We're studying Case 26 of the Book of Serenity now, tonight. And this class is a class that's been going on for a long time, and it has a special quality in that there's a kind of commitment to keep going on this class until we finish this book. And since there's so many stories in this book, we can see that this class will go on for a long time. So we let new people in for a while, and then some of them go and some of them stay, and then some of the old people go away for a while and maybe come back. But anyway, the class, it's a long-standing thing going on. And I wanted to say to the people who have been in the class for a very long time that if you...

[01:06]

If you feel discouraged or something over the years, please say something about what problems you're having. Any problems you're having that you'd like to say tonight? What's the point of all these cases? The point? I think they're trying to clarify what the practice of the Buddha mind is. They're trying to actually help us receive and use the mind of the awakened one. And they come at it from all many, many different angles. Each case even has different angles in it.

[02:16]

I think that's the point. Thank you. Anything else that anyone would like to say at the beginning? Yes? I've been wondering who you study with these cases. Who do I study them with? I don't study... I study them with you. But other than us? No. You've never studied these people? What? You've never studied these people? Oh, well, I've studied this book for about ten years. But I never really... I mean, I've heard some people give some talks on this, but this book is newly translated into English. So there was no one to study in English, and Suzuki Roshi never had this book in English to teach us from.

[03:21]

So I didn't go through this book with some elder to me before I went through it here. Although I read the book off and on, here and there, different cases that are of interest for about 10 years, I never systematically went through it. Did you have anything to do on that? Did you study ? No. Well, I guess my way of studying things is that I fortunately, or unfortunately, when I read Buddhist texts, I often, I don't, I'm not moved by them often.

[04:40]

And then I think, well, why not? And so then I go back again at some point when I feel like it. And again, oftentimes, nothing much is there for me. But because I... I'm struck by the fact that these texts have been transmitted and taken care of for so long and that some of them were so revered by important figures in our practice lineage. I keep looking at them out of respect for that. And then sometimes what happens is that I open the book one day and I read something and what was before maybe just dusty and cold suddenly becomes warm or even bloody.

[05:53]

And then somehow my life and the text are kind of the same thing. And then the text is about my life and my life is about the text. And that somehow makes me more enthusiastic. And then sometimes I can, then sometimes I get the feel of the text and I can, then the next word or the next page is also like that. And sometimes then the whole text suddenly becomes totally, you know, immediate and alive. Like the lights are turned on. So I guess the main thing I do is I just go back again and again, over, back and forth, over and over and over, until something comes alive.

[07:06]

And I don't, I don't, I sometimes, I take a break before I go over it again. Sometimes I go over it, and then I come back, sometimes years later. But most of the things that are the most uninteresting to me have turned out to be the most interesting. Some people have a different way. They immediately have access to some of this material, which is a different kind of a person, I guess. So their way of study will be different, maybe. But I'm very slow. Yeah, I did that. I've done that. But sometimes I won't even take something like that unless it already has some life for me.

[08:28]

Like there's various places in this text where there's various things that are alive and I might take that living thing and use it in my life, some word or phrase and use it in my life. But I have used that one. But I have a problem with that one in that it's, you know, it's, what, it's a cliché. It's a particular cliché. I have a problem with it. And it has associations with systems. And I think systems are particularly dangerous.

[09:34]

Actually, I brought this book, Winesburg, Ohio, with me because I thought it was a poll of Case 26, but it also has to do with this. The introduction to the book is called The Book of the Grotesques. The Book of the Grotesque. Grotesque means a kind of ludicrous or ludicrous or incongruent incongruous distortion or a kind of extravagant or outlandishness. And, uh... In the, uh... In the introduction, he's talking about an author, an old man, uh...

[10:43]

And it says, in bed, in the bed, the old man, the writer, had a dream that was not a dream. As he grew somewhat sleepy but was still conscious, figures began to appear before his eyes. He imagined the young, indescribable thing within himself was driving a long procession of figures before his eyes. there was this young thing inside him. And you see, the interest in all these and all this lies in the figures that went before his eyes. They were all grotesques. All the men and women the writer had ever known had become grotesques

[11:54]

the grotesques were not all horrible. Some were amusing. Some were almost beautiful. The book of grotesques had one central thought that was very strange and always remained with me. I remember it By remembering it, I have been able to understand many people and things that I was never able to understand before. The thought was involved, but a simple statement of it would be something like this. That in the beginning, when the world was young, there were many thoughts, but no such thing as truth existed. Man had made the truths himself and each truth was a composite of a great many vague thoughts.

[13:05]

All about in the world were the truths and they were all beautiful. So the old man had listed hundreds of truths in his book. Hundreds and hundreds were the truths, and they were all beautiful. And then the people came along. Each, as he appeared, snatched up one of the truths, and some, who were quite strong, snatched up a dozen of them. It was the truths that made the people grotesque. It was the truths that made the people grotesques. The old man had quite an elaborate theory concerning the matter. It was his notion that the moment one of the people took one of the truths to himself, called it her truth, tried to live her life by it, she became a grotesque.

[14:25]

And the truth he embraced became a falsehood. So that's why I don't like systems. Because systems of truths make me grotesque. I will become grotesque. I heard about, I can't remember if I got this story right, but the devil was walking along with somebody and they saw somebody up ahead who stopped to pick up a piece of paper. The person picked it up and read it. And the person said to the devil, did you see that? And the devil said, yeah. He said, aren't you afraid the person that there was something helpful written on that piece of paper? The devil said, no.

[15:29]

I'm just waiting for him to make a system out of it. So in some sense, I think this koan is a little bit about this business of... getting truths and the danger of getting truths and holding on to them, and having systems of how to make things work, or having systems, have a system of the path of Buddhist practice and all that. So to review a little bit, Yangshan pointed to a snow lion and said, is there anything that goes beyond this color?

[16:45]

So we talked about what whiteness is before, right? As we get into the case, I might ask a quick question. And that is, your story reminds me of... Excuse me, what's this thing being passed around for? Registration. Registration. So it's for people that haven't signed up to sign up? OK. I think it was a quote of on his work in psychotherapy theory. And he was asked how come he didn't put more techniques in . As an newcomer to this class, Well, so... So what does whiteness have to do... What is whiteness about?

[18:27]

I mean, as a color... Well, as a color, but also as a way... He said how to approach this class, okay? What does whiteness have to do with how to approach this class or how to approach these stories? What's whiteness about? Blankness. Hmm? Blankness. Yeah, but how do you get blankness? By mixing everything. What? By mixing everything. By mixing everything? White includes all the... All colors. It doesn't exclude any... Right, it reflects all the colors. It's a reflection of all colors, right? And black is absorbing all the colors? Is that it? Is that going to extreme? Yeah, and how would extreme apply as an approach? In what sense an extreme?

[19:29]

Come with no colors, come with no preconceptions. I know what they are. I know what your preconceptions are. I know what your preconceptions are. And if you have preconceptions, are those something that you would bring with you? Of course. Yeah, if you have preconceptions, you'd bring with you. So whiteness is... I think one understanding of whiteness is that in terms of approach, it would mean that you would... Part of your approach to these stories and to this class would be that you would bring all your preconceptions with you. Did you bring all your preconceptions? They brought me. And they brought you too. Good. Did you forget any of them? Maybe.

[20:39]

So part of the extreme effort would be to somehow become aware of your preconceptions and be aware of the ones you brought to class, or be aware of the ones that came with you to class but you don't know about. So that's part of the effort. that would be involved here would somehow have to be aware of your preconceptions. I mean, like, you know, excuse me for saying so, but poor babies, this is a lot of work. Before you come to this class, you're supposed to be aware of your preconceptions. Can't you just come into the class? Yeah, you can. But that's not really such a good approach. A better approach would be during the day, before you come to this class, think about the preconceptions you're going to bring to it. Like preconceptions about what Zen is, what Buddhism is, who you are, what the class is, all that stuff.

[21:44]

You bring those to class. That's part of bringing stuff to the class. What else do you bring to this class, to the case? Is there anything else? Feeling that you're really sick of those preconceptions. That's another preconception, but yes, bring that one too. Intent. Huh? Bring the intent. Bring an intent or quite a few intents. Yes? What? Expectations. Bring expectations. It sounds like it gets back to the case that you just first heard me talk about, about the snow leopard. Is there any... What was the question about anything beyond these covers? Yeah. Well, one way to understand his question is, for those who have done their homework, for those who have brought everything that they brought, for those who are mindful of what they bring to situations, who have been very thorough in self-awareness, this is whiteness.

[22:54]

Okay? Okay? And now, but you can go beyond that too. But first of all, how do you get to whiteness? I mean, real whiteness. You have to give a lot of yourself to arrive at whiteness. Does that make sense? That you have to give a lot of yourself to arrive at whiteness? Hmm? Anybody that that doesn't make sense to you? Does that make sense to you, David? Am I answering your question? I have an interpretation. Well, what is it? It's about all colors and all... Yeah, right. Bringing it all along. Bringing all your colors, bringing all colors to the situation. You break through the colors. You get just white or you get radiance. Or by giving yourself to observe your breathing, for example, if you completely give yourself to your breathing, you bring all the colors of your life to your breathing, your breathing will turn white.

[24:09]

Does that make sense? But he's saying, but Yangshan's asking about something beyond this. Okay, but first of all, what's white? First let's get to whiteness before we get his question. And that way, that's the work you should first do on these stories, is first bring all you can bring to the story and see if you bring enough so you feel some kind of relief from the story, basically. As you start to bring more and more to the story, the story will become, in a sense, more of a burden to you, more of a problem to you. But when you bring everything to the story, you will get relieved of this big pile which the story has become.

[25:13]

So that's the approach I would suggest, that you just bring everything in your life to the story, everything in your life to the class, which is what I would suggest you do to every moment of your existence. Bring everything to this moment of existence. And when you have done that, one of the signs that you've done that is you get relief from that. In other words, you realize you're not doing that at all. Did you want to say something, Kim? I put it away what? I didn't say that I said I put it away I didn't say I put it away until it becomes warm I said I put it away and I come back to it later, it doesn't become warm by putting it away.

[26:24]

It's just that sometimes I get sick of it. I lose heart. I have other things I'm interested in. Maybe I go to something I'm interested in, and something that's already interesting or alive for me. And then when I feel like I've come back to this thing that doesn't have life for me, and eventually it comes alive, But it comes alive not by me putting it away. Well, putting it away is part of it because, you know, it's part of the causation. But it isn't the putting away that gives it the warmth. It's the coming back to it again. where discipline fits in with that? And in a sense, I actually, this is my first night here, so I haven't done the reading, but I'm wondering if something isn't, like let's say you start this class and it's not of particular interest at the moment, but you're in the course and you need to do the reading. Then where does the discipline come in where it's not the time to set it aside until...

[27:29]

you know, but you need to do what you need to do now if you're in this class, for example. And I'm wondering where disappointment comes in with what you're saying as far as waiting until you want to look at it again. discipline there's different kinds of discipline I suppose there's basically the kind of disciplines I think of are discipline for children and discipline for adults okay this kind of study is basically for adults and I don't think adults need to do anything they don't want to do and a matter of fact I don't think anybody including children ever do anything they don't want to do but I think that some people feel like you must tell children what to do, that that's really necessary, and so I don't know what to say about that.

[28:38]

But when it comes to adults, if they come to the class and they don't want to do it, I think they can, I think if they don't want to do it, they won't do it. If they come to the class, it's because they want to. Now, if they think that the reason why they're coming to class is because I'm forcing them, or I'm going to excommunicate them, or Buddha's going to give them a demerit, or I don't know what, if they think that, that's fine, then they should realize that because they think that, they're deciding they want to do the class. Now, if that's discipline, that they discipline themselves to get themselves to do what they're doing by that method, that's okay with me. I myself don't see my life that way. That I'm doing things I don't want to do.

[29:44]

I don't see it that way. And particularly when it comes to studying Buddhism, nobody asked me to do this. I think people appreciate it, actually. Turns out, they thank me for it often. It's the thing I get thanked for most is my effort in study. But really nobody really asked me to, almost no one almost ever asked me to study. So, from the early days of my study, I have studied, and when I lose interest, I stop. I always do that. And as soon as I lose interest, I stop. I stop instantly. As soon as I lose interest, I stop. In fact, that's what actually happens. Whether I close the book or not, in fact, I've stopped. But oftentimes when I lose interest, I actually close the book just to sort of celebrate the end of that thing.

[30:50]

And I even sometimes do a little chant to commemorate the end of my interest. The problem is, do I then get ready to start the next thing with the same interest with which I noticed my interest ended? That's hard. Harder, I would say. So I think discipline has to do with doing what you love. Of becoming a disciple. A disciple... having to do with love, that you're coming into a relationship with something you love? It's not pushing yourself. I think the idea of pushing yourself into the study is really deluded. And some people say that they pushed themselves to do some things and that they learned a lot from that.

[31:56]

And what I say to that is, great. I'm glad you did. What most enlightened people have learned from that particular scenario is that that's a waste of time. And that you, generally speaking, do not recommend it to anyone else. And then other people who see that they did that and made that mistake said, yes, but you did make that mistake, didn't you? Yes, I did, but you don't have to. Yes, but you did, so I have to. So they have to. And then one more generation makes the same mistake of pretending as though a human being pushes itself to do something it doesn't want to do. That way of thinking is the basic definition of delusion. that you could force yourself to do anything. That way of thinking is the basic definition of delusion.

[33:03]

Or that you could get yourself to do something you wanted to do is also equally deluded. So I guess what I say is we do what we want. Or rather, put it another way, is that what we do is defined by what we want. The definition of what we do is, quotes, what we want. So if you look at a mind, the trajectory of the mind where the mind seems to be going, that's what the mind wants. Actually, the mind is still.

[34:11]

But looking at this still thing, sometimes a still thing looks like it has a direction. And the direction it looks like it has, you could say that's what it wants, or that's where it's going, other than being where it is. It's where it is, but it looks like it's going someplace else, like it wants to be someplace else, or it wants to accomplish something. Is that something beyond this color? Pardon? Is that something beyond this color? Is what something beyond this color? The appearance of movement is something that's fundamentally still. It's the appearance of movement or the appearance... It's not the appearance of movement. It's an appearance of a vector or a direction. It's like this. And that's actually... That's not whiteness. That's a particular... And it's a particular, it's a composition of various, of certain colors that seem to have this direction or that direction.

[35:23]

That actually is not movement. And if you look at it in the present, it looks like a direction, right? And then if you think about that, and then you think about it again, you can imagine movement with a bunch of these vectors. And each one is a combination of various colors. Does that make sense? So the definition that we use to make up action is these wants. Is it the stillness that has no color? Stillness has no color? I don't know if stillness has no color. No, I think stillness... I think there can be colors in stillness or stillness in colors.

[36:34]

But I think that by meditation you can make a given situation turn into light, turn into radiance by bringing more and more awareness to the situation. by bringing accumulation of study to momentary situations, you can overcome the color. Not you can overcome the color, but the color can be overcome. And the illusions can be overcome by study. But I wonder if you understand what I said about this thing about the definition of action as being kind of the tendency of a moment. Does that make sense? That's what I would call what you want. That seems like the mind looking back on life. What seems like the mind looking back on life? There's a tendency of the moment. It seems like a conception, a formation.

[37:41]

The awareness of a given moment of consciousness, the awareness, it has a shape. If you then take that moment of consciousness and look at it, then that would be a concept of that state of consciousness. And that would then be past. But in a present moment, where this consciousness is not the object of consciousness, this is actually the shape of consciousness, every present moment will have a shape. And that shape will have a kind of watershed. And the watershed will be clearly going in one direction or another, or will be unclear. If it's unclear, then it will be hard to imagine movement from that.

[38:42]

If it's clear, then it's easier to imagine that that would be going someplace. Then, when that goes away, when that's past, you could have a concept of that, you could make an object into that and think about that. And you can think of a series of such things and imagine movement in that way. Just like you take a piece of paper with a bunch of pictures on it and if you spin it in your hand, you can get a sense of movement. And even if the movement is inconsistent, you can still imagine movement, even though you have a series of pictures on a piece of paper, none of which are moving anywhere. This is the way we create the sense of movement. wrote on the back of this for us to move still one just, which he said in English is more accurately, the movement and stillness of just one. Grace?

[39:43]

There's something I'm confused by, which is, When I look at my own mind and I think about its movement and I think about how I label it, let's say I give it a label, now I'm thinking or now my mind is going in this direction. I kind of feel like it's part of my mind wanting to do what we do to children, which is to put limits on itself. That it's doing nothing other than putting a limit on it. And I can't tell. And then there's another part that sort of watches one part of my mind putting limits on itself. But I can't see that one or the other is more accurate. Or one or the other is really mine.

[40:48]

So are you putting limits on your mind right now? I was just... How do you put limits on your mind? I think every time I try to label it, I put limits on it. It's almost like I can see fences. By labeling it, I bring the fences in. When I don't label something, the fences may be very far out. the landscape inside is much bigger. When you don't label things. Are you talking about like when you're aware of something and you're not labeling it? In a moment of awareness of some object, you're not labeling it? As soon as I label it, it's kind of like if the field is this big and I put a label on it, all of a sudden I become aware of watching my own mind.

[42:05]

I put a label on it and the space gets much smaller. Uh-huh. It's the difference between the payment of awareness... Like you're looking at me now, okay? Just look at me. Now, when you're aware of me, you say you can label me or not label me? Is that what you meant? I'm not labeling you. I'm labeling what's going on in here. If I can just sink into the space between us, then I'm not labeling. But if you don't sink into the space between us, then you do label? As soon as I start to label, I'm not sunk into the space between us. What kind of labels do you use? It depends. Like right now, I'm aware that right in that moment when you asked me that question, I was only trying to sort of

[43:12]

It's like the wheels started turning, and then I was trying to look at how the wheels were turning. Uh-huh. What did you find? I got out of the space. I got to get out of the space. Well, you can get out of that space when you're telling me about what it's like when you're out of that space. I'll propose to you something, and that is that the basic labeling is self... and other. The basic label for objects, for the things we're aware of, is other, or not me. There's this thing that will die, there's this thing that can die, or rather there's this thing that is born because we know that something will die. Because we are aware of death, a sense of self is born

[44:14]

And then there's this self. And now there's this self, and then there's what's not the self. Okay? So there's this, and there's that. And that has many names, but basically it's this and that. Maybe it's that for me it's hard to even engage in dialogue without making self and other. As long as I'm somewhat Well, again, I propose to you that you don't try not to engage in self and other, because to try not to engage in self and other is another engagement in self and other. Namely, you're putting yourself over here and letting the engagement of self and other be other than yourself, or other than your project, or other than your idea of practice. My basic proposal is bring your preconceptions, bring your predispositions, bring your habits, bring your delusions, bring this ingrained habit of self and other, bring that sense of separation, bring that, bring it, bring it, bring it.

[45:43]

Why bring it? Because you bring it. This is not something I'm telling you to do that you're not already doing. But to help us admit what we're doing, I might say, well, bring it. Do what you're doing. Admit what you're doing. Don't try to stop that. Trying to stop that is exactly the same paradigm. It's another separation, another idea of I can change the world, which means I am different from the world. I can fix the world. I can help other people. Or I can help myself. Or I can practice. Or I can... The world has been made from this. This way of thinking. Which is fine. No problem. That's going on. And that will continue. And it will continue. In each living being will continue this trip.

[46:44]

I think. So I'm not recommending... that you try to stop that. But rather, as you said before, without trying to stop that, get into this space between. Get into the interface. Get into this area of separation. Get into the separation. Feel the separation. Check out whether perhaps it's painful. Check out, perhaps, if when you feel that separation, if you don't try to reach over and grab the thing on the other side to bring it to you so that the pain will go away. Somebody gave me a book about robins. And the English robin, and like robins have territories, you know, and if you, if you, what is it, how does it work?

[47:52]

Let's see. It's like the same thing, you know, if you, when you reach over to grab somebody to eliminate the pain of separation, you squeeze them to yourself and pop, they're over there. If you're in a robin's territory, and a robin comes at you, and see, how does it work? This is a robin's territory, right? So the robin's trying to get you out of its territory, and you go after the robin, and you back it up to the edge of its territory. It always will jump over you and get back at its territory. You can never get a robin out of its territory. I forgot how that works, but... It's the same thing with the self. You can never get a self out of its territory. But you can liberate a self from a self by studying a self. If you study a self and study a self, that means you study a self, you study the limits of the self, the boundaries of the self.

[48:56]

That means you study the boundaries. And as you study the boundaries, you'll feel pain. And as you settle into that pain, you'll see the emptiness of that separation. And you'll forget that what was on the other side, that what was over there and what was not you, you'll forget that that's not you. You'll forget. Oh, I forgot. David's not me. I forgot that. Oops, that was a close one. But then I remembered he isn't me. So I'm back in my territory again. If you keep studying that way. So don't try to stop being in your territory. If you try to push yourself out of the territory, you'll always jump back in, very skillfully. It's like, super skillfully, you can stay in your territory. You can never get out of it. And that's because the self is that thing which is born of its death. So as soon as you almost get rid of the self, by that very way, it's born again. Because the self is born really by awareness that it's something that dies.

[50:02]

If it doesn't die, it's not unique. It's not individual. So as soon as you almost eliminate the self, the self is perfectly reborn. That's not the way to get rid of the self. The way to get rid of the self is to study it. Study this unique, isolated self. headquarters of delusion. Study this thing which thinks it can do things to the world. Study this thing which thinks it's separate from everything that isn't it. Study this thing which thinks it's separate from death which thinks it's separate from its death and its death is what makes it. It was born by its death. So study this thing which thinks it's not its death, and you'll forget that this thing is not its death, and you'll forget, and then you'll think its death is it.

[51:04]

And all the things that aren't it will then be it. And all the things that aren't it will confirm it, will realize it. When you forget the self, everything confirms the self. Everything realizes the self. 10,000 things realize and awaken you when you forget who you are. But you don't forget who you are by trying to push yourself out of your territory. You forget who you are by completely bringing everything, everything to who you are until you turn white. and you forget what these stories are, and you forget that case 26 is case 26, and you realize case 26 is really case 27, and 28, and 29, and so on. And it's all the other koan books, and it's everything, except there's one thing that isn't, and that's case 26. But you won't realize that unless you bring everything to Case 26.

[52:10]

Now, Case 26 just happens to be about what happens after you forget this is Case 26. That's the special thing about Case 26. It just happens to be about what happens after you forget the self. Is there something that goes beyond forgetting the self? The self? Your back? Yeah. Yeah. And that's right. So I think that's maybe what... We don't know anyway. So this story is about Yangshan. He was afraid. These three teachers are afraid. Zen masters are afraid. Can you believe it? They forgot Zen masters aren't supposed to be afraid. Yangshan was afraid that people would settle into clear whiteness. That's what he was afraid of. Okay?

[53:17]

What would settling into clear whiteness be, by the way? Zen sickness. Right, it would be zen sickness. But what would that be like? This particular kind of whiteness, what would it be? Differentiation. No. Well, I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, it would be that you would go around and everybody you would see, you would realize was you. Everybody you met, everything they did, not just like foo, but all the different foos that appeared. you know, like when she's happy and she's sad and she likes me and she doesn't like me and she's, you know, and she's doing this and then she's doing that and she's not doing that and she's not, all those, all these, all those, everybody the way they are, moment after moment would confirm me. Kind of like you guys would just be around like realizing me every moment, all of you, non-stop. That's what it would be like. Okay? Now can you imagine getting, settling down in that? Huh?

[54:18]

Huh? Wouldn't you want to settle down in that? Sure you would. Wouldn't that be great? No? Would you call that enlightenment? It's definitely a kind of enlightenment, yes. Is it enlightened? Oh, it's in white, yes. In the glossary, it speaks of white as being the relative world or differentiation. It speaks of white as symbolizing the relative world or differentiation. Right, that's another meaning of white. And darkness means, you know, oneness or emptiness. This is a different whiteness. This book's out of control. Yeah. Can you say those three legs of the pot, there are three different methods?

[55:32]

Three different methods? Teaching. There are three different teachings. No, what... So Yangshan is saying, okay, if you people ever get it together to study yourself so thoroughly that you forget yourself, okay, what's beyond that? And, and, and Yuen Min, he thinks he can show what goes beyond being confirmed by all things. being awakened by all things. He didn't say what he would do, but he just said, I would. I would show him. He asked what's beyond it, and I would bring it down. I would turn it up. I would turn it over. I would bring it down. He didn't say how he would do that, but he would do that.

[56:34]

So how would he bring it down, ladies and gentlemen? What is it that he'd be bringing down? He'd manifest himself. He'd manifest himself, and how would that help out this poor person who's in this state, which Fu doesn't seem to think is that good? Do you know what, is that clear? I guess to me this sounds pretty good, this whiteness. And so, what would it be like if someone, you know, pushed it down? What would that be like for the person who's having it pushed down? What would that be like? What's he mean, push it down? Well, when the people answer this question, you'll realize. It'd be a downer. Huh? It'd be a downer. It'd be a downer. Now, what would a downer be like, a person like this? You'd be back in relationship of self and other. In other words, you'd be back in a situation where people don't confirm you.

[57:39]

Is that what it would be like? That would be a downer, I think. You'd be back where the world was out of control again. Well, partly out of control. You'd be back in the world where the world was in and out of control. Where the world was doing what you wanted it to sometimes and not what you wanted it to do. Where you were just as enlightened as you wanted to be and not as enlightened as you wanted to be and so on. You'd be back in that world. That's what we mean to be pushed down. Do you know what I'm talking about, David? Now, Stuart says that the way you do this for somebody is you be yourself. Is that what you're suggesting? Makes sense to me. That's the way you bring people down. That works better for some of us. Yes.

[58:45]

I'm really confused. I thought I was confused. Wait a second. Just a second now. Did you think you were confused before? No. I'm really confused. You said, to be in this white place, I thought it sounded wonderful. But my confusion is, who knows I'm in this white place? I mean, it seems to me... But if I go around in any way knowing I'm in this white place, I'm already pushed down, or pushed up, or I'm out of it. I don't know how I can go around. I don't know how I could ever know I'm in this white place. Well, you'll be glad to hear that that's not required. When you're in that place, believe me, knowing that you're there is like small potatoes. It's like, there's some places when you get there, you don't care where it is.

[59:49]

I'm here, I don't know where it is, but it's fine with me. Well, if it's not, then you don't need any help to come down. Because where it is, is not confirming you anymore. Its location is suddenly not awakening you. It's fine except there's one thing I can't stand about this place is I don't know where it is. And that is not confirming me. Like this class. There's one thing about this class that I don't like. And that is I don't know what's going on. Buddhas do not depend on knowing that they're Buddhas.

[60:55]

They don't need that. They don't depend on that. So even in that state, somebody coming up and saying, hey, get off it, did you bother them? Pardon? Did you bother them? Not in the slightest. It would be a big thrill. That's the point. People coming up and telling you, get off it, get on it, get out of here, get in here, go over there. This is all like... This is like your heart, you know. Your heart functioning very nicely. Everyone is like your life. no matter what they're doing. This is called being confirmed by 10,000 things.

[61:55]

Okay, wouldn't that be nice? And wouldn't one want to settle down there? And the answer is, of course. Now, Yangshan's afraid that you will. Therefore, he says, What goes beyond this? And Yuen Mun says, I know how to bring people down. Stuart suggests the way to bring them down is to be yourself. Sounds right to me, but how will that work if, in fact, whatever they see you as, they find self-confirming or awakening? Again, I would say, don't worry about it. The next step is, what about raising him up again? What's that about?

[62:59]

It's really dangerous. That's really dangerous. It seems that's very dangerous. You really are a great pastor. If you could really lift that up again, you were a true monk. Well, if that's the case, maybe we should take one step backwards. Okay, now. What's the problem of us being settled in such a wonderful state that everybody realizes us? What's the problem of that? We're ignoring where other people are at, where they're actually at. You're ignoring where they're at? It's a good possibility. Other people find it hard to relate to.

[64:03]

Why do they find it hard to relate to? How could they see it and therefore have a problem relating to it? That can go on without people seeing it. People see it and they hate it. I mean, what's the instinct? And what is it? To be a samadhi buster of a person. What is it that they hate? What do they see? There's a kind of impenetrability. There's sort of a non-human response to the stuff of human existence. Uh-huh. They're not in the pain and the sort of, yeah. Well, or they look like they're not in the pain. They look like they're not. So the next line after everything confirms you, the next line is, and there is a traceless, a traceless...

[65:04]

path or a traceless awakening, an awakening that has no trace. And the kind of trace it doesn't have is it doesn't have a trace of extinction, of the problems that you have when you feel separate from other people. So But it isn't that you exactly lose your sense of being confirmed, but what you have to additionally lose is you have to lose any trace or any sign of the end of those problems that people have when they do fall for separation. So part of what Buddhas do is they give up that attainment and come back to the ground Did I mention that last week?

[66:11]

The lotus goes, droops, and goes back. The lotus blooms, you know, and has these beautiful petals. And the petals drop off. The flower is lovely, but the fruit, in some ways, is more important than the flowers. And then when the flowers are gone, the fruit's there, eventually, the fruit gets dropped down into the pond again, the stem goes limp and drops the fruit down into the pond. And then the fruit swells up and pressure builds up. And the fruit explodes and flies up out of the water and breaks open and sends those seeds all over the place. So the fruit of the flower is important, and the fruit is that this stuff gets spread. Okay? So part of what has to happen here is that this thing must go back down to the ground again.

[67:17]

Okay? But that's not the end either. The fruit has to go down to swell up even more. The end will be when the fruit explodes and sends its seeds out. And the seeds, again, sink into some other dirt. And then they will grow up and make new flowers. So there is this coming back down to the ground, which means giving up the attainment and eliminating the signs or the traces of this fluorescence, dropping the flower establishing the fruit and then making use of the fruit, coming down. So Andy says that then the part where you come back out of the water, he thinks is very dangerous. Now, he says it seems to him like you have to have a really great teacher to bring the fruit into action.

[68:33]

In other words, The fruit or the flower has been brought down to the ground again. The attainment's been dropped. The flower petals have been dropped. The attainment's been brought to the ground, back with everybody else. There's no sign anymore of attainment. And the way to do that, maybe just people being people, and then now bringing the fruit into into action. He thinks that's a really great teacher, but in another sense, it's just that this maybe is a time when the teaching is actually going to take effect. So it isn't just that the fruit comes back to the ground. It's also that it arises again and brings with it sentient beings. This first time through, maybe it's personal. Right? personal. And then personally you come back down.

[69:34]

But the next time you come up, you bring somebody with you. One, two, three, ten, twenty, I don't know. You bring some number with you. You spread the seeds of having gone around once. And then you go with, and then you go with, or you go as the next generation, which then grows up blossoms, goes white, drops its petals and comes back down again. So that's one way to understand this story. And the question is, is this being demonstrated in your life? Do you have whiteness? If so, have you dropped your whiteness? Is it Petra? Yeah. I was just wondering about this coming down, whether it was a conscious act of coming down that just make a decision?

[70:41]

No. Or it is also just like sometimes I feel very easily influenced to get into a trap of emotion, maybe a trap before by other people. So it's sort of coming down again, just like enticed attitudes. So would this be also a way of just coming down, or is that coming down to do before just like a conscious act of going down? I couldn't follow everything you said, but before I try to figure out what you said, let me just tell you that you don't consciously come down. You don't think, oh, I'll come down now. That way of thinking is, well, actually, the way of thinking I will come down means you already have come down. If you think that way, you've already come down. It's not that you think, I will come down and then you come down.

[71:44]

After you come down, you'll think thoughts like that. Those are thoughts that you think before you went up or after you've already successfully returned. Thinking, I will do anything, I will do X. I was not talking about what I want to do. I was just talking about how it happens. Yeah, how it happens. It happens for two reasons. It happens because you vow to save all sentient beings. See, the people who go up and don't vow to save all sentient beings, they can stay up there. But if you vow to save all sentient beings and then you go up, that vow will force you to come down. You'll feel bad, eventually, being up there. And people will be themselves, and one of the ways people will be themselves is they'll say, I hate you for acting that way. You're being a total jerk. You're too far off the ground. You're getting too holy. Yes, other people will help you that way.

[72:53]

They will say, come back down. We don't like this up there. We don't like you being off the ground. Come back to the ground with us. They will do that for you. And at first you might say, poor things. They don't understand. But then you might hear them saying, we're not kidding. And then you might hear them saying, one. And little by little, you'll hear more and more information leading you to think that maybe this really is A psych ward. Maybe they weren't kidding when they told me that I was flipping out. So? Okay, fine.

[73:54]

I'm back in the ground, no problem. Okay, I didn't attain anything. Okay, fine. Okay, I'm hurting, I'm hurting, I'm hurting. Boy, Buddhism is no good. Can I go now? Sure, you can leave. And people will naturally do that for you if they care about you. But after you come down, if you really did go up, after you come down, and you won't necessarily need that kind of heavy enticement, then you go up again. But when you go up again, you go up with someone. And that's what this case is about, I think. So you need to look at this.

[74:56]

Stage one, stage two, stage three. And there's a poem about this. But it's almost nine o'clock. Yes? Is this the kind of thing that's going on all the time with us? Yes. It's going on all the time. We're all going through these cycles of coming up and coming down and then coming up and coming down. We're doing that constantly throughout our lives. That's what's really going on right now is we're going round and round like this. You know, Buddhas are pulling us up and flipping us through time and space and confirming us and enlightening us. And we're all like turning the Dharma wheels and we're enlightening people in millions of directions at once. We're doing that right now. This is what's actually going on right now. However, if you don't practice, you think that's just silly. Like right now, some people walk in this room and see everybody in this room as a lovely little Buddha, and they would see each person as a different kind of a Buddha.

[76:05]

And that's actually what's going on. But some people don't see that. Why don't they see that? Because they're too smart to think that that's what's happening. Because they have idea that Buddha should look a certain way or whatever. And they don't have faith in the Buddha's teaching. So they don't see this. But that is actually what's going on all the time. This is not something that we're going to make happen. This is just something that we're going to wake up to or not. And the way to wake up to it is called practice. But the practice doesn't make this happen. The practice makes us realize it and wake up to it. Wake up to what's already happening right now. Yeah. It's just this poem in here.

[77:07]

It's just this one about careful to avoid offense and embracing virtue and acting with bravery and doing our duty and all that stuff. And this thing about the news of warmth bursts the plum. Did you guys hear the news of warmth tonight? News of warmth or warm tidings burst the plum and bring spring to icy branches. Icy branches. Icy branches come to class, hear the good warm tidings, and plum blossoms burst.

[78:10]

All you got to do is turn your faith up to max, and that will happen. One, two, three, total faith. Okay, somebody say some warm tidings now. It's night. My clock is two minutes ahead. I'm so sorry. They are in tension.

[78:57]

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