Okay, so we say the names of the people. Lots of new people. So, I know some names. Donna. Kirk. Jennifer. And Gina. What's your last name? Alistair. Linda. What's your last name? Aroyan. And Marion. And Dorothy. Lynn. Pat. Patricia. And ... it's not Wanda. It's Sonia. Misha. Marion. Tasha. Wendy. Barbara. Sandra.

[01:09]

Here. Diane. And Maheen. And Martha. And Melissa. And Mari. Marcy. Marcy. Martha. Melissa and Marcy. And Susan. Tayo. Kathy. Kosho. Martha. Carolyn. Lois. Lloyd. Linda. Darryl. Walter. And this is a great name. What's your name? Rose. Can we say Rose? Rose. Leslie. Stephen. Sally. Liz. Toby. June. Gloria.

[02:25]

Gloria. Bill. Gloria. Bill. Joni. And Annette. Mio. Poo. Grace. And back behind Mio is Patricia. Patricia. And Cara. Cara. And Keith. Keith. And ... I forgot. Kath. Kath. And Lynn. Lynn. And in front of Lynn is Marissa. Marissa. And Robin back there by the stove. Robin. And next to Robin, Neil. Behind Neil, Jordan. Okay, bye. Thanks for coming. And Christina. Harriet. Katherine. M. Andy. Max. Ahim. Carrie. And Stuart.

[03:49]

Herb. Herb. What's your name again? Gina. Linda? No. Linda? Linda. Linda. Okay. Now how many ... are some of you people guests at Green Gulch or something? How many of you are guests at Green Gulch? Okay. How long have you been here? A day or so? Well, maybe I should tell you about this class. Don't. I'm going to try. Okay, I won't. I'll ask you, what did you hear about this class? Anything? Did you hear anything about this class? What did you hear?

[05:02]

I heard that you ask everybody their name. And then everybody says the person's name after you ask them their name. That's all I heard. Extraordinarily accurate and informative. So is that all you people, new people heard about it? She just came to see what it was? Yeah. Well, it's ... one of the things this class is about is about what's called non-dual meditation. Non-dual meditation.

[06:12]

And enlightenment, perfect enlightenment is a combination of two things. One is a great compassion for all beings. That's one thing. And the other thing is non-dual meditation. Those two things together make great enlightenment or great awakening. The people, you know, the regular residents here at Green Gulch and the other regular members of this class who live around Green Gulch and in San Francisco and are members of this community, these are people who are primarily dedicated to saving the world. And benefiting all beings. So they have in common a vow to live for the welfare of the world. That's their compassionate vow.

[07:22]

Of course, occasionally we forget about that and do petty things, but basically that's our intention, which everybody shares pretty much, basically. However, being human beings, we also have, you know, various dualistic thoughts. We get confused and we sometimes imagine that compassion is something, like a thing. And if we do that, then the whole project backfires. So, in order to, and here comes Claire, in order to be successful in realizing compassion in this world, in order to be successful at bringing into manifestation this vow to live for, to actually live beneficially for all beings, we also have to understand the nature of life. Namely, that it's empty. That it has no inherent existence. Otherwise, we make the whole project into another thing and we get into all kinds of self-righteousness and burnout and many problems occur to someone who is dedicated to the welfare of beings unless they practice non-dual meditation.

[08:41]

And non-dual meditation is a meditation which is not to try to make yourself into a good person, but to realize that you're a good person. Not to take the point of view that you're a piece of trash and you try to make yourself into a diamond, but to somehow open your eyes and see that you're a diamond, or pure gold, or pure compassion, or whatever. Dualistic, there's also dualistic meditations which are good, which take people, which come from the point of view of people got problems and they make people have less problems and less problems and less problems and less problems, until finally you're great. The problem of that particular approach is that you're basically starting right off disrespecting yourself and also you disrespect other people too, especially those who aren't in the program. Whereas non-dual meditation is nice because right off you start respecting yourself and also you respect other people. I mean, at least that's the theory.

[09:49]

The problem with non-dual meditation is very difficult to understand because it's not our ordinary point of view. It's a total reversal of the usual way of thinking. So we don't exactly understand non-dual meditation. It's very difficult to understand it. So this class is to help us understand non-dual meditation and we have lots of Zen stories here about teaching us about this meditation which we call Zazen or whatever you want to say. So this class emphasizes insight into the emptiness of the separation between us. It tries to have insight into the delusion that we're separate beings or the delusion that we in Buddhists or we in enlightened beings are two different animals. We try to cut through that separation by insight. So that's the kind of class it is. So it's a strange class because basically we're already done. You see? You're already a success.

[11:05]

So that's why we have these stories. These are stories for successful people to read and enjoy. This is kind of like the golf for Buddhas or something like that. Or cooking for a Buddha or gardening for a Buddha or whatever. So this class has been going on for a few years and the intention of this class is to finish this book of 100 stories. And lately we've been moving rather rapidly. We're on case 20 now. So shall we read case 20? If people don't want these copies, you can give them back and we can give them to some other needy people.

[12:18]

I'll send some over. See, another part of this class is passing out copies of the text. You can tell that to people too when they ask. So another definition of non-dual meditation is to be aware of the fact that passing out pieces of paper is not different from the highest form of meditation.

[13:21]

So ordinarily, from an ordinary human point of view, it would be wasting time passing out this paper. Let's hurry up and read this text. We don't have much time left. We can't afford to waste any more time. Let's learn something here. Ditsang's Nearness. Introduction. The profound talk. You can read it if you want out loud. Profound talk. Ditsang asked Kalyan, where are you going? Kalyan said, around the pilgrimage. Ditsang said, what is the purpose of pilgrimage? Kalyan said, I don't know. Ditsang said, I'm not knowing his nearness.

[14:40]

So as I mentioned also, if you want to learn more about Kalyan, right in this book, he's also a main character in Case 12. Not in the case, but in the commentary on the case. And also Case, what is it? 17? Case 17, Kalyan's Hare's Breath. So in Case 12, Ditsang is talking to Shushan, and then Shushan and Fayan are Dharma brothers studying with Ditsang there. And then in Case 17, Shushan and Fayan have a talk, and here Ditsang and Fayan are talking again. So these three cases are very closely intertwined, so you might read these three cases together to get a feeling for these people.

[15:55]

What does numanam mean? What does it mean? Well, the first thing that comes to mind is it means light. We had a discussion about this in the city, about what it means. It sort of goes with phenomenon. Numanam and phenomenon. The Chinese character here that's translated as numanam is a character in Chinese pronounced li, in Japanese ri. And one side of the character means jade, and the other side of the character, I don't know what it means. But anyway, together they mean the lines in jade. If you look at a piece of jade, it has lines in it. The lines in the stone are called the principle of the stone. It's where it breaks. It's where it comes together and comes apart. So it's like the principle or the logic or the reason of the stone. A stone has a reason that you can see.

[17:09]

So phenomena have reason or logic. And what is the logic of phenomena that I've told you many times? Completely empty, yes, but a logical statement. DCA. DCA, yes, but a logical statement. Because A is A. The fact that a phenomena is itself that phenomena implies that it is not that phenomena. That's the logic. That's the liberative logic of all phenomena. That's the numanam of all things. In other words, everything has light. Every person has light. Everything has light, has radiance, is numinous. And what is it about a thing that's numinous? Not its characteristics, its essence.

[18:18]

But its essence is the fact that it is itself. That is its radiance. And that fact that it's itself implies that it is not itself. In other words, that it's liberated from itself. In other words, that it turns into light. That's numina or numina. Is that true that all things have light? Is that true? Well, that's what Buddha said. In fact, that's what Buddha is. Buddha is that light of all things. Does that sofa have light? Are you saying that sofa has light? Yeah, I'll say that the sofa has light. Yunmun, the great teacher, says, you all have light. What is your light? He said to the monks, and no one said anything. And Yunmun said, the front gate, the meditation hall, the kitchen pantry.

[19:20]

And in particular, your delusion is great brightness. This is instruction in non-dual meditation. Dualistic meditation or dualistic thinking is, some things have light and some things don't. Some things are good and some things aren't. Non-dual meditation is to look to see how everything is, is radiance, is vastness, is bottomlessness, is the principle how each thing has within it the principle of release. Everything can show you how to be free. Well, I didn't want to talk about this, but she asked.

[20:29]

So, the implication of this instruction is that we should give everything our utmost attention, or just our complete attention, and that we should be very thorough about everything in our little old life. In every moment. Shall we? We did look at the case, didn't we? So that's that. You want to read a little bit of commentary? Watch out for this commentary. Keep your eyes, not too wide open, just, you know, relax, because there's a lot of light popping out of this commentary. Yes, Martha? I was just remembering reading the case again, where I, as I read it, I heard Fayan whistling. And it had to do with the answer to the first question, where are you going? He said, around, on a pilgrimage.

[21:52]

And the word around struck me as something of, like he was just kind of going, and it says somewhere in the book, roaming serenely in the land, between kind of birth and death, and touching and turning away, and light and dark. And he wasn't going on a pilgrimage to a place to see a person, and there is something very, very relaxed as I read around on a pilgrimage. Around on a pilgrimage, not even a pilgrimage. And it was interesting, later in the book, on the added saying, it says, just as he said that, he had to go look for money for sandals. Which is as if he didn't have even, not only the sandals, but the money for sandals. And the question was asked, and he had to answer something. So he just said around on a pilgrimage. Almost that was too much. Almost what was too much?

[22:53]

Having to say that, having to sort of land somewhere for him, around on a pilgrimage, was as filled with light as he could be, and just kind of whistling around. Could you hear what she said? I hear that, and I hear what you're saying reflected in this first part of the commentary. How long has it been since we last met? Purang says, seven years. Mr. Yang said, have you been studying away, engrossed in meditation? Purang said, I don't play that kind of drum. Mr. Yang said, then you wander for nothing over mountains and rivers, incapable of anything. Purang said, while you haven't been apart for long, you should reflect on life. Mr. Yang laughed aloud.

[24:01]

So this is more discussion of non-dual meditation. In particular, how long has it been since we last met? This is instruction in non-dual meditation. Do you understand? Well, shall I explain? It's going to be less interesting after I explain. Anyway, usually when we say to each other, how long has it been since we last met, well, do we think at that time that this is the realization of Buddhahood? Do we think at that time that this sentence and each word of it are the opportunity for realizing Buddha's way? Do we think so?

[25:13]

Because we're busy thinking it's been five years, it's been two days. Right. Or even that such talk, such lowly chatter wouldn't be the time and place for realizing the great way of all Buddhists, right? It can't come down to this, can it? Now, you may not think that you're going around thinking that, that you're actually saying the sentence and at the same time there's somebody coming along saying, you know, this is not that much fun to say this sentence. This sentence is not actually the realization of the way of liberation for all beings. You don't notice that person saying that, but you know somebody's saying that? Somebody's telling you that this is not when you're going to realize Buddhahood. However, that conversation is the same kind of conversation, that talk I'm telling you about that might be there, is the same as how long has it been since we've last talked? Same kind of talk. That also, that sentence of this isn't good enough situation for realizing the way, that's another good place, that's another instruction in non-dual meditation.

[26:19]

So, when he says that to the teacher, he's discussing non-dual meditation, I say to you. And, well, I'll stop there for now. I'll go on to the next sentence if you want to talk about this one. When you said that this was instruction in non-dual meditation, it seemed like you meant that this was particularly instruction in non-dual meditation in a way that some other sentence was not. But it seems like that's not what you're saying. Very good point. Thank you so much. If it's instruction in non-dual meditation, it's not like instruction in non-dual meditation more than the sentence that he just said or more than the sentence I'm just saying, or more than the sentences that are running through your heads right now. Can you say that again?

[27:29]

Well, he said that when I said that you might have thought that that sentence that I just pointed to as instruction in non-dual meditation, that that was more an instruction in non-dual meditation than most of the other sentences you see around town. He said that. And I said that's a good point because that's exactly what ... if it is instruction in non-dual meditation, it's not a better instruction than the other ones you run into. And that's why I chose that one, because it doesn't look like it. It's a perfectly poor candidate for you people to think that that would be instruction in the kind of meditation that a Buddha does. It's not unlike the first one, where are you going? It's a simple glance every day. Where you're going looks a little bit fancier, because when Zen teachers say to you, where are you going, watch out. You already know that one, right? That's a famous one. They always say that. In other words, everything you say ... well, I shouldn't say everything you say, but as you say the words you say throughout the day, as you say them at that time, using that opportunity, that's called non-dual meditation.

[28:47]

That's the nature of non-dual meditation, is you're using this. So of course, every sentence here is instruction in non-dual meditation, and every sentence here is an example of non-dual meditation. Is every sentence that I say instruction? In non-dual meditation. You are walking around giving instruction in non-dual meditation all day long. If a Buddha hears you talk, a Buddha keeps hearing instruction in how to be a Buddha when the Buddha hears you, or me, or you. So it's talking, walking? It's talking also. It means walking. So as you walk, every step you take, as you take a step, that is instruction in non-dual meditation. And the one who sees it as instruction in non-dual meditation is called Buddha, or at least is called one who has insight into non-dual meditation.

[29:56]

If that person also has a deep vow to benefit all beings, the combination of seeing you teaching the great way with that vow causes the realization of the Buddha way. But still, Furong then answers, seven years, yes? That's it. How long has it been since the last meeting? Yes. That too. That's part of what non-dual meditation does, is non-dual meditation always shows duality. Non-dual meditation never runs away from duality. Dualistic meditations try either to improve the quality of duality, to make negotiations about duality, like to get yourself in a better neighborhood of duality, or whatever, or to try to get away from duality because duality is a cause of problems.

[31:09]

But non-dual meditation simply shows, first of all, duality, like for example, past and present, future. It shows something like that. That's an example, that's an occasion for non-dual meditation. In other words, time. In other words, being. Would that be the same as numinant? Is what the same as numinant? The act of dual meditation, dual action, also has in it the non-duality, the other side. Dualistic thinking or dualistic whatever, itself, is liberated from itself.

[32:15]

So, the moment he asks the question of how long has it been? There's sort of an act of, or a waste of breath, or a waste of the question, by asking that question, it's dualistic. But at the same time, there is a knowing that goes along with that, that it is dualistic. Is that? I don't know. I think you are, but I think what you said was, what do you call it?

[33:31]

I think you added a little extra in there, about this knowing going along with it. That's not, that's kind of like what, it's a separate agenda, which is a thing in itself, which you can become liberated from. It's not the thing itself, it's another thing, and both of them, in themselves, can be great opportunities. Everything comes along with each thing, not like some things comes along with each thing. Not like this thing comes with some special stuff. Everything comes with each thing. That's why each thing is saved. That's why?

[34:34]

That's why everything is saved from itself. Still, I've got to read this couple more sentences here, because they keep doing it. Have you been studying the way, engrossed in meditation? So, you know, in fact, we have this Zen center right here, and we're actually studying the way. Everything, all of us do, every moment of the day is instruction and demonstration of non-dual meditation. Everything. And yet, we have places like this, where we say stuff like that, and then we study non-dual meditation, even though everything is demonstrating it. So, in one sense, one way to rephrase this question of this layperson to this Zen teacher is,

[35:38]

are you doing the paradoxical thing of studying and engrossing yourself in meditation? And he says, I don't play that fife and drum. Now, he could have said, yes, I am engrossed, but he didn't. He said, I'm not studying the way, and I'm not involved, engrossed in meditation. Well, only because he's studying thoroughly. He's engrossed. Yeah. So, why did he say that instead of saying, yes, I am? Well, he could have said, yes, I am.

[36:40]

You know, you can't stop these people from saying, yes, I am. They can say that. But, in fact, sometimes, if you're doing something, like studying the way, and you're really doing it thoroughly, and somebody says to you, you're studying the way, somehow, because you're studying it so thoroughly, you really feel like you've got to say, no, I'm not involved in that. And because you're so thoroughly engrossed in meditation, when somebody asks you, you feel like you've got to say, no, I'm not doing that. If you were involved in it a little, then you might be able to say, yeah. And if you weren't involved at all, you could also say, no, I'd like to be, I know I should be, but I'm not. Isn't this also a way of saying, I'm not involved in your idea?

[37:43]

It's also that. It's also that. Or, I don't have an idea, but I am involved. Well, yeah, it could be that, that you don't have an idea, but I don't think that's as much fun as having the idea, and be so thoroughly involved, that you blow the bottom of it out. Or, somehow you can't go along with the other person's idea of it. And it's not that you think, well, you're just coming in here with this big old idea, trying to lay that trip on me, and I'm not going to play with you. It's more like, I care so much about you, that I've got to tell you something. It ain't like that. It ain't like that. It's more wonderful than that. And because I'm so thoroughly involved, I want to tell you how wonderful it is, and the only way I can tell you is to say no. No means that we can really use this opportunity here.

[38:44]

I don't have to answer that question, yes, of course I'm meditating. And if I'm not, of course I'm super guilty for not doing it. But actually, either way, I'm so into it, that I have some good news to you, and the answer is no. You start also saying there's nothing holy here. Nothing holy here. It's so holy, there's nothing holy. I mean, this is real holiness. This is like what you call real. This is like holiness that doesn't make you sick. This is like holiness that you don't possess, and somebody else has less of it than you. It's not that kind of holiness. This is real good holiness. This is the kind that the other people have. But still, it's so fantastic, they don't even have it. It's just you can't hurt it with your little brain.

[39:49]

But still, when people ask you about it and you're really engrossed in it, you say no. Ah, it's so alive. No, I don't play that. And then he says, then you wander for nothing over mountains and rivers, incapable of anything. And again, this is instruction in non-dual meditation, and this is such a compliment. This is the way Buddhists talk about each other. What else can they say? You know, geez, you did a really nice job there saving those people yesterday. Well, actually, in some sutras they say that. In some sutras they say, and then Buddha saved incalculable, uncountable, inconceivable myriads of billions of worlds of beings. They say that in the sutras, which is beautiful.

[40:51]

And you think about that, it just really warms your heart and just makes you glow. And you just keep thinking about that kind of thing over and over and over. It's just wonderful meditation. And there are books like that where they talk about what the Buddhas do. And you get into that and that creates this wonderful state of mind. This particular kind of instruction is not the kind, this is the kind of instruction, which is to actually have you cut through and actually feel, actually see this, this mind. So you say, you say to the Buddha, so you've just been wandering around these mountains, you know, not doing anything, wasting your time, incapable of anything. And guess what? They talk to Buddhas like that and guess who else that applies to? Besides the Buddhas. Do you know anybody else that applies to? All of us, every single solitary one of us. So that's again, non-dual meditation. It applies to Buddhas. Buddhas are incapable of doing anything.

[41:54]

It's not, they don't do anything. Buddhas do absolutely nothing. It's the other people that do the stuff. Everybody else gets enlightened. The Buddhas can't do anything. So what you can say to a Buddha, what these Zen people say about the Buddhas, about the Zen masters, they say also, it can be said about everybody. And then he says, while we haven't been apart for long, you can sure reflect on high. So anyway, then you laugh, and they wrote this down. In words, well, they didn't write it down right away. People talked about it for a long time, and then they wrote it down in books, and now we're reading it. What's this got to do with not knowing is most intimate.

[43:06]

It's like wandering into nothing. Incapable of that. Then he quotes this famous story of Nanjuan, where it says, the way is not in knowing, nor in not knowing. Knowing is false consciousness, or delusion, and not knowing is indifference. That's the quote. And does anybody care to recite the whole story? You say sure? Go ahead. Do you want to? To read this? No, to recite the full story that this is from. Do you know that story? No. Well, this is part of a little bit longer story. There was a monk named Nanjuan here, see, and he had a great disciple named Zhaozhou. So Zhaozhou says to Nanjuan,

[44:14]

What is the way? Same question here. What is pilgrimage? And Nanjuan says, Ordinary mind is the way. Or everyday mind is the way. What is the Buddha way? The way of compassion and non-dual meditation. What is that way? The ordinary mind is the way. So then Zhaozhou says, Well, how do you know whether you're turning towards it or away? And Nanjuan says, It's not a matter of knowing or not knowing. Not knowing is just blank consciousness or indifference.

[45:17]

And knowing is just delusion or false consciousness. When you find the place, you find it. But those thoughts do occur around the way. That's part of the landscape of our practice. Yeah. What is choice around? What is choice around? What? Where does it arise? It arises every single moment. Pardon? The choice is spontaneous, not... Choice is spontaneous, right. That's right. Then students have trouble believing that, and so do everybody else.

[46:22]

But before you choose, you don't choose. And after you choose, it's all over. It's like you don't choose, and then you choose. It's like that. There's no choosing. There's just choice. Choice, choose, choice, choice, choice, choice. Dasha, did you have a question? You just moved your hand. That could be a major digression. Yes? So where does ordinary mind fit into knowing or not knowing? Where does ordinary mind fit in? Well... You're saying there is something called mind, and there's a knowing mind... I'm not saying... No, no, I'm not saying there is something called mind. I'm not saying that. Okay? I'm not saying there is something called mind. I would say there is calling mind.

[47:24]

Right? We call mind quite frequently, don't we? We call body. But I don't say there is a thing called body, and there is a thing called mind. I don't say that. What is it? I don't say that there is a thing called ordinary mind. But if you ask me what the way is, I call it. But I don't say there is a thing I'm calling. What is ordinary mind? I'm pointing to ordinary mind. What is ordinary mind? Hmm? Do you know what that is? That's not there. Yeah, well... Look, look, where is ordinary mind? Do you see it? No. What do you see? I see a lot of confusion. That's ordinary mind. And that's the way. That's the way. What? You shook your head? What do you want?

[48:28]

What do you want? You got ordinary mind? Did you find ordinary mind? Or did you get a glimpse of ordinary mind, Sally? I have a notion of it, maybe, kind of, sort of. Yeah. But even without your notion, I said, you know, that the confusion there is ordinary mind. Okay? And what is confusion? What do you see? Not knowing that that is so. Hmm. Not knowing that what is so. Ordinary mind is confusion.

[49:29]

You don't know that ordinary mind is confusion? Correct. And that's ordinary mind? I think that's the drift where this is going. Well, that's right. You're right. An example of ordinary mind is that you think you don't understand, you have this idea that you don't understand that confusion is ordinary mind. Correct. And you have this ordinary mind which thinks that confusion is not the Buddha way. Correct. See? I'm wrong. Yes, you're not only wrong, not only you're wrong, but that wrongness right there is the Buddha way. And if you don't agree, that non-agreement is the Buddha way. And the Buddha way says, please come into the house of Buddha because people like you are what Buddhism is for. People who have confusion

[50:33]

and don't believe that that Buddha way is there, these are the people Buddhism was created for. And Buddhas wake up in the middle of that kind of confusion. That's one example. There's a wide variety of confusions, right? We have other ones, don't we? We have other ones. All of them as they occur are exactly where the Buddha way must be realized. And there's no other place other than that confusion. I say. That's what I say. This is non-dual meditation I'm teaching, okay? Other people teach other kinds, some kind, like dualistic meditation. So fortunately somebody else is teaching that kind if you want to hear about that kind. And you may like dualistic meditation better. This class is a non-dual meditation.

[51:34]

Which is harder to understand, isn't it? Case 17, Harris-Briggs deviation. You're very close. All of you are very... Just a slight adjustment in your thinking and you'll be right on. Because you don't have to get rid of your brain. You don't have to have different thoughts than you're having right now. Everybody, the thought you're having right now, you could wake up right now. You could wake up right now. So could I. Yes. Well, it never really was. And the waking up is understanding that. Yes. It never really was. The ordinary mind never really was.

[52:38]

And in what there never really was is where we practice. And the never really was is happening all the time and never stops. Things that aren't really there are constantly appearing. And that's where we practice. And because they're not really there, we don't say, say, well this is not really there so I'm not going to pay attention to this because this is just, you know, trashy old phenomenon, you know, illusion. No. We give it our full, thorough attention as though it were really where we're going to practice. As though this is where the lotus is going to pop out right here. And the mind that looks at what's happening as though the lotus might pop here, that mind is the mind of the way. And there ain't no such thing as any of that. And if you're a little bit confused about that

[53:42]

or a lot confused about that, that's where the way unfolds too. And if you're completely clear about it, well then you're completely clear that the way is unfolding and you're happy. Then you're happy. And if you have a little bit of doubt, then you're, you can be really unhappy even a little bit of doubt. Because again, a Hare's breath deviation can be a big separation. And you can build mountains of pain on that little bit of doubt, that little bit of fudging, that little bit of, it can't be, I'm not going to use this to wake up. How you doing?

[54:44]

One happy, yes? I still have a question, and it's about, like, why do we do rounds of breath while we haven't been apart for long? I don't understand that. Why you said, you know, why we haven't been apart for very long, you mean because you think seven years is a long time? Huh? Yeah. No, that's not why. I just don't understand, like, the spirit in which it was done. I don't even understand whether it was positive or negative. It was just like, the whole thing was a real positive thing. When I first read it, I thought it was just kind of a negative thing. You know, like they were kind of contradicting each other, that they're not related. Well, in one, one way to read it, okay, when there's light, okay, when there's light in it, when there's light in what we say, then there's a tremendous amount of color coming into, coming into it. When there's light, then any interpretation is welcome.

[55:52]

Okay? So if I see light in here, I see millions and trillions of interpretations coming to this place. So one of the interpretations is, yeah, and one interpretation is, Fulron is saying, you're a dummy. That's one of the interpretations. Another interpretation is, he's saying, when you talk, when you say to me that I'm wasting time, you're recognizing, you're talking at a very high level now. When you talk, when you come and tell, when people come and tell me that I'm incapable of anything, when people come and tell me that I'm crazy, then I feel like, now, this is the level I like to talk on. In other words, you know about me. And I can say, you know, you are really talking on a high level now.

[56:54]

Or I could be saying, being ironic and saying, you know, you're talking on a high level and be putting you down. But still, Fulron, one interpretation of Fulron is, because this guy is so close to him, again, he needs to sort of like put him down to express his love. What's the matter? I'm just reading it. I'm thinking, is that why he's being angry? Yeah, I think. Sort of like a compliment? Yeah, definitely a compliment. But it's, there's two ways it can be a compliment, okay? One way it can be a compliment is an ironic statement. In other words, he's saying you're talking on a high level but really he means you're talking on a low level and that's a compliment to say he's talking on a low level, okay?

[57:55]

The other way for it to be a compliment is he really means he's talking on a high level. It's not so high level to say, are you engrossed in meditation? That's rather, you know, an ordinary level to talk to a Buddhist, right? Are you practicing zazen every day? Sincerely? It's a fairly straightforward statement, right? Which, you know, you might say to me, I might say to you, sincerely ask if that's the case. But again, as I said before, if I should happen to ask you someday, when you happen to be really practicing zazen and I just happen to come upon you or you happen to come upon me and I should say to you, are you practicing zazen? And if you really were, you might say to me, finally you asked at the right moment. You finally asked me and I can tell you, I can tell you, no! You know? And you might be very happy when you told me that.

[58:58]

And then I might say, ah, Marisa, you're finally incapable of anything. And you might say, no. And you might mean it, you know, either way. And there's millions of other interpretations too that would be lots of fun to make. From the point of view that these are two Buddhas talking, there's two Buddhas talking. One's a layman and one's a priest. But these are Buddhas talking. That's the way I'm reading it. Okay? When you read on a non-dual level, you see all conversations as how Buddhas are talking. Even if they're angry at each other. You see that. In this case, it's pretty clear. It's a simple one. They're harder ones. This is a nice one. This is that... Yes? Yeah, it seemed to me that part of it was that in order... like they were actually saying, look, I'm going to relate to you. Yeah. And in order to do that, they sort of have to argue.

[60:00]

Right. You know. Contact. These are contact sports, so to speak. Verbal contact, mostly. Hmm? I would say sometimes they break each other's fingers. Yeah, sometimes they break each other's fingers. What is that in Confessions? That... What do you call it? The... The proof is in the pudding. Yeah. If the person's benefited, it must be a pretty big benefit to have a broken finger be a benefit. But these people are going for, you know, major love, so sometimes they take these big chances to exp... Well, like, if somebody says to me, you know, are you practicing meditation? And I say, no, that might confuse them. You know, like, they might say, oh, Jesus, you're practicing all this time and you're still not practicing? Well, Jesus, this is very depressing.

[61:04]

You know? So it's a little risky for me to say that, even though my true answer is no. So, like, someone may say to me, you know, is your meditation practice, now after practicing for such and such a number of years, is your meditation practice getting pretty good? And I might say, well, no, it's not too good. And, I mean, that's... The reason why I say that is because my meditation practice has finally gotten good enough so that I know it's no good. You know? Before that, I thought it was pretty good. But now I finally see how bad it is. So I say the truth, and I can also finally tell the truth. Before that, after I've been practicing for, you know, ten years or twenty years, I thought, no, they can't. If I tell them, they'll all quit. They'll be discouraging if they know. And now that I've been practicing longer, I can tell the truth. But still it's risky. But before, I didn't tell the truth because I was afraid people would quit,

[62:06]

or get discouraged, or sue me. But now, more and more I tell the truth, even though it's very shocking to you when I do. Well, sometimes it is. The truth is sometimes shocking, right? Sorry. There's also something very playful between the two of them. Like you were saying at first, so you're coursing in form. You're meditating, doing all this. And the guy says, no, I'm not doing that. And then you're coursing in emptiness. Hey, big deal. Yeah. Right. Yeah, like you said. Some men aren't so thick, you know? Right. Like they've been doing this for a long time. Right. I think so. Well, there's more stuff in here. A lot more stuff.

[63:08]

So they said, they're referring to the story. And so, when, when, when Nantuan said, the way is, is not in knowing, or in not knowing. Is that proper English? Start that again. Yeah. Okay. Knowing is false consciousness. Not knowing is indifference. Now, when people hear, it's said, that not knowing is nearest, or most intimate, and that this, is where Fa Yen was enlightened, they immediately go over to, just not knowing, not understanding. Just this is it. They hardly realize, that a phrase of the ancients covers, everywhere, like the sky, supports everywhere, like the earth. If not knowing is, most intimate, then, what about, this is saying,

[64:11]

one word, the one word knowing, is the gate of myriad wonders. Just affirm totally when affirming, but don't settle down in affirming. Deny totally when denying, but don't settle down in denial. Passing through all the five ranks, absolute and relative, how could you die, under a phrase? So there it is again. Do you understand? No? What's your question? Passing through all the five ranks, absolute and relative. Are you wondering what those are? You didn't mean a technical question? I suppose, yeah. Well, there's these five ranks. You heard about them? What's that I recall? Well, it's a kind of systematic presentation, in terms of five ranks, like in the dual mirror samadhi, it says, piled up to make three. The complete transformation makes five. It's like the five-flavored herb,

[65:13]

the diamond thunderbolt. Those five ranks are, you know, the three, piled up to make three, that's like the sandokai. There's form, emptiness, and merging. Okay? So, then you can have, like, emptiness is form, and form is emptiness, and merging. But the complete transformation makes five, which is, the relative coming from the absolute, the absolute coming from the relative, and so on. There's five different relationships of form and emptiness. It's a system. And, it, basically it's saying, that, passing through all these ranks, all these subtleties, how could you die under a phrase? So, in other words, when people first hear about not knowing, their mind usually goes over to this, this not knowing,

[66:13]

which is, you know, an extreme, their reaction to their knowing. That's not what it is, because, let me give the example of, where the other side is, is said to be the way. But basically it says, just affirm totally when affirming. That's it. But don't settle down in it. Just deny totally when denying. Don't settle down in it. So, it's okay to, to know and not know. That's okay. Your mind does that. But just don't settle down in it. That's what's meant by not knowing. Pardon? Deny totally, but don't believe your denial? You mean? Well, if you deny, you take a position. But you don't have to hold to the position.

[67:16]

The mind does take positions. So, what we've talked about again and again, is this thing about not leaking. So you don't, your mind does produce positions. That ordinary mind produces positions. So all of us have positions. Every moment you got positions, you have views. We do that. That's normal. That's ordinary mind. As you, as your mind produces positions, as your mind produces opinions, as your mind produces views, that's where you wake up. You have to learn how to let your mind function as it naturally does, producing positions, producing choices, producing evaluations, constantly doing that. I mean constantly, and rapidly changing in the way it's doing it. I mean we have extremely active biological, you know, production going on here. Yes? I'd like to remind the image of cloud walkers. The cloud walkers.

[68:18]

Not stepping lightly enough, but not stepping too long or too far. Right. Or cloud drivers. Is this reference to the five rank passing through, the five ranks that you talked about in a spontaneous manner, or is it talked about in an over a long period of practice? Or both? Or both? The funny thing about this kind of practice is that you're already, you've already, you know, you've already got it, you're already taking care of it, but you should take care of your health because it's good to live a long time so that you can really understand it. Because although you already understand it, and just don't believe it yet, that your understanding is correct, because it's the kind you should have right now, because that's what you've got. Still,

[69:20]

your understanding can get deeper and deeper and deeper every day, every day, every day. It can get deeper. That's the nature of it. It's complete right now. It's just as it should be. It's perfect. And it can get deeper. So that's why it's good to take care of your health, to enjoy it deepening and deepening and deepening. And sure enough, guess what it feels like when it gets deeper. Guess. What it feels like. Well, that's not a feeling. That's it. Yeah, but how does it feel when it gets deeper? Like... No. Boring, maybe not. Yes, but how does it feel? Boring. Boring? Boring, but how does boring feel? It hurts. It hurts. No, it hurts. Right. It hurts. It hurts. However,

[70:24]

the deciding happy part is born in that hurt. Because the fact that hurt is hurt implies that hurt is not hurt. And the first time we understand, usually it's on hurt. That's for some reason or other... I don't know why it has to be that way, but anyway. That's the way it starts. Other topics will be used later. All topics will be used later. But the first entry in a particular body is through pain. Because that's the one we have the least confidence in. We use the phrase ordinary mind. I'm a bit confused.

[71:25]

Is that a literal translation? Do we literally mean ordinary mind? Word by word. You mean what's the literal translation of that Chinese expression? Yeah. Well, it's interesting, you know. Very interesting, that word, that Chinese word. Because literally what it is is eternally manifesting. Or eternally pervading. That's the two characters. It's a three-character expression. Always or eternally. But also always and eternal can also mean common. And manifesting. And mind or heart. So if the Westerner looks at it, you see those characters and you think... But to Easterner, that means ordinary. So the funny thing about the ordinary mind is it's the mind that pervades everywhere all the time. But by that very reason, it's common.

[72:27]

But Easterners, when they see it, they only see common. Or ordinary. When we, who are learning Chinese, look at it, we see those two characters. But the first one means eternal or always. Or everlasting and then pervading. So the funny thing about the ordinary mind, the ordinary common mind, strangely enough, is the mind that pervades everywhere through all time. That's what the ordinary mind is. These special minds, these high states of yogic attainment, I mean, God bless them, they don't pervade everywhere. They're special artifacts of yogic concentration. Buddha did not wake up in those states. Although Buddha did go visit those states. That's not where Buddha woke up. Buddha woke up in the ordinary mind. He woke up in the mind that pervades all beings. He later, by the way, after waking up,

[73:32]

went to visit those other areas. And when he died, actually, he did the full circuit of all these unordinary minds, came back down to the ordinary mind, and then went up to a semi-precious mind just because he wanted to give himself a natural sedative because he was in pain. Was that okay that I said that? But he was awakened, and he taught that all Buddhas are awakened in the ordinary mind. They are awakened in the mind of ordinary suffering because that's the mind that gives rise to the desire to drop everything, to drop all attachments. If you go in these higher states, you could give rise to the mind that wants to drop all attachment, but it's less likely because it's so great up there. And if you go in a deep enough hell, you're too frightened and confused and upset

[74:33]

to even think of this subtle thing about dropping. You more want to get rid of. But there's a state of mind which is this ordinary mind for a human being, which all human beings have right on the tip of their fingers. That mind is the mind which you can see, you know, basically, it's not going to work to try to fix this up. The thing to do is actually just to renounce the whole trip. So I don't know if that helped you at all, Darrell. Do you have any further questions? No, that helped, but I still... It troubles me when I still see an equation being done. I still think this ordinary mind is not confused or... You know, I think it's like the moment before thoughts or that kind of thing. Like the phrase mountains are mountains...

[75:35]

Yeah, it is. It is that kind. You're right. Mountains are not mountains. No, you're right. It is that kind. The first and third phrases are not the same. There is a difference there, right? Right. The ordinary mind that says the first phrase and the mind that says the third phrase seems to me you're calling both those ordinary minds. But they're different. They're different minds. Is that true? You mean, in the thing you said, the first and the third are different? Yeah. Is that what you're saying? Huh? No, they're not different. They're definitely, absolutely not different. I'm saying the mind that says those statements is different. Well, that's what he said. He said, when I first started, I saw mountains were mountains. Then later, I saw mountains weren't mountains. And now I see mountains are mountains again. Okay? The mind that says that is a different mind? Well, it's a different person, too. It's a fully realized person versus a less initiated meditator.

[76:37]

Okay? But the minds are precisely the same. Right? It's not a different mind. It's not a different mind. Not at all. But it's true. It's realization. He has no doubt at the end. At the end, he says, now I see I don't have to fix my mind up. I can be a human being and be saved. And if I can be saved, then other people can be saved. And I don't have to go around and fix people up. That's not the project. The project is not to go fix people up. The project is to wake people up. Because the nature of mind itself is light. And he saw that more at the end than at the beginning. It's true. But he saw more clearly than in the middle or in the beginning. He saw you do not have to touch anything. All you have to do is be intimate. And the way unfolds. However, we have to practice pretty sincerely

[77:40]

in order to be intimate with our experience. And you have to have tremendous faith to work with this. And not flinch from this. And not blame this on somebody else. Because you shouldn't blame this on somebody else. You should be grateful to everybody for helping you have this. Because this is all you can possibly use. And everybody is giving you this. But we don't want to do that. We want to blame somebody for this. And then maybe if we could blame somebody, then maybe they would feel bad. And then maybe that person and everybody else would give us a different this. And we could use that one better. Right? Of course. This is human nature. But still somehow we got to find a way to cut through this trap

[78:40]

and use this opportunity. And that's non-dual meditation. Okay, so now there's still a bit more in this case. You want to do more in this case next week? Yeah. There's more. More stuff. More non-dual encouragement. More encouragement to be yourself completely. And to encourage other people to do the same of all things. I really believe it works better that way. Although sometimes I can hardly believe I believe that. Especially when it applies to other people. Well, it would be... Well, let's put it this way. It would be somewhat lonely because some of the people would be kind of out of the game, right?

[79:42]

But it might not be entirely lonely because you might be able to have several people that you allowed to be sort of in the in-group of those who you don't wish were different. But the way I'm suggesting here includes everybody. And all your friends and students actually, you actually appreciate the way they are. Which is kind of neat. So I will restrain myself about how I feel about that. So if you can, you might look at those other cases 12 and 17. That might be somewhat helpful. And keep studying the commentary on Case 20. And we'll study Case 20 next week.

[80:29]

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