita literature.

[40:33]

So, in the Prajnaparamita literature, Shariputra is being addressed because Shariputra doesn't know about the teaching of emptiness. Subuddhi is actually the monk who actually has the understanding of a bodhisattva. Interesting question. So, Shariputra, in a number of perfect wisdom texts, is who the Buddha is talking to, because Shariputra represents the wisdom of the early teaching. And so, Shariputra, a new wisdom. But Subuddhi actually doesn't represent the... He wasn't well-known... as the teacher of wisdom, as Shariputra was historically. He was known as foremost those who relaxed after lunch.

[41:44]

So in India, after lunch, you know, because Buddhist monks didn't eat much after lunch, maybe they could, there's some debate about what they could Anyway, they didn't eat solid food after lunch was the policy. But they often would eat a pretty big lunch, if they were lucky. And then, with the heat, after lunch was kind of like sleepy time. And Subuddhi was kind of, you could say, best at handling the sleepy time. Maybe Subuddhi was like the most unprideful of the disciples of the Buddha. And because he was so unprideful, he could stay awake during the sleepy time. Because he's always kind of... Well, Shariputra, you know, the great wisdom disciple, might have been... in danger of being prideful, because he was very wise.

[42:56]

The Buddha had him teaching these people that are in this thing. But Subuddhi's the one who's like watching all these excellent monks. You know, he's kind of like watching them and saying, hmm, these guys, oh, these guys are full of pride. And maybe I am too. I love your teaching, Buddha. It's so wonderful, this teaching. But I think these other great disciples of yours are not getting it because they're so proud. So maybe that's why he's the one who is the Prajnaparamita monk. Because he's not such a hotshot, doesn't have these great abilities. He's sort of able to, maybe you could say, he's a bullshit spotter. Joe? I recently saw a news clipping from 1996, and it had a photograph of an African American woman putting her body between a white Klansman and... Between a white Klansman?

[44:12]

Mm-hmm. and a group of people who were protesting the Klan having their rally somewhere. I don't remember. It doesn't really matter. And when I looked at the picture, someone said, look at this. And I sort of assumed in my head what was happening, that she was protecting somebody from the Klan, when actually she was protecting this Klan's president from her people. And the reason I feel that now is I feel like that's a moment without conceit. It might have been. Maybe not, but it reminds me, and I keep it, it reminds me to always aim for the ultimate truth. It's so easy to be so afraid of other human beings and get stuck there. it's really a dangerous place to be stuck.

[45:15]

And so regardless of what was going on with her, she was so moved by that image of willingness to see human life and to protect human life regardless of who it was. You can say that, but you've also the ability to see the one taste in all human life. and to see in all phenomena. This is the great purifying vision. So maybe she could see the one taste in the Klansmen and the one taste in the protesters. And in that way, because she could see that, and maybe she could see that because she wasn't proud, standing, these are the protesters and there's the Klansmen. Maybe she didn't really strongly apprehend those visions. so then she could move into this position of protecting all beings. And in doing so, brings a... Yeah, and then she indirectly, she shows you indirectly you're being told about something that has one taste.

[46:26]

And how can we practice that when people think there's two tastes here? How can we practice that? How can we open to that? How can we be How can we face our pride and antidote it? What's the antidote of the pride? And then when the pride is antidoted, then we can open to the truth and then we can serve beings as we're observing this object of purification. And then we and all beings are purified by contemplating this object. Even if they're not yet contemplating it, if we are, they gradually become drawn into it, just like this woman maybe was contemplated. Also, she drew some photographers into it. That's why they published it, right? Yeah, so somebody thought, wow, this is like something unusual here.

[47:29]

I mean, I think this woman is observing the ultimate which has the character of one taste. We should get a picture of this. the consciousness of the man being protected, his who knows what was happening. It doesn't matter in some ways, but it does in others. And then when I looked blind to see people's responses at the time who'd written it in the newspaper about this incident, she got slammed for doing it. She got slammed? Slammed for doing it. By some people? By me, I mean, whoever responded. I didn't see a single... I mean, people were mad at her for protecting this person. They couldn't sort of wrap their hands around her. It was just interesting. Is that all there was? A totally devastating movie. Life-changing. That's what it was.

[48:32]

Homer? I kind of lost my question. You lost your question? That's a good sign. For the beings who have an understanding and they're very rigid or very right about their understanding... All beings have understanding. And understandings have a hierarchy. The thing is, are we prideful about our understanding? And most people, whatever kind of understanding they have, most people, a lot of people, are proud of it. I wonder if pride comes from not really understanding their understanding. Pride comes from not understanding the ultimate. If they really understand it, then there would be no pride. If you understand the ultimate, there would be no pride.

[49:35]

But you can have a lot of other understandings that still allow pride. Examples of people who are venerable elders they wouldn't be able to do the practices that are listed here unless they're quite highly evolved meditators but they were actually doing these practices and they even go through the stages they were doing so these are people who definitely have understanding of a quite high level human beings have wonderful understandings you know Little children, not bigger children. It's just wonderful to see the understanding people have. The key is how not to be proud of it. Now, if you understand the ultimate, that's different. If you understand the ultimate, you won't have pride. Or if you don't have any pride, then you're open to... Not having pride isn't the same as understanding the ultimate. It means you're ready to understand it. So you can have good understanding, but just not the understanding ultimate.

[50:37]

So the Buddha is saying in this part of the sutra that we need ultimate truth. That will, of course, cure pride, but it also will purify the phenomena of all things that need to be purified. given to that understanding that it does not allow it to open? Or what makes that understanding locked? What makes it closed? Pride. Yeah, pride. Pride is that tendency towards pride blocking the opening to the ultimate truth. It doesn't block... There's quite a bit of understanding in these elders, but... their pride in their understanding blocks their opening to the ultimate.

[51:37]

Their understanding is not the object of purification of all phenomena. And pride is the last, what is it called, pride before the fall? Pride is, these guys are really highly evolved and their pride blocks them Entering the ultimate truth and entering in the purification of all phenomena. And we have a long history of pride. We don't have to work at it. It comes to us naturally. We have to work at studying, studying and learning and studying and learning. And also, now that we've learned something, to start to identify our pride, which is hindering our further progress into the deepest level of what we're contemplating. James, and then... This phrase, all of one taste, seems to show up in this chapter, and it seems kind of critical.

[52:38]

Yeah. Could you comment on what the meaning of one taste is? Well, I hesitate to comment on what it means, but rather to, what I say, contemplate what it might mean. I'd like to... This afternoon, I'd like to open up... What is the significance of this instruction? What is it pointing to? What kind of attitude is this instruction encouraging us to have towards all phenomena? It's saying there's something that's everywhere. What is it that has the same taste? Or what is it about everything that's the same? How can we open our mind to that? So I'd like you to think about that today and go into that in more detail or get more from you this afternoon about what that's about. Shoshana?

[53:41]

I think it's a little bit in line with this idea of attitude. Because when I hear pride, I'm... curious about the phenomenon of pride? I think curiosity is not so prideful. So now you're looking at phenomenon when you're curious, you haven't yet got understanding of it. So when you're, of course, you could be prideful that you're curious. Itself is not so prideful. So to be curious about phenomena may be good, and then when you start to see the curiosity deteriorate and you turn into apprehending things, then you say, oh, it's shifted now from curiosity. Oh, there's the pride. I think there's some pride there. Or I'm curious about it. Maybe that's... There might be some pride here coming.

[54:42]

The curiosity seems to be waning, and I'm enjoying the wonderful understanding that has come to me by my virtuous practice of curiosity. So I think curiosity is in the realm of the type of study that might help us find a way of studying phenomena. Do you have more to say about that? Yeah. When it comes to mind's dependence, there seems to be a kind of With pride, there seems to be some kind of phenomenon of dependence, dependence on something that gives me the right to maybe exist or something like that. It has a kind of, there's a reason for it. Yeah, yeah.

[55:43]

So when I think about what the question I'm sort of thinking about is, the attitude of which may be different from dependence on pride. It seems there's a momentum in that. So there's dependence on pride, okay? But I think I also... I didn't exactly heard, but it occurred to me when you're talking about dependence on pride that we might be using pride to protect ourselves from another kind of dependence which is more in line with the one taste. That we're afraid of the one taste our dependence on all beings and theirs on us. And because we're afraid of it, we think maybe with some pride we can cope with it.

[56:50]

Yeah, that's good. So that's a nice way to like... And being kind to that may help us wean ourselves about this pride which we think we need in order to proceed in our studies. Otherwise, if we actually open to this thing, what would... then we'd really get into how dependent we are, and that would be really dangerous. So if we could bring a little pride with us, maybe we can go in there. Thank you. Yes, Elena. Lunch and a lot of other things, yes, but go ahead. It occurs to me that no matter what I think I understand... No matter what you think you understand... No matter what you think of your understanding. Yeah, yeah. That if I think it actually is saying something about the object of my understanding, I'm prideful.

[57:54]

Yeah. Yeah. Profound, difficult to understand. I just wanted to mention something. First of all, I'm happy to see this wonderful group of people. And I wanted to tell you about something that I was just, that we're on the verge of doing here. I hope, I want to include you in this and get your support. A while ago, the fire department came and said, that this is a high-risk, pretty high-risk fireplace right here, and they no defensible space. In other words, the eucalyptus are so close to the building that they have no place to be to fight the fire of the eucalyptus if they caught on fire.

[58:57]

And So another way to put it is they won't come. If there's a fire around here, they won't come because they would be in danger to come and try to protect this house. So they told us that. With that warning, we are making defensible space. In other words, cutting down eucalyptus trees. Not cutting down, I'm happy to hear, live oaks. Among these eucalyptus around here, there are live oaks, but basically they're not combustible. They're not fuel. It's amazing, but it's not considered that way. The eucalyptus and also these pine trees over here are fuel trees. So we are now on the verge of contemplating a big, expensive tree-cutting project. And a lot of these eucalyptus will be cut down and covered.

[60:04]

And then they'll be, to save money, we're not going to take them away, but just leave them on the ground and let them decompose. That's the plan. So that if there is a fire, if there is a fire, it might not burn the building down anyway, but also the fire department will come and help us if there's a fire around here. The park, GGNRA, wants to take out all the eucalyptus, and I think they're going to do it, but they won't take out eucalyptus on private property necessarily. And they won't pay. I don't think they'll pay people to cover the expenses of cutting them down. So the private people, the non-governmental people, are going to be paying for this expensive pre-removal of the eucalyptus, which will Then we have the fire department to help protect us if there's a fire. Now, it turns out this is kind of a big sad thing of spending all this money.

[61:11]

And it's also sad to cut down beautiful trees. But these beautiful trees are basically, they're just going to keep growing and eventually destroy this building if we don't cut them back. And they'll also destroy a lot of other things. the sad policy of the park is to take out the eucalyptus and let the native plants come back. So I'm going with this program myself, and I hope you support it. Yes? That's the next part. So the first thing I thought was, oh my God. But then now I feel like, and then one other thing I found out about, it was brought to my attention and now to yours, that the property of the parcel is much, much bigger than I thought it was. The part that's enclosed in the fence is only about a third of the property. So the property is like... It's like a football field, long, and it's almost like a football field.

[62:17]

It's almost like 300 feet. 300 feet. It's almost how big the property is. So it's a huge property here, and... So people often think, well, if we cleared those trees and stuff, we could build more things here. But I don't know about that. But one thing we could do, one of the wonderful things we could do here is we could make a beautiful garden here. We could plant native plants way beyond the fence and make a beautiful place here with native plants. that turn out to be not so fire-danger-y. It's a difficult transition and a lot of noise is going to be involved and money, but um i think the result might be a kind of a wonderful opportunity to to take really good care of the large parcel and i think that the the park's gonna do the same thing coming from the other direction that's what they want to do cut down the trees and do the same thing of planting the native plants but we'll be i think ahead of them in that regard so i'm not i'm really kind of

[63:35]

I just feel this great, great opportunity, something really good for the land around here. And we've already, I think, you know, done quite a bit back there, but, and it can be extended now beyond the fence. Turns out that property belongs to No Boats, so we can work well beyond the fence. So there over, you know, there's years and years of wonderful work ahead of us. I was going to say trees can be planted. Live oaks can be planted. Yeah, and also the live oaks, there are live oaks out there already. When the eucalyptus are cut down, they will take over. If you look out there, you can see there are live oaks out there, and then they will come back, and we'll also plant more native plants. And if you also look up on the hill here, you'll notice when we cleared away the eucalyptus droppings, All these little green plants are coming up.

[64:38]

You see them? I don't know what they are, but there's lots of plants up there that aren't eucalyptus that are growing. I don't know what they will become, but they're not eucalyptus. Have you noticed them? I'll show them to you. And I'm also planting... We've also planted four... ...around the house, which are also... They're not oily. They're not oily. They're no problem. Yeah, they're not oily. So nearby we can have these Japanese maples, and further out we can have the live oaks. Are they saying that the debris will also be kindling? They're going to chip the debris. Ah. Chip the debris. rapidly mulch. Yeah, chip the debris and then just leave the logs on the ground. So, yeah. So the logs won't turn up as kindling as they try?

[65:38]

No. And they can be, I think they'll decompose over time. And I don't know, we may want to take them out, but that's a big expensive thing to do. And maybe there's some way we can work with them being on the ground. Are you free to say what are the two different ways of doing this? What are the two different ways? Oh, taking it out? Taking it out. I don't know how much it would cost to take it out, but I don't know how much it would cost to take it out. But the way of doing and not taking them out is going to be cost, I don't know, $1,000. The 100 trees. I think we're talking about 100 trees. On this property? Yeah. The parcel goes into the canyon over there and down to the neighbor's patio. So it'd be like two rows in the backyard, like two rows of eucalyptus, which they're also going to fall over in the house pretty soon.

[66:44]

So to take them out for defensible space around the house, but also to take them out so they don't fall in the house, but leave some of the other ones up there for now anyway. But the ones below are the ones that will feed the fire up here. The ones above aren't fire danger. This way. Yeah, but there's nothing up there. There's just a road. And there's nothing on the other side of the road. They took out the eucalyptus on the other side of the road. So if they burn up, they won't do much problem. But down below, these eucalyptus down here, those right there, they'll just... It will come uphill, probably, if it does. The neighbors don't have this kind of land. They don't have... That's our land down there. My question is, have you investigated the decomposition processes of the eucalyptus trees and leaving them here?

[67:45]

Because my understanding and our experience in our community garden with eucalyptus mulch is that things don't tend to grow there when it decomposes. It could be 15 years or more. Again, it's okay to take that stuff away, but it may take us long. Like up here, we had the stuff falling from the trees, and we're just gradually... We can take it away. It's just that the knot can take it away right away. But we can take it away. And if it's like up here, it basically was making it so you couldn't walk up there. before. Now you can walk up there. So I think we can take it away, just as they're not going to take it away now, and they're not going to leave it unmulched. Right. No, but we can chip material and just gradually take it away.

[68:46]

You're sticking to the logs. Huh? The logs. The logs not, but I'm not expecting anything to grow under the logs. What did you just say? I'm saying that that We can take that away little by little and clear it because I think that to walk on chipped eucalyptus isn't necessarily compatible with human beings, you know. Does that make sense? It does. I guess I'm just curious if the decision has already been made to mulch the area. As opposed to what? Taking it out? Yeah, we can't afford to take it out. I think cutting the trees down is enough. It costs $2,500 to lift a stick down. But as the number gets up, it gets less and less expensive. That's it to cut it down.

[69:46]

to take the tree away and to take the mulch away. Not the mulch, the chipping. I don't know what that would do. In other words, I don't think we can do all that and create enough space. But I think the chipped stuff we can take away ourselves. We can run a dumpster and we can collect it and take it away. but to have higher professionals to take the chips away would just make it more expensive. I'd be happy. I'm not opposed to taking logs away and stuff. I just think it would double, triple the cost and put it up around $100,000 probably, I guess. I haven't even asked. I thought this was enough. I'm surprised that we're able to pay for this. So it's better to take out all of the... all at once, and then little by little... We're not mulching the trees, we're mulching the branches. The branches. Yeah. You're taking out a hundred trees.

[70:50]

Yes. You're mulching the branches. Yeah. And you're leaving the logs. Yeah. And then, so as opposed to, I guess, or instead of taking... mulching the branches, taking the mulch away, and then move to the next section. The problem with that is that we don't have the defensible space until we get out 50, 100 feet. So that would be, you know, we don't know what year the fire is going to come and the trees are going to get bigger. So to take the trees down now and create the space and then try to take the stuff away over the years, So we have the defensible space soon, and we can deal with logs. We can deal with logs once they're cut, I think, ourselves into little pieces. But that would take us years. But in the meantime, the house doesn't burn down, probably, even if there's fire.

[71:52]

So I don't know, that was proposed by the arborist and the fire department. It would be happy for us to take everything out, no problem with that. It's just that that's too expensive, I think, to both take the stuff out and have 50 to 100 feet around the house. Yeah? I'm wondering if there's some commercial use for that mulch that could be sold off. Yeah, it could be, yeah. I've heard that, that people want mulch. But to sell it off might not be the same as to transport it. We might have to bring it to people. So we might be, huh? Yeah, we could have people come in and collect mulch. Yeah, that'd be fine. But a lot of people would not be willing to do that. They don't want to come and collect it and rent the truck. But we could put the word out, you're welcome to come and take eucalyptus logs and stuff away. It's not a desirable commodity. It's a weed deterrent, and it kills weeds, and it deters weeds.

[73:01]

Right. It's highly specific. Right. So I think eventually we have the potential here of eventually clearing the chipped material and having earth again, and then see what grows when we take it away. But that's going to take... I think that's... But that's what I saw as this wonderful possibility, is to take the trees out. Because when you have the trees, you still have the stuff in the ground that nothing can grow under. So over time, we can get back to the ground, and like we ended up here, we can grow there. I thought that was really a wonderful possibility, so I'm really happy about that. Kind of releasing. Yeah. Falling away? Yeah. To make this... To the cut-in? Yeah. I think September. Or... I'm just going to come in.

[74:05]

And I think it'll be about two weeks, maybe less. And also these pine trees, they're all sick. Beagles? I don't know, it might be zetals, but anyway, if you look at it, they're yellowing and they're also flammable right next to the house. And just beyond the fence there, you'll see that there's four trees that are completely dead on the neighbor's property. So I actually like these pine trees, they're beautiful trees, but they're sick, they're gonna go anyway. So it's gonna look different around here. And yes, David? I totally support this. This is a great idea. But there's another short-term thing, and I wonder if this is included. You've got a lot of slash down there where we have been clearing stuff up, I mean, a bunch. It's highly vulnerable. Will that be taken? No, but it might be chipped.

[75:06]

Well, it's pretty dangerous. Yeah, chips there. I guess you can ship the bike, but that stuff is... Well, maybe we can't do that. Okay. Yeah. Does NucLog have the resources to support that? Yeah. Someone is going to pay for this. To put it up to the cost of taking the logs out and and doing the chipping, I don't know if that would be workable. But I think it seems that we will be able to have the money to pay the arborists to cut the trees down, which is wonderful. That might be possible. We're also thinking another possibility was to give that land beyond the fence to the park if they would agree to take the trees out.

[76:13]

But I don't think they take the trees out. Yeah, if we gave them the land, they might. They won't pay for trees to be removed on private holdings. So one possibility is to give them that land and see if they would take it out. But that would be kind of complicated. And that is being researched. Now, as you know, this last week and this week, the park is being asked, if we give you this land, will you cut the trees down? That would be okay with me, too, just to give the land away to them. But we need them to cut the trees down basically now. So if they would agree to that, then I would say, okay, that's your property. and we just cut these trees here within the fence, the first two rows, that would be okay. But these trees right here, I would want them to cut these down, right, soon.

[77:17]

So if they would do that, that would make it much less expensive, which would be fine. And maybe then, if it was much less expensive, we could afford to take these trees out, too. So... Changing the schedule of teaching here? What? Will you be changing the schedule of teaching here? No. The work will be done before the next one-day sitting. Yes? Have you talked to the neighbors? I went to the neighbors and they said, Wow, thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate you coming to talk to us. It's like they were surprised, you know. They were supporting it, but also they were surprised that I would consult with them and see if it's okay with them. Yeah, so this is the near neighbors. I haven't gone way, way far away.

[78:19]

I've talked to some to get their advice about things, but basically we have really nice neighbors, and they appreciate us. consulting with them about what's going on here. So there's some neighborhoods where we wouldn't be able to, you know, where people would not let us park in the street and stuff. So we're very fortunate that, I don't think we knew when we moved here that we would be allowed to do what we're doing, but sure enough, they're supportive. So yeah, I did talk to the neighbors. Could we have a ceremony this afternoon for treats? Yeah, we could. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much.

[79:13]

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