Are you ready for case 52? So, the Zen master, Saoshan, Saoshan, can I say that, Saoshan? Not cow. Not cow. C-A-O. It's Tsao. Tsao. Tsaoshan. So Tsaoshan asked Elder De. Is this really De? He said it. It means virtue. Elder De. So Tsaoshan, the great master Tsaoshan, As Elder De actually quoted, the Buddha's true body, true reality body is like space.

[01:01]

It manifests form in response to beings, like the moon in the water. That's the quote. How do you explain the principle of response? And Dada said, like a donkey looking in a well. Saushan said, you said quite a lot indeed, but you only said 80%. Dada said, what about you, teacher? Saushan said, like the well looking at the donkey. So the Buddha has sometimes taught us having three bodies.

[02:20]

Three bodies are, in Sanskrit, dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, nirmanakaya. Dharmakaya means, kaya means body. So dharma body, or body of truth, or body of reality, is one body. The other body is, actually in early Buddhism, they thought the Buddha had a dharma body, a reality body, and the nirmanakaya, the transformation body, or the form body, or even kind of like a phantom body. And then later, as Buddhism developed, they came forward to articulate a third body called the Sambhogakaya, which means the body of bliss, the body of orgasmic reward for practice.

[03:32]

So the reality body of Buddha has no marks. In reality, Buddha's body has no marks, no characteristics. You can't predicate Buddha in any way. This Buddha nature is all-pervasive. It's coextensive with the cosmos. But this body of truth can manifest in form in whatever way is helpful to beings. So being called, and right at that time of calling the reality body comes into some form so that beings can interact with a formless, markless, ungraspable, vast reality

[04:44]

the Buddha comes into form. That's the transformation body. The Buddha can be transformed. And appreciation for that, appreciation of that, of the fact that the Buddha is transformed, is the body of bliss. It's the, kind of like they call it, the It's the social club of bodhisattvas. It's the social club of enlightening beings. It's the world of those who trust the Buddha. It's the appreciation of the other two bodies.

[05:47]

So this case, in this case, the Zen teacher is talking about the vast, spacious, unmarked Buddha body, and quoting the scripture that says it can't It can't be marked. It's vast. It's like space. It doesn't do anything. But as soon as someone calls, as soon as someone needs anything, it responds. And its response takes an appropriate form. So then he asks this monk, what is the principle of the response? How does the response work? And so, the monk shows him. The monk demonstrates the reality body responding. And also, he shows him and explains at the same time.

[06:57]

He says, it's like a donkey looking into a well. It's like that. So you can work with that a little bit if you want to. Got a well. And a donkey comes over and looks in the well. So as soon as a donkey looks in the well, the well changes. It's got a donkey face in it. The well's got nothing in it. Maybe the moon's in it. But anyway, if we don't hear anything about what's in the well, and suddenly a donkey comes over and looks in, and suddenly the well responds.

[08:03]

And it responds in terms of the being that comes to look. The well doesn't have some idea like, okay, the next thing that comes is, I'm going to give it a horse. Or the next thing that comes, I'm going to give it a nice, you know, ray of sunshine, or the next thing that comes is going to be a smile, or doesn't know what's coming next. As soon as a being comes, it responds. However, it doesn't just respond in terms of reflecting the being, but it responds apropos of the welfare of the being. So not only does it reflect the being in a sense, it reflects the being in a way that will help the being. That sounds extra. Sounds extra.

[09:05]

You can see how it sounds extra. So how wouldn't it be extra? How would the reflection... be helpful without being extra. Well, if the well and the donkey are not really two, then the well, however the well responds, is an opportunity for the donkey. However the well responds is an opportunity for the donkey. Yeah, I mean, the well is not separate from the donkey so that the donkey is part of the response. Mm-hmm. So that However the well responds, it's along with the donkey and it's an opportunity for the donkey. Yeah, it's not just a reflection of the donkey.

[10:06]

It's that the well is reflecting the donkey. It's not just a picture of the donkey. It's that something that wasn't that way before changed in response to you. Now, we think sometimes of... I guess some people think donkeys are not very smart. Right? Some people think that. Like mules, I guess, are pretty smart. Mules are maybe something people think are smarter than horses or donkeys.

[11:08]

Do you get a mule from a horse and a donkey? So mules sometimes have some incredible abilities. But anyway, mules are also, in some ways, not so smart. Mules will kill themselves if you freak them. If you make certain sounds, mules will run off with their carriage and stuff. I've seen some mules do some really dumb things that really hurt the mules. and it wasn't really necessary. Anyway, donkeys are supposed to be dumber than mules. I understand. So anyway, they could have said a horse lifting the thing, but part of this is that the donkey is not very smart. The other thing is that the well is, you can't exactly say the well is dumb, but the well is mindless.

[12:12]

So you have a not very intelligent sentient being and a mindless water surface interacting here. And this is a picture of the response of the true body of Buddha to illustrate the response process of the true body of Buddha. So Sonia said, to say that it's helpful, isn't that something extra? To say that the water is thinking about helping the donkey, that's probably extra. Because the water doesn't think it's going to help the donkey. The water doesn't think, oh, I'm going to do the moon a favor now and give it a reflection. But that mindless response turns out to be helpful.

[13:19]

So I'm saying it's helpful because that is what's helpful, is to respond to beings without any idea about what's helpful to them. Now, to be that way, to be that way, may require for us to be that way, for us to participate in that, may require us to be compassionate. But in some sense, this aspect of Buddha, this reality body of Buddha, in some sense, the kind of compassion it is, is kind of mindless compassion. It's not a compassion that sees somebody else over there to help. However, it can appear as somebody who sees somebody over there to help, if that would be helpful.

[14:31]

If people need to see a face of somebody who can see their face and think of helping them, then it will change into that. But it itself does not think of somebody else. It also doesn't think of itself. It just reflects the whole universe. So in a sense, When you meet the world and the world reflects you back mindless, the way the world reflects you back mindlessly, in some sense, that's not the Dharmakaya, but that's the response of the Dharmakaya. So when you look at somebody's face and they reflect you back, in the mindless reflection of the person, the mindless reflection of the person is the response of the Dharmakaya.

[15:36]

But not the dharmakaya itself? It's not the dharmakaya itself, it's the response, it's the dharmakaya taking the form of this person. It's the manifestation of the dharmakaya? Mindless interaction? Yeah, it's the dharmakaya manifesting a form in response to your coming forth. But it doesn't think, oh, there's not some kind of thinker inside the dharmakaya which says, well, I will now reflect this person. Now, we as living beings, we come to meet the dharmakaya, and if we look to see where it is, it comes to meet us. And wherever we look, look in the face, it's there.

[16:41]

It's always there, always meeting us. But he didn't say, it's like a well. It's like a well. That's not the response. Response isn't a well, it's like a well when the donkey looks in it. That's how the Dharmakaya responds. Like an ass looking in the well. And then he says, that's pretty good, but you got 80%. He says, well, how about the rest? He says, it's like the well looking at the donkey. Is there cause and effect?

[18:24]

Or is it simultaneous? And can there be cause and effect simultaneously? And there can be causation that's simultaneous. And this is simultaneous causation. And in fact, in this realm, as it says in the Jewel Mirror Samadhi, that the request of the being and the response of the Buddha come up at the same time. So it's not like the well is sort of anticipating the donkey. As soon as the donkey is the face comes a little bit over the well, the well immediately responds. As soon as the donkey offers the nose, the well gives a nose back. Or, you know, the bottom of the nose, I guess. It's like, well and donkey have no relationship until the donkey puts the nose over the well.

[19:30]

And then as soon as the nose is over the well, the response is there. Now, the response is not the donkey, the response is the image of the donkey. Okay. Right, is that, pardon? Right, the question and answer happened at the same time. Yeah, uh-huh. So, as soon as the donkey's face comes in, there's the response. Well, now watch what he does. Now, the first guy says, it's the donkey looking at the well.

[20:37]

And he says, it's the well looking at the donkey. So, a little bit later it says, it's like, how does he put it in the comment? It says, it's like, It's like flowers falling consciously. It's like falling flowers consciously go along with the stream. And then turning it the other way, it's the flowing stream mindlessly carries the flowers. Okay, so you got the stream and flowers, right? Got a stream and the flowers. The flowers fall down on the stream and then go along with the stream. Okay? The other one is the stream mindlessly carries the flowers. One is the flowers fall into the stream and go at the stream. The other is the falling flowers are mindlessly carried by the stream. I'm just wondering about this choice of numbers. Oh, you mean Hawaii 80%?

[21:40]

80% is the standard number. Because it seems that they get balanced, and so why not 50%? Well, I think because basically you could have said 90%, but 90 means the same as 100. See, in China, you say 90%. In the West, we say 90%. That means up there pretty close, right? 90% is kind of like 99%, right? Way up there. But in Asia, if you say 90%, that means that's sort of a polite way of saying 100%. Because you wouldn't, it's kind of crude to go actually up to 100%, just talk about it that way. But 80% means really he did a lot. He did most of it by saying that. But he couldn't catch, what he couldn't catch was the dynamic on the other side. Got this part, but he didn't get this part. Didn't get the total unconsciousness

[22:42]

total mindlessness carrying the event. He got the event joining the mindlessness. So, he got most of it, but he, but somehow, Salsana turned it, turned it. Could you see it? These two different answers parallel my practice to the extent that the first answer is what practice looks like. It looks like us making an effort to be reflected or to see to see our reflection, whatever. Our practice is to look at emptiness, but then the realization that emptiness is what we are. We have to go and sit down on the cushion and make an effort, but then realization is seeing that the effort is already there, or that the realization is already there. You understand? The emptiness, I think... We are our emptiness. We are our emptiness. So the emptiness meets your practice?

[23:46]

If, like, the emptiness meeting your practice, if you think of it in the same following way. Well, it isn't, you know, that... I wouldn't equate the Dharma body of Buddha with emptiness. I wouldn't quite go that far, because... Why would I do that? Because it's still qualifying it. It's saying that it's empty. I don't think the dharma body of Buddha is emptiness. But it's some similarity in the sense that we sometimes think that the emptiness of things allows them to respond, allows things to be free. the Dharma body of Buddha actually is connected with the intention to, you know, benefit all beings.

[24:56]

And what's being proposed here is that the, is that there's a kind of like big time, what do you call it, there's a big Buddha, there's a big Buddha, there's a big is in a big awakeness that's kind of like just sitting everywhere, all over the place, ready to respond to us. And that thing is empty, too. That thing doesn't, that thing, the family core, arises. And the way the pentacle arises is that before somebody comes to call, it doesn't do anything. The Buddha nature doesn't offer anything before somebody asks. It's not a proselytizing type of beneficence. So it's really our intention.

[26:06]

Pardon? Does the donkey have Buddha nature? Well, you know, some people would say yes, but I think a fuller response would be that the whole being of the donkey is the Buddha nature. Your whole being is the Buddha nature. And the whole being of things is everywhere. Each thing has a whole being. And the whole being of each thing, the whole being of every being is the Buddha nature. It's not so much... There's always interaction, like between the donkey and the well and the leaves and the stream. There's always interaction too. So the whole being of everything includes that everything lacks some kind of independent existence because all things in their whole being and also in their partial being are interdependent. So our partial, limited being, whatever kind of kind-sized version we have, carry around of ourselves, that's dependently co-arises, that's interdependent, that's empty.

[27:18]

But also, our total being is also interdependent, but our total being is, so to speak, our Buddha nature. and everybody has a total being, and everybody has the Buddha nature. But if you hold to anything, if you have any attachments or fixed ideas, those attachments and fixed ideas can interrupt your Buddha nature. They effectively undermine your total being. Because you say, I don't want my total being, so total being says, okay, Fine. I'm not going to push this on you. There's probably something good about your resistance. Actually, your job's security for me. So then, then the Dharmakaya says, okay, I guess I got to like get heavy.

[28:24]

So then Dharmakaya, you know, gets heavy, gets, you know, comes down into a form. Since you won't appreciate your total being, you know, Buddha comes in, starts, you know, throwing a little weight around. Buddha's willing to do that if you're going to resist. If you're not going to appreciate your whole being, then Buddha will say, okay, these people need me to be this way and be that way, I'll be this way and be that way. But the determination of how, you know, what kind of this way or that way Buddha takes is just like this, just like... The Buddha doesn't say, okay, I'm going to come in and be a horse, I'm going to come in and be a man, I'm going to come in and be a nice guy, I'm going to come in and be a mean guy, I'm going to be a Zen master, I'm going to be a, you know, a duck. The Buddha responds in terms of the rigidity...

[29:28]

the attachments, the particular qualities of the being. Okay? Yes? This is assuming the well is out of water. I mean, what if the dog is just looking in the well and is just wondering, and the well is just there? Yeah. If you want to change the imagery, this one's got water and this is a water-filled well because this is one that reflects the moon in the water, it says there. Well, I know that's another one. Yeah, this... No, this is... Working with this particular one, it's got water in the well. But if you want to have a well that doesn't have water, we can work with that fine. But that would be a different metaphor. Well... If you want to change it... We're not talking about this story now, okay? We're talking about a different story. You say to me, you ask me, Leanne asks Reb, What about the, you know, you said the Dharmakaya, the Dharmakaya is like a well without any water in it.

[30:31]

No, but Rev, wait a minute. What if it's a well? What if it's okay if the well doesn't have water? It is okay if the well. Okay, but the metaphor of the moon and the water... Okay, it's a reflection. That's a metaphor. But what if the well and the donkey have a completely... There's just an unstated relationship there. What if there's an unstated relationship? Yeah, I mean... Like what? We can understand. You mean like what? Tell me what an unstated relationship between the donkey... The donkey is just wondering what's in the well. Or maybe the donkey... Also, maybe the donkey is like 4,000 miles away from the well. That's also another unstated relationship. Right. If you try to describe what this relationship is, isn't that sort of making it so... I mean, it's like you're learning what it has to be, rather than what all the wonder is, that dharmakaya could be, or... Well, it could be that, yes.

[31:39]

But see, Sasan actually asked him to explain. So maybe that is... He wasn't like looking, he wasn't like saying, you know, I want to go explain to Sasan, you know, this relationship of how the dharmakaya responds. He said, please explain to me. So he responded. But he didn't necessarily explain in terms that some of us might explain. He might have not been thinking or trying to explain it at all. he might have just been responding. Like one of the commentators said, if he'd asked me, I would have just come up and said, bowed, I would have come up, bowed and said yes and left. That's another response that you could have made. I think part of the, part of the thing is, is can you respond when asked to depict how this works, you know, how the Dharmakaya works. You've got this example of a mindless well and a not very smart donkey interacting. Now,

[32:40]

Can you interact in that kind of not very intelligent way yourself, or, you know, in a way that you don't get bogged down in your intellect? Well, okay, so say that's a reflection right here. Yeah. Okay. So perfect, it's like, that's perfect. Yeah, right. But I still... This is another one, this is I still. I'm still like, well... You're the well. Well, hi. So how is it going? It's wonderful. It's marvelous. It's really nice that you should care for me. So the Dhammakaya does care for all sentient beings. That's the funny thing about it. It's like a It's like a mindless well and it cares for everybody. Isn't that funny? I have a problem with you skipping to care.

[33:44]

Yeah, you do? Yeah. Well, care means if somebody's suffering, you bring them a care package. But maybe there's not... A well is mindless, it doesn't have the possibility... Yeah, so take away the care, okay? No care, just bring the care package. Okay. Okay. It's like that. So it's fine to say, it's fine to take away the care and you just bring the care package and you bring the care package exactly the one that fits them, not the one that you had in mind. You just happen to have this care package but they ask for a different one so you bring the other one. That's the way it responds. As I said, it's kind of a Well, it's kind of like saying the universe is beneficent to sentient beings. It's kind of saying the universe is going to bring to us what is helpful. Well, on the same token, couldn't you say that you could bring a hate package?

[34:47]

Because it's... The dharmakaya would deliver a hate package to you if it was helpful. That's exactly what he'll give you. And that's what some Zen stories are about. His nice monk goes to his nice Zen master and Zen master gives him hate package. And monk wakes up. Because that was just what was helpful. Conditions aren't always right to be woken up. Conditions are not always right to be woken up. And the monk's name is not mentioned there. All right. Dave and then Hamilton. a good way of imagining how this works is, I was reading this book, it was a science book for Lakers, where they were explaining how quantum physics, when they're trying to observe subatomic particles, they have a problem with it because the act of observing it changes how the particles are acting, so they can't... No, no, no, it doesn't change how the particles are acting.

[35:56]

It creates the phenomena of particles. There are no particles. There's no particles unless there's observation. When there's observation, there seems to be particles. When you take away the observation, you can't find any particles. That's what you meant, right. You knew that. You knew that. It's a phenomenon. They can't observe these things without changing them. So the act of observing them changes them, and that's how things are interconnected. Well, they're not really the thems before you observe. It's not thems. Before there's observing, it's not, it's not, it's more like, kind of like some process. It's not a them, it's a process. And as soon as you start looking at it, it turns into, it turns into chunks rather than processes. Take away the observation, you can't find any thems anymore, it goes back to process. But, I mean, the... It's not a them before... Yeah, and that's why modern physics is not mechanistic anymore.

[37:01]

Yeah, they're starting to see how all this ties in. I mean, athletic books are coming out tying science into, like, Buddhism and all that. Right. Oh, yeah, we're actually observing this happening. Right. Yeah. It's kind of like, you know... Is there anybody here named Alexander? No, that's too bad. Hamilton? I was hanging back to the whole... whether the whether the well is actually caring and uh i don't know it seems it seems to me like in a part is like the well you know could do something that's completely appropriate but if the being you know isn't you know isn't prepared with the well just you know in a way it doesn't i mean we'll just blow the being off and we'll you know chase after it you know i just kind of right it's like i mean so you're ready for so the being needs to be ready that's the job of the being so this class you know If you're ready, then this class will be useful to you, and so will the end of the class, and on the way home will be useful too.

[38:10]

But this class is talking about these stories are about beings who are ready. It's a whole thing to be ready. If you're not ready, then the conditions are not yet assembled for you to benefit from the universe, from the Dharmakaya. And to bring your readiness, to come forth with readiness, is you doing your part. And then the, hopefully, Dharmakaya then will ask you a question or something. Yes? I'm wondering about this 80% thing. So is the response like the well looking at the ass also 80%? Is that having said, or is that the full surface?

[39:11]

I don't think it's that. I don't think the first one was 80% and the next one was 100%. But rather that the first one was 80% and the second one completes the picture. The second one wasn't exactly 20%. It's just that there was still this little turning that could be done, which hadn't been done in the first. It's possible to present it in such a way that it can't be turned any further. There's no additional turning. But he left something out. Somehow he couldn't bring the turning in in his first statement. So the teacher got to put this little turn on it. But he didn't, he uses, it's like certain teachers, what he calls certain sculptors or potters, the master, all the master does is sign the things that the disciples make. They do the whole thing, and then he just goes, and then he gets credit for it. So then seeking and finding are the same.

[40:18]

Yeah, mm-hmm. That's sort of what you said last week. Exactly. It's not that you seek and then find. It's the two together. Yes? Are we not seeing the names anymore? Are we not seeing them anymore? Yeah, we're seeing them. Didn't you hear us say them? Let's do it again. Erewhon. Erewhon. Lena. Lena. Kamala. Kamala. Henry. Henry. Linda. Linda. Gabriela. Gabriela. Ola. Ola. Hamilton. Hamilton. Liz. Liz. Helen. Helen. Unbold.

[41:20]

Unbold. Pauline. Pauline. Michael. Michael. Mark. Mark. Maya. Maya. Anna. Anna. Sonia. Sonia. Cindy. Cindy. Klaus. Klaus. Nancy. Nancy. Misha. Misha. Aaron. Aaron. Aaron. Christina. Christina. Charlie. Charlie. Bert. Bert. Elena. Elena. Dave. Dave. Eileen. Eileen. I mean Irene. Irene. Greg. Greg. Homer. Homer. Elmer. [...] Jim. Jim. What's your name again? What?

[42:22]

Gabby. [...] Leanne. Leanne. Grace. Grace. Christian? Yeah. Christian. Galen. Galen. Galen. Rosie. Rosie. How's your finger? Yeah. How is it? How's your finger? Dropping. Dropping? Dropping. Daniel, Raja, Peter, Pat, John, Martha, Dave, Naomi, Kim, Rachel, Nancy. Nancy. Lee. Lee. Henry. Henry. Rain. Rain. Tommy. Tommy. Jeremy. Jeremy.

[43:24]

Stephen. Stephen. Suzanne. Suzanne. Did we say Roberta? No. Roberta. Paul. Paul. No, George. George. George. George, yeah, George. And Charlie. Charlie. Diana. Diana. And Bob. Bob. I forgot. Pepper. Pepper. Pepper. Austin. Austin. Liffen. Liffen. Teresa. Teresa. Is that it? Oh, no, front here. Jackie. Jackie. Debra. Debra. Amanda. Amanda. Martha. Martha. Jeanette. Jeanette. Dory. Dory. Just get over here. Okay. What's your name? Renee. Renee. Dory. Dory. Dory. Ah, she understands something.

[44:32]

Susan. Katie. Brad. Brad. Stuart. Stuart. Helen. Helen. The other one. I got two names. What about Christina? Yeah, Christina. Where is she? Where is she? Come on, she's here. She's here. Christina. Christina. Christina. Rep. Rep. Second week? You forgot her. What about second week? I did? Oh dear. It means... I don't know, what does it mean to me? It means you forgot it too.

[45:35]

You can't say that. Forgot itself. So, in a way, perhaps you think this dharmakaya is pretty useless. Yeah. Because it's just, you know, what is it? It's the universe, right? Right. So, you know, so what? Or, you know... Maybe you think, what is it? The nirmanakaya is more useful, because that's like... You know, Buddha you can see, somebody you can see that can help you, right? Maybe somebody helps you, you know, three or four times, and then you sort of get the idea that this is a helpful person, and they appreciate it.

[46:46]

But each time that they help you, it's really just Dharmakaya taking that form. Now, maybe several times in between, they helped you and didn't notice it. So what's helpful? Well, saying it's not helpful is naive in a way, because it's like a child understanding that they get food every day, but not understanding where it comes from. It's the essence that fills us. And not realizing it is like taking it for granted, because you're not one with it. Not what, Inc? Not, not... Realizing. Not realizing. That it's there. Yeah, is taking it for granted. But if you have that realization that you are whole, then you're respected and are. You're what? You're respected and are.

[47:47]

Yes. When you and Jeremy, when you said, well, conditions are always right for awakening, you said that's right. Uh-huh. And then later you spoke. I thought... I thought conditions were always right for awakening. Well, maybe you're right. She said she was thinking that maybe conditions are always right for awakening. In the same way that the conditions are beneficent. In the same way that the conditions are beneficent? Yeah, I guess I was equating conditions with... Well, that's fine, but there's another story, which is a story that if beings do not want to let go of their attachments, that the Buddha lets them have their attachments as long as they want them and doesn't rush them to let go of them.

[48:57]

If people want to hold fixed ideas about what's happening, the Buddha nature allows that. Buddha nature is not rushing you to get over your fixed opinions. And the total being of the fact that you, if you do or do not, if you do have some fixed nature, some fixed ideas, and some attachments, the wholeness of that is your Buddha nature, and you're allowed to have all those problems. So, in fact, the Buddha nature does allow the world to be a wreck, to be a mess, to be a trouble-filled place. The Buddha nature is allowing that, is not interfering with that. But the Buddha nature is allowing it and is the totality of what's happening, including these sad stories. It's not rushing things to be some other way.

[49:59]

but it's simultaneously holding up in the midst of the problems liberation and great happiness and the great happiness of cooperating with other beings in a way to offer them the same. And as human beings we have a chance to appreciate how we limit, crunch, twist and maim our life by our delusions and the actions based on those delusions, we have a chance to appreciate this and become free of that and appreciate this total being. This is all available to us and that's why it's another reason why Buddha has come forth with a lot of enthusiasm for human beings. I'm really happy to see human beings and tell them that they have a tremendous opportunity Yes?

[51:01]

Maybe we could think of every moment is right for awakening as sort of a variation on the delusion or the story of the future. We can always say, well, we don't know if this next moment is right for awakening. And we can think of not every moment is right for awakening as sort of a variation on the delusion of the story about the past. Oh, see, there was an awakening. So that proves that every moment isn't right. Does that make sense? You know, I won't say it didn't make sense, but it didn't quite grip me, so maybe you could say it again, pretty much the same way. I'll try to listen to it one more time. If you're saying every moment is right for awakening, you're making some statement about... Let's say you say that. Yeah. Okay. You're making a statement about this thing called the future, which is an idea. Why are you talking about the future if you say every moment is right? Why couldn't you be talking about right now? Well, is that... Because then you would say right now is right.

[52:08]

As in you'd be awakening. Right, well, right, yeah. How you can interpret it as... But if you use the word every, you're not talking about just right now. Okay, so maybe we shouldn't say every. Maybe we should say this moment is right for awakening. I think that sounds good. Okay. Is that okay, Martha? Okay. Now, do you have any problems with that, Dori? No. Good. So we're all set then. Yes? I have a question about readiness. In all the sutras I've read, for the most part... How many have you read? A few. Buffalo Cannon. Oh, okay. That's good. It seems like... they're ready and then something happens and then they're enlightened. Often that's the case. Yeah. Experientially for me it seems like some moments I'm ready and it's there and then some moments it's not and it's there and it's not and then sometimes even for maybe 20 minutes it's there and then it's not for a day or 20 minutes or whatever.

[53:17]

So it seems to have more that sort of temporality to it in my experience. Is there... but I don't... why... I don't understand why it's not described... Is there kind of a big bang and then it's not that way anymore or something? Yeah. The big bang would be when you have an experience, for example, of non-temporality. And then you remain in non-temporality? No, but you never forget it. And it would then change the way you see temporality from then on. Okay, so it would change the way you see temporality. You wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't really see it anymore. It would just be the habit to see it that way. Okay, it would be the habit to see it in this new way. Like people would say, you know, today is, what is it, today is Tuesday or Monday, Monday, right? You'd hear people say it's Monday. Oh, Monday.

[54:18]

Okay, so I'm following you, your sense of temporality shifts, and are there no longer moments of unconsciousness? You mean, are you mindful all the time from then on? Yes. No, not necessarily, probably not. But your relationship to when you're unmindful is different? What shifts in that? Your philosophy shifts. Your belief in your independent existence is permanently damaged. But you still may have various habits built up during the time when you believed in yourself as an independent person. Many habits were built up during those times, and those habits may be virtually unassailed immediately after changing your attitude. Oh, okay, that's interesting.

[55:21]

So those habits can kind of, and you kind of have to root out those habits? Right. Oh, okay. And mindlessness goes with believing in your independence. It's hard to believe in your independence and be mindful, because mindfulness keeps showing you that there's something funny with that. that you could have lots of mindlessness in your background and have a strong habit to be distracted, and you could keep being distracted even after having this awakening. However, you have a problem now, just generally speaking, going along with these old habits, they're more ridiculous than they were before. So they sort of stand up and ask you to be more mindful. So if you don't practice mindfulness after that, it's a little bit worse than before, a little bit more painful. So basically this forces you to become more and more mindful.

[56:21]

So at the end of the Buddhist path, you're mindful all the time. But there's a training period after you have your, what do you call it? What do you call it? Big bang. After the big bang, there's a training period of many years, where you kind of expose your habits built up during the time when you believed in yourself to this no longer believing in it. It's not like you have a new belief. Just drop the old one. These habits gradually drop away. And then you're operating with actions that are no longer actions, which are habits built up out of selfishness. the actions which are built up, like in this story, out of responding according to the circumstances. So then you're an adept, and you don't have to train yourself anymore, because you're coming out of the circumstances. Your actions are coming out of the circumstances with everybody, rather than coming from your habits of selfishness.

[57:28]

But that takes quite a few years of training after this undermining of your view, of your selfish view. And there can be further underminings of it. The undermining can be partial. Can I just ask one last question? Does anybody actually drop all the habits? Yeah. It is possible to drop all the habits. Okay, thank you. And then you're existing in the world, but you don't have to train yourself anymore. Your part has been trained. Then there's a life called beyond training, where you're walking around, And you're interacting with people, but you know you don't have to train yourself anymore. And it takes a long time to get to that point. Yes?

[58:30]

It says here, the original question is, in manifest form in response to beings, like the moon and the water, how do you explain the principle of response? And then he basically says the moon and the water again. And I'm kind of... He responded to exactly... exactly what the teacher said. In other words, I don't see the difference between, like, NASA looking in the well and the moon in the water. You don't see the difference? No. Well, that was a pretty good response then. He gave... It is different. I can see the difference. If you can't, then that shows there's a pretty good response because he's supposed to basically demonstrate the same thing. And he did. Not in any way that illuminates the question for me. Well, that's what this case is for, is for you to meditate on this until it illuminates you, because the donkey isn't a moon.

[59:38]

It's like a living being, kind of like us. Not very smart, but having some intellect to It can cause the problems. It's something to meditate on. Then turn it around the other way, which wasn't done in the previous example. That's why he didn't get the whole thing. The point is that the story has these two aspects. One is the thing comes and gets reflected, but also the reflection works on the thing. And that wasn't in the original quotation. So the total story maybe gives you the dynamic of meditating on the process of response. But before we go further, I just ask you to take a moment and think about whether you are in that realm now.

[60:40]

because we're going to end this class in 25 minutes, so you should actually enter this meditation before the class is over so you can practice it. What meditation? Maybe I'm just getting here now, but what meditation? The meditation on... You come to meet situations and you look at situations and you look at them. You can look in the well without seeing your reflection for a little while, too. You could look in the well and look at the side of the well. You wouldn't necessarily have to see yourself. But you can look in the well and see the side of the well. You can look in the well and see something down the bottom and not see that it's you. Or you can look in the well and see that it's you. You can also see that now it's you, but it's responding to you. Not only that, but it has its life and it's looking at you.

[61:46]

So, I'm asking you, have you entered that meditation now? I'd like to help you enter that meditation. I would like all of us to enter that meditation so that we enter it now and we leave the class in this state of this, in this meditation. It's a meditation. It's an awareness. I'd like you to become absorbed in this awareness, which we call, you know, we have these other names for it, jewel mirror awareness, self-fulfilling awareness. These are other names for what this is trying to set up. This is the awareness that the Buddhists set up for entering into enlightenment. And this imagery here is one example of the kind of imagery you can use to initiate yourself into this awareness. Do you have a feeling for how to do that?

[62:48]

Yes. Brad? I'm confused about that approach. Okay, just a second. What are you doing right now? Are you trying to enter it? or are you talking about something else? Let me ask one more question. The second question I was going to ask you is, do you want to enter it now, or do you want to talk about something else? Yeah, so... You see the difference already? Between talking about something else, which we've been doing a good share of our life, and entering into our life, which has this dynamic quality. And entering into this space, you're entering not only into the dynamic quality of your life, but you're entering into the enlightening quality of your life. And the enlightening quality of your life is not that there's some Buddha over there that you're going to meet, but that the Buddhas are encouraging you to enter into an awareness that they use to enter into enlightenment.

[64:04]

The Buddhas use this awareness. The Buddhas, you know, like the people Buddhas. And the Dharmakaya is working to help you in this awareness. So if you have some sense of not being able to do this, it would be helpful probably for you to say so, so that probably other people would appreciate that. Then it's not mindless when you're aware of it. The donkey is no longer mindless when you're meditating out this awareness. Okay, so right now, you still have a mind? Do you still have a mind? I don't understand. Okay. Is that metaphoric?

[65:09]

No, no, I'm just saying, I mean, I guess you do. I'm just sort of checking. Do you still have a mind? I think so. Okay, so I'm talking to you who has a mind, and I'm asking you who still has a mind, if you have entered into this... this realm of where you're looking at me, for example, and having a sense that you're looking into something that's reflecting you. Do you have that sense? Yes. You do? But is it mindless? It's not mindless. I'm aware of it. It's mindless. The part of me that's reflecting you, I'm not doing it. I'm not sitting over here going... I'm not sending you the reflection back on purpose. And I'm not even saying there is a reflection here. I'm just saying that part of your job is to be present with what's happening to you, see what's happening, and to notice that what's happening for you is a reflection of you in me.

[66:15]

And that's a mindless thing in me that's doing that for you. But also, this mindless thing is looking back at you. but not mindfully, not mindfully like thinkingly, but it is looking back at you. It has a life that reaches out to you and does this with you. And our job is to also be with our minds. So you've got to stay with your mind, and I stay with my mind. But not just be mindful, but also be present so that you're open to entering this awareness. It's not exactly an addition to mindfulness, It's just sort of opening the door to the interdependence that's all around mindfulness. It's all around you all the time, but the mindfulness is a place you take up your place. You take up your place and don't add or subtract anything to what's happening. And then see if you can notice this interaction between you and what you're looking at, how it's showing you something about yourself.

[67:18]

Every face that you see is showing you something about yourself. If I smile, that shows you something about yourself. If I frown, if I go to sleep, it shows you something about yourself. You like it, you don't like it, whatever. That's going on all the time. And this is this kind of initiating yourself into space is to initiate yourself into the principle of response of the dharmakaya. This is the principle of response of the dharma body of the Buddha. And there's some language here in the story which you can use if you wish.

[68:22]

to remind you of the awareness, but also you can play with the words as a reflection of your current understanding of what this is about. You don't have to play with the words, but these words are here, and these can be moved around by you depending on how you understand, depending on how you feel at the current moment. So the words are guides, but also they're tools. I mean, they're tools, but they're materials you can use to express your understanding Just like the first person said, show, and he made some words up and gave it back to the second one. The second one took the words of the first one and turned them a little bit. This is how they played. The story is not over. You can play with it more if you want to. But before you start playing with the words, first of all, use the words to help you get into the realm where the words are being generated. So, again, I probably... So, how are you doing, Jackie?

[69:31]

Good. Good. So, anybody else that has a feeling for, like, to sort of be the one who doesn't understand, so we can... Because some other people maybe don't get how to practice this. Yes. Well, for the rest of the night, I was feeling, like, kind of separate from most of the people in the class. And... Like I'm doing this practice, I'm myself. There's this self here trying to do this practice. And what I've been working on is in Zen Mind Beginners, like us, we decided to do an experiment to be physically upright in our spines. as often as we can think of it. But I feel like I've been sitting here trying to do that and it almost feels like it's creating this sense of separation and I feel really like thoughts come up in my mind about things I could say and that just kind of

[70:43]

It's like I don't feel... I think, ooh, do I want to say that? Don't I want to say that? It's like there's this other thing that's separate, like looking at it, trying to decide what to do. So that doesn't necessarily feel like the meditation. Well, but you can see it this way, that your effort to be with your posture is your mindfulness practice. It's kind of like taking up your place on your seat there, okay? Then you see something. What do you see? You see a sense of separateness. Okay? You see separateness. You sense separateness. That's reflecting something. It's telling you something. It's a gift that's coming to you. And you can also put it onto people. You can look at individual people and say, I feel separate from that person. but that's telling you something about yourself, about your understanding.

[71:51]

And that's coming to you partly because you're mindful of your posture. Now, you don't have to necessarily be concentrating on your posture to look at somebody and say, I feel separate, but usually people feel separate from each other and they don't notice, I feel separate from you. They don't feel that because it's painful to feel that When you feel separate from somebody, they may notice it and may hurt their feelings. Or they may turn against you or something. If you forget about the fact that you feel separate from them, then you may feel some distance from your anxiety about what are those beings who are separate from you going to do to you? If you take up your place, it may accentuate your sense of separateness. But then accentuating it, means the world reflecting back to you more your sense of your separateness.

[72:54]

Most people walk around all day long feeling separate and not saying it to themselves, not saying, I feel separate from Maya, I feel separate from Mark. Don't mention it. They're thinking that way, they're acting that way, they believe that, and they aren't saying it back to themselves. And that keeps the anxiety supposedly at bay. but actually it puts it behind you and drives you to respond, you know, and not look at people because you're afraid of what you'll see. That's also a mirror, but... So this is not so bad, actually, what you're saying, you see? It's good that you brought that up. Does that make sense to you, what I said? Yes, what I'm hearing you say is part of what I'm getting from what you're saying is part of the benefit of mindfulness practice is becoming aware, even consciously aware of what is happening. Yes, but also it initiates you into the space of the story, but the way the story comes out may not sound to you like the way the story is.

[74:03]

You may think, oh, if I'm practicing, I'll get into the story and I'll feel like everything's interpenetrating and I'm connected to everybody. But the first thing you may realize is that you don't feel connected to everybody. That's really where you're at. That's the self you are is a self that feels separate from people, that looks out there and sees aliens, you know, dangerous aliens. That's what you see, and we don't want to see that, so don't be mindful, and you might not see any aliens all day long. As soon as you come back, you feel like, oh my God. So you're feeling that you actually were kind of like all by yourself and all that, that's what you think. So now you get to stew in your own juices, which, you know, who wants to do that? Well, that's who Buddha comes to meet. This is the way Buddha's coming to you. Buddha's coming to say, you think this way.

[75:04]

So when Buddha sees a person suffering, Buddha comes up and says, what's happening? The person says, well, I feel isolated and lonely and frightened. Oh, this is what the person would tell the Buddha. He'd say, well, tell me more about it. He doesn't say, oh, no, no, you're not isolated. We're all on your side. We love you. No. Buddha does love you. That's why Buddha comes and asks you, how come you're feeling so miserable? And what's the problem? And if you say you feel isolated, Buddha doesn't say, no, you're not isolated. You're not. If the Buddha was talking to you, you're not isolated, but you think you are. And the more you talk to the Buddha, the more you feel isolated. You talk more to Buddha, you feel more isolated and more isolated and more isolated and more isolated. Not less, more, until you can't stand it anymore. And then somebody asks you a question. There are two people at once, actually. Is the talking back to yourself the mirror?

[76:09]

Like if Omar is the donkey, what is the water? Well, he had a sense of being isolated. That was the reflection. So the voice that talks to you back is the water. It's that awareness of self? Is that over... the image not the water is what's the water the water is or the well sorry the well the water in the well is is the kind of the the not you know just talking about that that's the non-interactive aspect of the dharmakaya okay when you have feel separate that's the reflection in the well okay But to complete it, you need to have the awareness of the well-looking path. Yeah. And if you could realize that these beings who you feel separate from you, that the separateness of the beings is talking to you. Not the being, not the person, not the people.

[77:11]

They're not talking to you. They're quiet. They're not saying anything. But the separateness you see in people is coming back at you. That's dharmakaya. Dharmakaya is helping you when it says to you, Separate. It's saying separate, and that's you that's saying separate to you. That's the Dharmakaya helping you. It's teaching you about yourself and liberating you from yourself. In other words, what's not you is teaching you what you are. What's not you is telling you that you think you're separate. Helping you get to become aware of that. Is that like a practice as well? His practice of sitting up right is like the well. Whatever practice you take him. Is the practice the well? I think he's the whole donkey. The practice is like walking up and looking in, isn't it? Yeah. I think so.

[78:11]

I think the practice is like walking up, looking in and having your eyes open. that's your job, is to be present, suddenly there'll be a well in front of you. And the well will tell you various things. It might say to you, it might say to you, that's you. It might look up there and say, it might say back to you, that's you. But in Omar's case, he looked and saw these other people and said it wasn't him. But when you look in people's faces and see yourself, then things have gone a step deeper. So first of all you see separateness, then you see in the separateness you see yourself. Isn't it always there? Like the way that I started... Isn't what always there? The well. The well's always there, yes. Because the way I started practicing it was I was sitting on the ground and I was...

[79:14]

I was thinking, okay, well, I'm here, and then the ground is here, too, and I was making that, and I was just starting with sensory things, like with the air, I was breathing the air, and the air was breathing me, but that's not not words, but yeah, so it has that kind of, So are there two practices here, the docking and doing the water, or am I just separating two things out that I shouldn't? Two practices of being the docking, being the water? Oh, well, it feels like there's two practices in this to me, and that is like you can practice being the docking, looking at the well, you can practice being the well, looking at the docking, or as I... I'm not going to say, no, no, no, don't do that. I'm just saying, I try to initiate yourself.

[80:17]

This is a dynamic here, okay? It's not two different practices. It's a dynamic, okay? Do you feel the dynamic right now, for example? Are you in this space now, this dynamic? Is that a question? I'm actually asking if you feel like you're in this realm of this meditation. No. Well, I feel it's kind of dualistic, that's why. I can get into it from one point or the other. So what point are you into it now? How are you into it? What's happening? Yeah, yes, no, I understand.

[81:21]

Okay, so... Okay. Yeah, all right. You can just blend it. So that makes... Does it seem practical for you to continue this for a while? Yeah. I'm asking you to continue this for a week, okay? See how much you can do this between now and next week. Just work on this. And if you feel like it's two practices, okay. I don't myself feel like it's two practices. No, you know, I get a sense it's not two practices. Yes? The donkey sees himself in the well immediately. He doesn't think the well is somebody else.

[82:26]

Do you see yourself in the well right now? I've just been noticing, as you've been doing this, that as scary as it is to see eyes or feel myself separate from them, it's even scarier to see myself in everyone. Do you see that now? Yeah. And that's really scary. What's scary about it? Yes. Say a little bit about what's scary about it, if you can. It's not being able to get away from myself, to see myself. And then to feel everybody's pain as my own is horrifying. It's easier to feel everybody's okay. So what do you think, what is your intention about this?

[83:33]

To keep seeing this. Keep seeing what? Myself. And can you also remember that it's coming back at you? This function is not just on your side, it's also coming forth to meet you. Can you remember that? That introduces another. It makes it richer. And so we have a few seconds left. Anything else? The Zen people, the Zen teachers, they find many different ways of basically introducing the same meditation.

[84:34]

This meditation is the way to enter, the way. But they have various ways of talking about it, various imageries. And as you see, it says in the introduction that, what is it, what kind of person? a wise person can understand by metaphors or analogies. This is a metaphor to help us enter into an actual meditation. Other metaphors have been given and can be given, but this is the metaphor of this of this text, and also then in the commentary, I mean in the verse, there's some more metaphors and some more stories and some more analogies. Like there's the one in there about, you know, Yun Yan says to Deng Xiaon, there's somebody who can answer any question you ask.

[85:42]

There's somebody who can answer any question. There's somebody who will answer every question, any question you ask. And then Dungsan says, well, how many books are in this person's library? And Yunyan says, not a single word. And Dungsan says, well, could I ask him a question? And he says, if you would ask, he wouldn't answer. You might ask, but he won't answer. He can answer any question, doesn't have any words. If you ask, he won't answer. Part of the reason why he won't answer, what's part of the reason why he won't answer? A word. Huh? A word. What? It's like the well, no words. It's like the well, how does that mean? Well, in being like the well, it's, there are no words in the well, it's just a reflection.

[86:45]

Also, when you ask, there's not an answer that comes later. We want to say, can I ask a question, what's happening, and then get an answer. There's not a later answer. That's the usual way we operate. This is an answer that comes up as soon as you ask, as soon as you care about this meditation, as soon as you want to do this meditation, you've already answered it. But you can't make that into an object, that answer. You can't make it an object because it's right there why you want to do it. You can't put it out there. You can't put it in front of you. It's in your heart when you want to do it. When you want to enter, the response is there. It's not later. That's your question and there's somebody who answers that question every time you ask, no matter what your question is, no matter what you bring forth, there's an answer. So part of what's going on here is you have to give up. The world of where you do stuff and get stuff. This is the world where you do stuff and you're met.

[87:48]

All the time you're met. You're always met. But you don't get to grab what you're given. How is it then that we very often don't see the answer or realize the answer when we ask the question? You cannot see it. You cannot see it. It is inconceivable, the answer. You cannot see it. You cannot grab it. You cannot grasp it. It is in your question. It is in what you bring. That is the response. It's not like you put your face in the mirror and you get a different face back. You get your own face. but we can't use that. So, we aren't interested in it, so we miss the actual process and switch over to the other process where we talk about our life. Then you can have that. That's our habit. Anyway, this is sleepy time.

[88:49]

I feel that I'm not sure you have been able to initiate yourself into this meditation. So our class is going to end now, so you're going to have to do it the rest of the night to get yourself into it, if you're going to get into it. And if you can get into it, then try to continue to do it as much as you can throughout the week. I'll be trying to do that with you. If I see you, I'll do that when I see you. That would be my effort to meet you that way. That's what I'd like to do But it's hard, because you have to really be present and then be ready for this kind of meeting. Whatever that thing is. All these different faces.

[89:51]

So please try. See what you can get into. See if you can get into it. This is the place where Buddhas enter. This is the place they enter. They all use the same way. Thank you. You're welcome.

[90:13]

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