Tonight I would like to relate these precepts to the story, the Zen story which we began to study last Monday, which is, the name of the story is Cloud Cliff sweeps the ground. And do some of you know that story? Can you say it? One day, Cloud Cliff was... You missed something there. Try it again. Are you going to say the Chinese or English of the names?

[01:06]

Chinese? Easier? Okay. Please. You should know there's one who's not busy. What is this? What is this? Would you mind doing that one more time? In the end, unless we leave it around, thou was said to this way.

[02:12]

In the end said, you should know there is one that was not this way. Thou was said that never to take with those. One version is, Dawu immediately stopped. Another version is, he shook out his sleeves and departed. I guess those monks, when they shook out their sleeves, I think they were the gesture of, I've had enough of this or something like that, and departed. Okay. Are these two people, these two monks, are they close to each other? Brothers. Brothers, yeah.

[03:13]

maybe biological brothers, blood brothers, and also dhamma brothers. Very close. But also each has its own position, right? There's a difference. I'd like to relate this story to these precepts. Or... Yeah. So what I would suggest is that on one level, We are, like the great ancestor yin-yang, we are busy. We are sweeping the ground. Another way you could say that is, we are violating the precepts. our friend, brother or sister come by and they say to us, you are violating the precepts.

[04:18]

And we say, we don't say, no, I'm not violating the precepts. We say, you should know that there's one who does not violate the precepts. Then our brother or sister say to us, then are there two moons, two truths, one world where you're violating the precepts and one world where you don't violate the precepts? We raise our action or the instrument of our actions. instrument of our busyness, the instrument of our violating, and we say, which moon is this? Is this the moon of violation or non-violation? Our friend then walks off. So I propose to you that there are two levels of our mind or our life.

[05:22]

Like in this story, there is a busy level, And on the busy level, I just propose to you to consider that on the busy level, on the level of our busy mind, our mind which, for example, makes objects, the level of our mind which has objective knowledge, makes objects, sees things outside itself, that mind is always busy, is always disturbed. And that disturbance is the violation of these precepts. And every violation that you think of, that you think is a violation, or that anybody else thinks is a violation, I propose, comes from this basic disturbance. Whether anybody else says you're violating the precepts or not, if you were awake, I propose this to you, if you were awake, or I'd rather say the Buddhas say, when they look at that mind which is agitated by being caught in his busyness, the Buddhas say, this mind that I have is the violation of the precepts.

[06:34]

And the Buddhas see that this violation is going on, I would suggest that they say it's going on all the time. At the same time, the Buddhas have realized the mind that does not in the slightest bit create any objects, is not the slightest bit disturbed, is not the slightest bit busy, and does not violate these precepts. If you say to the Buddha, you're too busy, the Buddha does not deny this observation. But you might point out that there's something that's not busy, that's something that doesn't violate it. And if I tell this story, then right away some people want to know, well, how do I get in touch with, how do I realize this one that doesn't violate the precepts, the one that's not busy?

[07:48]

Oh, I didn't finish the story. And are these two separate things? And the Buddha would then do whatever, speak, raise her hand or whatever, and say, which is this? And doesn't answer the question, but wonders, which is this? Is what's happening right now the violation or non-violation? And so again, someone might ask, well still, how do I realize this unbusy one, this non-violating mind, this mind that is in accord with the precepts? How do I realize this in my life? And I guess I recommend that by admitting and studying and being aware of the busy mind, even worshipping, in a sense, the busy mind, even worshipping and being very kind to this transgressing mind, that the non-transgressing mind is realized.

[09:17]

It doesn't then become an object It isn't like something, again, that you see, because bringing the mind that doesn't transgress the precepts up into an object realm simply mixes it up in a realm in which we do violence to our whole being. It is never that kind of thing. And yet, the person who is willing to admit that she's human completely and constantly driven by empty thoughts and thus violating these precepts, this person brings this unbusy one alive in her life. That's basically what I have to say. And I don't want to, I'm not proposing this as anything other than my understanding of these precepts and my understanding of this story.

[10:33]

And I think this story is about our meditation practice and is about these precepts. I hope sometime to be able to go through each of the ten great precepts and point out how it is that if we look carefully, we can see that we regularly violate them. As I mentioned before, killing, if you kill something, If you do the thing called killing, that violates the first precept, which is called not to kill. But also to do the thing called not killing also violates the Buddhist precept of not to kill. Because not killing, to do that, to think that, is also an agitated, busy and violent mind.

[11:37]

And the human mind cannot avoid either killing or not killing. It has no choice. It goes one extreme to the other. But there's a mind simultaneous with the human mind which is exactly the nature of the human mind, which never errs and never kills or doesn't kill. In other words, never violates this precept. I think this story's a little misleading, because at first they tell you he's sweeping. Yes. And then next it's like, too busy. So without any other information, naturally you're thinking, the sweeping. So what makes Daowu say, too busy, just because he's sweeping?

[12:43]

In some ways they've left out part of the story. And what makes you think that he is too busy? What makes me think he is? I mean, yeah. Looking at myself. And from what I've heard of other people. Then you're saying everyone is too busy. So far as I know. Oh. So one way to read the story is Da Wu walks along, sees his brother. You don't know what's happening with other people. So actually it's kind of rude to tell somebody else they're busy, right? Or too busy. It's kind of rude. These people are very intimate, I feel. So he could have been standing under a tree and could have said, I'm busy. Definitely. So a little misleading. How so? I mean, just because they're picturing him sleeping, which could be a busy activity. Right. It's a little misleading.

[13:46]

He could have been sitting, like this. His brother could have come by and said, too busy. In other words, in your motionless sitting, you're too busy. As a matter of fact, in the Vimalakirti Sutta, Is it Shariputra that's sitting in meditation? And Vimalakirti comes up and says, you think that's immobile sitting? You think that's upright sitting? Same, same comment. You think that's meditation? You're too busy. Your mind is still involved in subject-object. You're violating Buddhist precepts. And you think you're a monk? So what does he say? What is the upright meditation? Remember what he says? It says it's not pure. It's not pure. What is pure meditation? In that case. Well, what?

[14:55]

It's to be involved in the busy world. He said to be involved in ordinary affairs. To be involved, in other words, to admit that you're involved in the ordinary affairs of the mind and yet not forsake the mind of nirvana. Not forget the busy one, the unbusy one. Completely admit that you're a human being involved in the worldly affairs and don't forget all day long, whether eating, sewing, cooking, Always recognize the unbusy one. Now, the story may be misleading, but maybe that's just what happened, unfortunately or unfortunately. It might have actually just happened that way. I don't know. But you're right. He could have been working in the kitchen. He could have been sitting still. Just so happens he was sleeping. But in another sense, Zen monks, when they're sleeping, that's considered to be, you know, what do you call it?

[15:56]

What's the word? Bonafide meditation practice in a Zen monastery. So, you know. you should be all right, right? You should be safe. And so... Yeah, Norman? Yeah, I'm studying the Shantideva and text, and there's a story there about Suizing that probably has an echo in this case. And the story goes, it's about one of the Arhats who was a real Kami. And no matter what kind of practice is Buddhadeva, he could never... remember anything, you forget immediately. You know, if you try to meditate, you forget cup one, you know, forget the breath next, cup two, you forget. Any kind of practice that the Buddha gave, he could never master. So finally the Buddha said, why don't you sweep? Sweep this half of the room, sweep the dust over that. Oh, did that happen? Nope. You know, when he went with that, you know, sweep the dust from this half of the room over the other side. So he did that. for many, many, many years. That's all he did.

[17:00]

I remember that much. And eventually, he realized that, you know, he was just moving the dust back and forth, and that it didn't matter which side of the room the dust was on, and he became enlightened. So it's interesting to think of that story and apply it to this gig. Exactly. Because I think it's quite relevant. Yes, exactly the same story. So that's what we're doing all day. We're violating the precepts over to this side and then we violate them back to the other side. And eventually we realize it doesn't matter whether we violate them or not violate them. Both of them are not the point. It doesn't mean you should violate them. It doesn't mean you should violate them. You shouldn't violate them and also you shouldn't not violate them. You should realize Buddha's mind. Meantime, we're going to keep violating them and not violating them. Part of us is going to forever violate the precepts. We do not violate them.

[18:01]

All the time. That's why we let you stay here. Yes. Does Buddha worship and show kindness to the shit-shell lord or the sweeper? Yes, right. That's the story, right? You know the story of the Buddha's son being lost, the Buddha's daughter being lost? You know that story in the Lotus Sutra? Tell them about it. the son takes for a little walk one day and he gets lost he gets lost for a long time and finally he wanders back into his home into where his parents live his parents, the Buddha see him and of course this is their son they love him already he's a shit shoveler but is his

[19:19]

his task, what Buddha worships? Or does he just show kindness to this person as a way to help them realize that shit-shoveling is ultimately what they're all about? No, the Buddha already has been worshiping his own shit-shoveling. Now it's for this guy to worship his shit-shoveling, which he does. He thinks it's good work for him for a long time. He does it sincerely. He thinks, this is appropriate work for me. But sometimes Buddhists think that they shouldn't, they should be doing something better than what they're doing. That, for example, they shouldn't be, you know, they should not violate this precept. Okay, that's right, they shouldn't violate this precept, but then you switch over to not violating precepts. Well, then they think, well, then now I'm not violating the precept. Well, they're still violating the precept. But you should honor, well, maybe I shouldn't say worship. I'll take it back. Maybe you should just... not despise and not esteem, but just become completely one with your sleeping.

[20:22]

Completely admit you're sleeping and you're sleeping. Okay? I think joy and the sun in the ship, gentlemen. Yeah. They kind of describe themselves. Right. They're together. Two chapters. Right. This is in chapter two. Chapter, what chapter is it? Three. On faith and understanding. Thank you, Gloria, for pointing out the story. Anything else about this? We'll continue to study this case 21 indefinitely. And I'd like to go over these precepts and point out the teaching of how it is that if you study them thoroughly, you can see that it's not just once in a while that we violate them, that the nature of our mind is fundamentally against these precepts.

[21:34]

By nature of our mind, I should say there's a busy mind. Bodhidharma says, by the way, about this first precept that the subtle, the nature, the self-nature is subtle and mysterious. In the realm of everlasting dharma, not giving rise to the concepts of killing is called the precept of not killing. There is a mind which doesn't even give rise to concepts of killing, and it's present with us all the time. Even so, in the ordination ceremony it says, in the part about confession, it says, even after becoming, attaining complete perfect enlightenment, will you continue this practice of confession. Even after attaining complete perfect enlightenment, you still continue to confess. And it says that in some versions of the ordination ceremony, three times. So we understand that even after Buddhahood, there is confession of this ancient twisted karma.

[22:45]

So before enlightenment, there's confession, there's admission, and after enlightenment. Just like before enlightenment, we eat, and after enlightenment, we eat. So by studying the nature of our mind, we're also studying precepts, would you say? Yeah. Or maybe I wouldn't say this nature of our mind, maybe I'd just say studying the surface of our mind, just the surface waves of our mind, where there's constant transgression. The surface of our mind which says, you know, we're not all connected. This, everything I'm doing is real. I know what you write. You're wrong, or vice versa, or any opinions at the surface of our mind. Studying the surface of our mind reveals our whole mind.

[23:48]

But our whole mind doesn't come up then and become another surface phenomenon. The nature of mind illuminates the surface and releases us from the surface. And which moon is this? Is this the surface or is this the bottom of the ocean? Which is it? The monks did not say which it was. They just stopped talking for a while. Any other questions about this? Can you have a surface without a bottom or a bottom without a surface? Again, I have never seen such a thing. So, maybe not. That applies to the oceans and applies to people. In the world we live in, the oceans are like us.

[24:55]

And we're like the oceans. If there's any bystanders who don't agree, please, you're welcome to come forward. Any questions about this? Was there a hand back there? I don't know. Who is it? What's your name? Carol. In the story, would you mind standing up, Carol? I can't see your face. Oh, hi, Carol. Yes. Did it matter? Well, I don't think he was actually trying to... I think it was a rhetorical question.

[26:01]

I don't think he really thought it was one moon or the other. I think he was pointing out that these moons are non-dual. What side of the room is the dust on? Structurally it seems different. It seems like that would be, I would put that more in parallel to the realization that the monk had finally. Yes. What's your name? Olga. Olga? Looking at this story through my own glasses, would it be correct to say that as I walk the path, it doesn't really matter what I do, as long as I do it properly and wholeheartedly, as good as I possibly can, always understanding and realizing that this is but an illusion,

[27:14]

and what is beyond it or after it is the real world, and I'd like to concentrate and focus on that. No, I don't agree. It does matter. Everything you do does matter. So I wouldn't say that it doesn't matter what you do. It does matter what you do. In fact, I would say everything you do is extremely important. So it's not so much that it doesn't matter what you do, but rather that no matter what you do, it does matter. And if you feel that way, then the second part of what you say applies. Namely, that if you realize that everything you do is important, then you give your whole heart to each thing. And then this realization comes. And then you'll realize how extremely busy you are when you do things. Because you'll realize your busyness is worth your total attention. your total heart. But everything does matter.

[28:16]

And if we could be completely sincere about what we're doing, then we don't have to take things so seriously. So sincerity about what you're doing does not necessarily mean that you say that what you're doing is real. But to go around and say, this isn't real, is a kind of, what do you call it, denial of the fact that you think it is real. We do think that this stuff is real. We really do. Let's admit it. Our busy mind thinks this is real. This is the point that I was trying to make, is to understand the real is, the real real is behind what we consider real. So this thing between these two truths, or beyond it, If one truth is true and the other one isn't, so what's in between or what's beyond?

[29:18]

None of it can be real. What's beyond the two is their non-duality. We are in that shady, pretty country that really didn't give in and placed with the children of God's way. Things are not what they look like. I just, I don't know what I want to say now. Did you live with a shepherd who saw a woman who had fixed out her wool? I thought you were going to eat it while I'm gone, but you didn't tell me. And I thought you were going to eat it while I'm gone, but you didn't tell me.

[30:24]

And I thought you were going to eat it while I'm gone, but you didn't tell me. I thought you were going to eat it while I'm gone, but you didn't tell me. If you would like to have a copy of this, there are some on the table back there. That's a different material than this, so please help yourself. If you want the copy, please don't keep the copy of this. Do you have no idea? No idea. Since she comes, why doesn't she like it? Is it? No, I don't know.

[31:25]

No, I don't know. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. It's amazing. I must say, it's over five years. Yeah. That's it. It's something to do with you. Well, I call my mom and send her back out when I pick up the wine. That's the only way you're going to pick all those little ones up. Thank you very much. Thank you.

[32:38]

You have some sort of neuro-linguistic anchor to the word alcoholic or dysfunctional. To me, it's actually problematic. So I would suggest the word poet. Or some other word that didn't categorize people so much. Right. Such a negative connotation. The basic thing in this Zen business is that there's nothing to attain. Right? You can't... There's nothing to attain here. There's nothing to grasp. There's nothing to get a hold of. Right? You ever heard about that? Okay. Right. And then... And then when I say that, as soon as I say that, that becomes a kind of very basic insight in Zen practice. And then that gets made into something. Okay? Yes? Yes? So we have to watch out to substantiate or hypostasize language about alcoholism, language about dysfunctional, language about poet, language about fundamental insight into non-graspability, too.

[34:18]

What I'm specifically addressing my point to is a discussion we had about, well, what are you doing in this class, Reb? To paraphrase. We had the discussion of the line, still, if you remember. Well, what are you doing in this class? It seems like you're trying to solve these koans. No, I'm teaching a foreign language. And if we can learn to speak this language, we can speak it to one another to begin with. And maybe if we speak it to one another, we can speak it to other people out in the world. So to... used, I think, for this very important function in this foreign language class, the word alcoholic, to identify something that is going on that, to me, sounded like it had sort of a distracting element or a negative effect. It doesn't serve us well. Yeah, I don't, well, I don't think that we should then say that's what's happening. But I'm just saying that when people have feelings and are uncomfortable about something, there's some truth, there's some reason why they feel that way.

[35:25]

Now, the word they may use for why they feel that way may not really be the right word for them, but they should be able to express they feel this uncomfortable. And whatever word they come up with, they can come up with that word. The reality is they feel uncomfortable. And that's what I'd like you to surface. when you feel uncomfortable. It is. What? It is. It is. Yes, Lynn? I wanted to say that the way I perceived that when it said, have you been studying the way? Yes. To me, it was almost as if you were suggesting that you are separate from the way, and that is perhaps what sparked his ironic response, because he had seen that I am the way. Mm-hmm. That's right. Yeah. Yes. When you say that another language starts getting that way, my inner visualization of the conversation usually is,

[36:35]

sort of like an M.C. Escher painting. It offers different levels in all the different areas and there's a little bit of meanings or interpretations sitting on each one and my little fairy body sort of slides over to the one that fits what we're talking about at the moment. Sometimes the conversation gets so loose, so The words aren't carrying it. It's sort of the air in between the people speaking or carrying it. And if you're listening and trying to keep up with it, you're flipping from platform to platform to platform looking for it. You start getting a headache. And when I find out when I'm doing that, I just sort of float up there and look at all the platforms. My headache calms down. I find a spot there and I can go back to it. I guess I'm trying to say I sort of have a trust that we're not just speaking drunken gibberish here. We're not just batting words back and forth. Sometimes you might lose the track, but it's not that something negative or malevolent is out there or something to be afraid of.

[37:41]

We find a way to give if we just work. Well, you know, I'm glad you're in the room to say that. But I do not have faith that we're not speaking drunken, malevolent gibberish. I just don't have that faith myself. I don't believe that or disbelieve that. But I do not feel that I do not sort of say that's not what we're doing in here. Even if we are, it might be fine. Gibberish is sometimes fun. Even if it's fun, or even if it's not fun, I'm just saying that I don't believe that we're not doing that. I'm not carrying that one. But to have you in the class who's believing that that's not going on, or is trying to work yourself into a place

[38:48]

where you can believe that, okay, you are welcome to be here feeling that way. And I would suggest to you that because you're that way, you constellate somewhere in this room some dark evil forces. I'll make a little black square. But please, I mean, are you doing that work? You let somebody else... Do some other work. We have the whole world in this class because we have some people who are working on one thing or another. We have some people turning away from High states. Getting into high states and then turning away from them. But when you turn away from them, you constellate something else. We have some people having fun and breaking through brighter blocks. I haven't fun anymore. That was then. We have people... We have people constellating themselves.

[39:52]

So, but, you know, you can, you guys can clean this place up. Anybody who wants to clean this place up anytime can go right ahead and do it. You can move up to a level where you can realize that actually this situation is really immaculate and the rest of us can be dirty or we can all be dirty and then from that filth an extreme purity will be manifested from the utter and complete filth of each, of even one of us. Complete purity is manifested. But if we want to be goody-goodies, this can be the most evil room in the Bay Area, at least. Like right now, you know, because, I don't know, since it's not Sunday morning, right? So we don't have any competition. Maybe there's no place else. Like on Sunday morning, there's probably some churches where there's some real heavy-duty, goody-goody kind of imagining going on. Therefore, a deep evil is constellated by their ignoring their evil.

[40:59]

And all of them in the room feeling like, God, I better not feel any of that, because nobody else in here is. And ignorance, just pure ignorance of the truth of Zen, that can be happening in here too. A secure feeling. Just like, I know, even if I don't understand the language or I don't understand what's going on. It's okay. Yeah. So it's a good feeling just being your staff and for me not to understand and even I don't get it. It's okay. Yes. I get really confused about the stories when I don't... I mean, I suppose I should be okay to not get it at a certain level, but it pushes buttons in me, like the story that you said about the Zen master who kept sending the student away. And before you explained it, I thought, well, that's really cool. And so I don't know what to do with that feeling, but I think that that's really cool.

[42:02]

to do that. And then, you know, then you kind of like go, oh, you know, I guess I was wrong to think that that was really cruel. It was just the highest law in the kingdom. And I feel like they can't really trust my intuition on whether something is really cruel. Well, you know, that story, I told that story and I had Green Gulch on one Sunday and I knew if I told that that some people would have thought, well, this just sounds like abuse, you know. And, but the reason why I told the story was... that I was talking to Mel about this story, and he was saying how, in a way, you can have a whole Zen center or a whole community just so that one person like that guy could appear. One person who, not that you could be cruel to, but one person that you could do what is necessary in order to help him or her mature. It wasn't so much, and it even wasn't so much that the teacher was so loving as to be this cruel.

[43:09]

I don't know what to say about the teacher. All I can say is that the teacher was somehow a way for this guy to do something which a human being can almost never do. He did a phenomenal, the student was able to do something which almost none of us could ever do, and in the end the student became cruel. you know, the successor to that teacher, the one successor. Somehow, he was the only one that could do that and took the whole monastery and the teacher's whole life to provide what this guy needed in order to do this incredible thing. And at the same time, he was a nice guy in a way, too. You know, he was nice, tried to make good meals for the monks and all that. He was certainly not a wimp in the first place before he got to be. He was an exceptional person, but then when the teacher just And it wasn't like the teacher was being arbitrary either. The guy actually stole the food, you know, even though he had a good reason. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't that he did it wrong either. It's that he gave the teacher a chance to do this thing, right?

[44:12]

I don't know what to say. One of the dynamics in our practice is, you know, is one world where you try to be really careful and do everything according to the rules and, you know, be very mindful and thorough and all that. There's another world which is really mysterious and magical. And we have these two worlds and we don't get rid of one or the other. They work together, bouncing back and forth. In China, the country where Zen was born, we have this Confucian tradition and the Taoist tradition in the background of this Buddhist tradition. And Confucianism has these, you know, all these rituals and formulas and moral patterns and so on. And Taoism is very wild and free and iconoclastic. And that's in the background there.

[45:13]

And Zen inherits both of these traditions, plus has this basic insight of nothing to attain. And try not to make that into something, as I was mentioning before. So... And if there wasn't some other people teaching Buddhism in a way that you'd get a hold of, then it wouldn't be possible for me and you to have a class like this. There are other kinds of classes where you can, you know, which maybe are more... I don't know what you want to call them, but anyway, where... I don't think there's any classes that are going more into the mysterious side, but there's classes that are going more into the understandable side, or more into the human point of view side. So that fortunately there are classes like that, so that we can have a class like this, where we can explore whatever we're doing here. Which is always pushing on the limits of what we can stand here. I feel, some, I feel that. It started making me uncomfortable just a minute ago, because even though I've been really on tonight, most of the time, but then whenever you started talking about the disciple attaining something really superior, that made me feel like

[46:34]

A lot of people, I do this, they want to be the best. They want to be the best Buddhist, be that disciple who succeeds, overthrow the king. That competitiveness comes up in me sometimes because I forget sometimes that you don't have to be the best in order to have it. Right. You know, you can have it even if you're not succeeding, you know. But it's gone now, it went away. Well, you know, the word success is a real important word because usually with success, not usually, I should say usually with sex, but anyway, with success, often there is some kind of violence around that. Trappling on the underlings. Yeah, or or progress usually has a waste product So one way it's so what do you do in a case like that one way it's for void success That's one that's one route

[47:46]

especially if you tend to be violent with it, if you can't handle... Okay, I'm talking about being gifted, okay, intellectually or physically, where you're confident, you know you have that. You're not, like, avoiding competition, except whenever it gets to the point where maybe you have a streak of humanity and you feel like you're hurting people or they're hurting you because you get alienated from them. You don't know how to be with them. when you think that they hate you because they think you're better than they are? How do you tell the line? How do you be with people with a certain gift or whatever? This is a different subject slightly, but sorry. Yeah, it's different. It's related. Because you don't want to feel alienated either. Or you don't want to create a practice which is alienating. What's happening, Sister Moon?

[48:55]

I'm distracted. From what? What were you distracted from? What's happening right here? I'm wondering. I forgot. What is happening right here? I'd like to say something. I wonder if I'm the only one in the room. I think maybe I'm not. But I have very little interest in these koans, really.

[50:03]

They seem to me to go from boring to silly to mildly annoying to evil. And I come here for the interchange discourse. Anybody else feel that way? I thought that way about Facebook. So are these stories evil? Hmm? Are they what? Are these stories evil? Are these evil stories? Hmm? Yes? Well, I think they can be if you get into them as stories.

[51:08]

But in a way, whatever's happening now, no matter what it is, is form that I cannot know. And if I treat it that way, then it's not evil. You lost me. But did somebody fall in? Whatever's happening here in a lot of ways is the same, no matter what the topic is, because it's the stuff that's happening right now. And if I'm in a place like I may be one moment, but not the next moment, I can treat that as what's happening, and as you talked about last week, kind of just be at that real closely. Without regarding its content, in a sense. Like being with a statue of the Buddha. I can be with the topic of this conversation. Yeah. Is a statue of Buddha evil? It depends how I hold it, I think.

[52:12]

It can feel that way to me if I'm not into statues of Buddhas. How about if you were into statues of Buddha, then could it be evil? Yeah. Yeah. Either way. It's just a statue of Buddha. It doesn't feel good. Is it good? Yes. I did have something to say. Somewhere back in one of the other classes, way back when, you were talking about the koans and the interchanges. that you can't really see the Buddha way or have some sort of opening enlightenment without interacting with other people. And that's what I liked about reading these, is seeing the interchanges and knowing that it's those exchanges that moves you along and opens things up and opens you up, not just sitting by yourself.

[53:19]

Right. in isolation, trying to work on something. So that's what I appreciate about this. I just thought I'd say it because it was helpful when you had that discussion for me. And see, at the beginning of the story, Fa Yan was sitting by himself. I mean, he was by himself. That's where I could try that on. He's sitting by himself. This is like, you know, This is somebody who was really sitting by himself. He did that part. He did it so thoroughly that he forgot who he was. And then this person called Earth Wound comes over to this person who's sitting by himself completely, and then he goes and talks to him. And he says, where are you going? He's not going anyplace.

[54:20]

He's completely still. And the teacher says, where are you going? And he says, around on pilgrimage. Still completely staying home, but not responding. And what's the purpose of this? Every step of this story I propose to you is somebody completely still, Somebody else completely still. Somebody else completely still. Somebody else completely still. Stillness and then stillness. But first stillness and now another stillness reflects it. And this stillness reflects back again. That's one way to see what's going on here. And neither the teacher nor the student can understand without being still with what they are.

[55:22]

And it's very difficult for us to be still with what we are. almost all the time, it's very difficult. Once in a while, it seems easy, but then when it's easy, then we don't do it either because... No motivation. Right, exactly. I just came from being all by myself, you know, away from people, and I've been interested in this kind of stuff for a long time, but man, the lap of luxury turned me idle. Totally. And even though I had the opportunity to meditate as much as I wanted to, and I actually have gone to certain so-called high states that were very enjoyable and stuff, but there was no prod to keep... And every day and night is hella boring, you know? And you don't want to do this. It seems like too much trouble. But I think if I can make myself do it, I will probably be happier. So will we. Yeah. So how come these reflections have to speak?

[56:29]

Pardon? How come these reflections have to speak to each other? You mean why do they have to talk? They don't always talk. But in these stories they don't always talk either. Sometimes a guy picks up a piece of grass and sticks it down. But if I see you pick up a piece of grass, what I see there is a word. You don't see anybody except by a word. You see a word. In other words, everything you know, anything you know about in the realm of knowing, you know conceptually. Concepts are words. Concepts are community projects, community developments, like language. In fact, it is words. In the realm of seeing each other, meeting each other, there's words there. If there's not any words, then there's no bondage.

[57:33]

Without words there's no bondage, I propose that. You cannot tie yourself up without words. And you cannot release yourself without words. Words release us and words tie us up and words release us. So whether they're talking or not, anyway, the reflection is verbal. I mean, it is linguistic, it is conceptual. So when we sit by ourselves and when we sit still by ourselves, we sit still by ourselves and as much as we can, we sit still with our words. And when we do that thoroughly, then we walk to meet someone. And between this person being with her words and this person being with her words, between these two beings, is a connection.

[58:37]

And that connection is what will make these two beings become free, will help these beings become independent. The way we're built is you cannot become independent by yourself. You have to become independent through a connection. Because the one who gets independent is the one who's not just on one side of this relationship. The problem is that between these two words is a ocean of death, a sea of death, or an ocean of death. And these people have to dive in here and swim through this death to meet each other. Otherwise, you can have two good Zen monks completely owning up to the words that they're living with I'm depressed, I feel uncomfortable, I feel happy. I wonder if I should be doing something different from this. Can I be this way? Over here, being that way. And over here, being that way. That's as good as you can do by yourself.

[59:40]

That's good enough. That's your work. That's as much as you can expect of yourself. Except that you should walk this person to meet another person who's walking to meet another person. And then these two people have to dive into this depth. And then they meet. And through that connection, they understand the limits of what they could do by themselves. And then they're independent. I propose that as the model of liberation, complete liberation. Are you saying you can't get out of bondage without getting into bondage first? Yes, I would say that. But that is not a problem. Everybody is in bondage. i've never met anybody who doesn't have that problem except psychotics who refuse to admit that they're in bondage well neurotics refuse to admit it too but they they don't completely refuse to admit it they admit it a little bit and the more you admit it the the more you admit that you're in bondage the more you're doing your work of the more

[60:52]

the more you admit that you're in bondage, the stiller you become. And when you've admitted as much as you can that you're in bondage, then you should go meet somebody else who's admitting that she's in bondage. Two people who are honest. Two people who admit that they're completely trapped in words. Those people meet. And then they both have to jump into the water, into the darkness. The darkness of not knowing. The darkness of not knowing. But not from just sort of like lackadaisically hanging out somewhere in the neighborhood of your neurosis, but right on the mark of your own pain. You admit that, and from there you jump into it. You were talking about the darkness one time before, about sort of being in a suit with not knowing, all of us kind of rubbing around together.

[61:53]

And the universe created an objective reality, a way of reflecting back on itself. Talking about that. The universe provides an objective reality. Or experience is... What did you say? I remember when she was talking. I just wanted to do this. So when I was looking to you, you talked about two people reflecting and diving in. It just sort of, it seemed like, it gave me a sense of aliveness being that beingness and having an object to reflect on. And that's a sense of what I feel here for me. If I listen and try to put these thoughts into words, this language, if that's what that is that's going on for me, it's something to help focus some idea or some awareness I have that's kind of like a soup.

[62:58]

It takes form when I listen to everybody define it. It just kind of changes, and it goes on. But it pulls it into an objective place out here that I can look at from here. So that's what that seemed like. I want to tell you another story. I'm teaching a class in Berkeley, and we're studying a case which goes like this, which some of you have heard before. A monk named Virtue Mountain was visiting another monk named Dragon Pond, and he stood in attendance upon Dragon Pond until late in the night. Some people say, some versions of stories say, he sincerely questioned Dragon Pond. into late night.

[64:00]

And Dragon Pond said, it's getting late. Perhaps she should retire. So Virtue Mountain walked out of Dragon Pond's room and met darkness and said, it's dark out here. And Dragon Pond lit a candle for him, a paper lantern, and gave it to him. And just as he was taking the lantern, Dragon Palm blew out the lamp, and Virtue Mountain woke up. So there was darkness, and the teacher gave a light. And the student was about to take the light. Now there's light. The teacher blew out the light. The student was in darkness. And the student now entered the darkness and knew. First of all, the student was in the darkness. Then he got light. Then he entered the darkness again.

[65:03]

But this time when he entered the darkness, he woke up. So, again, I'm not telling you where the I of that story is, but I would propose one place the I of the story is is at the blowing out of the light. you can picture the place where the light gets blown out. You have a light, and you picture it getting blown out, and then see that darkness, the darkness before you can say what it is. Just when the light's blown out, picture that darkness that comes to you before you even can say it's darkness. There's a darkness that sneaks up on you, you know, gradually gets you open, a little dark. You've already got it. Then there's a light comes on, now the darkness. When the light is blown out, So in this story there's a kind of thing like that too. All these stories, there's a place where the light gets blown out. Where you face darkness. Where you face darkness before you make darkness into something.

[66:06]

As soon as you make darkness into something, you've got the light on again. Which is fine. But that's not the light we're looking for. We're looking for the light that comes on in the darkness. Darkness. And so what did the teacher do there? You know, how did he, what did he do? How did he help that person? He gave him one darkness, and he gave him another darkness, and that was enough under the circumstances. So there's a darkness in this story, too. And... Did he see that second darkness as darkness? Hmm? Did he see the second darkness as darkness? Well, you know, I don't want to say what he saw.

[67:11]

So it was a rhetorical question, I imagine. I'm just saying, you know, in that story, the eye is either... I think the eye of the story, for me, the eye of the story is darkness. But maybe the way to find the darkness, which is the eye of the story, not just the word darkness, but the actual darkness of the story, maybe the place to find it would be in the blowing out of the candle. If you can see the light of your discriminating mind blown out and just meet darkness... It's like having the rug pulled out. But that only works when you've got your feet on the rug. So, again, two people who have their feet on the rug both jumping into the darkness together. You also mentioned Dozan's five ranks when you were talking about darkness.

[68:14]

You did. Well, okay, I did. But you also talked about that type of darkness, right? Symbolic darkness? Well, this is symbolic darkness, too. This is a story about darkness. These are symbols of darkness to initiate us into our darkness, into the darkness of our mind. This happens in the last part of the story. So it would be like the fifth rank. It would be like the fifth rank, symbolized by darkness. No, I think in this story, the story about blowing the candle out, I think that the end of the story is the first or second rank.

[69:20]

Not the second. When he wakes up. First or second rank. And part of the reason why I think that, ladies and gentlemen, I will tell you next week why. I have to tell you more of the story to tell you why I know more of the biography of this guy about why I think it's only the first or second rank. It's in the... It's in the... It's in the Blue Cliff Record as Case 4. And it's in the book of... It's in the Mumon Khan, the Gateless Gate, Room 28. Deshan? Huh? Deshan. Deshan, yeah. It's called... It's called Dragon's Ponds, Far and Wide. After... After he woke up, he said... He bowed. And Dragon Pond said, What have you seen that you bow? And he said, From now on, I will never doubt... The words of old teachers who are renowned far and wide.

[70:26]

So I don't know what to do now. We're on case 20. So I don't know what to do. What do you think? Should we go to 21? Yeah, you go to bed. Definitely. Want to go to case 21? Yeah. What do you want to do? Do you want to start studying case 21 but then come back to 20 next week? More or what? 20. OK, well, if you want case 21, it's up here if you need it. And so you can start studying it if you want to. And we'll do more on 20 next time.

[71:33]

We're just scratching the surface, actually. Up 20. So find that eye if you can. I hope you can find a way to live with it if you find it. These are all eyes into the same womb. But they are different eyes, actually different points of entry. They're different access points. So be careful about trying to see if you can notice the difference between these different eyes. It's important. Anything else before we stop tonight?

[72:37]

Discussing what you were saying about the exchange between the people. In the stories, I'm always struck by how much they care about each other, and they keep thinking about helping each other. That's the thing about each of you with each of you, and each of you with everybody that you meet throughout the day. Can we somehow recognize the person in front of us and enter into a life like that.

[73:15]

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