another Zen teacher, Yan Men. Yan Men means cloud gate. He asked his assembly, or he said to his assembly, I won't ask you about before the 15th of the month. But what about... Can someone offer a good word about after the 15th of the month? And he was an innovative teacher and he started a tradition of answering questions for his assembly.

[01:09]

So he said in their behalf, every day is a good day. I won't ask you about before the 15th, but can you say something helpful about after the 15th? Every day is a good day. That's not too hard to live with, is it? At least the superficial interpretation of what that means maybe doesn't seem too hard to live with.

[02:23]

When I came in here just now, I walked by the entryway there and I saw your shoes, the way you lined them up. And I don't know if somebody came after you and put them all neatly in order, but I have never seen such a mindfully set out pair of shoes as there are there today. Perhaps we could have a photograph of it. Did somebody fix those shoes up after everybody came in? No? It's impressive. Every day is a good day to set your shoes mindfully on the ground after you take them off. Congratulations to you on your mindfulness. One time, Suzuki Roshi's wife said to me about this Every Day is a Good Day of Yunmin.

[03:46]

She said, Every day is a good day to suffer. And before the 15th can be interpreted as your entire past history, all your life up till today. And so the Zen teacher asks you, what about from here on? You could also interpret it up to the 15th and before the 15th as everything up to the point of your awakening. And now, from there on, what are you going to do?

[04:50]

How are you going to live? What do you have to say? How are you going to be helpful? It's a new year, so from here on, what do you have to say for the rest of your life? Well, whatever it is, every day is a good day for it. Every moment is a good day for this effort. And today in this afternoon we're going to have a ceremony where three people are going to say, make a gesture of how they're going to live the rest of their life.

[06:13]

three women in their middle years expressing what they're going to do after the 15th in the second half of this precious life. The Greek and the Roman goddess of fortune, I believe, is called Fortuna.

[07:33]

Also called, I believe, Tri-Fortuna because the Greek goddess of fortune or the Greek goddess of destiny is a three-headed or three-bodied goddess, a triple goddess. And in Norse mythology, the goddess of fortune is also a triple female form. And this goddess is called Weird. It's where the word weird comes from. And from that down into more modern times, at the beginning of Macbeth, I think in the first scene, you have these three weird sisters.

[08:47]

stirring a rich cauldron of destiny, the three weird sisters, telling what's going to happen after the 15th of the month for Macbeth. In modern times, we have the Maguire sisters, who sang of who sang of sisters, I believe, who sang of sisters and sisterly loyalty.

[09:56]

I remember that line. God help the mister who comes between me and my sister. Remember that? And God help the sister who comes between me and my man. This is the McGuire sisters, right? Those of you in your middle years know about this, if you grew up in America. And then more recently we've had the pointer sisters. Well now, today we have, in a sense, a new group of pointer sisters.

[11:01]

Three sisters pointing at something. We call them the three Dharma sisters. It's a new group. We can, anyway, watch this group go forward from the 15th of the month. This ceremony this afternoon is called Shukkei Tokudo, which I would translate, not literally, as renunciate attaining the way.

[12:27]

Tokudo means attaining the way, attaining the way of Buddha. And shukke means leaving home, literally. But I would say leaving home in the strict sense of renouncing the world. Renouncing the world. I have talked earlier this year about renunciation to you and how necessary it is to renounce the world in order to attain the Buddha way, to realize the path of freedom. We really have to, first of all, want to drop all of our attachments. So this is a ceremony of dropping attachments and attaining the way of Buddha.

[13:44]

the process of renouncing the world, renouncing attachments and entering the way, I would like to describe this ceremony to you a little bit. At the beginning of the ceremony we call up from within and call up from without the invisible, beneficent spiritual forces of the universe. We align ourselves with the great enlightening beings and the great enlightened beings and the succession of practitioners of their way coming down to us We start that way.

[15:11]

And then the people who are going to make this commitment to the path of the Buddha, they go and they bow. They bow to their parents, and I didn't tell them about this, but they're also bowing to all their benefactors, visible and invisible benefactors. Bowing to parents with sincere respect and gratitude for giving us birth as human beings who can now realize the inspiration to practice the way of freedom for the benefit of the world.

[16:36]

We honestly are able these days in America to become aware that our parents, in some sense, most of our parents, in some sense, let us down. But at this time, at the time of renouncing the world, we don't think about that so much. We more think about the fact that our parents have actually given us life, have been a vehicle for our life, and we deeply dwell and express our gratitude for this life. We pay sincere respect and we bow, a full bow to our parents.

[17:54]

Now, I don't know if the people getting ordained today can identify with the next level of benefaction which I bring up, but I'll tell you about it anyway. And if you feel it, feel it. If you understand it, If you don't, please listen. In Asia, the people who are becoming ordained are instructed to express their gratitude and pay respects to the guardian deity of their ancestral shrine and to the deities or the protecting spirit of their birthplace. to pay respects to the leaders of the nation and to the land and the water. And again, if we talk about paying respects to the leaders of the nation, we often think of certain political figures, and then we think, pay respects to so-and-so?

[19:18]

Please. we just got rid of that guy so again we have such a mind but there's another side of the story and that is we haven't had a nuclear war and as confused or whatever anybody is still something some leadership there's an aspect of the leadership of the world which has protected our life we pay respect to that we thank all the intelligence and kindness which has made possible our life there's that too there is integrity also in the midst of everything else we know about we thank that we express our gratitude to that beneficial action

[20:21]

And when we were born, at the place we were born, our life was protected. There was something there, something which we can't see, which supported us. We could see our parents. They supported us at the time of our birth. helped us and we can see them. But many other things help us at our time of birth that we can't see. We express gratitude also to that. All these forces of the world, visible and invisible, we pay gratitude to, we bow to at the beginning of this ceremony. Then we bow to the Buddha. And then we bow to the ordination teacher. And then the next thing that happens in the ceremony is head shaving, cutting of the hair.

[21:34]

And this cutting of the hair is symbolic of cutting attachments. is symbolic of renunciation of attachments. When we begin the head shaving, we chant, only the mind of a bodhisattva can cut through this drifting, wandering life and take the path of nirvana.

[22:42]

This virtue cannot be defined. Bravo, courageous ones. able to understand the world is impermanent. You abandon the mundane and head for nirvana. This is rare to find and hard to imagine. And then as the head shaving continues we chant, Oh, the bonds of attachment are hard to break. In our past, present and future karma realization beyond the realm of karma is the offering of true compassion. The offering of true compassion.

[23:49]

What is it? It is realization beyond karma. Realization beyond our action is the offering of true compassion. What does it mean to realize beyond the realm of action. When you meet someone, when you touch someone, or when someone touches you, or when you hear something or see something, this touching, this meeting, this hearing, this is the realm of karma.

[24:54]

What does it mean to talk about the realm beyond karma, beyond these actions of hearing, seeing, touching, meeting, greeting? What does that mean? It does not mean someplace other than greeting, meeting, touching, and hearing. It also does not mean that it is those things. It's not those things, and it's not not those things. If it were those things, then when those things weren't happening, the true compassion would not be possible.

[26:07]

If it were not those things, then when those things are happening, true compassion would not be possible. True compassion can reach into every situation. It cannot be defined. Because it cannot be defined, because it isn't anything all by itself, it reaches everywhere non-stop. It is realization in this realm which reaches everywhere that these bodhisattvas are intending towards. It is this that they wish to do after the fifteenth of the month for the rest of this precious short life. Where is this realization beyond karma?

[27:13]

which is the offering of true compassion. It's right in front of you but it's not this. It's very close but it's not you and it's not her. It's ungraspable and yet you can be completely dedicated to it. It is the eye of compassion which wakes up all enlightening beings and all enlightened beings. It is the eye which observes all living beings. And it is the accumulation of an ocean of happiness beyond measure.

[28:18]

And again, beyond measure means that it's very big and very small. It's so big you can't get a hold of it and it's so small you can't get a hold of it. It can fit into any situation. It does. Only the mind of a bodhisattva can cut through this world and take this path. The bonds of attachment are hard to break in our past, present and future karma. It is hard to break these bonds of attachment in what we've done, what we do now and what we will do. It's hard. It's hard to not think that you've got to do something.

[29:20]

that you got to do more karma. You got to do a certain kind of karma in order to offer true compassion. It's so close, this realization beyond karma. It's so close. My hand is held out here now in the air. It's so close to this, but it's not this. And it's not not this, it's so close. While transmigrating in these three worlds of karma, one cannot cut through our sentiments abandoning sentiment and entering the unborn is the true repayment of the kindness which we have received.

[30:37]

Continuing through this shaving of the head, we chant, in the world of birth and death, we realize our imperturbable way-seeking mind. When we do this, awakening is right at hand. In this world of birth and death, we realize our imperturbable mind which seeks the way of realization beyond karma. At that time, awakening is right at hand, is at the tip of our finger, the tip of our tongue. This very beginner's mind Bodhisattvas know as immeasurably deep and wide.

[31:47]

Not even a Buddha can define it. It's not just we poor beginning students that can't define this mind, all the Buddhas together can't do it either. When a bodhisattva in the midst of birth and death is inspired for the very first time. They only seek enlightenment with a firmness that cannot be shaken

[32:53]

When an enlightening being in the world of birth and death is inspired for the very first time, they only seek enlightenment with a firmness that cannot be shaken. Now, when you hear about a firmness that cannot be shaken, or when I hear about this, I might think, do I have a firmness that cannot be shaken? That sounds like of tall order. But I ask you to look for the mind that very first mind of inspiration to realize awakening.

[34:25]

That very first mind has a firmness which cannot be shaken. It's so basic and so... I don't want to say primitive, but so basic and so radical That it's no big deal that it's unshakable. It's unshakable in its radicalness. And again, this head shaving gesture points to this radical, original, naive childlike inspiration to realize enlightenment. And what is enlightenment?

[35:28]

It's in this case it's basically the response to suffering beings, the willing response the unhindered, unfettered response to help and to do whatever is effective in helping them become free. When one hears about this or something like that and desires that only the first time, This is called a beginner's mind. And this is unshakable. And it's immeasurable.

[36:35]

Fortunately or unfortunately, it is immeasurable. No one can come and measure whether it's happened or has not. You see it has to do with his realization in the realm beyond karma. One time I went to visit an old Chinese man. His name was Yogi Chin. He was a Buddhist yogi, and he was a schoolmate of Mao Tse Tung in Hunan. He lived in a cave in Tibet for 25 years, this Chinese man did. And when I knew him, he lived in a cave in Berkeley.

[37:40]

It was really an apartment on Shattuck Avenue, but it felt like a cave. He had an altar. I actually had altars on both sides of his room. And he had in his room a, you know, like in a drugstore or something, they have those little magazine stands or book stands where you have books on four sides and they turn. He had one of those, and in that, on that book stand that turned, he had in it all the books that he had written about Buddhist yoga. And he had two altars. And in Zen centers, most of the ones I know anyway, we clean the altar frequently, daily, weekly, sometimes several times a day.

[38:43]

We clean the altars of incense dust and various other things which are dropped on the altar. But his altar was actually covered with dust, incense dust. He had incense burners too, but actually the incense dust was like an inch thick on his altar. And he also had on his altar a Statue of Liberty. No, no. I don't think he had a Statue of Liberty, although that would have been good. He had a statue of the Eiffel Tower and the Empire State Building. And so I thought I could understand what that was about. He was a tantric yogi.

[39:44]

And then he also had... a nativity scene, a little manger with Jesus and Mary and Joseph and the Magi and all that. And I thought I could understand what that was about. And he also had all Buddhas and Bodhisattvas on his altar too. But he had Santa Claus, two or three Santa Clauses on his altar. And I wondered why he had Santa Claus on his altar. So I asked him, why is Santa Claus there? And he said that originally it was a gift, a toy, that someone gave him. And he just happened to have it in his room. But one night while he was meditating, he saw Santa Claus go over to the altar and pay homage and take refuge in the Buddha of infinite light. And he realized

[40:48]

that Santa Claus in this culture is a guardian spirit of American culture. So he put Santa Claus up on the altar. Realization in the realm beyond karma may mean that you can understand the function of Santa Claus in your life. Or some of you don't have Santa Claus as a protecting deity in your life. Something else. The merit of that single thought of enlightenment is so profound and vast it has no bounds. were the Buddha to explain it in detail, she could never, ever be able to finish.

[41:52]

This simple, this simple, basic, single thought, a thought which you can't get a hold of, which has no abode, which no one can ever finish defining, even a great Buddha, this thought is there when you first are inspired to realize awakening. And that first inspiration has an unshakable firmness. Can you, can we, can I,

[43:05]

Feel that inspiration. Remember that inspiration. Feel the firmness of commitment to it. Can you feel something that is not in the realm of feeling? Can I dedicate myself to something which is not in the realm of seeing? Can I dedicate myself to a way of walking

[44:14]

beyond body and mind. One of the people who was getting ordained said that as she approached over a long period of time, this commitment, she kept expecting obstacles or walls to be put up. And every wall she came to as she felt just about ready to push against it, it wasn't there.

[45:19]

And what was there was an openness every word I say to you in a sense, as I say it, I either hope that it won't be obstructed or fear that it will obstruct. I think that it's going to work or not work. But if I watch carefully, perhaps I'll see it does neither. and it's just openness. A robe made of patches sewn together and this rectangular piece of cloth is a robe which is spoken of as the robe of happiness

[46:45]

which has no marks. In case you don't know I enjoy happiness that has marks I wouldn't say as well as the next person but I do enjoy happiness which has marks. But I don't say I enjoy it as well as some of you do. I think some people may be better at enjoying happiness which has marks than others. Do you know what I mean? But I do sometimes, I do enjoy happiness which has marks. And I think most people I know enjoy happiness which has marks. Do you know what I mean by marks? Characteristics. Like, that has a smiling face, that has a warm feeling, I do enjoy sunny days.

[47:50]

And under certain circumstances, I can even enjoy foggy days. Sometimes I enjoy heat. Sometimes I enjoy cold. And the way I enjoy it itself has characteristics. I have these feelings. But this ceremony is pointing to a happiness which has no marks. which has no characteristics, which is unshakable, ungainable and unlosable. They shave their heads and they put on this robe of happiness beyond form and emptiness of happiness which has no marks. They wear it and the wearing of it saves all sentient beings.

[49:00]

And then with the shaved head and the robe of happiness beyond karma, then they say something. They start talking. And they say that they will practice the precepts of the enlightening beings. Because they are now marrying themselves, because they are now becoming wedded to the field of happiness with no marks, because they are not committing themselves to a path of freedom beyond action. In order to continue this wedding with the unknown, with the ungraspable, they give their word. They give their word because they have to do this because they're being united with the unknown.

[50:15]

And they say they will not kill life. They will not steal. They vow to not misuse their sexual energy or their sexual functioning or their sexual opportunity. They vow to not lie. They vow to not intoxicate their body or intoxicate the bodies of others. They vow to not speak of the faults of anyone. They vow to not praise themselves at the expense of others. They vow to not be possessive of anything. They vowed to not harbor anger.

[51:19]

They vowed to not abuse awakening, the teaching of awakening, or the community of practitioners. They vowed to walk in dignity 24 hours a day. They vow to do everything good that can be done. They vow to live for the benefit of all beings. They say these words This is, I think I've mentioned to you before, this is a gate.

[52:27]

This is a rite of passage, this ceremony. And it's described as sometimes a gate that's floating in the ocean. And fish are swimming around the ocean, and sometimes they swim through this gate. When you swim through such a gate, you become a dragon. The ceremony has a form which we can see but this ceremony also does not have a form.

[53:30]

And this ceremony happens in the realm of form and it happens in the realm beyond form. This ceremony is a set of actions which we will do and this ceremony happens in the realm of action and it is wholesome action. and has a good effect. This ceremony also happens in the realm beyond action and it does not have an effect. It is simply action in the realm beyond action. It is simply realization in the realm beyond action. It has no effect. It is simply freedom. Freedom is not taxed, is not burdened by cause and effect.

[54:45]

the bonds of attachment are hard to break. It's hard for us human beings to contemplate and be inspired in such a contemplation to enter a path like this. A path where we get nothing which is the same as saying we're free. We finally don't need to get anything anymore. We're free of attainment and thus we attain. That's such a path. This is the most serious thing that I can ever think of for a human being to think about or commit oneself to.

[56:09]

And it is also a complete joke. There's nothing to it at all. But if I or you or we are not willing to accept the unutterable and utterable significance of such a commitment, we won't get the joke. It is our attachments which are hard to break, which make it hard for us to accept our deep, already present inspiration to liberate all beings. I don't know, you know, I can't talk with each one of you.

[57:49]

I didn't talk with each one of you today to get your permission to talk to you like this. And sometimes when I look at some of your faces, even without my glasses on, you looked kind of uncomfortable. And I imagined that what I was saying was, I don't know what, scary? Scary, uncomfortable? I didn't say it to scare you or make you uncomfortable. I said it so that you will hear what our intention is and so that you can observe whether we follow such an intention.

[58:53]

The people who are making this commitment, I think, are somewhat scared. So if you're scared, you share that with them. scared. It's a funny word. I don't know if it's really the right word. I'm somewhat scared myself to do the ceremony with these people. I wonder if I'm a hypocrite to do such a ceremony with these people. when I do the ceremony with them, I become ordained again myself. And I think about how sincere I am about this path when I do the ceremony. But my understanding is that whether I say, yes, I am sincere, or whether I say, no, I'm not sincere,

[60:08]

That kind of talk in the realm where I say yes and no is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the realm, the path, where we're already free. And then so someone says, well why do you have, if we're talking about the realm where we're already free, why do you have these elaborate ceremonies and cut these people's hair off and wear these robes?

[61:11]

So you know the story about the monk who went up to his teacher, who was fanning himself. And he said to the teacher, the nature of wind is that it's permanent and reaches everywhere. So why do you fan yourself? The teacher says, you understand that the nature of wind is permanent, but you do not yet understand the meaning of it reaching everywhere. The monk said, what is the meaning of it reaching everywhere? And the teacher fanned himself. The nature of freedom, the nature of our attachments being cut off

[62:28]

and it reaches everywhere. It reaches everywhere all day long. Every moment it reaches into your life already. So why do we cut the hair off and put the robe on? When you ask that question, you understand that the nature of liberation is permanent, but you do not yet understand that it reaches everywhere. What is the meaning of reaching everywhere? A haircut. A change of wardrobe. In an attempt to prove that the nature of freedom is permanent and reaches everywhere, we do this ceremony. We do this little ceremony on this little stage, our little play to verify freedom.

[63:48]

Now there was something I want to tell you that was really important, but I forgot. Yes? Could you hear her question? You could? Could you hear her question? She said, could I say a little bit more about renunciation and what it means to leave home and drop attachments? Well, The first thing that comes to mind is that renunciation isn't something that you do.

[65:35]

Renunciation, because it is a realm beyond karma, is realization in a realm beyond karma. That's renunciation. So renunciation is not something you do. Renunciation is the way things actually are. You can sit here, Kathy, if you want to. There's a seat up here if anybody wants to sit here. So... So the state of renunciation or the state of a renunciate is the actual state of every person, of everything. Actually things are dropped off already.

[66:40]

That's the way they really are. So that's really what renunciation is. Renunciation is really the way things are. your body and mind naturally drop itself off, drop themselves off. The way you really are is that you go forward freeing yourself of attachments moment after moment. We are attached to our body and mind. We are attached to our opinions. We are attached to our sentiments. But actually our life drives us forward and constantly freeing itself from this stuff That's really what's going on and we have trouble staying abreast of this vivid freshness. But that's what renunciation is. Now, the mind of renunciation or the spirit of renunciation or the attitude of renunciation is that you actually want to join this reality club, so to speak.

[67:49]

that you want to be in accord with renunciation. If you don't want to be in accord with it, then in some sense it's impossible. Well, you really can't believe it. You can't verify it if you really don't want it to be that way. So our work, in the realm of karma, our work is to put our shoes nicely outside the meditation hall and be there when we take them off and be present with what's happening. Being present with what's happening is also renunciation. The effort to be present as though we had some choice to think that we have some choice and then to make an effort to be present that willingness and that mindfulness leads us to actually want to realize renunciation.

[68:53]

And when our desire or interest in renunciation, when our wish for renunciation, when our wish for dropping body and mind is strong enough, it coincides with reality of the dropped off body and mind. It corresponds with a constantly changing life. How's that? I don't know, I maybe didn't make that clear in my talk, but renunciation is not something you do. The ceremony today of cutting the hair is a symbol of something you don't do. You even renounce action to set yourself free. If you have to do anything to set yourself free, that's not freedom.

[70:01]

That's another action which you could possibly become attached to. And actually some people who practice become attached to certain things which they think will set them free. Just like some people become attached to certain things they think will make them happy, or rich, or healthy, or whatever. We become attached to these things, which we do. That's the realm of karma. but there's a realm beyond karma which is going on all the time and which also, because it's beyond karma, it doesn't make any effort to be someplace else than karma. It's so beyond karma that it doesn't even care about being in karma or not being in karma. Therefore, it's not some other place. The nature of karmic activity is that it doesn't really happen. The nature of your action is that it doesn't happen. That's renunciation.

[71:02]

But you don't, I don't, you don't have to make it so. You don't have to make reality happen. You don't have to make things not even appear. You don't have to do that. They're doing that by themselves already. But if you don't want to join that, then the part of you that doesn't want to join it sets up the other part of you which feels separate from it. If you really want to be with it, you realize that you are already. But usually we won't want to be with it unless we realize that not being with it is really no good. So observing our state as we put our shoes down and open doors will lead us to realize that it's no good to not be in accord with reality. And so then we'll want to be in accord with reality, and if we really want to be in accord with it, we will be in accord with it, and that's all.

[72:09]

That's it. But it's hard, you know. Especially it's hard for, for example, the mother of a little baby. Very hard. One time I was doing tea ceremony, and the teacher, tea teacher, she said to me, when we do tea, we don't think about our girlfriend. And I was not thinking about my girlfriend at that time, but I was thinking about a boyfriend of mine who was in another room. I heard him talking. in the other room, and I was thinking about what he was saying while I was doing tea. And she could tell I was thinking about something else, which she called my girlfriend. And she said, we don't think about that when we're doing tea.

[73:15]

She said, except if you have an akachan. She was a Japanese woman. Akachan's a baby. If you have a baby, you can't help it. So, you do think of your baby. Well, but when she, yeah, it could be, but then when she's taking care of her baby, when she's taking care of her baby, can she think only of taking care of her baby? Can she? If she can, fine. But again, if you do tea ceremony, and when you're doing tea ceremony, if you think about tea ceremony, that's also thinking about your girlfriend. It's to do tea ceremony not even, you know, not thinking of anything, just think of this.

[74:21]

That's tea ceremony. But it is difficult. Sometimes we think, well, that's fine to say that, but if I don't think about tea ceremony when I'm taking care of tea ceremony, then tea ceremony won't live. So I have to think about it. I don't trust that just doing tea ceremony without thinking about it will take care of tea ceremony. In other words, you feel obligated to worry about it. You don't trust that just doing it is enough. In other words, you think, I have to do it this way, otherwise it will perish. And you have to do it this way, it's true, but you don't have to think that I have to do it this way, otherwise it will perish. Even though it's true, if you don't do it this way, it will perish. However,

[75:29]

I don't know about tea ceremony, but in terms of Zen practice, Zen practice is you have to sit and be mindful of what you're doing. If we don't sit and be mindful of what we're doing, if we don't put our hands together like that, Buddhism will perish. And if we put our hands together, Buddhism lives in the world. But putting the hands together does not mean putting the hands together thinking, oh, if I do this, Buddhism will live, and if I don't do this, Buddhism will perish. That's not what this means. This means that you put your hands together without thinking of anything but this. When you do something without thinking about doing that thing other than doing that thing, that's called renunciation. And if you do that, then Buddhism lives. And if you don't do that, Buddhism perishes. But if you think of that, that's not what we mean by this.

[76:31]

We don't mean anything by this. Now, it's very difficult to do that with a baby. Because you think, well, sure, I can do this and just think about this, because nobody's life depends on this. People won't die if I don't think about this. So you might dare to just do this and not think about it. And you find out, actually, it's OK. Nothing bad happens. As a matter of fact, something wonderful happens. But if this is a baby, you think, if I don't think about it, the baby might die. And you don't dare to experiment. You don't feel like you have the room to experiment with the safety of the baby. But you do have the room to experiment with the safety of your hands being joined together. So maybe you could dare to spend a moment just doing this. And not even look for it to check to see if there's something happened that proves that you did it right.

[77:40]

Enter the realm beyond karma through your karma. I'm just saying it's hard to cut these bonds of attachment. I guess I've seen, because I've seen taking care of a baby is making that your complete focus and your concentration, and you are completely immersed in taking care of the baby and you're not even Yes, and that's fine. That's the only time you ever do it, is that time. Okay? That's fine. But, in fact, people don't just do that. They don't. And And it's hard to just do that.

[78:50]

It's hard with a baby. It's hard with a pencil. It's hard with your hands. It's hard with driving. It's hard with thinking. It's hard with a lightning bolt. It's hard to just let a lightning bolt go, and just let it do that without going, hmm, or, you know, what happened, or... will that hurt me, or will that help me, or is this a sign of something, or... It's hard. But if, as you say, you just do that, then whatever it is, is the situation in which you can realize the way. Yes. Yes. How about attachment to people? What does Therian have to say to empathy? Doesn't empathy require a conscious effort to understand, to speak with somebody else?

[79:54]

What is empathy? Well, empathy might not be a conscious effort, to feel with somebody else, it might just be that you feel with somebody else, that you feel what another person feels. The person tells you that they're sad, and you understand that they're sad. You don't feel their sadness, but maybe you feel sad, or you can understand how they would be sad. For example, they're in a situation and they say they're sad, and you understand why they would be sad, like maybe they lost a book or maybe they're getting old, and their face is kind of coming down their cheeks. And they tell you that they're sad, that they're getting old. And perhaps you might be old yourself, and you can say, oh, I can empathize with that. Actually, I feel that way, too.

[80:55]

But even a young person might be able to empathize with an older person, like a young athlete might be able to empathize with her coach, who says, geez, I remember when I could do what you can do, and I'm really glad you can do that, but I'm also kind of sad that I can't anymore. And even a young athlete might be able to say, feel, yeah, I can understand that. I'll probably be sad when I can't do it anymore either, and myself, although right now I'm enjoying being able to do it, and that's part of the reason why I can empathize. So I don't think empathy is necessarily the effort part. I would use empathy for when you actually can do it. But I don't think you have to be attached to somebody to feel empathy for them. I think you can feel empathy and be attached, both. I think a lot of people are attached and feel empathy. But I don't think it requires attachment to feel empathy. I think you can... I, for example...

[82:00]

sometimes you are very surprised that you suddenly feel empathy for some being that you don't feel any attachment for. The empathy comes first, and that's quite surprising. It often is the other way around, that for those you feel attachment to, you feel empathy for. So, for example, I don't feel much attachment to the Blue Jays at Tassajara. Do you know Tassajara? Who doesn't know Tassajara? Pasahara is Zen Center's monastery in the mountains in the Las Padres National Forest. So I go there in the winter and I'm going there next week on the 10th or 11th. I'm going to go there for a training period and it's cold there in the winter. Colder than Green Gulch because it's in the mountains. And one time when I was very cold, I came outside and I saw one of these blue jays who I'm not attached to. As a matter of fact, if the blue jays left Tassajara, you know, I wouldn't mind.

[83:06]

I probably would miss them in a way, you know, just in a way. But they're actually very troublesome. They cause a lot of damage to people and birds. And they make a lot of noise and stuff like that. Anyway, I'm not real attached to those blue jays. Matter of fact, sometimes I really... They rip my bag lunch apart, you know. Anyway, I don't generally walk around. When I see a blue jay, I don't generally feel like, oh, that's my baby, you know. But anyway, I came out of the meditation hall on a cold winter morning, and I saw Blue Jay. And Blue Jay was just sitting there, sort of perched on the walkway, and all fluffed up, trying to keep warm, you know, kind of a... And I really felt empathy for the Blue Jay.

[84:09]

And I thought, here I'm freezing with all these clothes on, and I get to be indoors. And here's this guy or this gal... freezing out here, freezing through the winter. And I thought, hey, you have a right to be here too. You work harder than me, in a way. I felt empathy for that Blue Jays' coldness, and by feeling that empathy, I felt like, hey, you can be here too. But I wasn't attached. I wasn't even attached to my dislike of Blue Jays. I just empathized with how cold it was and my empathy made me feel like, hey, you can be my world. I welcome you to this valley after putting up with this cold. So I think empathy is very necessary. I think empathy is basic. I think it's more basic than attachment. As a matter of fact, I think

[85:11]

once I realize, once we realize that attachment is the reason for our own suffering, we will also see that it is the reason why others are suffering. That's empathy. And because we know that that's the cause of our suffering, and because of empathy, of seeing that that's why other people are suffering, we want them to be free of suffering, too. So I think empathy is an essential good thing, which helps us expand and extend our feeling of wanting other people to want to be free of attachment. So we feel connected to all beings, we want the best for all beings, and because we feel connected, and because we want the best for them, we vow to renounce attachment. Attachment interferes with our own and other people's happiness.

[86:16]

However, attachment doesn't interfere if you really don't want it. If you really don't want attachment you can be attached. has no problem, because actually you're attached already, and it's really not a problem. The problem is you holding on to your attachment. You don't think you could survive without it. Yeah? You spoke of renouncing the world to attain a good way. Yes. Do you mean the relative world? Have you said that? Yeah, renounce the world means... The world is that you think other people are separate from you. That's the world. Renounce the world where you think other people are separate. And then you enter the Buddha way.

[87:22]

Of course, you still keep thinking that people are separate from you because that's the world. And the world doesn't suddenly evaporate when you enter the Buddha way. The world keeps being the world. The world is where people think they're separate from other people. That's the world. You renounce that. You let go of that position. That position, however, keeps coming up every moment. The world of people being separate keeps happening again and again and again. But you renounce it. And when you renounce it, you enter the Buddha way. Right there in the world, you enter the Buddha's way. That's why it's the realm beyond karma. Because it's not like you sort of like eliminate karma and then enter, the realm beyond karma is right in the world of karma. Not in, but inseparable from. Did you have your hand raised? Yeah. Is there a point in time at all, except in the world beyond karma, where a human is unattached completely?

[88:24]

Would you say that again? I'm kind of confused about myself. I was looking at being free of attachments as a human, okay? Yes. My human existence. Yes. Is there ever a point where maybe at conception or something like that where I was free of all attachments? Because I kind of see picking them up as you go along in your life. You know what I mean? Uh-huh. Is there a point in time where you're free of them? Yes. Okay. I don't know quite what my question is, but... Well, that was your question. When is that? That's now. That's right now. And you're free of them in the world beyond karma. Right now, in the world beyond karma, you are free of attachments. Congratulations. If it were before, or later, or even now, if that's what it was, that would be the realm of karma again.

[89:28]

That world's going on, though, very nicely. That's the world of before and after. That keeps going on. We keep that one going on very nicely. And if you don't, other people will do it for you. Meantime, in the realm beyond karma, you are completely free of attachment moment after moment. Yeah, I can see where that would happen in that world, but... That's the only world it happens in. It will not happen in the realm of before and after. It won't happen there. It won't. The way the world of before and after is built is that it can't happen there. That's what I thought, and that's what I'm feeling, and I'm sensing that. Yeah, that's right. You're right. I just need to take it. That's... But... So, since the world of before and after is like that, it's good not to get attached to that world, because if you get attached to that world, it's going to make you very miserable.

[90:32]

Yes? You spoke of happiness that leaves marred and happiness that leaves no marred. Actually, I didn't say that it leaves. I said that it has. So happiness that has marks, for example, is a happiness that is marked, for example, by past or future, before and after. Most of happiness in the world has the characteristic that it's already happened. It's something we remember. Or something that were happening now, it's marked by the present. Or it's marked by we're hoping that it will happen. In other words, it's marked by future. That's one of the kinds of marks of worldly happiness. it's marked by time. Rather than being time, it's marked by time. That's an example of worldly happiness. The eyes of compassion which observe sentient beings give rise to an ocean, an immeasurable ocean of happiness. Immeasurable means you can't measure it. It means it's a happiness that doesn't get put in any category.

[91:44]

It's totally available to you It's sustaining you right now, that kind. It's exactly the same as life. My question is about when you commit to the truth, either in taking on robes or in another way, and you still deal with the accumulated characteristics that you acquire, What else than stating your intention and renewing that intention is helpful to stay on the path? Well, for example, you take care of your shoes, right? So you want to know how to take care of shoes? No. No? Okay. What do you mean?

[92:45]

Maybe I'm not understanding. No, maybe I'm not understanding you. So you said you make a vow to realization in the realm beyond karma, and then I thought you said you're still involved in accumulated stuff. Is that what you said? Well, yeah, it's like you put a robe on yourself, but that self is also comprised of your acquired characteristics. And I'm just curious, I got really curious when you talked about living a life like that. And I was just wondering, other than having your attention, when you deal with your characteristics in ways that could be unskillful, what would you find helpful? Are you asking what's helpful as you're dealing with daily life circumstances? Yeah, and your own shortcomings. Well, what I find helpful is to admit that such and such is a

[93:47]

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