I've heard it said that all living beings and all Buddhas are just one mind and that there is no... that there's nothing else. I've also heard that some of the ancestors of our tradition have recommended being absorbed in this one mind, or absorbed in the oneness of all living beings and all Buddhas. I've heard that this being absorbed, being intimate with this oneness of all living beings and all Buddhas, being absorbed in the sense that that's all that there is, and there's nothing outside it, that that's the whole story.

[01:40]

You can sit here if you want. This kind of absorption is called contemplating or being absorbed in ultimate reality. And this contemplation is contemplation of the Buddhas. This is the contemplation which bears fruit as freedom, bears fruit as great compassion. But it's also, I've heard the warning that in order to teach and practice this meditation on ultimate reality, we should be well grounded in the conventional reality.

[02:45]

And conventional reality is that there's something out there. separate from me, and that I'm not one with all living beings and all Buddhas. There is something besides. Maybe somebody's intimate with somebody, but there's something outside that. There's this phenomena called not being intimate and not being close, feeling separated. And there's perceptions of separate objects. There's some agreement about what these separate objects are and how they exist. That's the conventional truth. Conventional truth is I can do things by myself. Ultimate truth is everything, all the activities of this person are done together with everybody.

[03:52]

In ultimate truth, that doesn't mean nothing can happen. There's great activity, but it's just not isolated and cut off. It's interdependent activity. So once again, it seems reasonable that when we're well grounded in the world where we think we can do things by ourself and the workings of that world, that's the foundation for meditation on a world where we can't do things by ourself, where we don't do things by ourself. Getting a cold? Allergies, huh? One of the images that appear in some ancient Chinese texts and some Zen texts is the image of a story of a person or persons who love dragons.

[05:26]

They love the image of a dragon. And there was a particular story about a man who loved dragons very much. And he had a house full of various kinds of carved and painted dragons, dragons made of various substances, various materials, wood, stone, jade, coral, lapis lazuli, and painted dragons. And one day a real dragon was flying over his house and sensed that a dragon aficionado was living in the house and probably would like to meet a real dragon. So the dragon came down to his house and came over to the window or doorway of the house and the man who loved dragons saw the real dragon and

[06:31]

In one version of the story, he kind of just went and fainted. In another story, he was frightened and actually almost drew his sword to strike the dragon. I think both versions of the story are interesting. The second one, in some ways, is really interesting to me because it conveys the message that if we do see the real dragon after becoming accustomed to carved dragons, we might try to kill it. Or you could even go to say that, to some extent, making carved dragons, if we're not so much careful, can possibly slip into doing some harm to real dragons. But, you know, we can't help it sometimes. We just have to make our carved dragon.

[07:36]

So we make a carved dragon, right? We make a world. Our mind makes a world, which is a version of actuality. It's a version of it. It's a depiction of it. It's a picture of it. And if we are not grounded in the picture of the reality, and if we don't, to some extent, understand that it's a picture, then the real reality to appear to us, we might be very shocked and have a hard time facing it. But if we can become intimate with the carved, the depicted, the imagined, the mind-created world, and understand that's what it is, it's possible that in the process of opening to that and becoming intimate with that, we would develop the ability to open to and become intimate with the real situation.

[08:50]

I think we would be able to open to the way our separation works, the way we feel separate from each other. We would study that and become well grounded in that and how that works. Then we would be able to open to and become intimate with the way things work in the realm of oneness. In a couple places the Zen master Dogen speaks of these dragons.

[09:51]

In one case he says, don't be suspicious of the real dragon. Don't be suspicious or distrustful of the real dragon. In another place he says, don't Well, he's talking about dragons and then he speaks of the car dragon as near and the real, the actual dragon as far. Or the carved practice. The carved practice we do. Our depiction of practice that we're involved in. Each of us probably has some picture of our practice. Some people have a fairly clear picture and some people don't. Like now we have a practice period, so maybe some of you have a picture of your practice.

[10:52]

I'll just guess, maybe you could tell us later, some of you may have a picture of yourself. Like you've got a little picture of yourself, some cute little person who's walking around Green Gulch for a couple of months. And maybe you have another picture of whether you're standing up straight or not. Maybe you have a picture of yourself you're kind of slouched over, trying to stand up straight. I don't know. Anyway, you have some picture of yourself conducting yourself around the planet in this valley, going into meditation halls, sitting down at certain times, sitting in a certain posture for a certain period of time, getting up, bowing, chanting, going to work, attending various other events, eating. Having some snacks between meals. Or not. Going to bed.

[11:54]

Having nightmares. Getting up in the morning with some resistance or not. some picture of your practice, and then maybe while you're sitting you have a picture of what you're doing while you're sitting, some picture. This is a picture of your practice, right? That you can see, think about, tell somebody about, write a novel about, write a letter about, tell me about. And then there's the actuality of your practice. which might be quite surprising to you if you could somehow be exposed to it. The picture of your practice might be fairly near to you now. It might be quite accessible. The actuality, in some sense, might seem far away. So Dogen says, don't esteem

[12:57]

or despise. Don't esteem or despise the near. Some of you have a picture of your practice. Don't esteem it. Don't praise it. Don't despise it. Rather, become adept at it. I would say, become intimate with it. And then he says, don't esteem or despise the far. Don't esteem or despise the actuality of your practice, the actuality of your life. Many people might think, well, I suppose the actuality is better than the apparent dreamlike version of my life.

[14:05]

He says, don't say it's better and don't say it's worse. Don't esteem or despise that either. Become intimate with it. Become intimate with the oneness of your life and all other life and all the Buddhas. Become intimate with that. and become intimate without saying that that's better or worse than feeling separate from each other. That instruction comes from, I guess, comes from someone who is virtually convinced of all the Buddhas and all the living beings practicing together every moment, was virtually convinced that when the world is born, you're born with the world.

[15:18]

At the moment you're born, the world's born. At the moment the world's born, you're born. People are convinced of that, talk like that. The Bodhisattva precepts are also given by these people, like taking refuge in Buddha, taking refuge in Dharma, taking refuge in Sangha, embracing and sustaining the forms of practice and the ceremonies and regulations of some practice program, embracing and sustaining some discipline of your body and mind, embracing and sustaining all kinds of wholesome activities, embracing and sustaining all beings. These precepts are given by the ones who understand the interdependence of all beings.

[16:23]

And these precepts can be practiced. You can practice the carved version of these precepts and the real version of these precepts. Get intimate with your carved version, with your story of what it means to take refuge in Buddha. Get intimate with your story of what it means to not kill, to not steal. Become intimate with that. And don't esteem your understanding or your version of these precepts. Don't say, this is not killing, and my understanding of not killing is really top notch and excellent. This is my understanding of not killing, and I'm practicing not killing. And also my understanding, I don't demean my understanding of not killing either. I'm just intimate with my understanding of not killing. I'm practicing not killing according to my understanding as well as I can.

[17:25]

There's another understanding of not killing, which is not mine. there's another understanding of taking refuge, which is not mine. It's the understanding of taking refuge, which is the one that I share with everybody and all Buddhists. Now, there's a tendency for that to be my favorite. I kind of like that. Now, that's the real me. Well, it is. That is the real way of taking refuge. The real way of taking refuge is the way of taking refuge which is the way that it's happening together with everybody and all the Buddhas. That's the real way. And there's some tendency to think, that's my favorite because it's so real and it's so enlightening. And it's the one that Buddha does together with all the other Buddhas and all the living beings. But the Buddha also practices together with the people who are doing the taking refuge in their own tight little way.

[18:36]

The one who's doing the Buddha, who's practiced taking refuge, I'm taking refuge this way, the Buddha's right there practicing with that person. And all the Buddhas are there practicing with that person. Even though that person doesn't think they're there, they're there. And they don't think, oh, the way this person's taking refuge is really kind of like... not so good. Sometimes the Buddhas are practicing together with somebody who's taking refuge in Buddha, who thinks that the way they're taking refuge in Buddha is really great. Sometimes the Buddhas are taking refuge together with somebody who's taking refuge in Buddha, and the person thinks, I don't do a very good job of taking refuge. Sometimes the Buddhas are taking refuge with somebody who doesn't esteem or despise the way they take refuge. They're just intimate with who they're taking refuge with. The Buddhists take refuge with that latter person and they're happy that that latter person is taking refuge that way because that person's on the verge of realizing the R. But they're practicing just as intimately with the people who are a little off track as with the ones who aren't.

[19:53]

And those of us who are a little off have just as many Buddhas around us as those of us who are kind of right on the money. But still, Buddhas cough up instructions and beam them down to people so they can hear them and manifest faith with teeth and lips and tongue and say, don't esteem or despise the way you're practicing. Become intimate with it. Don't esteem or despise the way of practice which you can't get a hold of or can't even imagine, except as another card for dragon. Become intimate with that way too. They talk like that, but they don't hold it against us. They don't hold it against us if we don't listen to them. They're still right there. Is that what they say? And if we accept, if we let go of our resistance, which means if we let go of holding on to our version of reality, so we can accept ultimate reality, well, then we can.

[21:09]

But if we can't let go, they don't hold that against us. So I guess you got it. I mean, I guess I said what I had to say. I could go over it again several times, but you probably got it, right? Is that clear? Everything I said clear? What do you mean by that? Let's see. Well, like right now I'm talking, okay? So... Being intimate with this talking is that in this, you know, can you hear my voice? Well, in the herd, there's just the herd. That's what I mean by intimacy.

[22:10]

So how would that translate to being intimate with the precepts? Tell me how the precepts manifest. Like, what is it? Thou shalt not kill. Did you hear that? Okay, well, is that a precept? We were recently told, actually, that that's not the Buddhist precept. That's the idea of Christian men that look like that. Okay. Well, did you just hear something? Yeah. Thou shalt. What did you hear? Thou shalt not kill. Okay. So do you want to hear something else besides that? Do I want to hear something? No. No. So in hearing that, if there's just what is heard there, that's all there is, that's intimacy. Why isn't that just intimacy with the heard?

[23:16]

It's not intimacy with anything. Because if it's intimacy with something, then it's not just in the herd, there's just the herd. Then it's in the herd, there's you intimate with the herd. But it's so intimate, there's not you in addition to the herd. If you want to trade that herd in for a different herd to be a representative of the precepts, that's fine. But For now, if you tell me what the precept you want to be, if you want to give me another precept, tell me. And when you tell me, when I hear him and when you hear him, in that hearing, for the herd to just be the herd, and in the herd, they're just the herd, that's intimacy. Not you and the herd. Not me and the herd. Not him and the herd. Just the herd. That's intimacy. Okay? Okay? I understand your example, but... So... Does everybody understand the example?

[25:01]

As an example of intimacy? Can you give another? In the scene, there's just a scene. Like right now, you see something, maybe? In that scene, there's a scene, right? In the seeing, there's just the seeing. That's intimacy. So in the seeing, there's just the seeing? Well, you could say seeing, but... As I continue to see, take the I out. Yeah, take the I out. When... for you, you know, when for you, you're a person, right, when for you, in the scene of just the scene, then you can't identify with it. Does that make sense? When in the scene, there's just a scene, you can't identify with it or disidentify with it.

[26:12]

If you can identify with it or disidentify with it, that's not intimacy. So... If I have any story about what I've seen, I'm not into it. The story you have about what you see is a story. Okay? In the story, there's just a story. When, for you, you still get to be a living creature. When, for you, in the story, there's just a story. Then you don't identify with the story. So there can be hearing, the heard, the seen, the smelled, the tasted and the touched and the cognized, like a story. There can be a story, and when in the story there's just a story, you can't identify with it. If there's a story plus you, that's not just a story, it's another story.

[27:16]

When for that story there's just a story of you and the story, then you can't identify with that, or disidentify with that. That's intimacy with that event. If it's a precept, and the precept comes to the eyes... Did you say there was intimacy with that event? Yeah, take it back. That's intimacy. If there's a precept, the precept appears as a sound, a smell, a taste, a touch, or a cognition, or whatever dimension that you're aware, that there's an awareness of the precept or an experience of the precept. When it's just that, then there's no identification with the precept, that's intimacy. And then the precept is just an opportunity for freedom from suffering. And it turns out that these precepts are given, can operate in both worlds.

[28:22]

They operate in the world where there's separation, and operate in the world where there's non-separation, where there's interconnectedness. But in the world of interconnectedness, they're just the way things are. In the world where there's separation, they're what people are trying to understand and realize and are struggling with. Because in the world of separation, it's almost as though you can go against these precepts. It's almost as though you can fail at them and violate them. But in the realm of interdependence, there's no way to violate them. They are describing that world. But in both worlds, intimacy, there's no identification with whatever we're working with. Did you have your hand raised, Mikhail? Yeah. Maybe you said what I wanted to say, kind of. It seemed to me that there exists intimacy at different levels, and we talked a lot about this level of ultimate reality where in what we hear there's only the poet, and in the scene there's just a scene.

[29:37]

In the scene there's just a scene. In the scene there's a scene, and so you often... you're often saying that to work in the art, it is important to be grounded in the relative truth. So I was just wondering whether intimacies on different levels, and that we have maybe no other choice than to be first intimate with our separation, which means not being intimate with the sea and the sea, or the flow of the river. And that... And that may create a little bit of confusion, or people don't understand that. Should I try to understand what you said or should I say something which might be helpful?

[30:45]

I mean, I didn't quite follow what you said and I could go back and try to get it or I could say something which might be helpful. It'll take a long time, I think, maybe to go back over everything you said. What do you want me to do? Only one way will be helpful? Well, one will be faster than the other. Whatever. I thought you said that to say in the herd, train yourself such that in the herd, they're just the herd. I thought you said that that was the ultimate. Yes. That's not the ultimate. That's the conventional. You know, there's a herd, there's an object out there. When you're training yourself, you have an object, something is heard.

[31:55]

So you train yourself so that what is heard is just a herd. That's a training for someone in the ordinary world where you're hearing things and at first you hear them as outside yourself. Does that make sense? So when you first hear a sound as outside yourself, there's some identification or disidentification with that sound. An identification right there. Well, you say the sound is yours or not yours. You say the sound's inside or outside. You say you're connected or disconnected. You say that was my voice or not my voice. You say that was your voice or not your voice. Some sense of self-reference is there with the object. The object is outside, is external to me.

[32:56]

That's a sense of identification. Positioning relative to it, that's the normal conventional world. And you can say, well, Reb's voice is... I hear Reb's voice, and everyone can say, yeah, that's his voice. So there's some identification there. But in the herd, just being the herd, the identification gradually drops away, and there's just the herd. You wouldn't call that agni? When you no longer identify, okay? then that becomes like the gate to understanding what it means not to separate or connect with something. So when you no longer identify, then you understand the ultimate. But in the training, at the beginning in the training, you can still be dealing with the relative. So when you become intimate in the relative world,

[33:59]

In other words, when you're intimate, you're no longer identifying with your experience, there's just your experience, then you enter the ultimate. So in that example, you train yourself in the conventional relationship with sounds and smells and tastes and so on, and when you realize intimacy, you enter into the ultimate reality of your experience. I understand, and yet, did I understand that there is even intimacy already with the relative truth? That's what you said? Yes. Intimacy with the relative goes with intimacy with the ultimate. That's why he says, don't esteem or despise the relative, don't esteem or despise the ultimate.

[35:08]

We need the ultimate, but the ultimate depends on the relative. Intimacy, if we aren't intimate with the relative, then intimacy with the ultimate is, you know, could even be dangerous. I like to go around and think, you know, I'm I'm interdependent with this skunk. Do you know skunk? So then you might get too close to skunk and... Or I'm interdependent with this truck or this cliff. So intimacy with the cliff in the ordinary sense will protect you from getting in trouble with the dreaming of the ultimate, which is not based on the conventional, and getting hurt. So you have to have both.

[36:16]

Yes. Yes. I feel like my question is kind of a different style car going the same place. So I feel like what you're talking about, I'm sure you disagree, but I feel like what you're describing as training is actually like we're asking what actually goes on in each moment. So I guess I kind of carefully have this feeling like, well, sure, co-horizing is not something to pick out, like that chalkboarded thing, I mean, co-horizing is just like pretending co-horizing, whatever, everything. And so intimacy is like... A dependent co-horizing heat has just arisen. Is it getting hot? Yes, it is. Did we have a pinnacle rising window also?

[37:22]

Excuse me. So, you know, in the same sense that one could look through the eyes of reality, through our relative eyes, and get a glimpse of the medical horizon, I think that's the feeling that I'm getting from your description of this training of how to become intimate. But I think that, like, for me, it has a feeling of pointing at the moon, pointing at the reflection of the moon in the water. You know, like, you're pointing at the moon, but, you know, is that no real difference from what's actually going on? It's like saying, this guy's walking down the road and you tell him to go train and walk it.

[38:23]

But all he does is keep walking. And that's his training. You just keep doing what you're doing and that's your training. But I feel like there's some looting going on here that that it's something different from what we're already doing. Like, as though I can sit here and become intimate with Rev, just by looking at Rev. Like, the further I get sucked into the fact that I'm looking at Rev, the more it'll make me realize the emptiness of that, that actually is it. That's my personal feeling. We'll pass it. I thought I heard you say something like, if somebody's walking down the road, I'm saying they should do something different than walk down the road.

[39:24]

Did I get that wrong? Did I get that wrong? Did I get that wrong? What did you say? You said I was saying somebody's walking down the road and I'm telling them to do something different from walking down the road. You got it wrong. What did you say? I said, so I'm walking down the road, right? Yeah. And you tell me to train in walking down the road, right? I didn't tell you to do that, did I? I'm using a metaphor for what you said. You said training in intimacy, right? Yeah. Okay. So training in intimacy. And I'm saying that we're already intimate. I'm saying that the description of intimacy... Okay, you're saying you're already intimate. ...relative reality, that's ultimate. Okay. I think you're right. We're already intimate. Okay. That's what I wanted to know. Are we already intimate, you mean? That's the ultimate truth.

[40:27]

We're already intimate. So both you're describing ultimate reality and offering a way to see ultimate reality, but I think... No, I'm not saying you can see ultimate reality. You can't see ultimate reality. Offering the gate to the ability to realize ultimate reality. Yeah. But I think... Which is already what's happening. It's already going on. Okay? I agree with that. It's already... It's what's already happening. Okay. Okay? And when it's realized, although it's already what's happening, it's possible that you haven't realized that yet. You haven't understood that. You haven't understood what's already happening, right? And if you don't, then you're unhappy. But ultimately, and also right away, right now, ultimate reality is what's actually happening. So contemplating that is not like looking at it.

[41:29]

It's like having an undefiled attitude towards whatever you're experiencing. And having an undefiled attitude towards whatever you're experiencing then opens the door to realizing what's already going on. Which includes that the relative truth is appearing and the ultimate truth is already happening but it doesn't appear and disappear. It's only because we mess with what's happening relatively that we obscure the realization of what's actually happening. So the training is to stop defiling your sensory experience to stop interjecting or adding and subtracting to what's going on, to stop identifying and disidentifying with what's happening.

[42:36]

That's the training, in intimacy with everything. Yes? So I have a question too. has to do with your answer to question, which confused me. So I don't know if I can say it, but it feels very important to try to say it. So I heard this teaching of ,, so it's just the continues, finally ends, and this is the end itself. So what confuses me is that you say, you teach, this is the entry gate into ultimate reality. Because then I wouldn't understand teaching of the earth as just earth, as actually being the end of suffering.

[43:39]

So my question, I think, is what else is there? This is the end of suffering. What else is there? In the end of suffering, what else is there? Let me try again. I guess I would put the opinion that to train, to realise the end of suffering. That's it. That's it. So why do you call this stage, let's say, an entry into ultimate reality? I'm going to say I've got all. You don't understand why I would call the end of suffering the entry into ultimate reality? Is that what you're saying?

[44:44]

Is that what you're saying? Is that what I feel? This is more approachable to me. I think what I did not understand is that you said the teaching of is just , is just this, et cetera. I heard something like it is only the entry gift. What I understood with your teaching, this is the only subject, period. But when you're chanting the scripture, don't stop at the periods. This is the beginning of the joyful practice of the Buddha way, is that you enter into this actuality of, you know,

[45:47]

infinite interdependence and love, which just happens to be the end of suffering. But the end of suffering is kind of like, just kind of like something that he said it was. But really it's the door to practice of the Bodhisattva, of the Buddhists. The Buddhists, they already ended suffering, they already got it together, now they're on the job. doing this thing of practicing with us. That's mostly what they're doing is practicing the sentient beings. They already realized the way and then they went to work. So when you do their job and complete it then you can go to work with them which is actual reality is that you're working together with everybody. But before you can realize that you kind of have to let go of this thing about me and my experience and me here and you over there and something in between. You have to kind of like let go of that. And one of the ways to let go, besides just letting go, if you can get away, if you can just let go, you know, kind of like you got a sensation there, like you got a color, and you're kind of like holding on to the color.

[47:01]

You let go of the color, right? You're on a color cliff. You know, I got to have this color. You're on a smell cliff, or you're on a touch cliff, or a taste cliff. and you let go of the cliff so you can accept suchness, the way things are. And that's it. That's the great death. Dead, suffering. No more suffering. But then, after that, you're supposed to come back to life and go to work. Bender, go to work. You still get to be Bernt Bender and everything. I don't know if you have a new Buddhist name or something. But basically, you go to work then. That's when you have the real enjoy of the Bodhisattva practice and really do the Buddha's work. I think what confused me is that I heard you say According to you, the first and second noble truth pertain to conventional reality, while the third and fourth pertain to ultimate reality.

[48:18]

Is that right? No. That's not wrong. You quoted me right. I mean, what I said was wrong. The ultimate reality is, you know, nirvana has an end and there's a way which is the end of suffering. Suffering has an end, that's nirvana. There's an extinction of suffering and there's a way of life which is extinction of suffering. There is that style of life. Okay? Those are the second two of the Four Noble Truths. That's Ultimate Truth. Okay? Does she smell? Yeah, the dogs do that. I mean, they grew up with dog smell. You got a strong one there? In the smell, was it just the smell? In the smell, was it just the smell?

[49:20]

At least for her it was. Right, Nancy? Can I just hear you say that the 34 four-level truths are ultimate? Is that what you're saying? Yeah. So you're saying that the path to the end of suffering, which is the four... Well, you know, I said it a little differently there. Actually, most people translate in the early texts that the path is the path to nirvana. But I say the path is the way of freedom. That's what I just said just a minute ago. Although in the early text it does say it's the path to nirvana, which doesn't sound ultimate. But anyway, it's the perspective of the Buddha. The Buddha can see the end of suffering, can see the way that is the end of suffering. But the way is the end of suffering. It's not the way to the end of suffering. I think it is the end of suffering.

[50:22]

I think that's the style of life which is called freedom from suffering. And that's the point of view, from the point of view of freedom, things look like that. But it's not a period there. That's just like the beginning of Buddha's life. That's just go to work. So, you know, nirvana is where you, like, go to work. And the main thing you do in nirvana is say, thank you very much, I've got to go back to the world. And, you know, tell other people about this. So you give up nirvana. You don't hang out there. You don't attach to it. But it is the ultimate situation. Yeah? When you come back to the world, do you suffer again? Well, you know, whatever, man. If it helps people, no problem. You feel pain? You mean to get deluded again? Is that what you mean? That kind of pain?

[51:26]

Do you start seeing yourself as separate from other people? Well, that's a good question, too. It wasn't what I meant, but I'd like to hear the answer to that, too. Um... Actually, I guess it is the same question, yeah. Well... I'm not sure, you know. Some people say that actually at a certain stage of development you cannot even, like... What's the right word? You can't even pull off the sense that somebody's out there anymore. But even while you still can think, sort of like, looks like somebody's over there, you're just, you're really not fooled by that at all. You really do not act like they're over there. I mean, you act like they're just like your eyeballs. and you really do love them with no attachment, or no attachment or separation. You really, like, let it, let the herd be the herd, and then you blossom in that relationship.

[52:29]

But some people say at a certain level of development, you can't even, like, come up with, like, any sense of something out there. But I don't think you go back, like, and thinking that, really believing that there's a substantial separation. No. There's something outside, I think, that she senses. There's something out there. Something that she senses. Yeah. Probably something that she smells that we can't smell or hear. In what you were just saying about the Buddhas and the end of suffering being just the beginning, it somehow in me raises a sense of like... I don't know. When you say you get to go and play with all the Buddhas, it sounds like there's some cool place where all the Buddhas are hanging out, you know, doing Buddha stuff that we don't understand, you know, but...

[53:38]

I should say that I, in my deluded state, can't conceive of. But then you said a minute later that actually what they do is they get to this cool Buddha place and immediately leave. But anyway, what's up at this cool Buddha place? You are up at the cool Buddha place. You are what's up at the cool Buddha place. All the Buddhas are hovering around you. You are their life. At whatever stage of development you are, you're their life. That's what they are. They're not at least a bit separate from you. No separation between you and all Buddhas. And all Buddhas have already attained the way, have end suffering, have completed the path, they got it down, And the Buddha, but the Shakyamuni Buddha, he said, you know, and that's one of the things about, excuse me, he said, we say, we heard him say, you know, we hear that he said, when I understood this, when I understood this is suffering, this is the cause of suffering, this is the end of suffering, this is the path, I understood, as it really is, this is the cause of suffering, this is suffering, this is the end, this is the path.

[55:04]

When I understood that, I was like, you know, really, my heart was like, I was content. Really. I was okay. That truth, like, ended suffering for me. But the Buddha said that. That way of talking has led some people to put a period at the end of that. Okay? People telling that story of what Buddha said, sounds like Buddha finished the job then, but he... There's another story. Another story is, that's when he started... He was a Buddha then. Yeah. He was happy. Yeah. He was free. Yeah. He was great. Yeah. But then something else started happening. And that is he started to like do this thing which he never even thought he was going to do called teaching Dharma. And so Some versions of the path is that's the end of the story on Buddha, on Buddha stuff, is that he does that. The other story is that's just the beginning of the complete fulfillment of Dharma, which is when Buddha comes and meets somebody else and they also realize it through that relationship.

[56:10]

That's the full thing of the Buddha. That's the real Buddha land. That's what the Buddhas are doing, is that they're coming into the world to teach us And when we learn, that's when the real stuff is happening. That's the real happiness that they're here for. They are just concerned with us doing that, but then they want us to also then go beyond that and have us also then not hang out and sort of like indulge in our freedom and happiness, but do this more wonderful thing of the Buddha job is to come and be together with everybody else. Okay, so then following that, I've often heard it said around here that Shakyamuni Buddha, at his death, that he wasn't returning. He was a non-returner. I can't remember the term, but he was done. He was an arhat. He was an arhat. He was going to check out, and some people say that Shakyamuni Buddha...

[57:11]

is not around anymore. He did such a good job, he didn't think he had to be around anymore. So, what does that mean? Let's say that I were to become a Buddha in this lifetime. That would be pretty good. As it is now, I seem to perceive things in a number of different ways. Yes. But say then I get to the end of my life and I become this Buddha and I die. Okay. Yeah. So then what? What happens to the perception? Some Buddhas come back. Shakyamuni, the word on Shakyamuni is that Shakyamuni didn't come back. Okay, so didn't come back. But you can be a Buddha but not be Shakyamuni. But, so, let's say I was following his model, and I was knocking back.

[58:14]

You should check out with some other Buddhas before you follow his model. Okay? Don't wait to your next lifetime to do the thing that he did of making more Buddhas before you split. Okay? Okay. Because that's scary. Make some more Buddhas before you leave. And then, ask those other Buddhas if you should not come back. First of all, ask if you can leave. They'll probably ask you not to leave. That's one of the things that we're supposed to do is not tell Buddhas, please don't leave. Please don't leave. I know you want to, but don't. And then we've got to get some Buddhas there to talk to you about leaving and see what's the reason for not coming back. You have to make a good excuse. And you should be in a good position to make a good excuse for being a Buddha. I guess my question is maybe just more sort of like curiosity, like, just like, so what happens to that perception that up to then was known as Shakyamuni Buddha?

[59:17]

But he, you know, anyway, he was such an excellent Buddha. I don't know. Maybe he just didn't, he didn't feel like, couldn't follow his own act. I don't know what the problem was. But anyway, a lot of other Buddhas come back. supposedly. But Shakyamuni Buddha didn't say that everybody gets reborn. He said there's rebirth, but he didn't say everybody is going to get reborn. He didn't say, I'm going to get reborn. In the vast story of the universe, it can sometimes happen that somebody won't get reborn. And there's a story about him that he didn't. Now, the Lotus Sutra, the story the Lotus Sutra says about Shakyamuni is that he, they tell the story about the teacher who gives his, well, the doctor who gives medicine.

[60:19]

And he says, okay kids, take the medicine. And I'm kind of like, I've got to go to the next town to help those people. And he leaves home, and the kids don't take the medicine. As a matter of fact, they eat a lot of Halloween treats and get really sick. And they're so sick that they can't even remember the medicine that their dad, the doctor, left for them. So he sees they're not taking the medicine, so then he sends word back to them that he's dead. And in their grief... they kind of snap out of it and their mind's clear and they remember the medicine and they take the medicine. And when they take the medicine, he comes back. So in one story about Shakyamuni Buddha is that he had to die because if he didn't die, some of us wouldn't take his medicine.

[61:22]

And if he's going to be reborn, then he's going to be back like in 49 days, you know, and then a few years later we're going to have him like as a little Buddha to, you know, take care of. He says, I'm not coming back until everybody takes the medicine. But when you take the medicine, then he does come back. You'll see Shakyamuni. When you take Shakyamuni's medicine, you'll see Shakyamuni. But until everybody takes the medicine, he's gone. We're not going to get him back because it's possible some people Even with Suzuki Roshi, you know, small-scale Buddha, right? Some people wouldn't practice when he was around. They just sort of, like, enjoy the vibes, right? But then when he died, some people had to start practicing because they didn't have the enjoyment of having their teacher around to make practice fun. Like, oh, Suzuki Roshi's going to Zendo. Let's go to the Zendo. Oh, Suzuki Roshi's being friendly. Let's be friendly. Siddhikarishi's not hating people.

[62:26]

Let's not hate people. But then he's gone. Now you've got to, like, not hate people without that nice example, cute example. Well, it's much harder. But that's what it takes. You know, you can't... So, that's one story about why Shakyamuni Buddha went away, is that he had to get everybody to practice. And that's in the Lotus Sutra. Lotus Sutra says he died, he didn't really die, Buddhas don't really die, but they die, they get born to help people, they come and say, hi, hi, Four Noble Truths, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, sit still, here's the precepts, and everybody says, okay, fine, they do that, and they get the Buddhas. But there's some other people who won't even practice when the Buddhas are going high. So then they die, and then those people practice too. They don't really die, they don't really get born, but they do both those tricks to get people to practice. Some people get people to practice by being born, some people get people to practice by dying. So there's two of the techniques Buddhas use to get people to practice.

[63:30]

And then living in between also, they have things that they do between those two things. Okay? So he did the both of them, but not really. And then when you practice his way, you'll see Shakyamuni Buddha will be right in front of you all. He'll be right there teaching the Lotus Sutra. That's what he said in the Lotus Sutra. Do the practice and you'll realize Shakyamuni Buddha never really left. It's just kindness of the Buddhas that they come and go. So now, actually, if you want to go and you think it would help us to be all grief-stricken when you leave, then we'll really practice, okay, you can go. But if you think you're going will not encourage us, then stick around. Encourage us the way you're already encouraging us until that time. Well, I thought it would be time, we should stop now because it's past 8.30, but... since Klaus is asking a question.

[64:34]

And this is the last day that Klaus before he's a head monk. Maybe you should ask a question because this is your last day before you have to do this job. Are you going to do this job, by the way? Are you going to accept this job? I have to tell you that tomorrow morning. The question I have is, do Buddhas arise as part of codependent arising? Do they arise already for the world? That's right. There's no Buddhas except that we ask them to come. And the way we ask is we go, are we? I hate you. You rat pink. And then that makes Buddhists come. Buddhists say, oh, this looks like a job for Buddha. Then they have people. But if nobody's acting like that, there's no Buddhists.

[65:35]

We don't need Buddhists except because we've got the people who need Buddhists. There's no Buddhists out there. That's why Buddhists are right there all around David and Jeremy. Because... Get in there. Get in there. It's the three...

[65:50]

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