our perceptions of what's happening are mixed with stories. So what's happening, or the way things actually are, is not stories. but we have stories about almost everything that happens. But sometimes we're just too busy to have stories about some things, and some things get by without us having time to slap a story on them. And if we can't put a story on them, then we can't talk to people about them. So there's some stuff that's happening in our life which is kind of like, hmm, that was, no, it's gone, you know? Before you have a chance to make a story and tell people and sell a few copies of your memoirs, None of the things that are happening are stories. Everything is beyond story. And that's a story too, but nothing is a story. So even stories aren't really stories. The statement that a story is a story doesn't really reach the story either.

[01:04]

But we need stories in order to function, so we have them. The question is, how to understand them, not how to avoid stories, and not even how to avoid attachment to stories, but how to learn from stories and attachment to stories. And to hear stories which are about the way things... the stories are about the way things really are, but the stories aren't the way things really are. To hear the stories which are instructing us how to not be caught by stories. while we continue to use stories so we can interact with people. So Buddhas use stories. They tell stories. Shakyamuni Buddha told lots of stories. And he also told people, these stories are not actually what's happening. I'm just doing this to help you become free. And he was pretty successful telling people stories. And at the end of the stories, people woke up and saw that there is a world, there is a life called peace and freedom, nirvana, which is beyond our stories of birth and death.

[02:09]

And Buddha used stories and other kinds of interactions with people to initiate them into a vision and an experience of what's beyond stories, which is basically everything's beyond stories. And what's happening in this world allows human beings to arise with storytelling abilities and we can use these abilities to become free of our attachment to stories. but we can also just become attached to our stories and suffer, which is one of the stories about our unhappiness, is that we have a story that not everybody's being supportive of us and so on, and we don't want to help everybody else, and we basically don't like these people, because they're not behaving the way we want them to. We have stories like that, and we don't get to joke. We're like, this is not funny, this story I have. And I'm not going to let go of that it's not funny. I know it's not that good for me to hold on to that story, but at least I've got something to hold on to.

[03:13]

And if you let go of the story that people aren't behaving very well, what have you got? Well, I'll let go of the story that they're not behaving well if I can trade it in on that they are behaving well. But I'm not just going to let go of it. And that's why you need help. That's why you need a meeting with somebody to help you let go of your story. Somebody who's like into the process with you of letting go of their story, with your story, with our stories. Yeah. Yes, you need to let go of the positives. What? Not no stories, no stories clung to. No images, no concepts clung to. So you have compassion. You do want yourself and others to be happy and free. But if you hold on to any stories, if you cling to any ideas, stories don't really, what we mean by stories doesn't make much sense without some concept, some language.

[04:21]

The larynx interacting with the palate. This physical thing has to happen and there has to be words and then we have a story. We have these stories. Now, if we understand the stories, we will evolve into what we want to be and what we want to be is something that's beyond any of our stories. Just like, in other words, we want to be who we are. What we are is beyond anybody's story of us. What I am, what you are is beyond my stories and your stories. I want to become that person who's beyond all stories, like they say, the true person of no rank. The true person is beyond any story. I want to become that person because that's the person I already am. But... And that's a story that it's possible, yeah. It's possible to be a Buddha.

[05:23]

And what a Buddha is, it's somebody who feels love for all beings and doesn't think they're separate from her and doesn't fall for any stories. And stories are beings. Beings are stories. But stories never reach any being. And some people have taught us that, and they're called the Buddhas. And we need to interact with this understanding of stories, and it's proposed to be possible. That's another one of the stories. And the stories about people getting this, understanding this, and the first one in this historical period is called the Shakyamuni Buddha. the first one in this tradition. But he doesn't say he's the first one or the only one. He's the first historical one who stood up there and spoke to people in India. And he said, there's a lot of other Buddhas right now all over the universe doing the same teaching.

[06:28]

And there's a lot of Buddhas before me, and there will be Buddhas in the future. And the Buddha in the future in this world is Maitreya Bodhisattva, who's alive right now and doing his or her thing right now. And we're going to have another Buddha when this Buddha's teachings disappear. That's what the Buddha said. That's a story. You know, listen to it, understand it, don't cling to it. And there's more stories are probably going to come from you and from me and from other people. The story production is going to continue. We can't stop it, but we can understand it, I think, I hope, and I believe. Yeah. Is compassion a state of being that arises from continuous attention to the uninterrupted mind? Is compassion a state of awareness that arises from continuous attention to the uninterrupted mind?

[07:35]

Continuous attention to uninterrupted mind is a form of compassion. It's a form of mental training, which is a compassionate way of, it's an expression of compassion. Continuous attention to the uninterrupted mind is an expression of compassion. And it is compassion. And it gives rise to a state of consciousness called tranquility, which will be a good state to practice compassion. Now, before arriving at that state of tranquility, the yogi was also practicing compassion, but under more difficult circumstances, because they were, you know, unstable and stressed. But when you're unstable and stressed, if you continuously attend to the uninterrupted mind, you will be able to then do other kinds of compassion acts which will be easier for you than they were when you weren't stable and tranquil.

[08:42]

And R2, a minute ago you said being engaged and then thoroughly understanding, and then, I'm not sure if you said, and then attached, but I wanted to know if that was a way of talking about the conventional, the attached part, and the thoroughly established thing, the engaged. No, no, no, no, I mean the, the engaged part being the other dependent? You know, I think that this kind of technical language of the other dependent, the thoroughly established, you have to not, we can't talk about that right now, because not everybody here is initiated into the esoteric teaching, the three characteristics of all phenomena which Bodhisattvas are wise about.

[09:45]

So we can't really talk about that right now. It's not, it's kind of like, it doesn't include other people. So can we just talk about that some other time? when the other people who are around are ready for that discussion. Is that okay? Really? Really? We can do that. They understand that. The vocabulary has not been prepared for that conversation. Yes? I heard you use the word non-dual. Non-dual, yeah. Yeah, I don't understand. Can you explain what that means? Well, non-dual means, for example, that I don't think that my awareness of you and you are two separate beings. Duality means you think there's like two actual things that are not connected, that are not really part of one being. So a non-dual awareness would be where I understand that what is appearing to me

[10:52]

is of the same being as my awareness. Oneness, yeah, or interdependence. And the actual interdependence of things leads to the teaching that awareness and objects of awareness are arising from the same source, that they're really not separate, they're not substantially separate in being. So understanding that is understanding non-duality, and understanding that is realizing non-duality. The teaching is that we are actually non-dual, but we don't realize that, so we have instruction and transmission of teachings so we can realize that, even though it's already the way it is. We have stories that we're separate, and we have stories that what we're aware of in our awareness are separate. So we need to kind of get over those stories. And we need a lot of instruction and meditation on the instruction to get over it.

[11:59]

And we also need quite a bit of hassle. to encourage us to do the meditation, because if we're not hassled, we might as well just continue with our present delusion, because it's so easy. You're just operating to sit back and enjoy the show. But it's not enjoyable sometimes. So is there some show that's always enjoyable? Yes, we have one like that. It's called non-dual compassion. It's a stable enjoyment. Yeah, yeah. It's not the same as you, no. It's just that they're not two different beings. Me and your awareness of me are not like two separate beings. We're born together. Yeah, for example, the picture of you is not separate from your awareness of the picture.

[13:06]

But it seems like it is. That's the way it appears to people is that they have a picture of somebody and they think the picture is separate from the awareness. But of course it's not. It's the mind arising in such a way that it sees itself as separate from itself. And so people walk around seeing themselves as separate from themselves. They see themselves as the mountains. They see themselves as the rivers. They see themselves as the stars. They see themselves as other people. They see themselves as grandchildren. They see themselves that way. That's the way you see yourself. Now, if you have a mirror, then you can see yourself in the mirror. But ordinarily, the way I see myself is like my hands and you. That's the way I see myself. But I think that what I'm seeing is separate from my seeing, which is incorrect. It's not separate. But it's not the same either. Not the same.

[14:11]

Because, for example, the mountains aren't aware of me seeing them. the way I'm seeing them. However, my ability to see them is because they're seeing me in their own way. The mountains are looking back at me, but not the same way that I'm looking at the mountains. So we're different, but not separate. We're different, but not separate. Pardon? I missed your stories. You did? Uh-huh. Can you tell me just a short one? A short story? My grandson moved to L.A. and he's now living in North Hollywood. Did I tell that story this morning? That's one of the stories I told.

[15:16]

I didn't exactly say that he's far away, but you could configure that out. I could have said that, too. And L.A. 's far away. I could have had that story, too. You bet I miss him. Your bet is correct. I miss him. But I enjoy the pain of separation. It's such a delicious pain. I like the pain of missing people. I don't like the pain of being glad that they're gone. Oh, that's great. Of course, I'm happy that they're gone, but I feel bad that I'm happy that they're gone. I'm really happy that they're gone, but it don't feel good that I'm happy that they're gone. With my grandson, I'm just in pain that he's gone, and it's such a nice pain. It's a unique grandson pain. It gets me in a certain way that I haven't yet experienced with granddaughters. Well, unfortunately he's not here to tell you.

[16:29]

I think that would be really delightful if he would manifest here and give a little talk on what it's like. He might say something about that. He did say something, which I hate to say this to you, I really hate to say this, but I went to L.A. to visit and I went with my wife, who is his grandmother, and somebody said to the little guy, are you glad to see your grandmother and grandfather? And he said, yeah, grandfather, granddaddy, definitely. I hate to tell you that. But, you know, if you had him here now and you say what it's like living in L.A., he might have something to say. Or he might say, I don't want to talk to you people. He is capable of saying things like that. Could you say a little more about the pain of visiting him?

[17:33]

Well, you want to hear about that, huh? What is it? It's like there's only one feeling like that in the whole universe, the feeling of missing that person at a particular moment. It's so particular and so unique and its own richness and it's so deep that it's this feeling and not another one, you know, and it's just so, it's just life, you know, it's life, and it hurts but it's so delicious to have that very completely unique feeling of missing at a particular time in a particular part of the body. and to feel the fullness of its uniqueness is really just wonderful. There's nothing like it.

[18:46]

And then that's gone, and then there's nothing like the next rendition. And to have experiences like that is like, especially with no stories around them, or no attachment to stories, it's just like this is sort of like What do you call it? It makes it all worthwhile. Life makes the trouble worthwhile, to have some experiences like that. And if there's a lot of pain or a little pain associated with it, you want to have it or not. Yes! You can pass on this one. No, I'll take it. I'll be alive. Yes? Menju, yes? Yeah, menju. Face receiving? In our world of technology and telephone and e-mail, this word seems like a foreign stuff.

[19:53]

Yeah. Can you comment on that and the quality of our lives? Well, I'll make a short comment, and that is that menju, face-to-face transmission, in a sense, is a very ancient way of people being together. It comes from the time when we have... It comes, like even today, the few indigenous cultures that we still have, they still live on and maintain themselves very clearly by menju, by face-to-face oral transmission. And Zen, the Buddha Dharma and particularly Zen, originally Buddha very much emphasized this face-to-face transmission. All of the Enlightenment stories are Buddha talking to somebody face-to-face. And then later in the tradition of the Buddha Dharma, you don't hear about it so much. People were, you know, they were doing various other interesting things they were talking about, but in the Zen school this face-to-face thing was reactivated and re-emphasized.

[20:56]

So in Zen, Zen is saying, our tradition is an oral tradition, and they're also saying that Shakyamuni Buddha was an oral transmitter. So from 2,500 years ago, and like 1,500 years ago, and 1,100 years ago, and 800 years ago, Zen has been maintaining a face-to-face oral transmission, and now is this technological world where oral transmission seems to be like, where is it? We have a few little Zen centers where the oral transmission is continuing. And so it's like we're on the verge of having oral transmission totally annihilated by the force of our technological life. where people think telling stories about not believing stories and doing it face-to-face is like, what? What's that? Not to mention that if you ever were interested and then you would go into a room to do this menju, your heart would beat so that you could hardly speak.

[22:10]

So people, it's kind of frightening to come away from your computer and go in a room and meet somebody face to face. So it's not a real popular thing to do. Unless you think you're gonna get a lot of money for it or something, which is why I do it. Yeah, so the oral culture, Oral cultures are really in danger now, and Zen is an oral culture, and it's in danger of being snuffed out in the face of technological involvement. I remember when I was in college, when I was in graduate school at the University of Minnesota, I supported myself by doing computer programming for the psychology department where I was a graduate student. and I went into the computer room to submit my program to test it out, and I was looking for the, what do you call it, the operator of the computer.

[23:17]

I was a programmer, but I didn't know how to operate the computer, so I went looking for the operator, and I couldn't see him, and I went back, sort of in some back area, you know, and I found the operator, and I went up to him, and when he saw me, he was terrified to see a person face-to-face, you know. because he's like him and he wasn't aware, he wasn't into face-to-face transmission. If you're into face-to-face transmission, then almost anybody can come up to you and you can say, oh, you too, huh? You're here too. Oh, another one, another one, another one. But if you don't have any faces out there and a face shows up, it's like a big shock. So face-to-face transmission is in danger right now of being annihilated. Well, not annihilated, going into a phase of extinction. And that probably will happen someday, that the Buddhist tradition, which is an oral transmission, a face-to-face transmission, will disappear in this world. That probably will happen, because even this face-to-face transmission is impermanent.

[24:27]

However, the story is that it will reemerge again in another world, and it will flourish again. So now we're just like taking care of it until it gets blown out of the water. And it's, you know, compared to the strength of it in the past, maybe it's really a lot weaker because of the technological environment we live in where people can actually like not be with people for a long time. And it didn't used to be like that. People who weren't with people were like really scared. You know, we grew up being together, and if you wanted to hurt somebody, just push them out of the group. That was enough for them to be, like, really scared. That's a way to discipline people, is just push them outside the group for a while, and they'll get really scared. Horses do that, too, I understand. That the horses are, what do you call it, horse packs or horse herds, are matriarchal.

[25:32]

a female runs the herd, and the way they discipline the teenagers... Of course, little colts can be very naughty and they're not going to push them out of the group, but as they get more mature, adolescent, if they don't cooperate with the situation, they push the adolescents out where the wolves can get them. And after they're out there for a while, they come back, you know, usually and say, okay, okay, okay. And we're that way, too. We really are We really are outgrowths of communal life, and now we can be in a strange situation of being all by ourselves and think that face-to-face transmission and oral transmission and oral culture isn't necessary, or even just weird and old-fashioned or whatever. That doesn't mean oral transmission is easy or not scary and not dangerous. It just means it's where spiritual life, in Zen anyway, lives. Maybe we need a new religion, you know, where people are somehow getting spiritual advice without face-to-face transmission, but what comes to mind is they have these huge assemblies with thousands of people in the room, and now they have these big screens behind the preachers so everybody can see the preacher's face, you know, from various angles.

[26:54]

So maybe face-to-face transmission will find a way in technology to survive. Because it's okay if it's on a screen, as long as you're scared. As long as when you go down there to the screen, you put the screen on, there's the Buddha, you feel your heart beating, and like, oh wow, this is like, oh my, the cares that hung around all week seem to vanish like a gambler's lucky streak, and I'm in Menju. Maybe it can happen with computer screens, I don't know. Are people trying that? Probably. Yeah? It doesn't sound like devil's advocate, it sounds like Buddha's advocate.

[28:04]

Does your heart beat when you're doing that? And you can hardly speak? Does it get to that point? Are you in Menju at that time? What? Okay. So she survived. She survived the technology. The Dharma is coming through after all. If it can happen, great. But there's a danger. Be careful. When you're playing with your computer toys, be careful that you're staying in touch with, contact with that with that compassion that's free of any ideas, make sure you're in touch with that when you start your computer. I think people probably have lots of signs on their computers that say, stay in touch with non-dual compassion when you start this thing. Maybe in a little yellow little box. Don't start this computer until you enter into meditation on non-dual compassion.

[29:23]

Okay. I won't. There's a Zen story about that. Zen Master gets up in the morning, and he goes to brush his teeth, he looks in the mirror, and he says, Master! And then he says, Yes! Are you awake? Yes! All day long, don't let anything distract you from this. I won't. That's a true story. Can you believe that story? Don't attach to it, though, okay? But even though you don't attach to it, you can act it out. You can do that when you brush your teeth. You can have a conversation with your teacher every morning while you're brushing your teeth. I think it's time to have lunch now.

[30:25]

Green Goch has allowed us to have this long meeting. Thank you for coming, even breaking through the closed sign and coming in here, it's really great.

[30:37]

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