conventionalities and ultimate truths are asserted to be the two truths. The ultimate truth is beyond consciousness. is not in the province of awareness. Sometimes they say that the ultimate truth cannot be an object of awareness. But strictly speaking, it means it can't be an object of dualistic awareness. It can be an object of non-dual awareness. In other words, there can be an awareness which has objects and subjects, but the objects and subjects are non-dual.

[01:14]

Such a non-dual awareness can know ultimate truth. Ordinary dualistic awareness cannot know ultimate truth. However, dualistic awareness can know conventional phenomena. As a matter of fact, conventional phenomena are dualistic awareness. Dualistic awareness is a conventional phenomena. It has been mentioned by some ancient sages that there's two kinds of people.

[02:31]

And what they sometimes say is there's the yogis and the ordinary people. But we don't like to talk that way. So maybe better to say the yogis and the non-yogis. or the contemplatives and the non-contemplatives, or those who investigate philosophically phenomena and those who do not investigate phenomena. Those are two types of people, those who investigate phenomena and those who don't. Ordinary dualistic consciousness comes along with normal human development and then as a result of normal human development we have a dualistic consciousness which sees things out there separate from in here

[03:55]

over here. And we think that they're separate and that they're really out there on their own. And those things that we apprehend, that we realize with dualistic consciousness, those are conventionalities. Those are conventional phenomena. They're conventional phenomena because they're realized by this dualistic consciousness. the dualistic consciousness makes them real for itself. So, that's the way it is. And those who just let it go at that are what are called non-yogis or non-contemplatives. They just look out there and they see those things and go to work

[04:57]

Yogis, however, or contemplatives, contemplate these conventionalities and investigate them. And so they're relating to these phenomena differently than those who don't investigate. Now, among the contemplatives, there's quite a variety. There's those who just heard of the idea this afternoon, around 3.40 p.m., And I'm just thinking, hmm, I'd like to do that. So in that sense, you're like a contemplative wannabe. Or what do you say, a contemplative mon quai. That's French. But if you want to, you're already a contemplative. Congratulations. Thank you. Before you wanted to, you weren't.

[06:01]

You were just taking things, you were just taking the appearances which are realized by your dualistic awareness as real and letting go at that. Now, when you start to contemplate, then you start to wonder, well, what is it? How is it? Is what it appears to be what it really is? I mean, is it really out there? Are these people and and sounds of creaks and so on, are they actually out there on their own? Really there? The way I've been feeling that they are all these years? Hmm, I wonder. And as you wonder, you're practicing contemplation. And as you investigate and reason and discuss the way these things are, you become more and more into the contemplative path. You become more and more a yogi. If you do this thoroughly, then you get to a point where you actually cannot find these things that you thought were out there.

[07:13]

It isn't that you don't find anything, it's just you don't find the thing that you thought was out there. Then you're kind of like, somewhat of accomplished yogi, because you're actually starting to see ultimate truth, which is that you can't find anything out there on its own. But there's various stages on your way from beginning to contemplate what's going on to realizing the way things are actually actually being. And various stages of contemplation, well, even a little bit of contemplation can refute the uncontemplative mind.

[08:15]

And more advanced stages of contemplation can refute less advanced stages of contemplation. And the general way of refutation is to find some kind of like commonly shared or commonly accepted analogy. And then between the two people The non-contemplative and the contemplative who accept the analogy use that analogy to convey a feeling of a different perspective. So, for example, examples that are sometimes used is the example of a dream or a hallucination. That's a kind of analogy for this process. So sometimes people say, people, non-contemplative people sometimes say that such and such an experience was like a dream. That means that they actually think there was an experience and that it was real.

[09:26]

No, that they actually did have an experience, it really did happen, but they weren't sure it was real. It has a dreamlike quality. So then a contemplative could talk to them and say, well, the reason why you're not sure it's real is because it's not. And you have a sense of that by calling it dreamlike. But it did appear. There was an appearance. It's just that it wasn't a real appearance. It's an appearance that depends on your dualistic thinking. Similarly, there's further stages of contemplation which could refute earlier stages of contemplative realization. But, although there can be this reputation, even when you have for yourself refuted some earlier position, and even when you realize that things are not existing out there on their own, you still could practice

[11:05]

various kinds of spiritual exercises without analyzing them, without investigating them while you're doing them. So one example is, you know, there's the process, there's a spiritual practice of giving And in the process of giving, there seems to be like a giver, a gift, a recipient, and even the process of giving. If you investigate this process... you eventually would not be able to find the gift out there separate from the giver or separate from the receiver or separate from the process of giving.

[12:08]

You actually wouldn't be able to find anything like that. And in our meal chant that we chant here during formal meals, we now say, may the three wheels be purified, which means may we realize the emptiness or the insubstantiality of giver, receiver and gift. So, in other words, may we realize ultimate truth that the whole process of giving, the whole process of giving and receiving gifts does not exist out there on its own. And when you realize this, this is called the perfection of giving, when you understand giving in this way.

[13:20]

However, once you understand this, you still go ahead and practice giving without analyzing the process why you're giving. So you give, the merit of giving occurs in the conventional world where you feel like the gift is separate from yourself. If you practice giving, In the conventional world, which is created by dualistic, which is realized through dualistic consciousness, if you practice giving, for example, you generate virtue and merit, positive energy, and you prepare yourself to be willing to spend your life looking deeply into what's happening.

[14:28]

The positive energy and the positive results of the practice of giving support you and make you able to look deeper into everything that's happening and not be afraid of what will happen to you if you should happen to look more deeply. However, it prepares you, but even after you have deep insight, you still can practice giving the way you used to practice giving before you had insight. In other words, go back into dualistic consciousness because that's where merit is accumulated, accrues. This is part of the two truths, right? Even after you realize ultimate truth,

[15:32]

you still go back and live in conventional truth to generate virtue. Because in some sense, you can't generate any virtue in ultimate truth. Sorry. Because there's no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, mind, self, other, gain, loss, increase, decrease. So that's probably enough. You looked like you did not understand what I just told you. But it has to be like that sometimes for a little while. Otherwise they just keep saying the same thing over and then it's just a matter of who remembers the last time I said it. Okay, any questions and comments? Yes, Patty? Yes, Patty? Okay.

[16:35]

Like this morning I said, you know, when we see the way things actually are, ultimately are, when we see the way things ultimately exist, we see, for example, that they don't actually exist in the sense of existing on the side of existing rather than non-existing. The way things actually exist is interdependently. They don't have any self-existence. When you see that that's the way things are, for example, you see that they don't have any self-existence separate from you or your consciousness. You see that. But also, the way you see it is that with a consciousness that doesn't see them as separate.

[17:38]

So you don't see them as separate, therefore you realize that they aren't separate. And since they aren't separate, you can't grasp them. Okay? Okay? And since they aren't separate, you can't seek them. Okay? So, everything okay so far, everybody? Following that? So, when you see things in such a way that you can't grasp them, because that's just the way they look, they look ungraspable, because they're not out there, or in here, or over there, up there, down there, you have no way to get a hold of them, poor you. And also you can't seek them because you don't know where they're not over there, in here, up there. They're not even that way or this way or not that way. They're just all kind of like interdependent. You don't know where to take a hold of them. Should you grab somebody's nose by grabbing a tree? Or should you grab a tree in order to get somebody's nose? It's not going to work.

[18:41]

You're like hopelessly incapable of grasping when you see how things are. Okay? I could go on, but is that enough? Huh? Wait, I'm not done. I've just done that point. This, I said this morning, this is called Buddha. This is Buddha when you can't grasp anything and you can't seek anything. And not because you're on the wagon, you know? Not because, kind of like, I'm giving up seeking and giving up grasping. You can't anymore. That's Buddha. Buddha cannot attach to anything, cannot seek anything, because the way they see things makes that impossible. So Buddhas are beings who have no attachments and no seeking. That's Buddha. So you realize Buddha when you have that kind of vision. That's Buddha's vision, okay? But it's different from a Buddha. Because Buddhas can do something more than that.

[19:43]

They not only can't grasp anything, but while they're not grasping anything, they can simultaneously see the world which is created by dualistic consciousness. Simultaneously. Which means they can be like coursing in supreme wisdom while they're walking around in the world of conventionalities with us. And they can like play all the games of the conventional world without, and simultaneously, you know, not just see that the world's false, but also see the world of truth in both places. So Buddhahood's one step over just realizing Buddha. It's like a more complete homogenization of the two truths without them getting confused. It's a simultaneous realization of them. Now the thing that you need for Buddha, over and above Buddha's wisdom, is you need all these virtues.

[20:48]

And that's why you have to generate all this virtue. Even after realizing Buddha's wisdom, you still have to generate this huge mass of virtue so that you can be actually a Buddha rather than realized Buddha. And we need somebody to do this. To not just have... Some people actually have deep insight into ultimate truth. But in order to make that something more than just somebody who sees the ultimate truth and then also sometimes switches back and sees the conventional truth, we need somebody who can do both simultaneously, namely a Buddha. And bodhisattvas actually vow to become Buddhas rather than just realize Buddha or understand Buddha or understand the ultimate truth. Okay? Does that make any sense? It does?

[21:54]

A little bit. A tiny bit, it looks like. You look dazed. You're going to meditate on that? Okay. Yes? Is this truth a karma? Is what truth a no karma? Or the ultimate truth. An ultimate truth? Yes. there's no karma out there separate from anything else no karma period no karma period no nothing period I mean there's nothing out there you can't find the karma including you can't find your good karma you can't find your house you can't find your retirement plan you can't find zen center It isn't just that you can't find your karma. You can't find anything. You can't find anything because there's not a you finding things anymore.

[23:00]

But there's something going on. There's something going on? You say so. But the one who is looking at ultimate truth doesn't find anything that's going on. So if you say something's going on, this sounds like a conventional consciousness saying that something's going on. Which you can do. It's a free Buddha field. You can say something's going on. But in ultimate truth, you can also say something's going on, but you wouldn't be able to say what it was because you wouldn't be able to find anything. Now, you can say something's going on before you look for it, But then if I said, well, could you please show me something that's going on? And you wouldn't be able to find anything that I specified, or that you specified. If you did find it, I would ask you some questions about it, then you wouldn't be able to find it anymore.

[24:04]

So you can't find karma. It's not that it's non-existent, it's just in that context you can't find anything. In the context of thoroughly looking for what's going on, you can't find any things. All you find is relationships and mental imputations and stuff like that. Yes? Yeah. So that's like, what is the inconceivable mind of Buddha, is the way you could translate your question. That's a good way. How can they not find anything? That's another thing.

[25:05]

Not only do they not find anything when they look for anything in particular, but they also not only can be aware of conventional world, but they can be aware of the totality of the conventional world. So they are aware of everything. At the same time, they're aware of not being able to find any particular thing, not to mention anything the super delusion of everything. This is the inconceivable mind of Buddha. And... Pardon? That's why Buddha doesn't drive? Well... I mean, yes, that's why Buddha doesn't... Well, the reason why Buddha doesn't drive is because Buddha's Buddha, and we would always want to drive Buddha, you know, we want to chauffeur Buddha, so we could be in the car, but, you know. But if we weren't around, if we were all busy or something, Buddha could drive the car.

[26:08]

Couldn't find the keys, but could see the keys as nobody can find the keys. Even a non-contemplative person can't find the keys. They just think they can find the keys. It's like if you say to people, can you find yourself? And they say, sure. They assume they can find it. I know it's back there somewhere. Just, you know. And they look a little bit and say, well, I didn't find it, but if you could give me more time, I would. So we assume that if we looked for these things which we think are happening, we would be able to find them. But the only reason why we continue to be able to say that is because we don't look. As soon as you start looking for anything, you can't find it. Now, if you look just a tiny bit, you think you can find it. If you don't look at all, you're sure you can find it. We assume that these things are there, that we see.

[27:17]

They're things that are created by our mind. Our mind creates images. And we assume that it also creates images and then it imbues into them reality, that they're really there. Okay? That's what our mind does. But if you actually just look a little bit, you start to be suspicious that it's out there. Even though you are still saying, well, I'm a little suspicious. I didn't find it right away, but I'm sure if I looked more, I'd find it. But actually, the more you look, the more you can't find it. So, the Buddha can see the things that dualistic consciousness creates, but the Buddha doesn't fall for it. But the Buddha can still reach over there and pick up a Marley mug and put it down. But doesn't, you know, it isn't fooled, not necessarily fooled by this.

[28:24]

But let's not get into that too much. What? You want to... Fooled in the sense that it's not really happening. Fooled into thinking that it is real. Yeah. So the reason you're not finding the key is because your mind is manifesting the key. The reason why I'm not finding the key is because this is a cup. Thank you. Any other points you want to make? Several. They'll come out any moment. I bet they will. What was your question from this morning? That short question? Remember that short question you had, which wasn't a short question? What was it? Oh, Buddha's manifesting. Okay, so she says, are Buddhas manifesting in the dualistic world? Have I seen any Buddhas? Huh? Nope. I said they come here? Well, they are here.

[29:50]

They are here. And you could say they come here, but I actually, the ones that come here I haven't seen. The ones that come here I haven't seen. But the ones that are here, okay, those nobody can see. But they're here. They are here. And I'm saying that they're here. And guess why I'm saying they're here? Because they're using me to tell you that they're here. Well, yeah, kind of a channel, but I'm a channel because I ran into some other channels. Like Buddhist scriptures say that the Buddhas are here right now, jam-packed, chock-full. We're chock-full of Buddhas. We're jam-packed with Buddhas. But you can't see these Buddhas because these are like the real Buddhas. These aren't the conventional Buddhas. Conventional Buddhas appear and disappear.

[30:52]

Those are called the Nirmanakaya. I haven't seen any Nirmanakaya Buddhas. I've seen some people who I'm willing to pretend like they're Nirmanakaya Buddhas, though. Like my first Zen teacher, Suzuki Roshi. I pretty much treated him like I'd treat Shakyamuni Buddha if I met Shakyamuni Buddha now. Pretty much. I might be a little more nervous if I met Shakyamuni Buddha. But basically, I was nervous with Suzuki Roshi too, so, you know. I don't answer why questions. But I was. I'm telling you, I was. You can maybe ask somebody else why. Anybody else want to answer that question for her? Nobody's going to do it. But how? I can tell you how. It was wonderful. It was wonderful to be nervous with my teacher. But anyway, I treated him like he was a Buddha, but to tell you the truth, he didn't look like what a Buddha is supposed to look like when Buddhas come.

[31:56]

He didn't look like what those Buddhas are supposed to look like. As far as I know, like he couldn't fly. Now, some of the students said he could read their minds. Well, maybe he could. That's a good sign. Anyway, I haven't seen any of those Buddhas that come, but I do understand the Buddhas that I can't see. But nobody can see those Buddhas. I'm not the only one who can't see them. They can't be seen by dualistic consciousness. Because in the realm of dualistic consciousness, there is a nice, generous, all-pervasive influence of what? This is a test. Of what?

[33:03]

Now you failed. ignorance ignorance dualistic consciousness is sponsored by ignorance and buddhas do not you know appear in ignorance except in this way that that this coming and going kind of buddha okay those can appear but the ones that are like don't come and go those you can't see those are the real ones huh No, they can't. Pardon? Missed all of a sudden. Huh? The Buddhas have sent word that you, okay, that you fully possess the wisdom and virtue of the Buddhas. That's a word that came from the Buddhas about you. Okay? And then they said, but because of attachments and

[34:05]

erroneous conceptions, they don't realize it. And I don't know if that is you, but that's the case of some people. In other words, because of dualistic consciousness, we don't understand how we're Buddha. But we are, that's what the Buddhists say. Sentient beings, every single sentient being fully possesses the virtue and wisdom of the Buddhas, but that doesn't mean that they're Buddhas, because they don't get it. Buddhas understand it. Not just... They understand the way they actually are. That's a Buddha. But not... These Buddhas don't appear... They don't appear in the dualistic world. Except occasionally, to help us out, they do appear. Like Shakyamuni Buddha did appear. And he was like apparently a full-scale Buddha. I mean, he had all the characteristics of a Buddha. But most Buddhas, the true Buddhas, we cannot see.

[35:08]

But their wisdom and virtue we fully possess. And they are sending us Dharma all the time. They're sending us Dharma all the time. Everything that happens to you all day long is the Buddha Dharma coming to you from those Buddhas that are happening right now. The Buddhas that are living right now are giving you Dharma right now. And they do it non-stop. Pardon? They're doing that, somehow they've got that word to us through the mouths of their disciples, but also non-verbally, you know, they're also holding you up all day long and are inseparable from you all day long. And they always have been and they always will be. That's the word from Buddhists. They have no life other than being close to us and teaching us Dharma.

[36:17]

Pardon? They have no form. They have no characteristics. But human beings like characteristics, so once in a while they do this little show, like Shakyamuni Buddha, and then you can see somebody that has characteristics. But also, another thing that they do is they somehow, because of that one that appeared, there's a lineage from that one that appeared of giving permission to various people to pretend like they're Buddha. So-called Buddhist teachers who have faces. And you can look in the face of the Buddhist teacher as though you're looking in Buddha's face. It's kind of a warm-up to meeting Buddha who doesn't have a face, who doesn't have characteristics, because we have so much trouble, like, not grasping characteristics, but Buddha doesn't have any characteristics.

[37:27]

There's no characteristic of the Buddha, but we have trouble with that, so we have to kind of warm up to that and get used to that by practicing. some of the practices that I've been telling you about. Like this morning, yesterday I talked about the Shakyamuni Buddha's teaching of training yourself thus. That's a training in getting used to not grasping characteristics. So in the herd, there's just the herd. You train yourself with that. Now, there's not just the herd. There's you in the herd. There's you grasping the herd. There's you hearing the sounds. And then there's you liking and disliking the sounds. Okay? This is the way it is in the world that created by dualistic consciousness, right? Everybody knows about that? So the training is to train yourself

[38:32]

not to reject that world but in the middle of that world you patiently settle into that world and then you try to understand what it would be like for there just to be the sound in the sound and that's it. Okay? This is training yourself at non-attachment which is the way that Buddha is non-seeking which is the way that Buddha is but also it's training you at not grasping things in your mind like not grasping That's sound. You practice not grasping the sound practice not grasping the sound is finally there's a sound but nobody's grasping it. Then there's not a you and the sound. And you and you the grasper of the sound. Or your consciousness and the grasper and grasping of the sound. So these are practices which you can do to relate to things like you would relate to Buddha. Namely

[39:34]

You're intimate with them, you're intimate with sounds, sights, colors, and you're intimate with Buddhas, but you don't grasp the Buddhas and you don't grasp the sounds. If you can give up grasping sounds, then you can give up grasping Buddha. If you give up grasping Buddha, you're open to the Buddha's intimacy with you right now. You realize the ultimate truth. The deep quality of phenomena The superficial quality of phenomena is they're out there on their own. You're over here making them out there. That's the superficial quality. The deep quality is they're not out there. They don't exist on their own. So you can train yourself to become more and more in accord with the way things actually are. So this is developing wisdom.

[40:39]

And you need to practice compassion in order to be able to successfully dare to practice wisdom. But even after you realize deep wisdom, you still have to keep generating, you have to come back into the world and serve beings, which generates virtue and actually brings you closer to realizing Buddhahood. Is that making sense now? So, did we answer your question about the Buddhas appearing and all that stuff? Yeah. There was a person who was here during the last practice period and he kept having trouble. He kept trying to do this practice. Not by this practice. He had a practice he wanted to do and he kept trying to do it. And he kept having trouble doing it. He was trying to do it, but he wasn't successful at what he was trying to do.

[41:43]

And I kept, I would say to him every now and then, well, don't worry, the Buddhas are going to help you. He says, well, can you see them? And I said, no. He always said, I wish you could. He couldn't see them, you know. But those ones you can't see are the ones that are helping you all the time. The ones you can see, they help you sometimes. Like, you know, They helped you 2,500 years ago. And maybe, actually, there's been some other real full-fledged Buddhas between Shakyamuni and now. I just have met any myself that I know of. Maybe there's one in the room right now. Please excuse me if I'm overlooking something. It's not impossible that there would be Buddhas appearing in the world today, as a matter of fact, this whole program is about to encourage you to become an actual Buddha. Which includes, you know, that you understand the two truths by Friday.

[42:48]

Because I'm going to stop talking about them after that and move on to the middle way. So, you know, relax, but please, Understand as soon as possible. Any other questions that you want to bring up about this? I was wondering if you could say a little bit about what I thought of your saying was that there are subjects and objects, but they're not entirely subjects and objects. There's something more listed. Understanding of them. What did you say? They're subjects and objects, but what? They can be subjects and objects, but they're not independent or positive. They are dependent. They are subjects and objects, and they are dependent. They're not independent. Okay. So are they differentiated then in the ultimate group?

[43:50]

Are they subjects and objects differentiated from each other? No, they are not. Because that would be the only basis for their independence? Yeah. Would that be the basis that they'd be differentiated? No. You could differentiate them. That wouldn't be... That would be okay. It's just that if you can't find them, then you have trouble differentiating them. And in fact, in ultimate truth, you can't find any subjects separate from objects. So you can't differentiate them. You can't differentiate them because you can't find them, or you can't find them because they're not differentiable? Both. Well, they are differentiable prior to looking carefully at them. So, in dualistic consciousness is where we don't look carefully at the different sizes of dualism. We don't examine, we don't contemplate our dualistic relationships, so we assume that they make sense. but when you examine them carefully then you can't find these separate things anymore so then you can't differentiate all phenomena are differentiable all phenomena can be differentiated otherwise they wouldn't be phenomena but their differentiability is their superficial quality the fact that things are different is superficial

[45:23]

how they're the same is profound. So it's not that subject and object can't be differentiated, but in ultimate truth, they aren't differentiated. But that same phenomena can be differentiated, and a Buddha could differentiate it at the same time the Buddha sees that the Buddha can't find them. For most of us, we easily can differentiate things very easily tell how we're a little bit better or a little bit worse than other people. But if you actually try to find this little bit better or a little bit worse, if you look really carefully, you can't find it, and therefore you can't differentiate. So, in ultimate truth, differentiations do not hold. There is no increase or decrease, self and other there. So, you can't differentiate because you can't find things. And you can't find things because you can't differentiate in that realm.

[46:27]

But the thing itself could still be differentiated when another kind of consciousness looks at it. I maybe said this, but things aren't in themselves differentiable or undifferentiable. It's the consciousness that makes it different or the same. Because things are not out there separate from the consciousnesses that look at them. And then depending on the kind of consciousness that looks at things, or looks at phenomena and creates phenomena, then phenomena look different ways. And I don't want to say that... It's a little tricky because in some sense ultimate truth, which is the insubstantiality, the lack of inherent existence of things, ultimate truth, emptiness, is the same as dependent core arising, but dependent core arising is not ultimate truth. So we don't say that dependent core arising is ultimate truth, but dependent core arising is identical with ultimate truth.

[47:35]

Which is part of the reason why ultimate truth itself is just like everything else, namely It's interdependent, therefore it also lacks inherent existence. But I don't want to say that dependent co-arising or interdependence is ultimate truth. It's rather dependent co-arising or interdependence is one of the main ways you can understand ultimate truth. In fact, it's identical with ultimate truth, but it is not ultimate truth. Okay, I have another yoga practice, if you're ready. Yes? I was reading your book and I came across a sentence, I think something like this, form is emptiness and emptiness is form. Is that the same as ultimate? What you're now saying about ultimate truth, that it's emptiness and form at the same time?

[48:40]

Am I saying that ultimate truth is emptiness and form at the same time? No, ultimate truth is emptiness... And form is conventional truth. So it's saying that conventional truth and ultimate truth are very intimate. That's what that's saying. They're locked together. So if you have a conventional thing, like a form, a color, a color, a sound, that's something that you can be aware of, dualistic awareness can realize. That truth, or dualistic perceiver of a sound, is locked together with its emptiness. So the appearance of the thing existing by itself and being by itself a sound is locked together with the fact that that sound doesn't have an inherent existence.

[49:48]

So those are the two truths right next to each other. Now, the Heart Sutra doesn't exactly say form is emptiness. That's not a good translation. It's form itself is emptiness. Emptiness itself is form. They're not completely, literally identical. They are just inseparable and intimate. So, this very form is empty, you could say, but that's not what the sutra says. It also is true that this form is empty. But the sutra is saying this form is emptiness. Emptiness is the ultimate truth. And emptiness means that things are empty. But as the ultimate truth, its emptiness is not just the empty. The empty are all things. Every thing is the empty. All things are the empty.

[50:50]

All phenomena are the empty. The empty things, those are the phenomena. Okay? But there's also emptiness, the truth, which you can realize When you look at a phenomenon and can't find it, then you realize emptiness. By realizing that this thing is empty, you realize emptiness. By realizing that things are empty, you realize ultimate truth. And everything is empty, therefore everything is worthy of study, therefore everything is is a Buddha door, a door to Buddha's truth because everything is empty and you can use everything to realize ultimate truth. That's why we respect ultimate truth. We don't trash ultimate truth because ultimate conventional truth, the things that the conventional world realizes are the doors to ultimate truth. We have no access to ultimate truth other than through conventional truth or conventionalities.

[51:57]

But we do have, and also, but we have access to conventionalities without going through ultimate truth. We go to conventionalities by ignorance, but we go to ultimate truth through what ignorance makes possible, namely the conventional world. Okay? Yes? Melissa and Rosie? Okay. Are common people or the non-contemplatives? If you like that common people, isn't that nice? How about ordinary people? How about foolish people? That's not nice, is it? So we say non-contemplators? Non-contemplatives? Are they doomed to ignorance? Doomed to ignorance? Is that the realm that they will occupy? They're not doomed. Nobody's doomed. Doomed? they're generating a destiny but in Buddhism the destinies are not permanent so you're not really doomed but if you're not contemplating you're heading in a direction you're heading in a direction which is that the things which you're ignorantly seek

[53:27]

you're just going along with what ignorance gives you. So you're heading in a kind of unfortunate direction, and also you're missing out on a great opportunity. Yes, what about it? There's hope? What does it say? What's the whole quote? Common people as well as sages? That's the only part you remember. Common people as well as sages. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Once you're on a roll, you're okay? Of course. Yeah, you're right. So what does it say? In some places it says there's no distinction between common people and sages, right? Right? Right? No, some places we say there's no distinction between common people and sages, right?

[54:31]

Right. I mean, who doesn't make a distinction between common people and sages? Sages. Sages don't make a distinction. Anyway, what's the matter? What's the problem? Well, I guess the idea of seeing everything as a door is attractive. Yes, good. And yet I get dazed like this when we start talking about the circuit. You get dazed? You get dazed, so you think that's non-contemplative? When you're dazed, you mean you stop contemplating? That's what you mean? It's a lost feeling of just like... Lost feeling? Is that a phenomenon, that lost feeling? It's a phenomenon that I think that my mind can't follow. It's a phenomenon called... It's a thought called I can't follow what's going on.

[55:32]

It's a phenomenon, right? It's a sentence called I can't follow what's going on. All right? Is that a phenomenon? Yeah. So, a non-contemplative looks at that and says, that's true. That's true. I can't follow what's going on. That's an uncontemplative response to that sentence. Okay? Okay? The contemplative is, hmm, I wonder what that means. Where'd that come from? Who said that? I can't follow what's going on. Hmm, that's interesting. That's a contemplative response. What is that? I can't follow what's going on. So, if you don't contemplate what's going on, then you're missing a chance of being a contemplative. If you don't examine what's going on, you miss a chance to see what's going on in something other than the superficial way.

[56:34]

So everybody's got the superficial take on phenomena. That's fine. If you want to see the deep phenomena, the liberating, the deep quality of phenomena, the liberating quality of phenomena, then you're going to have to contemplate phenomena. You're going to have to, like, contemplate what's happening. So if you want to be a contemplative, that would mean that when thoughts in your mind arise like, I'm Melissa, I can't follow what's going on, it means that each one of those things that happen, you say, there's a Dharma door, I contemplate the door. There's another one, I contemplate. Everything that comes, I contemplate. Because I'm a contemplative. Now sometimes contemplatives miss a beat. You know, they're contemplating something. The sound happens, the sight happens, and they're going, contemplate, contemplate, and then somebody says something, and you stop contemplating. And you say, no, that's just real. So you take a little break from your contemplation, and then if you notice it, you confess, oops, I took a break from my contemplation.

[57:41]

Now I want to go back again and contemplate. So you're contemplative in training until you're steady in it. Until you contemplate everything that happens. Which means contemplate everything that happens means everything that happens you go whoa what's that? Rather than well that's an obnoxious thing. And like I'm you know that's truly obnoxious. Or that's like that person's wrong. rather than the sentence, quotes, that person's wrong, unquote. What's that? This, quote, this person is a jerk, unquote. What's that? Well, that's one of your thoughts, Reb. Oh, yeah. Hmm. Where'd that come from? Take a guess. Ignorance? Right. Is that something that's manifested by dualistic thinking?

[58:45]

Mm-hmm. This is like contemplation 1B, right? And it's okay to stay in contemplation 1B. The point is that you're always in class to learn how to always contemplate everything that happens. Oops, this is like painful, quotes, painful. Ugh, out there, painful. out there painful oh contemplate oh yeah so you got to like take care of yourself because this is hard work that's why I said this has to be grounded on love so you have to practice compassion in order to be able to do this contemplation okay in this way you can train yourself to be a contemplative and more and more contemplate what's happening rather than see something take it as real and you know as a non-contemplative, as a non-yogi, or what we sometimes call common person, ordinary person.

[59:56]

Because it's quite ordinary to just let the dualistic mind create objects out there and grasp them as real. That's very common. And leave them at that. That's very common. Maybe you could say usual person. The usual person doesn't contemplate. But the contemplative, the mind is still creating these, the dualistic consciousness is still churning out these objects out there, but they're contemplating them. And I think the main thing is continuity. Isn't that setting up a good way of living and a not good way of living? Is it setting it up? No, but the dualistic mind sets it up. So what's, you know, these words are coming out of my mouth, you know, and you're hearing them and phenomena are being created in this interdependent way, okay? And then the dualistic mind is making good person and, you know,

[60:57]

But these are just words, and then dualistic minds will interpret them as, you know, different kinds of people. Because it literally says there's two kinds of people, right? So is it better and worse? You can make it into that, but really it's just these people who aren't contemplating are going to continue to grasp the products of their mind as real, and the others are going to start to become free of grasping the products of their mind as real. But when they finally understand, they're not going to think that they're better than they were before. Because the superficial and the deep are locked together. It's not one better than the other. The two truths, the ultimate truth is not better than the conventional truth. It's not better. Not better, not better, not better. Somebody says so. Who says so? The conventional says so. The ultimate doesn't say that it's better. And he might say, yeah, kings don't say they're better than the poor people.

[61:59]

They kind of like, they say, we're not better, we're not better, it's not better, it's not better to be rich. The poor people say, you really think it is, don't you? And the way you prove that you don't really think it's better is you give up your riches. And that's a test of a Buddha, is that a Buddha gives up the ultimate truth. and sees the conventional simultaneously. They don't take any breaks from it, which shows that they really don't think it's better. They don't say, oh, you know, ultimate truth really isn't better, but that's where I live all the time. You know, and I would come to visit you, but, you know, I just happen to live here. It's not that I prefer it. No, the Buddhas prove that ultimate truth isn't better. There's two of them. The... conventional truth isn't really true. It's just true from the conventional view. But the Buddhas still don't think that the conventional truth, which is not really truth, they still don't think that it's worse than the ultimate truth, which is really true.

[63:09]

They don't think so. They're not into that. And they prove it by seeing that all the time. So it's not better Those two different kinds of people are not better. Those two different kinds of people are inseparable, just like the truths are inseparable. But the truths are actually completely different. Completely different and inseparable. Just like these two kinds of people are completely different and inseparable. Okay? Rosie? When you said... I hear you talk about Empty form. Empty form, yeah. Empty form, empty colors, empty tastes, empty people. No.

[64:19]

Emptiness is not the same... The emptiness has to do with impermanence in that things are impermanent because they depend on other things, and when the other things change, the thing is not there anymore. So impermanence is slightly different from change, although it includes change. Impermanence implies interdependence because we are impermanent because we depend on other things and other things are changing all the time. So we don't just change, we actually go away and get a new one. If you look at the other things, they also do the same thing, but in terms of our dependence, they just change a little bit and we're done for. So if you meditate on impermanence, that will be part of the way you understand interdependence. And what does the empty, the word empty around the word form, the way we're using empty that way, how does that connect with what you just said?

[65:22]

In that when you start to understand interdependence, you realize insubstantiality of things, which is different from... Yeah, these phenomena... What do you call it? All phenomena have this characteristic of being impermanent and also not self. And ill. Okay? They're suffering. Ill. Suffering. Everything's sick. You know? All things are sick. How come they're sick? They're sick because they're stuck in existence. They're biased. You know, they're hanging out on one side of the story. They're sick. They also lack self, which is another way of saying that they lack inherent existence, that they're empty. Sometimes in Mahayana they say there's four characteristic things, empty, not-self, ill, and impermanent. So impermanence is a quality of conditioned phenomena, and not-self or emptiness is two.

[66:25]

Impermanence is painful. But not self is not painful. There's another difference between emptiness and impermanence. Impermanence is painful. Emptiness is not painful. Emptiness is freedom from pain. But still, there's a connection. Impermanence is one of the key ingredients to help you start meditating to realize not just impermanence, but emptiness. Impermanence is not the highest truth. It is a characteristic of conditioned phenomena. And when you see that characteristic, it really encourages you to practice. It is oftentimes the beginning of your real commitment to practice, is when you see impermanence. But if you saw emptiness before you made a commitment to practice, in some sense, you already, like, have really got into the practice instantly. So people don't usually...

[67:27]

understand emptiness before they even intend to practice. But if you did, then your practice would be, starting from seeing ultimate truth, then you'd have to go back to the conventional world and generate awareness of impermanence and so on, and compassion, and the intention to become a Buddha, even though you have advanced placement. And I think that can happen to some people, that they understand emptiness before they even hear about Buddhism. And then they go practice Buddhism to generate all these virtues to implement their deep understanding. And you know, maybe I shouldn't say the person's name, because it's a famous person, but I know of a famous person who I think maybe has this biography, that this person had an understanding of emptiness, but not impermanence. and never did start practicing Buddhism and in a sense encouraged a lot of people to practice Buddhism because of her literary genius and deep insight but never could actually come into the Buddhist practice place and develop compassion and so on and giving and ethics and patience and so on.

[68:48]

So actually they suffered with that deep insight whole life and never could like start practicing the virtues that would facilitate that practice so I guess it can huh Alan Watts I think that may be Alan Watts' story pardon do other traditions have the teaching of emptiness? I think Sufism does I mean literally they do what is it like the Muslims came to India and killed all the Buddhist monks so then Buddhism jumped into their bodies and they went back to Afghanistan and Sufism was born

[69:57]

So the spirit of Buddhism, I think, got into Islam. And I think Sufism is very close to Buddhism in that way. And I think it is a kind of like... But the rigor of the Buddhist teaching of emptiness, as far as I've seen, I haven't seen any other place on earth where it's developed so very nicely. It's just, I mean, it's wonderful that so many Buddhist practitioners have elucidated this teaching of the two truths really well and really agonized over clarifying the actual relationship between these two. It's really, as you can see, it's kind of very dynamic and has all kinds of subtleties. They're intimate, but intimacy is very complex. It's surprising the landscape of the two truths.

[71:03]

That's why I wanted to bring it out, discuss it with you, because I think it's really a wonderful tradition, this teaching of the two truths. Haven't you been somewhat surprised by some of the things that have been brought out? Isn't it kind of different? So is that enough for now? No other questions today? Oh, yes, Helen? All the other yogic practice? Well, so the one that I brought up yesterday was this Buddha's instruction of training yourself thus. And then the one I brought up this morning Some of you have heard before, and the one I was going to bring up this afternoon, I think it's too late probably to bring it up because it would take some time.

[72:07]

But I'll bring it up tomorrow. The one I brought up this morning was the training of alternative and no alternative, okay? The superficial truth, conventional truth, in the conventional truth there's alternatives. So, in the world where there's alternatives, you train yourself at no alternatives. And no alternatives is the deep, is the profound aspect of what's happening. In emptiness there's no alternatives. But in form there's alternatives. In dualistic consciousness there's alternatives. At least, you know, the duality, there's alternatives. There's this and this.

[73:09]

This is an alternative to this. And then there's infinite other... So the superficial truth is there's alternatives. The profound truth, there's no alternatives. So the yogic practice... to realize ultimate truth is to practice no alternatives while admitting that you're living in a world where you think there are alternatives and you're suffering because you think there are alternatives. And another variation of that that I mentioned is in the world where there's alternatives there's non-stop complaint. If you think there's an alternative basically you're complaining. And even when you get what you want and you say, hey I'm satisfied. You're still complaining. So in the middle of complaining you practice no alternatives which is not complaining and every time you practice no alternative in the middle of your world of complaining you take a step closer to realizing the profound truth.

[74:16]

And what I just said relates to something that Paul brought up And that is, even though you're practicing no alternative, you still, and if you realize the profound truth where there's no alternative, where alternatives are unfound, there's no alternatives found, Even when you realize that, you still go back in the world where there's alternatives and practice virtues in that world where there's alternatives. Like practicing the virtue or not practicing the virtue. That kind of alternative. You go back there and you choose the alternative of practicing it. But you're supported by the basic understanding of no alternative so that now when you're practicing the virtue, you don't burn out. You don't get burnout. You can practice the virtue without leakage. Because you've realized the ultimate and let go of it. And I'll maybe elaborate on that point tomorrow too more about the leakage that happens when you think there's an alternative.

[75:25]

Okay? So that's another yogic practice. It's called no alternative. No alternative. Imagine being that simple minded. Like, what's happening? What's this? What is this? Huh? It's a hand. That's it. Right? That's it. Big deal, huh? That's like no alternative. What's that? Water. Not me in the water, just the water. And so on. Just very simple, very simple practices. which involves giving up alternatives, the yoga of no alternative. Huh? Humbling, yes, humbling. Also humble, humble yogi. Humble contemplative.

[76:29]

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