It is rarely left with, even a hundred thousand million helpless, crowding in to see and listen to, to remember and accept. I vow to taste the truth and not to target those worse. Like we discussed on Case 63, which I think is called, the question is, after the great death, how is it?

[01:15]

And, Todza says, you don't go by night, you must arrive in the daylight. Is that right? And that was towards the end of a long interaction that they had. So, one way to view this story is that it's a story where the central question is, after you let go of all attachment, and, how is it? Or, after you're a Buddha, how is it? And we spent some time talking about the process of letting go,

[02:35]

the process of becoming unattached, and then we talked a little bit about what it's like when you come back from this kind of death to attachment, to a new life of compassion. What's compassion like after you have no attachment? There can be compassion before one has a realized non-attachment. Even while still holding on to something, you can still really sincerely hope that someone or many people or everybody would be free of suffering. You could really mean that.

[03:37]

I mean, basically your heart could be totally up for that, and you could be also willing to work for that with a lot of effort. But, if we're attached, then that attachment undermines, can interfere with that completely sincere wish. Matter of fact, the attachment can make us completely forget about it, as though we, you know, obliterate it in a given moment, which, you know, is exactly the time when it lives or doesn't live. But you could really feel it, and that attachment could obscure it. So, what's it like when you don't have that hindrance anymore? When compassion is no longer forgotten or obstructed by attachment?

[04:39]

So, we talked a little bit about how one conducts oneself in order to realize non-attachment, and how one, in other words, practices undefiled meditation, undefiled way of life, that is non-attachment. And this last weekend I did a workshop about Buddha's teaching of love, and I'd just like to briefly mention that. In order to let go of attachment, in order to have the courage to, like, be who we are, and feel what it's like to be someone who's like us, who is us,

[05:43]

who may have some attachment, in order to be able to, like, settle into that situation, and then look deeply into it to see what's going on, and then by seeing what's going on, realize this great depth, in order to do that, this kind of courageous confrontation of our situation needs to be in a context of, you know, complete love. And so, I just want to say that, and mention that complete love is that you really wish and intend that you yourself would be at peace and happy and buoyant in body and mind,

[06:51]

and that you really would wish for yourself that you would be, you know, in safety, in safety and unharmed, and that you would really hope for yourself that you'd be free of anger and affliction and fear and anxiety, that you really hope that for yourself, and that you would actually be happy to give that to yourself, and that you give it to yourself so fully, that you give it, that you want to give it to others too. You want others, you want the same for others. You hope this for yourself, and you hope this for yourself so fully, you really do hope it for others. And you hope it for others so fully that you actually learn how to hope it for all others. And because you hope it for yourself and all others, you realize that that hope is coming back to you,

[07:53]

and you are also, everything's hoping for you that too. And with this kind of giving to yourself, giving to others and being given to, in that context, with that kind of support, we can do this rather difficult work which sets up the great death. So we go into the great death, we go down into, like we say, we go down into the deep, dark cave of the green dragon. But we go down surrounded by love and suffused by love. If we go down there without being loving to ourselves and loving to others and being loved by others, it's just too cold and wet, you know, and slimy. And full of broken glass and stuff like that to stay there for more than a brief visit.

[08:55]

But if you have enough love and you understand that you need to do this work, you can actually go down and see the roots of all this stuff. And be free of the roots and be free of the stems and the branches which give rise to attachment. Then this love which you felt and this compassion which you felt will be unhindered and you won't forget about it. Even though people may not look like they're coming up to you and saying, do you remember about this love thing? Do you remember that you have great compassion? People may not come up to you and say, you know, we're really grateful. You're so compassionate, you're so loving, we're so happy to see you. We really appreciate it. You're so wonderful. Even when they don't talk to you like that, you still might be able to remember.

[10:00]

Even when they talk to you like, and they say to you, you're so uncompassionate, you're such a lousy, selfish creep. Even when they say that, you won't forget. Because you're not holding on and shutting your eyes to what you really want to do. So if you wish to realize great compassion, and in other words, when you understand it in order to realize great compassion, you have to not be holding on to anything. You have to open your hands and your mind and your heart so that you can embrace all beings and walk through birth and death with them. Then you understand you have to let go.

[11:04]

And letting go is not something you can do. It's something that happens when you understand that you can't hold on to anything, because there's nothing really there to hold on to, and there's nobody really that can hold on to anything. There is somebody, but it's not a gripper. It's just you, and everybody else, who aren't gripping each other, who are just supporting each other, who aren't attached to each other, because they see that they don't have to hold on to have a relationship. So in order to see, you really need to have an ongoing love exchange with yourself and with everybody else. You need to give to them. Now you can't make them give to you, they already are, but again, if you're really sure you're giving love to other people, then you start to see they're giving it to you.

[12:06]

If you're not sure you're giving love to other people, you're not sure they're giving it to you. And even if you really feel like you are giving love to some people, you may still not see that they're giving it to you. So, love also means that you don't think that this is love, and this is not love that they're giving to you. You have to sort of do that part too. That's part of love. Anyway, it is reality that love is supporting you, and because of that support, you can do your work. That's reality. You just have to sort of get with the program of the reality of love, then you can get with the program of the unreality of your separate existence. And then, after you die, this way, then you can be totally yourself, like these weirdos in this book, who just do what they do.

[13:11]

They're just blossoming all the time, walking around, interacting with each other, asking each other who they are, and trying to get some tea and salt off them. Okay, so that's a little review of case 63. Jiao Zhou asks about death. Also, don't forget about the geese and the goose and the fish. The goose and the fish. Now, in the case, it says you can't depend on the goose and the fish to deliver the message. But the goose and the fish did deliver the message, didn't they, kind of?

[14:20]

What do you think they mean by you can't depend on the goose and the fish to deliver the message? Did you understand that part? I mean, in one sense, you could understand it by... Do you know about the goose and the fish? You don't know about the goose and the fish. Well, the goose... This lady got kidnapped. She was a lady, kind of like, you know, upper class lady. She got kidnapped by some kind of barbarians, and she wanted to send a message back to her family. So she wrote a little message out saying, you know, I'm here with these barbarians. And she put the message... She wrapped the message inside of some wax and put the wax around the neck of a goose, which I guess she knew the migration routes of these geese and just happened to know that they flew over her native area. I guess she was hoping that

[15:21]

when they landed in her native area, her people, who were constantly looking for her, any signs of her, would see, hey, look at the goose. It's got some wax ball around its neck. Well, that's unusual. Perhaps it's a message from someone. Let's go look. See what it is. So she thought that might happen. But what happened was that when the goose got to her neighborhood, things were going pretty well. The goose did get there with the little message. And then the goose, when it was drinking water, the wax ball fell off the goose into the water, and the fish ate it. But then somebody caught the fish, and they cut the fish open, and they found the little wax ball. They opened it up, and they read the message, and then they went and told her family about it. And then her family, you know, went and got the... went back to these guys and said,

[16:25]

well, you know, we know you got our kid. Here's the message. So they got it back. But it says you can't depend on the goose and the fish to convey the message or the words. Can you depend on the goose and the fish or not? What does that mean to you? This is about, you know, daytime, right? Or is it about nighttime? Is this about day or night? Do you understand? I don't. Yes, do you understand? I don't know if I understand, but when you said if it had to do with day or night, I have something to say about that. Okay. Which is that it seems to me that the fish are on the night side of that equation, that the night stands for kind of the one consciousness or oneness, non-duality, that the animals, which don't use language and don't communicate in terms of subject and object, would fall off to the side of the night, and daylight stands for differentiating consciousness,

[17:27]

that we humans do differentiating consciousness. So you think the animals are at nighttime. I think the animals stand on the night side of the equation. So then that would make sense, that you couldn't depend on the night. Does that make sense? Animals are the night. But we need the light of words somehow. We have to talk. Sorry. That's part of what the case is saying, that you can't deliver this compassion. You can't deliver the compassion in the dark. You can't deliver it. It doesn't count to deliver it in this pure state, like an animal. The animals, very important though, the animals kind of like, you know, where we aren't talking. There's no problems with the animal. Right? The animals, no problem.

[18:30]

No suffering, no self, no other. Before we make things, right? Animals don't have self and other, and so on. But we can't depend on the animals. But the animals are our teachers, and they tell us in some ways about what death is about, this kind of great death. When animals come to us, they say, come, die. But we can't depend on that realm to deliver the compassion. We have to come back into the world of language and say stuff like, well, I heard about Tozu for quite a while, but now I just see an old man carrying oil around. Well, you don't know about Tozu. All you see is an old man carrying oil. What is Tozu? Oil.

[19:32]

Oil. So how is it after the great death? Then what? Don't go by night. Arrive in the day. From the beginning I've been a thief, but you can even steal from me. This is talk. This is post-death talk. Coming back in the animal realm. We can't depend on the non-verbal ones to convey the great compassion. Even though, when we see them, they're reminding us of where we need to go all the time. We need to keep dying and dying of our attachment. They're reminding us of that.

[20:35]

They're saying, come. Come to the land before you think it's possible to violate the precepts. Come to the land where you cannot violate the precepts. Come to the land where it is impossible. It's impossible. No one can even imagine killing. Come here. And then after you come here, then go back in the world where you can kill. And don't. Does this make sense to everybody? Don't be afraid to say it doesn't if it doesn't. Don't be afraid to say it does. I didn't ask if it did, did I? Did I? Did I? He said, does this make sense? Did I? That was good.

[21:36]

Thank you. Well, I think trust the animals, but don't trust the animals to deliver the message. That's all. You have to deliver the message. The animals can't deliver the message. You have to do it with your own mouth. The question is that they couldn't be entrusted to, which is a little bit different than whether they could be trusted or whether they could be depended upon. But it has something to do maybe also with receptive capacity, that somehow, possibly, you couldn't be entrusted to them given to someone else. It has to do with trust, but entrusted is slightly different. Yeah.

[22:37]

So don't depend on the animal to deliver the message. Okay? Does that make sense? Well, it includes that, but I wonder if there's also something else going on about whether it even possibly could be entrusted to the animal. Like, maybe the animals are trustworthy, but they're not actually in a position for the song being trusted to them. Right. They're trustworthy. You can trust them to be animals, but you can't trust them to deliver the message. So, the realm you enter when you die, it's a trustworthy realm, it's a wonderful realm. You need to go there, actually. You should trust that you need to go there. Do you trust that you need to go there? I guess you all do, probably, right? Don't you all trust that? Probably you do, because you came to Zen school. You trust that you have to die of your attachments, right? You trust that. You trust that realm, right? But what many people do is they think that they trust that realm, but entrust great compassion to that realm,

[23:40]

and that's not the realm that does great compassion. Great compassion is when you come back into the world where there's somebody, where there's the appearance of somebody. It's not really somebody, because you died, so you know it's not. But you have to play the game of somebody else now, and talk to them. So you don't depend on the realm. You have to go there. It's required to go there, but don't depend on that to carry out the compassion. Does that make sense? Is that what you're saying? I mean, that makes sense. Or are you making a more subtle point? I guess I wanted to ask you a question of whether it was possible to entrust it to them. Not a question of their dependability, but whether it was even possible to entrust it to them. You know how you can... Forget about them, right? Just whether you can do the act of entrustment, right? Is that what you mean? Well, I guess to put it just in...

[24:41]

Can you only entrust to something that has dualistic consciousness? Does the process of entrustment happen in part through differentiating consciousness? The process of entrustment would require that you come up in the daylight. Yes, that's what I was saying too. That you need a recept... So not only does the person who conveys it do it in differentiating consciousness, but the person to whom it's being entrusted to also has to have it. It couldn't be entrusted to the animals because they only have one consciousness. So that means to deliver great compassion you need to be in the daylight, but also to receive it... That's what I'm asking. To receive it you also need to be in the daylight. You can only be entrusted to someone. Well, there's several things. First of all, when you're in the dark you couldn't trust that the dark would work. You couldn't do that. Does that make sense? Yes. When you're in the dark you can't trust that the dark will fulfill compassion

[25:44]

because you can't even think of that, of entrusting the situation. When you think of trusting the dark you're actually back in the light thinking that the dark's good enough. When you're in the dark you don't think of doing anything. When you're actually born again in that space you should understand that you shouldn't trust the dark. Otherwise you have to work. That's one part, right? Does that make sense? In the dark you can't think of entrusting... It's not an issue. There's nothing... There's no you there or there's no need for compassion. But if you enter that realm and you're a living human being when you come out naturally you come back into consciousness again and you remember the need for compassion. But you might think well that realm of freedom would be good enough. Well it's not. So if you think of entrusting that's in the realm of the light.

[26:44]

But you shouldn't entrust the dark. You should entrust your words. And your words then will be the words in your face, in your body, your speech, your body, and your thoughts. These are things in the light and you can entrust them. They can be used to convey the compassion which is now free. And then everything you do is then a vehicle for this compassion. But some people think he wanted to mention, Tozi wanted to mention you can't use the realm of death to help. You can't use the dark to help people. After you're alive again you've got to use the things of life. After you're in light again

[27:46]

you have to use the things of life. You can't use the dark. But in a way, maybe that isn't a problem for you, but some people, there's in the history of the Zen school, so-called the Zen school, or in the landscape where the Zen school grew up, some people thought they could use the dark. They thought they could use emptiness, which we leave then from attachment as a way to convey compassion. But you have to come back into form to convey compassion, which means speech, anyway, talking, using your body, and using your mind. What about, so someone says, what's, how does, how does, what is, what is Pavalokiteshvara use all those hands and eyes for? Right? Isn't that the question?

[28:48]

And he said, it's like reaching for the pillow in, it's like reaching for your pillow in the night. It's like reaching for your, reaching for your pillow in the night. So Linda's saying, is that not really in the dark? Is that your question? Because that's, I understood that as compassion. Yeah, it's compassion. So you're in the, it's night time, right? And then, and then you get kind of like out of touch with your pillow, right? So then you wake up, kind of wake up, and you say, now where's that pillow? And you reach for it, okay? You reach for the pillow. It's like that. That's how Pavalokiteshvara uses her hands. Like, okay? Like that. Or sometimes like, or sometimes, So Linda's saying, is that not really in the dark? What do you think I'm going to say?

[29:51]

It's not in the dark. It's not in the dark. It's not in the dark. Now you might say, does that mean like there's a night light on your room? The light, the light is, me and my pillow. Or you know, or me and you. That's the light. Okay? But, what, how does compassion function between me and you? Like, kind of like, like that. Kind of like, where do your goose bumps take you? You just like, you just reach. You don't like say, this is compassion. Boom. You just kind of reach on it. Was that, was that helpful? Did I get the pillow? Oh, not, oh. Well, let's try again. Where is, oh, where is that pillow anyways? You know. Yeah. It's like, you know, you're free of attachment. So if you're free of attachment, and you're looking for your pillow at night,

[30:57]

where do you go? You kind of go like that. But if you're attached, and you're looking for your pillow, it's going to be a pretty sad situation, right? Can you imagine like having an attachment about how to look for your pillow at night? We don't have usually, we're not usually that attached about it, right? You just reach. Now, if you keep reaching and reaching, maybe your attachments get activated again, and then it's not like Avalokiteshvara anymore. It's kind of like, you know, it's kind of like, well, where is the pillow? That's not Avalokiteshvara. No. Well, no. When is this compassion going to start working on you? I mean, I didn't, you know, I tried to be nice. No, you just, it's like that, over and over. So I'd say that's in the light. That's another example of showing what's it like, what's it like in the light after you've been in the dark. It's very, it's very normal.

[31:57]

It's very, it's very lively. It's kind of like, it's completely ordinary, unhindered, before you even, unhindered. And there's a number of things we do in our life which are kind of unhindered. We don't necessarily notice them, but they're there, like tapping the knee, the knee being tapped at the doctor's office. The knee goes, the leg goes, that's unhindered. If it's hindered, the doctor says, we've got a problem here. There's a neural blockage. The knee's not responding. So the knee's actually quite free. You've got a free knee there. I mean, not knee, you've got a free knee and cap. That's free. Right? It's like, don't touch it, you just sit there, whack it, go whoop. That's freedom. That's enlightenment. How do you know? You bring a Buddha into the doctor's office, hit the knee, what happens? Same as you.

[32:58]

That's enlightenment. It's a Buddha, right? So it's enlightenment. Buddha does the same thing as you. You see Buddha, you say, hi. Buddha says, hi. Yeah. Same as you. But if you say, if you say, you know, what's reality to you, then you might stop to think, but Buddha just responds. Doesn't think about, you know, what's the right answer or something. So it's like that. So I say that was in the light. That's another hand. The same question. What does Avalokiteshvara do with all his hands? Don't depend, don't, don't go in the night. Come in the daytime. Okay? But that's what he was doing all before, before they even got to the dialogue, that's what they were doing. They were coming in the light for each other.

[33:59]

That's what they were doing. They were coming in the light. I would say, they were happily coming in the light. Both of them always in touch with the dark. Always in touch with the dark, coming in the light. Touching the dark, coming in the light. Dying, coming in the light. Dying, giving compassion. And then so in Zen practice, or Zen training, what you want to do is you want to, you want to die, experience death. And then, and then see after death, see what, see what you do. And if you think you died, and you watch, you see what you do. You interact with others. Did that look like, did that look like something coming out of death? You ask the people, and they say something, and then you see, yeah. So you go back and forth like that, playing. And if you don't think you died, you might be right. If you still think you're attached, well then you have to, you know, do your deep work of looking at your attachments. You know,

[35:02]

I, I heard this person talking the last few days, and, I like to hear what you're saying. And this person, I, I know from her, I, I know a story about her, that she's been, for some time, she's been looking at um, she's been looking into, she's kind of painfully looking into the way she'd like things to go. I guess she's been painfully looking into that things have not been going the way she likes them to go. She was hoping that things would go differently. She had certain plans of how practice would go, and they weren't going that way, and it was so painful for her. So painful. She, and the way she wanted practice to go, I thought, yeah, it sounds good for it to go that way. That would be great. So, she had some really good stories,

[36:03]

which, again, they sound just right. And the way things were going were not that way, which didn't sound too good. And she was having a hard time, but she was looking at it, and suffering with things not going the way she was planning. She was seeing that openly. And I was listening to her lately, and she really can talk now. Kind of like, she can just talk. Pretty much. Just like, say what she has to say. I think she got pretty close to the depth there. Because she was looking at the place where we... where we're trying to make things go a certain way, and they're not going that way. That's not what it means to look at the roots of the attachment. Because when you're attached, things don't go the way we want them to. Now, if you think they do, you're just not looking very deeply. They're not going the way we want them to. And you say,

[37:05]

well, I know they're not... that they're close enough. Well, you're spaced out if you think that. Anyway, she wasn't spaced out, and she would have liked to have been spaced out, but she couldn't get... either get spaced out, or have things go the way she wanted to, so she wouldn't be able to... not wouldn't be able to, but she wouldn't be confronted with how painful it is for things, for the practice, to not go the way she wanted it to. But it wasn't so much that, from my point of view, it wasn't so much that the practice wasn't going the way she wanted it to. It wasn't. That's a factor. But that she saw that. And she couldn't get away from it. Which was, you know, I wouldn't... it's not really her... to her credit exactly, or to her discredit, but it's just a wonderful thing that she couldn't get away from it. So she had to practice, because she couldn't ignore that she didn't have things under control, that she was not in control, and that she was still trying to be in control. She just watched that.

[38:05]

And so now, by watching that, by being forced to look at that, for a long time, she can talk, because she's just... somehow she's just somewhat free to be able to say what she has to say. Do you understand? It's really nice. Congratulations to you, whoever you are. Could she not talk before? Well, she was a little bit... I mean, like before, when she had something to say, if she thought it was stupid, maybe she wouldn't say it. Or if she thought it was smart, maybe she was like really excited, you know, got ahead of herself or something. But now she sort of says what she has to say, which is exactly what she's supposed to say. Just say what you have to say. That's it. It doesn't have to be good or bad. You have something to say, and sometimes you don't. And that's fine too. You can shut up when you don't have anything to say. You can do that. You don't have to talk. As a matter of fact, you don't have anything to say when you don't have anything to say. When you have something to say, still accordingly,

[39:08]

you might have something to say, but still wait until somebody else finishes their sentence. That would be all right. But then you can talk. It's like what I was saying in the one-day sitting a while ago. You discipline your hands like this for a long time, and you hold your hands in this mudra for a long time, and you feel these hands trying to like be the way you think they should be. And then also, that they're not that way, or they are that way, or they aren't that way, or actually sometimes you just would like them to be some other way. You just face that struggle of your hands in this form for a long time, and your hands gradually become free. They turn into like little dances. They're like baby's hands before babies learn what they're supposed to do with their hands. So the discipline, and feeling the pain of the discipline, which means the pain of facing if you have any, you know, agenda of control, of attachment,

[40:11]

attachment, control, power, that is going on here. You face that, and you face that, and that's the training. And it's now having the support to be able to face it. So you need some enough love to be able to look at this painful picture. So anyway, I'm just saying, I know she'd have really hard times, she'd be having a really hard time, terribly hard time, with this discipline she was in, which was like, you know, it's more like this, you know, I came here to do this, and now they tell me I can't do this even. I have to go like, you know, I don't know, I have to go like this. And this is not Zen, this is not, this is Zen. But they're not letting me do this, I try to do this, you know, or I'm having problems with this, and I want to talk to them about this, and they won't talk to me about it. They say it's not really worth talking about, but I want to talk about it, and so on. That ongoing challenge that gradually you train yourself, and you die. And then you can talk,

[41:13]

and move your hands. Then your hands move when you talk. So anyway, I just saw an example of that recently. And at the time I wasn't exactly happy she was going through the difficulty. What I was happy about was that she could tell me, because the fact that she could tell me, then I knew she was seeing it. It was that she was seeing it that was really what was creating it. And she was having a hard time, but she was seeing it. That means she had the courage to see it. She didn't say, I'm courageous, or I didn't think she was courageous exactly, but she was, because she was looking at it. So on some level, she was being supported to do that hard work. The world was supporting her, she was supported to do that. And she also didn't even, she didn't really understand she was being supported sometimes. She thought she was being tortured. But actually she was being supported

[42:15]

to be tortured. Because the torture was just because things weren't going the way she wanted them to. But she could see it. So now she's pretty free. The problem is that she's not in the torture chamber anymore, so she might slip back into having easy time. That means she won't be able to talk anymore. How are you guys doing? Are you thinking about what's going to happen to you? Are you thinking, do I have to go through that in order to be free? Is that the way it has to be for everybody? I don't know. Maybe there's some other ways, you know. Probably there are. Sun-Face Buddha, Moon-Face Buddha.

[43:16]

Twenty years of bitter struggle. How many times have I gone down into the Green Dragon Cave for you? Clear-eyed, patchwork monks. Don't take this lightly. Maybe you don't have to go through this thing. Maybe you can get there some other way. Maybe there's some like little bit easier way to get there. I don't know. There might be. But if you have to go the hard way, like there's all these, a lot of these people in this Zen tradition, if you have to go the hard way, what do they call it? Take this bitter medicine or this sweet fruit of freedom. If you happen to have to go that way, you get comfortable with the company. Okay? All the Buddhas are with you, rooting for you. They've done the same thing. Pretty much they all did the same practice. But you got to understand you got a lot of support. Otherwise you might not be able to do it. If you're doing it,

[44:19]

then you don't have to understand you got a lot of support because in fact you're accepting the support. But you might, if you're not doing this kind of practice, then you need to get more love on your program so that you can do the work. You'll naturally go down there if you start doing this work. If you start loving yourself, you'll naturally want to find out what's the source of the problems for which I wish myself freedom. I just mentioned this is kind of like current events, which I think apply to this case. Current events, you know what I mean by current events? Current events is this is a person who lives around here who can talk. It's nice. And I'm just telling you not only is this good news that she can talk, but I know her history and it's been a bitter one. And it was bitter right to this point of attachment. And I just want to mention one of the current events that Stuart Cutchins

[45:20]

gave me is an urge to take. And I drink them in the morning and they're very bitter. And I can't remember I'm supposed to take them three times a day or four times a day. I think four times a day I'm supposed to take. But I can't remember to take it during the day so I take it all in the morning. And I asked him, I said, is it okay to take it all? And he said, no, it's better to take it before each meal. But I can't remember to take it before each meal and I often don't have meals. So I said, is it better to take it all all at once in the morning rather than not take it? He said, yeah. So I drank this thing in the morning and it's so bitter and you know, I feel so good to taste something really bitter. I think there's something off if we don't have some do you have some bitterness in your life? If you do, I say I say good. It's for the heart?

[46:30]

We don't have something, yeah. If you go through the day without any bitter, I think you're missing part of your life. Now, you shouldn't necessarily eat something bitter that's poisonous. But some bitter, bitter, I feel so good after I have that, you know, it's like, well, let's go to the Zen door now. Got that over with. I'm not going to see any faces that are as bitter as that. So, I just, just thought I'd mention some bitterness is really helpful. Really helpful. Yeah. It also seems like if you know that bitterness are being in yourself because if not, then you can't relate to other people. Right. Or you, or you can't relate to other people who are having bitterness because you might be afraid of them. Because they might drag you into the land of bitter. Anything else on case 63 that you'd like to discuss? Rin-san?

[47:31]

Letting go a little? Yes. Get a little freedom? Let it go a little bit more? Get a little bit more? That one you mean? Yes. Yeah, go ahead. Well, I think that you interpreted what I said as meaning kind of a half-hearted experience of letting go. Oh, I feel misunderstood. What? Out of purpose. I just wanted to say why I think it's important because it's, you know, it's possible to, you know, in the course of a, of just your ordinary mundane experience to find a little bit of encouragement in maybe, for example, noticing a shift in one's own kind of pattern or habit and noticing what a difference it makes if one actually can't let go of, say, a result or, you know, or a desire

[48:45]

or whatever in such a small way. I think that that is what's incredibly encouraging and gives a person kind of the, you know, incentive to keep practicing because otherwise, you know, things might get out. And so that's what I meant because not that it could be confused with something like a film like Major Awakening but, you know, I think it's important. Uh-huh. Yeah, every little step you take down towards the cave actually is kind of, every time you take a step, you know, you say, well, I got a little closer to the cave and I'm still okay. Okay? Yeah, that's pretty good. You sort of check your breath out and take a nice step. Every step you get closer, it's encouraging, yeah. And now I'm actually in the cave and there's the dragon. I just stand here for a little while. Okay, now I'm going to take a step towards the dragon. But every step you take, I think that

[49:46]

increases your confidence and very encouraging, yes. Thank you. It's just a little question, but wasn't there something about boiling the oil or... Yeah. I don't remember that. What was that? I think, I said it, didn't I? Yes. I can't remember what you said. Well, they're down at the bottom of the mountain, they're down at the bottom of, towards the mountain so, so, Jojo goes up the mountain and hangs out there waiting for Tozu to come back. So Tozu comes back carrying some oil. Okay, and then Jojo says, goes and sees him and says, well, I've heard about you for a long time, I've heard about Tozu for a long time, but now I just see an old man carrying oil. And Tozu says, you don't see Tozu,

[50:48]

you see an old man carrying oil. Or you see an old man carrying oil, you don't see Tozu. And Jojo says, well, what is Tozu? And he says, oily oil. Or oil, oil, oily. It's oil, [...] you can read that as oily oil or oil, oil. And then, he says, well, I thought I would repeat it, you can steal it from me. Okay? Anything else on Case 63? Yes? I keep feeling like these guys were like really great musicians at the time. Musicians, yes. Yeah, they were very rhythmical and they were musicians and they were enjoying playing together. Yeah, I think some good musicians can see good musicians even in a different form. You know? Like someone like a cello

[51:48]

player, maybe a really great cello player can see somebody, maybe can see a, what do you call it, a Rastafarian musician that's really good. What do you call that kind of music? Reggae. Reggae. So Yo-Yo Ma probably can appreciate reggae when it's really, really good. But they also, I think, really good musicians can see then students as musical. So I think these guys were musicians in this, you know, with their bodies and their voices that were making this music. Uh-huh. Yes? Vernon? Just correct me that when you said oil, Yo-Yo already knew to ask him the question about what you kind of, I'm not going to break that. Why? Yeah. Because he had already given him the answer so he was basically asking something that he knew the guy already had the answer to. Yes. Yeah,

[52:51]

they were already, they were already doing it and he could see the other guy already knew the answer but he asked it anyway. And even though he already knew he knew, it's like, you know, sometimes you ask somebody something and you know what they're going to say but when they say it it still amazes you. you know, see, I'm going to ask them if they're going to say that and you ask them and they say it and it still surprises you. It's like when they actually say it and it's even more amazing sometimes when they say just what you thought and it's totally different than what you ever could have imagined even though they said exactly the same words. I thought when you get married. Yeah. Okay. Was there anything else in this case you wanted to bring up before we go to the next one? Okay. Oh yes, Wes? Um, you talked about

[53:52]

arriving at AMI being hard for you to work on, but it seems like when you say that there may be an impact on you and that you can't trust the sound of the traffic and sound of the traffic and that doesn't that you can't trust the sound of you have to maintain that confidence that So in the beginning I didn't have it. Well, in surrounding the story, there could be instruction about how to read the story.

[55:07]

If you're in the light, there can be instruction about how to read a story, which is saying that you have to be in the light. And there could be further instruction about how to read the story about that. It's true? What you're saying? They're trying to tell you how to read the story? You're reminding me to study the story in the spirit of dying, is that what you're saying? I don't know, because I'm not really a person, I guess I associate, you know, I thought, if you're associating with the light, then you're in the light.

[56:11]

Intellectualizing is reading the light? Yes, that's right. I guess I associate that with another form. The light is the realm of attachment. Yes, that's right. But the realm of attachment is where you go from the realm of non-attachment. So, for me, actually, coming to life is attachment. Coming to life, that you arrive in daylight, is the only way to develop the realm of attachment. The realm of daylight is the realm of attachment, but you may actually understand and be coming

[57:14]

from understanding of non-attachment as you enter and move in the realm of attachment. Now, you can take away the name, you can stop calling the realm of daylight the realm of attachment, you can just not call it that if you want to, but that's what it is for almost everybody. It's the realm of attachment. It's the realm where you can attach. The realm of sex is not necessarily a place where everybody's having sex all the time, but it's the realm where you can have sex. So I'm just saying, I don't want to force this, but the realm of attachment, the realm of light is the same. After death, when you come into the realm of attachment, you come into the realm of light. It's in the realm of attachment that you teach non-attachment. It's in the realm of attachment that you practice after the great death. That's what I'm saying. Does that make sense to you?

[58:16]

Are you talking about something totally different that I'm not understanding? Well, it sounds like I was mishearing. I was thinking, like, to arrive and come to life, means something corresponds to can't go, you should arrive. If they should be alive, if they should not arrive, how would you do it? You should arrive. And then on top of that, you have to bring the realization I appreciate bringing the realization that you experience death,

[59:22]

which is the same as the experience of death, you are arriving as a non-attachment. So I guess that's right. To me, there is a realm of attachment. And I guess the reason I brought that up, in some sense, it's going to go back forth in the daylight. No matter how long it takes, you want that can't go, you should arrive, you should be active, you should be free, you should be, you should be, you are, yes, right at that,

[60:25]

that, and, follow that. Yes. You got the text suggesting you should, should not? You got the text suggesting you should not do what? Arrive. Yes. And that type of thing, you know, this is another condition. Words are a ladder, if you go up the roof, once you're on the roof, you're in the light, you can't get in the light, it's not the light. And you seem to think the ladder is necessary when you're on the roof. You know, I'm not saying the ladder is necessary when you're on the roof. And I'm not saying the ladder is necessary when you're on the ground.

[61:34]

I'm saying, you need to use, words, words, because, they're the light. But they're not, like, to get you somewhere. They're just to put you in the world, so, but you're not dead anymore. Wittgenstein said, any place that you need a ladder to get to, I'm not interested in. I don't want to go any place I need to use a ladder for. I would say the same. Anything else on this case? Anything else?

[62:39]

Well, I would say, I say this, I think, instead of saying I wouldn't go any place I need a ladder for, I would say, I'm not interested in any place that I need a ladder to get to. I'm not interested in anything I need a ladder, I need anything to get there. I want to deal with this. A ladder would be like trying to get somewhere that you're not? No, a ladder would be like, I need something outside the situation to get to the situation. I like to be in a situation that's whole, deal with the whole situation, rather than being part of the situation, and then be told that I can use a ladder to get to some other part of the situation, or some other situation. I don't mind ladders, ladders are fine, but I'm just not interested in some place that you need a ladder to get to. See the difference?

[63:51]

I'm interested in places, but if you tell me I need a ladder to get to the place, then I lose interest. And I say, well, let's deal with the ladder in this place, rather than the place that you can get to by the ladder. For me, a ladder is like, you know... A bridge? Huh? Like a bridge? Yeah, it's like a bridge. You can use a bridge to any place you need a bridge to get to, I'm not interested in it. However, I don't mind bridges. Bridges are fine. Buddhism is basically a bridge. It just says not to get someplace. What about the top bunk? What? What about the top bunk? Top bunk? Bunk. Bunk. On a bed. In a bunk bed? It's a top bunk in a bunk bed. It's the best? Sorry. There's no ladder on a bunk bed down in our place.

[64:58]

The kids have to scramble to get up. Oh, I see. And they think the top one's the best? I thought the bottom one was the best. No, it's not. Maybe I thought the bottom one was the best because I had the top one. But I was always sort of envious of my little sister who had this kind of like negro fort down there. Yeah. Fortunately, you don't need a ladder to get to the top bunk. Anything else on this case? OK, this next case, it seems to me.

[65:52]

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