Some people have been saying to me, well, when are we going to start studying about suchness? One of the questions I got was, can a retarded person realize great compassion, not just have a glimpse of it? Depends on what you mean by retarded, I guess. By the way, the grades for this group on the enthusiasm, I would say about A or A-. Does a retarded person, can a retarded person have a realized great compassion or just have a glimpse of it? Yeah, it depends on what you mean by retarded.

[01:20]

I think that there's some debate about whether retarded people can have constant great compassion. If retarded means you're retarded by your past action, in other words, your past action makes you such that you don't want to practice, that you think it's a waste of time, and you'd rather just conquer the world for the sake of your clan, that kind of retardation would be an obstacle to sustained great compassion. If you mean some other kind of retardation like dyslexia or average IQ or below average IQ, that's probably not such a problem.

[02:31]

Because even people with low IQs are concerned whether or not they get their popsicles. If you have a sense of self, you suffer, and if you suffer because of the sense of self that you have, you've got enough intelligence to have a sense of yourself, and that's enough intelligence to have problems, and that's enough intelligence to practice. If you're self-concerned and petty and stuff like that, afraid of, you know, what's going to happen to you and what people think of you, or if you're in denial about all those concerns, you're smart if you're smart enough. Um... Perhaps a leap forward might be fun, and then we can go back and do more background work, if necessary.

[03:40]

It's a cyclical thing. Oh, another question was, where does perfection of wisdom fit into the diagram or something? Perfection of wisdom fits in right here. Perfection of wisdom is... the awareness of the pinnacle arising. The Buddha said, if you see the pinnacle arising, you see Dharma. You see Dharma, you see Buddha. So a clear vision of the pinnacle arising is the perfection of wisdom. Nagarjuna says, for one who sees the pentacle arising, there is a clear vision of the suffering, the origination of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the path.

[04:53]

I propose being upright is our yogic practice. entrance to the vision of the pinnacle rising and also i wrote you know like love you know wisdom love wisdom Part of what comes from the vision of dependent core arising, what comes from perfection of wisdom is great compassion. True, non-clickish love comes from great perfection of wisdom. But love also guides you to perfection of wisdom. Lovingly meditating on what's happening is what we mean by being upright.

[06:06]

Being upright is to be upright, to be alert and erect, but it's also to be very tender with each experience. Not coddling each experience, Maybe not even quite cuddling each experience, but maybe more like cradling each experience. Taking care of each experience so the experience doesn't get hurt by you. So the experience can shine clear and reveal its secret, which is, I'm dependently co-arisen. I'm a dependent co-arising. I often tell the story, it's a wonderful story. It's not a wonderful story, it's a crummy story about a wonderful thing I saw. I was at the airport, either going to or coming from Japan, and I saw this Japanese mother taking care of her son.

[07:15]

He was a toddler. He was all over the airport. And she was just there. Wherever he was, she was there, right behind him. She didn't have them on one of those little leashes. So he was there, she was there. He was there, so she was there. She was all behind him because any time, at any moment, he could hurt himself. He could fall over and hit his head on a sharp piece of furniture. He could, you know, go down the escalator. She wasn't telling him where to go. She was just with him and ready. And sometimes he knew she was there and sometimes he didn't. But he was just being himself and she was just demonstrating what it means to just be upright, just attentive and with what's happening.

[08:17]

This kind of a loving attention you will gradually... you'll gradually realize the nature, you know, the ultimate nature of reality, which is the pinnacle of rising, according to the Buddha. That's what the Buddha called it. So there is one of my favorite little teachings from the Buddha, which you have in your in your little book that we passed out is admonitions to this monk named Bahiya This translation says, then, bahiya, thus must you train yourself.

[09:28]

I usually remember it as, bahiya, train yourself thus. In the seen there will be just the seen, in the heard there will be just the heard, in the reflected just the reflected, and in the cognized there will just be the cognized. And the word reflected could also be translated as in the sensed. In the seen, there will be just a seen. In the heard, there will be just a heard. And in the sensed, there will be just a sensed. This term reflected here, I forgot the Sanskrit. Does anybody remember the Sanskrit for Pali? It's something like manos or something like that. It turns out that this expression, which one of the meanings of it is reflection, could also be sensed, and it actually is a technical term which is a summary of, summary of, sort of a summary of, it means smelled, taste, and touched.

[10:51]

So you could expand this quotation of in the smelled there will be just the smelled, in the tasted there will just be the tasted, and in the touched there will be just the touched. Okay? That's how he suggests to train yourself. So when you touch something, there's just the touched. When you smell something, there's just the smelled, and so on. And when you cognize something or when, you know, in other words, when you touch, when you touch or are touched by a cognitive object, an object of cognition, there's just the object of cognition. That's it. That is how bahiya, you must train yourself.

[12:02]

Now, bahiya, when in the scene there will be just, there will be to you just the scene, and so on, then bahiya, you will not identify yourself with it. So he says this is how you train yourself. You train yourself, try to go around, try to train yourself that, of letting what you touch just be, when you touch something, let the touch just be the touch, the touch just be the touch, and so on. But although you train yourself that way, it may take quite a while before that's how things are for you. In other words, it may be a long time, for a long time you may go around with, I'm touching that, I'm smelling that, I'm tasting that, I'm thinking that, that may go on for a long time.

[13:05]

But this is an example of, you know, you train yourself at this, and finally you might get to the point where there's a thought, there's a cognition, and in that cognition there's just the cognition. Get to that point. you are not identifying with the cognition anymore. And, of course, that also means you're not disidentifying with it. It's not like that's my thought, or that's not my thought. First of all, it's just the thought. Now, if somebody asks you who owns it, you hear that question, and in that question there's just that question, or, you know, But still, then the thought might arise in you, oh, it's me that had that thought. and that me that had that thought is now, then also just a cognition, oh, it's me that had that thought, but then the sense of me might arise at that moment.

[14:13]

But this sense of self is the sense of self that arose from a world where there was just a cognition, a question, a cognition, a sense of self, and the sense of self is just something that was born in that, by that story I just told. Prior to that, they were just like cognitions, which were just cognitions. Smells, which were just smells. Touches, which were just touchables. That was the world that you entered through this kind of training. Now, Tassajara, I call this instruction here training in suchness or training in thusness. There's problems in that name, which I may get into a little later. Anyway, when you When that's how it is for you, that things are that way, then you won't identify with these experiences. And if you don't identify, when you don't identify yourself with the seeing or the heard or the cognition, when you don't, then you will not locate yourself therein.

[15:25]

And when you don't locate yourself, therein, it follows that there will be no here or there or in between. And that will be the end of suffering. Okay? That's why I like that teaching. And some people practice that around here with various levels of success, but also application. Some people do it a lot, some people do it a little. But once you do it a lot, Once you're doing it continuously, basically you're a success because you're on the track to realize this selflessness through this particular mode.

[16:28]

Now, I might parenthetically mention a little bit more about this story, is that this bhaiya came up to the Buddha when the Buddha was going was alms, was gathering alms. And some of the best stories are about when the Buddha was, you know, begging and monks came up to him and asked questions and the Buddha would say, this is not the right time, I'm trying to get my lunch. And they would persist, you know, and then he would say, oh, okay, and then he would give them this great dharma and then they would leave him alone and he kept begging. This is one of those occasions where the Buddha was not actually... So when he was begging, he didn't teach. He just was a beggar. He would teach before going begging or after he got back. But anyway, some people tried to ask him questions when he was begging. He usually tried to put them off.

[17:34]

But if they pressed him, he would... he would give it to him. So he gave Bahiyya this instruction while he was begging. And then Bahiyya left him alone and finished the begging rounds. After he left, Bahiyya got killed by a mother cow. I mean a cow. A cow is a mother ox, right? No? An ox is a fixed mother or a fixed male. So a cow is a female cow What? Female bovine? So this is a mother bovine that killed the monk. And the reason why she killed him probably was because he got between her and her kids, between her and her clan. So she took a few steps backwards in her practice. you know, because of her program, her program to, you know, protect her genetic, you know, success.

[18:45]

She didn't sort of let go. Oh, now, how did this come to be that this monk who just got this nice instruction from the Buddha got between me and my kids? It reminds me of a song that was popular when I was a kid called, one of the main lines goes, Lord help the mister that comes between me and my sister. And Lord help the sister that comes between me and my man. Pardon? You didn't? Maybe you were asleep. Maybe you didn't listen to the radio when you were supposed to be listening to the radio.

[19:57]

I think that was the McGuire sisters, by the way. It goes, sisters, sisters, we're the very best sisters. What? From a movie? Is it the McGuire sisters? It's from White Christmas? Do we have that video here? Because White Christmas is a California movie, right? White Christmas takes place in Hollywood, right? So anyway, you know, Bahiyya got between a mom and her kid, so she killed him, and the Buddha came back, and the Buddha said, well, let's do a nice funeral ceremony for Bahiyya, so they picked him up and got him fixed up and cremated him in the ceremony for him, and the Buddha said, Bahiyya,

[21:14]

He's a wise monk. He realized Buddha's wisdom by this instruction. He practiced it. Practiced it right away, as soon as he got the teaching from the Buddha. Now a step backward is to point out that There's two dimensions of attachment that are referred to in the Heart Sutra, where it says, without any hindrance, no fears exist. Know that? Literally, what it's talking about there is, it says no hindrance, it's talking about two, it's talking about, it's actually, in Sanskrit, it actually mentions two hindrances.

[22:18]

Two retardations. Does anybody know where the hino is? Okay. Diana, would you call the Ino? See what's happening with the Ino. Who tankin' is the Ino? Who's the tankin'? Where's the tankin'? Where's the tankin'? Is there a tankin'? Are you the tankin'? Are you tankin' the Ino? Does the Ino go find out where people are? Would you find out where the Ino is? He might be at home taking a little after-breakfast nap. He probably was studying dependent core arising, took a nap, but then the penkin didn't get him up. We'll see. It's not funny, Lee?

[23:30]

There's actually three hindrances that are important. And the word hindrance is avarana. A-va-ra-na in Sanskrit. It means hindrance or covering or obstruction. And there's three types. First type is karma. Second type is klesha. Third type is niya. And karma means, you know, means action, right? Means self-centered or, you know, action which comes from, based on belief in self. Karma is action. Avarana means hindrance or covering.

[24:36]

In the Heart Sutra it says, when there's no hindrance, there's no fear. And the hindrance that are referred to in the Heart Sutra are aklesha and nyaya coverings. When those coverings are removed, there's no fear. Without any fear. obstruction or covering due to klesha and yaya, which I haven't told you what they are yet. When those coverings are removed, you're not afraid anymore. You're not anxious anymore. The first type of covering is the covering of karma, which means the hindrance, the retardation in your practice is due to karma, due to the actions which have been committed under the auspices of this sense of self, sense of your identity, which are originating from your belief in your identity, that creates obstruction to bodhi.

[25:43]

The next kind of obstruction is obstruction due to not the actions which emerge from the belief in self, but the obstruction due to the belief in self. So, if you're practicing wholeheartedly, which is possible, even while you're still believing in self. Did you contact him? Yes, I did. Good. Did you practice today wholeheartedly? Did you practice today wholeheartedly? It's possible you might say, yes. Do you want to practice wholeheartedly? You might say, yes. And you might really mean that and practice wholeheartedly. So when you really say, yes, I will, like during the precept ceremony, yes, I will, at that moment, in some sense, karmic hindrances are not really operating very strongly because you say just the right answer. Just like you would if you had no karmic hindrances, just like you would if you were Buddha.

[26:48]

Buddha would say, yes, I will. And if you say it with, you know, honestly, wholeheartedly, your karmic hindrances aren't working very strongly then. But you still might believe that you exist independently and you still might be concerned that you get a good deal out of this practice period or something like that. And so that hindrance is a hindrance which comes from you believing in your independent existence. So klesha means stain or defilement. It's the defilement the disdain in your practice, the hindrance, the covering of your practice due to your conscious and unconscious belief in self-existence, independent self-existence.

[27:49]

Now, If we practice meditation and are successful in our meditation, like the meditation right here, then it is possible that we would remove this kind of, this klesha avarana. Because, like it says, when for you, in the herd, they're just a herd, then you will not identify with it, and so on. So, in a sense, at that point, this obstruction due to belief in self is is at least temporarily dropped. There's another kind of obstruction, which is the obstruction of the nyaya, which means the obstruction of knowledge, which could still be there. Or you could say it's the obstruction of false knowledge in parentheses. It literally means the obstruction due to knowledge or the knowable. And that can still hinder you and still give rise to some sense of anxiety if you are still clinging to the elements of experience from which you compose.

[29:14]

your sense of self. Even though you don't believe in independence anymore, you might still believe in the diamonds which come to give rise to your sense of self. So this kind of, either kind of, with both of these kinds of hindrances, or either one of them, you still feel somewhat, there's still a sense that something is isolated and independent in that thing, and there's a feeling of threat. and anxiety about that something. So that's why we not only have to practice this kind of wisdom, which looks at the phenomena, the phenomena world, and particularly keeps track of this self, and sees the dependent core rising. Not only do we have to do that, but we also have to practice giving. We also have to be very careful of everything we do, conscientiousness, we have to practice conscientiousness, vigilance, all of our conduct.

[30:25]

We have to practice patience, enthusiasm, concentration. In other words, we have to do these other practices that we've already sought, but to generate this more, you know, compassion store. and the merit of all that activity removes actually the more subtle aspects of self-clinging. So, it isn't enough just to practice perfect wisdom. You have to also practice giving. But it isn't enough just to practice giving. As I said yesterday, giving will give you access to the world of dependent core arising, for which you then will experience joy and gratefulness. But without training yourself in the perfection of wisdom, that won't hold. And vice versa, even if you train yourself to have a clear vision, an intuitive

[31:31]

vision, even if you train your intellect so that it is in alignment with, totally convinced of the teaching of the Pentacle of Arising, unless you dedicate your life to the welfare of others, unless your actual behavior is like the way you handle material, the way you give and take between people, the way you touch things, the way you do orioki, the way you open doors, the way you do things, unless you do these things with great conscientiousness, unless you're really patient with your pain, unless you're really enthusiastic about the hard work, be concentrated, unless all these things are done too, these good works, and done for the welfare of others, to benefit others, unless that's happening, this subtle, more subtle clinging two phenomena can still be there.

[32:34]

And when you remove these two levels of coverings, you realize two levels of selflessness. So, being upright, we enter awareness of dependable arising. In other words, perfect Prajnaparamita. And then Prajnaparamita plus the other five Paramitas can remove So, prajna by itself can remove the klesha agarana, and that gives rise to the realization of the selflessness of the person, which is called . Welcome, . means person or personality.

[33:36]

NIR means no. I mean, NIR, N-I-R. Is that the name of a product that removes hair? NIR? So it's kind of like that. It's person, NIR, Atmia. Atmia is, you know, Atman. Atman's the individual self. I never noticed that before. This is a great breakthrough in my epilogue. So by understanding, by removing this covering of the klesha avarana with the aid of prajnaparamita, by seeing dependent, by understanding dependent core rising, You remove belief in the self. You realize the selflessness, the no-self of the person. Then, as you continue to practice the perfection of wisdom, you continue to train your intellect, develop your wisdom of dependent core arising, along with all these other

[35:07]

compassion practices, like giving, then you realize the second level of selflessness is what we call dharma, nirapriya, which goes with the removal of the second kind of covering. And dharma nirapriya means the elements that you see dependent on the core arising, the elements in whose arrival you are born, elements that realize you. In other words, in the entire universe, all the phenomenal things of the universe that give rise to your sense of birth, to yourself. So even though you see that yourself is illusory and drop the belief on some level, there still is some deep human tendency to then project selfhood onto the elements which you see composing yourself and make them into little selves.

[36:20]

So as you continue to practice selflessness, in other words, as you not only have the intellectual conviction, of selflessness and the intellectual conviction that all dharmas are empty and dependently co-arisen. But you also put this conviction into practice by selfless conduct. That removes this more subtle level, the two together. And that's why in some ways, you know, that's why we practice together in a group. Because not only does a group hopefully, well, not only does somebody in the group hopefully encourage us to meditate on dependent core arising, but the interactions between all the members, including those who are actively discouraging you from meditating on dependent core arising, and your total devotion to these enemies of Dharma, are really, you know,

[37:28]

what gets down to the real deep self, klingon, as you're devoted to your enemies, your sangha enemies, those people who you have a tendency to wonder when they will be leaving Zen Center. There's a person at Green Gulch, there's two people at Green Gulch, and one of the people at Green Gulch Whenever we met the other person at Green College, after being away from each other for a while, one person would say to the other person, when are you leaving Zen Center? The person being questioned always wondered what that was about. And now the person who was questioning has left. But will return. That's the thing to remember, they always come back. So don't be in a hurry. That's one of Nietzsche's great insights called Eternal Recurrence. Whoever this person is, they're going to come back. It's okay to have a break, but don't spend too much time wondering how much longer you're going to have to deal with them.

[38:36]

Soon they'll be transferred to another position within Zen. Oh, they're going to Tassajara, or they're going to Japan. Oh, great. Soon they will be your boss. Soon they will be your disciple. soon they will be you. No, they'll never be you, but they are helping you become, yeah, they're helping you be you, they're giving you life, and if you're devoted to them, with the aid of training your thinking, you can remove all these kinds of self, remove those hindrances, and then there's no fear, there's no anxiety. So Avalokiteshvara, bodhisattva, practicing prajnaparamita, realized that all five skandhas are empty. So that means that Avalokiteshvara, when she looked at herself, she saw, didn't see, it's like a person there, she saw five skandhas.

[39:42]

But not only that, so she had realized, pudgala nairatmya, When she looked at herself, she just saw five skandhas. She didn't see a self. But then also, because she was so devoted to all beings, even the skandhas she saw as empty, even the dharmas that make up the self, those also she didn't attribute inherent existence to. So then she was relieved of all suffering and distress. Okay, so let's see, what other questions do we have? So that's a little... That's a little step back from the teaching that we took a step forward into, the training in suchness. Now, one other thing I want to say before we have some time for questions is that I called this teaching here of Buddha an example of the teaching of suchness, the teaching of thusness. And I think you know also that at the beginning of the Jewel Mirror Samadhi it says,

[40:47]

teaching of suchness or the teaching of thusness has been intimately communicated by buddhas and ancestors now you have it so keep it well okay i'd like to mention that in the process of retranslating that text um one of the buddhist scholars who was at the meeting said you know you could translate that first line there in a more informal way kind of a way that most chinese people would most Chinese civilians would probably translate that as, rather than the teaching of suchness or the teaching of thusness, they would translate it as a teaching like this. See the difference? Because the Chinese is, the Chinese-Japanese is nyōze no hou, nyōze. Nyō No ho. Ho means down in the kitchen.

[41:49]

Nyoze means like this. It also means such or thus. So this is in Sanskrit is ta ta ta. Ta ta ta. What some people say. Ta ta ta. Ta ta ta. That's the way they write ta-ta-ta. But it also means like this. So you see a different feeling of a teaching like this rather than a teaching of suchness. Teaching of suchness sounds like the teaching of this thing called suchness. And suchness has a tendency to be made into, in Buddhism, kind of absolute. And it tends to start to get to be like another self. Like a thing there. Rather than dependent core arising where there are no real independent things, everything's working together, suddenly in the middle of all this wonderful dependent core arising, then people say, well, let's call the way that is suchness.

[43:01]

So we've got to be careful here. And I'm sort of a little embarrassed by saying the teaching of suchness. And in the translation, although the one scholar said, why don't we just make it more soft, like the teaching like this? People want it to be the teaching of suchness, because it's got that more heavy doctrinal thing, like capital T, right? So that's the way it went. But now I feel like maybe a teaching like this is in some ways better. So the Buddha's teaching, train yourself such, train yourself thus, but when you train yourself, you've got to be careful when you train yourself thus or train yourself such that you don't make it into another self. You've got to be careful of this. Okay, let's see. And it's another question. Here's a question. When studying the self, are we studying the idea or belief in an independent self and then looking to see how that affects everything?

[44:15]

Answer? Yes. Then it says, or are we studying our actual self with all its individual characteristics and seeing how it was constructed and how its particular characteristics affect everything. Yes. It's not really or. It's not like individual self or actual self, because as I said yesterday, the self is a place where the individual self and the actual self are at the same place. The actual self means the self that is actualized by all things. That's the self that is seen in Bodhi. And in delusion, the same self is seen, but that self's already there.

[45:18]

It came individually. Right. rather than it came interdependently. It's the same self, though. So we study both of them, and it can vibrate back and forth between the individual self that does stuff and how that affects everything, and everything, how it affects and creates the individual self. It's the same, it's the pivot. The self is the pivot. The self is that you study that self, and it can be individual or actual. individual or actualized, same self. Okay? So now, it's question time, if you want. Is that enough input? Yeah. Okay. Questions? Do you have a question, Lee? I do have a question. Okay, well... What is it? I'd like to ask about this person that got transferred to Japan. So, there was hair, you know, that I was working with for some years.

[46:21]

Every time, there's some people, it seems like, from past colleagues' lives, maybe, or something, that every time you deal with them, you get burnt, you know? Yes. So, they got transferred to Japan, you know, but it's like, I don't need to stick, you know, I don't see why that's, Wrong, feeling a little sense of relief. If I walk by a barbecue and stick my hand in it, you know, once I know I got burnt, I don't need to do it again. You don't see what's wrong with the sense of relief? Yeah. What's wrong with it? Mm-hmm. I understand. We need to get on the scale. So what are the disadvantages of a sense of relief? The disadvantages of a sense of relief is if, you know, a little relief is probably, could be quite useful, like to loosen up a little bit. So like you're working with somebody, you know, and you're really tense, you know, because you're so self-concerned, you know, and again, you're like, like I was talking about yesterday, you're so self-concerned, you can't even dance with some people, right?

[47:25]

So here you've got this person, you can't dance with them, they won't follow you or they're stepping on your feet or whatever, it's a real problem situation, dance is not happening and it's their fault, right? But you can't flow with the situation and then they leave, you don't have to try to dance with them. So maybe the relaxation that you experience when they leave, that's good because then maybe you can try again and then maybe feel that same thing come up with somebody else. But get a little space there where maybe the relaxation might be a time, a little pause, where you could be more clearly aware of the tension you experience with somebody else. That's one advantage of relaxation. Relaxation and relief are not necessarily best. They can be useful. But the main use of them is so that there's some relief, also relief in the sense of a little... perspective on the study, so a little relief is good.

[48:29]

The disadvantage of relief is if you think, because of that relief, that you're not going to dance with this person later. That would be the disadvantage of relief. So relief has some positive sides to it that it sometimes helps you continue your study. Because sometimes if the pain of a relationship goes on too monolithically, your ability to study the dependent core arising of your pain with them might deteriorate under that excessive situation. Maybe you're not quite ready for such a challenge, you know, as this person is offering you. It will be better to, not better, but just turns out sometimes you get a break and then you can work on somebody else. But sometimes I do, I must admit, sometimes when I hear that somebody's going to be transferred, I sometimes think, ah.

[49:31]

But then I pretty soon say, well, what's going to take their place? You know. I found often that the next one that comes is harder. But if I'm willing to work with this person forever, then when they do go and the next one that's harder does come, I'm in better shape. But there maybe is a little sense of relief. A little pause there. A little pause. A little relief. Yes, next. That was a tie. You can go first. Could you give us an example of how maybe one specific element from number three there, how it makes you think you have to solve?

[50:34]

In the actual story of Buddhist meditation, you come to a place where you actually become free of your belief in yourself, of attachment to yourself, of belief in yourself, and therefore you're free of attachment to yourself as a person. Okay? That can happen. And that's considered to be personal liberation. Personal liberation isn't really the point because You can have personal liberation and still attribute reality to other things. So you're still not really liberated. But anyway, your perspective on yourself changes at that point and you still can see the composed thing called yourself. You understand that there's nothing graspable there. And not only that, but you bring it to, not just in your head, but your actual body is like that. And you can prove it. I mean, there's evidence of it. You act differently. People come and, you know, take your zafu or your umbrella or whatever, and, you know, you act differently than before.

[51:53]

But you still may believe in the elements which you now see as the way your self arose. You might still see that they have some inherent essential existence, that they're substantial. So like if I saw a teapot as having a film Right. Right. Or you might think that your feelings And your ideas, which you realize are the way you are composed as an individual, your name, your weight, all these kinds of things, you might transfer, shift the belief in self over to the elements by which you're born. and hold to them. you're relieved of clinging to yourself, to your personal self, but then this human capacity for substantializing things, looking for where to... The human capacity for substantializing things hasn't been completely dropped, because it can substantialize things just in the form of pulling out of

[53:35]

pulling out of the world of dependent core arising, pulling out some kind of package which it then can know. So we have this deep... The roots of self come from our deep breakthrough as an organism to be able to, like Gregory Basin used to say, to raid the random, to do raids on the randomness, to go into a random world and come back with a package that you can grasp and know. This is our breakthrough. And based on that, okay, there comes the idea that the self is a pivot where this raiding happens. Like I was talking about the other day about sound waves hit the ear, They get composed into words. That making of these sound waves and this sensory battering that's going on in relationship to sound waves, making those into words, that's this basic kind of like ability to package data into graspable units.

[54:41]

Then the next step in evolution is that we come up with a location or a pivot which is the subject of this wonderful ability to know things. And then this pivot turns into another packaged thing called an objective self. The meditation first addresses, this self is most obvious, the way we package things conceptually so we can grasp them as knowable objects, that's more subtle and deeper and absolutely necessary for us to function in our human being. But now the self has also become necessary. So first we study the self, that's the first line of anxiety and concern and problems. If you study that, you see how that arises in this, for example, this field of experience where the stuff's being made into packages, and then the way this packaging happens creates a sense of somebody who's in charge of this, and so on, so this idea of self comes.

[55:52]

So you see that, and you see that there's nothing there other than an imagined pivot in the middle of a process of perception. So that drops away, and you're transformed and liberated from that kind of attachment. this kind of selflessness is realized. And the karma and klesha avaranas are dropped away because the klesha drops away when you can study that your karma is not really interfering with you anymore. And when you study, you see the emptiness of yourself, and that's fine. But still this latent, this deeper tendency to make things into packages so you can know them is still there. So this substantializing tendency just shifts down the line and keeps working on phenomena and making them into words. Somebody goes, and makes waves in the air, the air hits your ear, and you go... So you're still kind of like doing that.

[57:02]

Now, you're free of yourself, but you still fight with people over words. And that actually happens, that people who have some self-liberation will fight with people about concepts. And that's part of the religious world, is that some fairly liberated people, in terms of the person being liberated, are still attached to This is a famous thing in Buddhism, and in all religions, is that some fairly liberated, fairly enlightened people who have realized this first kind of liberation, self-liberation, are still arguing over words. And sometimes they argue over from a point of having realized the selflessness of the words, And sometimes they haven't quite realized that. So that's part of the complication of knowing what kind of argument we're having. Is that making more sense to you now? John, did you have your hand raised? Yes, I want to ask you to explain, there seems to me to be a strong connection between impermanence and dependent core rising.

[58:11]

Yes. And I was hoping you could explain the difference and also the similarities between those two concepts. The world of, you know, the world before we do anything to it, before we come and, you know, make it into noble packages... That world is not only totally interdependent, so there's nothing that doesn't depend on everything else, but also it's flowing. It's pulsing. So these relationships are not fixed. The flowing aspect of dependent co-arising is impermanence. So all impermanent phenomena are also dependent co-arisings. But all dependent co-arisings are also impermanent. So it's like a moment, you just have this universal pulse, which is the arising of an interdependent universe, and then the ceasing, and arising and ceasing.

[59:22]

So this pulsing and flowing of relationships... so that the relationships aren't fixed and the relationships are changing all the time. That's the impermanent side and the dependent core rising side is the interdependence and insubstantiality of it all. Okay? And this situation is not comfortable for anybody who tries to be something in the middle of the scene. The scene is not some place to be somebody. Because everything's always undermining you as an independent operator, as something that lasts for a while. So we got this problem, we're like, we last for a while. We got problems with that. And also we're independent. So our lasting quality, the fact that we last for a while, we're fighting that reality, and the fact that we're independent. So our continuity of personal existence and our independence, these are being fought by the world of ultimate truth.

[60:27]

So somehow we have to practice in order to sort of get ourselves in line with what's really happening, or what's happening really. I don't know who is next. So let's just go. One, two, three. Carol, Fu, who else? Jeanette? Carol, you? I understand you say that numbers two and three were referred to in the Heart Sutra. Yeah. Where are they? It says, without any hindrance, no fears exist. So the English translation is hindrance, just the word hindrance. If you look at the Sanskrit, it says, without klesha and nyaya avarana. It says, klesha nyaya avarana, near, [...] near klesha, klesha nyaya avarana.

[61:30]

When there's no obstruction due to belief in self or packaging things, believing that the packaging that your mind does, your mind's still going to keep packaging things. It isn't that the bodhisattva mind stops creating the sense of a person. And it isn't that they stop creating the packaging of phenomena. It's that they see the dependent core arising. They are totally convinced of the dependent core arising of everything that appears. So they are not making these phenomena into substantial realities. And that means the hindrance is removed and then you're not afraid anymore. And at the beginning of the sutra, Amalekiteshvara looks See, he sees the five skandhas. In other words, he's already dismantled the person. So the kleshas removed.

[62:30]

But then he also sees the emptiness of the dharmas which give rise to the person. So at the beginning of the sutra, he or she has realized the removal of these two hindrances and therefore is free. And the removal of these hindrances is called prajnaparamita. But prajnaparamita, it doesn't mention, is practiced in conjunction with giving and so on. It won't really work fully if you don't practice the other paramitas. This is the kind of like, what do you call it, square bodhisattva path. All six paramitas. Jeanette? Interdependence? They're pretty much synonyms. It's just that dependent co-arising is pointing to the fact that it's through interdependence that things happen. that things arise, it's emphasizing, it's a little bit more dynamic in the sense of emphasizing the appearance and disappearance of things.

[63:46]

Dependent co-arising is slightly, has a little bit more dynamic quality. The interdependence means it's just that they're interdependent. But it's not just independent, it's interdependent, it's creating, it's an interdependent creation. How do you meditate on that? How do you, how? Yeah, what, like, Well, since it's a creative process, you can be creative in the way you meditate on it. So, for example, like I said, you can start just by tuning into the realm of delusion, where you're doing things. So then you see, oh, I talk, or I walk, or I think. So you just notice that. And then you start to notice, huh, that goes with also me being concerned with, you know, what I think and what I do. And also I notice, I think there's consequences for this or I don't think there's consequences for this.

[64:52]

As you notice how you think you make things happen, you get into how that works and how that happens that you see things that way. The very way That you see things that way will be the way you'll see things. That will be the springboard from where you will see things the other way. Namely, that you don't do these things, but these things make you. You don't make the world, the world makes you. But since we have the already well-established position of I make the world, or I do this and I do that, I make my actions, for example... We start where we are and observe the way we are. By observing carefully the way you are, you'll see the other side, namely the way you aren't or the way you're made rather than the way you make. Not so much the way the world practices you, but the way the world gives birth to you as a practitioner.

[65:55]

You'll see that it will switch. You'll switch from you doing things to things doing you. right at the same place. So look, study yourself, study yourself, study yourself. And like if you're an artist, okay, there you are. Singer, dancer, potter, writer, there you are creating these works and at some place it turns around and comes back at you. Like, again, like what's his name, Kafka, you know, he's a writer, right? He sits at his desk and writes these These works of literature, right? Kafka says you don't have to leave your desk. Just stay there at your desk and just stay there writing. You don't have to go to a monastery necessarily. Just keep writing your literature. Just keep writing your literature. Don't move while you're writing your literature. Just be right there. Be upright while you're writing. And pretty soon the words will turn around and tell you a secret. They'll tell you, you're not writing us.

[67:00]

We're making you a writer. If you just stay there with your art, stay there with your baby, stay there with your work, and see it the way you see it, and lovingly, uprightly, alertly meditate on what you're doing, you will see the pentacle rising now. If you want to, in addition to train yourself, you can remember this teaching, you can study this teaching, read the scriptures, immerse yourself in the teachings of dependent co-arising so that you understand this teaching correctly. So also studying the scriptures and the teachings about dependent co-arising helps so that as you do create karma as an artist or whatever, or a scientist, as you do that, you have the teaching with you to help you understand correctly what you're doing from the point of view of dependent co-arising. That will help you

[68:01]

And then when it turns around and comes back at you, you can see whether the way the world seems to be now from the point of view of Bodhi, whether that seems to be in correspondence with the Buddha's teaching. And if it is, then go talk to, again, a Buddhist teacher to see if they also think that the way you see it is in line with the Buddha's teaching. And if it is, then you've got proof of your understanding. Besides the fact, another part of the proof should be that you're not afraid anymore. Patty? Oh, yeah. Last night, when I fell down the stairs, there was this moment where I was thrown into chaos, and I was acutely aware of what was going on, and there wasn't any pain or fear, and it was like a slow motion. Yeah. And then, later on... Then things got non-chaotic again. Things got painful again. Right, that's a good example. I mean, I don't recommend it, but that's a good example. Yeah. See, and that's why we have some resistance to this practice because it's kind of like falling down the stairs.

[69:08]

That's why we do it sitting cross-legged in Zendo, you know, with other people there to help us in case we should happen to, you know, fall over or whatever. It doesn't happen very often, but it can happen, and we're afraid it might happen, so then we hold back. entering this world up, switching from, how do I control myself to stay in my seat and be upright and not fall over and be a great Zen student? How do I do that? Rather than look at, well, how is this happening? And when you get thrown down the stairs, in fact, that is your gift. Because there you don't think you're in control. For a second thing you say, we're out of control here, folks. And then when you hit the ground and you've got pain again, you're back in control. You can try to control that. But for a second there, yeah, that's what it's like. That's why we have some resistance to entering this world because we, you actually, in order to enter the world of being upright is the way you train yourself and training yourself the way Buddha is saying here is training yourself thus, you switch from power to love.

[70:21]

You switch from trying to control things to seeing how they are. When you love somebody, you're not trying to control them, you're wondering how they are, what they are. Like, I love Jordan, I'm not trying to control Jordan, I just wondered where he was. Okay? So you switch from power to love, you switch from control to, well, what's happening? How is this happening? Well, the scene is just a scene, the herd is just a herd. That's good enough for me. And now that changes, and now we've got another scene, another herd. So lovingly, alertly, like that mother in the airport, just stay with what's happening, not trying to control the little guy. And that way it throws you into a world which from the point of view of control is chaos. But from the point of view of just looking at it, it is bodhi.

[71:23]

When you have to see it, that is bodhi. Bodhi is the world happening prior to your even being there to consider the control. So there was a second there when you're falling when you didn't even think, well, now what should I do? So you're free. But if you were following, you didn't think what you should do, you're just free, but also you think, now what can I do to help other people? Then your understanding might have been a bit deeper. Anyway, that was pretty good. That's a good example. Let's see, who hasn't asked a question? Jokey. I've been listening and having a hard time when you say we train and train and train back in practice, and then we're going to come to this realization, when you use that terminology. Do you want to talk about that? Well, you want to talk about your problem? By doing that, that sort of continues a self floating around here.

[72:27]

What continues a self? Training? That if we're training, training, training, that this self and that self are somehow the same self? I don't know what you're talking about now exactly. What do you mean, this self and that self? I'm not talking about self, I'm talking about training. I heard you say that if you practice and practice and practice, then you'll wake up. Right. So, I'm not getting it. I feel like you're attributing something to the conversation that I'm not intending. Are you at the beginning and are you at the end of the same way? I don't mean that you are doing it, but you may see it that way, and I'm saying, if you see it that way, it's okay, you're allowed to practice from a deluded point of view. I'm not saying that's the way it is, that you are actually there doing the practice, when I say you. But if you see it that way,

[73:28]

It's okay if you think you're doing the training. That's okay, because the training will free you of that. I'm not saying there isn't you there. Oh, okay. I almost understood that as you. You're welcome. See, I don't know. I think Brian hasn't asked a question for a while. Maybe ever. I haven't for quite a while. In the Heart Sutra, it also says no attainment. Robert Thurmond, I think he's right. In Sanskrit it does say, no attainment and also no non-attainment. No attainment and also no non-attainment. Both of those. So it's like a process. It's a process, right. It's a process. It's useful with the process. Right, right. That's why it's nice to say rather than perfect wisdom, it's the perfection of wisdom. The perfection of wisdom never stops.

[74:32]

It isn't like you get perfect wisdom and boom. It's like perfection of wisdom means you're in this process of interrelationship of all beings. You're home. in reality. So it's a process. And you're continually training at bringing your life in line with ultimate reality. But you also are constantly aligning your awareness with conventional reality, which is where you think you're doing things. So you're studying both the self, which is doing things, an ultimate truth, which is everything gives rise to yourself. You study both worlds simultaneously. And actually you're free of both. So you don't make ultimate reality into a thing either. That's the thing about be careful to make suchness into a thing. I think it's again getting to be that time. Do you want to go a little later or should we stop?

[75:36]

How about the people who don't have their hand raised? Do you want to stop? No, I don't know. You have to go, right? You can keep going. How's the kitchen? The kitchen has to go. Okay. In about nine minutes. The kitchen has to go in nine minutes. Really? Nine minutes? You can stay nine minutes more? You can stay nine more minutes. Okay, we can have a couple more questions then. Sway... So, in the idea of the scene being just the scene and the heart being just the heart, I kind of see two ways to approach it, and it's slightly confusing. One way to approach it is to notice that the scene isn't just the scene, if that's what's happening to you, and see what is seen, and just keep looking at it. Right. That's right. But another way, which I find myself doing sometimes, is when I do notice that the scene is not just the scene, then immediately try and make the scene just the scene.

[76:36]

And sometimes that is able to happen, you know, for a moment, oh, it'll just be the scene. No, that's not it. The second part's no good, the first part's fine. The first part is, the first part you're admitting, I'm still in the realm of identifying with the scene. It's not just a scene, but I'm going to remind myself of the words, let it be that way, even though it isn't that way yet. So then in a sense you're letting the cognition that you're in addition to the scene still be there. So you're kind of like closer to letting the scene just be the scene when it isn't that way than if you try to make it that way. It's more in the spirit of the practice of letting go of control to let it be the way it is, even though it doesn't quite yet sound like it is. Because this is a way to train yourself into being the way it is. So, if it's not the way it's supposed to be, let it be that way. And that's close to the practice. It really is that way, somehow we can't quite believe it.

[77:40]

We think this couldn't be really what's happening. Even though we totally believe it is this way. Miriam? What I notice is that when I am embarrassed or feel humiliated is when I get a real strong sense of self. And it's real strong and I can't really see very much else. I know enough to feel like, all right, I need to turn toward that. Turn towards what? Towards what I'm feeling. I don't see embarrassed or whatever it is, rather than try to... Again, I would suggest, don't turn towards it. Don't turn away from it. Just be upright. Turning towards is a little bit too much. If the event's there and you're aware of it, that's enough. You don't have to stick your nose in your embarrassment.

[78:42]

Some other people, by the way, when they have a strong sense of self, feel really puffed up and arrogant and happy. But they don't have to turn towards that either. Just let the embarrassment be the embarrassment. Don't stick your head in it. Don't turn away from it, don't turn towards it. Don't touch it, don't turn away. Just be upright and aware and don't move. Be gentle and loving with this phenomenon of embarrassment at having a self. It is embarrassing to have a self. So, That's where we're at? That's enough. Don't have to turn towards it. That's a little bit too much. Okay. Elena? Yes. I often feel like a ghost caught in rambles and rushes. And I believe that I am doing it. Even though somehow I know that it's my habits that are doing it, but I'm not doing anything.

[79:50]

Yet I get caught up in the guilt of it. And because I have an excess energy that I apply to this guilt, it becomes like a big thunderstorm. It seems that I'm going to be caught in it forever. Then I lose heart. Yeah, that's depression. When you think it's going to last forever. So then you get depressed. So try to, before you get into thinking how long it's going to last, try to face this very embarrassing situation of being all tangled up. in self-concern and all the stuff you just mentioned. Try to sit upright and be gentle and loving with that situation. Like you have a very unruly being to take care of here.

[80:53]

But lovingly lovingly be aware of her. How tangled up she is. Be there compassionately hoping, wishing that she will be able to become free of this entanglement without trying to change the situation at all. Hoping the best for her, but letting things be the way they are. That's the being upright in such a situation. Okay? Don't think about the future. It's too hard. Just deal with this present entanglement and you will understand if you keep at that. Okay, Fu? Yeah, I was wondering if there's any... What's the difference between imputing impermanence or permanence on the sense perceptual field?

[81:57]

What's it do? Is there imputing impermanence on the sense field? Yeah, isn't that an imputation? It turns out that it's there without imputation. Is there anything else that's there without imputation? I take it back. Nothing's there without imputation. As soon as impermanence is there as a thing, there's an imputation of thingness on the situation. So impermanence is also an imputation. Dependent co-arising is an imputation. Insubstantiality is an imputation. Of course, substantiality is another kind of imputation, but insubstantiality is a liberating imputation. Impermanence is a liberating imputation.

[82:59]

Permanence and substantiality in independent existence are misery Misery, conditioning, imputations. But there aren't any things without imputation. Without imputation, may our imputation

[83:24]

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